Dang little buggers

BasilY · 07-03-08, 12:18 PM

Just spend 40 deck gun hits, 2 torp hits on a tramp steamer. While her companion a large merchant go down with 1 shot.

This is my second GWX career, I have gotten a handle on the larger ships (and warships as well). Most will go down with 1 hit (merchant with bow shot, even DDs go down with 1 hit almost anywhere and faster too). But the little merchants, tramp streamers, P/Cs coastal merchants, Yikes. They are tougher than destroyers (hack, even tougher than escort cariers). I rarely sink them with 1 torp and while I have deck gunned aquitania with 10-15 deck guns and less, the little merchants took as much if not more. With this kind of battle survivability, the admiralty might as well make them into warships.

A sloop took me 5 deck gun shots last patrol too, and I am using larger rounds of a type IX (first time I try a type IX seriously with mixed results)

Am I missing some trick shots?

Gorshkov · 07-03-08, 12:27 PM

People! Read GWX manual first and I hope you will not be puzzled by many fanciful things this mod introduces. This one above is not last one.

BasilY · 07-03-08, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

People! Read GWX manual first and I hope you will not be puzzled by many fanciful things this mod introduces. This one above is not last one.

I have download and read the GWX manual. And I do wait for ships to sink as much as possible. Sometimes it is not possible because its a convoy situation and/or you don't want to linger for hours near a striken ship close to enemy shores where an airplane can show up any time to investigate your handy work.

More importantly, don't you find it odd that small merchants survive attacks so much better than warships designed to combat submarines? Most DD's are either sunk or lost steering with one hit within minutes. I deckguned a flower class (my parascopes are out) in less time than a Passenger cargo. Flechters (similar tonage to a Passenger/cargo) regularly go down with one hit under 15 minutes. And you think it is perfectly normal for a small merchant to be able to maintain 7 knots and zipzag as well after one torp hit, and 40 deck guns blast it out its entire superstrcuture.

Gorshkov · 07-03-08, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BasilY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

People! Read GWX manual first and I hope you will not be puzzled by many fanciful things this mod introduces. This one above is not last one.

I have download and read the GWX manual. And I do wait for ships to sink as much as possible. Sometimes it is not possible because its a convoy situation and/or you don't want to linger for hours near a striken ship close to enemy shores where an airplane can show up any time to investigate your handy work.

More importantly, don't you find it odd that small merchants survive attacks so much better than warships designed to combat submarines? Most DD's are either sunk or lost steering with one hit within minutes. I deckguned a flower class (my parascopes are out) in less time than a Passenger cargo. Flechters (similar tonage to a Passenger/cargo) regularly go down with one hit under 15 minutes. And you think it is perfectly normal for a small merchant to be able to maintain 7 knots and zipzag as well after one torp hit, and 40 deck guns blast it out its entire superstrcuture.

Buddy, a few things:

1. Deck gun's efficiency is next to zero in GWX.
2. Sinking time is pure random variable regardless of ship's type.
3. Those merchant's deeds after torpedo hit are sci-fi of course.
4. In GWX 1.3 one of German destroyer types was unsinkable.
5. I was shelled by German coastal artillery before war began.
6. Many, many more such oddities...

If you are not happy, you should simply change supermod.

danlisa · 07-03-08, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

People! Read GWX manual first and I hope you will not be puzzled by many fanciful things this mod introduces. This one above is not last one.

&

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Buddy, a few things:

1. Deck gun's efficiency is next to zero in GWX.
2. Sinking time is pure random variable regardless of ship's type.
3. This merchant's deeds after torpedo hit are sci-fi of course.
4. In GWX 1.3 one of German destroyer types was unsinkable.
5. I was shelled by German coastal altillery before war began.
6. Many, many more such oddities...

If you are not happy, you should simply change supermod.

Oh man, you sound a lot like a former member of Subsim.:hmm:

Regardless, you don't know what you're talking about. Stop trolling.

Gorshkov · 07-03-08, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danlisa

Oh man, you sound a lot like a former member of Subsim.:hmm:

Regardless, you don't know what you're talking about. Stop trolling.

If you are not content with my and Basil's points, give us explanations. Otherwise go to the GWX thread and pray to your mod there.

Not all people on Subsim have to talk positively about GWX even under your empty accussations on trolling.

BasilY · 07-03-08, 01:36 PM

Don't get me wrong, GWX guys have done a wonderful job on most every issues. Here are the two points I am trying to make.

1. Small merchants should be designed to be more vulnerable than bigger, more valuable ships and warships, I don't mind spending 3 torps up front for that ceremic liner in the middle of a convoy. What bugs me is when a tramp steamer is harder to sink than a Fletcher class destroyer.

2. The faster ship sinking time option should mean something. Shadowing a wounded ship for hours near an enemy port really isn't a smart decision. (will a ship sink and be credited if you are not in the vincinity to witness it? If a tree falls in a forrest and no one is arround to see it, did it happen?) Since TC is limited to x8 or x32 with hostile ship arround, it is really time consuming to keep station around a wounded ship, even ther virtual crew got tired). I don't mean I want a entirely new damage model, Can't the time scale just be speed up? Said if it took 5 minutes to flood a compartment and the damage control team 5 minutes to fix something on a merchant ship, can't we just make it /5 to 1 minute each?

As to deck gun being useless in GWX, I sink Aquitania with 15 deck gun (larger targets are easier to hit consistantly, but even then) rounds on a Type VIIB. If deck gun is indeed useless, make it consistently so.

Gorshkov · 07-03-08, 01:46 PM

I am afraid "GWX guys" won't fulfill your wishes. They appear to have their own "SH3 philosophy" which is indisputable. Agree on it or not which means use GWX or not. That is all.

Look! Mr. Dansila called me a troll who didn't know "what is going on" only because I was amazed with your report about small merchant escaping in zig-zag pattern at 7 kts after torpedo hit. :rotfl:

Besides work on GWX is now over and "GWX team" has already switched to SH4 platform. I also ordered this game for 18 EUR to be able to constantly watch my favourite "GWX team's" glorious achieviements in the future.:rotfl:

predavolk · 07-03-08, 02:48 PM

Ignoring the b.s., here's some helpful bits:

1- It has been noted, often, that smaller ships are unrealistically tough. Especially with regards to torpedos. It's a bug that wasn't fixed with GWX, or created by it, or whatever.

2- You can still sink them with one torp, no problems, 70-80%+ of the time if you aim in the right spot. Bow shots are probably the most popular shot, and they are my choice. You induce a bow-down angle that drives the ship underwater using its own momentum. Many of the ships won't sink if you simply hit them in the middle of the ship.

3- I regularly sink smaller ships with the deckgun using 10-15 rounds. The key is, as the GWX and community manual state, you must hit BELOW the waterline. Wait for that explosion then splash. Hits above the waterline don't do too much, which is quite realistic. I've sunk small ships with 5 bow underwater deck gun shots.

So don't give up. The odd ship comes across as very tough to sink, which is, on average, realistic. Smaller ships are relatively too tough, but they are far enough from being unsinkable that you can still realistically engage them. You can search for a GWX 2.0 thread on this topic that will offer further opinions and suggestions. But honestly, bow shots and underwater shots should solve the majority of your small-ship problems.

Gorshkov · 07-03-08, 05:10 PM

@BasilY:

If you are really curious about many aspects of SH3 modding in interesting to you areas, please read NYGM 2.0 mod manual. It discusses in details many important issues about ship's sinking model, AI escort behavior and so on, not found in other mods manuals. I suppose such fresh look will be much more fruitful than getting many "helpful advices".

I am sure you will be glad!

Brag · 07-03-08, 07:21 PM

It beats me what are the people conmplaining about. My small shops go down with one tropedo as do must of the larger ships (GWX2.1)

msalama · 07-03-08, 11:03 PM

Hmmm... reporting the last two sinkings of mine. I'm playing a GWX 2.1 Black Sea career at 100% realism and it's autumn 1942 ATM:

1) Sunk a Chatham-type troop ship (6313 GRT). Fired 2 torps at her, both hit. The ship broke in half and sunk in seconds.
2) Sunk a small tanker (4101 GRT). Fired 1 torp that hit her amidships. She started to burn and list, and finally sunk some 4-5 hours later.

This just FYI.

Redshirt · 07-03-08, 11:53 PM

I regularly send the small buggers down with one good hit, I only spend two (sometimes 3) torpedo's on medium-large ships. Very rarely to get the luxury of hanging around to see them sink. But again I have no troubles with most of the small fry. With the exception of passenger/cargos lol those things normally take 2 shots to put down.

If you use magnetics its possible that what you thought was a hit was actually it exploding either very very close to the target seen it happen with magnetics with 90 degree angle on bow shots or just simply exploding early which happens fairly regularly - it might have still been close enough that it appeared to be a hit. Try using impact warheads instead if the shot is very close to 90 degrees.

There is a lot of possible explanations. With the deck gun unless your hitting the water line or highly explosive cargo then your often pissing into the wind with the thing. I tend to save it for wounded ships that have dropped out of a convoy weather permitting.

07-04-08, 12:08 AM

The GWX Team did not build all the units.
We also did not correct damage models on the added units.
If the original builder didn't fix them?
Blame him.

Over 200 ships?
(And the added units were community requested for the most part.)
If we were to adjust everyones stuff?
There would be no GWX 2.0 yet!!
Let alone 2.1

msalama · 07-04-08, 02:34 AM

RGT Privateer. And I personally never expected you to either, having read previous threads where this was discussed...

07-03-08, 12:18 PM	#1
BasilY Weps Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 359 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Dang little buggers Just spend 40 deck gun hits, 2 torp hits on a tramp steamer. While her companion a large merchant go down with 1 shot. This is my second GWX career, I have gotten a handle on the larger ships (and warships as well). Most will go down with 1 hit (merchant with bow shot, even DDs go down with 1 hit almost anywhere and faster too). But the little merchants, tramp streamers, P/Cs coastal merchants, Yikes. They are tougher than destroyers (hack, even tougher than escort cariers). I rarely sink them with 1 torp and while I have deck gunned aquitania with 10-15 deck guns and less, the little merchants took as much if not more. With this kind of battle survivability, the admiralty might as well make them into warships. A sloop took me 5 deck gun shots last patrol too, and I am using larger rounds of a type IX (first time I try a type IX seriously with mixed results) Am I missing some trick shots?

07-03-08, 01:46 PM	#8
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	I am afraid "GWX guys" won't fulfill your wishes. They appear to have their own "SH3 philosophy" which is indisputable. Agree on it or not which means use GWX or not. That is all. Look! Mr. Dansila called me a troll who didn't know "what is going on" only because I was amazed with your report about small merchant escaping in zig-zag pattern at 7 kts after torpedo hit. :rotfl: Besides work on GWX is now over and "GWX team" has already switched to SH4 platform. I also ordered this game for 18 EUR to be able to constantly watch my favourite "GWX team's" glorious achieviements in the future.:rotfl: Last edited by Gorshkov; 07-03-08 at 02:03 PM.

07-03-08, 05:10 PM	#10
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	@BasilY: If you are really curious about many aspects of SH3 modding in interesting to you areas, please read NYGM 2.0 mod manual. It discusses in details many important issues about ship's sinking model, AI escort behavior and so on, not found in other mods manuals. I suppose such fresh look will be much more fruitful than getting many "helpful advices". I am sure you will be glad! Last edited by Gorshkov; 07-03-08 at 05:26 PM.

07-03-08, 07:21 PM	#11
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	It beats me what are the people conmplaining about. My small shops go down with one tropedo as do must of the larger ships (GWX2.1) __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

07-03-08, 11:53 PM	#13
Redshirt Bosun Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 64 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I regularly send the small buggers down with one good hit, I only spend two (sometimes 3) torpedo's on medium-large ships. Very rarely to get the luxury of hanging around to see them sink. But again I have no troubles with most of the small fry. With the exception of passenger/cargos lol those things normally take 2 shots to put down. If you use magnetics its possible that what you thought was a hit was actually it exploding either very very close to the target seen it happen with magnetics with 90 degree angle on bow shots or just simply exploding early which happens fairly regularly - it might have still been close enough that it appeared to be a hit. Try using impact warheads instead if the shot is very close to 90 degrees. There is a lot of possible explanations. With the deck gun unless your hitting the water line or highly explosive cargo then your often pissing into the wind with the thing. I tend to save it for wounded ships that have dropped out of a convoy weather permitting. __________________ Reds under the bed!

07-03-08, 12:27 PM	#2
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	People! Read GWX manual first and I hope you will not be puzzled by many fanciful things this mod introduces. This one above is not last one.

07-03-08, 01:36 PM	#7
BasilY Weps Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 359 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Don't get me wrong, GWX guys have done a wonderful job on most every issues. Here are the two points I am trying to make. 1. Small merchants should be designed to be more vulnerable than bigger, more valuable ships and warships, I don't mind spending 3 torps up front for that ceremic liner in the middle of a convoy. What bugs me is when a tramp steamer is harder to sink than a Fletcher class destroyer. 2. The faster ship sinking time option should mean something. Shadowing a wounded ship for hours near an enemy port really isn't a smart decision. (will a ship sink and be credited if you are not in the vincinity to witness it? If a tree falls in a forrest and no one is arround to see it, did it happen?) Since TC is limited to x8 or x32 with hostile ship arround, it is really time consuming to keep station around a wounded ship, even ther virtual crew got tired). I don't mean I want a entirely new damage model, Can't the time scale just be speed up? Said if it took 5 minutes to flood a compartment and the damage control team 5 minutes to fix something on a merchant ship, can't we just make it /5 to 1 minute each? As to deck gun being useless in GWX, I sink Aquitania with 15 deck gun (larger targets are easier to hit consistantly, but even then) rounds on a Type VIIB. If deck gun is indeed useless, make it consistently so.

07-03-08, 02:48 PM	#9
predavolk Weps Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 369 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ignoring the b.s., here's some helpful bits: 1- It has been noted, often, that smaller ships are unrealistically tough. Especially with regards to torpedos. It's a bug that wasn't fixed with GWX, or created by it, or whatever. 2- You can still sink them with one torp, no problems, 70-80%+ of the time if you aim in the right spot. Bow shots are probably the most popular shot, and they are my choice. You induce a bow-down angle that drives the ship underwater using its own momentum. Many of the ships won't sink if you simply hit them in the middle of the ship. 3- I regularly sink smaller ships with the deckgun using 10-15 rounds. The key is, as the GWX and community manual state, you must hit BELOW the waterline. Wait for that explosion then splash. Hits above the waterline don't do too much, which is quite realistic. I've sunk small ships with 5 bow underwater deck gun shots. So don't give up. The odd ship comes across as very tough to sink, which is, on average, realistic. Smaller ships are relatively too tough, but they are far enough from being unsinkable that you can still realistically engage them. You can search for a GWX 2.0 thread on this topic that will offer further opinions and suggestions. But honestly, bow shots and underwater shots should solve the majority of your small-ship problems.

07-03-08, 11:03 PM	#12
msalama Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In an octopus's garden Posts: 565 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Hmmm... reporting the last two sinkings of mine. I'm playing a GWX 2.1 Black Sea career at 100% realism and it's autumn 1942 ATM: 1) Sunk a Chatham-type troop ship (6313 GRT). Fired 2 torps at her, both hit. The ship broke in half and sunk in seconds. 2) Sunk a small tanker (4101 GRT). Fired 1 torp that hit her amidships. She started to burn and list, and finally sunk some 4-5 hours later. This just FYI.

07-04-08, 12:08 AM	#14
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	The GWX Team did not build all the units. We also did not correct damage models on the added units. If the original builder didn't fix them? Blame him. Over 200 ships? (And the added units were community requested for the most part.) If we were to adjust everyones stuff? There would be no GWX 2.0 yet!! Let alone 2.1

07-04-08, 02:34 AM	#15
msalama Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In an octopus's garden Posts: 565 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	RGT Privateer. And I personally never expected you to either, having read previous threads where this was discussed...