Another reason why biofuels are the wrong way

Skybird · 04-11-08, 09:13 AM

Their ecological value is in doubt, at best, but by also having helped to let food prices explode, they lead to the question if filling up our car's tanks can justify to make it impossible for people inpoor nations to fill their stomach. It already leads to violence and turmoil in some countries right now.

Not to mention that food prices in our own nations also have drastically raised over the past 12 months - and new massive raises are already announced.

If your money is limited, you can feel it even in our rich Western nations that life has become - hm, let's say it became more difficult.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...nk.fooddrinks1

SUBMAN1 · 04-11-08, 09:26 AM

I agree. Get rid of these inefficient biofuel programs. Nice try, but they are a very poor way to gain energy anyway, in more ways than one.

-S

Trex · 04-11-08, 10:12 AM

Agreed that taking food to make fuel is a bad policy. That does not mean that the concept is wrong, just the execution.

I think this has been pretty well flogged to death in another thread; more arguments there.

bradclark1 · 04-11-08, 10:38 AM

Yeah corn and corn byproducts have been going up over here too. Pity because this is probably the only time farmers are actually making a profit nowadays.

Nightmare · 04-11-08, 11:21 AM

Since a lot of farmers are also switching their crop over from wheat to corn, it is also cause the price of wheat to rise as well. I'm telling you, between the cost in fuel for shipment of goods to the store and this, my grocery bill is quickly going thru the roof.

joea · 04-11-08, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Their ecological value is in doubt, at best, but by also having helped to let food prices explode, they lead to the question if filling up our car's tanks can justify to make it impossible for people inpoor nations to fill their stomach. It already leads to violence and turmoil in some countries right now.

Not to mention that food prices in our own nations also have drastically raised over the past 12 months - and new massive raises are already announced.

If your money is limited, you can feel it even in our rich Western nations that life has become - hm, let's say it became more difficult.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...nk.fooddrinks1

Did you even read my posts on the matter? There are second generation fuels coming that don't compete with food crops or require the land that they use, and also are net carbon negative and even increase soil fertility.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...627#post821627

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...702#post825702

But go ahead, don't read them I'm sure your minds are made up.

Skybird · 04-11-08, 03:23 PM

Joea,

no I have not read your links, for they appeared in a thread by Subman and I do skip these for the most, so I was not aware of your links and haven't seen them. However, after having flown over them, I wonder what they have to do with fuel-oriented plant farming taking away the expanses that else would be used for farming on food production. This is the spin and gropwing problem in Germany, and in many other countries and areas as well where agricultural expanses are avalable in limited quantities only, as far as I know. wether the processes your links describe change the overall carbon bilance, or not, I cannot judge, nor did I aim this thread at this issue. I was about the rivalry between farming for fuel, and farming for food, since this is not often mentioned.

But regarding the issue you touch - Germany has just abandoned its biofuel goals, after it became clear that multiple times as many cars as was estimated (several millions) cannot process them without taking damage. Originally, Germany's plans in this regard went farther than anyone else's. I a thread on german internal events and issues some days ago I linked to the first news indicating that it would be cancelled. And now, it is indeed.

joea · 04-12-08, 03:13 AM

Skybird, if you read them in detail you will see food and "fuel" cultivation are complimentary. I mean you can say the same about cotton, coffee and tea production, which has been harmful and competed with food especially in the 3rd world. The point is any organic biomass can be used, even human and animal excrement as wll as dead leaves and other leftover matter. The biochar byproduct also improves fertility of soil so it gives a boost to food production, as well a serving as a carbon sink. Indians in the Amazon created huge areas of fertile soil this way. I agree that scaling it up may have unknown consequences, but it is still something to be looked at IMO.

No question first generation biofuels are no solution.

Trex · 04-12-08, 09:35 AM

Too many people lose sight of the fact that there is no one, single, perfect solution to all our problems.

Properly planned, managed and executed, biofuels offer an advance, not a total solution. Because they are not the full solution does not mean that they are not worth using. But it has to be done properly.

Skybird · 04-12-08, 09:51 AM

Will give it some time reading. Note that what I refered to probably is what you would consider first generation biofuels: rape etc. On what you link me to now I cannot comment, I so far did not rperceive a public awareness or disucssion about these.

Stealth Hunter · 04-12-08, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightmare

Since a lot of farmers are also switching their crop over from wheat to corn, it is also cause the price of wheat to rise as well. I'm telling you, between the cost in fuel for shipment of goods to the store and this, my grocery bill is quickly going thru the roof.

Pace yourselves, kids. It might take a load of energy to plant your own garden...

The WosMan · 04-13-08, 01:05 AM

Nothing like burning your food supply for fuel. We know for a fact that since the government here instituted that stupid ethanol program that:

a) It requires more energy to convert the corn to ethanol then you get from burning ethanol

b) If your car isn't made for it, Ethanol will tear up your motor. It also can cause water buildup in the fuel lines which destroys the engine.

c) The pollution from all that fertilizer runoff is a serious problem to the water supply and the fish. The red tide has been getting worse and worse in the Gulf of Mexico thanks to all these farmers along the Mississippi dumping all that ammoniam nitrate on the ground

d) Farmers have foregone planting wheat and opted for corn which is partially reponsible for the high cost of food we are experiencing now. Any wheat based product is up in price. For the first time ever in history the US is importing wheat from foreign countries. That is not good.

e) Farmers have been cutting down forest land on property they own to grow more corn. I know about this because I hunt and I have been reading quite a bit lately of hunters running out of hunting lands in the midwest due to farmers this season just cutting down woods on their property that hunters usually get permission to hunt on.

The solution to the problem is not so hard. The US sits on the worlds second largest oil supply. Geologists just made a huge discovery in N. Dakota called the Bakken Formation that has at least 200 billion barrels of oil. Saudi Arabia estimates it has about 230 billion barrels of oil remaining in reserves to give you a comparison. Then there is the many billions of barrels locked away in shale throughout Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and other states out west.

The US also posesses the largest supply of the cleanest burning extremely low sulfur coal in Utah within the national park Grand Staircase Escalante. There is over 7 billion tons of this coal worth over $1 Trillion dollars that is all locked up thanks to Bill Clinton and a sweetheart deal he made with an Indonesian Conglomerate that happens to own the worlds second largest supply of this coal in Indonesia. The owners of this conglomerate, the Riady family made many significant contributions to Bill in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary is getting money from them now. Not only could this coal be used for energy generation, it could also be converted to natural gas or gasoline and diesel.

All this and we haven't built any refineries (or nuke plants for that matter) here in over 20 years. We have so many ways we could become completely independent of foreign energy but we just don't do it and it bothers me to no end.

joea · 04-13-08, 06:04 AM

You didn't read my links either Wosman. I wonder why I bother wasting my time here.

Skybird · 04-13-08, 07:47 PM

back on topic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7344892.stm

FIREWALL · 04-13-08, 08:10 PM

How many french fries do you have to cook to make a tank full of biofuel ?:p

04-11-08, 09:13 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Another reason why biofuels are the wrong way Their ecological value is in doubt, at best, but by also having helped to let food prices explode, they lead to the question if filling up our car's tanks can justify to make it impossible for people inpoor nations to fill their stomach. It already leads to violence and turmoil in some countries right now. Not to mention that food prices in our own nations also have drastically raised over the past 12 months - and new massive raises are already announced. If your money is limited, you can feel it even in our rich Western nations that life has become - hm, let's say it became more difficult. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...nk.fooddrinks1 __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

04-11-08, 09:26 AM	#2
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I agree. Get rid of these inefficient biofuel programs. Nice try, but they are a very poor way to gain energy anyway, in more ways than one. -S __________________

04-11-08, 10:38 AM	#4
bradclark1 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Connecticut, USA. Posts: 2,794 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Yeah corn and corn byproducts have been going up over here too. Pity because this is probably the only time farmers are actually making a profit nowadays. __________________

04-11-08, 03:23 PM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Joea, no I have not read your links, for they appeared in a thread by Subman and I do skip these for the most, so I was not aware of your links and haven't seen them. However, after having flown over them, I wonder what they have to do with fuel-oriented plant farming taking away the expanses that else would be used for farming on food production. This is the spin and gropwing problem in Germany, and in many other countries and areas as well where agricultural expanses are avalable in limited quantities only, as far as I know. wether the processes your links describe change the overall carbon bilance, or not, I cannot judge, nor did I aim this thread at this issue. I was about the rivalry between farming for fuel, and farming for food, since this is not often mentioned. But regarding the issue you touch - Germany has just abandoned its biofuel goals, after it became clear that multiple times as many cars as was estimated (several millions) cannot process them without taking damage. Originally, Germany's plans in this regard went farther than anyone else's. I a thread on german internal events and issues some days ago I linked to the first news indicating that it would be cancelled. And now, it is indeed. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

04-12-08, 09:51 AM	#10
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Will give it some time reading. Note that what I refered to probably is what you would consider first generation biofuels: rape etc. On what you link me to now I cannot comment, I so far did not rperceive a public awareness or disucssion about these. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

04-11-08, 10:12 AM	#3
Trex Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 262 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Agreed that taking food to make fuel is a bad policy. That does not mean that the concept is wrong, just the execution. I think this has been pretty well flogged to death in another thread; more arguments there.

04-11-08, 11:21 AM	#5
Nightmare Engineer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 210 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Since a lot of farmers are also switching their crop over from wheat to corn, it is also cause the price of wheat to rise as well. I'm telling you, between the cost in fuel for shipment of goods to the store and this, my grocery bill is quickly going thru the roof.

04-12-08, 03:13 AM	#8
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Skybird, if you read them in detail you will see food and "fuel" cultivation are complimentary. I mean you can say the same about cotton, coffee and tea production, which has been harmful and competed with food especially in the 3rd world. The point is any organic biomass can be used, even human and animal excrement as wll as dead leaves and other leftover matter. The biochar byproduct also improves fertility of soil so it gives a boost to food production, as well a serving as a carbon sink. Indians in the Amazon created huge areas of fertile soil this way. I agree that scaling it up may have unknown consequences, but it is still something to be looked at IMO. No question first generation biofuels are no solution.

04-12-08, 09:35 AM	#9
Trex Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 262 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Too many people lose sight of the fact that there is no one, single, perfect solution to all our problems. Properly planned, managed and executed, biofuels offer an advance, not a total solution. Because they are not the full solution does not mean that they are not worth using. But it has to be done properly.

04-13-08, 01:05 AM	#12
The WosMan Watch Officer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: OH Posts: 332 Downloads: 88 Uploads: 0	Nothing like burning your food supply for fuel. We know for a fact that since the government here instituted that stupid ethanol program that: a) It requires more energy to convert the corn to ethanol then you get from burning ethanol b) If your car isn't made for it, Ethanol will tear up your motor. It also can cause water buildup in the fuel lines which destroys the engine. c) The pollution from all that fertilizer runoff is a serious problem to the water supply and the fish. The red tide has been getting worse and worse in the Gulf of Mexico thanks to all these farmers along the Mississippi dumping all that ammoniam nitrate on the ground d) Farmers have foregone planting wheat and opted for corn which is partially reponsible for the high cost of food we are experiencing now. Any wheat based product is up in price. For the first time ever in history the US is importing wheat from foreign countries. That is not good. e) Farmers have been cutting down forest land on property they own to grow more corn. I know about this because I hunt and I have been reading quite a bit lately of hunters running out of hunting lands in the midwest due to farmers this season just cutting down woods on their property that hunters usually get permission to hunt on. The solution to the problem is not so hard. The US sits on the worlds second largest oil supply. Geologists just made a huge discovery in N. Dakota called the Bakken Formation that has at least 200 billion barrels of oil. Saudi Arabia estimates it has about 230 billion barrels of oil remaining in reserves to give you a comparison. Then there is the many billions of barrels locked away in shale throughout Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and other states out west. The US also posesses the largest supply of the cleanest burning extremely low sulfur coal in Utah within the national park Grand Staircase Escalante. There is over 7 billion tons of this coal worth over $1 Trillion dollars that is all locked up thanks to Bill Clinton and a sweetheart deal he made with an Indonesian Conglomerate that happens to own the worlds second largest supply of this coal in Indonesia. The owners of this conglomerate, the Riady family made many significant contributions to Bill in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary is getting money from them now. Not only could this coal be used for energy generation, it could also be converted to natural gas or gasoline and diesel. All this and we haven't built any refineries (or nuke plants for that matter) here in over 20 years. We have so many ways we could become completely independent of foreign energy but we just don't do it and it bothers me to no end.

04-13-08, 06:04 AM	#13
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	You didn't read my links either Wosman. I wonder why I bother wasting my time here.

04-13-08, 07:47 PM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	back on topic: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7344892.stm __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

04-13-08, 08:10 PM	#15
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	How many french fries do you have to cook to make a tank full of biofuel ?:p __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???