OT: How exactly did sub vs sub sinkings play out?

[Incubus]

In learning more about the submarine fleets of different navies, I was startled to find quite a few situations where one submarine sank another submarine. I found it rather surprising for a number of reasons:

1.) A Submarine, even a klunky big one, by its very nature has parallel advantages be it hunter or hunted. I would think it would
.....A.)Present a difficult target to hit
.....B.)Be a liability to attack, since a miss/premature explosion ruins your initative

2.) Almost all the subs sunk by other subs had the axis on the receiving end. (supposedly the HMS Venturer sank TWO U-boats during its career O_o ) Were there any U-boats/I-boats that sank allied subs? I'm kind of surprised about the U-boat losses by submarine particularly; I would think that the German navy's emphasis on U boats would give them a relatively bigger advantage against the allies (antisonar coatings, deep crush depths, coutnermeasures, acoustic torpedoes, and EXPERIENCE). My best guess is better intelligence. But even given superior intelligence, things still go back to #1, in that even in the ideal firing situation, the other boat has an equal chance of seeing/hearing the attacker, and trying to avoid the torpedo.

3.) I would think a torpedo would be MUCH easier to avoid if you were at the helm of a submarine, which can not only turn but DIVE, essentially doing many more things to minimize its profile.

4.) Were there any really protracted battles where both submarines were playing cat-and-mouse a la some Tom Clancy novel? My best guess is all the sub sinkings were essentially 'sucker punches'. Were submarines ballsy enough to engage each other on the surface?

[Incubus]

Just read an account of the Venturer duking it out against the U864. Seems both boats were aware of each other, and the Venturer nailed the U boat with unguided torpedoes, essentially hitting it blind Its like two guys having a knife fight in pitch darkness, with one guy chucking his knife at the other and having it go straight through his eye

For three hours Venturer stalked the 87-metre U864 as the German submarine zig- zagged to make herself a harder target. Then Launders gambled, deciding to fire all four of Venturer’s torpedoes even though this would leave her defenceless if they missed.
He calculated U864’s course as best he could, then fired at 17 second intervals. Each torpedo took more than two minutes to reach its target. The first three missed but the fourth broke U864 in half. There was a “loud, sharp explosion followed by breaking-up noises”, Launders wrote in the ship’s log at 12.14pm. Mr Plummer said that it sounded like someone crushing a box of matches.

What makes the whole situation more badass is that the skipper was only 25!

[tater]

For the most part the victim probably never saw it coming, or spotted the enemy too late. The reason the axis was on the recieving end is that their chatty doctrines did them in. They were constantly on the radio, so they were DFed, AND we read their codes. In the case of IJN boats, they were frequently tasked in such a way as to be at some lat/long at noon on a specific date. we put a sub there... BOOM.

[bookworm_020]

The Allies did loose subs to Axis subs. The brits lost a couple to german U-boat (the italians bagged one as well, I think) The American's lost two subs to other subs, U.S.S. Corvina and U.S.S. Bullhead

A british sub did sink another british sub! Ooops!

[Incubus]

That seems like a reasonable response, Tater.

Let's say Naval Intelligence wasn't a factor (since obviously it gaves the allies a tremendous advantage) and it was the technology/tactics of the nations' submarines and skippers that was decisive? For example:

US- US boats had torpedo issues up till '43, which puts them at a disadvantage. They could fire at the enemy sub, and have it detonate prematurely. If they had initially detected the sub first, the detonation would give away their presence. Then again, some US sub skippers were pretty gutsy (the whole premise behind the 'down the throat' shots for example). They also had radar on their boats earlier on and better, which would make acquiring a surfaced submarine (or even its periscope) easier. Later developments, though, don't seem to lend well to sub-vs sub combat, since they later were build for more surface engagements (more deck guns/AA)

KM- Their boats were smaller, dived quickly and could dive deep. A U-boat, even though not primarily designed for sub-vs-sub combat, seems like a good platform because of its underwater characteristics. They had pretty reliable torpedoes as well, having some glitches earlier on but at the same time having pretty good electric torpedoes (I know they were wakeless, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they were quieter as well :hmm: )

UK- I don't know that much about their boats. They had interesting surface gun arrangements, but other than that I don't know anything remarkable about them. They sank a number of U-boats, but like I mentioned in the beginning of this message outside of decrypts I wouldn't know anything special about their sub's tech or their skippers.

IJN- A mixed bag. Their subs were big, dived slowly and couldn't dive as deeply as those from other navies, putting them at a disadvantage. They did, however, have several classes of boats that had SCOUT PLANES which seems like it would give them an advantage in spotting an enemy sub first in our hypothetical sub vs sub scenario. They had Long Lance torpedoes, which had great range (I imagine that could theroetically translate into fast speeds at short ranges, more ideal in a sub vs sub knifefight) and Kaiten which would definitely be useful if they could be deployed against a submarine target.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Originally Posted by tater

For the most part the victim probably never saw it coming, or spotted the enemy too late. The reason the axis was on the recieving end is that their chatty doctrines did them in. They were constantly on the radio, so they were DFed, AND we read their codes. In the case of IJN boats, they were frequently tasked in such a way as to be at some lat/long at noon on a specific date. we put a sub there... BOOM.

What he said. Subs are so low off the waterline, it's hard at that angle to see an incoming torpedo assuming it's leaving a trail. If it's not, then you haven't really any chance.

[GerritJ9]

The RNethN lost "K.XVI" to a Japanese sub off Kuching in December 1941. After sinking the destroyer "Sagiri" she left the area, but unfortunately she ran right into the path of a submerged Japanese submarine while herself being surfaced in daylight. There were no survivors.

[AVGWarhawk]

A good read is the USS Batfish sinking 3 subs in 3 days. All at night and using radar. The Japanese subs radar equipment left odd images on the US sub radar scope that lead the Batfish into excellent firing position. It was a cat and mouse type stalking but the cat had better night time vision using the radar.

[sniperdoc]

Originally Posted by Incubus

What makes the whole situation more badass is that the skipper was only 25!

Interesting little excerpt...??? Someone mentioned experience earlier... but just by reading this article, I'm kind of dumbfounded... zig-zagging... we're talking 2 dimensional here...

I guess I would need the context of the situation, but this is what I'm getting out of that clip...

In order for either Captain to try to destroy the other, they stayed at periscope depth and watched each others periscopes... if either one surfaced, it'd have been a deck-gun battle, if either one was "at depth", it was like shooting a bb gun at a moving 1'x1' target in an auditorium while blind folded.

OR

The German boat was so damaged that it had no choice but to be surfaced. Any attempt to go to depth would cause the boat to sink and the American skipper didn't have any deck gun rounds.

I think this was poor judgement on either Captain, because they both put their crews at risk, and unfortunately Herr Kaleun lost out. I can't even imagine having such tunnel vision that the Captain of the German boat just forgot about diving...

I guess I'd love to know the whole story on that one...?

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

A good read is the USS Batfish sinking 3 subs in 3 days. All at night and using radar. The Japanese subs radar equipment left odd images on the US sub radar scope that lead the Batfish into excellent firing position. It was a cat and mouse type stalking but the cat had better night time vision using the radar.

... I think most played out just like that.

The attacking sub happens to pounce on another while it was cruising along oblivious on the surface. I don't think there were too many cases (if any) of two subs dueling with equal knowledge.

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by sniperdoc

I guess I'd love to know the whole story on that one...?

Google is your friend. Just google Venturer U864 and you will find all kinds of info.

Better yet, just go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Venturer_(P68)

[Captain_AJ]

Has Anyone of encountered a IJN Sub In the open waters . I often Sail On the surface . . I often wondred who is tracking me ? Areas Around the Marshalls {High Convoy Traffic } , Iam Hoping That iam not being Tracked . Guess Ill have too hope that I come across this In the sim ! It would certainally be a surprise If i Get Sunk by a IJN sub ! and also I great thread starter ..

[WernerSobe]

Regarding the atlantic theater... Dönitz used his subs in a different way. Germans wanted to starve out england by sinking its merchant fleet and stop the imports. Their first task was hunting merchants outside in open sea. The british submarine fleet was smaller and less advanced. Their tasks were mining german ports and seting up ambushes on known rutes. They did not hunt in open sea so much.

So german submarines often found themselves ambushed when leaving or entering the ports. It was less a random meeting, the british subs were often waiting there at periscope depth dead silent. Later in the war german subs were even forced to leave and enter the ports submerged due to that threat.

In Pacific theater US subs were not an underestimated threat to jap subs. Of course because of their advantage in all areas. The crews on jap subs were properly paranoid about being stalked by US subs. They knew they had better sensors and could easily ambush them so they always went submerged through narrow streats or were submarine action was suspected.

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by kimuraijn

Has Anyone of encountered a IJN Sub In the open waters . I often Sail On the surface . . I often wondred who is tracking me ? Areas Around the Marshalls {High Convoy Traffic } , Iam Hoping That iam not being Tracked . Guess Ill have too hope that I come across this In the sim ! It would certainally be a surprise If i Get Sunk by a IJN sub ! and also I great thread starter ..

That won't happen, because AI units don't fire torpedos, which is really sad.

[shoot-kill-win]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

A good read is the USS Batfish sinking 3 subs in 3 days. All at night and using radar. The Japanese subs radar equipment left odd images on the US sub radar scope that lead the Batfish into excellent firing position. It was a cat and mouse type stalking but the cat had better night time vision using the radar.

As AVG says 3 IJN subs in 3 days, however the last sub unexplained dove right before Batfish was going to make its attack, and stayed under for about an hour then came back up, it is unknown as to whether the IJN sub saw the Batfish since it dove, but the Batfish was right on it when it surfaced and got it.