Ok no way they heard me!

GoldenRivet · 08-18-07, 01:26 AM

Im not one to usually complain about this sort of thing but this is increadible.

There i am in my VIIC in 1945, i pull into a spot of the ocean where i think im going to be fairly safe from contacts to wait out the last 3 or 4 days of the war. i dove down to 130 meters, stopped engines and rigged for silent running to wait it out to the end of hostilities. after about a half a day in the game, while im stopped down deep, hydrophone contacts are now approaching... A small group of destroyers passes about 1500-2000m off my starboard side moving at approximately 15-20 knots parallel to my boat.

suddenly, while still at 130 meters, silent running and stopped... the pinging begins by one of the destroyers, im not sure whichone, But eventually all three were making hedge hog attacks and DC attacks on me. initially with serious accuracy!

i used decoys, and eventually dove to 230 meters creeping along at one knot using my usual evasive tactics. some of their depth charge attacks were very inacurate but still too close for comfort.

eventually they were attacking one of my decoys. i was slipping away and got about 3K meters from the location where they were attacking. I maintained one knot, checked the depth - holding steady at 230 meters. smooth sailing, no damage, 230 meters is looking good. heading was looking good, i felt confident of escaping these uber-destroyers.

suddenly. death screen. "U-boat destroyed by pressure"

i consider myself to be pretty good at understanding how sonar works and how GWX works and how to avoid detection... but i think it is pretty rediculous that a destroyer group that (A) has no previous knowlege of my existance or my position (B) is moving at a high rate of speed... can detect a U-boat that is (C) 130 meters depth (D) rigged for silent running (E) all stopped and (F) already has a low aspect ratio!!! - can detect my sub.

perhaps someone of more experience than myself can provide me with some insight as to how the GWX destroyers are capable of such feats :rotfl:

now...

i understand that they are always EITHER listening or Pinging, i just dont understand how they initially detected me in the first place.

ichso · 08-18-07, 01:57 AM

Perhaps they were just pinging around like the escorts of convoys do it ?
They can't do that at full speed, but if they were going at only 15kn it might be possible.

But still it would have been luck if you were not showing them your broad side.
Sounds strange alltogether.
I could imaginge that the SH3 engine is a little bit generic about that. That late in the war the DD's were such concious, experienced and well equiped that they had a high chance of detecting subs.

So they get your contact even if it seems unlogical, but it's perhaps a little randomized or cheated too.
This could simulate that u-boats were detected even if they didn't know why.

GoldenRivet · 08-18-07, 03:24 AM

guess this is another one for the Bernard file.

Little known facts about "The bernard file"

-BdU records division has an entire archive dedicated to "the Bernard file"

-Germany lost the second world war because of all of the resources and manpower that went into compiling, maintaining and producing ink, type writers and paper for the upkeep of the Bernard File.

-An entire library had to be constructed to contain the Bernard File by January of 1940. However the initial warehouse compound proved too small because the Bernard file had grown to include so many documents by the time the building was completed.

-Eventually an entire compound of archival warehouses were built for the purpose of containing the Bernard file.

-approximately 117,000 gallons of standard black ink was used every year by the Kriegsmarine to type case reports which had been contributed to the bernard file.

-15,270 Gestapo agents, undercover or otherwise have been listed as killed in the line of duty or missing while searching for or investigating the mysterious "Bernard" during the course of the entire war. Interestingly, each agent death was attributed to unexplainable circumstances.

-to this date, over 60 years after the closure of hostilities, the Berlin postal service STILL forwards a back log of Bernard file documents to the present day Bundestag.

-recently declassified documents from the bernard file indicate that a slip of paper was found near the bodies of Adolf and Eva in their Berlin bunker which contained only one small phrase... "E Tu Bernard"

-Prior to the German invasion of North Africa, the sahara desert was a fertile forrest, however all of the trees were harvested within a 9 month period so that paper production for the Bernard file could be sustained. It is rumored by military historians that the upkeep of the Bernard file's paper needs and Germany's Oil needs were the two main strategic reasons behind the North African invasion. Still today the lush sahara forrest is only sand.

- Every time you lick a stamp, you're consuming 1/10 of a calorie. It is for this reason that correspondence clerks responsible for the distribution of documents related to the Bernard file never had to eat, and in fact gained weight at a steady pace.

-The first three pages of Germany's Surrender to the allied powers were typed on the back of paper which was borrowed from the bernard file archives... at the time there were no clean sheets of paper remaining anywhere in all of Germany.

-recently declassified bernard file documents indicate that the final enigma transmissions from 111 U-boats were simply one word... "Bernard!!!"

papa_smurf · 08-18-07, 05:31 AM

Sounds like you were just very unlucky that time.

Or just blame it on Bernard - everyone else does.

Brag · 08-18-07, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa_smurf

Sounds like you were just very unlucky that time.

Or just blame it on Bernard - everyone else does.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Kpt. Lehmann · 08-18-07, 09:07 AM

@Goldenrivet:

At 130 meters deep and within 2000 meters radius of (1945) late war sonar... you are certainly at risk and within sonar range of possible detection.

Ships are apparently able to use active sonar in SH3 while they are at speeds over 15 kts. I would not say that this is typical of all ships at the moment, as I've never experienced this phenomenon during the months I adjusted the enemy ASW sensors. (I have not yet found ANY moddable setting that allows for cutting ASW sonar useage off at certain speeds.)

Having a low aspect ratio offers protection, but is not a guarantee... and is certainly not a bullet-proof vest.

Elite enemy units... and especially hunter-killer groups in SH3 are deadly to begin with... give them advanced ASW systems at the end of the war... and you don't even want to make contact with them.

In my experience elite units are much more "vigorous" at searching and pinning targets during patrol sweeps... AND work as a team to sink the player sub. Only one vessel needs to be in contact with you, and can "direct other units" as in real life.

At any rate, it would be pointless if hunter killer groups went out on patrol sweeps and did not use active sensors to search.

You also have a PM.

joegrundman · 08-18-07, 09:45 AM

And that PM contains the top secret submarine launched harpoon missile mod

GoldenRivet · 08-18-07, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

@Goldenrivet:

At 130 meters deep and within 2000 meters radius of (1945) late war sonar... you are certainly at risk and within sonar range of possible detection.

Ships are apparently able to use active sonar in SH3 while they are at speeds over 15 kts. I would not say that this is typical of all ships at the moment, as I've never experienced this phenomenon during the months I adjusted the enemy ASW sensors. (I have not yet found ANY moddable setting that allows for cutting ASW sonar useage off at certain speeds.)

Having a low aspect ratio offers protection, but is not a guarantee... and is certainly not a bullet-proof vest.

Elite enemy units... and especially hunter-killer groups in SH3 are deadly to begin with... give them advanced ASW systems at the end of the war... and you don't even want to make contact with them.

In my experience elite units are much more "vigorous" at searching and pinning targets during patrol sweeps... AND work as a team to sink the player sub. Only one vessel needs to be in contact with you, and can "direct other units" as in real life.

At any rate, it would be pointless if hunter killer groups went out on patrol sweeps and did not use active sensors to search.

You also have a PM.

i see, so they would have been pinging already to begin with, i just wouldnt be able to hear the pinging until i was within their pinging range?

that makes sense

thanks

Jimbuna · 08-18-07, 04:08 PM

I have responded Kaleun

Shelton · 08-18-07, 07:00 PM

yea i was going to say 130 meters thats quite shallow for 1945 technology - remember depth is your best friend!

GoldenRivet · 08-18-07, 08:16 PM

yeah... 130 is pretty shallow, but i was trying to hold real still. :rotfl:

I assumed (when you assume you make an ass of U and me) but i assumed that at all stopped and silent i could let this group pass by and survive a career i have been runing for a while... 3 or 4 days left!!!

anyhow

something Kapt. Lehmann pointed out that i didnt even consider was that they may have been banging away with their active sonar the whole time and not just all of the sudden.

i didnt mean to imply frustration with GWX or SH3... just frustration of being so close to the end and fuggin' it up on something like this and i hoped someone might have been able to explain what i could have done differently to evade this group- I knew better than to do it the way i did, but options can become quite limited in quite a hurry.

_Seth_ · 08-19-07, 02:09 AM

A little OT:
Bernard survived WWII, but due to his "achivements" in the Kriegsmarine, he was later transferred to the Luftwaffe... as a Sergeant in a Luftstalag....Stalag 13, if i remember correctly.....He also changed his last name to Schultz..

(When do we get the wikipeida-article about Bernard.....:rotfl

GoldenRivet · 08-19-07, 02:15 AM

DANG!

...i was this close to including something linking bernard to Hogans Heroes :rotfl:

Jaeger · 08-19-07, 06:02 AM

i observed the same uber DD capabilities. look at the thread "GWX uber AI demistified" by Ducimus. they can spot you, if your sub is in their active sonar range, which is about 2000 meter in late war. they can always detect you, silent running and full stop doesnt give advantages. if they would be pinging all the time, you should here the ping. but you cant here a ping until you are in active sonar range. if entered this range, they activate their sonar gear and try to find you. thats the game. try to stay more than 2000 meters away, when a group is passing, or you can be detected.

greetz, Jaeger

Kpt. Lehmann · 08-19-07, 08:53 AM

Well, just a thought here.

When using GWX in 1945... you really need to play as if they are trying to kill you.

In fact, play paranoid.

...and you need to use every trick in the book to shake 'em.

I do admit to having a bit of a chuckle remembering something me and some of my army buddies would do when we were bored...

We'd be in the middle of the desert wearing green... then we'd freeze suddenly and proclaim, "I'm camoflaged! You can't see me!"

1945 was something like that for U-boats.

08-18-07, 01:26 AM	#1
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	Ok no way they heard me! Im not one to usually complain about this sort of thing but this is increadible. There i am in my VIIC in 1945, i pull into a spot of the ocean where i think im going to be fairly safe from contacts to wait out the last 3 or 4 days of the war. i dove down to 130 meters, stopped engines and rigged for silent running to wait it out to the end of hostilities. after about a half a day in the game, while im stopped down deep, hydrophone contacts are now approaching... A small group of destroyers passes about 1500-2000m off my starboard side moving at approximately 15-20 knots parallel to my boat. suddenly, while still at 130 meters, silent running and stopped... the pinging begins by one of the destroyers, im not sure whichone, But eventually all three were making hedge hog attacks and DC attacks on me. initially with serious accuracy! i used decoys, and eventually dove to 230 meters creeping along at one knot using my usual evasive tactics. some of their depth charge attacks were very inacurate but still too close for comfort. eventually they were attacking one of my decoys. i was slipping away and got about 3K meters from the location where they were attacking. I maintained one knot, checked the depth - holding steady at 230 meters. smooth sailing, no damage, 230 meters is looking good. heading was looking good, i felt confident of escaping these uber-destroyers. suddenly. death screen. "U-boat destroyed by pressure" i consider myself to be pretty good at understanding how sonar works and how GWX works and how to avoid detection... but i think it is pretty rediculous that a destroyer group that (A) has no previous knowlege of my existance or my position (B) is moving at a high rate of speed... can detect a U-boat that is (C) 130 meters depth (D) rigged for silent running (E) all stopped and (F) already has a low aspect ratio!!! - can detect my sub. perhaps someone of more experience than myself can provide me with some insight as to how the GWX destroyers are capable of such feats :rotfl: now... i understand that they are always EITHER listening or Pinging, i just dont understand how they initially detected me in the first place. __________________

08-18-07, 01:57 AM	#2
ichso Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Germany's oldest city alive Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 57 Uploads: 0	Perhaps they were just pinging around like the escorts of convoys do it ? They can't do that at full speed, but if they were going at only 15kn it might be possible. But still it would have been luck if you were not showing them your broad side. Sounds strange alltogether. I could imaginge that the SH3 engine is a little bit generic about that. That late in the war the DD's were such concious, experienced and well equiped that they had a high chance of detecting subs. So they get your contact even if it seems unlogical, but it's perhaps a little randomized or cheated too. This could simulate that u-boats were detected even if they didn't know why. __________________ My Subskins: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164169

08-18-07, 03:24 AM	#3
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	guess this is another one for the Bernard file. Little known facts about "The bernard file" -BdU records division has an entire archive dedicated to "the Bernard file" -Germany lost the second world war because of all of the resources and manpower that went into compiling, maintaining and producing ink, type writers and paper for the upkeep of the Bernard File. -An entire library had to be constructed to contain the Bernard File by January of 1940. However the initial warehouse compound proved too small because the Bernard file had grown to include so many documents by the time the building was completed. -Eventually an entire compound of archival warehouses were built for the purpose of containing the Bernard file. -approximately 117,000 gallons of standard black ink was used every year by the Kriegsmarine to type case reports which had been contributed to the bernard file. -15,270 Gestapo agents, undercover or otherwise have been listed as killed in the line of duty or missing while searching for or investigating the mysterious "Bernard" during the course of the entire war. Interestingly, each agent death was attributed to unexplainable circumstances. -to this date, over 60 years after the closure of hostilities, the Berlin postal service STILL forwards a back log of Bernard file documents to the present day Bundestag. -recently declassified documents from the bernard file indicate that a slip of paper was found near the bodies of Adolf and Eva in their Berlin bunker which contained only one small phrase... "E Tu Bernard" -Prior to the German invasion of North Africa, the sahara desert was a fertile forrest, however all of the trees were harvested within a 9 month period so that paper production for the Bernard file could be sustained. It is rumored by military historians that the upkeep of the Bernard file's paper needs and Germany's Oil needs were the two main strategic reasons behind the North African invasion. Still today the lush sahara forrest is only sand. - Every time you lick a stamp, you're consuming 1/10 of a calorie. It is for this reason that correspondence clerks responsible for the distribution of documents related to the Bernard file never had to eat, and in fact gained weight at a steady pace. -The first three pages of Germany's Surrender to the allied powers were typed on the back of paper which was borrowed from the bernard file archives... at the time there were no clean sheets of paper remaining anywhere in all of Germany. -recently declassified bernard file documents indicate that the final enigma transmissions from 111 U-boats were simply one word... "Bernard!!!" __________________

08-18-07, 09:07 AM	#6
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,993 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	@Goldenrivet: At 130 meters deep and within 2000 meters radius of (1945) late war sonar... you are certainly at risk and within sonar range of possible detection. Ships are apparently able to use active sonar in SH3 while they are at speeds over 15 kts. I would not say that this is typical of all ships at the moment, as I've never experienced this phenomenon during the months I adjusted the enemy ASW sensors. (I have not yet found ANY moddable setting that allows for cutting ASW sonar useage off at certain speeds.) Having a low aspect ratio offers protection, but is not a guarantee... and is certainly not a bullet-proof vest. Elite enemy units... and especially hunter-killer groups in SH3 are deadly to begin with... give them advanced ASW systems at the end of the war... and you don't even want to make contact with them. In my experience elite units are much more "vigorous" at searching and pinning targets during patrol sweeps... AND work as a team to sink the player sub. Only one vessel needs to be in contact with you, and can "direct other units" as in real life. At any rate, it would be pointless if hunter killer groups went out on patrol sweeps and did not use active sensors to search. You also have a PM. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock Last edited by Kpt. Lehmann; 08-18-07 at 10:00 AM.

08-18-07, 09:45 AM	#7
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	And that PM contains the top secret submarine launched harpoon missile mod __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-18-07, 05:31 AM	#4
papa_smurf Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: High Peak, Derbyshire Posts: 2,851 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Sounds like you were just very unlucky that time. Or just blame it on Bernard - everyone else does.

08-18-07, 04:08 PM	#9
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I have responded Kaleun __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-18-07, 07:00 PM	#10
Shelton Planesman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 195 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	yea i was going to say 130 meters thats quite shallow for 1945 technology - remember depth is your best friend!

08-18-07, 08:16 PM	#11
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	yeah... 130 is pretty shallow, but i was trying to hold real still. :rotfl: I assumed (when you assume you make an ass of U and me) but i assumed that at all stopped and silent i could let this group pass by and survive a career i have been runing for a while... 3 or 4 days left!!! anyhow something Kapt. Lehmann pointed out that i didnt even consider was that they may have been banging away with their active sonar the whole time and not just all of the sudden. i didnt mean to imply frustration with GWX or SH3... just frustration of being so close to the end and fuggin' it up on something like this and i hoped someone might have been able to explain what i could have done differently to evade this group- I knew better than to do it the way i did, but options can become quite limited in quite a hurry. __________________

08-19-07, 02:09 AM	#12
_Seth_ Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In Tromsoe, @Tirpitz' final resting place.. Posts: 3,277 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	A little OT: Bernard survived WWII, but due to his "achivements" in the Kriegsmarine, he was later transferred to the Luftwaffe... as a Sergeant in a Luftstalag....Stalag 13, if i remember correctly.....He also changed his last name to Schultz.. (When do we get the wikipeida-article about Bernard.....:rotfl __________________

08-19-07, 02:15 AM	#13
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	DANG! ...i was this close to including something linking bernard to Hogans Heroes :rotfl: __________________

08-19-07, 06:02 AM	#14
Jaeger Chief Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 316 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	i observed the same uber DD capabilities. look at the thread "GWX uber AI demistified" by Ducimus. they can spot you, if your sub is in their active sonar range, which is about 2000 meter in late war. they can always detect you, silent running and full stop doesnt give advantages. if they would be pinging all the time, you should here the ping. but you cant here a ping until you are in active sonar range. if entered this range, they activate their sonar gear and try to find you. thats the game. try to stay more than 2000 meters away, when a group is passing, or you can be detected. greetz, Jaeger

08-19-07, 08:53 AM	#15
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,993 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Well, just a thought here. When using GWX in 1945... you really need to play as if they are trying to kill you. In fact, play paranoid. ...and you need to use every trick in the book to shake 'em. I do admit to having a bit of a chuckle remembering something me and some of my army buddies would do when we were bored... We'd be in the middle of the desert wearing green... then we'd freeze suddenly and proclaim, "I'm camoflaged! You can't see me!" 1945 was something like that for U-boats. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock