SH4 like backwards

Besides the complete mess of the US sub force planning and command that did not begin to clear up until late 43 when Charlie Lockwood was made vice admiral of SubPac, (to become known as Uncle Charlie Lockwood, and he could begin to correct some of the problems I point out in my posting about bases) the choice of picking the American sub force to create a fun but also REALISTIC war scenario seems an unlikely choice.



I am afraid the SH4 is going to be largely make-believe for the first part of the war. Every bit as make believe as my own Victory-Mod (where Germans win the war). To chose to build a WWII Pacific sub game around American subs and Japanese ASW (anti-submarine-warfare) is like making a game around school yard nerds having a pillow fight. Of course Americans and Europeans want to play US subs, but SH4 SHOULD have been built around Japanese subs and American ASW. Americans had learned a lot about ASW from WWI and WWII in the Atlantic. The Japanese subs used good torpedoes, powerful ones and they had a good sub force.

Up until 43 US subs didn’t do much because of torpedoes that not only had bad magnetic detonators but their impact detonators only worked when making a glancing angled hit!!! Tests done in the summer of 43 showed that when 10 Mark 14 torpedoes were dropped from a height to equal their normal water impact speed, onto hard surfaces that equaled ship hulls that only 3 detonated!!! Only when torpedoes were dropped so as to hit at an angle would they work. Wahoo’s skipper, Mush Morton launched 10 perfect hit torpedoes (all using impact detonators) during one mission and all 10 failed to detonate. Where as Donitz moved quickly to discover why his magnetic torpedoes were not working, and he even court-martialed 4 ordinance officers and had them jailed for the goof ups, the American navy swept the problem under the carpet and hid it for almost 2 years!

As for the Japanese ASW, it was so terrible for the first half of the war as to count as little better than WWI in nature. They built only a few dedicated anti-sub ships. They did not use the convoy system much and did not use big convoys until late 43. They depended mainly on zig-zag (and as American submariners would say: “For every ship saved by a fortuitous zig, another is lost by an unfortunate zag.” That Japanese did not get enough radar units until late and even then they were afraid to use them in ASW because they were afraid Americans would too easily locate them (Japanese were experts in detecting radio signals and just assumed that the Americans were too). The Japanese “ash-cans” (DCs) were as a rule set to detonate above 150 feet, as the Americans had been able to keep secret the deeper abilities of their sub force. Thus most American subs dodged depth charges simply by going to 200 to 250 feet. This was true until very late 43 when a big mouth congressman named May, revealed to reporters that the Japanese were missing our subs because they set their depth charges to explode too shallow.

Also American sub skippers reported that Japanese DDs would only unload a few depth charges and then rush back to the ships they were protecting. The Japanese actually thought that their few shots had sunk the sub and were reporting these as kills. THUS to mod this into a game one would have to set all Japanese DDs to novice or worse.

But wait it gets worse: the Japanese always considered ASW unworthy because it was defensive and not offensive! Thus they gave it almost no consideration until late 43 and early 44. Their depth charges in the early war were only 200 to 300 pounds! I am surprised the US didn’t buy some from the Japan to use in our training exercises!!!!

I doubt SH4 will take much of this into consideration, and so what we will get is a make-believe game fun for Americans and Europeans to play – but that’s about all. Japanese subs and American ASW would have made a lot more realism sense.

One more thing I doubt I see, but I should: American subs in friendly waters were often attacked by American ASW planes unless they were under DD escort. Actually several were lost this way. Something tells me I'll not see anything like this in SH4.

The upshot is I will likely make my own mod where the game does not start until early 44.

[CCIP]

To play devil's advocate:

Why simulate a force whose doctrine pretty much precluded a commerce war and which had little substantial success in practice?

At least the American sub force was overwhelmingly successful (as players surely will be), while the Japanese had failed to even consider subs for a proper role. A realistic Japanese sub campaign later in war would be more or less that of a submersible transport vessel with a secondary attack role.

I think to dismiss the efforts and sacrifices of the American submariners is also a bit mean. They may not have had it as hard as the Japanese or the Germans, but I think it would be extremely unfair to say they had it easy.

[hyperion2206]

To paraphrase your post one can say that a sub sim only makes fun if you gonna lose the war? I don't think so.
I agree that the US sub force was a mess at the beginning and that they had a huge advantage at the end of the war, but that doesn't mean this game won't be fun. Quite a lot of subs have been lost because auf Japanese ASW. Look at USS Perch, she was hunted down by the Japanese like a fox on an english fox hunt and that was '42. She was detected on March 1st but destroyed on March 3rd, that's what I call dedication!
I think we should give that game a chance and if the game is too difficult for you there'll surely be a modder who will decrease AI efficiency.:p

we will all be U-boat captains using American subs with none of the screwy American sub doctrines and lousy command system (no Donitz) and we will be using torpedoes likely only 1/3 as bad as real and going up against Japanese who will likely perform like Brits and Yank DDs and escorts. A Total fairy tale. And if we mod it to where it is realistic it will just be plain dull.

I wonder if there would be a way to mod the American subs into Empire subs and set the American DDs and escorts as the AI enemy......hmmmm


You know that may be easy. Since there are no boggymen flags, like the nazi flag that sends europeans into fits, likely the SH4 will allow subs to fly a flag FOR ONCE. So, even though most of Asia still hates the Japanese flag, those WILL be allowed, and so one could place Japanese flags on American subs and it could be do-able. Mod in new starting bases, put in all the heavy American shipping (I got some practice at that in my SH3 V-mod) and turn the game into something more true to history.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Wave Skipper

we will all be U-boat captains using American subs with none of the screwy American sub doctrines and lousy command system (no Donitz) and we will be using torpedoes likely only 1/3 as bad as real and going up against Japanese who will likely perform like Brits and Yank DDs and escorts. A Total fairy tale. And if we mod it to where it is realistic it will just be plain dull.

I wonder if there would be a way to mod the American subs into Empire subs and set the American DDs and escorts as the AI enemy......hmmmm

You sound so negative Mr Wave Skipper ... Don't you know this is a game of wits ...
history proves the Americans and it's allies won the war.

You make it sound like a dishonor to have served or died for ones country.

The US Navy made mistakes alright and men of courage paid for it ...
I will play this sub sim with pride knowing the outcome was worth it all.

Yes, I am fair to my beloved Americans. Listen – it was the hero American sub skippers who complained and fought about all the things I am speaking about here. It was actually only the very BEST sub skippers who did most of the fighting with the stupid hidebound authorities in Naval command. Why? Because when a new or regular sub skipper tried to bring up these issues they were relieved of command or EVEN THROWN OUT OF THE SUB SERVICE!!!! Only the guys with all the medals and 10 ships under their belt could complain and survive. It took these brave men almost 2 years to finally get tests. Actually some of them had done tests at Pearl but the Navy IGNORED them. These brave sub skippers are the ones who are actually the FATHERS of America’s modern submarine force.

In the 1920s Coolige’s words: “The business of America is business.” Was so true. America was never much of a military power prior to WWII. In the 30s, the ‘The Yard’ (Annapolis) was more of a rich boy’s club than a naval academy. Even in early WWII men who had a good rating with that club got commands of subs and were quickly promoted to admiral without ever having seen combat or sunk a ship – while many talented men who had, were passed over. America would have been even half bright had they sent for some of those unemployed German U-boat commanders who had served the Kaiser in WWI, to come and train America’s force. But of course such a concept was out of the question of peace time America. America’s military as a whole was a laughing stock during the 20s and 30s. The business of America was business, not war.

One reason the Japanese did not take ASW seriously was because their losses to American subs was so low in the first few years THEY SAW NO REASON TO TAKE IT SERIOUS.

The deficiencies I have been outlining were all details that the new breed of American naval warriors had to discover and fight for 2 years and more. All the deficiencies I mentioned are what America’s hero sub skipper stated themselves. Will someone then accuse these heros of being unfair? It was the hidebound creeps hosing up the system who were unfair. As a result, SH4 is likely going to be several orders less realistic than SH3. Unless that is a good modder can reverse the roles and make the game about Japanese subs against US escorts and DDs, who both had radar early and were glad to use it.

[TDK1044]

I can't think of a single Hollywood WWII submarine movie that was realistic, and yet I enjoy watching them over and over. That's the way to approach SH4. Just enjoy playing the game.

[Laffertytig]

the cynic in me says that SH3's retarded AI will fit this game perfectly. hope im wrong

I don't care if its about subs on Saturn's moons. It will be at the very least a game that dipicts what the US sub war SHOULD have been and the way men like Skipper O'Kane of the USS Tang would have wished it had been. The new breed of skippers knew what the Germans were up to and wanted to copy them. Its just that the US navy, like the British, was hidebound to large battle wagons and surface fleets. And the US Navy was always a play thing of congressmen and special interest fat cats who developed the weapons. Prior to WWII America was known mainly as a neutral power. It was like a Swiss nation with a big stick.

I'll buy SH4 before it hits the shelf. I am just reading up to be ready to make the mods to make it realistic. I think I only played one career in stock-SH3. All the rest were careers with mod upon mod. Without mods SH3 is fairly pathetic. In fact I am still working on what I feel is a real workable fatigue model for SH3. Everyone seems to have given up on that, but I think I have it licked.

If the SH4 torpedoes can be modded - I am sure they will - then one can up their dud rate to about 70% for the Mark 14s. If the Japanese DCs are too strong those can be modded downward in power and all the early Japanese escorts can be set to novice. One could even - perhaps - set the American torpedoes to where at the beginning of the war they can only be fired from just below periscope level (to recreate the American doctrine of using only sonar to aim torpedoes). I mean look what was done with Commander. its possible. And for me to make a Japanese SH4, with American targets should be no more difficult than making my make believe Victory Mod and German U-boat bases in the Pacific.

One can also mod the patrol zones to where the subs under MacArthur are forced to patrol off of the Islands where supplies were needed and where troops were needed. I don't think one could create the condition where American subs going out of Pearl in late 43 had their magnetic detonators deactivated, only to have to reactivate them the moment they moved into Australain waters under the hidebound comman of Admiral Christie in Perth. Dipicting the screwed up command structure would be a programmer level fix.

No doubt skin modders will quickly turn the US subs into Japanese subs. Who knows, maybe with a lot of work one could transport the SH3 U-boat models into SH4. Its the same engine.

[hyperion2206]

I don't get it Wave Skipper, if the game doesn't model torpedo failure or "the lousy command system" the game isn't realistic enough for you, but if the game is what you call "realistic" then it's too boring?
You want to play a Japanese commander with subs that only went down to 30 meters like RO-class subs? With a doctrine that does not allow you to sink merchants and therefore waiting for a warship to cross your path? That's what I would call a dull game.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Originally Posted by Wave Skipper

we will all be U-boat captains using American subs with none of the screwy American sub doctrines and lousy command system (no Donitz) and we will be using torpedoes likely only 1/3 as bad as real and going up against Japanese who will likely perform like Brits and Yank DDs and escorts. A Total fairy tale. And if we mod it to where it is realistic it will just be plain dull.

I wonder if there would be a way to mod the American subs into Empire subs and set the American DDs and escorts as the AI enemy......hmmmm


You know that may be easy. Since there are no boggymen flags, like the nazi flag that sends europeans into fits, likely the SH4 will allow subs to fly a flag FOR ONCE. So, even though most of Asia still hates the Japanese flag, those WILL be allowed, and so one could place Japanese flags on American subs and it could be do-able. Mod in new starting bases, put in all the heavy American shipping (I got some practice at that in my SH3 V-mod) and turn the game into something more true to history.

I think you'll find it's just the German laws that preclude swastikas in games. We beat them 60 years ago, and we're still having to put up with them

[Nightmare]

As the war progressed the Japanese started routing their shipping to hug the coastlines (source: “Clear the Bridge” by Richard O’Kane). This put US submarines in the position to have to go into shallow waters to have any chances of hitting anything. Everybody knows that a submarine in shallow water can quickly become a dead submarine. The Pacific may be the deepest ocean, but a lot of it is relatively shallow. USS Tang only sits in 180 feet of water in the Formosa Strait.

[Subnuts]

Man, I though the original post was gonna be a joke of some sort.

"Hey, why did the Japanese lose the war?"

"I don't know, why?"

"Because their ASW forces were so poorly trained our submarines sailed to Japan backwards, and we told them we were leaving!" :rotfl:

[Zero Niner]

Originally Posted by Nightmare

As the war progressed the Japanese started routing their shipping to hug the coastlines (source: “Clear the Bridge” by Richard O’Kane). This put US submarines in the position to have to go into shallow waters to have any chances of hitting anything. Everybody knows that a submarine in shallow water can quickly become a dead submarine. The Pacific may be the deepest ocean, but a lot of it is relatively shallow. USS Tang only sits in 180 feet of water in the Formosa Strait.

That's true, according to what I read in "Red Scorpion", which dealt with the war patrols of the USS Rasher. The author's father served aboard that boat from construction & commissioning right up to the end of the war.
In her first few war patrols she was assigned to patrol the Borneo/Sulawesi/Celebes area. The skipper found that many ships would hug the coast as close as they could, and find shelter (if any could be found) in a harbour during the night.

[Iron Budokan]

1. Yes, the game will be fun.

2. No, the game won't be absolutely 100% historically accurate.

3. Yes, modders will eventually work to bring different levels of enjoyment to the game from all perspectives (just like they did in SHIII).

4. Yes, the game will be fun.