SH4 like backwards
 

Besides the complete mess of the US sub force planning and command that did not begin to clear up until late 43 when Charlie Lockwood was made vice admiral of SubPac, (to become known as Uncle Charlie Lockwood, and he could begin to correct some of the problems I point out in my posting about bases) the choice of picking the American sub force to create a fun but also REALISTIC war scenario seems an unlikely choice.



I am afraid the SH4 is going to be largely make-believe for the first part of the war. Every bit as make believe as my own Victory-Mod (where Germans win the war). To chose to build a WWII Pacific sub game around American subs and Japanese ASW (anti-submarine-warfare) is like making a game around school yard nerds having a pillow fight. Of course Americans and Europeans want to play US subs, but SH4 SHOULD have been built around Japanese subs and American ASW. Americans had learned a lot about ASW from WWI and WWII in the Atlantic. The Japanese subs used good torpedoes, powerful ones and they had a good sub force.

Up until 43 US subs didn’t do much because of torpedoes that not only had bad magnetic detonators but their impact detonators only worked when making a glancing angled hit!!! Tests done in the summer of 43 showed that when 10 Mark 14 torpedoes were dropped from a height to equal their normal water impact speed, onto hard surfaces that equaled ship hulls that only 3 detonated!!! Only when torpedoes were dropped so as to hit at an angle would they work. Wahoo’s skipper, Mush Morton launched 10 perfect hit torpedoes (all using impact detonators) during one mission and all 10 failed to detonate. Where as Donitz moved quickly to discover why his magnetic torpedoes were not working, and he even court-martialed 4 ordinance officers and had them jailed for the goof ups, the American navy swept the problem under the carpet and hid it for almost 2 years!

As for the Japanese ASW, it was so terrible for the first half of the war as to count as little better than WWI in nature. They built only a few dedicated anti-sub ships. They did not use the convoy system much and did not use big convoys until late 43. They depended mainly on zig-zag (and as American submariners would say: “For every ship saved by a fortuitous zig, another is lost by an unfortunate zag.” That Japanese did not get enough radar units until late and even then they were afraid to use them in ASW because they were afraid Americans would too easily locate them (Japanese were experts in detecting radio signals and just assumed that the Americans were too). The Japanese “ash-cans” (DCs) were as a rule set to detonate above 150 feet, as the Americans had been able to keep secret the deeper abilities of their sub force. Thus most American subs dodged depth charges simply by going to 200 to 250 feet. This was true until very late 43 when a big mouth congressman named May, revealed to reporters that the Japanese were missing our subs because they set their depth charges to explode too shallow.

Also American sub skippers reported that Japanese DDs would only unload a few depth charges and then rush back to the ships they were protecting. The Japanese actually thought that their few shots had sunk the sub and were reporting these as kills. THUS to mod this into a game one would have to set all Japanese DDs to novice or worse.

But wait it gets worse: the Japanese always considered ASW unworthy because it was defensive and not offensive! Thus they gave it almost no consideration until late 43 and early 44. Their depth charges in the early war were only 200 to 300 pounds! I am surprised the US didn’t buy some from the Japan to use in our training exercises!!!!

I doubt SH4 will take much of this into consideration, and so what we will get is a make-believe game fun for Americans and Europeans to play – but that’s about all. Japanese subs and American ASW would have made a lot more realism sense.

One more thing I doubt I see, but I should: American subs in friendly waters were often attacked by American ASW planes unless they were under DD escort. Actually several were lost this way. Something tells me I'll not see anything like this in SH4.

The upshot is I will likely make my own mod where the game does not start until early 44.

To play devil's advocate:

Why simulate a force whose doctrine pretty much precluded a commerce war and which had little substantial success in practice?

At least the American sub force was overwhelmingly successful (as players surely will be), while the Japanese had failed to even consider subs for a proper role. A realistic Japanese sub campaign later in war would be more or less that of a submersible transport vessel with a secondary attack role.

I think to dismiss the efforts and sacrifices of the American submariners is also a bit mean. They may not have had it as hard as the Japanese or the Germans, but I think it would be extremely unfair to say they had it easy.

To paraphrase your post one can say that a sub sim only makes fun if you gonna lose the war? I don't think so.:roll:
I agree that the US sub force was a mess at the beginning and that they had a huge advantage at the end of the war, but that doesn't mean this game won't be fun. Quite a lot of subs have been lost because auf Japanese ASW. Look at USS Perch, she was hunted down by the Japanese like a fox on an english fox hunt and that was '42. She was detected on March 1st but destroyed on March 3rd, that's what I call dedication!
I think we should give that game a chance and if the game is too difficult for you there'll surely be a modder who will decrease AI efficiency.:p

thus we will all be playing one of my V-mods
 

we will all be U-boat captains using American subs with none of the screwy American sub doctrines and lousy command system (no Donitz) and we will be using torpedoes likely only 1/3 as bad as real and going up against Japanese who will likely perform like Brits and Yank DDs and escorts. A Total fairy tale. And if we mod it to where it is realistic it will just be plain dull.

I wonder if there would be a way to mod the American subs into Empire subs and set the American DDs and escorts as the AI enemy......hmmmm


You know that may be easy. Since there are no boggymen flags, like the nazi flag that sends europeans into fits, likely the SH4 will allow subs to fly a flag FOR ONCE. So, even though most of Asia still hates the Japanese flag, those WILL be allowed, and so one could place Japanese flags on American subs and it could be do-able. Mod in new starting bases, put in all the heavy American shipping (I got some practice at that in my SH3 V-mod) and turn the game into something more true to history.

You sound so negative Mr Wave Skipper ... Don't you know this is a game of wits ...
history proves the Americans and it's allies won the :damn: war.

You make it sound like a dishonor to have served or died for ones country.

The US Navy made mistakes alright and men of courage paid for it ...
I will play this sub sim with pride knowing the outcome was worth it all.

You Guys Are Accusing America's Heros
 

Yes, I am fair to my beloved Americans. Listen – it was the hero American sub skippers who complained and fought about all the things I am speaking about here. It was actually only the very BEST sub skippers who did most of the fighting with the stupid hidebound authorities in Naval command. Why? Because when a new or regular sub skipper tried to bring up these issues they were relieved of command or EVEN THROWN OUT OF THE SUB SERVICE!!!! Only the guys with all the medals and 10 ships under their belt could complain and survive. It took these brave men almost 2 years to finally get tests. Actually some of them had done tests at Pearl but the Navy IGNORED them. These brave sub skippers are the ones who are actually the FATHERS of America’s modern submarine force.

In the 1920s Coolige’s words: “The business of America is business.” Was so true. America was never much of a military power prior to WWII. In the 30s, the ‘The Yard’ (Annapolis) was more of a rich boy’s club than a naval academy. Even in early WWII men who had a good rating with that club got commands of subs and were quickly promoted to admiral without ever having seen combat or sunk a ship – while many talented men who had, were passed over. America would have been even half bright had they sent for some of those unemployed German U-boat commanders who had served the Kaiser in WWI, to come and train America’s force. But of course such a concept was out of the question of peace time America. America’s military as a whole was a laughing stock during the 20s and 30s. The business of America was business, not war.

One reason the Japanese did not take ASW seriously was because their losses to American subs was so low in the first few years THEY SAW NO REASON TO TAKE IT SERIOUS.

The deficiencies I have been outlining were all details that the new breed of American naval warriors had to discover and fight for 2 years and more. All the deficiencies I mentioned are what America’s hero sub skipper stated themselves. Will someone then accuse these heros of being unfair? It was the hidebound creeps hosing up the system who were unfair. As a result, SH4 is likely going to be several orders less realistic than SH3. Unless that is a good modder can reverse the roles and make the game about Japanese subs against US escorts and DDs, who both had radar early and were glad to use it.

I can't think of a single Hollywood WWII submarine movie that was realistic, and yet I enjoy watching them over and over. That's the way to approach SH4. Just enjoy playing the game. :D

the cynic in me says that SH3's retarded AI will fit this game perfectly. hope im wrong

Well the game will be fun
 

I don't care if its about subs on Saturn's moons. It will be at the very least a game that dipicts what the US sub war SHOULD have been and the way men like Skipper O'Kane of the USS Tang would have wished it had been. The new breed of skippers knew what the Germans were up to and wanted to copy them. Its just that the US navy, like the British, was hidebound to large battle wagons and surface fleets. And the US Navy was always a play thing of congressmen and special interest fat cats who developed the weapons. Prior to WWII America was known mainly as a neutral power. It was like a Swiss nation with a big stick.

I'll buy SH4 before it hits the shelf. I am just reading up to be ready to make the mods to make it realistic. I think I only played one career in stock-SH3. All the rest were careers with mod upon mod. Without mods SH3 is fairly pathetic. In fact I am still working on what I feel is a real workable fatigue model for SH3. Everyone seems to have given up on that, but I think I have it licked.

If the SH4 torpedoes can be modded - I am sure they will - then one can up their dud rate to about 70% for the Mark 14s. If the Japanese DCs are too strong those can be modded downward in power and all the early Japanese escorts can be set to novice. One could even - perhaps - set the American torpedoes to where at the beginning of the war they can only be fired from just below periscope level (to recreate the American doctrine of using only sonar to aim torpedoes). I mean look what was done with Commander. its possible. And for me to make a Japanese SH4, with American targets should be no more difficult than making my make believe Victory Mod and German U-boat bases in the Pacific.

One can also mod the patrol zones to where the subs under MacArthur are forced to patrol off of the Islands where supplies were needed and where troops were needed. I don't think one could create the condition where American subs going out of Pearl in late 43 had their magnetic detonators deactivated, only to have to reactivate them the moment they moved into Australain waters under the hidebound comman of Admiral Christie in Perth. Dipicting the screwed up command structure would be a programmer level fix.

No doubt skin modders will quickly turn the US subs into Japanese subs. Who knows, maybe with a lot of work one could transport the SH3 U-boat models into SH4. Its the same engine.

I don't get it Wave Skipper, if the game doesn't model torpedo failure or "the lousy command system" the game isn't realistic enough for you, but if the game is what you call "realistic" then it's too boring?:doh:
You want to play a Japanese commander with subs that only went down to 30 meters like RO-class subs? With a doctrine that does not allow you to sink merchants and therefore waiting for a warship to cross your path? That's what I would call a dull game.:arrgh!:

SH4 is a game to be played by anyone over the age of 7....not a thesis on American submarine warefare in WWII. It's meant to be enjoyed as a game which places the player in a US sub in the Pacific between 1941 and 1945.

There will be a reasonable level of historical accuracy surrounding all aspects of the game, but it's just a game. :D

If a sub sim was EXTREMLY accurate - no one would play. Read the book "Take Her Deep". If memory serves the Halibut went on 9 war patrols and came up empty on about 3 of them and w/ very little on 4 others.

In sim terms - that would add up to a lot of cruising and a lot of Zzzzzz!

To me, a good sim reflects history - but takes out most of the boring stuff.

Barkhorn.

Well at least people quit
 

claiming I was dishonoring the memory of American Sub skippers.

"I don't get it Wave Skipper, if the game doesn't model torpedo failure or "the lousy command system" the game isn't realistic enough for you, but if the game is what you call "realistic" then it's too boring"

Well, I will attempt to restate it in simple terms:

What is more exciting in realistic historical terms? (A) A game about a real sub force (USA) that spent 2 years with a low kill ratio and a terrible battle formula and plan (or lack there of), going up against a real ASW force that was underfunded (Japanese escorts), that did not have radar early and did not use it much when it finally got it, that had dinky depth charges and that set these to detonate too shallow, and that never dropped more than a handful of DCs before breaking off attacks (until about 43) and in short acted like the "novice" escorts in SH3 that everyone thought were so dull - a pathetic force that never used hunter-killer groups with small carriers to find subs.

OR

(B) A game about a real sub force that had an agressive view of sub warfare (Japanese) mainly aiming at warships - even entering harbors (Pearl) years before an American sub skipper would even dare to enter a Japanese harbor; A Japanese force that faced many challenging obstacles, that also had powerful torpedoes that worked, going up against a real ASW force that had learned many valuable lessons in the Atlantic (The Americans), that had radar early and used it, that spent lots of money on its escort force and that had large depth charges, and set them deep, that used carrier planes to hunt for subs and that had escorts that in a game should be set quickly to "expert", and a force that understood the concept of hunter-killer groups.

In other words, the Japanese never did ASW well. So in real life it was not a real challenge. The Americans took nearly 2.5 to 3 years to begin doing sub attacks well and waited over 2 years to solve their torpedo problem. They began the war with no real plan, and ended up trying everything depending on the whims of its messed up command structure.

A fun game that is REAL TO LIFE is one where the two sides are assinged to the roles that they did best. The Japanese sub force was not up to German standards, but it began the war with a better sub force and coherent submarine plan than the Americans. So a fun REALISTIC Pacific war game should have chosen the Japanese. The Americans, while slow to figure out submarine warfare, was already well versed about ASW from both WWI and early WWII convoys and also had some of the best ASW ships ever built. So a fun realistic Pacific game should have picked the Americans to fill the role for ASW.

So DUH, (:doh:)......what would make the better game in real historical terms?????

Now SH4 will likely PLAY fun but it will not be very historical.

Now compare SH3. Everyone in the 20th century viewed the German U-boat force as one of the best submarine forces for the first half of that century. I was watching a show about an American who had built a glass domed sub in Britain, and he wanted to connect it to WWII submarines. So what did he do? He went and found a German U-boat man to ride in it, NOT an American, not a Brit, not a Frenchman. Why? Cause the truth is the Germans were the first nation to really take submarines to their ultimate ability and real war role. And this had been done in 1914-1918!!!!! The other powers did not, for they concentrated too much on surface fleets.

Now think escorts and 20th century and what comes to mind? Brit ships in WWI and WWII? Americans? Yeah, why? Cause they did that well! So SH3 was a great fun game for guys, cause boys and men love CHALLENGE - difficulty,, and SH3 scenarios were near to real history (except for a lack of wolfpacks). It was a no brainer.

SH4 will be a fun non-historical game - that once modded to the MAX may become either a dull realistic game, or a fun realistic game depending on how its modded (dull for the first two years if made realistic with American subs or fun for the first 3 years if remade as Japanese subs). The point is SH3 was both fun and realistic out of the box.

Ubi picked an Amercian sub force becuase it was part of 90s gaming traditions, not based on realism (which no one expected in the 90s) and it will sell well to Europe and the USA. Japanese programmers could make the right game and should, but won't because their country is afraid of offending their trading partners and Asia.

I think that war is SO LAST CENTURY its time for the Germans and Japanese to stop ignoring their real WWII history and embrace it.

On december 7th Japanese MIDGET subs tried to enter Peral Harbor, but they didn't do any damage and they didn't survive either.
Japanese sub captains might have been dedicated but not very successful. They sunk 2 carriers (USS Wasp, USS Indianapolis) and perhaps some destroyers. The rest of the war they were hunted and didn't achieve much.
To create a game where you cruise the ocean to sink a BB or CV and hope not to be sunk by an escort with radar isn't fun at all.
I agree with you that the German U-Boats were the best until the allies had radar, but the Americans were still better than the Japanese. The first 21 month were a mess, but then they did have a working command system, good torpedos, young and dedicated sub skippers. But what did the Japanese have? Lousy subs (they couldn't even reproduce German subs because they lacked the technology), captains that believed that attacking merchants was dishonorable, crappy radar (even the Germans managed to get radar to work) and an high command that behaved as if they were still samurais.

Well yeah that's true
 

and I already stated elsewhere on this forum that I believe the game will be more or less historical and fun beginning around early to mid 43 clear until 45. I know the Japanese did not do all that well, but not because 70% of their impact torpedo attacks were duds or because nearly 90% of their magnetic attacks were duds.

If you think about it - what would be worse in real hsitorical terms - trying to chase war ships that will have deadly easorts and getting depth charged deep? Or going up against thin screens of Japanese escorts and getting depth charged 100 feet too shallow? In SH3 I like the heavy challenge of deadly escorts and planes. I know SH4 will set the DC attacks deep (unrealistic) and MAY make them too powerful. On the other hand it is true that the Japanese sub force ended the war doing little more than transport.

I think the truth is we need to ask the Devs to give us some Japanese models to include in the patches, so that we can work Japanese subs into the mix. I know they had fundings and time issues, but the best idea would have been to include both sides.

Let's face it SH4 is SH3 but with new models and new seas. It will likely play like SH3 and rather than have the goofy US command structure we will feel like we are in new U-boats dealing with BdU. We will be U-boat captains in our own tactics (not the Devs fault) and the Japanese escorts will feel and act like Allied DDs.

It will also be new fodder for the modder's. So it will be good.