Effective use of the Mk27 Cutie

[Hoss1193]

These became available for me about 4 patrols ago, and am yet unable to find a comfortable way to employ them. Seems to me a Catch-22 to use the things. Can only fire them at <100ft depth (i.e., almost always above the thermocline...where I DON'T like to hang out with escorts around). And even then, I need a firing solution...and the one thing I like less than being above the layer is going up to PD.

I can accept having to sneak up to <100 ft to open the tube doors. But having to go up to PD to sneak a look and get a solution just seems suicidal. And moreover...am not 100% sure *why* I have to do that. If I have an aft-tending bearing on a DD, I don't quite understand why I can't just fire the Mk27 from stern tube as I'm diving and hope that it locks onto and homes to the target.

The critical point of engagement to me where Mk27 would be most helpful is during convoy attack as I'm beginning evasion. Just torped a merchant a two, going deep now now now. As I'm diving through 80 ft or so, pop out the Cutie just to give the escort something else to worry about besides finding ME.

I've tried delaying my dive to a) swing periscope around and lock onto pursuing DD, then b) turning stern toward the escort and firing the Cutie when within about 20degrees, c) THEN diving below the layer.

I generally find that this procedure just delays my dive too long. The DD is almost always too close at the point for the Cutie to arm, home, and impact on first pass; now the 12-knot Mk27 is slowly following around the DD while the escort is running around pinging me, dropping DCs, etc. End result: Cutie runs out of juice and sinks. Meanwhile, the time I gave up to shoot the Cutie is time that I gave the DD to get a ping on me, and now it's a lot tougher to shake him.

A secondary problem I've found with the Cutie is that once it begins homing...it can just as easily home on ME as it can the DD. More than once, I've been trying to avoid DC drops with a few seconds of flank bell, but had to come to all-stop to keep my Cutie from running right into my screws.

I did have one good success with them, but was in the middle of a rather chancy convoy scrape that I'd rather not repeat as a matter of my own standing tactical practice.

Bottom line...when I have the opportunity to use them, they're not really needed...and when they're really needed, not much opportunity to use them.

I'm just about ready to abandon the Mk27 (not to mention keep the 500 renown apiece in the bank) and go back to filling those two tubes with Mk23's (I've been deploying with Mk27's in Tubes 7 and 8 in my Balao).

What am I missing in how to use these things?

[SteamWake]

Just a few tips on the cutie... I havent had much sucess with them to be honest.

First they are very slow 10 knots I believe DD's can easly out run them. If your going to use one on a DD make sure it is un aware.

Second you do not have to be at periscope depth nor have a target 'locked' to use them. They can be launched at 90 feet deep and pointed in the general direction of the sound source. Out the rear tubes is best as it sends them away from you.

Third speaking of sound sources try not to be one. Once launched or just before cut your sound profile by slowing to 2 or 3 knots, and going deep.

The best use I have found for them so far is to launch them into the middle of a convoy that has broken up and sailing helter skelter. Hopefully it will find something to lock on to.

Im sure some others will have more technical tips on their use. Ive launched about a half dozen of these things and only had like 2 impacts.

[aanker]

Rockin Robbins made a good post a while back similar to this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...26&postcount=9

I don't think that is the original post I read but basically it is the same technique. Anywho, I thought I'd give his "Cutie on a leash" method a try and loaded some aft on my next few patrols. Eventually I found them taking up space better used (on my boat) for other torpedoes.

IMO the Cutie is great for special circumstances but it is a rare occasion that a Cutie does me any good.

The Cutie manual says to fire them at 199' however the un-modded game will only allow them to be fired at under 99'. This can be edited with a text editor like Notepad in:
(example: Data\Submarine\NSS_Balao\NSS_Balao.cfg) under the [Properties] section to:

TorpLaunchMaxDepth=60;meters .....which is close enough.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Daniel Prates]

I found this old thread which seems to be useful. Apparently, nobody likes those cuties:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//arc.../t-134664.html

[Stealhead]

You dont really need any solution at all to use a cutie.I only carry them in the rear torpedo room the cutie is only really useful as an escort killing weapon it simply lacks the firepower to kill anything else.You can of course carry one fore if you wanted.

What I do is save them for when I get an aggressive escort I wait for him to start coming at me full speed and I let the cutie fly right at him if he is on my 180 I just simply fire the cutie though you can set up a solution on one if he is not right on your 180.Also you dont have to be deep to fire one but it is wiser.I always stop my engines and start diving when I fire one it is very wise not have your screws moving at all after you launch a cutie.Most times the cutie will head straight for my pursuer and because he is going full speed and making so much noise he has less a chance to be able to evade.

Other times I have used the leash thing.The trick with cutie is to only use them against a close range attacker who running at you at high speed that way you get the best use of the cutie which is very slow and wont work very well in other situations.

Mk.27s are very much a scalpel they are a useful weapon only for certain situations.I have seen on one occasion where my cutie was trying its best to keep up with this DD that was making DC runs but the DD kept speeding up past the 12knts of the cutie finally the explosions of the DCs attracted the cutie and when they faded it picked up another DD and hit it so in effect the DDs sister ship sank her.

[Daniel Prates]

Stealhead, I take it that you use the cutie sometimes. Tell me something:

1 - What's the cutie actual speed (presuming we are all using TMO)? i read contradictory things.

2 - It has a minimum arming distance?

3 - It really homes onto pursuing ships, or I must basically leave it in the path of the pursuer?

[Stealhead]

The speed is 12 kts. IIRC it has the normal arming range 400/500yds IIRC so dont let them get too close.It hears the prop noise in the water and "follows" that but it is not smart so it will track the loudest noise it hears if a full speed DD is 2000yds behind it wont notice it even if there is nothing else around so you want to fire the cutie so that its nose is pointed towards what you want it to target this why I use them against head on (towards me) attackers basically if all goes well they will follow a course right into each other.I my self always set them to 5 feet contact they 95% of the will kill any DD in one hit or at least he wont be attacking you any more also the others will be confused by this attack they are expecting a normal torpedo run and will counter this type of attack allowing you to escape.

[andy_311]

I use MK 27s all the time in late war and all my tubes are loaded with them,however i have altered the speed of my mk27s to about 30knots and a range of about 5000.you can alter the depth as mentioned before to what you want your torpedoes fo fire at.

I know launching these little fish at pd can be lethal not just to the enemy but to yourself as a found out a few times.

[Stealhead]

Yeah but you are modding them the OP is talking about using them more realistically you must also have modded your renown level to afford that.

[andy_311]

Yes I did , I also got myself a torp editor a while back from this site i think so if am out on patrol and do a rearm they cost me nowt.

[Armistead]

Actually the best way to aim a cutie is shooting 90 degrees or behind the enemy. I find shooting head on they usually can't turn in time to hit a escort.

In TMO they're basically a waste of time, seldom even damage a escort to any degree. I'll carry a few late war for use in Formosa.

If they go off course and near you, you can speed up and get them to home in on you and lead them to a ship, once pointed in the right direction, just cut engines and dive.

[Thrair]

I've said pretty much the same thing before, but I'll say it again:

I've found cuties are only really useful for attempting to blow the props off ships in a convoy or task force so you can leave them dead in the water to finish off when the escorts leave (especially in shallow water). In that respect, they're actually fairly effective.
They also have limited use for torpedo attacks in stormy weather with thick fog. But, once again, you are relying on taking out the props, as they will not be enough to outright sink a ship.



However, anti-escort weapons they are not. Especially in TMO, as Armistead says. They rarely do enough damage to a DD to sink or even drive them off (*EDIT* Oh yah, and that's assuming they even hit. They're rather slow). You're much better off using regular torpedos on escorts.

A tactic I'm fond of for dealing with escorts is to let them steam directly towards me, then fire two mark 14s. I intentionally miss with the first torpedo by sending it on a course *slightly* to one side of the escort, then have the followup torpedo set to the other side to catch the escort while it swerves to avoid the first.

[Stealhead]

Well this just shows you that everyone plays a little different because I find the cuties pretty useful only for killing DDs and useless for blowing props off why do that when you can "blow the hull off" with a regular torpedo?

For me if you use them in the correct situation they often kill a DD in one hit(TMO 2.0 have not used a cutie in 2.1 but I doubt the damage is different) and if I set them up right I get a kill 75% of the time.I do a agree that the DDT shot with regular fish is very effective though I will send a three spread to cover any possible jink.

The bottom line is the the cutie in real life was designed with killing a charging escort in mind and real life subs did successfully use them in this way and you can in game as well some boats also sank merchants with them the Barb in one hit but in a manner that SH4 does not simulate.Which simply shows that there is more than one way to successfully employ a weapons system in WWII as in the game just as different skippers in real life used tactics that worked for them that others did not employ.It does not mean that anyone is wrong it just means that there is more than one way and one could try them all and use the one they have success or create their own tactics.

[Thrair]

I apologize if I came across as confrontational. I didn't intend to imply my opinion on cuties was the "correct" viewpoint, although re-reading my post, I can see how it might appear that way.

As to blowing the hull off with a regular torpedo, I fully agree. What I was getting at was in the odd situations where shallow water/escort/weather/finagle's law prevents getting a clean shot with regular torpedoes. This creates a (highly) situational niche use of attempting the prop-explodification.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Thrair

I've said pretty much the same thing before, but I'll say it again:

I've found cuties are only really useful for attempting to blow the props off ships in a convoy or task force so you can leave them dead in the water to finish off when the escorts leave (especially in shallow water). In that respect, they're actually fairly effective.
They also have limited use for torpedo attacks in stormy weather with thick fog. But, once again, you are relying on taking out the props, as they will not be enough to outright sink a ship.



However, anti-escort weapons they are not. Especially in TMO, as Armistead says. They rarely do enough damage to a DD to sink or even drive them off (*EDIT* Oh yah, and that's assuming they even hit. They're rather slow). You're much better off using regular torpedos on escorts.

A tactic I'm fond of for dealing with escorts is to let them steam directly towards me, then fire two mark 14s. I intentionally miss with the first torpedo by sending it on a course *slightly* to one side of the escort, then have the followup torpedo set to the other side to catch the escort while it swerves to avoid the first.

Totally agree, cuties were designed to take out props, the warhead was too small to do any other major damage. A few attacks were successful against small patrol crafts, totally worthless agains DDs.

I've tried several DTT shots from the stern on charging escorts with TMO 2 and 2.1 and got bow hits, never bothered DD's, but sank a few small escorts. The bigger issue is often the cutie would head directly at the bow but go right by and try to turn to follow the props, but couldn't make a radical enough turn and just went on away.

I long decided they're worthless except when I want to attack those late war large convoys in formosa, but I'll shoot them at escorts from about 90 degrees before I'm detected, that way they're going slow enough that cuties can catch them. Once detected I find them totally worthless,escorts go too fast.

I'll take M14's everytime. Nothing sucks worse when you have a nice capital ship damaged and going slow and all you have left is cuties that have no effect on large warships in TMO.