Swearing

[Sailor Steve]

A new sub-topic has sprung up in another thread, and I thought it best to move it here.

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Because this abbreviation could mean a lot. Of course it means something specific - but if a person knows that anyways, like the always mentioned children (what child browses this board!?), I wonder why it is still a problem when a kid knows these words anyways (and kids today do... except maybe home-schooled and living in isolation... sooooo... home-schooled).

From my understanding Neal came up with that rule when his daughters were indeed that age, and read the forums all the time.

What if I say "N-Word"? Is that infraction-worthy as well because I 'masked' a bad word? Well then how could one ever talk about this? One could never post in the GT section stuff like "Wow, today at the gas station that lady went apes.... (see?) and threw lots of n-words around just because bla bla... story ends..."

*infraction!*

That very question came up a couple of years ago. A member used a proscribed word and gave him a warning. Neal overturned it because the guy was quoting an article from a newspaper. I disagreed at the time but I can see where that's a problem of its own.

Also, from the other point of view, I've been asked more that once why some people seem to get away with using disguised letters for words like "b*st*rd". I have to point out that self-censoring has nothing to do with the rules, especially when "bastard" is not a proscribed word.

I also have to ask where you personally would draw the line? Allow asterisks? Allow funny "comic-book swearing"? You know, stuff like &$(*@!)? Remove the rules altogether and allow anything to pass? If you would allow asterisks but not real swearing, why not?

I don't have answers for most of those questions, but I'm curious to see what others think.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I keep saying that because it is the truth and you don't do anything wrong. If the rules are strict and you enforce them, you can hardly be blamed.

I don't complain about you - I just like to bitch about Subsim's rules as I believe they are way too strict. It makes perfect sense to keep this place rather clean, but handing out infractions for someone "masking" words, I mean...what? That doesn't make any sense at all.
If I say F... ! and get punished for it, I don't feel it is justified. Because this abbreviation could mean a lot. Of course it means something specific - but if a person knows that anyways, like the always mentioned children (what child browses this board!?), I wonder why it is still a problem when a kid knows these words anyways (and kids today do... except maybe home-schooled and living in isolation... sooooo... home-schooled).

What if I say "N-Word"? Is that infraction-worthy as well because I 'masked' a bad word? Well then how could one ever talk about this? One could never post in the GT section stuff like "Wow, today at the gas station that lady went apes.... (see?) and threw lots of n-words around just because bla bla... story ends..."

*infraction!*

Maybe I'm missing something, but from my PoV this kind of rule doesn't make any sense at all and reminds me of this 911 dispatcher who repeatedly hung up on a young girl calling in because her dad had a heart attack - because she said "f......g" at the start of the conversation, not knowing she is already through.

Just my 2 cents on this derailment (sorry for that... but I feel this is rather important)

I get a lot of flack from some people over my attempts to minimize vulgar language in the forum. Other people appreciate the effort to keep a level of class and civility in a public forum. Are the rules strict, or is it a matter of taste? It's the "one man's art is another man's trash" argument, I guess. I just want to keep this place a little classier than a YouTube or Live Leak comment section, you know.

Social morality is in a long, sad slide, I don't want to contribute to it.





I mean, should there be any limits to how we conduct ourselves, or should Howard Stern and Miley Cyrus be our guides?

[August]

I'd favor allowing asterisks or @#!$@#%^ as long as it contains more characters than the actual swear word (and it's not directed at anyone in particular).

IE:

What the ****?!
vs
What the **********?!

Seems to me like the latter version takes a bit of the sting out of it don't you think?

In any case though would not favor open swearing. While I have been stymied by the ban a few times myself I still think that not allowing it helps improve the overall level of forum discourse.

[Aktungbby]

Well if we subsimmers are the armchair 'military geniuses' which what we all think we are **** (fourstar) General 'Stormin Normin' Schwarzkopf famously set the standard when he used the expression 'bovine scatology' instead of the mundane B.S. No need to be vulgar or violate Neal's FAQ exceedingly reasonable rules. English is a fabulous language of innumerable facets and subtleties; let's stay creative-it's actually more fun.

[Mr Quatro]

I like things (meaning the rules) the way they are

Too many youtube comments are just meant to flame and boy do they do that

But if Trump wins we will have to change the rules, right?
I mean after all the POTUS

Would this poster be considered rude?

[Aktungbby]

But if Trump wins we will have to change the rules, right?

Originally Posted by FAQ

...do NOT e-mail the moderators or admin to complain or argue a case. Take it like a man, wait out your time,...

No changing the rules!!!; Sailor Steve would (righteously)'schlong' us! ...and we'd have to " take it like a man" per the FAQ ! http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/56823/trumps-yiddish-fighting-words-hillary-got-shlonged-by-obama-in-2008-jerusalem/#e8P3FiiZrLulEf1r.97

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I get a lot of flack from some people over my attempts to minimize vulgar language in the forum. Other people appreciate the effort to keep a level of class and civility in a public forum. Are the rules strict, or is it a matter of taste? It's the "one man's art is another man's trash" argument, I guess. I just want to keep this place a little classier than a YouTube or Live Leak comment section, you know.

That's where my dilemma starts. Nippelspanner is correct, I seem to be the only one who takes the rules at face value and tries to enforce them. Maybe I take things too seriously, but for me it's either-or. Either they are rules or they are just suggestions. If they're rules, I think they should be enforced strictly, or else people will always try to push the boundaries, and no one will know exactly what those boundaries are. If they're suggestions, why have them at all? If nobody follows them and nobody enforces them, then they have no value other than as a polite request, which anybody is free to ignore.

As I said, a dilemma.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by August

I'd favor allowing asterisks or @#!$@#%^ as long as it contains more characters than the actual swear word (and it's not directed at anyone in particular).
.

I concur with this. The alpha-numeric keys cusswords might be best.

The old comic book connection kind of helps defuse any tension, but everyone gets what you mean.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I also have to ask where you personally would draw the line? Allow asterisks? Allow funny "comic-book swearing"? You know, stuff like &$(*@!)? Remove the rules altogether and allow anything to pass? If you would allow asterisks but not real swearing, why not?

That is basically my whole point.
I totally understand why we can't write out certain words and although I was tempted to do it a million times by now, I prefer not to litter Subsim with this and to read mostly 'clean' posts.
Also, I agree with this rule since it makes a moderators job easier.
For example.
A new forum member arrives and goes crazy with these words.
Most people, including me, would consider this rude and "unfit" for Subsim, so a mod could point to the rules and act if necessary.
This would not be possible with a 4chan-like "everything goes" rule-set.

However, I do not see the point why I can't write ****!
Where is the harm?

I didn't write anything bad.
At best I gave everyone a puzzle open for interpretation.
Really, I can't think of any reason why the use of masking would not be allowed, it just makes no sense at all to me.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I get a lot of flack from some people over my attempts to minimize vulgar language in the forum. Other people appreciate the effort to keep a level of class and civility in a public forum. Are the rules strict, or is it a matter of taste? It's the "one man's art is another man's trash" argument, I guess. I just want to keep this place a little classier than a YouTube or Live Leak comment section, you know.

Social morality is in a long, sad slide, I don't want to contribute to it.

[pic]

[pic]

I mean, should there be any limits to how we conduct ourselves, or should Howard Stern and Miley Cyrus be our guides?

I feel you missed my actual point.
My point is not "let's cuss away!", my point is "let's not be silly!".
Things need to be balanced. If they are extreme in one direction or the other, they become crap. This goes for language too, in my opinion.

Honestly, implying or blaming people who use cuss-words of being "uncivilized" and immediately pointing towards one of the absolute extremes (Howard Stern, who is far from uncivilized btw!) is a little lazy, especially when applying a meme that actually defends one of the worst radical liars, bigots and hypocrites of our time.
You know, Stern might cuss like a sailor and sure crossed a line or two in his career when we talk taste, but he doesn't fake anything, is honest and I heard more wisdom coming out of his mouth in the 2-3 shows I have seen with him than out of Trumps dirty lying gush since...ever, so I wonder how accurate and therefore valid your examples actually are.

Social morality is in a long, sad slide, I don't want to contribute to it.

Which is something our species claims since way back to the early days of the Roman Empire... and we still don't have sex with our lawnmowers... well OK some actually do but come on, you get my point.
Cussing like a mad sailor doesn't make you uncivilized, it also doesn't say anything about your parents or how you have been raised.
While it is true that parents don't take enough responsibility for their kids anymore these days (just talk to ANY teacher...), they can't be blamed to 100% and how one expresses himself is just one tiny individual aspect that will be influenced by everything we do and learn for all our lives.
Just saying "cussing -> road to damnation" is a little too shallow, too easy for my taste.
Over my years here, I read some very disturbing posts full of hate, bigotry and inhumane opinions... they did not contain a single sign of foul language, yet also not any sign of being civilized at all when serious suggestions appeared to drop nuclear weapons on the middle east to be done with it already, for example.

Also, how "civilized" (highly subjective) are we if we are so strict over things ("masking" and maybe rare/soft cussing) that censoring it and/or punishing the poster becomes more important than the actual message?

Is a post someone creates automatically less true, less important, less funny or less thought-provoking - because the OP used some foul language?
Is a post automatically better because someone did not?

A painting doesn't get awesome because I use super expensive paint.
And it won't become crap just because I use low-quality paint - it is still up to me and what I do with it.
In the end, it depends on the poster and what he does with his words.
(I suck with analogies and such, sorry... sorry. )

I just want to keep this place a little classier than a YouTube or Live Leak comment section, you know.

Guess we're in the same club then, no doubt!
However, I don't follow up with this if=then logic, as if only because we allow masking or even "light cussing" (example), we will end up like non-moderated YT channels.
This reminds me of the logic of some people when the gay-marriage debate was going on, painting pictures of Sodom and Gomorrah and Dooms Day... because a minority of people is now allowed to marry.

The other way around would be:
"Neal! Not even masking foul language? What's next, a forced Grammar-Nazi-Club™ membership with a monthly subscription fee where you are the Führer and Steve your Propagandaminister?"

At least, that is how I see it.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That's where my dilemma starts. Nippelspanner is correct, I seem to be the only one who takes the rules at face value and tries to enforce them. Maybe I take things too seriously, but for me it's either-or. Either they are rules or they are just suggestions. If they're rules, I think they should be enforced strictly, or else people will always try to push the boundaries, and no one will know exactly what those boundaries are. If they're suggestions, why have them at all? If nobody follows them and nobody enforces them, then they have no value other than as a polite request, which anybody is free to ignore.

As I said, a dilemma.

Spot on.
One example could be to adjust the rules to allow masking like ****, while still not allowing writing out (actually saying!) the word in question.
This is easy to understand, follow and easy to enforce by moderators without them having to worry about a thing, since there is no room for interpretation or boundaries to push either, since things are clear.

Now, one (so you, Steve ) might say "but right now the rules are clear as well: zero tolerance, so where is the problem?"
Steve, excellent question!
Personally, I believe that not even allowing masking or actually harmless acronyms like WTF! are actually restricting a posters abilities of expression. This is no moot-excuse because I'm no writing talent, I'm totally serious about it.
We had our fair share of WTF! and similar words used in various topics and I find they can underline emotions of a post/poster very well, without becoming rude or bad in any way. Another example are pictures or memes we see in the funny picture thread. I found various hilarious pics in the past and while my initial thought was "I gotta put that on Subsim!", I was instantly reminded that I can't, because it contains the 'tools of the devil'.

It's early morning in ol' Germania right now, not sure if I'm rambling, mumbling or actually make a little sense and you guys get my point of view.
Anyways, thanks for the open debate and sorry for the wall of text... ffs!
(kidding, kidding!)

[Betonov]

We should at least allow ''A hole'', when it's not aimed at the forum members.
Calling politicians jerks is an unwelcome understatement.

[Eichhörnchen]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

English is a fabulous language of innumerable facets and subtleties; let's stay creative-it's actually more fun.

I'd want things to stay the way they are, allowing those of us who want to have a bit of fun with innuendo still to do so. Some rude words do add greatly in emphasising a point, but once they're allowed then there's no going back and I agree with Neal that current standards keep Subsim a cut above and a'classier' place to hang out.

But, as with spelling, there are differences between UK and US English that create anomalies, also traditions of bawdy usage on this side of the ocean which we think of as harmless but US readers either wouldn't get and/or suspect were offensive. I know the reverse is also true, where a few fairly mild terms Americans use with impunity might raise very disapproving looks here. I've used these (I have to confess) hoping that they'd raise a titter among my mates in the UK and Oz, but at the same time get past a moderator... sorry

"I never understood why I'm allowed to say bollocks..."


One other thing:

I don't want to derail by mention of the related subject of vulgarity, but just as this can involve use of bad language, it also can make use of euphemism... does that offend as well?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ostcount=16713

[Oberon]

If arresting the decline of morality is the goal then swearing is just the tip of the iceberg.

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

One other thing:

I don't want to derail by mention of the related subject of vulgarity, but just as this can involve use of bad language, it also can make use of euphemism... does that offend as well?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ostcount=16713

Well, I once made a thread with a video of a cute little boy mistaking his new toy bow for...the word you used, making his parents laugh and having a good time.
It disappeared without notice.

Take a guess.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Oberon

If arresting the decline of morality is the goal then swearing is just the tip of the iceberg.

Wan't it the tip of an iceberg that sank the Titanic?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Wan't it the tip of an iceberg that sank the Titanic?

It certainly didn't help...