Is the UK near an end as we know it? The writing may be on the wall

[SUBMAN1]

I was reading this article about the V-22 from a UK news source (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1276296,00.html), and I come across these two paragraphs that really trouble me:

Ironically, it landed among 11 American Harriers - the only major weapon the Pentagon ever bought from Britain. In the 1970s when the jump jet was spawned, Britain could afford to develop its own aircraft.


Nowadays America's defence budget, outstripping all others combined, is the only one which can fund such radical new equipment.

Can I ask a question? (I guess I am going to anyway) What is happening to our world where only one country is able to develop weapons on its own like this? This tells me that we have pretty big problems as a whole I would think. What has happened to the world's defense budget? Has it dried up resting on one country to defend the rest? This is plain wrong. Where is this money going? The UK is the only European country that can possibly defend itself adequately anymore, but this is even nearing an end when I see writing like this.

Am I guessing right when I start thinking that too much money is going to support an over-bloated population with welfare type programs that such a country can no longer sustain an active military to simply defend and project power anymore? What has happened in the last 30 years to come to this? It is actually deeply troubling.

We are on a guns or butter type experiment, and if this world goes to pot, I can guarantee that America will not be able to deal with everyone who is resting on her support for defense. It is an impossiblility. When you guys go to vote, I hope you keep these thoughts in mind. The world may seem passive right now, but it is far from.

-S

[Chock]

You could look at it this way, if you can't afford to develop weapons, that might not be a bad thing. But...

Britain needs to wake up and stop pretending it is still a world power, and even when it was a world power, it was only so because it was built on the exploitation of peoples in parts of its empire. It is no accident that Ghandi actually supported the Nazis initially when he saw that they were going for Britain, even though he would probably have traded one oppressor for another had things worked out for the Nazis.

The US is going to experience the same thing, maybe not in our lifetime, but inevitably as China rises to take its trip along the industrial development road that Britain has already been down, it will make the US a shadow of what it was. Already everything from TVs to plastic forks are made in China, because it can exploit a a populace with lower wage demands. The US cannot do this simply because everyone there aspires to high standards of living, but no longer has the industry to support such desires.

In 200 years the US will be like a third-world country, and the UK will probably be like that in less than fifty years.

Chock

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Subman1

Can I ask a question? (I guess I am going to anyway) What is happening to our world where only one country is able to develop weapons on its own like this? This tells me that we have pretty big problems as a whole I would think. What has happened to the world's defense budget? Has it dried up resting on one country to defend the rest? This is plain wrong. Where is this money going? The UK is the only European country that can possibly defend itself adequately anymore, but this is even nearing an end when I see writing like this.

It's called peace, even if there hasn't been any. The end of the cold war freed up all that extra money for other things and it's pretty much historical that governments see their military as a drain of resources until they need them. No European country see's themselves as warring on their own. They will be part of a multi-national force with the U.S. supplying the heavy stuff so why have the expense?
After Korea and Vietnam the U.S. military leadership swore that they will never be caught unprepared. Those junior officers from back then are the Chiefs of Staff of today yet we are unprepared numerically as Afghanistan and Iraq have shown. Also Rumsfeld wanted to cut the military manpower even further and rely on technology to fill the gap but he never got the chance to implement that of course.
Anyway, thats how I see it.

Originally Posted by Chock

The US is going to experience the same thing, maybe not in our lifetime, but inevitably as China rises to take its trip along the industrial development road that Britain has already been down, it will make the US a shadow of what it was. Already everything from TVs to plastic forks are made in China, because it can exploit a a populace with lower wage demands. The US cannot do this simply because everyone there aspires to high standards of living, but no longer has the industry to support such desires.
In 200 years the US will be like a third-world country, and the UK will probably be like that in less than fifty years.

I agree somewhat but I can't see the U.S. being like a third-world country ever. I do think however that eventually the U.S. will become an assortment of different state-countries and we might have our own little league of nations. Political corruption is rampant in this country and eventually there is going to be fallout but not anytime soon. Think decades.
In 200 years the world will be run by corporations anyway.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

In 200 years the world will be run by corporations anyway.

Rollerball anyone? :rotfl:

[XabbaRus]

Basically it isn't such a bad thing that nations ahve to cooperate to build hi tech stuff.

The UK has the expertise to develop and build its own aircraft even to the F-22 level. BAe systems pretty much did that with a very F-22 looknig aircraft that went as far as a full scale tesbed for demonstrating and developing stealth tech. There was a photo of it in a radar test room.

Thing is no one in the gov. has the balls to get it done. I presonally think it would be cheaper in the end and benefit UK industry better. Typhoon is turning out to be good but it took so long due to the too many cooks syndrome.

We are gettin 6 Type-45s maybe more, 2 carriers (pretty much a cert) at least 4 new subs maybe 6 and the F-35. Then end isn't nigh and I don't think welfare programmes can be blamed for it.

[JSLTIGER]

Originally Posted by Chock

In 200 years the US will be like a third-world country, and the UK will probably be like that in less than fifty years.

Chock

200 years? Try 2050. The only reason that the United States has the economy that it does is because we're still working off the savings from the Great Depression years that were let loose in the post-war world of the 1950s. That money has allowed the United States to have economic growth of unparalleled proportions. However, that money is already gone, one of the primary indications of which is the national debt of the United States and the fact that we have gone from the world's number one creditor nation to the world's number one debtor nation in a matter of only 20 years.

The reason that I say 2050, however, is because the United States also relies on cheap oil to maintain its economy and living standards. Once the oil begins to dry up (currently in the process) the oil-loving economy here is going to collapse. Maybe not instantly, but continuous lobbying from the oil companies over the years has ensured that we will not have a working feasible backup solution (i.e fuel cells/solar power, etc.) in place in time. Once the economy collapses, the living standards here will plummet, Hoovervilles, not seen since the 1930s will re-emerge and the United States will re-enter the stone age.

I could write more, but dinner calls.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by JSLTIGER

I could write more, but dinner calls.

Is dinner over with yet?

[JSLTIGER]

It was good too!

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

What is happening to our world where only one country is able to develop weapons on its own like this? ...

....if this world goes to pot, I can guarantee that America will not be able to deal with everyone who is resting on her support for defense. It is an impossiblility.

-S

Well, if we are the only ones making new advanced weapons systems, who would be a problem to deal with?

But I agree with you, it would be nice to have more participation by our NATO allies in this.

BTW, I read the same article, it was linked by Bill Nichols on the SUBSIM World Naval News section. Just a reminder for those who always go straight to the forums

I think SUBMAN1 has it right. Guns (weapons systems of all sorts) or Butter (social welfare of all sorts). The current disparity in weapons development is a very good deal for the US and not such a good deal for other 'western' nations.

As an example, currently the Brits deploy Trident D-5 nuclear missles on its Vanguard class boomers. Fine and dandy, but the US retains all control over those missles. The UK in effect leases them, and perhaps cannot use them w/out US permission. There is no transfer of technology nor a homegrown technology base to manufacture or maintain a submarine deterent.

I'm sure this is good for Britain b/c no R&D nor expensive construction or MX costs allow for more social programs which further makes it citizens reliant on the government for their lives.

I used Britain as an example but many of the western democracies work on the same paradigm.

[Oberon]

Bradclark and Xabba are spot on, it's the fact that for the first time in ages Europe is pretty much at peace, aside from terrorist strikes which you can't really fight properly with a standard organised military, Europe has nothing to worry about, Russia is rattling its sabre but hasn't tried reforming the USSR yet, Germany isn't suddenly building up a military machine, France isn't readying a large navy to take over the seas. To the average Joe in the streets, Iran and North Korea are the other side of the world and thus not a threat to mainland UK. The NHS is sucking in funds and creating MRSA, most of central England is a lake, and there's corruption and scandal wherever you turn...

Now imagine that Brown announces he's going to put more money into the military by taking funding from something like...I dunno, public transport, or the multi-million pound draining NHS, can you imagine the headlines? The press would have a field day, and heads would roll quicker than you can say 're-election', just look at all the hoo-haa created over the Trident Replacement scheme. If the threat is not on the doorstep, Britain won't arm itself against it, as I said once before in a post about the new Astute class, we can make excellant machinery, you only have to look at the Astute and Type 45 to realise that...but we only do so under pressure, and since the end of the Cold War, that pressure has evapourated. People just don't see any threat any more.

Just because a threat isn't visible...doesn't mean it's not there, or won't rear its ugly head in the future, that's a fact that many people out there on the street or in the government don't seem to realise.

If the world was a more peaceful place then I'd be the first to advocate disarmament...but the world isn't any more peaceful today than it was fifty years ago, and as a saying goes...those who beat their swords into ploughshares shall be ruled by those who don't...

[mbthegreat]

we can kill foreigners or we can look after our own sick/poor/needy

I'll go with the latter thanks

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I was reading this article about the V-22 from a UK news source (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1276296,00.html), and I come across these two paragraphs that really trouble me:

Can I ask a question? (I guess I am going to anyway) What is happening to our world where only one country is able to develop weapons on its own like this? This tells me that we have pretty big problems as a whole I would think. What has happened to the world's defense budget? Has it dried up resting on one country to defend the rest? This is plain wrong. Where is this money going? The UK is the only European country that can possibly defend itself adequately anymore, but this is even nearing an end when I see writing like this.

Am I guessing right when I start thinking that too much money is going to support an over-bloated population with welfare type programs that such a country can no longer sustain an active military to simply defend and project power anymore? What has happened in the last 30 years to come to this? It is actually deeply troubling.

We are on a guns or butter type experiment, and if this world goes to pot, I can guarantee that America will not be able to deal with everyone who is resting on her support for defense. It is an impossiblility. When you guys go to vote, I hope you keep these thoughts in mind. The world may seem passive right now, but it is far from.

-S

:rotfl: Are you serious? And i would say France, Germany, Italy and Spain can project power if we are talking about foreign comitments? Look at Greece, Sweden..

[Mush Martin]

What happened ? the project for a new american century

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

:rotfl: Are you serious? And i would say France, Germany, Italy and Spain can project power if we are talking about foreign comitments? Look at Greece, Sweden..

Yep. All capable of small force projections, but nothing on the scale of what the US or the UK could do. Nor do they even have the will for it anymore.

-S