Removing renown and equipment

[JScones]

This post in another thread...
What I find totaly stupid is that you would never "BUY" any bit of equipment you would need to go to war with, ever. In all my years serving I only had to go to the Q store and say "I want a Rifle" or "Sign me out a Truck" or heaven forbid "I'll have 4 liners of 50Cal thx!" Or I'd take my bus ( thats my tank ) to the fitters an say "I need a new engine pack, old 1's shat its self" or "Change the Gun ring over, that 1's wonky". Now you notice something, I got everything for FREE!!! (Ok its still belong's to the Army but you get the idea, I dont pay for it ).

The only thing Renown should have been used for was you (the player) getting gongs and promo's and the same deal for your crew. Thats IT! All upgrades/sub hardware should be free of charge care of ol Donitz. So to that end I may every damn bit of equipment cost me a big fat Zero. I sign for bit's, I dont pay for it.
got me thinking...

:hmm: Hmmm. I wonder whether a mod which a) removes all renown costs from all equipment upgrades AND b) randomises the availability of equipment to compensate for the resulting "easy" availability, would be a way to improve this big flaw in the game, plus providing a closer link to reality?

For example, it's 1944. You've removed all renown costs from all available equipment. Leaving it at this means a potential to create a quick and easy Uberboat, which, well, may appeal to some, but not to me.

So, offset this with the simulated effects of sabotage/factory bombings/train bombings and so on (the cause is irrelevant) so that certain equipment is not available at any given time.

"Damn. the shipment of Snorkels bound for St Nazaire were all lost in a train bombing."

Certainly more reflective of reality than the renown test. And certainly possible within SH3Cmdr.

What do people think?
and Hemisent too...
I think this sounds great. As equipt becomes available you click on it and get a message about "temporarily unavailable" and a reason(multiple creative reasons randomly chosen).

Or going one better you pull into base after completing a mission with X amount of equipt. When you leave for your next patrol Commander randomly removes a piece(schnorkel, latest radar, RWR etc.)and reinstalls an older near obsolete model( or nothing at all) reason: Device removed for repairs-due to parts unavailability/lost in transit/damaged during repair, etc. boat is returned to service less the component in question. This way, the boat you brought back may be a bit different than the boat you take out.
Anyway, This is just another subtle idea to screw up your day.
What do others think of this whole concept?

@Hemisent. I can just imagine:
Kaleun: "Umm, Bernhard, where's the u-boat gone?"
Bernhard: "I don't know Kaleun, I swear I left it here! Maybe the repairmen pulled it apart and lost all the pieces? But it is a nice truck they've left us."

[CB..]

can't find the new thread--edit found it lol!!! so here's my two pennys worth

how about lowering the "price" of up-grades according to the players rank--renown total

[SPECIAL1]; anti radar coatings
DaysSpent=1
Nb=1
NameIdx0=1305
Year0=1944
Month0=1
NbSub0=4
Sub00=0
Sub01=1
Sub02=2
Sub03=3
Renown0=1500 <======editable?
Name0=Tarnmatte



this way the more renown you have the cheaper things get which kinda makes about the same amount of sense--at least this way you don't get demoted for up-grading the boat--

or as you say

randomly give the player an up-grade as his rank increases--automatically---not allways going to work out the way the player wants it-
perhaps give the player an editable list of upgrades he would like to be in line for getting--ie he can put in a formal request for anti sonar coatings--rather like a transfer request--and once his renown reaches a certain leevl --there's a good chance it will automatically be added to his boat at the next mission load--that possible?

[U-Bones]

I like it, I have played with reduced or eliminated renown costs for quite some time. I typically combat the imediate uberness by simply not using some items... radar I hate, bold I have never used, sonar is good for causing CTD, deck armament upgrades are non important to my playstyle - I don't even like external torpedos...

Having availability randomly delayed/interrupted at a given base is I think a good thing. Should be a toggle though.

[JScones]

I typically combat the imediate uberness by simply not using some items... radar I hate, bold I have never used, sonar is good for causing CTD, deck armament upgrades are non important to my playstyle
:rotfl:
Having availability randomly delayed/interrupted at a given base is I think a good thing. Should be a toggle though.
Yeah. I don't think I'd make this a part of standard SH3Cmdr cause it may break mods like NYGM TW. I suspect it would be a d/l add-on.

CB's ideas are pretty cool too. I like them, especially the "auto-upgrade" concept. :up:

[Totenkopf]

The way I see it, Renown should be called "Favor" realy. It is a measure of "hey! he did a lot of cool things so lets give him more". When you serve you certainly get the "typical" kit and any grunt can sign for a gun, but to get the top of the line, fresh out of R&D materials, only the best commanders recieved those merrits. Tonnage is fine but if you get one commander who sank 50,000 tons in 5 patrols
or another who sank 50,000 in 1, chances are the veteran who weathered 5 war cruises would be picked for not only a good score, but his RENOWN of combat experience.:hmm:

Personaly, I like to set renown back up for ranks and rewards alone, the "shopping" is just fun hell I even give G7e's a cost. :know:

[CB..]

cheers--once you have got the renown system stabilised- so it's not going up and down like a yo-yo---you could then use it for something much more usefull---

having different patrol zones for differing renown levels--
have a system where by you keep an average expected renown figure for the period of the war (either taking into account the players start date--or by adding renown to the start renown figure)

if the player falls below this figure by a certain degree --he gets transfered-back to Wilm' in a type II for a while--simulate being assigned to a training role for couple of patrols--
or even brought up before a disciplinary council (as we know happenned late war) and has a 50/50 per cent chance of being shot for "cowardice" or similar

--

loads of stuff--could then be directly linked to the players renown total
you could even alter all the escorts in the game to a higher/lower crew rating according to the players renown--(gameplay job that rather than realism--if it could be done without major surgery--that'd be dynamic- from a purely gameplay point of view)



i dunno..

[JScones]

Yes. I was just thinking about the possibilities that could be opened by just having renown accrue with no decrease.

It could be used to apply any "favour" (for example if +10% over the "average renown figure " concept) or "penalty" (-10%). I think a lot could be done...

[CB..]

it's good stuff--you could even add in specail missions---such as the take this load of sensitive material to brazil etc---strip out all the players torps and send him on a cargo haul job--

massive stuff all round!:up: :ping:

[Georg_Unterberg]

This post in another thread...

got me thinking...


and Hemisent too...

What do others think of this whole concept?

@Hemisent. I can just imagine:
Kaleun: "Umm, Bernhard, where's the u-boat gone?"
Bernhard: "I don't know Kaleun, I swear I left it here! Maybe the repairmen pulled it apart and lost all the pieces? But it is a nice truck they've left us."


Great idea! I'd love to see that in SH3Cmdr. I was waiting for the Cmdr 2.6 to do this myself by randomizing the basic.cfg renown values with a little chance that a value like 99999 would appear to make an upgrade unavailable. (I imagine this would be possible with 2.6).

It would look way better to get a message box at the start of SH3: "Items X and Y are unavailable for upgrades due to supply problems" the same as with crew transfers.
But I would beg Jscones to please make the whole thing optional as some may don't like it - and the randomizations should be configurable (in a cfg) so that we can change the odds if we like to.

All in all a fantastic idea - strong support here :up:

[HawkerT]

Absolutely fantastic ideas Gentlemen!

Being assigned missions and patrol areas not directly sub combat related sounds like a fantastic idea and holds an immense amount of appeal if you ask this armchair admiral.

Stuff like inserting and extracting special ops forces, transporting stuff to far regions of the world, doing special survailance of priority targets like important ports or maybe find and observe/kill priority enemy fleet assets etc.

Absolutely wonderfull stuff Gentlemen. If you can make this happen you will once again have taken this game to a new level.

Excellent ideas Gentlemen!

[Umfuld]

Whether it's called renown, prestisge, favor, it's all the same. And it's used in many war games.

I like it, and don't consider it a 'flaw' at all. You aren't 'buying' anything. Renown doesn't equal money, it equals renown. I'm trying to get NYGM 2.0 running now. But for my first mod I picked GW because I don't understand what they were saying about a tonnage system being more realistic than the renown system. That makes no sense to me.

Ever see the movie Patton? There was a constant battle between him and Monty over fuel. And Monty usually got it, because he had more renown, or 'favor.'

But having said that, I wouldn't mind SH3 Cmdr or something else giving me the abiltiy to tinker with those settings.

[Ducimus]

Heh, one of the first things i ever did when i started tinkering with SH3 was get rid of all renown costs. With no decrease in renown, next thing i did was skyrocket the costs of medals and promotions.

Overall, i think the most intresting use of renown has been done with NYTM tonnage war. It's an intresting idea, and so simple to implement its almost sinful. All they did was make any given ship award the same renown as its tonnage, change the gameplay settings so your at 100% realism (thereby always getting 100% "renown" for sinkings), and then change the game menu from "career renown" to "career tonnage". Then remove renown costs for equipment and jack up renown costs for medals and promos like i had done myself.

Four changes, easilly made. Although i think the foundation of all that was the ship damage mod. Now that was only one idea of using renown, and it was a good one. How else can you use/manipulate that useless renown? I honestly can't think of any. The only other variable to play is how many days a piece of equipment takes to install on your boat.

[CB..]

this is exciting stuff...going a bit over the top here..but here goes--

write special scripted layers containing "specail events" such as a blockade runner heading in from africa/indian ocean--and assign the player a patrol zone along it's path with an order to find it and escort it into port--

not sure wether the triggers options for missions allows for rendevous or keeping a certain ship alive etc but if it was available you could tack those triggers into the scripted layer (if they work in scripted layers?) and bingo--
very over the top i know but as a team effort this sort of thing could be revoltionary---

allowing for unlimited custom scenarios within the normal campaign gameplay--swopping the custom SCR layer into the game as and when the player hits a specific renown percentage above below the averaged level
if the triggers option doesn't work for scripted layers so you can't add specific triggers radio message etc--then i suppose a custom campaign radio message file could be used for that mission--allowing for clear instructions to be given for that particular mission-- the stock one being restored when the mission is completed--or a custom amount of renown being awarded for that mission--negating the need for accumalating tonnage or the normal patrol zone renown requirements--

have to be a major team effort that stuff --but it's good fun to imagine what is do-able with SH3 comander like this:yep: :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I side with Totenkopf and Umfuld on this issue. I've always looked at renown as just that, and I agree that getting the latest and greatest equipment, or even a new boat, is a function of how much pull you have with the Powers That Be. I very rarely upgrade anything, and when I do having it come with a price makes me feel special. On the other hand, I also agree that once you get something you don't become less famous or less liked, so mayby renown shouldn't decrease.

On the other other hand:

Me: "I'd also like to get..."
BdU: "You've had your special treatment for this month; now get out there and kill something!"

[Ducimus]

I wonder if its somehow possible to tie in rank and decorations with equipment availablity without having to use renown to "purchase" equipment.

For example, you start in a B model sub, the C model just becomes avialble, or is maybe in a "prototype" stage, and the kreigsmarine is looking for somone to "field test" the new gear before its "offically" made avialable. Seems to me they'd be looking for an experienced, decorated officer for that sort of "test" work.

[Totenkopf]

A lot of what I see wrong with how Ubisoft attended the renown system is not in what it applies to but the "floating" total. Indeed Steve hit the nail on the head that Ranks, Medals etc should be based not on "current" but "TOTAL" renown. I have looked for the formula to meter this but its lock deep in code that is all but alien to me.

As for this wild idea we are generating. I originaly thought SH3 would be like the issued missions of it's predicessor. I find myself wandering amlessly sometimes just to find something to do. If Jscones could find a way to incorporate custom missions within a war patrol to coincide with proximity and date I would proverbialy cream myself, as that would be the pinacle of what SH is to me.

...... New orders from BdU, proceed to BE 12 and intercept political envoy en route for Liverpool....

:huh:

[snyperAL]

genius.

As for the whole testing out new subs and whatnot, would it be possible to put some err duff ones in there? like engine failures and whatnot.. similar to flight sim. where you take a fresh sub out for a drive and things start going awry with it, and the longer you survive the more stuff gets fixed?


Lol.. the wine is talking i think

[andy_311]

Iv'e stopped useing renown ages ago,as mentioned above in real life whatever armed forces your in they arn't goin to charge you for to blow someone to pieces,.
So I have re-edited my basic.cfg so all the upgrades bateries,boats,conning towers,torps etc so they cost nothing.

[joea]

Didn't the best commanders get first pick on limited supplies of "special" equipment? IE. radar and radar detectors. Regular stuff was a function of supply, and stuff like conning towers would depend on dry dock time...right or wrong?

[Deep Six]

I think the renown system, just doesn't gel with me. As others have said when better equipment became available I'm sure BDU made it first priority to get the equipment to his captains. Maybe the more "Specialised equipment" later in the war would firstly go to Surviving time served captains. That way if I decided to start a career say in late 43 I'm gonna get Nada except for a uboot and a crew, with maybe some commoner garden add-ons....(superchargers,conning towers)

You do your patrol.......You sink shipping.........You SURVIVE the early "Good Times. Darl D loves you and gives what is available......End of suggestion. :up:


Deep Six

[Umfuld]

I'm sure BDU made it first priority to get the equipment to his captainsBut that's the point. If you get two new subs, state of the art, but have 10 captains, renown is how you would decide who gets them.

In regards to rank, yes, it's a stupid system.

[JScones]

But that's the point. If you get two new subs, state of the art, but have 10 captains, renown is how you would decide who gets them.
In theory yes. But let's just add an element of reality here... From 1943 on it just may not be possible to get that flash new snorkel <insert any new component here> to Kaleun #1 over in France, thus it finds its way to Kiel and some lucky nondescript Kaleun.

Guys, I think this is a very productive thread. Keep your thoughts coming! :up:

[HEMISENT]

Jaesen, do I get a whiff of Commander 2.6 1/2 possibly buzzing around out there?

[Deep Six]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umfuld
But that's the point. If you get two new subs, state of the art, but have 10 captains, renown is how you would decide who gets them.


Agree in real life terms, but there again in SH3 there is only ONE life to consider, your own. If this was a truly AI driven game with AI driven captains competing for upgrades then yes your argument stands, but this ain't happening, so I suppose that's where the renown system comes into play, your competing against the GAME, not against other captains. I really don't like the way the game dishes out its menu of upgrades.....but until a solution can be found by way of modding by the "Genius Crew" that we have on these boards were stuck with it.....I'm all for ditching the present system for something simpler...In that you get what you want, up to a certain point then depending on random factors as discussed on this thread...i.e....Sabotage.....Geo graphics.....Roll of the die.......Prestige..Then I'm For that system......:up: :up: :up:


Deep Six

[Ducimus]

In theory yes. But let's just add an element of reality here... From 1943 on it just may not be possible to get that flash new snorkel <insert any new component here> to Kaleun #1 over in France, thus it finds its way to Kiel and some lucky nondescript Kaleun.

Guys, I think this is a very productive thread. Keep your thoughts coming! :up:


Theres a point there. In a way i can see how renown (as annoying as it is) acutally comes into play. real life scenario, say your in the military, stationed oversea's. You go to supply to draw something out. Supply says their out of it.

Reality check here is when it comes to the good stuff in supply, more often then not, theres not enough of it. So often, you ahve to make do without. Thats a fact. Improvise is word that most military are well aware of.

But heres the thing, just because the supply sgt says their out of it, doesnt mean they really are. If its a hot item, and he's only got 1 or 2 left of it, he's not likely to hand it to the first schmoe who comes walking through his door. More likely then not, he'll save it for one of his buddy's as a favor. thats how the military works more ofthen then not. You scratch my back, ill scratch yours. For example, this comm unit neede to run some cables. But they didnt have a backhoe to dig the hole. My unit did. We dug their hole, and in return we got 4 hours in an F4 simulator. Thats renown at work. Not that i agree with renown in SH3 as a game mechanic.

[Totenkopf]

Well, you could say "it's just a game" and chuck anything in to make your job easier, quicker and more convenient. Choosing 10% realism is another choice I suppose. But the idea here is that we are trying to build a more involved and challenging game. :-?

"your competing against the GAME"

Indeed. The game is limited in scope, interaction, randomness, and just plain Murphy's law appeal, but we can at least try and make it rewarding. This is the intent of renown, altho tonnage is now replacing that. However, there was more to war than "Hey! you sank a 50,000 ton ship! Congratulations here is a new boat, and crew, and a medal, and a rank....." Successful patrols and missions builds renown and subsequently more favor, so there was indeed another form of becoming a Captain of renown than just high score.

Still, some will like renown and some won't no matter what we do. Perhaps we should start a new therad called "How we CAN do a better reward system" than weither we should or not.:hmm: