We just do not have the convoys correct! What can we do?

[Wulfmann]

I have really played with improving the RND file in an attempt at realism.
While I can state mine is much more difficult I know it does not properly mirror what a real U-Boat went through.
But, is it even possible?

The heart of the U-Boat war was the convoy battles. That is also where we lack realism more than any other area in SH3, IMO

In 1943 there could be as many as 30 escorts for a convoy followed by a hunter killer group ready to take over as each group of 3 or 4 escorts kept a U-Boat down. They could then return to their convoy work and let the killers finish the job as planes circled above.

We can not do that.

For one, we are alone, there are no other wolfs to relieve us by attacking the other side.
Not only that the escorts simply drop their DCes on your position nearly every time.
After 3 ½ hours last night my boat was sunk but oddly there were no DCes exploding when the damaged occurred. Was gibt es hier? I cannot guess as to what happened, explosions did not give off sound this time?

I had made this a carefully watched series of attacks to try and ascertain what actually happened. I remained at 240 meters the entire time and each time I heard splashes I would go flank speed and turn either 45% or 90% and every time the bombs exploded where I would have been had I not turned.
Or, I did stints at slow speed and turned in the same way.
I remained in silent mode
This worked for the entire time every time.

Some specs
GW 1.1 (without the 1.1 basic cfg so I don’t have to worry about saves at the wrong time)
My GW RND is modified for many more escorts as well as other convoy tweaks.
All escorts are veteran (crew rating =3) in my RND from beginning to end..
The 1943-45 convoys have at least 2 escorts on each side and at the rear or 7 escorts total (this one had 8).

It should be expected in this time period for 3 to 4 A/S ships to be attacking you. But, they always drop right on top of you and that is simply not realistic.

So, is there a way to make them less sure of your position? Going and staying silent means you move slower but not once did it prevent them from making perfect drops only that the drops ended up exploding closer to my turned position and did not prevent them from dropping on my new position, silent or flank ahead.

I would like to find a way to actually have real convoy attacks, with real possibilities.
That means 20-25 escorts ringing them making it hell but if 7 escorts are impossible then what is the point?

My next project RND will be to double the escorts and make them all 2 rated crews. Just to see what will happen and how.

I have tried less escorts but the fact is we can homi the sole flank escort, attack the merchants and reload the stern tube with another T5 in time for the other escort to be in range. (Usually the lead and far escort will not intervene in a large convoy)
Results?
Very unrealistic but, more satisfying for those that want to win PC games.

Does anyone know of a way to mix up the DC drops so they are not so accurate therefore more realistic?
What files dictate the DC accuracy?
It seems something should control this.
There needs to be a way to improve this so we can replicate the 1943-45 convoy era better.

Any ideas? Anyone, anyone??

Wulfmann

[FUBAR295]

Wulfmann,

It is not so much the destroyers accuracy, but the trick to avoid them altogether. I think your staying at 240 meters has some bearing with your problem also, as it may be to deep and not leaving enough room to go deeper if needed before hitting crush depth.

You may want to try this :
After firing off your eels, dive immediately at flank to 180 meters and off to the right or left between 35 and 90 degrees away from the closest Destroyer. Don't hang around to see what happens. Listen for any hits. Once at 180 meters go to silent and ahead slow. Once alerted that DCs have hit the water dive to 200 meters or slightly more at full speed and alter course 35 to 45 degrees and try to get between the Destroyers and the convoy. At 200 meters continue at full until all the DC's have gone off, usually above and behind. Slow back down to slow and come back up to 180 meters, continue working your way toward the convoy, using their background noise ( not sure if the AI is fooled by this to any degree if at all, but it helps me stay in contact with the convoy and not falling to far behind it). Also, try not to make to many extreme turns which causes you to lose any headway you have on the Destroyers. Continue this process until well away from the destroyers or they lose contact and leave.

I have had much success using this tactic with two destroyers. One or two additional destroyers do cause problematic issues with getting clear of all of them, it takes way longer. I have at times experienced being kept submerged before the air or batteries give out, so the tactic is not foolproof.

Hope this help.

Good Hunting,
FUBAR

[Wulfmann]

Ah well, I was only using one example from one mission. I have been rebuilding the RND.mis file and using different mods to try and duplicate what real U-Boats recorded as to how they dealt with things.
You did not relay any relevant information such as what you escort crew ratings are. Are you referring to 1944? 1939?
I have been playing this everyday for over a year and tweaking constantly in search of historic comparability not just a way to beat the game. I could edit the files to beat the game. I want to get results that compare with reality. That is my point.
I seriously doubt, (no offence intended) that you have attacked a 1944 convoy with 8 veteran rated escorts and have 4 take turns making their runs. I have lasted over 4 hours and have also slipped away. About one time in 5.
PM your email add and I will send you a RND mis file that I assure you what you suggested will not only not work you will feel much more like a read from Iron Coffins or Das Boot.
My problem is that I can make it too hard but not as accurate as what I read. I would like to have 20 escorts in a 1943 convoy and be able to attack in some manner from outside and not have escorts that always drop right on my spot and always at the depth I am at.
Yes I have tried changing the depth up and down. Yes I have hidden in a convoy. I have tried all kinds of things but when they do not conform to what real U-Boats did I am playing a PC game not simulating a convoy attack and that is what I am trying to tweak.
I am wondering if there is a way to alter the settings on depth charging so they are not so accurate for both position and depth.
I am not trying to succeed in a mission. I am trying to make it so more realistic events occur than presently do.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

how does the game respond to the adding of extra destroyers marked as escort=false

this might be a way to bump up the numbers to realistic levels
(on a percentage of convoys that did have much higher numbers of escorts than stock--alledgedly just to avoid getting into some tedious realism debate about this)
would be eye candy only -- sadly having realistic numbers of escorts just results in relative anarchy..

possible experiments to try?

no doubt allready tried but---

greater ship spacing to allow for higher number of active escorts..
specific additional escorts with reduced sensor capacity turning circle top speed etc to make up the numbers..
greater use of crew capacity on additional escorts to even out the difficulty--crew capacity of novice etc on additional escorts--
expert on remaining DD's

removal of most of the DC capacity on additional escorts--
i agree most convoys i've read about had huge amounts of escorts well above stock numbers..some convoys had more escorts than merchants...or at least the balance was pretty close..50/50 60/40 70/30 etc etc

i did pretty much the same thing as you i went thru the RND file and added at least two extra escorts to every convoy..(what a job argghh) any more and the gameplay just got so messy that the atmosphere was lost..

[Wulfmann]

Some good points.
Having too many veteran crewed escorts insure your destruction no matter what. But, that happens at 7 escorts One in the lead and 2 on each flank..
What I search for is something that better resembles reality. I believe reducing the sensors is worth a try because in so doing we can increase the number of escorts.
We can have 20 and that does not cause a traffic jam because they simply fan out which would also be somewhat real.
Increasing the ship spacing makes it less real as they were never as wide as we need to have them. Adding more columns is real but places the wing escorts too far away to respond as if they do not know a ship was sunk at all.
I want the escorts coming after me. I want a bunch of them but I don’t want them to drop DCes like they are fire and forget homing cans. I love it extremely difficult but I want a chance and I want it in a manner than simulates reality (as we believe it is from what sources tell us)
I will run the first patrols tonight on the escort increased number/reduced crew rating to all “2� and see what happens.
I am betting further senor quality will need reduction.
Foe me the fun is in 1943-45 where the competition is tough!
Wulfmann

[Myxale]

After reading you Kaleun-Buffs i always feel so motivated.

:rock:

Keep us posted so we can see if this is the right direction to go. I always wondered if there is a chance to add realistic numbers of DD's to a convoy. Without messing the traffic up to or the AI silly.

Good luck!

[FUBAR295]

Wulfmann,

I understand what your getting at, but at present, I feel there are certain limitations that is within SHIII that prevents your narvana regardless of how you tweak, into your envisioned simulation toward realism. I admire your drive towards that end. Myself, I am not to terribly technically savy regarding the current programming of SHIII, though I do have some understanding of it. I leave the tinkering to others more talented in that aspect. I will PM you as I would like to try out your RND file and my way of tactics.

CB makes a very valid points to having realistic escort numbers. I also feel that the AI currently can not be altered correctly to avoid pinpoint drops. From my understanding it is either pinpoint drops or a very stupid AI with no real middle ground. No challenge with a dummied up AI, so I rather deal with the pinpoint drops and develope tactics to deal with it. The same issue was experienced with SHII, the uber Destroyers, but CB came up with a great file which made the escort behavior more realistic, but not perfect to what you have in mind. I believe Teddy Bar and crew will be looking looking at the escort behavior in the near future. Maybe their fix and your tweaking, you will come up with something close to what you envision.

Regarding your scenario, I am speaking of veteran Destroyer crews and using this tactic from 1939 to 1945 and 100% realism with NYGM TW. With three or more escorts on you, your chances of survival become slim but no impossible, more than three, it is very problematic, which I like as a mental work out, but try my very best to avoid. It is not a fool proof tactic by any means as I have indicated earlier and do not claim it to be, with a diminishing success rate as the war goes on. That is, I believe, what was built into SHIII by the developers. I see also, you have developed and or tried something simular. This formula of tactics works best for me and has been proven to be the most effective. It may be I have a better knack with it as opposed to others, I do not know. No offense taken, but you have no idea of how or what my game play entails or what I have encountered, I am not one to go about bragging. Yes, I have survived the mass gang up by escorts, which gives one a great deal of satisfaction. And, yes I have not survived those gang ups also to my great disappointment. I too have experimented with various other tactics with less than satisfactory results. What I do currently works the best for me given the current parameters within SHIII as I have it set up. And just maybe it may not work well or not at all with your tweaking, that I look forward to trying.

Good Hunting,
FUBAR

[Wulfmann]

It is certainly too early to judge by one patrol on my first camapign with this RND.mis file.

But I would rate this one of the five best patrols I have ever done.

What I did was edit every escort both in convoys and hunter groups to 2 crew rating from veteran 3 in the RND. I then added 3-5 more escorts for each convoy meaning a 1944 (The year I started) has 9-12 escorts.
I left all the SCR and single patrol ships 3 as well as the lead DD in each hunter group (plus one more in every other hunter group).

I sank a C3 loner on the way out before intercepting a convoy.
Because ithe convoy kept turning I was not able to make contact until nearly midnight. There were so many escorts in the screen all I could do was fire a long range fan. So long the 2 FATIIs did not reach it and turned away before the merchants.
But, I scored one hit and disabled a tanker.
I took out one escort with a T5 and tried to zig zag my way to get at the tanker.
I fired 2 T3s at a DE to sink it and sank another DD with the reloaded T5 before I put my last fish into the tanker, thankfully. With 3 escorts sunk that still meant plenty for revenge and I felt like a magnet with hordes of DDs acting like junk metal.
I dove to 260meters.
Since these were 2 rated I hoped they would be a bit easier on me but not too much. They were hardly any less potent than a 3 rated but they were just enough. After 3 real hours 3 had returned to the convoy and that left one that hounded me. Then a lone DD joined so this was likely a 3 rated and those two worked me over for over 2 more real hours..
My batteries were low and I went to one knot for the last half hour but it might be they simply ran out of cans to drop but after 5 1/2 hours of depth charging I limped away badly damaged but I made it home with 18,400 tons (I lowered the T2 to 7K tons)

The idea is that this was a realistic patrol for Feb 1944 in that I was hammered did some but little real damage to the allied war effort and survived but barely. I would like to think this is typical but it might just be a fluke.
I am pretty good with 2 attackers as my sonar man can track one and I the other so will stay that one step ahead. But, I do not believe I made one serious mistake and believe I could have easily been sunk,
Will this take the edge of the vet escorts while the larger numbers off set that to make convoy attacks in late war more real?
I can't say but I will say this was at least as much as I could have hoped for and if it pans out will be the best reality I have tasted.
But, it is way too soon.
5 1/2 hours is the longest I have ever survived a depth charging.
All in all the DDs seemed deadly but not so much that I felt helpless (I actually thought they would get me, though)

Wulfmann

[Myxale]

Is there any way i can partake in testing this file of your's. This sounds so cool.
And like the Avon Lady stated once "...we need all the suffering we can get..."
And this sounds like a helluva of suffering! :hmm:

[Uber Gruber]

I'd be up for testing it as well...need to do something while I wait for WaW II to start.

Cheers...

[Wulfmann]

PM your emails but it will be a few days as I have to make sure this has no bugs. I did a major re-edit of the RND and a single mistake causes CTD. I must start careers in various periods to find this out as RND edit show when you load a patrol.
Note, this is a GW modded Rnd. You must at least have the ships and stuff from GW to use this RND
I have developed many ways to check the files quickly but that is not proof.
Like I said, this was one patrol and may have been unusual.
However, the fact it seemed to be the direction I was hoping for is at the least, somewhat promising.
If a few more patrols are similar I will be very pleased. If not, it will be a big let down.
Of course the fact I was held under for 51/2 hours real time (not counting the extra hour to wait until there was no further warship sound) makes testing a longer process than when you are killed in 20 minutes!
I noticed in the U-Boat books I have bought that if a boat can get deep it has a decent survival chance. Most boats were damaged on or near the surface. Not that many were not sunk deep as well. But since only one in every seven boats returned in 1944 and most were sunk by aircraft it seems that if we can get deep we should have a better chance to survive than we have been having.
As I think I have been interpreting.

Wulfmann

[r_wagner]

Hey Wulfmann, I have grown tired of the dodgy AI and want to get DC'ed for a change. Do you mind sharing your work? :know: I can then give you some feedback on it if you're interested...

I am currently running GW, NYGM, EUC so if that works I would love to have a go! :up:

[Wulfmann]

PM me an email address I will send you one that is already known tested.

Wulfmann

[gdogghenrikson]

UM........what about improved convoys mod

[gouldjg]

Wulfmann

CB has already dropped you a massive hint to get what you want,

You have two ways of reducing pin points

1. Set min ranges on your passives and actives so DD get blind spots on last approach

or

2. Adjust the turn rates of the DD = DD can no longer turn on a sixpence and subsequently have to drop their loads at random points near the players resulting in a more realsistic supression experiences if that is really what you want. If one class has wide turn rate and another has normal then you get mixtures. Each ship can be seperate.

Be careful though, when playing with this second option, I ended up pinned for 11 game hours and ended up out of commpressed air. Although it would indicate a method to get the ideal and close to history DC experiences, I simply do not want to be pinned under for 11+hours so will leave that for the guys who do.

Balance and much testing needs to be done but there is room for that method to get what you want within reason. It is just how realistic do you really want to go??

I tried an experiment on Gibralta mission and after 7 hours managed to look like I was getting out and free, the DD stopped searching and headed back to their patrol points, it was a shame i was in the way cos they picked me up again and I spent another 4 hours before I got bored and tired from concentrating too hard:88) .

[mike_espo]

Wulfmann

CB has already dropped you a massive hint to get what you want,

You have two ways of reducing pin points

1. Set min ranges on your passives and actives so DD get blind spots on last approach

or

2. Adjust the turn rates of the DD = DD can no longer turn on a sixpence and subsequently have to drop their loads at random points near the players resulting in a more realsistic supression experiences if that is really what you want. If one class has wide turn rate and another has normal then you get mixtures. Each ship can be seperate.

Be careful though, when playing with this second option, I ended up pinned for 11 game hours and ended up out of commpressed air. Although it would indicate a method to get the ideal and close to history DC experiences, I simply do not want to be pinned under for 11+hours so will leave that for the guys who do.

Balance and much testing needs to be done but there is room for that method to get what you want within reason. It is just how realistic do you really want to go??

I tried an experiment on Gibralta mission and after 7 hours managed to look like I was getting out and free, the DD stopped searching and headed back to their patrol points, it was a shame i was in the way cos they picked me up again and I spent another 4 hours before I got bored and tired from concentrating too hard:88) .

Wow!:o Never had an experience remotely like that. It seems even with RuB 1.45, and hollywood's and NYGM damage mods installed, and with my editing of the SIM.CFG file so noise levels of escorts are 0.37, I still never have more than a 1-2 hour encounter with an escort. I will either escape before that time or get destroyed. Just go silent drop bold and most of the time, the stupid AI just circles at 1-2 knots about 1 or 2 km behind. I am long gone....:nope: It is a bloddy shame that the development of this sim did not include a ASDIC search pattern for escorts....really a crime. :down:

How do you change turning circle of escorts???? that may help.

[gouldjg]

Mike

Timetravellers tools will help. Rudder drag is the key. Very early WIP from a conversation between CB and GW whom pointed me in the direction of possible ways. CB is onto something, thats for sure. Its just one of those things that is hard to communicate so I think he is secretly working:cool:.

Basically a wider turn radius means a longer supression and also gets rid of some of the pin points therefore can start to use stock sonar arcs again and slightly good ubers to compensate.

Another side effect is that DD has to think its route to player a lot more and a lot of different angled attacks.

There is a number of ways to take advantage of this. GW will probably look into it a lot further.

Problem to balance is what happens if only one DD attacks and he has wider turn. This then could make him look worse than before etc etc so a variety of various tweaks is needed to comensate certain things.

I was originally thinking about no crew repair options as implemented by NYGM which I think will blow some players socks off and have to take my hat of to Der Teddy for seeing the potential and implementing a wild idea into a reality.

I wanted time to enjoy new longer repairing functions so wanted to get rid of same old boring attack routine of the DD which means DC drops every 4 minutes or so and then they are always on subs tail leaving little time to really enjoy the longer repairs.

Just needs testing fully to see potential flaws and workarounds so not ready or in fact a mod yet. Just a direction some should consider.

Current game = every DD turns the same circle = gets predictable no matter what sensor set up is established.

Hopeful game = Different sized attack circles simulate a more organised attack from Hunt groups and no more DD group huddles ets etc.

Lot of maths etc etc so fingers crossed for the future.

[Wulfmann]

G, excuse my ignorance but an explanation on how to do either of what you suggest would be very nice.

I am curious as to what solution you would want so you do not have to go through long DCing that would allow a reasonable experience.
I admit the 14 hours last week under and then another 11 was not exiting but I agree it is because the DD could not lose me if he tried.
I would love to reduce the sweep and increase the blind spots so only 3 enemies could keep me under and 2 or less would have to give up. But, what does that.
I look at the tools and do not see that option to change.
I have hex edited in other games but this looks very different to me.

I do not see a turning radius anywhere in the files. Where are they?

When one does not know how to do it saying do it is not quite enough. Hints don’t work, instructions required!

Maybe it is right in front of me and I should trip on it but I do not see it!

Wulfmann

[CB..]

i think the problem with increasing the numbers of escorts for a convoy in the RND file is that we don't have control over where the escorts appear--all we get is the option to position them as escorts--the game seems to decide where to put them--

in a single mission you can place the escorts in a usable pattern--give the convoy a wide screen a little further out than normal and a close screen in the normal stock postions i have been using a test mission with 10 escorts gaurding 13 merchants and it never looks messy or gets out of hand

this would involve having a quick way to work out the lat long co-ordinates for the non stock escort positions--
say type in the lat long and heading of the lead ship (which is given inthe RND file) and get the lat long position for a escort placed about 5-8 thousand metres either side of that location- then we could add these extra escorts by hand editing giving them exact locations as they do seem to keep to them as they go along--mind you i'm not sure if the RND will accept this approach and it's a heck of a big job---even on the stock RND which has 58 major named convoys to edit

if you have timetravellor editing tools you can open the ai_sensors.dat and edit all the sensors thru there--giving the sensors larger blind spots at the rear can help avoid the uber long encounters as will increasing the minimum range so you enter their blind spot as they begin their high speed DC run-

giving you a short window to make some more violent maneuvering going to flank etc
if there are a gaggle of Dd's around you you need the blind spot more than against a solo attack--

there is a quick way to try things out without silent running if you find that a bit too much of a cloaking device but it does rather throw things right to the other extreme

if you go into the comands_en.cfg (cfg folder)

and find this entry

;[Cmd153]
;Name=Rig_for_silent_running
;Ctxt=1
;MnID=0x3F0F0006
;Str=1003

you can comment it out as i have done and it disables all the rig for silent running shortcuts--

this is rather like givng the DD's the key to your front door tho in game--i was shocked at how uber they became-- needs a more subtle answer
but an experiment

G's the guy for the turning cirle stuff---

[Ducimus]

I ended up pinned for 11 game hours and ended up out of commpressed air.

I've been under the compressed air is broken. Unless i blow ballast in emergency surface, the compressed air guage never budges.

[gouldjg]

Using Timetravellers tool open the uboat sim files and go to propulsion options.

Bottom 2 line = drag rudder and another drag thing just underneath it. I have uninstalled my game so cannot give you exact name but you will see it.

You will note that all ships are pretty much the same setting for drag.

So I thinks to myself, what would happen if I make it so DD turn wider circles?. Vonhelsing gives me a initial start number but not much difference in game so I went crazy and tried 0.007 for drag rudder and 0.01 for the one underneath.

I then put stock sensors back on default everything as far as sonar arcs, min ranges and hydrophones are concerned.

I then added a xtra 1000 mtre to each sensor and try the Gibraltar mission cos usually the DD all get into a group huddle and do not space out which makes evasion quite easy considering the number of DD.

Now what was noted was that the DD were taking wider turns and this therefore increases their search range making it quite probable to keep getting caught by active again especially when more than one ship attacks.

They all piled in as normal but now were doing much wider sweeps so it was extremely difficult trying to get into blind spots and reach a safe distance but at one point I did and did escape, only to be picked up again cos I went the wrong direction.

Now admittingly this 0.007 was probably way too much for earlier war DD as they were unable to get fast line ups for DC runs so all were pretty of the mar and spitting in the wrong places. They had no hedgehogs etc just rack at back. Although it was probably quite realistic in the way the DC should be no good at that time anyway, gamewise it was too boring and so was the long attack.

If I were to try and get a varied attack and time to enjoy the new longer sub repairs, I would consider looking into the turn radius of the DD/DE and making it fit for the convoys.

For me personally, it would be a mixture e.g. one ship class was a wider turn but better sensors and another was normal turn radius but normal or slightly nerfed sensors.

It does not make DD more aggressive etc but it does make them look totally different than the normal boring uber turning stay within 800 mtr circle that current stock game has.

I see potential in it and will be going down this road in the future.

In fact, here is a list of what I HOPE may work but am not claiming this as a super solution as it may all go pear shaped.

1. We have 7 types of actives and 7 types of passives in the game to cover the war for various ships.

2. I only look at this game as early war and late war so am not really fussed about ships having individual sensors and 1941 being different than 1942. I am sure many players just think; damn I am under attack and that’s it.

So

If I use 1 active for early war and 1 for late =2 types of sensors

Then 1 passive for early war and 1 for late = 2 types of sensors

= 4 sensors used and 10 possible spare sensors to configure to what I want them to do.

I then decide on which ships to give wider turning radius and which to just vary slightly so I get different attack patterns. I am not going to be saying to myself "oh look that DD is turning wide", I am just going for the escape.

On the wider ships, I give better sensors so they act as the sub shadows or commander of the ASW action whom makes sure the sub does not have a easy way out.

On the narrow turning, ships I give other set of sensors but nerf the min ranges of sensors. These are the killers

That’s my plan but there are a 1001 ways to view how to be attacked.

Some people just want better sensors on the ships so they get challenged, some want historic situation simulated i.e. 5 hour attacks and some just want a 10 min bash and crash.

I cannot say look at this, it will be great cos it may not be for you or anyone else.

All I can say is that turn radius can drastically change the DD experience but it is too early to tell what side effects need to be also considered.

Suggest you try tweaking the rudder drag etc and have a look for yourself in the game and report back here on your thoughts.

CB has the ideas on how to make DD's more aggressive, I just want to make them more varied and less predictable.

I also want a nice timing between DC attacks so I can use the NYGM sub with longer repairs to its full extent.

At the moment, because DD turn so fast and such small circles, player has little time to make long repairs and get the fun.

Hope this helped more than it confused.

[gouldjg]

I've been under the compressed air is broken. Unless i blow ballast in emergency surface, the compressed air guage never budges.

I had a destroyed propeller after a early dc and cos I was going so slow I seemed to be sinking all the time so had to keep blowing ballast now and again to get me back to a decent depth.

I did not want to end the game early cos I was seeing if i could infact escape and that it was not infact a condition where it was immpossible to escape from.

Trust me, I did not sit on pc for 11 hours and most of my moves were in X8 speed. I tell you, it was bloody tireing trying to find the gaps where I could accellerate without the rest hearing me. A little too much inho.

The normal air and battery was about 2 third full as was pretty much on silent most of the time. It was the default 90 sonar arc picking me back up again each time.

[Wulfmann]

CB, I don't find the escort location a big problem. I have added many escorts and if anything the way SH3 does it works better with more than less.
It is rather predictable.
The hierarchy is DD, DE, Frigate, Corvette and armed trawler.
Higher rated of those will lead and starboard convoy flank gets next, then rear and port convoy flank gets the lowest on the totem pole of the social order.
The only thing I feel it could improve on is the lead DD. This is always one in the middle where as in real life there would be 3 sweeping. Also there would be sweepers farther ahead and of course a hunter group behind the convoy half way to the next convoy following.
The order is one in front 2 each side and 2 to the rear. if you go beyond 7.
The flanks first add one even further out if more than 7 escorts making a side approach much more tricky as you must cut across two forward looking escorts. That is realistic, IMO.
I want to have 12-20 escorts but reduce their effectiveness to represent the real threat not the uber threat. SH3 uses 2-6 escorts at most so makes them each a group in effect and that just does not play to history.

“If you have timetravellor editing tools you can open the ai_sensors.dat and edit all the sensors thru there--giving the sensors larger blind spots at the rear can help avoid the uber long encounters as will increasing the minimum range so you enter their blind spot as they begin their high speed DC run-“

Ok, I have looked at this and all I see is a jumbled hex file. Which tool do I use and what am I looking for specifically? Sorry, It might be I just overlooked it but I really have missed this as to what to do.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

The hierarchy is DD, DE, Frigate, Corvette and armed trawler.
Higher rated of those will lead and starboard convoy flank gets next, then rear and port convoy flank gets the lowest on the totem pole of the social order.


i didn't know that that's good news :up:

here's a link to time travellors site for the tools to edit the sensors etc

http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm

use G's rudder dragtrick aswell to reduce turning circle reduce lostcontact time in the sim.cfg significantly as this will lower the chances of you getting attacked by 6 DD's at once etc--try 2 minutes or less with a large numbers of escort -

see how you go on with TT's tolls they should be reasonably straight forward

[Ducimus]

In one of the NYGM threads, it was stated that the AI can only have one sonar active at a time. If i interppreted what i read correctly, that means an escort will be either in active mode, or passive mode, but not both at the same time. So if hes not listening, he *should* be pinging. The problem is, they rarely do. But this would explain some of the dumb behavior we see, wouldn't it?

So an idea hit me, and it might be feasible, it's hinged on One important thing.

Escorts communitcating to each other. (IE if one gets a fix on your position, the other escort knows where you are based on the other escorts findings). Now if this is what happends, then you could concievably reconfigure escorts to work in teams in specalized rolls. For example, make DD's use only passive sonar. Make DE's use only active sonar. Pair them together. I've yet to follow up on this idea, but assuming it works, it would require an extensive rework of every convoy in the RND layer to make sure escorts are properly paired with each other.

[Wulfmann]

I have used TT]s tools since they came out but I do not see how to use the one for the library stuff. It calls for txt files so if I change the dat to txt it then says it could not open it because it is not {*txt} well, you can't rename them like that as it then won't list them as assessable for the tool. I know I am just not seeing something.
I have opened them with my hex editor but I only find 2 two digit numbers in the whole file both are 20. Is that pair the ones that can be played with? They were in the sonar reference (This is the AI_Sensor file I am referring to)

I do wonder since this seems to be a critical aspect of us getting to the bottom of more reality why someone does not make a set of these all varied from where they are to way to easy (not release them) and have some test them so we can figure where the medium is. It muse also be considered that raising or lowering the crew efficiency might alter the whole thing again.

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

I am looking at the sim file for a DE and frankly I do not see what values relate to the rudder. It shows the rudder, I just don't get the values. It is simply a different type of hex values than I am use to so do not get it!
I had a US DE chasing my XXI and it followed me through turns like I was towing it with a pole. I was doing flank 17knts.

I believe the later types that have or get K-Guns and hedge hogs could do for a 20 percent reduction in turn radius. I still think there should be some serious multiple testing of the sensor arcs. It should be that one has a hard time staying with you if you stay silent and turn away. 2 should be difficult and 3 should be able to stay with you.
Because SH3 usually has most leave after 2 hours, rarely will there be 2 after 2 hours that means if you can stay on top of things for 2 hours you can slip away. I agree the 14 hour thing, while real, is not game sense viable. But, IMO.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

I have used TT]s tools since they came out but I do not see how to use the one for the library stuff. It calls for txt files so if I change the dat to txt it then says it could not open it because it is not {*txt} well, you can't rename them like that as it then won't list them as assessable for the tool. I know I am just not seeing something.
I have opened them with my hex editor but I only find 2 two digit numbers in the whole file both are 20. Is that pair the ones that can be played with? They were in the sonar reference (This is the AI_Sensor file I am referring to)

I do wonder since this seems to be a critical aspect of us getting to the bottom of more reality why someone does not make a set of these all varied from where they are to way to easy (not release them) and have some test them so we can figure where the medium is. It muse also be considered that raising or lowering the crew efficiency might alter the whole thing again.

Wulfmann


if your using the TTanalyser
you load a set of rules
then you click test
-the contents apear in the right hand window
you select the section you wish to edit by clicking on it--
it appears bottom left
edit that's it

if you get this far then remember to move the back up copy the program makes from the library folder--'cos the game seems to prefer to read this one -rather than your modded one --remove the Copy_of file and it will run your modded file

TT's mini tweaker is self explanatory--and does the same job

[Wulfmann]

Don't hate me because I am ignorant!!!:rotfl:

Load a set of rules?????

I see that and stare at it in wonderment knowing there is a simple explanation realizing I am one step short of simple!!:roll:

From the read me;
"Start SH3 File Analyzer, oad a rul from the \Rules folder, and and look through
the file's values. Rules define the structure of each file, the placement of the
file's values, and can be written or modified at any time by you."

The problem I am having is there are no rules in the rule folder. There might be a duh answer to this but I seem to also be one step short of "duh" :hmm:

Answering this may very well dictate how I will be spending a lot of time testing and editing for the near future and hopefully have some results that improve relaism, whatever that is!

I do appraciate the tutoring.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

ahh sorry Wulfman :oops: yes the rules are a seperate download (should be shown on the same page as the analyser download--read the blurb and it'll show you where the rules are (im sure they are onthe same page)

its the same with the mini tweaker program

you need the tweak files which tells the program how to read the game files--

have a good read of the page the downloads are on first then download the tweaks and rule depending on which program you want to use--then extract the rules into the prgrams rules/tweaks folder

then you can run the program --click load rules/tweaks

select the one you want (AI_Sensors etc)

with the analazer you then click "test rules"
and select the entry from the right hand panel by clicking on it
you can then edit it in the bottom left windows selcting update value when your done--
with the tweaker
you have a drop down list top left which
displays options in the main window which can then be edited on the right selecting up date value when done--

i hope that helps a bit --but download the rules/tweaks and install them into the rules/tweaks folders in the program
rules in the analzer/rules folder
tweaks in the tweaker/tweaks folder

keep trying you'll get the jist of it--:yep: :up:

[mike_espo]

Just downloaded TTs tweak tool. Changed rudder drag settings to 0.007 and now AI is dumber than ever.....they make 3 or 4 inept passes and leave...just as before.:nope:

I did test with Flower corvette. Winter of 1943. Noise level at 0.39 No hedgehogs. Single encounter. Probably will work better in multiple encounters. :hmm:

I unfortunately cannot see a solution to this problem: unless someone can come up with a mod to allow AI escorts to do an ASDIC search, I think we are gonna be stuck with an AI that once loses hydrophone contact, will stay in the area and allow a boat on silent running to simply escape.:down:

[Ducimus]

Play with the noise and wave factors in the sim.cfg. Tweak those enough and silent running wont help anymore. :D

If i remmeber correctly, noise factor default is 1. Loweriing it to 0.5 turns up the volume for the AI. Wave factor (again if i remember correctly) works in the opposite direction, default is 0.5. So a value of like 0.75 might make you easier to hear.

0.5 or 0.4 noise factor
0.6 or 0.75 wave factor,

im willing to bet will make the AI hear more in their hydrophones. If you want to go extreme try
0.3 noise factor and 0.8 wave factor and see how audible you are to the AI.

[gouldjg]

Just downloaded TTs tweak tool. Changed rudder drag settings to 0.007 and now AI is dumber than ever.....they make 3 or 4 inept passes and leave...just as before.:nope:


Yes Mike you are right in the sense that 0.007 is a bit too much and does not yet solve the ai issue. I had ubered my sensors slightly in my tests. Uber meant xtra 1000-2000 on ranges and stock arcs and stock sim.cfg. That and the fact I tested Gibralta. The whole point was to show that different turn rates have different effects and avoid group huddles and if done right, could have the potential to widen the dd covering ground when combined with killers etc.

Like I said, it has to be looked at properly and cannot just expect that this solves the ai cos it dont.

The point is that they take longer and thus make wider turns. If you uber their sensors more than average, they do and can be used as shadows which makes the hunting ground larger and more varied. This is all going to be about ship selection, combination and sensor use.

Listen all,

Hydrophones are the primary detector unless you are within active range (Well observed gould you noob).

Hydrophones in this game use the subs RPM as their primary number and things like wave and noise act as the nerfs.

CB, Dumicus, DT and probably many others already know this and have worked on it for some time.

I guess that over the next few weeks, you will find many adjusted mods concerning hydrophones and the fact that they will now probably start to be able to detect silent running subs. That good progress as far as the ability to just go silent and remain cloaked is now gone.

Actives are run by surface area and some tweaks on that may vary them also.

We spent so long messing with the actual ranges and arcs etc (I did anyway) It could have been as simple as turning up RPM and then adjusting wave and noise.

I think Dumicus and CB got this idea before anyone else. I would see what NYGM have done but after reading their description they too may have already cottened onto it also.


It seams logical to get a stable Hydrophone setting that gives the DD more intelligence and gets rid of the hiding under silent running all the time threfore DDs not going to hunter state.

Personally, I am waiting for what either CB, Dumicus or NYGM have produced and seeing their methods. I do think were are getting very close to a decent methodology for passives though.

I dont know how people feel about the actives. I think they work but they work too well at times. I want it back to their natural arc 90 degrees but may change surface area to see if i can get a hit and miss situation.

CB may have found something good but he is testing it out.

The big problem with this game IMHO, is that the DEV team really wanted it to be precise by the sence that they added so many various sensors.

Just stick to two parts of the war would be my best option i.e. early war sensor and late war sensor. Use the spares for use with wide radius ubering.

Dont go to the 0.007 extreme turn radius unless your going to have two types of hunters i.e. the shadow and the killer, a bit similar to Dumicus idea.

However there is room to vary turn radius just for slight variations which do look from above to be a better hunt.

You know I am right so just get on with it :rotfl: :rotfl: only Joking, its a murderous task to combine all this info this early into one package to please everyone.

I dont envy the person whom releases this mod but it does need doing and it is probably best to keep quiet and just release it so people need to play it to pass judgement on it.

I am leaving the forum for 7 days and expect this done when I return:stare: ,

You have your orders :|\\ (again only joking)

[Ducimus]

Ugh, i hate you! Your making me go through that thread again:
My babbeling which starts here, and ends. somewhere around page 25 or so :roll:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=280


Random quotes by me when i started to get a clue:



I cant say these are accurate, but their in the ballpark for 0.4 noise and 0.5 wave factors:

at 5 winds, and all other weather conditions being clear (IE clear calm day)

1/3rd = 2700-2800
slow = 1800-1900
Silent = 800-900
1 to 1.5 knots = 500 meters

At 15 winds and all other weather conditions being clear (IE clear, but windy day with whitecaps)

1/3rd = 1100-1200 range
slow = 700-800
Silent = dunno, got detected


At 15 winds, and max particpation, and overcast (storm):

1/3d = 1100
slow = 110-200
silent = he was right next to me beore the meter went red.



Just To reiterate on my two favorite sim.cfg setings:

Here is my understanding of them. Lets imagine thse are knobs you can turn on a peice of equipment like a stereo.

Quote: Noise factor:(stock setting is 1.0)
1+---------------------0.5---------------------0
Low volume-----------middle-----------------Full blast!
DEAF----------------------------------------UBER




Quote: Wave factor:(stock setting is 0.5)
0------0.001------------------0.5---------------1
Off------Low volume-------------------------Full blast!
DEAF------------------------middle ---------------UBER



Individually thats how they seem to work, when you start mixing them is when things get fuzzy. Hmmm first reaction to these setting was to change noise to 0.5 (correct,) and wave factor to 0.20 or 0.25 (maybe incorrect). Natural assumption since thats how they scale.

Ill bet if anyone tried 0.5 noise and 0.75 they'd have some pretty uber ears in those DD
I'm pretty sure everyones thinking "Shut up about the wave and noise factors already!"

Forgive me, but im compelled to think aloud for a minute. Maybe it will help.

If you look at the forumlas

http://www.mistari.com.au/shiii/shiii_Sensor_Formulas.htm

Noise factor has ALOT to do with how fast your moving your boat. Primary factors are Engine RPMS.

Wave factor has ALOT to do with how high are the waves and how high an object is.. (what object i dunno, probably the DD)


So heres my thought out loud.

Just how much of the subs noises do i want the DD's to hear, and just how far do i want them to hear it on a (clear/stormy) day?

Im gonna shut up and give it a rest now.
Try these settings. They maybe overkill, , it may not be, i dunno yet.


Detection time=1
Sensitivity=0.03
Height factor=0
Waves factor=0.75
Speed factor=10
Noise factor=0.45


What you should notice, in about 5 knot wind is the following:

1/3rd speed = meters goe red at 2900 meters
slow speed = meter goes red at 2000 meters
Silent speed = meter goes red at about 700-800 meters
at 2 knots = metere goes red at about 450.

In a 15 knot wind youll get the following:
1/3d = red at 1700 meters
slow = 900
silent = undetectable.

EDIT: removed extra quotes. Without following how information was developed they were misleading.

[gouldjg]

I know you were right Dumicus :lol:

I got rid of game for a while but when I came back I recapped on everything from the DD thread.

So my next question is

WHY DID YOU NOT TELL US :rotfl: :rotfl: (Joke)

No seriously, I left the DD thread halfway because too much headbanging was going on and we were all getting tense.

Me and CB still suffer post traumatic DD thread and I suspect a few others do also.

Thanks for posting a link to the formula again cos I wanted to look at the actives.

I cannot really say or do anymore till 9th but I am considering whipping all this up and combining with turn radius to get two different types of hunter so I needed to travel down a well worn road again and bring up war wounds from people. I think Redwine is still seriously ill after DD thread.

:up:

[Ducimus]

Try some of those settings out before you go pattin' me on the back, i may have been smoking crack when i was working on that. ;)

[Wulfmann]

Thanks, CB, that was what I was missing. I have figured out or by your dircetion now can destroy all the files where rules are available.

But, the rudder resistance thing. I open it in a hex editor and see rudder drag A0^ (not these exactly) so wonder what i need to edit or how the tools can work without rules.
Are there more rules I do not yet have?

I also will only want to barely tweak the rudders. As it is now they can turn just a bit too well and even a little less would make a difference.
My desire is to make this much harder on player but more realistic with a more reasonable chance good actions can result in survival.

So which tool does the rudder and how? This should be enough for me to complete my tweaks.

I am also thinking some of the convoys span too long a time distance.
Some run for early 42 to the end.
I will play with copying the entire convoy, adding it to the bottom with a new group number and ending the original Dec of 43 and start the same renamed one Jan 44 with more escorts (and different) for the later version.

Am I missing something with such a simplistic approach?

Wulfmann

[CB..]

if you use the mini tweaker---for the rudder drag--open the destoyers' SIM tweak file go to the propulsion set in the pull down list--and edit the

drag_rudder entry not sure wether it needs to go up or down (i thinkg G' explains it some where in this thread tho..) allso the prop_fact_rudder entry
which i'm guessing is how much effect the props have on the turning circle--

AFAIK your idea of copying a convoy and adding it at the end with a new RND_group number etc should work! give it new name as well to be sure--

[Wulfmann]

I do hope the SH3 inspector file box fp_ratio is not what you are refering to for the rudder as that seems to easy. What is the FP_Ratio?

Wulfmann

[ref]

I do hope the SH3 inspector file box fp_ratio is not what you are refering to for the rudder as that seems to easy. What is the FP_Ratio?

Wulfmann

It complements gc_height to locate the gravity center of the ship:
gc height up/down position, fp_ratio front/back position.

For editing the rudder drag you need to use the minitweaker, and open the sim file, in propulsion search for drag_rudder.

Ref

[Wulfmann]

I realize it must be staring at me but when I open the mini tweaker I can not open the .sim file for a DD because it is not a txt file.
What easy point eludes me?
There are no files in the Tweak file folder so I just stuck one .sim in.
I swear I have tried reading the read me but must have missed what seems should be obvious

Wulfmann

[CB..]

same thing as before Wulf' --download the tweak files from the website and place them in the tweak folder and you'll be able to see them to select and load--:up:

[Wulfmann]

Sorry, I was not clear.
What I meant was regarding new tweak files of ships not included.
I tried renaming files exp;
NDD_H.sim
I added to tweak folder and changed to;
NDD_H_sim.txt
which is what the tweak files included are named as.
But, if I try to open the newly created tweak file it says it can not be opened because the
"no proper brackets[] are found within tweak file"
window pops up.
What must I do to make tweak file of ships not in the TT tweaks? How do I add the [] !!

Wulfmann

[CB..]

Sorry, I was not clear.
What I meant was regarding new tweak files of ships not included.
I tried renaming files exp;
NDD_H.sim
I added to tweak folder and changed to;
NDD_H_sim.txt
which is what the tweak files included are named as.
But, if I try to open the newly created tweak file it says it can not be opened because the
"no proper brackets[] are found within tweak file"
window pops up.
What must I do to make tweak file of ships not in the TT tweaks? How do I add the [] !!

Wulfmann

i dunno Wulf-- the tweak download contains tweak files for all the destroyers aircraft merchants etc --

these files are specificly needed for the program to work--it can't open the game files without them--

i'm now officaily as lost as you are!

go back to the site and download the tweak files again :yep:

[Wulfmann]

Sorry, more unclearness!:rotfl:

Ihave the beta SW Mediterranean add on which has over 45 more ships. I added many of these to my Grey Wolves. Ships like Battle, H and M, Gridly, Hunt DE as well as 3 new Sloops (frigates) and other escort ships. These will not be in TT's tweak DL. I was wondering how I can make/convert the .sim files to tweak ones. Changing the .sim to _sim.txt is not enough by itself.
I have varied the changes in the rudder and props so all ships are different some more so when I have records that indicate a better or worse turning ship. But, I do not want to be able to see a added DD and know it will turn better.
BTW, I have tweaked mine much less. from 0.03 to 0.035-037, 0.05 to 0.055-58 with a few I know handled poorly to 0.04 and 0.06 so hopefully this will be just enough to take the edge off the hounds from hell. But, not enough that 3 or 4 will not lose you. We shall see in the next few weeks.
Difficulty that is real with survival that is realistically possible. Hopefully, that is not too much to achieve. Hopefully


Wulfmann

[Ducimus]

Would one of you guys try this in your sim.cfg:

Waves factor=0.75
Noise factor=0.45

If you want escorts to chase you, it can only help ;)

[Wulfmann]

Would one of you guys try this in your sim.cfg:
Waves factor=0.75
Noise factor=0.45
If you want escorts to chase you, it can only help ;)

They chase me now as if they are attached to me. You want me to make them chase me more?
Seriously, do you mean increase AI effectiveness or reduce it?

Wulfmann

[gouldjg]

Sorry, more unclearness!:rotfl:

Ihave the beta SW Mediterranean add on which has over 45 more ships. I added many of these to my Grey Wolves. Ships like Battle, H and M, Gridly, Hunt DE as well as 3 new Sloops (frigates) and other escort ships. These will not be in TT's tweak DL. I was wondering how I can make/convert the .sim files to tweak ones. Changing the .sim to _sim.txt is not enough by itself.
I have varied the changes in the rudder and props so all ships are different some more so when I have records that indicate a better or worse turning ship. But, I do not want to be able to see a added DD and know it will turn better.
BTW, I have tweaked mine much less. from 0.03 to 0.035-037, 0.05 to 0.055-58 with a few I know handled poorly to 0.04 and 0.06 so hopefully this will be just enough to take the edge off the hounds from hell. But, not enough that 3 or 4 will not lose you. We shall see in the next few weeks.
Difficulty that is real with survival that is realistically possible. Hopefully, that is not too much to achieve. Hopefully


Wulfmann

Please report back how your radius tweaks are doing in game:up:

0.03 to 0.04 in my book makes them turn faster does it not or am i wrong?

I went with 0.007 which is very extreme but did indicate they were then turning very wide. Mind you I also changed the one underneath to 0.01.

I have not established what each one does in game yet as it is early days and i have to take a break.

Like I said, I need to test all this after the ninth so there is no set rules with radius as of yet. Any feedback till then will help establish what the figures can then be tweaked to.


Dumicus, I will be trying your tweaks after the ninth also along with some stuff CB is working on.

I have decided not to look at things in detail anymore and am Just going to go with what feel right in game.

[Ducimus]

They chase me now as if they are attached to me. You want me to make them chase me more?
Seriously, do you mean increase AI effectiveness or reduce it?

Wulfmann

Increase it. For the most part, in a campaign game, the AI is relativly dumb and clueless. They can't hear very well.

If your using the U505 mission as a test mission for the changes your making, that lmission not a good one to use. The AI in that mission almost always acts top notch. In all the time ive played SH3, ive only ONCE had the AI in a campaign game act that good.

[CB..]

Sorry, more unclearness!:rotfl:

Ihave the beta SW Mediterranean add on which has over 45 more ships. I added many of these to my Grey Wolves. Ships like Battle, H and M, Gridly, Hunt DE as well as 3 new Sloops (frigates) and other escort ships. These will not be in TT's tweak DL. I was wondering how I can make/convert the .sim files to tweak ones. Changing the .sim to _sim.txt is not enough by itself.
I have varied the changes in the rudder and props so all ships are different some more so when I have records that indicate a better or worse turning ship. But, I do not want to be able to see a added DD and know it will turn better.
BTW, I have tweaked mine much less. from 0.03 to 0.035-037, 0.05 to 0.055-58 with a few I know handled poorly to 0.04 and 0.06 so hopefully this will be just enough to take the edge off the hounds from hell. But, not enough that 3 or 4 will not lose you. We shall see in the next few weeks.
Difficulty that is real with survival that is realistically possible. Hopefully, that is not too much to achieve. Hopefully


Wulfmann


i think your going about this all wrong Wulf---slow down a bit an come at it from the other end--

you need to tweak the entrys for the non stock destroyers--but there are no tweak files for these ships----

ok so make the tweak files for these ships--BY

COPY ONE OF THE STOCK DD TWEAK FILES <======PING PING PING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RENAME it to the name of the DESIRED ship
open it in notepad
find this bit at the top more or less

// Path to the file we are changing.
Path=data\Sea\NDE_River\NDE_River.sim

edit the path to the desired ship

save it
then open the new tweak file in the mintweaker
and edit away
now call me a nutter but i reckon that'll sort it--

[Wulfmann]

God bless you CD! That was it.
Amazing what the right knowledge does.

BTW I spilt that convoy using the same name (OS) to OSLate. While I have not had problems adding things I never assume anything (Or I assume and regret often)
That one actually started in mid 1941 and ran to the end and I think I will spilit it again so I can add VV from Feb 44 on yada yada yada.
Will do more convoys later when I have tweaked these escorts and sensors so I fear for my life but "know" I have a realistic chance.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

God bless you CD! That was it.
Amazing what the right knowledge does.

BTW I spilt that convoy using the same name (OS) to OSLate. While I have not had problems adding things I never assume anything (Or I assume and regret often)
That one actually started in mid 1941 and ran to the end and I think I will spilit it again so I can add VV from Feb 44 on yada yada yada.
Will do more convoys later when I have tweaked these escorts and sensors so I fear for my life but "know" I have a realistic chance.

Wulfmann

Many thanks :sunny: I'm glad it worked!!!:up: