From the Kaptain

[Kpt. Lehmann]

After deep conversation with the senior active members of the GW team and careful consideration...

I would like to offer my apologies to the NYGM team for using the NYGM ship damage model. Furthermore, we will be discontinuing the use of the same in future evolutions of the The Grey Wolves.

Using the NYGM ship damage model became a clear-cut case of good intentions gone a little sideways. We used the mod and properly credited it, but ruffled some feathers when we adjusted it.

Also, in the interest of mod compatability, logistics, and defeating potential future misunderstandings, we are dropping our support and/or recognition of the "GW Add-In for TW" or any combination thereof.

I wish to offer my apologies to Observer as well. He is a good man and I know he is the soldier who has been welding and hammering the pieces of GW-TW together. I know very personally that this is no small task.

I am sure NYGM fans won't be disadvantaged or disappointed by either decision as it is quite clear that the NYGM team has developed a healthy following and has benifited by the use of campaign file variants designed for GW by Rubini.

For those of you who enjoy The Grey Wolves Supermod we will not let you down either as we will be replacing the ship damage model with one that will be interesting, innovative, and historically minded in its own right for our next major release.

Both decisions are in the interest of our respective teams.

This is not an effort to be harmful to... or factionalize the community... as it truly was already factionalized before our respective team's arrivals. As long as people have preferences and interpret data differently, there will be factions. As long as we have motivated people who are willing to work for free... we will have free mods and freedom of choice. We simply have different points of view and have been human enough to make mistakes.

We are correcting those mistakes.

Someone will no doubt, eventually build an "after-market" mod that joins The Grey Wolves and The Tonnage War or something similar. However, it is the player's experience that we care about... and that calls for the teams to not have split attention on "a merger." In truth a mod team can really only support its own mod effectively.

Our intent is to relieve any perceived notion of duty between one team or the other to tailor the opposing mod packages. Though this will no doubt draw fire from some users... and have some temporary fallout... it will provide clarity. This is the best solution. It will save a lot of nerves and, in the end, it will not result in any great problems.

This is only a final word, not a signal to start some nasty debate or flame war. There's been enough of that already. There has just been no simple way to do it.

Sink them all!

[deckard]

why not join forces whit the NYGM team?

what i love most whit the SH3 modding community is that we are a community,

[Salvadoreno]

jeez what happened? I mean i was looking foward to an easy conversion of these two mods without all the crashes to desktop. O well. I guess ill have to make a choice now.

[JCWolf]

I think this will benefit both teams and Mods, since there will not be anymore confusions betwin the 2 mods, and in mi opinion will enforce the community with the teams beeing concentrated just on their owne Mods... :up:


Nothing rong with separating the MODS cause it will clarify the situation for everyone... :rock: :up:


We have now the chance and knowlidge of chosing with much more understanding of what one and another Mod offers...

And nothing hapend betwin the 2 mod teams, we just whant to save miss understandings and help everyone in the Community by clarifying the all thing... :up:

I think this will improve even more this mods and the all forum...

[Montbrun]

Unfortunately, anything said is going to be perceived by the community as "sour grapes" - somebody pissed in somebody else's cornflakes....LOL

[The Noob]

Come on!

It would suck to have 2 very good supermods wich are not combined... :damn:

Please Sort your SH!T out and join forces to create THE BEST SUPERMOD FOR SH3 EVER! :up:

Come on...don't let us hanging in the SH!T Bro.

[GreyOctober]

Come on...don't let us hanging in the SH!T Bro.

I belive thats technically impossible due to the fact that t.... :dead:

[gouldjg]

Not really Montbrun

Check the Poll (No underwater external repairs, are you ready?).

I talk to DT and actually think it is now better as we can help each others teams out in parts of the game everybody wants to see a common improvement on without having to go through mass processes of communications and permissions as well as inter mod compatibility issues. Sooner or later, there will probably be a need to combine works but at the moment, each team needs to concentrate on new findings and actually making them work.

NYGM has my greatest respect in what they are achieving and I know how much works goes into it. The amount of times a game has to be started, loaded, tested, shutdown, tweaked, started loaded etc.

If we can save each other the hours needed of this testing period as well as sharing new ideas, we do each other favors.

Ultimately, there will be more choices for the players and that is what we all want :up: .

Also, it will provide more feedback to the new dev team of sh4 as to what type of game will generate the best interest of the community.

NYGM has great features, and GW has great features, DEV team for sh4 need to combine the best of both and create a great set of options for the next release.

Nobody is going to be left in the sh*t

That is my view anyway,

[The Noob]

Nobody is going to be left in the sh*t


Very Well! :|\

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi Kpt. Lehmann,

Any news about your next major release or the new ship damage model for GW?

Mikael

[Pdubya]

Not really Montbrun

Check the Poll (No underwater external repairs, are you ready?).

I talk to DT and actually think it is now better as we can help each others teams out in parts of the game everybody wants to see a common improvement on without having to go through mass processes of communications and permissions as well as inter mod compatibility issues. Sooner or later, there will probably be a need to combine works but at the moment, each team needs to concentrate on new findings and actually making them work.

NYGM has my greatest respect in what they are achieving and I know how much works goes into it. The amount of times a game has to be started, loaded, tested, shutdown, tweaked, started loaded etc.

If we can save each other the hours needed of this testing period as well as sharing new ideas, we do each other favors.

Ultimately, there will be more choices for the players and that is what we all want .

Also, it will provide more feedback to the new dev team of sh4 as to what type of game will generate the best interest of the community.

NYGM has great features, and GW has great features, DEV team for sh4 need to combine the best of both and create a great set of options for the next release.

Nobody is going to be left in the sh*t

That is my view anyway,

Well said Gouldjg- I would rather have the two teams concentrating on their individual mods anyway. Besides, as the Kapitan said... the more you merge mods, the more likely it will be that you include a part players won't care for in their game.
Bitching about it now won't change matters anyway.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Teddy Barr.

The GW team has had enough of your attitude problem and "holier than thou" view towards our efforts.

Here and now I am going to address your disdainfulness and clarify issues you have painted in an incorrect light for the community.

They show a total lack of proper
testing and understanding of moding.

The idea that just because you take add additional 'data'
under the group heading it will get used is just silly.

...all they have done is add some useless values.

Now CB has really hacked it up. He has removed the
original entires of Detection time, Sensitivity & Height
factor. Then he has added a lot of useless values.

...improper procedure & testing in the hopes that next time
there will not again be thousands of hours wasted.


We will no longer tolerate your efforts to discredit the
GW mod on a case by case/file by file basis.


GW has stated that they will not use any NYGM mods as per
Kpt's post.
I believe that this stems from NYGM's request that GW
does not make changes to any of the NYGM work that GW
includes as it would then possibly lead to NYGM mods
being percieved incorrectly.

Not only have you mis-quoted me, but you have twisted
this statement to meet your needs.

The joint merger was cancelled/terminated by the GW team
because you denied us access to the NYGM/GW merger files
you posted on FileFront.com.

Furthermore,regarding your concern that the use of the
NYGM ship damage model as used and or tweaked by the GW
team potentially showing a bad light on the NYGM team...

The same can be said of your mod by the GW team using the NYGM ship DM's. If it didn't need fixing, we wouldn't have needed to
tweak it.


A case in point is the Tug Boat that GW supplied had been
moded by GW and as a result had no damage zones, at all
and is why it would not sink. NYGM discovered this for GW
and let them know.

Here! Eat this cookie while I play the violin for you.
It was a simple data entry error that even you could
make. Thank you for helping us fix it... Now come down from the mountain!



As the above example demostrates though, it was the NYGM
Ship Damage Mod that was made to look bad as well, its
the bit that makes the ships sink the way that they
do.

Again,regarding your concern that the use of the NYGM
ship damage model as used and or tweaked by the GW team
potentially showing a bad light on the NYGM team... The
same can be said of your mod by the GW team. If it didn't
need fixing, we wouldn't have needed to tweak it.

You also do not recognize that the success that GW has
enjoyed, has also brought POSITIVE recognition to the
NYGM ship damage models time and time again.


Kpt said that he will do what ever they pleases with
NYGM's Ship Damage Mod... I objected... and thus the NYGM
& GW merger is a thing of the past.

NEGATIVE! Again, We (The GW team) made the decision to
cancel the NYGM/GW merger as you refused us access to the
files you posted on FileFront.

Again you mis-quoted me. What I said was this:

"Please note, the GW team may alter any included file to
mesh as required by the needs of the GW Supermod for the
sake of (file) cohesion or to achieve a desired effect.
This is how discoveries and better mods are made."

The above is a necessary statement which allows us to
attempt on-the-spot fixes in ANY file where necessary.

You act as if this was tantamount to something
SEAWOLVES/X1 might do... which you have ACCUSED US OF
BEING SIMILAR TO IN PRIVATE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE DECIDED TO
USE YOUR SHIP DM!!! LOL, not only did we credit you as
the builder/designer, we paid you high praise.

You forget yourself. Just as you do, we spend our free
time modding SH3 attempting to improve the game for
players that wish to use mods in their games. Where GW
is concerned, NO OTHER mod team has had the courage to
build and release a package that addresses so many
bug-fixes, realism issues, sound and graphics
improvements... in the same package.

Where CB is concerned... he had the courage to address
the DD behavior issue and we followed that thread. We
included the best information available to us at the time
of release. I could go on and on here. Not only are
you insulting CB... but everyone who contributed to that
thread.

About ten days before the release of GW 1.0 DTB, you
urged me to combine our efforts with his in order to "not
factionalize the community..."

DTB... your thoughtlessness and total lack of respect for
others feelings and efforts shines through with peerless
clarity. If anyone has "factionalized" the community, it
has been you... as demonstrated by your total disregard for the efforts of others.

Excercising a little tact will not only serve you well in this
forum... but in real life as well.

I suggest that you do whatever you must to learn to
co-exist. The GW mod team isn't going anywhere and GW
WILL REMAIN (more certainly now than ever) a STAND-ALONE
mod offered to the community as an installable option.

Having freedom of CHOICE enriches the community... It does not fracture it!

Not only do you owe the GW team an unconditional
apology... but you owe one to CB for trashing his
efforts, and to your own team for embarrasing them.

Ende.

[JCWolf]

Teddy Barr.

The GW team has had enough of your attitude problem and "holier than thou" view towards our efforts.

Here and now I am going to address your disdainfulness and clarify issues you have painted in an incorrect light for the community.

They show a total lack of proper
testing and understanding of moding.

The idea that just because you take add additional 'data'
under the group heading it will get used is just silly.

...all they have done is add some useless values.

Now CB has really hacked it up. He has removed the
original entires of Detection time, Sensitivity & Height
factor. Then he has added a lot of useless values.

...improper procedure & testing in the hopes that next time
there will not again be thousands of hours wasted.


We will no longer tolerate your efforts to discredit the
GW mod on a case by case/file by file basis.


GW has stated that they will not use any NYGM mods as per
Kpt's post.
I believe that this stems from NYGM's request that GW
does not make changes to any of the NYGM work that GW
includes as it would then possibly lead to NYGM mods
being percieved incorrectly.

Not only have you mis-quoted me, but you have twisted
this statement to meet your needs.

The joint merger was cancelled/terminated by the GW team
because you denied us access to the NYGM/GW merger files
you posted on FileFront.com.

Furthermore,regarding your concern that the use of the
NYGM ship damage model as used and or tweaked by the GW
team potentially showing a bad light on the NYGM team...

The same can be said of your mod by the GW team using the NYGM ship DM's. If it didn't need fixing, we wouldn't have needed to
tweak it.


A case in point is the Tug Boat that GW supplied had been
moded by GW and as a result had no damage zones, at all
and is why it would not sink. NYGM discovered this for GW
and let them know.

Here! Eat this cookie while I play the violin for you.
It was a simple data entry error that even you could
make. Thank you for helping us fix it... Now come down from the mountain!



As the above example demostrates though, it was the NYGM
Ship Damage Mod that was made to look bad as well, its
the bit that makes the ships sink the way that they
do.

Again,regarding your concern that the use of the NYGM
ship damage model as used and or tweaked by the GW team
potentially showing a bad light on the NYGM team... The
same can be said of your mod by the GW team. If it didn't
need fixing, we wouldn't have needed to tweak it.

You also do not recognize that the success that GW has
enjoyed, has also brought POSITIVE recognition to the
NYGM ship damage models time and time again.


Kpt said that he will do what ever they pleases with
NYGM's Ship Damage Mod... I objected... and thus the NYGM
& GW merger is a thing of the past.

NEGATIVE! Again, We (The GW team) made the decision to
cancel the NYGM/GW merger as you refused us access to the
files you posted on FileFront.

Again you mis-quoted me. What I said was this:

"Please note, the GW team may alter any included file to
mesh as required by the needs of the GW Supermod for the
sake of (file) cohesion or to achieve a desired effect.
This is how discoveries and better mods are made."

The above is a necessary statement which allows us to
attempt on-the-spot fixes in ANY file where necessary.

You act as if this was tantamount to something
SEAWOLVES/X1 might do... which you have ACCUSED US OF
BEING SIMILAR TO IN PRIVATE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE DECIDED TO
USE YOUR SHIP DM!!! LOL, not only did we credit you as
the builder/designer, we paid you high praise.

You forget yourself. Just as you do, we spend our free
time modding SH3 attempting to improve the game for
players that wish to use mods in their games. Where GW
is concerned, NO OTHER mod team has had the courage to
build and release a package that addresses so many
bug-fixes, realism issues, sound and graphics
improvements... in the same package.

Where CB is concerned... he had the courage to address
the DD behavior issue and we followed that thread. We
included the best information available to us at the time
of release. I could go on and on here. Not only are
you insulting CB... but everyone who contributed to that
thread.

About ten days before the release of GW 1.0 DTB, you
urged me to combine our efforts with his in order to "not
factionalize the community..."

DTB... your thoughtlessness and total lack of respect for
others feelings and efforts shines through with peerless
clarity. If anyone has "factionalized" the community, it
has been you... as demonstrated by your total disregard for the efforts of others.

Excercising a little tact will not only serve you well in this
forum... but in real life as well.

I suggest that you do whatever you must to learn to
co-exist. The GW mod team isn't going anywhere and GW
WILL REMAIN (more certainly now than ever) a STAND-ALONE
mod offered to the community as an installable option.

Having freedom of CHOICE enriches the community... It does not fracture it!

Not only do you owe the GW team an unconditional
apology... but you owe one to CB for trashing his
efforts, and to your own team for embarrasing them.

Ende.



I don't understand some of this T.Bar talks, but I specially find this part very intressting and some how even a litlle funny:


They show a total lack of proper
testing and understanding of moding.

The idea that just because you take add additional 'data'
under the group heading it will get used is just silly.

...all they have done is add some useless values.

Now CB has really hacked it up. He has removed the
original entires of Detection time, Sensitivity & Height
factor. Then he has added a lot of useless values.

...improper procedure & testing in the hopes that next time
there will not again be thousands of hours wasted.



I thrully do not understand were in the name of God did Teddy Bar saw that to launch such a pack of" beautifull" words, about a Mod that at least for me was instaled without any problems at all, and i have a low end PC, considuring mi poor Ram (512mb), with the NYGM it was exactelly the oposite stuff, i tryed on to install around 12 or 14 times the Mod in all diferent ways i could possible install it, and never could really play it cause in didn't worked for me...

And finally came the GW mod with his amazinglly large size 2 Gbs. and hight level on graphics and gameplay, and installed wothout problems and played it since then.... :rock: :yep:

So.... Were is the lack of testing now mi friend???? :up:


Any way i din't see any reazon to descredit what is without any doubt one of the best mods on the all SH III Community only cause you don't agree with something or someone... :up:

[The Noob]

Kpt. Lehmann and Teddy Bar, Get Adult! :roll:

Stop flaming each others mod's.
It's just getting Silly! :shifty:

[Ducimus]

up until now i havent taken sides (beacuse i dont use either mod, i use my own), but i have to admit, DTB really lost me with that post of his. The condensending, holier than thou, tone he took was totally uncalled for and unwarranted. If there was an attack made, he most certainly threw the first punch.

I however, since i dont use either mod (although i did contribute to the community effort that TDB took a big giant schitt on), am resigning myself to the peanut gallery on the sidelines.

[ref]

Kpt. Lehmann and Teddy Bar, Get Adult! :roll:

Stop flaming each others mod's.
It's just getting Silly! :shifty:

Did you read the post ?, no one of the GW has insulted/flamed anybody.

Ref

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Kpt. Lehmann and Teddy Bar, Get Adult! :roll:

Stop flaming each others mod's.
It's just getting Silly! :shifty:

You will notice that in the process of dealing with Teddy Barr...

NOT ONCE... did I "flame his mods" or insult any of his team-mates works, effort, intent, or attitude.

We've let DTB's subtle little digs, pokes, and insults go long enough without answer.

Allowing them to go further would mean that we consent with his ideas and attitude.

Unfortunately, due to distance and expense... we cannot have a meeting face-to-face to talk about respect. Therefore, we are forced to use this means to deal with the problem.

[The Noob]

Alright, i change my post to:

Teddy Bar, Get Adult! :roll:
Stop flaming GW just because it's concurence to NYGM.
It's just getting Silly! :shifty:
---------------------

Is everyone pleased with this?

[Salvadoreno]

Where is Teddy Bar anyway? I havent heard anything from him in quite a while. IM so excited about the new NYGM and coastal command and additions but i wanna kno when it comes out. Oh well two more weeks and my finals are OVER. SUMMERTIME is gonna consist of work/play/and more play..

But i posted my feelings on the GW sticky.

[Ducimus]

Oh im sure he's around. Im sure he'll be sending Kpt. Lehmann scathing PM's and vigriously defending/supporting his position sometime today.

I was in a nice PM bout with him too, but after i had my say after the 2nd or so PM, i just deleted whatever he wrote back, as whatever he had to say, i really didn't care, and it was too early in the morning for that bull**** at the time anyway. Shame really, i really used to have a really good opinion and favorable impression of him. My thoughts now, im keeping to myself, suffice to say, they arent good. Back to the silence of the peanut gallery with me now, ive said entirely too much already.

[The Noob]

Teddy Bar would you please change your Behaivor, otherwise you 'Might' get hit with the Ban-Hammer, and i would not like to see that. :roll:

[Scorpius]

Well i guess this is bad news. Always sorry to hear bad news.

[JScones]

Oh im sure he's around. Im sure he'll be sending Kpt. Lehmann scathing PM's and vigriously defending/supporting his position sometime today.

I was in a nice PM bout with him too, but after i had my say after the 2nd or so PM, i just deleted whatever he wrote back, as whatever he had to say, i really didn't care, and it was too early in the morning for that b.s. at the time anyway. Shame really, i really used to have a really good opinion and favorable impression of him. My thoughts now, im keeping to myself, suffice to say, they arent good. Back to the silence of the peanut gallery with me now, ive said entirely too much already.
There's no quicker way to lose respect and credibility within a field than to diss on your colleagues and peers in an attempt to make yourself look superior. I don't even have any understanding of the issue in question nor am I one that is being demeaned, but dTB has lost me with his childish behaviour.

To say "My post has no malice in it and is simply stating facts about the changes " and "read that as a straight forward statement of fact with no derogative undertones" after titling the thread "...what were you guys on" and saying "I am sadly amused to see the additions to the Sim.cfg files in the GW & CB versions. They show a total lack of proper testing and understanding of moding"...well...grow up. :nope:

Ironically, in attempting to undermine others' work, all dTB is doing is undermining his own team and product through his factionalising comments. To that end, I think NYGM needs to consider who their "public face" is. They may then like to ensure that their own product is 100% perfect before criticising others (can you imagine if Kpt Lehmann or anyone else dare criticised NYGM in the same fashion?!?).

As I've posted many times before, I was really looking forward to a GW+NYGM amalgam and saw that as the bee's knees of mods...but not now...I'll stick with GW.

[HEMISENT]

Yeah I guess I feel that way too. I spent a lot of time on that thread involved with back and forth testing between CB's work, Caspo's and others. I still feel that a lot of useful information came out of that whole experience. At the very least everyone involved was coming together for the common good of the game. One of the reasons I'm addicted to this stupid game is the attitude of most of the people here and the feeling of cameraderie that this forum provides.

I was a staunch supporter of DTB and the NYGM work and still consider it to be a fine piece of work by all involved. Up until the last couple days I never had any reason to take a serious look at GW other than for curiosity sake. Perhaps if I can finally get the darn thing to DL I'll give it a serious look.

[Cdre Gibs]

TDB reminds me of Beery, always right even when he's wrong. I seem to recall awhile ago I informed beery that he was dead wrong about the DG and how it could be made less accurate - He vermently slated myself and all but called me a liar. In fact at every chance beery had I was slandered, even after a long absence he went right back to the same old BS. I refused to inform beery how to fix the DG because of his attitude.

TDB has said that you cant make the uboats have a positive bounacey like they did have in RL, that its hardcoded, well again I'm saying hes dead wrong, you can. Now considering the above, what do you think the chances are of me informing NYGM of how to do this. Ohh and just remember, I was proved right about the DG (and this is way before NYGM stated that they were the first to fix the DG).

I have no vested interest in RUB, GW, NYGM, IUB, Sink Them All, AOTD or any other major mod. But I'll always pass on what little bits I have or know to any1 who ask's and behaves nice. Those who's attitude dont stink. And thats why you will find little bits of my work in some of the bigger mods going and not other's. I find it very interesting that of all the mods out there its been the supposedly "100% Realisim Hardcore Mod's" that are driven by those with the worst egos and attitudes around.

[Observer]

This thread no long contributes anything positive and constructive to the development of SH3. It is clearly in violation of forum guidlines:

The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide who he airs and a newspaper editor decides whose letters he prints and whose he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.

Personally, I find the behavior of all parties involved in the non-constructive discussion in this thread (as well as the other) to be despicable.

Mods: Please lock and or delete this thread as well. It has no place in this forum.

[JScones]

Observer, maybe you need to also have a "chat" with, and raise this with, your NYGM boss...

I stand by my comments above. dTB should accept responsibility for his behaviour, or do you consider it acceptable? I'm curious as you are commenting on everyone else's posts?

I have no more to say on the matter. The damage has been done (and you obviously know it).

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Yeah I guess I feel that way too. I spent a lot of time on that thread involved with back and forth testing between CB's work, Caspo's and others. I still feel that a lot of useful information came out of that whole experience. At the very least everyone involved was coming together for the common good of the game. One of the reasons I'm addicted to this stupid game is the attitude of most of the people here and the feeling of cameraderie that this forum provides.

I was a staunch supporter of DTB and the NYGM work and still consider it to be a fine piece of work by all involved. Up until the last couple days I never had any reason to take a serious look at GW other than for curiosity sake. Perhaps if I can finally get the darn thing to DL I'll give it a serious look.

If you continue to have DL problems, let me know and I will mail you a disk. Your thoughts on any element of GW are certainly welcome. :up: :up: :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

This thread no long contributes anything positive and constructive to the development of SH3. It is clearly in violation of forum guidlines:

The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide who he airs and a newspaper editor decides whose letters he prints and whose he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.

Personally, I find the behavior of all parties involved in the non-constructive discussion in this thread (as well as the other) to be despicable.

Mods: Please lock and or delete this thread as well. It has no place in this forum.

Considering what has and is occuring with Teddy Barr's attitude, I think we should involve Mr. Stevens himself.

This is a simple case of people living in glass houses and throwing rocks. Teddy Barr opened the can of worms and the GW mod team responded.

Did you guys really expect anything different? Our team can quote those same forum rules right back in return given the circumstances.

As far as failing to be constructive is concerned, I disagree. This thread can serve a purpose IF FOR NO OTHER REASON than to clarify the common respect that one person or group of people should show another person or group of people. NOT ONCE... did I "flame his mods" or insult any of his team-mates works, effort, intent, or attitude.

It wasn't the GW team that fired "the shot heard 'round the forum."

[The Noob]

Considering what has and is occuring with Teddy Barr's attitude, I think we should involve Mr. Stevens himself.


Your talking about the Ban-Hammer Aren't you? :roll:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

...and the feeling of cameraderie that this forum provides.

This is the biggest reason that I went from being a casual observer... to actively involved modder.

Marhkimov, Rubini, Cdre Gibs, Gouldjg, Gizzmoe, Rulle34, Pablo, CCIP, NippelSpanner, W_Clear, Pascal, Tinman, Col7777, Kriller, FlakWalker...

I could go on and on. These people are only a few that I remember well. I miss the ones that are gone.

[Observer]

Observer, maybe you need to also have a "chat" with, and raise this with, your NYGM boss...

I stand by my comments above. dTB should accept responsibility for his behaviour, or do you consider it acceptable? I'm curious as you are commenting on everyone else's posts?

I have no more to say on the matter. The damage has been done (and you obviously know it).

I am commenting on the lack on constructiveness for this thread and the other like it. This thread, and the other, have degenerated to the equivalent of a forum mob which has no place here. I had hoped the other thread might turn into something useful. I may as well have wished in one hand and crapped in the other for all the good it would do.

I will not comment on anyone's conduct in public; it is not my place to do so, and those matters are better left in private, or to be handled by the forum moderators. It is their job after all. The problem with airing dirty laundry in public is that everyone ends up smelling and no one is the better for it. It's like the old saying about wresting with a pig - you get dirty and the pig likes it.

I have said - and I still stand by it - I will not become involved in flame wars. This needs to end before it spirals further out of control. I do not speak for the NYGM, GW, or any other team. I speak as a member of this community and this forum. Having had a front row seat in all of this silly B.S. I am quite honestly sick of the whole bloody thing.

As I've said in this thread and the other: mods, please deal with these threads accordingly.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Observer, maybe you need to also have a "chat" with, and raise this with, your NYGM boss...

I stand by my comments above. dTB should accept responsibility for his behaviour, or do you consider it acceptable? I'm curious as you are commenting on everyone else's posts?

I have no more to say on the matter. The damage has been done (and you obviously know it).

I am commenting on the lack on constructiveness for this thread and the other like it. This thread, and the other, have degenerated to the equivalent of a forum mob which has no place here. I had hoped the other thread might turn into something useful. I may as well have wished in one hand and crapped in the other for all the good it would do.

I will not comment on anyone's conduct in public; it is not my place to do so, and those matters are better left in private, or to be handled by the forum moderators. It is their job after all. The problem with airing dirty laundry in public is that everyone ends up smelling and no one is the better for it. It's like the old saying about wresting with a pig - you get dirty and the pig likes it.

I have said - and I still stand by it - I will not become involved in flame wars. This needs to end before it spirals further out of control. I do not speak for the NYGM, GW, or any other team. I speak as a member of this community and this forum. Having had a front row seat in all of this silly B.S. I am quite honestly sick of the whole bloody thing.

As I've said in this thread and the other: mods, please deal with these threads accordingly.

I'm sick of it too! It is utterly sickening to be forced to respond to the treatment that TB has handed the GW team. Only this time we've decided to stand up and be heard. Just deleting/locking threads only leaves room for future BS of the same nature to occur again and again. It does NOT address the problem.

We tried to make things right in the first post of this thread.

It was sincere. I didn't write some dribble just to be flippant.

Putting YOU in charge of the NYGM mod team I think would fix the problem, Observer. You at least have had the fortitude required to deal with the GW team and others in a respectful manner.

[JScones]

Putting YOU in charge of the NYGM mod team I think would, Observer. You at least have had the fortitude required to deal with the GW team and others in a respectful manner.
FWIW... :up:

[Observer]

I'm sick of it too! It is utterly sickening to be forced to respond to the treatment that TB has handed the GW team. Only this time we've decided to stand up and be heard. Just deleting/locking threads only leaves room for future BS of the same nature to occur again and again. It does NOT address the problem.

I don't entirely agree, however I don't wish to debate this further in public. If you wish to debate further, or continue the earlier line of thought please contact me in PM.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I'm sick of it too! It is utterly sickening to be forced to respond to the treatment that TB has handed the GW team. Only this time we've decided to stand up and be heard. Just deleting/locking threads only leaves room for future BS of the same nature to occur again and again. It does NOT address the problem.

I don't entirely agree, however I don't wish to debate this further in public. If you wish to debate further, or continue the earlier line of thought please contact me in PM.

We tried to make things right in the first post of this thread.

It was sincere. I didn't write some dribble just to be flippant.

[Cdre Gibs]

I've just had a PM from TDB :

Gibs,
You said that you know how to get a positive bouyancy on the u-boat, well I am interested.

So if you are inclined to, I am listening.

Of course due credit would go to you for this and if it works, wow.

Cheers.

Does the phrase "A snow ball in HELL" mean anything!
Same reason I gave beery, attitude.

PS: Of course it bloody works, I wouldn't have said anything if it didn't!!!!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Observer,

In some ways I'd love to address this with you by PM... but that would be inappropriate.

The time for making treaties behind the scenes... Well, lets just say that TB slammed that door shut.

We feel that this needs to be addressed in an open manner in hopes of conserving the openness of thought you can find here... that brought us here... and made us contributing members.

Whatever price I am asked to pay... I am ready to pay.

...and after the investigation I will gladly submit to what Mr. Stevens, or his designated spokesperson will ask of me.

I have full confidence that they will deal with it in a fair manner and not just ignore why this problem exists.

[The Noob]

I've just had a PM from TDB :

Gibs,
You said that you know how to get a positive bouyancy on the u-boat, well I am interested.

So if you are inclined to, I am listening.

Of course due credit would go to you for this and if it works, wow.

Cheers.

Does the phrase "A snow ball in HELL" mean anything!
Same reason I gave beery, attitude.

Tell it to him.
I think no personal reasons should stop this game begin made better.

My useless thought.

[Observer]

Observer,

In some ways I'd love to address this with you by PM... but that would be inappropriate.

The time for making treaties behind the scenes... Well, lets just say that TB slammed that door shut.

We feel that this needs to be addressed in an open manner in hopes of conserving the openness of thought you can find here... that brought us here... and made us contributing members.

Whatever price I am asked to pay... I am ready to pay.

...and after the investigation I will gladly submit to what Mr. Stevens, or his designated spokesperson will ask of me.

I have full confidence that they will deal with it in a fair manner and not just ignore why this problem exists.

It's Your decision, though I consider it regrettable. This doesn't have to be a witch hunt or the Inquisition unless you chose to make it so. It should instead be about reaching an understanding which can better be achieved in private. Come on! This is a game! It's supposed to be fun! Sadly it doesn't feel that way...

I have nothing further to say on the subject. I'm going to go and crawl back under my rock. The balls in your court. :up:

[don1reed]

Romeo and Juliet
Act 5, Scene 3: At a churchyard; in it a tomb belonging to the Capulets:
PRINCE
This letter doth make good the friar's words,
Their course of love, the tidings of her death:
And here he writes that he did buy a poison
Of a poor 'pothecary, and therewithal
Came to this vault to die, and lie with Juliet.
Where be these enemies? Capulet! Montague!
See, what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love.
And I for winking at your discords too
Have lost a brace of kinsmen: all are punish'd

be of good cheer,

[CCIP]

Guys,

I can't keep up with the forums for a few days, and this is what happens?

:nope:

Please, I ask that you all be respectful and, as I heard everyone promise before this "conflict" came up - avoid any sort of attacks against each other. I don't have the time and ability to deal with the situation right now, or figure out who's right or wrong; I've asked Neal to take a look at this for me if he gets the chance.

I would very much like it if we could simply do without any kind of drama. Especially when it spreads out into the community and sours the situation. I don't know whose fault this is, nor am I interested in that right now, but please don't resort to this kind of thing.

Both threads locked; please don't start any other "heated debates" like this. :-?

[Onkel Neal]

CCIP is right, let's try this in e-mail or PM, fellows.