LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes

[Molon Labe]

I practically parked the UUV on top of him (688I), range was about a mile but a lot of it might have been cross-layer. Most of the tracking was while he was evading torps close aboard. Initial detection was about 3 miles, probably, when he accelerated to tactical speed. The torpedoes were detected at about 10-13nm out in the duct in a CV SSP.

[LuftWolf]

Sorry Bellman, we are heading in another direction.

Since I blew the initial testing on frequency sensitivity ranges, the new UUV sensor is going to be completely different (narrow high-frequency detection band with a sensitivity significantly less, but comparable to sphere arrays).

Loud contacts should be picked up at some distance and quiet contacts not at all. The only reason it is in the state that it's in in the playtest is because I thought it had to be thoroughly fudged (very very low sensitivity TA-like sonar), but now we can actually do it the way it should be done, which is, a sonar that is significantly less sensitive than the stock game UUV.

Based on what has been discussed here and what is in the mod, there is basically no way that a UUV sonar should pick up a very quiet submarine moving slowly unless it practically runs into the hull.

[Deathblow]

I would just like to say that more people probably don't make their own mods, because LW&A has come so far and any other mod would probably mimick a lot of what was already down in LW&A.

LW&A was pretty much a conglemerate of all the mod ideas of the community... at least at first... IMHO. I've tried to throw in my coding suggestions from time to time.

As far as cheating in the online community... is this your first time playing an online game? Exploiting bugs and unintentional gliches is what dominates MOST online gaming... its the rule, not the exception, such is online and will always happen. No DW players aren't gamers that walk on water and rise above the problem that every other single online game has... it will be subject to it just the same.

Remember LW and A... create the game that YOU want to play... don't create it for the community, create it for YOURSELF because its what you want to play. Inviting the aid of those that want to help and distrubing your ideals to those interested is appreciated, but never forget that its your game that your trying to perfect. That should keep the frustratoin your starting to feel more in perspective... hopefully. You guys obviously have a vision of what is ideal in the game and go with it, that's about it.

EDIT: grammar

[Bellman]

LW: ''In another direction'' - No sir !

UUV: Only in so far as your initial objectives in ASW have been opposed by the so called 'Reality Now'
brigade ! So you have listened and responded by introducing short-sightedness. I predicted this, if you recall,
and said you were heading into a ''cul de sac.''and also that ''you should listen to calls for the sensitivity to
be reduced'' So thats where you are as predicted in a cul de sac with the short-sighted.
Not ''another direction'' No sirree - Bang on target. In todays climate an inevitable outcome.
We shared initialy an unrealistic goal of achieving a new UUV with a greater ASW role. A great pity !

But in UUV controllability and incoming tracking I am completely onboard ! And as for Torps,
excluding minor wire glitches the same applies here !

So from my negotiating perspective 75% at least of requirements met = One happy bunny here !! :rock: :up:
Please keep up the good work - it is greatly appreciated. :|\

[LuftWolf]

I just tested my underkeel detonation scheme for the ADCAP... it works. :)

[LuftWolf]

The final design for the LWAMI Advanced Torpedo Mod is done.

I'm going to start working on the implimentation for a complete torpedo playtest, which I hope to have done for tomorrow night.

Stand-by. Wish me luck. :up:

Cheers,
David

PS This is going to be SO rad once its fully implimented, I can't even contain myself. :-j

[TLAM Strike]

PS This is going to be SO rad once its fully implimented, I can't even contain myself. :-jWell if you lose containment and breach I’m not going to clean it up! :P

Make sure the other fish get the under the keel detonation too!
*Thinking of the 65-76* :o :rock:

[Bellman]

:sunny: Good luck David - Cant wait - this is the BIGGEE !! :|\

[LuftWolf]

PS This is going to be SO rad once its fully implimented, I can't even contain myself. :-jWell if you lose containment and breach I’m not going to clean it up! :P

Make sure the other fish get the under the keel detonation too!
*Thinking of the 65-76* :o :rock:

Actually, the 65-76 has always been modelled for underkeel detonation (even in the stock database) because its warhead in the database is about twice its listed value, and since it is a dedicated ASuW wakehomer, this works just fine, since it is always assumed to fuse in underkeel mode, the damage is just factored into the standard damage listed in the database.

Public sources listed the warhead as 450-550kg, and the database has the damage of the 65-76 listed at 900kg.

[LuftWolf]

I need someone out there to check and see if the following happens:

1) Launch a UUV from the startboard side number 3 tube on the 688i

2) Launch a UUV from the port side number 4 tube on the 688i

3) Maneover the UUVs and see if the one fired from the port tube is 10 degress off the indicated course (at the firecontrol panel UUV controls) you are steering it to the left and the one on the right is 10 degrees off the indicated course to the right.

Please do this with the stock game, LWAMI 3.02, or the LWAMI PT 1, just please tell me what version you are doing it.

Thanks. :) :up:

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

Ok, I have finished some final changes to the UUV and added the Advanced Torpedo Physics to the ADCAP and UGST doctrines, although the database changes haven't been done yet.

For those of you who are chomping at the bit (or who think we are just messing around here :-j ) I'm going to post a corrected LWAMI Playtest One to the CADC very shortly, although keep in mind this is far from the finished product, but it clearly demonstrates all the concepts we are using.

Cheers,
David

PS Don't expect the AI to be able to use ADCAPs or UGSTs very well right now, I haven't done any work on the AI at all up to this point.

[LuftWolf]

I have posted the LWAMI Playtest One WITH ATP correction to the CADC:

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29521

From the playtest readme:

To Install: Unzip the file into your main DW directory allowing the unzip program to overwrite all files and install to the correct directories.

This playtest should be considered a beta. It combines LWAMI 3.02 with the following changes:

ADDED IN THE ATP VERSION

UUV-The UUV sensor sensitivity has been reduced and given a hardcap of about 20nm. Also, the range of the UUV is now greatly reduced by running it at high speed, especially at 20kts. Also, and I just noticed this although it appears on my computer to be in the stock game as well, the course of the UUV is going to be off whatever is indicated in the fire control panel controls by the firing angle of the torpedo tube that fired it... I can't correct this, but I tried, although it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. :-P

UGST and ADCAP- I have tuned the wirewatch sensor and doctrines. The only ownship condition now monitored by the wire is the distance from the launchpoint of the torpedo... this is measured as a radius. I can't have it be the truerun of the submarine because the doctrine isn't getting good info from the Sim. Again, this is fine in my opinion because it allows the submarine some loiter capability. Also, the Enable distance and the wiredistance for the torpedo are now measured as the true distance run rather than the radius distance from launchpoint. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: the Advanced Torpedo Physics have been implimented for the ADCAP and UGST, so that means they will run farther when slower and running more shallow (although the database still needs to be updated to fully take advantage of this at the extreme long/slow range/speed settings).

END OF THINGS ADDED IN THE ATP VERSION

Advanced Torpedo Control Mod for UGST and ADCAP:

Set the torpedo to fire as normal. If you don't use the wire commands, it will behave as always. The wirecontrol commands are now as follows. Note, you must wait at least a second of game time between clicks, but it is possible to hit the button several times to go through the cycle quickly. A single preenable click will preenable the torpedo if it is enabled or do nothing. A second preenable click will send the torpedo to the preset search depth. A third click will send the torpedo to the ceiling. A fourth click will send the torpedo back to launch depth. The enable button works as follows. A single enable click will set the torpedo speed to 40kts and enable the passive sensor. A second click will enable the active seeker on the torpedo and set the speed to max speed. Further clicks of the enable button have no effect on the torpedo unless it is preenabled again, and then the behavior is reset to the beginning of the enable cycle.

WireBreak Mod:
Wires are now limited in range and ownship maneovering parameters. The ADCAP has a 10nm internal wire and a 5nm wire on the launching platform. If the torpedo or ownship travel farther than those distance FROM THE LAUNCH POINT, or if the range between ownship and the torpedo exceeds that distance, the wire will break. The UGST has a 25km internal wire and a 5km wire on the launching platform. Additionally, if the opening speed between ownship and the torpedo exceeds about 60kts for the ADCAP or 55kts for the UGST, with ownship movement accounting for no more than 20kts of that calculation, the wire will break. These maneovering measurements are unintentionally fuzzy, however, it is something that occurs naturally that I was going to build in anyway, so it works nicely. :-) What this means in practical terms is that a slow running torpedo gives the launching platform much more flexibility in maneovering the ship, whereas a torpedo running at maxspeed is much more prone to a maneovering-related wirebreak. NOTE: When the wire is broken, its broken. However, sometimes the interface will momentarily display the torpedo as preenabled, but it reenables soon enough not to effect the game in any way. The only unfinished part is that you can still shutdown the torpedo even after the wire is broken... we can't take this out. However, it is very minor, in my opinion, seeing as the user would typically reload his tube after the wires are broken anyway. ;-)

Advanced UUV Mod:

The UUV is much more quiet now, and is very hard to detect without cavitation. The passive sensor has been reduced in sensitivity considerably and the active sensor has been disabled completely (mostly because its broken in DW 1.03). The UUV now has a range of 32km and max speed of 20kts, with the sensors effective up to 6-8kts, with washout above 6kts. The operation is as follows. You must be at 4kts as before, and enter the presets in the same way. After firing the weapon it will begin to feed back data immediately and move at 4kts. The speed of the UUV is controlled with the enable button and the depth is controlled with the preenable button. The preenable button has no effect on the passive sensor. One click of the enable button will stop the UUV; it can persist indefinately in this state (although I will most likely have a timer on it in the full version), a second click will speed the UUV up to 6kts. A third click of the enable button will speed the UUV up to 12kts, the max speed the UUV can travel in up to 90ft of water without cavitating. A fourth click of the enable button and the UUV will go to its max speed of 20kts. A fifth click will stop the UUV and reset the counter, although you can click the enable button twice slowly and set it to 6kts. Note the sensors are washout above 8kts and do not feed data. The preenable button depth control works as follows. A single click does nothing. A second preenable click will send the UUV to the preset search depth. A third preenable click will send the UUV to 90ft if it is in over 100ft of water or 45ft if it is in less than 100ft of water. A fourth click will send the UUV back to launch depth, and reset the cycle.

SLAM-ER and Misc. Missiles:

The SLAM-ER now works for ASuW use and will enable a radar seeker at the last waypoint if it is over water. If the last waypoint is over land, the missile will operate in Strike mode, and behave as a light TLAM. The missile has a stealth enable feature that sends it down to just above the ocean before enabling and then after enabling it rising back to its cruising altitude of 30ft. Note, the standard harpoon has also been giving this cruising altitude, and the flight profiles of various missiles have been lowered. Also, the standard SLAM has been fixed and equipped on the AI P-3 as a land attack missile because the AI can't use the SLAM-ER properly. The AI P-3 does carry the Harpoon for ASuW. The Harpoon and the SLAM-ER both have a 40 Radar PSL, which is very low.

Helicopters:

I have attempted to fixed several problems like crashing and reporting contacts at launch, as well as dragging the active dipping sonar. Please use the FFG AI MH60 as well as observe helo behavior in general. :-) Also, the MH60 no longer launches with its radar on. :-)

CIWSAttack Doctrine has been updated to give better intercept performance will allowing for appropriate missile conservation for sustained attacks.

I made a minor change to the TLAM doctrine to make sure it always explode near the target as opposed to disappearing if it overshoots.

The Random Direction Torpedo Mod has been disabled for all torpedoes to allow more predictable subroc and AI MH60 weapon delivery. The torpedoes will always go to the right upon enabling.

The Hull array of the SW has been changed to simulate what we believe to be more close to the actual sonar suite on the SW. The Hull array on the SeaWolf now represents a low frequency receiver with coverage slightly larger than the Sphere array and with the same geometry. The frequency sensitivity and and washout speed remain as before. This sonar suite should be very helpful for tracking evading targets and as well as for all situaions in the littorals where the TA cannot operate.

The Maxspeed of the MPT torpedo payload on the SS-N-27 ASW has been reduced from 55kts to 45kts. This is done partially because the torpedo probably is closer to that speed as well as to reduce the effectiveness of the SS-N-27 relative to the new torpedoes behavior.

That's it!

Please play the heck out of this, specifically looking into these things I have mentioned here and provide as much feedback as you can through the usual channels. :-)

Cheers,
David
LW

Please do not post this file to any other site, as it is NOT an official LWAMI distribution. Thank you.

Cheers,
David

[Bellman]

:sunny: Great - this is what we've been waiting for :rock:

Entering the 'Head-bashing' zone again fearlessly :roll: .........
David you asked earlier for UUV testing on the 688i 3 and 4 tubes. Dived in Stock (Stock UUV ): The starboard (3) tube launched UUV exits and maintains + 10 deg.
When resteered its actual heading in WC always remains + 10 deg of the one selected. The port (4) tube launched UUV exits and maintains - 10 deg.
When resteered its actual heading in WC always remains - 10 deg of the one selected.

As you say, when allowed for, its no big deal. :yep:

[Bellman]

Weird - cant understand this :-

I have two separate installations of Stock and LwAmi - each on a different partition of my hard drive.(HD A and HD B)
I loaded up a 688i (HD A) with UUVs tubes 3 & 4 for the above test in the Stock game (results above)
I then switched to LwAmi (HD B) and went to Wpns loadout to choose the UUVs and there they were.
So to check this out I swapped the UUVs for TASMs exited that HD and ran Stock again on the other HD where
I select the mission with 688i go to loadout and HECK the TASMs are there. :o

I cant understand this as I have separate registry settings as recommended in the dual-instal instructions.
Anyone got any ideas ?

[LuftWolf]

Thanks Bellman. :up:

And don't worry, as long as you don't screw up, you don't have to worry about getting your "head bashed." :lol: :P

Yeah, that's a bit of problem from the stock game... I can't compensate for it in the doctrines, so we just have to live with it.

I had just never noticed it before... ok, not a big deal. :)

Cheers,
David

[Amizaur]

Weird - cant understand this :-

I cant understand this as I have separate registry settings as recommended in the dual-instal instructions.
Anyone got any ideas ?

Excuse me please, if it's obvious, but you do switch register keys between different install runs ? It's the only thing you didn't say...

[Amizaur]

From the playtest readme:

UUV-The UUV sensor sensitivity has been reduced and given a hardcap of about 20nm.

Hm do you think that tiny torpedo/UUV sensor can detect ANYTHING other than an earthquake at range of 20nm ?? Even supertanker at 20kts ?
I don't think so, or rather don't feel soo... anyone more experienced can say ?

Also, the range of the UUV is now greatly reduced by running it at high speed, especially at 20kts. :up:

UGST and ADCAP- I have tuned the wirewatch sensor and doctrines. The only ownship condition now monitored by the wire is the distance from the launchpoint of the torpedo...

And I think it's very good for a test. Later of course, other conditions for launching sub maneuvers/speed can be added, but now that could confuse players only... Not too much things at once or we would have to learn completly new game... for a test :-?

UGST, so that means they will run farther when slower and running more shallow (although the database still needs to be updated to fully take advantage of this at the extreme long/slow range/speed settings).

Come on, it's only two values in DB (weapon rng for both torps) :) At stock db range with torp range bug there is little reason in running it slow... Can result in less range. In fact you can set torp range in DB even to 50nm, doctrine will limit it correct values anyway :-)

[Bellman]

Amizaur: Yes I have seperate registry keys as I said above -
I cant understand this as I have separate registry settings as recommended in the dual-instal instructions.

Perhaps the 'keys' were also corrupted with the problems I had last week. I will try recreating the keys...
unless you have any other ideas ?

[LuftWolf]

Come on, it's only two values in DB (weapon rng for both torps) At stock db range with torp range bug there is little reason in running it slow... Can result in less range. In fact you can set torp range in DB even to 50nm, doctrine will limit it correct values anyway :-)

Well, yes, but I'm trying to do the changes in sensible blocks... otherwise, I'm going to go nuts! And in fact, I'm almost there anyway... :doh: :doh: :doh:

Hehe... :lol:

[LuftWolf]

BTW, I tested the very short WireWatch sensor (200 yards)... and although the sim keeps the ownship tgttrack, it does not update the solution once the sensor loses contact (which is the way it SHOULD work)... so the Sim assume the tgttrack is always moving at the same speed and direction as when it was detected when the weapon was fired and then immediately lost its track, so we have to stay with the 35000m range.

[Bellman]

Well I think I've sorted my scrambled DW installation to enable a dive or two with the new Playtest.

I gotta say the Mk2 UUV is crucial so at the outset I'm looking at its performance in tracking incoming torps
and its range ability to contribute to passive cross bearing fixes.

Second only to that is the persistence of torps to burn-through spoofing CMs and their ability
to regain the track/s post spoofing.

Dickensian * translation for our NY wizard -
1. What ranges will UUV track incoming /surface/subs ?
2. Will torps be easily spoofed ?
* Just a little sarcasm LW ! ;)

:lol: :roll: ...and please dont 'lose your marbles'.......................................... ...................just yet ! :-j

[LuftWolf]

Dickensian * translation for our NY wizard -
1. What ranges will UUV track incoming /surface/subs ?
2. Will torps be easily spoofed ?
* Just a little sarcasm LW !

Beats me... but these sorts of things can be tweaked easily once the engineering is done. Kind of like tuning a guitar. :)

Just to give you guys a status report, I have finished dividing the AI from the player torpedoes, which was no small task.

Now I have the bulk of the playable torpedo doctrines to make as well as finishing up the database changes for the AI, as well as the advanced sensor modelling.

I think I can say, confidently that we are about 65% there, with the majority of the large critical blocks being done.

Realistically, I think the torpedo mods can be done in a few days and submitted for testing, and I think LWAMI 4.00 can probably be done in about two weeks or so, and that's with a lot more changes in it than just the torpedo mods, as well as factoring in a testing period.

I'll keep you guys posted. :up:

Cheers,
David

[Bellman]

The gremlins are determined that I dont get to dive the latest 'Playable' :damn: :hulk:

My Stock and previous LwAmi separate installs work fine but when I exchange the Database or Doctrine files for the Playtest ones this is what hapopens:

Going into the scenario which works fine as above in Playtest I enter weapons Loadout and make my selection. Click acceptance and dive but Hey Presto my loadout is not what was selected BUT what was there in the first place (ie prior to the attempted change.) Dived many times=same result :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

Delete all of the files in your DW folder marked .lod as their file extension.

[Bellman]

Wizardry works ! :yep: That fixed it LW ! :up: :rock:

Cheers David. :sunny:

[Bellman]

I like very much what I've seen in dives so far.

Just a couple of things -
Firstly surprised that the Mk2 UUV does not report active cm contacts !
Secondly the happening originaly reported to Amizaur following his first release, still occurs, namely after a torp (Mk 48) has self-activated at RTE range I am unable, within normal wire guidance range, to regain control. But everything works fine if the torp is activated prior to RTE
ie. Speed/depth and directional control.

Standing by - with pillow on head. ;-)

[Molon Labe]

I like very much what I've seen in dives so far.

Just a couple of things -
Firstly surprised that the Mk2 UUV does not report active cm contacts !
Secondly the happening originaly reported to Amizaur following his first release, still occurs, namely after a torp (Mk 48) has self-activated at RTE range I am unable, within normal wire guidance range, to regain control. But everything works fine if the torp is activated prior to RTE
ie. Speed/depth and directional control.

Standing by - with pillow on head. ;-)

Active CMs have a very small NL, I wouldn't expect the tuned-down UUV to pick them up.

[Bellman]

But even when you are very, very close ....................nothing !! ?

Now where did I hear the term 'surrender monkeys' ?
The UUV Mk2 has been emasculated as an ASW offensive tool completely!
This is a big retrograde step in my eyes !!
What was/is called for are marginal changes in performance that do not fundamentaly
change the balance of the GAME ! Repeat GAME not RL -
RL has moved on way,way ahead, we know that !

[Molon Labe]

Well, completely emasculated is obviously going a bit far, since I used a UUV against LW successfully just a few days ago. But even it it were, all of the "expert testimony" here on the boards seems to be in agreement that UUVs are generally not effective at detecting submarines, so the reduced performance is bringing the game more in line with reality. And that is definitely a good thing.

In terms of game balance between subs, it effects both sides, so any change in balance is negligible. In terms of balance between platform types, it can still detect noisy skimmers and torpedoes, so it is still good for ASUW and for quickly localizing air-dropped torpedoes; any change in balance is also negligible.

In terms of playability, tracking subs just got a lot harder, which is also a good thing, since triangulation is just too damn easy. I welcome the return of the importance of good TMA.

[TLAM Strike]

Now where did I hear the term 'surrender monkeys' ? Grounds Keeper Willie from The Simpsons probably.

The UUV Mk2 has been emasculated as an ASW offensive tool completely!
This is a big retrograde step in my eyes !!
What was/is called for are marginal changes in performance that do not fundamentaly
change the balance of the GAME ! Repeat GAME not RL -
RL has moved on way,way ahead, we know that !'LuftWolf and Amizaur’s Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod'

LW and Ami have changed the balance of a lot of things making them closer to reality. Remember the "53cm" and "65cm" torpedoes? The Sonobuoy depths?

Either lean to use sensors the platforms have in real life or play stock, that’s what it comes down to.

[Bellman]

TL: Either lean to use sensors Yeh - how does that go - lean left for SA , right for TA - I must try that ! :lol:

OK I guess I personaly have no problem with using the sub sensors for the tasks we discuss. :yep:
But I do know the non-hardcore ''gamers'' find the UUV a useful prop, rightly or wrongly ! :o

I merely make the point that this change travels too far - I can live with it - hope others can. :doh::huh::down:

[Wildcat]

Maybe the wrong thread for this but torpedoes are still exploding on countermeasures.

If an AI sub launches active countermeasures, torpedoes from the ASW rocket and Stallion from Akula will both explode on the countermeasure, completely ignoring the submarine beyond it.

[Molon Labe]

Maybe the wrong thread for this but torpedoes are still exploding on countermeasures.

If an AI sub launches active countermeasures, torpedoes from the ASW rocket and Stallion from Akula will both explode on the countermeasure, completely ignoring the submarine beyond it.

sounds like you botched your installation. removing CM detonations was probably the first thing LW/Ami did!

[Wildcat]

I didn't botch the installation, the only way that's possible is if the installer for lwami is broken. I'm betting that those two torpedos were just forgotten when it came to the countermeasure thing. All the other torpedoes do not explode on countermeasures.

[LuftWolf]

Wildcat, no this shouldn't be happening... in the ATP mod I distributed the MPU and the Stallion torpedo have not had any changes made to them at all since 3.02, and the torpedoes (in that version) all still shared the same doctrine that controls torpedo homing.

Has this happened a single time or is it repeatable?

My guess is that in that particular situation, the AI happened to drop two decoys at the exact same time (you can observe this in the replay if the torpedo explodes but the decoy still remains... what happened is one decoy got killed and the other still shows up... this is a "known" issue mentioned in the readme) or you just had some kind of random thing, the doctrine system in DW can sometimes be more spongy that I really like in terms of variables and conditionals (the software literally will do two things with the same code with no real reason that I can figure out sometimes, although fortunately this can be worked around usually).

Thanks guys.

Cheers,
David

PS There is no installer, its just a zip file with two folders and files.

[LuftWolf]

I just tested the ATP mod again and the subrocs aren't exploding on my computer... in fact, since all torpedoes in the playtest are using the same main doctrine still except for the ADCAP and UGST and all are using the 3.02 homing doctrine, there is no reason at all why some torpedoes would explode on decoys and some would not other than something random related to that specific in game instance.

Can you try to be as specific as possible as to what was going on at the time?

[Wildcat]

It has happened before and I was aware that the torpedoes may explode if 2 cm's are dropped. However I figured it would be irrelevant against an LA sub since the default cm loadout is 1 active and 1 passive cm. Does that mean even if the torpedo is active it will explode on 2 passive cm's?

I'll reproduce the scenario sometime soon and detail it here.

[LuftWolf]

The countermeasures for AI subs are handled completely differently than for the player subs.

It's possible that it could have dropped two at the same time... but not likely.

In terms of passive decoys, AI never drop passive decoys in LWAMI.

[LuftWolf]

Please be very very very very specific about everything when you retest.

The non-CM exploding torpedo mod has been out for 7-8 months now, and this is the first I've heard about torpedoes exploding on decoys outside of when two get dropped directly on top of each other (and I discovered that by accident about two months ago).

Cheers,
David

[Amizaur]

I didn't botch the installation, the only way that's possible is if the installer for lwami is broken. I'm betting that those two torpedos were just forgotten when it came to the countermeasure thing. All the other torpedoes do not explode on countermeasures.

Very easy to check. Go to your doctrine directory (folder ) and open the TorpHoming.txt file in any text editor (notepad for example). Original file was 326 bytes long, modded one is twice as long (over 700 bytes) and has a

"; torpedos not detonating on CMs (with exeption of towed CM) mod by Amizaur"

line added in headers.

If what is in your doctrine directory is standard SCS 326 bytes long doctrine, then you have the answer :) and if it's really the modded (700+ bytes with note in headers) file, then we have a problem and have to check why it isn't working.

[Amizaur]

BTW, I tested the very short WireWatch sensor (200 yards)... and although the sim keeps the ownship tgttrack, it does not update the solution once the sensor loses contact (which is the way it SHOULD work)...

Well then it really has to stay long range, but maybe not 350000m but reduce it just to longest possible torpedo range, or even longest possible wire range. After that wire is broken anyway and wire watch is not needed anymore.
I hoped it can be short range or even disabled after own sub is detected...
I though that because in Maverick case tgt once locked was not refreshed and homing worked perfectly. I wonder then if a torpedo would still home on a sub if it's sensor was disabled :-)

P.S. One day I tried to make a torpedo seeker with two very narrow sensor cones looking to the front-sides in V patter (so NOT to the front) and after target is locked and torpedo turns to it, target is outside seeker cone and target don't get active pings anymore :-) Evil weapon, would work great against non maneuvering surfaces if proximity fuse was added. Only if it maneuvers and gets out of the "blind" front cone, it's detected once again by one of side looking seekers and again homed on... it was working crudely and I planned to improve it later but forgot :)

P.S.2 Looking at torpedo seeker cone (just wanted to try once more what I described above) I noticed that seeker cone parameters are set only for azimuth (+/- 45 deg for example) but in elevation it's 0 so either not used or... all around 360deg ! For years it was annoying me that torpedos running in level detects targets even directly above them so out of real seeker's cone. I don't remember now if I tried to set seeker cones correct in elevation too and if it worked... Anyone knows if elevation settings works at all for sensors in DW ?

P.S.3 AN-SPS-55 has set cone in both azimuth and elevation (+/-10deg) so it should work ! Also CIWS seeker is limited in elevation to 40deg.

I think we should set this to correct value for all torpedo and missile seekers (then you can escape torpedo seeker cone not only in horizontal plane, but in vertical too !! And torpedo depth settings become much more important, torp set to wrong depth and enabled too close would have target out of cone in elevation, currently it's impossible !)
I would set sensor cone elevation angle for same value or little less than azimuth angle (so for example an ADCAP with cone +/-45 deg in azimuth would have +/- 30-45 deg cone in elevation).
Setting this to correct value for air radars (especially MH-60 and P-3, but also EW and fighters) is an option - could have a positive effect on realism, Seahawk and Orion radars would have correct minimum distance if flying high, couldn't detect a close surface tgt from high altitude. But for weapon seekers it's a must !

For sub and ship sonars it's not that important, most sensors have 180+ deg cones so can hear straight down or up also... Maybe for the actives... then you' should have a minimum effective distance for deep submerged contacts... but I can easily imagine that ship mounted active sonar with >180deg azimuth cone, can scan directly underneath too ?

[Amizaur]

In terms of passive decoys, AI never drop passive decoys in LWAMI.

Maybe they should ? A noisy sub like Han attacked by passive torp is just dead meat now...? It it the same for ships or ships do use passive CMs, I can't remember now...:hmm:

[LuftWolf]

It is a different doctrine, so they tend to use both in a few numbers when attacked, for those with OTS CM's.

I'm going to do some work on both the SubDef doctrine to prevent grounding and the SubEvadWep doctrine to give better evasion capability and more intelligent decoy firing behavior.

The thing is, even with the doctrine as it is now, with two single line changes to the stock doctrine, the subs do a pretty good job of avoiding active torpedoes right now.

With the torpedo ATP mod, passive torpedoes will once again be a good choice for use against deep subs for "a little something different" because I'm going to set the doctrines for passive enabled torpedoes to maintain a RealSpeed of 40kts for the ADCAP and 35kts for the UGST (the max speed of their passive sensors). So the practical difference between firing one or the other at near max operational depth will be something closer to 2-7 kts rather than 10-15kts... and the sensors themselves are going to be fundamentally different, so we are going to see what happens. :)

Cheers,
David

[Amizaur]

I'm going to set the doctrines for passive enabled torpedoes to maintain a RealSpeed of 40kts for the ADCAP and 35kts for the UGST


Well, in fact the ATP mod was in two versions initially. One simply decreased speed with depth without compensating for it (the one used now) and the second, little more complicated, was trying to compensate for speed decrease if only possible - if set to 55kts it can't do anything at depth to keep it, because it's at max throttle already, but if set to 40kts then when slowing at depth it can increase throttle (increasing fuel flow and decreasing the range of course!) adequately to compensate for it and keep 40kts as long as possible (almost to max depth). Do you have this version too ? Of course it has no advanced featrures, but the core of fuel and speed calculations can be moved to current doctrine.

[Molon Labe]

Well, in fact the ATP mod was in two versions initially. One simply decreased speed with depth without compensating for it (the one used now) and the second, little more complicated, was trying to compensate for speed decrease if only possible - if set to 55kts it can't do anything at depth to keep it, because it's at max throttle already, but if set to 40kts then when slowing at depth it can increase throttle (increasing fuel flow and decreasing the range of course!) adequately to compensate for it and keep 40kts as long as possible (almost to max depth). Do you have this version too ? Of course it has no advanced featrures, but the core of fuel and speed calculations can be moved to current doctrine.

Why 35 knots? Heck, even 40 might be low, 45 knots is usually sufficient to get an acquisition. Also, no matter how slow the torp is when it is enabled and searching, it would be a good thing if it accelerated as much as it could without washing out once it acquires a target.

[LuftWolf]

@Amizaur, no I don't have that version, but I was going to code up something that would include a variable switch for when the torpedo was passive enabled to maintain 40kts when possible, although if you have something like this already, please send it to me.

@Molon, the torpedo seekers are going to be completely redone, so we'll see about the speeds. I'm going to design the max passive speed without washout to be 40kts for the adcap and 35kts for the UGST.

The speeds are going to work as follows. If you set the torpedo speed to a certain value, it will set a thottle for that speed at near-surface depth and then work its speed decrease from that value. This is so you can have some kind of control over the range of your torpedoes. If we set the speed to be maintained in general, then deeper torpedoes will use up much more fuel than currently, because the throttle setting will be increased, but the speed will still be the same. The total range travelled by the torpedo would be much less predictable. I think this way is better because if you are setting the speed of a torpedo to be less than max speed, then you are primarily concerned about increasing the total range travelled.

Otherwise, you are making a passive shot, so that's why if the torpedo is passive enabled, it will try to maintain its max passive speed. Keep in mind, this is universal for all torpedoes (although electric are easier to predict because the depth does not effect speed or range). Although, for wireguided torpedoes, I figure, once again, if you are making a slow speed shot, you are trying to shoot a target out of wirerange, so they will behave like the other torpedoes. Although, if you enable them yourself, meaning that you are probably engaging a near target where you want the torpedo making max speed, the options you have are to set max passive speed at 40kts or 35kts for adcap/ugst respectively or max torpedo speed for active homing mode.

I think it will be quite intuitive and user-friendly, taking into account the 85% of cases that make up the majority of ways you want to use the torpedo.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

The speeds are going to work as follows. If you set the torpedo speed to a certain value, it will set a thottle for that speed at near-surface depth and then work its speed decrease from that value. This is so you can have some kind of control over the range of your torpedoes. If we set the speed to be maintained in general, then deeper torpedoes will use up much more fuel than currently, because the throttle setting will be increased, but the speed will still be the same. The total range travelled by the torpedo would be much less predictable. I think this way is better because if you are setting the speed of a torpedo to be less than max speed, then you are primarily concerned about increasing the total range travelled.
Isn't this the way it's working right now?

[LuftWolf]

Yes, with the exception that the torpedoes when passiveenabled don't maintain their maxpassivehoming speed when running deep, but this is straightforward to change.

Cheers,
David

[Amizaur]

Yes, with the exception that the torpedoes when passiveenabled don't maintain their maxpassivehoming speed when running deep, but this is straightforward to change.


I am thinking about the same thing:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93264&page=5

- to make passive enable limit true 40kts :yep:.

Well in my version this required few calculations - calculate the speed decrease (well it's calculated already) and increase setspeed (throttle) accordingly, but before that check if throttle doesn't exceed max (the max ff could be calculated in init section for full throttle setting) or if speed near surface on this setting doesn't exceed max speed... If it does, then set max speed instead...

[LuftWolf]

A quick update for those keeping score:

I have "finished" the core AI doctrines. In terms of the AI, what now needs to be done is to tune all the parameters in the database and make a few unique AI torpedo doctrines.

In terms of the player torpedoes, the individualization process is on its way, but none of the doctrines are entirely finished yet and the parameters need to be finalized for each torpedo. I wanted to get the AI out of the way first, as it is a lot grunt work, and in order to keep everything standardized, I wanted to finish the research along with the final AI database changes.

After this is all done, I have to do the work on the sensors, but this ought to be fairly straightforward.

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

Ok, if for no other reason than to light a fire under my butt and get some testing done, I'm going to release (hopefully) LWAMI Playtest Two around 1:00pm EST (A's vs. Yankee's in FoxHD :rock:).

Not sure what'll be in it yet.

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

Ok, I got caught up doing a few other things. Now for work.

I WILL have something out soon, however.

Cheers,
David