Counter measures for the AI

[madcap30]

hey all.
I was wondering how come, the AI Units dont use CM´S. I have lost several AI Helo´s to sam fire from human subs, And they dont punch out any flares. This behaviour also happens even if the helo is more than 20nm away from the shooter.
I would really like to see some CM´s on the Helo´s at least. So they last a bit longer in prosecuting human subs.


Also what is the story with the Recovery? how come the helo takes forever to get back on the frigate even if the frigate is at all stop.
takes a good 15-20 min for it to land, which is not good when in combat.

Okay im gonna stop ranting for now.

Keep it real
Madcap :arrgh!:

[Molon Labe]

Outside of limited LW/Ami Beta testing, I've never seen an anti-air missile pursue a flare or chaff instead of the real target anyways.

[madcap30]

then they need to change to code in the game. Whats the point of model a Flare & Chaff if they are useless. Makes no sense whatsoever.

What they could do,is to make a proximity zone around the AI unit that dictates if the missile should hit or not. just make it a little random.

[XabbaRus]

I have seen missiles go after chaff and flares.

Got to love the P-3 when you are in the TAcco station and a missile comes inbound. If autopilot is on it starts throwing you all over the place.

I think it mainly needs a doctrine update.

[madcap30]

rgr that, good to hear that the CM´s are actually doing something

[LuftWolf]

I have seen missiles go after chaff and flares.

Got to love the P-3 when you are in the TAcco station and a missile comes inbound. If autopilot is on it starts throwing you all over the place.

I think it mainly needs a doctrine update.

Doctrines only control the behavior of AI platforms, and for air platforms only to a limited degree.

All autocrew behavior for human controlled platforms is in the interface .dll's I am guessing.

[XabbaRus]

But even AI aircraft I have seen dump CMs

[LuftWolf]

Countermeasures ARE doctrine controlled, and aircraft do use them with frequency when they identify incoming missiles.

The reason most times that AI aircraft don't drop against incoming IR guided missiles is that they don't identify and classify them in time, which is more or less the case for aircraft in real life... as the only time you would have a warning of an incoming IR missile (except for experimental or new technology as far as I know) is if the pilot or a crewmember actually saw the missile coming towards the plane or helo.

[Molon Labe]

Countermeasures ARE doctrine controlled, and aircraft do use them with frequency when they identify incoming missiles.

The reason most times that AI aircraft don't drop against incoming IR guided missiles is that they don't identify and classify them in time, which is more or less the case for aircraft in real life... as the only time you would have a warning of an incoming IR missile (except for experimental or new technology as far as I know) is if the pilot or a crewmember actually saw the missile coming towards the plane or helo.

Except that in DW, a "feature" is to sometimes give the airdale a "enemy missile lock" warning for passive IR homing missiles! :hulk:

[BigBadVuk]

Well last night i was playing Orion quick mission set to medium...Just to sharpen my skills..and i chose DATUM search mission.
After 3-4 minutes of playing i get radio message with coordinates of sub but i also get the warnning "Enemy missile lock" so i started to dive and turn and also releasing chaffs all over the place and in 1 moment i heard just WHOOooosh...so i paused the game and turned on show Truth......
When i finaly roteted the camera to look behind my plane i saw white smoke trail some 100 ft behind me...Missile missed my plane and fly directly through staniol cloud......

SO i myst say..YES counter measures DO the job!( at least chaffs do) :arrgh!: :up:

[Molon Labe]

Ah, but did it go for the CM or simply miss?

[BigBadVuk]

Well Orion dont have ECM so effective as lets say B1-B or F15 and it is fairly big and even more SLOW target..so if u miss P-3C at range around 10 nm then how do u expect to kill anything more manuverable and faster??? :88)

And beside that why missile missed me so narow,and why did she hit the chaff(which atm was behind me and a way above me)...I think CM did their job nicely... :up:

[Molon Labe]

If you actually saw it hit the chaff, then great, but the way misses are modeled is the missile essentially travels "through" the target without detonating. This occurs at a set percentage, and I don't think the aircraft type or speed is accounted for.

[XabbaRus]

Except that in DW, a "feature" is to sometimes give the airdale a "enemy missile lock" warning for passive IR homing missiles! :hulk:

Just like pretty much every other sim I have played.

Seriously though I have seen missiles go for the chaff and flare.

[LuftWolf]

Molon, you and I have seen missiles go for flares in a certain test a few weeks ago... :yep: :)

[BigBadVuk]

Tonight i made 1 simple test........
LA class with bunch of tomahawks ready to kill any surface threat and 1 surface ship capable of dispersing CMs..(Sovremennyy )
I was at 130ft depth, and i fired 6 missiles at target just to see what is gonna happen...

Range was about 13nm..All missiles was on target ..BUT!..some 2-3 nm away frim ship 3 tomahawks rised from their low level aproach and acquired chaffs released from russian ship(they missed target by 1.5nm roughly),2 missiles was shot down (by SAM )and 1 managed to slip and hit the ship!...so again i must admit..Chaffs do the job!...Cheers :rock: :arrgh!: :rotfl:

[MaHuJa]

For autonomous seekers like the tasm, and pretty much every ASM/SSM in the game, chaff does indeed work.
I personally cannot remember haven't seen autonomous AAM/SAMs go after them, but they very well might.
What I'm not so sure about is if the same applies to guided missiles, like the sm2. Against those, I haven't observed any countermeasure-caused misses... Only the standard missile fail ratio. (Previous sentence can be read to multiple meanings)

We should get that in the clear. Making the AI CM-happy might help in finding out.

Another thing I'd like to see a helo near a friendly ship under fire drop a couple. We don't have blip enhancers that attracts SSMs, but the chaff line (or flare line) would still help.

[Molon Labe]

Molon, you and I have seen missiles go for flares in a certain test a few weeks ago... :yep: :)

Outside of limited LW/Ami Beta testing, I've never seen an anti-air missile pursue a flare or chaff instead of the real target anyways.

[Molon Labe]

Tonight i made 1 simple test........
LA class with bunch of tomahawks ready to kill any surface threat and 1 surface ship capable of dispersing CMs..(Sovremennyy )
I was at 130ft depth, and i fired 6 missiles at target just to see what is gonna happen...

Range was about 13nm..All missiles was on target ..BUT!..some 2-3 nm away frim ship 3 tomahawks rised from their low level aproach and acquired chaffs released from russian ship(they missed target by 1.5nm roughly),2 missiles was shot down (by SAM )and 1 managed to slip and hit the ship!...so again i must admit..Chaffs do the job!...Cheers :rock: :arrgh!: :rotfl:


Sigh, I'm ready to concede to the people that have seen it happen, but those are not ANTI-AIR missiles! No one is arguing this point! :hulk:

[Molon Labe]

For autonomous seekers like the tasm, and pretty much every ASM/SSM in the game, chaff does indeed work.
I personally cannot remember haven't seen autonomous AAM/SAMs go after them, but they very well might.
What I'm not so sure about is if the same applies to guided missiles, like the sm2. Against those, I haven't observed any countermeasure-caused misses... Only the standard missile fail ratio. (Previous sentence can be read to multiple meanings)

We should get that in the clear. Making the AI CM-happy might help in finding out.

Another thing I'd like to see a helo near a friendly ship under fire drop a couple. We don't have blip enhancers that attracts SSMs, but the chaff line (or flare line) would still help.

Well, I was just playing Riposte yesterday, and I observed the Badgers firing at least one chaff canister per SM-2 fired. I didn't see any missiles actually go for the chaff for sure, but the hit % was in the 25-33% range instead of the 75-80% that I'm used to seeing for the SM-2. I think it's likely that the chaff is having some sort of effect...

This was with LW/Ami 3.0B.

[OKO]

yes definitly effect on CM, on both IR (... with flares of course) and radar missiles (with chaff)

As FFG diver, if you hear your crew releasing a flare (you need to be in auto CM for the FFG) then, you know there is a skimmer around (yes ... AC CM release a flare first against radar guided missiles .......... :huh: )

If you, at this time, release, 4 or 5 chaffs, then do a sharp turn to come back in the middle of them, you don't even need SM2 or CIWS, you will see the skimmer will miss (95% of time) because he will lock a CM.
It's not really eye candy as the missile just disapear, but chaff and flares works from the first day of DW.

So, if you drive an OHP against other surface targets, load only 4 flares and the rest with chaff.

Of course, it's always better to engage the inbound missiles at long range, with SM2, and to switch the CIWS on auto, to maximise the protection of the FFG.

With this tactics, you can fight an AI DDG with very good survival ratio.

[LuftWolf]

This was with LW/Ami 3.0B.


LWAMI 3.00B is old news, use the LWAMI 3.00 preview addition until I unlock my hands and write the proper readme.

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12418

[MaHuJa]

As FFG diver, if you hear your crew releasing a flare (you need to be in auto CM for the FFG) then, you know there is a skimmer around (yes ... AC CM release a flare first against radar guided missiles .......... :huh: )


It will release the one in the first ready launcher on the side the missile comes from. Whatever is loaded there.

[OKO]

huuu ... so I need to put a chaff at first launchers
thanks Mahuja

[LuftWolf]

I put Chaff in all the FFG launchers, since some radar guided missiles even alone or in small groups are deadly for the FFG and sometimes your only defense is multiple clouds of chaff between the missiles and you.

Since IR missiles are mostly slower, lighter, and shorter ranged than their radar guided ASM counterparts, I put my faith in the CIWS and offensive systems (aka. SM-2 or ASuW weapons) to limit my exposure to IR ASMs. :up: