Torpedo Doctrine under LWAMI

[Stretch]

I've been looking for info on launch depth vs. run depth/torpedo speed, etc.

I could not find this in the LWAMI read me and I know through various versions of Sub Command and DW these things have been adjusted. I don't know what is the doctrine for the below version of DW.

Under DW 1.03 Beta with LWAMI 3.0 Beta, can someone answer these questions

When launched, does a torpedo stay at Own Ship (OW) depth until activating then go to run depth, or go to set run depth immediately?

Torpedo speed. If set at 35 knots does the fish accelerate to 55 knots when active?

Thanks!

[Molon Labe]

I'm pretty sure that LW/Ami does not make any changes regarding the depths torpedoes run at after launch and go to when enabled.

[Stretch]

Thanks for the reply. There have been a few changes in the past, now I can't remember how it is set up now.

[Nikita]

BTW, does AI use wire guidance? In LWAMI and original game.

[Molon Labe]

I've never seen an AI torp resteered.

[LuftWolf]

The only edits to the torpedo doctrine that relate to the way human launched torpedoes behave up to LWAMI 3.00b has been the removal of a bad variable left over from Sub Command that prevented the torpedo from beginning to search properly again after losing its track, ie "straight running torpedo syndrome".

Amizaur is working on extensive changes to the torpedo doctrines for LWAMI 3.xx, however, the work on this has been complicated by certain aspects of the physics engine that need to be stabilized in the version that hopefully will be/has been released today, DW 1.03.

Right now, all torpedoes fired will stay at their preset speeds for their whole run, and will run at their launch depth until activated at which time they will go to their set depth and search.

[Bellman]

I sorely miss Toms torp mod from SCX and wonder whether we will ever see anything similar in DW ?

The ability to implement changes on the run between Search Depth and Preset Depth opened up tactical options.
Also the accelerate/decelerate option could now additionaly permit change of active/passive roles.

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur is working on creating a complete set of doctrine mods for each individual torpedo that can be fired by a playable platform. :up:

It's very complex work, so it will probably have to wait until 3.01 to be included, but it will completely rework each torpedo's behavior individually, with plenty of room for expansion in the future.

The long and the short of it is that actual torpedo physics will come into play, eg deeper equals slower and shorter. ;) And much much more... :know:

[Bellman]

:D Magic ! :rock:

''And much much more... '' :huh: :o :up: :|\

[Molon Labe]

I sorely miss Toms torp mod from SCX and wonder whether we will ever see anything similar in DW ?

The ability to implement changes on the run between Search Depth and Preset Depth opened up tactical options.
Also the accelerate/decelerate option could now additionaly permit change of active/passive roles.

I probably miss this feature more than anything else. Seems like every time I play I want to be able to use this feature tactically, but we don't have it...

[Amizaur]

Well... by the way sorry for being unavailable for a time, I was little buzy... New torpedo mods include speed-up after enable among many other features, but not depth changes. It's very easy to implement but I can't use Toms way of depth management without his permission. I have some ideas for even more detailed speed/depth/mode control, but it won't be easy to use... could even lead to completly lose control over torpedo for non advanced user that get lost in managing different torpedo modes... maybe I should make alternate version with advanced controls for anyone to use if he wants additional options.
Now I have to make some changes to basic torpedo mods and send them to Luftwolf. Of course I can relase them separatrely too, but they aren't stand-alone mods unfortunately, there is separate doctrine for every playable torpedo (with it's performance data) and have to be assigned to torpedo in DWEdit.

I wonder if bug with torpedo range is fixed in final patch, I can compensate this in database and doctrines but would have to know which ranges use (normal or correcting) with new patch... It was trivial bug so I hope it's fixed and it was probably sign of new feature being implemented in game engine by SCS, now range of every torpedo should depend somehow on torpedo speed even in stock game :up: . We'll know today I hope :)

[Molon Labe]

Get permission! It's important to have a depth feature to fully take advantage of underwater terrain!

[Amizaur]

Would you be so kind and ask him...? ;)

Or maybe there are other ways of enabling "depth change" mode than enable - preenable sequence ? Any ideas ? Hmm maybe I could use multiple use of only one button (for example 3 times enable or 3 times preenable in one second intervals), have to check this.

[Bellman]

:D Amizaur thanks for your update of WIP. :rock: :up: :|\

The depth control thing is so important - the current constraints are highly unrealistic. It would be a great selective option.
Multiple pushes of a single button would be no problem as it would be easy to keep tally of progress - possibly easier
than the previous SCX method.

Is there any chance that someone might contact Tom for his agreement ?

[Amizaur]

FWIK there is no contact with Tom :( but maybe other SCX/DWX members know something more ?
I'll try to find another way of ordering depth changes... Now where do I write about what exactly pressing Enable or Preenable does from doctrine point of view ?? I have noted it somwhere but where...? Some variable is set IIRC... Preenable ---> Runtoenable set to -1 ? Maybe I could store this information somwhere else and use this variable for detecting multiple "preenable" clicks. Will try.

edit: OK I know :know:

RuntoEnable at start = set runtoenable value in meters
then
click on "Enable" button ----> RuntoEnable = 0
click on "Preenable" button -----> RuntoEnable = -1

now knowing this one can plan some evil way of torpedo control... ;)

P.S. If only changing PreenableCourse from doctrine level updated Heading value displayed on fire control screen... life would be so easier... now it doesn't :(

[Bellman]

You sir, are no mere Wizard but a Time Lord. :|\

:sunny: All you and LW have done is greatly appreciated. :up: :rock:............................each and every day. :yep:

[Amizaur]

OK I have found new evil method of torpedo control ;) you will just have to click on preenable button few times in a row, but with at least one second pause between clicks because doctrine can notice button was used only once a second. So click on "Preenable" 2 or 3 times and then... what would you like ?

To cycle depths between launch and search or what ? With some more coding I could also let you input exact depth value by setting it by torpedo heading designator (those left right arrows). Or speed value. Or sonar mode :)
But this requires some more work so at first multiple preenable button clicking could just cycle between varius depths, now question is what depths and in what order ?

[Molon Labe]

I would suggest being able to toggle between launch and set depth, in order to fire from behind terrain and steer the torp over the feature, and perhaps have it go back down.

For speed, the ability to run the torpedo out at max speed, then slow to search (especially for passives) to improve sensor effictiveness would be very helpful. Ideally, a torp that acquired a target while being used this way would accellerate to the maximum speed it could reach without losing its sensor lock on the target.

[Amizaur]

OK I'll try to make it. The second thing you said (launch torp at max speed and slow down to search) was a part of new doctrines already :-) Passive torpedos will automatically slow down to 40kts after enable. Active will automatically speed up to max after enable.

[Driftwood]

hehehehehe, exxxxxcellent! :arrgh!:

[LuftWolf]

We are all fortunate to have someone around with the talent of Amizaur. :yep: :up:

His work on the doctrines in particular is exceedingly elegant. ;)

I'm just hitting two stones together and hoping to get a stone axe in comparison with the stuff I do on the mod. :oops: :)

[Fish]

OK I'll try to make it. The second thing you said (launch torp at max speed and slow down to search) was a part of new doctrines already :-) Passive torpedos will automatically slow down to 40kts after enable. Active will automatically speed up to max after enable.
Amizaur, does the surface nois (seastate 5) have any influence on the search capability of the passive torpedo?

[Amizaur]

I would say yes in the mod, rather no in stock game. In stock game passive (and active) seekers are so sensitive that only det curve restricts it's range so ambient noise has little or no effect. In the mod passive seekers where tuned by sensivity to detect given target at given range and things like layers and ambient (sea state) noise have great effect.
So it could happen that deep running (not affected by sea state noise) passive torpedo detects a surface target, go for it and when close to surface has sensor affected by sea state noise (strongest near surface) and loose target. Not very probable because it would be very close to target when coming close to surface, but maybe for very weak targets in high sea state...

BTW grrrr torpedo range bug not fixed in 1.03 :down: to see it launch two torpedos one at 55kts second at 30kts, the faster will go further (beyond max range), the slower will not reach max range...
I'm glad I made versions of torpedo mods for playables - normal for corrected and compensating for uncorrected range bug. But it's only for playable torps, most of non-playable will be bugged (range at max speed increased).

[LuftWolf]

Oh man... :damn: :damn: :damn:

Just to be clear, for LWAMI 3.00 I'm going to leave things as they stand now in terms of torpedo function.

I want to have a chance to look at all of these additions and problems as a group together and wait to get some feedback from SCS about their timetable in fixing this, but you guys can count on some kind of correction for this as well as the enhanced function torpedo doctrines for 3.01. :up:

Amizaur, can you send me the latest versions of your torpedo doctrines when you get a chance? Also, have you tried to add any corrections in the database for the torpedo mod or the overrunning?

I'm thinking if you want to add more advanced functions like depth it would be a good idea to wait to release all the torpedo changes as a group for 3.01.

[Amizaur]

Of course, I have to make some changes to doctrines (and they are in many versions already so it's some work) but will try to send you working versions today. Yes I have done calcs how to compensate for torpedo range bug so what range set in database to get correct real range, numbers are ready.

I have almost ready advanced torpedo control but I want to test it myself a bit too before relasing :). So it will probably take few days to have it ready and tested. It would work this way - first press of enable button - passive enable and torpedo goes to search depth, second use of enable button - active enable and speed up to max speed, one preenable button click - preenable, multiple preenable button clicks - depth changes in order ceiling - launch depth - search depth. Quite simple in usage, MUCH more simple than my previous ideas :). So every torpedo will have both passive and active mode available at will. And with preenable button you can send torpedo to ceiling after launch to maximize range or to avoid obstacle and return it to launch depth or search depth later.
Well I'll try to write a simple and clear manual for the new torpedo software mod with all functions described :)

[LuftWolf]

Great, thanks Amizaur! :rock:

I can't wait to try the new doctrines. :up:

[Bellman]

:D Amizaur - excellent proposals :up: :rock: :|\

I assume hitting pre-enable when enabled completely cancels the prior enabled state ? So on wishing to return to
enabled you make a fresh choice rather than going back to the last enabled option ?

On depth - starting from launch at own depth, my preferences for input sequencies would be:-
1. Search. 2. Ceiling (Wakehomers) 3. Search 4. Back to Launch, preset speed and depth. ( # sequence resets)
But if you can dial through the selections to reach the required state then the above is not necessary.

Whats on the table already is a feast. :yep: :sunny:

[Raven434th]

But what about the basic function of the "enable mode" being reversed?...ie...the pinging in pre enable vs no ping in enable mode?Won't this have to be fixed first inorder to have a working doctrine??

[Stretch]

Thanks for the replies and all the hard work. I'll check in to see when things are modded for the features.

[Amizaur]

But what about the basic function of the "enable mode" being reversed?...ie...the pinging in pre enable vs no ping in enable mode?Won't this have to be fixed first inorder to have a working doctrine??

I'm sory but I don't understand this... Enabled mode will be still enabled mode, but just as before were two kinds of torpedos (active pinged after enable, passive not) now you will have two kinds of enable, first enable will be like passive torp, and hitting enable button again will switch it to normal enabled active torp. Hitting preenable (once) will preenable weapon as usual. The only difference is enable being two-stage, first passive, second active.

[Bellman]

Hes referring to the problem he reported in 'No new posts Torpedo malfunctions in 1.03 official'

In the preenable state the torp pings. It is claimed also that in enable the torp loses ping and tracking ability.
I havent been able to confirm this last claimed fault - it works fine in my new vanilla + 1.03.

[Raven434th]

well...to be more percise in my post...when in enable mode AFTER I've switched from pre enable,...the torp stopped pinging,but is still tracking...........silently :down: A very deadly situation indeed.And if this a bug...then your torpedoe doctrines are gonna be affected as well I would think.

[Amizaur]

NOW I understand what were you talking about when I read about the new bug and checked it myself... sorry didn't know that... yes it's a big problem, I can't imagine playing MP games with this bug...