The game model mostly needs...

[Deathblow]

Which addition to the game would incur the most improvement to the game model.

Personally I like launch transients myself. Too many times I've had Kilos and Akulas 5km off my port launching waves and waves of missiles and my sonar is none the wisers.... a pretty gross misrepresentation in the game model IMHO... is pretty much a downer in the gameplay.

[Pigfish]

Geez you need an "all of the above" catagory.

If I had to select it would be more helo control with the FFG. :yep:

[Molon Labe]

The LW/Ami mod takes care of 90% of the launch transient issue, so I went with helo control. :up:

[Bellman]

:) As a bubblehead, I liked the improved torp control of SCX11, so that gets my vote.

[Bellman]

:lol: ML and Pigfish - great sigs. :roll: :|\ :up: :sunny:

Any other new ones out there ? Got to beat that Penguin Slapper and the Killer Mog.

[Sea Demon]

I would love to have better control of the helo's. Being able to order it to use dipping sonar would be nice.

BTW, a little off-topic, but I made one of those Sonar Visual Aid's there Bellman. Very useful. :up: Great idea.

Sea Demon

[goldorak]

I'm amazed you didn't include the submarine cheat of not being detected by radar when the masts are out or when the sail is over the water.
This has to be fixed at all costs because the p-3 looses the ability to use its mad/sad sensor at low altitude (can't detect subs on surface because of sam danger) and can't use long range radar to detect surfaced masts.
At this rate over 50% of the effectiveness of the p-3 goes out the window.
Now I understand that most of you are bubbleheads and so don't give a damn about the p-3, but right now if there is one thing that has to be fixed is this problem.
The p-3 right now is the most penalized (because of these bugs/cheats) unit in DW.

[Deathblow]

I'm not a multiplayer, so I've never really thought about that cheat too much. The AI seems to respond to surface subs appropriately, though MP is still a problem I gather.

Geez you need an "all of the above" catagory

hehe, left that off on purpose, because it would be too easy a choice. :)

The LW/Ami mod takes care of 90% of the launch transient issue

Still very broken IMHO. :doh:

[Molon Labe]

Several bubbleheads have been wanting detectable masts.

And considering the detection ranges of buoys in stock DW, I don't think the P-3 got shorted much. They pretty much clean house in MP games.

[XabbaRus]

Better Helo control on the FFG. At the moment you can't tell it to change altitude/speed, use dipping sonar.

Though I think SCS are looking at this for the future. Fingers crossed.

Then detectable masts and very importantly the ability for the AI aircraft and ships to detect masts too AND a semi submerged sub with just the sail poking throuigh the water.

[Deathblow]

I have to throw another vote in for launch transits. This is a really frustrating piece of the game mechanic for me.

I had a Kilo not 5nm off my starboard that was launching Starfish, after Starfish, after Starfish at me and I was none the wiser where the torps were coming from. Everytime I evaded a torp another one would drop outta the air. I assumed that it was a Helo or P3, but after finally getting blown outta the water and replaying the mission it turned out to be a Kilo not 5nm from me :shifty: :stare: .

Come on..... this just isn't right, missile launches need a transient consquences.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I selected launch transients as well - it'd be nice to get a "Target is flooding tubes" warning too.

But in the longer (perhaps very long) term...

Manevering
What I REALLY want is better depth controls, including the use of the depth planes and even a ballast control panel for all the subs you can access off the left side. Yes, I know that this is a tactics sim so we can't have everything, but we already have manual rudder control and I saw people complaining that the COW is conservative with his angles, which makes it difficult to crash dive. And the workarounds required to botom the boat. Let US decide how fast we wanna dive. We can always select Autocrew if we don't want to.

Next up is perhaps manual RPM and pitch control. You can implement that on the FFG right away simply by making those numbers clickable and a little shuffle on the other panels will make those numbers available too. It would also open up at least one possibility of deception tactics - there will be several solutions of RPM and pitch for a certain speed, and you can use that to screw the DEMON analyzer on an opposing sub. We may also be able to implement the "Do not cavitate" or "Cavitate" orders that way, which I suspect have to do with how the props pitch and RPM are handled for better acceleration or for best noncavitation.

Sonar
Maybe implement some of the new options available in the FFG-7. At the very least, give us a "Array Depth" readout so we don't have to guess, followed by the new Active Sonar modes.

P.S. Weapons
I understand the Americans have a MOSS and the Russians have MG-74 through MG-114 series of torpedo sized decoys. Could we implement something like that eventually to provide our own false targets?

[bubblehd647]

Transients and active showing up on the PBB. Also an "Emergency deep" order for subs. SH3 has a crash dive order and I was surprised when I found DW didn't have a similar setup.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Transients and active showing up on the PBB. Also an "Emergency deep" order for subs. SH3 has a crash dive order and I was surprised when I found DW didn't have a similar setup.

Transients I understand, but active sonar? What's wrong with using the dedicated receiver for that? If you believe the game, the sonars are out of the frequency sensitivity of the ordinary broadband sonar which only goes to 2000Hz...

Idea: Maybe you could try doing it yourself with
http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/DWEdit-1-1-22-1.zip

Try changing the maximum frequency of your Passive Sphere array to 20000. I hadn't tried it, but it might work...

[SaxMan]

Got DW right before Christmas, and oh what fun it is to drive the OHP.... :up:

I think there's been something missing all along, since Jane's 688i. When I fire a wire-guided torpedo, and it runs to its enable point.....it should send back information like "I'm homing on something" (when it finds a target) and "I've lost what I was homing on" (if it has been homing and has now lost the target). Otherwise it's nearly impossible to tell that the weapon has missed it's target.

I have no first hand information but I can't believe there isn't something like this in real life.

[LuftWolf]

Torpedo feedback can be easily enabled in the database, and an earlier version of the LWAMI Mod did just this.

However, this caused much game imbalance for a number of reasons so we decided to remove it as a feature from wireguided torpedoes.

In terms of knowing when your torpedoes are homing there is a simple rule: if they are going straight and are enabled, they have found a target; if they are snaking or circling, they don't have a target.

Sometimes, using the stock doctrines a torpedo can get "stuck" going straight after it loses its track, but we have eliminated this problem for subsequent version of LWAMI.

[Three14]

Sub props have pitch control?

Seems quite reasonable in retrospect. Would be interesting if it could trick DEMON, make you more or less detectable, or whatever.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Sub props have pitch control?

Seems quite reasonable in retrospect. Would be interesting if it could trick DEMON, make you more or less detectable, or whatever.

I'm not sure, but I think so. It'd be a little hard to do a Back Full otherwise, and certainly they could do it for the frigate, where we can already SEE the pitch change with the speed so we know that it has already been implemented, just that we have no manual control over it yet.

Yes, now I remember where I saw they have pitch control - in Warships1.com before it went down, a copy is available here (http://web.archive.org/web/20030415180024/www.warships1.com/RUSssn29_Akula_specs.htm).

Note "controllable pitch screw"

Since LWAMI 3.0b somehow accidentally disabled the Ordered speed control, I wonder whether the maker can accidentally enable manual control on the frigate :D

If they don't, then forget what I said about putting it on the sub.

[LuftWolf]

Since LWAMI 3.0b somehow accidentally disabled the Ordered speed control, I wonder whether the maker can accidentally enable manual control on the frigate

The problem is actually more complex than I had originally anticipated. We need SCS to fix it at the level of the engine and interface for it to work properly in both modded and stock versions.

I'm fairly certain that most if not all subs have a fixed-pitch screw.

[Three14]

I only know about it from the air side. A pitch change seems the most straightforward way to go reverse. I suppose gearing inside the boat could make the prop turn the other way, though, without that much additional complication.

Density changes in water may not be as large as in the air, so maybe other pitch changes aren't necessary (and the tactical stuff is probably trivial in a reality with doppler and who knows what else).

I saw a prop in reality and I don't remember it being variable pitch. The logic to it just seems so sound, though.

[OneShot]

Surface ships often use variable pitch props, however submarines have (to my knowledge) mostly fixed set props. Actually the exact characteristics of submarine props like the LA SSN are closely held secrets. Reason for this is the use of materials involved and the build (for lack of a better word) of the prop has a huge impact on the sound profile generated by the sub. The ideal prop would ensure best "grip" at all speeds while being still silent and of course not generating cavitation.

Since Surface ships generally don't have to think that much about it and are more interested in efficiency, handling and all that stuff they use more "advanced" technics like using variable pitch propellers and so on.

[Deathblow]

Idea: Maybe you could try doing it yourself with
http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/DWEdit-1-1-22-1.zip

Try changing the maximum frequency of your Passive Sphere array to 20000. I hadn't tried it, but it might work...

Something similar has been tried before. The result is just a conglomerate of passive sonar tracks all over the navmap that just keep popping up. No real advantage and pretty much clutters up the screen.

Curiously, a different problem occurs when trying to give the game a "launch transient sensor". We can give the missiles a sonar sound level, but that just results in a "new sonar contact" appearing from the Autocrew, but not the needed "launch transiet"....Giving the subs a launch transient sensor doesn't work as well without the ability to tell the AI and Autocrew to acknowledge and respond to that sensor.

[Richard G]

How about a finished patch.

[Caseck]

No kidding.

And while you're at it... AGM-84 for the P-3!

And 25mm for the OHP!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Torpedo feedback can be easily enabled in the database, and an earlier version of the LWAMI Mod did just this.

However, this caused much game imbalance for a number of reasons so we decided to remove it as a feature from wireguided torpedoes.

I just tried doing this myself. I'm already on the side of regretting it. Sure, occasionally I get a useful and accurate contact ("feedback"). More often, I get junk. Sometimes, I get Feedback even after I cut the wire (at least it is contacting on the real ship's exact position that time). Or I don't get feedback with the wire up. Or I just launched the thing and I see a T0x passivetorpedo contact... just a mess, if this keeps up I'd have to get my butt back into the databases...

Did this happen to you?

[LuftWolf]

Yep. :cry:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Yep. :cry:

Considering that the UUV uses the same Feedback mechanism, how well does it work? I've never really tried it - the thing's so slow (and a torpedo-like seeker of such short range) I can't imagine many people WANTING to use it.

I've already turned my UUV into a MG-114 (Akula MOSS-like decoy in the hopes it'd be more useful), but then I realized that the 688 and the Akula seems to use the SAME decoy. I guess what I'd have to do is use the 53-65K torpedo for the MG-114 (I don't think many would load that in lieu of UGST) and the UUV for the American MOSS.

[LuftWolf]

The UUV is actually quite necessary in multiplayer once you understand how to use it.

[Angle]

Being able to load out the sonobouys on the FFG's helos would be nice. Getting rid of the vlad sonobouys(lwami mod) for shallow water ops would be handy indeed.

[OneShot]

Being able to load out the sonobouys on the FFG's helos would be nice. Getting rid of the vlad sonobouys(lwami mod) for shallow water ops would be handy indeed.
I guess you mean the AI Helos ... yeah I guess the FFG drivers would certainly welcome this.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

1) Actually model the propagation delay when using active sonar. I once used ONE ping on a Seawolf from an Akula and the return was very bright. I realized the Seawolf had released an Active Decoy.

The only way it could have time to do so is if it detected my ping before it even reached the sub, or else I should at least have one clear ping before it fires off a decoy.

Not that I really mind designating on the bright blob that's the CM. It is a lot easier than designating on subs and the sub is close enough that designating on the CM is good enough for a shot. But it definitely is not realistic.

Something similar happens to radar. I decide to damn the torpedoes and activate the radar on my sub. Even before it turns on, I've been Counterdetected. I swear the trigger is me raising my radar mast rather than the mast actually emitting.

2) Improved auto TMA plotting when dealing with air contacts. In fact, maybe air contacts should not be analyzed using TMA methods. Generally, what happens is that the first few Marks on the radar receiver allows Otto to come up with something decent on say a helicopter. But then the solution refuses to adapt. The solution's estimated bearing won't even align with the newly received bearings.

[Angle]

1) Actually model the propagation delay when using active sonar. I once used ONE ping on a Seawolf from an Akula and the return was very bright. I realized the Seawolf had released an Active Decoy.

The only way it could have time to do so is if it detected my ping before it even reached the sub, or else I should at least have one clear ping before it fires off a decoy.

Not that I really mind designating on the bright blob that's the CM. It is a lot easier than designating on subs and the sub is close enough that designating on the CM is good enough for a shot. But it definitely is not realistic.

Something similar happens to radar. I decide to damn the torpedoes and activate the radar on my sub. Even before it turns on, I've been Counterdetected. I swear the trigger is me raising my radar mast rather than the mast actually emitting.

2) Improved auto TMA plotting when dealing with air contacts. In fact, maybe air contacts should not be analyzed using TMA methods. Generally, what happens is that the first few Marks on the radar receiver allows Otto to come up with something decent on say a helicopter. But then the solution refuses to adapt. The solution's estimated bearing won't even align with the newly received bearings.

Reminds me of SC/scx. I created a mission once that had a kilo surfaced. I put on show truth, surface, and turned on my radar. As soon as the switch was flipped (radar didn't even raise all the way) the kilo launched a full load of starfish. Had range and bearing with esm!

[LuftWolf]

1) Actually model the propagation delay when using active sonar. I once used ONE ping on a Seawolf from an Akula and the return was very bright. I realized the Seawolf had released an Active Decoy.

The only way it could have time to do so is if it detected my ping before it even reached the sub, or else I should at least have one clear ping before it fires off a decoy.

Not that I really mind designating on the bright blob that's the CM. It is a lot easier than designating on subs and the sub is close enough that designating on the CM is good enough for a shot. But it definitely is not realistic.

An AI sub won't release an active decoy with pinging from an object other than a weapon, they can tell the difference and so you can you by the frequency range on the active intercept.

The SeaWolf fired the decoy for some reason other than your ping.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

An AI sub won't release an active decoy with pinging from an object other than a weapon, they can tell the difference and so you can you by the frequency range on the active intercept.

The SeaWolf fired the decoy for some reason other than your ping.

I was playing the under-ice scenario in the Future Fleet scenarios. I hacked it so I can play as the Akulas as well as the default Seawolf.

OK, I had weapons in the water, but they have already missed and I've already given up trying to steer them back.

Auto-TMA shows the Seawolf has slowed to nothing again (a few knots). Pretty good AI there, methinks. I turned on Show Truth to verify this (1 knot, but closer than the auto-TMA thought). Then I decided to ping him to get a firing solution.

I got that bright blob, and I turned on Show Truth. The Seawolf is very close to its obviously newly released decoys and maneuvering. Nobody else had fired weapons, including the Seawolf. If there is another cause, I ain't seeing it even on Show Truth.

Not that it was a bad decision. I couldn't find his real body on the active sonar. I fired torpedoes that missed, again. That's when I decided when I next ping him, I'd fire a spread of 6 SS-N-27 ASW missiles (in my external tubes) at his general position. He did the countermeasure thing again, and I designated on his bright blob and set up the spread. This time, it worked.

BTW, if I rachet down the Pinging Frequency on the Akula, am I likely to get a bit more range out of the active sonar?

[LuftWolf]

That's interesting behavior for the AI. :hmm:

In terms of the active sonar, it doesn't matter how often you ping in terms of what you see as long as you let the ping travel all the way across the screen, although multiple pings will sometimes show contacts that a single ping would not, and the acoustic frequency for the active sonar is fixed. If you have the display range set closer, it will be easier to see contacts in those ranges.

Note, there is a difference between the high frequency sonar and the medium frequency sonar. I assume you are using the medium frequency sonar.

[Miika]

2) Improved auto TMA plotting when dealing with air contacts. In fact, maybe air contacts should not be analyzed using TMA methods. Generally, what happens is that the first few Marks on the radar receiver allows Otto to come up with something decent on say a helicopter. But then the solution refuses to adapt. The solution's estimated bearing won't even align with the newly received bearings.

I agree with this. In some missions it simply is not smart to use your radar until the target is within missile range. You should be able to use your ESM sensor to have at least some idea of the target's position.

One (simple?) thing I really would like to have is more drawing tools, at least the ability to draw lines in the nav map, for those quick rough estimates etc.

Miika

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

acoustic frequency for the active sonar is fixed. If you have the display range set closer, it will be easier to see contacts in those ranges.

You mean, I can change the sensitivity of my bow and towed sonar arrays, adjust the acceleration of my ship, change my SET-53s for Yu-5s (though not the superficial labelling) and more with a Database Editor, but I can't change the operating frequency of my MF active sonar?!

[LuftWolf]

I didn't realize you were talking about database editing.

For active sonar, I don't believe the transmitting frequency matters, it is only the frequency that shows up on the receiving platforms' active intercept.

As far as I know, only the sensitivity (Nrd) of the active sonar has any effect on its operating ability.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I didn't realize you were talking about database editing.

I guess I should have been more clear, but come on, we all saw the interface. It is very single-layer :D

For active sonar, I don't believe the transmitting frequency matters, it is only the frequency that shows up on the receiving platforms' active intercept.

As far as I know, only the sensitivity (Nrd) of the active sonar has any effect on its operating ability.

Thanks.

[Splobb]

I think the best addition for gameplay would be to be able to fly the Helo while playing FFG. That is to be able to switch to the pilot seat and go and use the dipping sonar myself, and then switch back to the bridge again. Hey I know its not realistic but it would improve gameplay by a mile. For the life of me I can't figure out why they didn't include this option in the game, as you wouldn't think it would be too difficult to impliment. What does everyone else think?

[goldorak]

I think the best addition for gameplay would be to be able to fly the Helo while playing FFG. That is to be able to switch to the pilot seat and go and use the dipping sonar myself, and then switch back to the bridge again. Hey I know its not realistic but it would improve gameplay by a mile. For the life of me I can't figure out why they didn't include this option in the game, as you wouldn't think it would be too difficult to impliment. What does everyone else think?

Since its supposed to be a realistic sim, I don't see the gift of ubiquity as being an essential requisite :rotfl:
On the other hand, the impossibility to command the dipping sonar from the ffg is a pain in the neck.
Of course you can always launch buoys form the helicopter and it bypasses the dipping sonar problem just fine, but yes if S.C.S could fix this little "problem" it would make the sim better :up:

[TLAM Strike]

:roll: 'nuff said...

[Splobb]

Golorak. I take your point about the realism issue. Then again you could always imagine you were a really gung ho captain who likes to get into the thick of the action in a helo lol.
Anyway it was just a thought, it just gets so frustrating not being able to use the dipping sonar on the AI helo's. Sonar bouys are OK but you don't have the optiion of choosing which type to load the helo up with, so half of them may be useless in the conditions. If you then happen to drop a few in the wrong place, you have to head back to base to reload. It would be so much easier to place a waypoint on the map or go and do it yourself.

[TLAM Strike]

Place a marker with the 'Enter' key and place a Buoy drop waypoint there. :roll:

[SeaQueen]

Being able to load out the sonobouys on the FFG's helos would be nice.

I agree, but I'd still rather have the dipper.