View Full Version : What can we change and what can we not? DAMAGE/Repair/Death
gouldjg
10-10-05, 01:44 PM
Hello all modders and community members.
Just a quick thread to gauge your thoughts
I am about to embark on a New Damage model for SH3 but need to establish what tools and methods I could use to get my desired results ultimately being the end of the quick death screen with the chance of nail biting suspense and escapes. This may or may not be possible but I am prepared to spend some time on this project as I feel we can still get better.
I want to find out what files can be changed that may influence the way we have control over damage, flooding and repairs.
I know about zones.cfg but wondered if anyone has discovered anything regards to being able to abolish the repair crew or reduce the numbers or even their effectiveness.
Can we change the level of skill upgrades?
Hase anyone discovered any other files that may be worth looking into?
Has anyone found any file line etc that may influence any of the above?
Is the Hull integrity still a hardcoded issue?
If you have anything to offer even if it is just wants and desires, please share info no matter how irrelevant you may think it would be.
Welcome back gouldjg.
Well, I know that the hull integrity meter was hidden by the RuB mod, but other than that I know little so far.
My personal desire is to get little men from explosions bobbing in the water and for debris to stay a little longer. As for the uboat, I tried messing about with the zones.cfg, but with only inconclusive results.
Hi gouldjg,
Nice to "see" you again! :up:
I also have plans to work with this issue after conclude my last work on HT mod.
Rubini.
gouldjg
10-10-05, 02:48 PM
Hi Rubini
I am sure that with yours and others involvement and skills, we can really make some dramatice changes.
Whilst you are doing your HT mod (looking forward to the RUB version btw), I will start testing current RUB damage model and playing with a number of Ideas I have floating in my head concerning flooding.
I know Jungman is also looking into this issue as well so I am hoping we can all get together in some form of co-operative group and totally re-write this issue of the quick death screen as well as other interesting additions or should I also say subtractions.
I want to have more control over the repair section and if that does not work, I want to get rid of it and see if I can balance the sub damage when it is just automatic repairing by crew in quarters. People may not follow me here so I stand ready to abolish the idea of getting rid of repair crew but I do have thoughts that we will find something that can be tweaked for a better game.
I do think that when this cloning of the model issue develops further soon we will be able to spawn survivors etc but that is beyond me at the moment so I think I will stick to what I enjoy doing and that is trying to get the best nail biting swearing at your monitor sub damage immersion.
At the moment I want to get an idea of what modders may have found that could be used to help us achieve this new damage model.
Speak soon (back to testing)
HEMISENT
10-10-05, 03:47 PM
Welcom back Gouldjg!
Kpt. Lehmann
10-10-05, 03:59 PM
My two cents... Welcome back and thanks for picking this up gouldjg!
gouldjg wrote:
Do we actually need a repair squad because I know compartments repair themselves when crew are in them only at a lower rate. I just do not know what would happen if we could remove this feature and what possibilities it could give us.
I would say that it is necessary to retain a damage control team for the sake of realism or at least a representation of realism. If we were to get rid of damage control teams, wouldn't it negate the usefulness of the repair skill?
gouldjg
10-10-05, 05:29 PM
Fair Comment
Personally I could live without a repair crew if it would enable better damage but then again I suppose I would have to test by just not using a repair crew for a while and see if it comes up with anything worth looking into. Unlike last time, I want to explore all possible routes before going down on the quickest enhancement.
Another option could be having it so that if one would choose to put men to the repairs station i.e. emergencies, we maybe could speed up fatigue to have a very unhealthy effect on the men.
This may force people to choose more carefully what they want to allocate to the repairs i.e. 1 man to fix a engine problem to 6 men for emergency flooding. As I understand it, Beery mod allows men carry on working at a reduced pace and this does not necessarily stop departments from running. Am I right or wrong?
Again, another long test but it may have a good effect in game. I like this idea as it can simulate extreme tiredness, traumatic stress and maybe some organisation loss on board. I just think it is very boring being able to throw loads of men onto repairs with not a care in the world apart from stop that leak.
Just out of plain interest and for experimental reasons, what do I adjust to make repairs more energy consuming?
I may draw a blank but it may be worth a look into
What are your thoughts?
While you're poking through all the damage files is there any chance you could find a way to add random mechanical breakdowns and such :hmm: .
I think the energy consuption rates for different compartments is in the basic.cfg
I want to find out what files can be changed that may influence the way we have control over damage, flooding and repairs.
I think the answer to this lies in Zones.cfg. If we can find a way for the U-boat to start sinking as soon as there's flooding anywhere in the boat we'll have your nailbiting suspense and escapes, plus fewer instant death screens, and more U-boats being crushed to death rather than being instantly killed by a DC. The variables for flotation and flotability are the ones to tweak.
Kpt. Lehmann
10-11-05, 12:30 AM
Let us be careful though not to wind up with naturally sinking U-boats. :dead:
I want to find out what files can be changed that may influence the way we have control over damage, flooding and repairs.
I think the answer to this lies in Zones.cfg. If we can find a way for the U-boat to start sinking as soon as there's flooding anywhere in the boat we'll have your nailbiting suspense and escapes, plus fewer instant death screens, and more U-boats being crushed to death rather than being instantly killed by a DC. The variables for flotation and flotability are the ones to tweak.
Well, gouldjg is the one whose instructions I used for producing the RUb 1.43/1.44 zones files. :)
I have recently reduced the floatability values - thus making the sub less prone to sinking down due to damage - but I'm sure it could be tweaked further.
gouldjg -
Again, just want to draw your attention to what I've done based on your work in RUb 1.43/44. Me and Teddy Bar have done quite a number of tests on this. I've also adjusted certain weapons, especially surface guns, to be more damaging - particularly in terms of hull integrity. The goal all along has been to balance the 3 key mods - RealDC, AirPower, and your Hollywood work - into RUb for a more realistic survival experience.
Myself, Beery and Teddy Bar have tested this quite extensively and, to a point, the model proved rather satisfactory. This, along with some sensor mods based largely on Jungman's work, are the basis of what Beery calls the "ASW mod" that's included in RUb.
More testing would be great - as would be more tweaks. More alternatives for those who aren't neccesarily out for straight realism would also be great - I'm sure some would like to see the "flying sailors" again :lol:
But just play around and abuse my model for a while, see what you find wrong there and go from there - no need to reinvent the bicycle :)
Let us be careful though not to wind up with naturally sinking U-boats. :dead:
Hehe, somehow I don't think a mod with naturally sinking U-boats would be very popular.
When near to crush-depth, the internal lights fail, I'd be most interested to see this effect used more often when under DC attack. No idea if this is possible.
Kpt. Lehmann
10-11-05, 09:03 AM
When near to crush-depth, the internal lights fail, I'd be most interested to see this effect used more often when under DC attack. No idea if this is possible.
Cool idea! ...or "intermittant" failure, where they flicker on and off a couple of times with near DC misses.
gouldjg
10-11-05, 11:17 AM
CCIP
Hi again,
No fear mate, I have no intention to go rushing in and throwing out another mod without first checking the work that has been done so far. Up to now I like the feel of what you and others have done so far.
I need to get the feel for a few days before tweaking this further. I know there is more that can be done but we are at a stage now where many are happy with plane damage, dc etc and these goal posts no longer move that much.
So it is just a matter of getting what we have all learned and then deciding whether or not we can make anything and also if it is worth time being spent on it.
I know many do not even get spotted so this mod is unimportant for them.
Concerning the blinking lights, was there not a line somewhwere where we could cause glass to break earlier than it does now?.
Anyway, I am hanging back to Rubini finnishes his current project and seeing what he and Jungman have to suggest. Until then, I am actually going to play the game for a while even though I still cannot get rid of my suicidal urges.
I'm no computer programmer, but I just had an idea, which may be wildly impractical. Lets see.
What if: Before starting up SH3 you started mod that ran throughout your play, and "watched" your hull integrity state. As you accumulate damage, it would overwrite tga files for the sub interior (or even the outside skin as well) with "damaged" ones.
Hmm, the issue is, of course, how to get it to invisibly output a hull integrity value into an external program :hmm:
I have my doubts, but if anyone can figure that out - it would be of great help.
One thing I've been thinking about in regards is bringing SH3 commander into the equation. How about, for example, randomising the vulnerabilities of certain systems to some extent? That could result in some unexpected twists :hmm:
doesn't it write the hull integrity to a cfg file - else how would it know to start your play-session with the damage state of your previous one? Presumeably it does that either at the moment of saving, or at the instant the damage is inflicted.
Hmm, the issue is, of course, how to get it to invisibly output a hull integrity value into an external program :hmm:
I have my doubts, but if anyone can figure that out - it would be of great help.
One thing I've been thinking about in regards is bringing SH3 commander into the equation. How about, for example, randomising the vulnerabilities of certain systems to some extent? That could result in some unexpected twists :hmm:
HEMISENT
10-12-05, 02:11 PM
Gouldjg, one of the things that's bothered me is the ridiculously fast repair times. Everytime I take damage the compartment repair times are measured in mere minutes. What about damaged areas taking hours to repair. Hard to believe a diesel engine knocked off the mounts can be brought back online in 3-4 minutes.
Anyway just my two cents worth. Random mechanical breakdowns sure would be nice to experience also.
Glad your back.
ps. Now that there is a screaming crew mod "BRING BACK THE FLYING CREWMEN"
On the hull integrity thing, it writes to a file only if you exit the game. When hull integrity accumulates during the game, it's virtually impossible to find where that gets recorded. I would say that the proposal of changing graphics on the fly based on the hull integrity is so hard to implement that I seriously doubt that it will ever be done.
On the other question of randomizing system vulnerabilities, this definitely could be done, but would it be apparent in the game? In my experience it's very unusual to get significant system failures unless the boat is already in the last seconds before it gets destroyed.
gouldjg
10-12-05, 02:28 PM
I can prolong repairs to a certain degree but the minutes thing seems to be hardcoded or undiscovered as yet.
Read the past couple of fatigue threads concerning me and Kaa and you will get the idea that I will be making a instant penalty to anyone who gets sent to repair so player has to choose carefully how many people he devotes to damage control.
This penalty will drop their usefulnes but not negate their skill. When this is in action, floods will take longer to get under control and maybe, just maybe so will subsystem damage. I just hated the fact that repairs get done in seconds and skilled repair men fix a flood in 30 seconds flat. No not more they will.
You may be intersted to know that I discovered a way to send crewmen to bed for rest and that they will actually simulate sleeping.
I am just figuring out whats best for combat situations i.e. the approach, torp reloading, damage and recovery.
I did already prolong repair times to some extent - by giving compartments more HP and making them lose more through damage - but I'd like to know where the repair rate data is stored. It may not be hardcoded, but then again, maybe it is :hmm:
gouldjg
10-12-05, 02:57 PM
Well CCIP not only can we prolong as you have done so, but by reducing the efficiency of the crew in the repair department, we can prolong further and hopefully to a good gameplay effect.
I will hardly need to adjust the damage mod in RUB except the flooding figures cos as you know flooding is either instantly repaired in seconds on the current system or it floods too fast.
I want to restrict this mass varying flooding repair and force the player to think first before sending 8 men to repair a minor problem.
How will I do it?, Well it is done by reducing the crews overall effects in that single deprtment but yet they should have some effect i.e. qualifications rank etc. If I have control of what exactly my highest effectivness peak on the repair bar will be, then I can adjust flooding to fit closer to repair times.
That part is what I need to field test next after I have finnished with these crew tweek capabilites available with Kaas discovery.
I am confident this will be good way to look at battles.
TRUST ME :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Interesting. I didn't consider the 'fatigue on entering the compartment' thing. That's a nice idea.
gouldjg
10-12-05, 03:53 PM
Beery
Like Kaa, I am using most of your RUB 1x settings i.e. the 0.0001 is great but I may just adjust to account for the fact I can place when in recoup mode,
As we now have the capability to fatigue in higher time compression, I feel this is the way to go, for me it is anyway.
Kaa wants to set his similar to your mod, where battle fatigue takes weeks etc.
I want to use this system but also recover as I wanted to have penalty set for choosing man to enter repair compartment and energy loss when in battle stations.
I Accidently come accross this putting men to bed i.e. if I decide to put a man in the rest compartment, he will become useless untill he has had at least a few hours sleep. Clever gues by adding same line above compartment 6&7 that the rest have.
Now I need to set this so people cannot cheat the system by hoping men in and out of compartments. This is currently being tested and tweaked.
I have just had a encounter where a plane supried me out at sea.
He dropped two bombs before I could dive so I was damaged with flooding.
Two floods went under control in a few minutes or so whilst the other took at least 3 min to get under control. Damage did take longer to get back to normal as I now have it set that men work at low energy levels to simulate problems, minor injuries and just plain over working in abnormal circumstances.
I am thinking this can only get better as more tests and tweaks are done.
I am playing with a fatigue model that though does not have any dramatic effects every couple of game hours when in cruise mode, it will change performance levels over time i.e. every week.
It is then upto the player to decide if he wants to just run and run to the destination or stop and maybe rest a few crew so they are in peak condition should they be supried in the next few days or they are close to shipping lane or destination.
As well as this, I think we can get good variation when in battle station mode as well i.e. weapon departments are manned or submerged sailing.
I will post my findings and the mod on the Hollywood thread,
iambecomelife
10-12-05, 04:07 PM
I did already prolong repair times to some extent - by giving compartments more HP and making them lose more through damage - but I'd like to know where the repair rate data is stored. It may not be hardcoded, but then again, maybe it is :hmm:
I hope you find it; unfortunately this isn't my area of expertise. I agree that the repair crews' superhuman abilities make the game seem arcadish. As a whole we probably abort a lot fewer patrols due to damage than was the case historically.
Hellcat
10-12-05, 07:09 PM
As a whole we probably abort a lot fewer patrols due to damage than was the case historically.
One of my gripes as well, remmber how silent hunter (I) actually allowed the damaging of say one of your primary diesel's. Reducing speed and taking away one of the boat's most important characteristics. (and I have never had situations where I could not fire a tube, aotd had jammed outer doors if i recall correctly)
Can the damage model be further complicated by adding addtional subsystems to the players ship? Is there a list of current componets that can be damaged? Along that tangent what can be done to further enhance surface ship damage models? Right now it seems that I can throw 5 fish into a Queen Elizibeth BB and she is still other than reduced speed, fully operational and loaded for bear...
Let's not forget the visuals here gentlemen,
Another issue that came to my mind after seeing Das Boot's DC atacks again and compared it to SH3's ones;
Sure, the game simply doesn't have the animations or violent camera shakes to throw people around the sub like Das Boot but I think we can at least improve the current visual damage effects.
I mean, all you get is the camera shakes (wich look not very convincing when the crew themselves remain statues), frequent pipe burst and very very rarely electric sparks and blackouts.
The last two effects have my attention, they add a lot to the game but you rarely see them since that would require massive amounts of sustained damage...and we all now that the line between much damage and the cursed black screen o' death is >way< to thin.
To compensate for the lack of visual damage effects I propose to drastically lower the amount of sustained damage needed for the electric sparks and the blackout effects to apear. (and perhaps make the blackout remain longer, a few minutes for example) That way we can have a much more violent DC atacks like Das Boot. And we can finally start to respect DC's, a.t.m I'm not scared or anything, perhaps slightly worried but miles away from breaking a sweat..
Good/bad idea?
On a bit of a tangent here, but I'm not at all sure that the Das Boot scenes of the crew being thrown around by depth charges were at all realistic. As I understand it, when a depth charge goes off in proximity to a submerged U-boat it has a compressive effect on the boat, but the boat wouldn't move all that much spatially. It's not at all like air turbulence, where a person could easily find himself thrown to the ceiling by a low pressure air pocket. As I understand the physics of it, in a U-boat the water around you is not compressible like air is - water carries a pressure wave but it's not distorted much by it. This is why U-boats are so affected by sudden variations in pressure whereas aircraft, which are structurally much weaker, tend to be able to withstand pressure variations better.
Although the boat is being seriously compressed by the effect of the depth charges, I don't see how such a force could throw people around very much because the boat cannot easily be moved through the water by the pressure.
Although the boat is being seriously compressed by the effect of the depth charges, I don't see how such a force could throw people around very much because the boat cannot easily be moved through the water by the pressure.
I posted an account of a real U-boat officer a couple of months ago which related exactly that (in a comment on Das Boot, no less). As it said, a depth charge attack felt like
A blow with a giant hammer against an immovable object. Gauges would break, leaks would appear, but the boat would not move an inch.
Ideally, the DC effects should be revised a bit to feel that way. I do agree that more flashing lights would be a nice indicator.
I earlier suggested reducing the DC "impulse" value (the amount of shaking/'rolling' effect caused by DC explosions, but pretty much everyone here shrugged it off (and I gave up on that too, heh) :hmm:
Kpt. Lehmann
10-14-05, 03:58 PM
CCIP I like your idea... must have missed it earlier. Even in the movies externally I don't recall subs swaying back and forth.
They appear to sort of "wriggle" to near misses... which I think is much closer to the truth. One can think of a concussive blast wave as an "enveloping" sphere that jars its way through an object. (the u-boat) It would "flex" segmented objects.. (the u-boat)... not grab something by the conning tower and rock it back and forth.
Do it to it! I'll use it! :up: I hope you build it.
Marhkimov
10-14-05, 04:06 PM
Ok, so u-boats rocking back and forth in a DC attack is not realistic. We've established that...
But hell, who's to say it isn't fun?? :yep:
I must admit I don't find it fun. I generally find overblown special effects kind of insulting (unless they're in a sci-fi or fantasy setting). It's kinda like when a bullet weighing an ounce or two blows a bad guy back 10 feet like he's been hit by a train. The first thing I think when I see such things is "Don't these idiots think I went to school?"
When a drama or history-based game or movie comes along and shoves a situation down my throat that I know is outright fantasy based on what we learn in 6th grade school physics, I don't say "Ooh, wow, cool!". Instead I'm wondering why these folks get paid five figure salaries to treat me like an ignorant child.
I suspect the reason they have those effects is down the difficulty of modelling the true effects in such a way that a player may distinguish between a close near-miss, and a moderately close near-miss. Volume won't do - as levels are fairly arbitrary - so movement probably made sense?
I must admit I don't find it fun. I generally find overblown special effects kind of insulting (unless they're in a sci-fi or fantasy setting). It's kinda like when a bullet weighing an ounce or two blows a bad guy back 10 feet like he's been hit by a train. The first thing I think when I see such things is "Don't these idiots think I went to school?"
When a drama or history-based game or movie comes along and shoves a situation down my throat that I know is outright fantasy based on what we learn in 6th grade school physics, I don't say "Ooh, wow, cool!". Instead I'm wondering why these folks get paid five figure salaries to treat me like an ignorant child.
Ok so a rocking U-boat is not that realistic, but what is your take on the special effects, the rare blackouts and sparks I mentioned?
as said before by many, in some cases realism isnt always the best fun. As for example, when a DC hits close to the hull, the noice bang would blow most men's hearings away, and if this was simmed, we should have an completely silenced simulation for a few hours along with some annoying beeping to simulate the hearing damage.. now this has been tried in vietcong game, and wasnt to well successful..
Ok so a rocking U-boat is not that realistic, but what is your take on the special effects, the rare blackouts and sparks I mentioned?
Bring 'em on. The more the merrier.
as said before by many, in some cases realism isnt always the best fun. As for example, when a DC hits close to the hull, the noice bang would blow most men's hearings away, and if this was simmed, we should have an completely silenced simulation for a few hours along with some annoying beeping to simulate the hearing damage.. now this has been tried in vietcong game, and wasnt to well successful..
I liked the feature in Rainbow Six, where if you got too close to a flash-bang, you'd hear a big bang, followed by a high pitched whistling until your hearing returned. It was very effective and disorientating.
Hartmann
10-15-05, 03:44 PM
in silent hunter 1 or AOD was well modelled. only a little shake with the noise of a moved mechanisms or pieces.
also for the crew effect i like the "call of duty" game
when a tank shell or bomb exploded too near, show a blurred slow motion image with a beep until the image return to normal state.
Well CCIP not only can we prolong as you have done so, but by reducing the efficiency of the crew in the repair department, we can prolong further and hopefully to a good gameplay effect. [...] Well it is done by reducing the crews overall effects in that single deprtment
Can you tweak crew's efficiency in a specific compartment? How? I've found that the QualEffect parameter does affect that but it depends on crewman's rank rather that compartment type.
Like Kaa, I am using most of your RUB 1x settings [...] Kaa wants to set his similar to your mod, where battle fatigue takes weeks etc.
Actually I've found the crew getting tired too fast for my taste even with Beery's 1x TC model, so I'm experimenting with a whole new set of figures. But I must say that it's Beery's 1x TC model that inspired me to look for what happenned to be the 3DRender parameter, becuase I liked the idea but - like most of us - don't have the time or willpower to play without timecomression.
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