Class VII, IX, I, "U-A," and torpedoes

[stljeffbb1]

Hello everyone....I'm about 200 pages into Hitler's U-Boat War The Hunters, 1939-1942 by Clay Blair and there some things that become rather obvious IMHO....

1) German torpedos had massive problems early on, and this is not reflected in SH3....I know this because the only portion of the game I have played is 1939-1941, and I don't think I've seen but once a torpedo that explodes early; conversely, nearly every time I take a shot and it is true, it will hit the ship...

2) The Type VII (with no letter after the "VII") did receive a fair amount of work, even though it was inadequate for Atlantic combat (engine problems in particular)

3) The Type I boats (U-25 and U-26 if I remember correctly) also received quite a bit of combat (until they were sunk in 1940)

4) The type IX (again, with no letter) also was involved in a lot of combat

5) The "U-A" crusier (originally being built for Turkey but taken over by the Germans) also did some combat

6) Not to mention the "ducks" Type II boats also did a lot of work due to the fact there were not enough U-Boats to do the job.

....so, in my humble opinion, a few things need to be done to help the realism along....

- I've never seen "engine trouble" during a voyage (or any other issues for that matter)....it would be good to start including things like engine trouble into even the routine portions of the voyage. I could imagine that damage could be "made" to happen by altering the code to "appear" without being shelled

- The torpedos are way too reliable in the game...they must be made to not work nearly as much, especially by date (if we limit ourselves to the exact historical dates of the issues). Also, the depth setting should be inaccurate at times....ex. set the depth to 4 and 1/2 feet, but the actual running depth in the game should reflect when the torpedos ran too deep.

- It would be great to see the type VII, IX (I don't remember in the game if the original type IX is represented...sorry), I, and "U-A" in that order of importance

I apologize if these things have been covered in previous threads.....I assume many of these issues have been mentioned....I also realize that this is just a game, but if we are going to go for realism (those of us who want this), I feel we should do the best we can.....

Lastly, I bring this up in this forum because most of these things are mod issues.

Just my zwei pfennig

-Jeff

[rulle34]

There was this engine failures in SH 2, and other problems as well. Is it this kind of failers you wish should be simulated in game?

About torpedos, have you tried TII's early in war combined with checked for dud torpedos in options? My experience is that they fail more often than they works :yep:

For realism, in that case there should be a progress of mailfunction. There where more failours in early war than in late.
And I think thats the case with the TII's but Im not sure.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Great idea regarding malfunctions!

I just hope that they aren't career enders when they are modded in.

[Hunterbear]

Hi stljeffbb1,

I can only comment on my experience, but I'm running at 73% realism for the moment and I believe there is the option for having dud torpedos and I don't use the stabilization on the scope. I'm also using RUb and visibility mod by Jungman and Ortega along with the usual stuff, HT mod, Improved Convoys, etc..

I would say I get maybe 1 in 4 torpedos exploding prematurely or not detonating at all when they hit the target. That is why they recommend a spread of torpedos instead of trying for a one hit kill (much more realistic and less tonnage to bag per patrol). I've also seen them bounce off the side of the ship. It is especially bad in heavy seas where I do have to run them a little deeper than normal to get the torpedo to reach 1500-2500+m to have a chance to hit the target. And if you play by using contact detonators only early on I still get a few duds. I've also been chased by my own accoustical torps later on in the war and have to dive deep to avoid becoming a kill myself.

As far as engine damage, it would be nice if the CE did report problems with the engines that weren't repairable at sea and you have to limp home and pray you make it without them giving out altogether. The only thing I see happen is that if I get DC'd real bad, I won't get full speed out of my engines but they seem to repair themselves over time and I regain full power from them again for the trip home. But that performance could also be influenced by the fatigue factor in RUb.

So I don't have the problems you do and I don't know if some other mods are responsible for me getting the dud rate I get but I feel I get a rather realistic torpedo performance as noted to history. I don't get one hit kills all the time and certain ships as we all know are bastards to sink with just one torpedo. I know some mods, maybe RUb, increased the strength of ships to make it harder to sink them so that adds to having me use more than one torpedo to sink anything bigger than the small coastal crafts.

I hope you get other feedback that might help you find the realism you're looking for, but this is just my own experience and currently I'm in a Type IXD in the middle of '44 but I did hang on to the Type II and did about a dozen patrols before switching to a Type VIIC.

Good luck

:up:

[stljeffbb1]

Hi Hunterbear....

I run at 100% realism using RUb 1.43 and a few other mods....I don't know...I have not had any major torpedo issues.....perhaps it is because I try to get within 600m of my target; I rarely go for the long shot. With only 10 to 20 seconds running time, perhaps its hard to have a quick detonation...I do recall in Hitler's U-Boat War that some early detonations happened very quickly, at least causing reverberations to the launching U-Boat! :nope:

-Jeff

[rulle34]

I do recall in Hitler's U-Boat War that some early detonations happened very quickly, at least causing reverberations to the launching U-Boat! :nope:

-Jeff

Maybe that's the reason for a safety for not detonate under 300m. That's the small propellers job in the front!

[stljeffbb1]

Hi rulle34

About torpedos, have you tried TII's early in war combined with checked for dud torpedos in options? My experience is that they fail more often than they works

What distance do you generallly shoot your torpedos at? I wonder if my mentioned strategy is why I have not seen too many duds.....

I've noticed the 300m thing too. There have been a couple of occasions when "dancing" with a lone merchant that I have tried to fire when less than 300m away.....I don't think its ever worked!

-Jeff

[LukeFF]

Otto Kretschmer, in one of the interviews provided with CAoD, stated that with better torpedoes the U-boats would have sunk double the tonnage they actually sunk. What I think we're seeing in SH3 is those better torpedoes Otto was talking about. :hmm:

[stljeffbb1]

Hi LukeFF

Otto Kretschmer, in one of the interviews provided with CAoD, stated that with better torpedoes the U-boats would have sunk double the tonnage they actually sunk. What I think we're seeing in SH3 is those better torpedoes Otto was talking about.

Yes, I suppose its a matter of how far we want to go with the realism.....it also matters how historical we want to be...I actually prefer some variability with history, but how to model that is a difficult question, too! :damn:

-Jeff

[Hunterbear]

Hi stljeffbb1,

Firing at 600m or less, I would say you'd hardly ever get duds then. I only attack that close if I make it into a convoy. I fire most torps a min. of 1500m to give me some evasive action time to evade the DDs that come sniffing around. The most minimal distance I've had torps work was 250m but I only do that to attacking DDs (usual from the stern).

I think if you try changing your attacks to 1500m-2000m you'll see more premature detonations (esp. with T1's, T2's will miss rather than pre-detonate) and more wayward torpedos that miss the mark. I've had plenty of frustrating experiences of torpedos detonating half way to target or just seconds from impact. The funny thing is that the intended target doesn't zigzag afterwards and the DDs rarely come to check it out unless they were close by. The only other odd thing I notice sometimes is that my WO will tell me Torpedo Missed when I clearly saw it hit the target and the target slows.

So if you want your torpedos to act like you've read, I think you need to fire them farther out and see what happens. But I warn you, if you can't handle frustration well, only keep soft objects in reach so you don't hurt yourself or others, hehe.

:up:

Happy Hunting!

:arrgh!:

PS- Cute hat! LOL

[The Avon Lady]

LOL @ the ban-the-bonnet sig. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[OneTinSoldier]

The only other odd thing I notice sometimes is that my WO will tell me Torpedo Missed when I clearly saw it hit the target and the target slows.


Howdy Hunterbear,

The reason that you get that report is becase of the way the game works when it comes to reporting a hit when using the Magnetic Impact pistol setting. Let's say you set your torp for Magnetic and for a little bit under the draft of the ship, 0.5-.06m under is usually a sure hit, in calm seas anyway. What happens is the torp goes off without actually making contact with the hull of your target ship. That's when you get the 'Torpedo missed' message.

In my eyes, you should get a 'Torpedo Impact!' and 'Yeah!' response because the torp achieved it's intended goal, but because of the way the game engine works it reports a miss since the torp never actually made contact with the hull.

Just thought I'd let you know why you get that message.

Cheerio,

OneTinSoldier

[The Avon Lady]

The reason that you get that report is becase of the way the game works when it comes to reporting a hit when using the Magnetic Impact pistol setting. Let's say you set your torp for Magnetic and for a little bit under the draft of the ship, 0.5-.06m under is usually a sure hit, in calm seas anyway. What happens is the torp goes off without actually making contact with the hull of your target ship. That's when you get the 'Torpedo missed' message.

In my eyes, you should get a 'Torpedo Impact!' and 'Yeah!' response because the torp achieved it's intended goal, but because of the way the game engine works it reports a miss since the torp never actually made contact with the hull.

Just thought I'd let you know why you get that message.
The problem is the game is not consistant. Most of the time I get an impact message for my magnetic pistols going off under keel. It's just about 10-20% of the time that they are announced as missed.

Now why is that? :hmm:

[OneTinSoldier]

Hi Avon Lady,

Hmmm, something seems to have changed a little from what I was used to. I was used to SHIII patch v1.2 and have been playing a career in v1.4 for a while now. Quite a while actually, it's September 1940. But I hadn't shot but maybe one or two magnetics before now because of weather and a couple of other factors. And those one two that I had fired missed. But just got done playing where I have had a totally calm sea state for a long time and I was hunting a convoy. I fired a number of magnetics and I see what you're talking about. I got 'Torpedo Impact!' messages follwed with a 'Yeah!'. In fact, I don't think that any of my hits were reported as a 'Topedo Missed'. So if that's a change from patch v1.2 that is great. :) In patch v1.2 I always got 'Torpedo Missed'.

Cheers,

OTS

[Dowly]

I get the "Torpedo missed" message too sometimes, can it be because the torpedo is set to run too deep to actually have any effect on the target ship. Or maybe the torpedo didnt blew under the ship, but just a little to the side and caused just a minor damage to the targeted ship, so the game says it was a miss.

Just my thoughs... :roll:

[Ducimus]

Duds occur in this game, more often then i like. But i think it occurs most in TYpe II torpedo's with the magnetic exploder.


Early in the war, i always get rid of those Type II's and replace them with TYpe 1 steamers and used the impact pistol. Doing that the only failure id get is a glancing shot richoting off the target when i didnt have good angle.

Conversley ive aldo used a magnetic exploder shooting up the fantail so to speak and saw a magnetic pistol torpedo scrape the targets hull from stern to bow (like in the movie u571) and have it not explode, MUCH to my surpise.

EDIT: oh ya and ive had premature detonations as well.

[rulle34]

The reason that you get that report is becase of the way the game works when it comes to reporting a hit when using the Magnetic Impact pistol setting. Let's say you set your torp for Magnetic and for a little bit under the draft of the ship, 0.5-.06m under is usually a sure hit, in calm seas anyway. What happens is the torp goes off without actually making contact with the hull of your target ship. That's when you get the 'Torpedo missed' message.

In my eyes, you should get a 'Torpedo Impact!' and 'Yeah!' response because the torp achieved it's intended goal, but because of the way the game engine works it reports a miss since the torp never actually made contact with the hull.

Just thought I'd let you know why you get that message.
The problem is the game is not consistant. Most of the time I get an impact message for my magnetic pistols going off under keel. It's just about 10-20% of the time that they are announced as missed.

Now why is that? :hmm:

I think it's about how far from keel the detonation goes.
I have noticed that if the torpedo detonates quite close to the kiel or the hull it's reported as a hit. When detonating with larger distance from keel it's reported as a miss. I don't have any sure values, this is a estimate when "looking" at torps hitting when I made some tests with torpedos.

Maybe some modder with hexediting skills knows if it's possible to mod so all detonates under kiel are reported as a hit?

[Hunterbear]

Hi OneTinSoldier,

Thanks for the heads up info on the Torpedo Missed call.

Now I will stop pranking my WO when he goes topside to answer the call of nature and he has his trousers bunching up in his boots and I order an immediate Crash Dive! Hehe!! (Now only if we could see that happen through the scope!)

:up: