Frigate Users, Sonalysts, sonar experts.....please read

[Sea Demon]

I'm interested in the differences of the modes of operation in the active hull sonar? What is the difference and uses of the Single beam, omni, and omni-rotational? What are the advantages of each? Where would you use them?

I have been experimenting but need more info.

Sea Demon

[DivingWind]

Have you read the DW manual? There is atleast part of info you want to find.

[OKO]

With the MOD 2.01, the active world is completly changed from stock DW.
For subs and fregate.

Lets talk about the fregate active because you ask for :
Before 2.01, single beam use was very marginal.
Just because omni rotational was VERY effective, even under the layer.
So you detected (ping return) any submerged contact at 10 miles, and were able to see it on the sonar screen at 9 miles ...
no need to use single beam in this case.

But now, this is completly changed, single beam become the main tool to find submerged contact already detected by omni rotational.

Here is the process : first, you use omni (rotational, never directional, only used if rotational is destroyed, that's all)
you hear a ping return at 16kyrds, but you see nothing.
So switch to single beam, and search again the ping return on every bearings, 20° per 20°.
Once you get it, the same ping return at 16kyrds (or maybe less now if you closed the target), it will be MUCH more easy to find it :
instead of 240° to search for a contact, you have just 20° now.
So even if you don't see the contact, you have the distance (ping return gave you) and only 20° to search at.
This way you will find it in some seconds, instead to use lots of time to find it on rotational on 240°.

As I told you, the OMNI (...directional) is only used if your rotational is destroyed, because it is much less efficient.

Now, the active sonar of the fregate (and subs...) need real train to use it corretly, with efficiency, for the good of DW.

[Sea Demon]

Have you read the DW manual? There is atleast part of info you want to find.

Hi DivingWind. Thansk for responding. Yes, I have read the DW manual. The manual only gives the mechanics of the sonar. I'm more interested in the pros and cons of using each. Why would I choose OMNI over OMNI-rotational? Wehn would I switch to single beam? Does single-beam provide greater clarity? Are there advantages to each in different ocean conditions?

Things like that.

Sea Demon

[Sea Demon]

With the MOD 2.01, the active world is completly changed from stock DW.
For subs and fregate.


Thanks OKO. I'm very interested in the MOD 2.01. Especially if it gives more realistic ocean environment. From your reply, it looks like I'll need to do more experimentation. :up:

Sea Demon

[PeriscopeDepth]

Have you read the DW manual? There is atleast part of info you want to find.

Hi DivingWind. Thansk for responding. Yes, I have read the DW manual. The manual only gives the mechanics of the sonar. I'm more interested in the pros and cons of using each. Why would I choose OMNI over OMNI-rotational? Wehn would I switch to single beam? Does single-beam provide greater clarity? Are there advantages to each in different ocean conditions?

Things like that.

Sea Demon

No reason to use omni. You do omni rotational, hear a return, then switch to single beam and narrow it down, like OKO said.

[Sea Demon]

Have you read the DW manual? There is atleast part of info you want to find.

Hi DivingWind. Thansk for responding. Yes, I have read the DW manual. The manual only gives the mechanics of the sonar. I'm more interested in the pros and cons of using each. Why would I choose OMNI over OMNI-rotational? Wehn would I switch to single beam? Does single-beam provide greater clarity? Are there advantages to each in different ocean conditions?

Things like that.

Sea Demon

No reason to use omni. You do omni rotational, hear a return, then switch to single beam and narrow it down, like OKO said.

So is OMNI to OMNI-ROTATIONAL in hull sonar, just as DIFAR is to VLAD in sonobuoys? In other words, they function the same but OMNI is not as effective, shorter range, etc?

Sea Demon

[OKO]

I think OMNI directional (and not rotational) is used only if rotational is damaged (no moving antenna needed on directional)
It is much less efficient than rotational.
You can't compare this to buoys as it is totally different things.
But if you are hit by a torp, you could lost more easily the sonar antenna, and then lost the omni rotational (an so the single beam). In this case, you could be happy to still have the omni directional, even if it have less performance.


I didn't tested the omni directional so much, so I could have miss something ...
This thread make me think I should test better this feature ...

[SeaQueen]

I'm interested in the differences of the modes of operation in the active hull sonar? What is the difference and uses of the Single beam, omni, and omni-rotational? What are the advantages of each? Where would you use them?

I have been experimenting but need more info.

Sea Demon

I'm not sure what the different modes are for in DW. In real life, there are different sonar modes to make the most of different environments. There are also lots of other different things one can play with to "fine tune" performance. The different modes can result in radically different detection performance against different targets.

[Sea Demon]

I'm not sure what the different modes are for in DW. In real life, there are different sonar modes to make the most of different environments. There are also lots of other different things one can play with to "fine tune" performance. The different modes can result in radically different detection performance against different targets.

This really is the heart of the matter. What ocean environments would necessitate use of one active sonar mode over the others? I'm wondering if it would depend on depth, thermal layer presence, gradients, and sea state. For example, I can see how OMNI-ROTATIONAL would probably make more sense to use in a higher sea state because you focus more energy per beam, rather than the energy scattering effect by using OMNI. Using single beam active would be best for updating contacts quickly and localizing target range and bearing. But in shallow waters, is there an advantage to using only OMNI? Maybe a reduction of bottom bounce effect?

I'm hoping the game designers (Sonalysts) or any sonar expert can clear this up. Maybe a physics expert? This info would really help clear up a gap in understanding how to master this platform.

Sea Demon

[OKO]

This really is the heart of the matter. What ocean environments would necessitate use of one active sonar mode over the others? I'm wondering if it would depend on depth, thermal layer presence, gradients, and sea state. For example, I can see how OMNI-ROTATIONAL would probably make more sense to use in a higher sea state because you focus more energy per beam, rather than the energy scattering effect by using OMNI. Using single beam active would be best for updating contacts quickly and localizing target range and bearing. But in shallow waters, is there an advantage to using only OMNI? Maybe a reduction of bottom bounce effect?

well, we already answered this
single beam is to find, not to update in any case (remember 20° is very narrow)
Use OMNI rotational to hear the ping return, single beam to find the contact, use ATT on contact and switch back to rotational.
And the target is trapped.

only use directional (OMNI alone) if rotational is damaged.


I'm hoping the game designers (Sonalysts) or any sonar expert can clear this up. Maybe a physics expert? This info would really help clear up a gap in understanding how to master this platform.
Sea Demon

What do you want to know exactly ? how a sonar work ?
You think you need a sonar expert to describe all the physical phenomenon to understand how to use it ?

You do a mistake, for military business, the goal is to find the key procedures with existing options, not to lost time to try to understand how work each transistor of each materials.

If you proceed as described above, and TRAIN this way, you will be much more deadly against subs than any scientist were ever with the same material.

[Sea Demon]

well, we already answered this
single beam is to find, not to update in any case (remember 20° is very narrow)
Use OMNI rotational to hear the ping return, single beam to find the contact, use ATT on contact and switch back to rotational.
And the target is trapped.

only use directional (OMNI alone) if rotational is damaged.

What do you want to know exactly ? how a sonar work ?
You think you need a sonar expert to describe all the physical phenomenon to understand how to use it ?

You do a mistake, for military business, the goal is to find the key procedures with existing options, not to lost time to try to understand how work each transistor of each materials.

If you proceed as described above, and TRAIN this way, you will be much more deadly against subs than any scientist were ever with the same material, dude.

Lot of great tips here, OKO. :up: Thanks for your answers. I appreciate the wonderful job you have done to explain good sonar tactics and procedures for the FFG. Now, the only remaining piece of info I'm looking for is the ocean environment and it's effect on each mode of active sonar. Also I'm trying to see if there is any utility at all in using OMNI mode (not rotational). I'm thinking it may be useful in littoral waters.....maybe. I'm just not ready to believe it is totally useless.

I know the principles of sonar, and no, I'm not trying to be a scientist about it. But I think my questions would help anybody trying to maximize the effectiveness of their FFG sensors. Learning how your sensors work in their battle environment is not a mistake. Just because I know how to use a submarine broadband and narrowband sonar, doesn't mean I'm going to be effective with it when dealing with a convergance zone.

Maybe all three active modes on the FFG work exactly the same in all environments. Is there any truth in that?

Sea Demon

[OKO]

Here is a "simple" mission where you could test your skill with a fregate =>

http://okof4.free.fr/missions/DW/MP4_BREST_Blocus_v1.31.mu

I think nothing is better than a live test ;)

[SeaQueen]

I'm not sure what the different modes are for in DW. In real life, there are different sonar modes to make the most of different environments. There are also lots of other different things one can play with to "fine tune" performance. The different modes can result in radically different detection performance against different targets.

This really is the heart of the matter. What ocean environments would necessitate use of one active sonar mode over the others? I'm wondering if it would depend on depth, thermal layer presence, gradients, and sea state. For example, I can see how OMNI-ROTATIONAL would probably make more sense to use in a higher sea state because you focus more energy per beam, rather than the energy scattering effect by using OMNI. Using single beam active would be best for updating contacts quickly and localizing target range and bearing. But in shallow waters, is there an advantage to using only OMNI? Maybe a reduction of bottom bounce effect?

I'm hoping the game designers (Sonalysts) or any sonar expert can clear this up. Maybe a physics expert? This info would really help clear up a gap in understanding how to master this platform.

Sea Demon

As a physicist who studies sonar, I wish I could tell you. I haven't quite figured this one out either. I've wondered about it too, though.

About all I can say is that the different modes in DW bare some resemblence to some stuff I've played with in some computer models, but the DW modes are very vague, there's more to the stuff I've played with, which leads me to to believe that going into further detail with them might venture into the realm of the classified. I'm not really sure, though. Getting too specific with technical information in military matters is usually classified.

The best thing I can think to do is experiment!

[XabbaRus]

Huh?

There is omni-rotational and plain old omni.

Then there is single beam.

And I beg to differ, I have found in stock DW 1.01 that single beam has been my main tool for finding subs.


Use omni for general location and then single beam to find the sub.

Omni-rotational is a waste of time i find.

Any in real life omni-rotational is single beam sonar just moving round the 240 degree aperture very quickly.

You can do it your self using single beam and then moving the beam after each ping.

The way omni-rotational is portrayed by SCS in DW was for ease of use.

[PeriscopeDepth]

You should use omni rotational for finding subs Xab, I believe it has better range. Then narrow it down with single beam.

[XabbaRus]

But considering single beam sends all the energy down a 20 degree cone but omni-rotational does the same thing but rotates the beam around the whole area that the sonar covers so why there would be a difference I don't know.

[OKO]

its mainly a time difference to find the contact comparing 240° and 20°
say 12 times once you find again the ping return.
less than 1 mn of work with single beam (pinging 4 to 6 beams usually), when on 240° it is near impossible to plot the contact ... or on much more time