Hitpoints of cruisers to weak?

[Commander1980]

Does anyone know, which damage-zones the light cruiser use? There are no special hitpoints defined for them in the zones.cfg

I think they are to weak: Two Type 34 DDs managed to sink a Fiji in less than three minutes and both Type34s survived (all three on competent).

Another example: I equipped the Fiji with a special "Heavy Cruiser Loadout" with four of the Hippers 8Inch. It took three of them to sink the Hipper, two were sunk in about four minutes and the last was heavy damaged. Hipper was even on competent, the Fijis veterans.

:-?

[Hunterbear]

Hi commander1980,

Did you look in the data/Sea/...specific ship folder..../ ....specific ship.zon file there? There are armor levels there. Is that what you are looking for? ....ie. data/Sea/NCL_Dido/NCL_Dido.zon

I just wanted to add, that along to fixing that problem, could they somehow be given some of the DDs AI capabilities and not to just cruise on autopilot when they are in a convoy that is under attack.

I attacked a large convoy N of Ireland, heading presumably to Liverpool, that was composed mostly of C2s and C3s, avg. speed 5kts. Sailing in the 3rd or 4th column was a Dido Light Cruiser. I plotted an attack on the C3 on the port side of the cruiser. First torpedo prematurely exploded 400 some meters away from me. No response or evasive maneuvering from the cruiser and no increase in its speed. Second torpedo found its mark and crippled the C3, which later sank due to flooding and to the high seas. I attracted the attention of the convoy screen of destroyers who unsuccessfully tried to find and DC me. The Dido just cruised along at 5kts.

My second attack was on a C2 to the stern of the Dido to try to draw away the destroyers. It succeeded and allowed me to catch up to that lazy cruiser. I had a perfect beam shot on him, but like my first attack the first torpedo prematurely detonated not more than 50m away from the cruiser. Still no evasive maneuvers or increase in speed. I reset the torp depth to run a bit deeper due to the heavy seas and swells. Second torpedo hit the cruiser midships and cut her speed to 2kts.

Thanks to Beerys RUb mod my crew was exhausted from previous recent engagements and it took them forever to reload #4 tube. I had to shadow the crippled cruiser for half an hour while evading the DDs who put up the only fight, tag teaming me.

I would have expected the cruiser to have sped off and not just sit there like a lame duck when ships were sinking around him and a torpedo prematurely went off no more that 50m from them. What use are they to the convoy if they just sit there begging to be sunk for easy tonnage? In the end, I fired the last of 2 torps and sent the Dido to the briny deep. Barely escaped unscathed by the DDs that time since we were now in shallower waters in that bottleneck area between Ireland and England.

I love the great work and variety all the great modders bring to SH3. It just seems all the cruisers in the game are handicapped, at least while sailing in merchant convoys from what I've encountered so far. Do they only have enough AI skill to attack enemy surface shipping and capital ships? Is it just something we have to live with or can they be given enough sense to get out of harms way when the convoy comes under attack. I would expect them to do some kind of offensive/defensive posturing even if they're not specifically there to hunt our uboats.

Just my 2 cents of pet peeves on the cruisers.

Happy hunting to all and keep up the great work modders!
:arrgh!: :up:

[Commander1980]

thanks, i will look there and good idea with that cruiser-AI!

I will give a try with adding some of the escorts search-devices into the *.sns file of the cruisers. The Cruisers have only visual and radar, so far, but have the nodes for other devices

[Sensor 1]
NodeName=O01
LinkName=AI_Visual
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 2]
NodeName=H01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 3]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 4]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400901

[Sensor 5]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type286
StartDate=19400901
EndDate=19420901

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type273
StartDate=19420901
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 7]
NodeName=D01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 8]
NodeName=C01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Cdre Gibs]

LC's did in fact carry Depth Charges. The LC was to all intents and purposes a Very Heavy DD.

5inch Guns (or bigger depending on type)

Torpedo's (21inch, same number of tubes as most fleet DD's)

KGuns (usually at least 2 perside towards the stern)

and the usually beavy of AA guns.

Armour only slightly better than a fleet DD as well.

This was mainly for its own protection rather that to act soley as a Sub hunter, but they were at times the Flotilla leader in a Hunter Killer Group know as Maruder Groups, so it makes perfect sense.

These are the sort of Task Forces we should see more of than any other but by definition they would be Maruder Groups, not Task Force.

IIRC there were several Maruder groups in action and by their very nature were rather a free roaming unit.

Heavy Cruisers are a different beasty altogether !

[Commander1980]

adding depth charges (Kguns) and using them is no problem.

It is not that easy. I added KGuns, Asdic and Hydrophones to the Dido, but she didn't attack me. She has to be specified as a ship with escort-duties. But when you do this in the ship's cfg file, the Dido would also be picked for several random groups by the RDN-layer (and no more as cruiser in task forces).... :(

She was able to spot me with the hydrophones and asdic (*ping ping*) and a destroyer some miles away "received" from her my position (i think) and attacked me. But when still defined as a cruiser, she would never attack me :(

[Pablo]

Hi!

AFAIK most of the allied light cruisers in WWII carried torpedoes but not depth charges; the stern area on many of these ships was reserved for carrying scouting aircraft. See the following articles from u-boat.net - none of them are listed as carrying depth charges:
UK light cruiser classes
Arethusa-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=69)
Belfast-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=71)
Bellona-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=74)
Cairo-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=407)
Caledon-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=62)
Cavendish-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=64)
Ceres-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=406)
D-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=63)
Dido-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=72)
E-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=66)
Fiji-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=73)
Gloucester-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=405)
Leander-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=67)
Minotaur-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=186)

US light cruiser classes
Brooklyn-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=121)
Cleveland-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=124)
Omaha-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=116)
St. Louis-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=269)
Pablo

[Cdre Gibs]

Modifications were done to some LC during the course of the war. I remember reading a damn good series of Naval Books about RN & RAN ships, in those books it was made mention a few times about refits an such to cruiser's. 1 such refit to a light cruiser included KGuns.

Sadly I now no longer have the books anymore but I do recall the bits about refits to some ships because at the time I thought "DAMN" to myself :o

Also there were a lot of unoffical refits and trials of gear that never made it into main stream so as I said, it did happen. How often and to what particular ships I have no idea. I have been looking to find out again but so far no joy :(

As to USN, couldn't tell u didly and quite frankly dont care much about it either.

[Commander1980]

adding depth charges (Kguns) and using them is no problem.

It is not that easy. I added KGuns, Asdic and Hydrophones to the Dido, but she didn't attack me. She has to be specified as a ship with escort-duties. But when you do this in the ship's cfg file, the Dido would also be picked for several random groups by the RDN-layer (and no more as cruiser in task forces).... :(

She was able to spot me with the hydrophones and asdic (*ping ping*) and a destroyer some miles away "received" from her my position (i think) and attacked me. But when still defined as a cruiser, she would never attack me :(

[Rubini]

She was able to spot me with the hydrophones and asdic (*ping ping*) and a destroyer some miles away "received" from her my position (i think) and attacked me. But when still defined as a cruiser, she would never attack me

Commander1980,

This is far better than the stock one. :up:
Can you post the mods that you make for the light cruiser spot the uboats?

Rubini.

[Pablo]

Modifications were done to some LC during the course of the war. I remember reading a damn good series of Naval Books about RN & RAN ships, in those books it was made mention a few times about refits an such to cruiser's. 1 such refit to a light cruiser included KGuns.
Hi!

I found information on HMAS Adelaide here (http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/adelaide1.htm). Is this the ship to which you were referring?

Adelaide was initially fitted with two depth charge racks, and with "depth charge throwers" (K-guns) added in 1943. She was a "Town"-class cruiser of the type launched during WWI, not the "Town"-class than the type modeled by Sergbuto's mod (launched in 1936).

This ship apparently never engaged a U-boat, which might account for it not appearing on U-boat.net. It seems to have spent its entire career in the Pacific and Indian Oceans, so I suppose one might run across it if you were in a Monsun U-boat.

Pablo

[iambecomelife]

Hi!

AFAIK most of the allied light cruisers in WWII carried torpedoes but not depth charges; the stern area on many of these ships was reserved for carrying scouting aircraft. See the following articles from u-boat.net - none of them are listed as carrying depth charges:
UK light cruiser classes
Arethusa-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=69)
Belfast-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=71)
Bellona-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=74)
Cairo-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=407)
Caledon-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=62)
Cavendish-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=64)
Ceres-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=406)
D-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=63)
Dido-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=72)
E-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=66)
Fiji-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=73)
Gloucester-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=405)
Leander-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=67)
Minotaur-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=186)

US light cruiser classes
Brooklyn-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=121)
Cleveland-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=124)
Omaha-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=116)
St. Louis-class here (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=269)
Pablo

I know that the Atlanta Class had them, as well as several British auxiliary cruisers. However, I read that ASW weapons weren't really considered practical for vessels this large, and the Atlantas probably had them removed to make room for more light AA guns.

[Cdre Gibs]

It may very well be Pablo, but I'm not 100% sure since thats a post WW1 cruiser. I know Australia was way behind the 8 ball at the begining of WWII as far as capital ships.

As iambecomelife also made note a few USN ships were also at 1 stage fitted out the same. Whilst it was as i said not main stream - it did happen. As to its effectiveness, well thats a different story altogether.

Commander1980

I also fitted some KGuns to the Dido at the node normaly for the Torpedos, 1 thing I did notice is that the KGuns are still facing inboard (trained aft). This, if the KGuns ever did fire, would cause a very ugly mess indeed. However that will not be the reason they wont fire. I'm 100% sure the reason is this.

On AI ship's the NODES control the ammo TYPES just like thay do on PCO's (Player Controled Objects). Ergo, the T01 Nodes will NOT have DC ammo, ever !
Ok to prove a point take the S01 slots on a sub, IF u change the AA gun on a S01 slot to a 20mm AA gun, u will now have AA plus AP rounds for that 20mm AA gun, were as normaly the 20mm on its A01 slot only gets AP rounds. U do the same with a 105mm DG and place it on the S01 slot u now get 105mm AA & AP rounds only.

It wont matter if u add in the Basic.cfg the extra ammo types to the S01 or the A01 type ammo slots, it will never show up, even with a weapon change.

Conclusion
The T01 slot will only be usable for an object that never needs ammo (read Seach light or same) because untill an MDT (Mod Developers Toolkit) comes out and we can acctually make the damn Torpedo banks work on surface ships they are only ever going to be eye candy. So in fact whilst LC may have very well had DC's at same stage we on the other hand will not be able to do so.

The 1 thing that any game now requires to make it in the big leauges is Community MOD support and MP support beyond a token effort. Sadly this is not the case with SH3. Hell I have done a heap of models I wanted to place into a mod for the SH3 engine but without a MDT from Ubi, I may as well go fly a kite !!

[Pablo]

I know that the Atlanta Class had them, as well as several British auxiliary cruisers. However, I read that ASW weapons weren't really considered practical for vessels this large, and the Atlantas probably had them removed to make room for more light AA guns.
OK,

I found somewhat authoritative information for Atlanta-class light cruisers (CL-51 through CL-54) here (conduct query for "Atlanta") (http://www.nwc.navy.mil/usnhdb/class_info.asp) that indicates two depth charge racks and six depth charge guns. There is no indication they were removed, nor any indications on sonar types or capabilities.

The entry for the follow-on Oakland-class light cruisers (CL-95 through CL-98) doesn't indicate any depth charges, so it may just be for the four ships of the Atlanta class.

Pablo

[Commander1980]

I also fitted some KGuns to the Dido at the node normaly for the Torpedos, 1 thing I did notice is that the KGuns are still facing inboard (trained aft).

I fitted them to the Bofors platform also, because this note facing outboards - but no firing. I think she would fire them, when she is designated as an escort - i will try that later.

On AI ship's the NODES control the ammo TYPES just like thay do on PCO's (Player Controled Objects). Ergo, the T01 Nodes will NOT have DC ammo, ever !
Ok to prove a point take the S01 slots on a sub, IF u change the AA gun on a S01 slot to a 20mm AA gun, u will now have AA plus AP rounds for that 20mm AA gun, were as normaly the 20mm on its A01 slot only gets AP rounds. U do the same with a 105mm DG and place it on the S01 slot u now get 105mm AA & AP rounds only.

Different ammo types for the nodes are only defined for the subs. When you place a gun on a W (DCs), T or L (light) node on ships it will fire and it works (targets take damage).

It wont matter if u add in the Basic.cfg the extra ammo types to the S01 or the A01 type ammo slots, it will never show up, even with a weapon change.

This is right for the subs, yes. But the ships-files work independant from an "ammo-defining-cfg" - the ammo amount seems to be included in the weapons file. Just disarm a destroyer and place a heavy 15" gun only on the T or L-node - you will take damage from a 15" gun.
I noticed that the subs guns fitted on ships do not work properly - they stop firing after some time - a prove that they have not the same ammo amount as the ships guns.

The 1 thing that any game now requires to make it in the big leauges is Community MOD support and MP support beyond a token effort. Sadly this is not the case with SH3. Hell I have done a heap of models I wanted to place into a mod for the SH3 engine but without a MDT from Ubi, I may as well go fly a kite !!

Indeed :) Nice with your models - what models have you done?

[Hunterbear]

Hi Commander1980,

You're making good progress if you could get the cruiser to attack you.

As Rubini asked, what did you add to get her to attack you? Does she show up around the edge of the convoy like the DDs or does she still sail amist the convoy?

Maybe we'll have to clone the cruiser. One made out for escort duties to attack us and one for whatever she does when she can't attack us but fulfill her role for the rest of the game. Dunno?

Promising work, considering what Ubisoft left undone for the rest of the community to figure out and implement, hehe!

Keep us informed on your progress!

:arrgh!:

[Commander1980]

Cloning the cruiser would be the best, indeed :up:

I haven't time so far to test it, but i think when changing the unit-type of the Dido to that of a destryoer, she will attack the player. The hydrophones and asdic work on her, she only needs to be "fitted" with the destoryer-AI.

In NCL_Dido.cfg change Unittype from 6 to 3 (i think).

In NCL_Dido.sns add searching devices (look in a sns file of an escort, i do not have SH3 on that computer i am currently working on).

In NCL_Dido.eqp change the 40mm-AA guns to the linkname "KGun".

She than should attack you.

[Cdre Gibs]

with your models - what models have you done?

From lilun's

http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/S11.jpg

to bigun's

http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/Pola.jpg

[Col7777]

Those models are fantastic! I admire your skill very much, what sims do you model for, they are very detailed?

[Cdre Gibs]

These plus other are on hold for SH3, all pins on the release of a MDT.

If its not forth comming they will most likely be deleted.

[Commander1980]

Impressive! :o :o Very nice! :up:

Is that italian ship a Zara-class Heavy Cruiser?

[Cdre Gibs]

Its the Pola.

[Hunterbear]

Hi Cdr Gibs,

Those are an immpressive array of models. By no means scrap them. If we never get a SDK for SH3 maybe we will for SH4.

Keep up the great modeling.

Commander1980,

I will try your advice and see what happens. Thanks!

:up: :up:
:arrgh!:

[iambecomelife]

I know that the Atlanta Class had them, as well as several British auxiliary cruisers. However, I read that ASW weapons weren't really considered practical for vessels this large, and the Atlantas probably had them removed to make room for more light AA guns.
OK,

I found somewhat authoritative information for Atlanta-class light cruisers (CL-51 through CL-54) here (conduct query for "Atlanta") (http://www.nwc.navy.mil/usnhdb/class_info.asp) that indicates two depth charge racks and six depth charge guns. There is no indication they were removed, nor any indications on sonar types or capabilities.

The entry for the follow-on Oakland-class light cruisers (CL-95 through CL-98) doesn't indicate any depth charges, so it may just be for the four ships of the Atlanta class.

Pablo

That's surprising. I thought that once large numbers of DE's and DD's rolled off the slipways they'd remove the weapons. It seems like a waste to use a large, expensive, and unmaneuverable ship for something as risky as ASW work. To my knowledge the CL's never sank any submarines, and the "Juneau" actually damaged herself with one of her own depth charges a few months before she was sunk.

[AG124]

Cdr Gibs, do you have any new merchant ships as well, and what other warships do you have? Could you please post a couple of more screenshots? (in another thread if you like, so that this one will not get off the topic of cruiser hitpoints). I really like seeing these completed models, although it is uncertain if they will ever be released in the game due to the lack of a source code or expansion.

BTW - Is anyone here currently using the method of hex editing to create some new merchants? Just wondering.

[stljeffbb1]

Hey Cdr Gibs.....I, for a brief moment, noticed those other fine examples of ships that you posted....looked like some masted beauties.....would you be intereseted in re-posting those for the commuinity too....I think it would be quite cool to sink an 18th century version of a battleship!

-Jeff

[iambecomelife]

Cdr Gibs, do you have any new merchant ships as well, and what other warships do you have? Could you please post a couple of more screenshots? (in another thread if you like, so that this one will not get off the topic of cruiser hitpoints). I really like seeing these completed models, although it is uncertain if they will ever be released in the game due to the lack of a source code or expansion.

BTW - Is anyone here currently using the method of hex editing to create some new merchants? Just wondering.

I have a whale factory ship in the works, but it's on hiatus. I still need to find all the ID's in the dat file and learn how to move the superstructure from the default position on the "parent" unit, which is the T-3 tanker.

[Pablo]

OK,

I found somewhat authoritative information for Atlanta-class light cruisers (CL-51 through CL-54) here (conduct query for "Atlanta") (http://www.nwc.navy.mil/usnhdb/class_info.asp) that indicates two depth charge racks and six depth charge guns. There is no indication they were removed, nor any indications on sonar types or capabilities.

The entry for the follow-on Oakland-class light cruisers (CL-95 through CL-98) doesn't indicate any depth charges, so it may just be for the four ships of the Atlanta class.

Pablo

That's surprising. I thought that once large numbers of DE's and DD's rolled off the slipways they'd remove the weapons. It seems like a waste to use a large, expensive, and unmaneuverable ship for something as risky as ASW work. To my knowledge the CL's never sank any submarines, and the "Juneau" actually damaged herself with one of her own depth charges a few months before she was sunk.
Hi!

The Atlanta and others like her served mostly (some exclusively) in the Pacific, so it might be that the early successes of Japanese submarines against the U.S. battle fleet (CV Hornet and CL Juneau crippled or sunk, CV Saratoga damaged, etc.) might have persuaded the U.S. Navy to retain the Atlanta-class ASW capabilities as a secondary mission - I haven't met a ship driver yet who would voluntarily sacrifice even a secondary ASW capability.

Tactically, I could envision a submarine penetrating the ASW screen into the main body, and the closest ASW-equipped ship (in this case, a light cruiser providing AA cover) being ordered to charge the submarine to try to force it to dive below periscope depth and perhaps allow the rest of the main body to escape. The cruiser wouldn't have to sink it - just neutralize it.

The only way I can think of to find out for sure about these ships' ASW capabilities would be to review the ships logs at the U.S. National Archives to see if/when they were at least practicing with their ASW equipment.

Pablo

[Cdre Gibs]

That was basicaly the idea, It was a last ditch defencive action by a CL to keep the sub down. Hopefully a DD/DE would then be able to assume the action and allow the CL to get back to its normal task.

Is it better to tie up a CL as a tempory ASW or allow the sub to shoot at the BB's ?

Remember, a CL is to all intents and purposes a HEAVY DD. Its job is to screen the BB's if its in a Task Force or to Lead a Maruder Group (1 x CL, 5 x DD's/DE's) to seek out, close and engage the enemy and destroy it, be it air,surface or submerged.

[iambecomelife]

OK - that makes sense. Too bad that the "Juneau" was pretty much helpless already and unable to evade that Japanese submarine - imagine, only 10 survivors :nope:

As for the AI, is there any way to give the ships greater freedom of movement so that they respond better to the proximity of yoour sub? I think someone suggested earlier that we give all ships the same independent AI that only destroyers and escorts have right now. IIRC most ships now are like trains on a track, religiously following the waypoints except when zigzagging or trying to ram you.

[Commander1980]

I tried adding destroyer-AI to the Dido....and.....it does not work -> CTD. I think there has to be more done, than altering cfg-files. :roll: