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Rockstar

02-23-21, 06:21 PM

Deadline for troop withdrawal from Afghanistan is May 1st. Taliban threatens all out war if it doesn't happen. Personally I think the threat is just Taliban blowing smoke, we'll see come May I guess. Currently there around 10,000 NATO forces most notably Turk, German, Italian Dane as well as including 2,500 U.S. troops. Additionally there are also approximately 6,000 civilian contractors though not sure if they will be part of the withdrawal.

Skybird

02-23-21, 07:33 PM

Tja tja... He that will not hear must feel.

Trapped in the Afghan maze. Telling so since 2006. They cna stay another twenty years, and they will not achieve anything lasting. Its like squeezing a rubber ball. The moment you let go your grip, it bounces back into its former form.

Without US air transport and air support, the German contingent is screwed, their battlefield air mobility is zero. Hard to believe that they still are there. Even in the army, realism has moved in, and hope has been given up. The only ones still blowing into the trumpet, are reality-disconnected politicians who cannot bear that the mission has been lost - lost since beginning on.

I hope the Americans pull out. Then it will be seen what the Europeans do. If they are as smart as they think in their capitols, they are already gone before the Americans move out. Recent comments by the German foreign ministerial casper however are discouraging. I dont think they have learned anything from the past 17 years or how long it has been. the German military leaders have, and their enthusiasm to stay is very muted. Troops, so I heard, do not tlak much anymor elike years ago: "we stay as long as the msisioin is not accomplished", "we will only leave when the country has been stabilised", "we cannot go because then the losses and sacrifices would have been in vein". Realism has defeated naive idealism. Finally. I waited very long for this sobering. But the politicians have not learned.

The current desastrous EU commission president Super-Uschi with all her glorious remarks on vaccinations and programs and green deal policies, was the former German defence minister. Just as a reminder. Food for thought, isn't it...

I cant see the German contingent being able to face indeed a full out war aiming at them directly, but this is what could be coming if the American support is no longer there. Could easily end in a total catstrophe. And I do not talk about a political one for the parties and governments at home, but a REAL one.

Platapus

02-23-21, 07:55 PM

Do we know what our mission is in AF any more?

Skybird

02-23-21, 08:17 PM

To bring light into a land of darkness, ehem...

I do not know however how to translate that into a military mission objective that, once acchieved, marks the criterion for "mission end" and "begin pullout." In other words, to my best knowledge neither a clear military definition of objectives nor a criterion when said mission is considered to be achieved and thus pullout begins, have ever been given. It has all been war on terror, and plenty of wishy-washy.

It has been a bit like jumping out of the plane with the plan of thinking in mid-air and falling about how to get hands on a parachute. Dynamic process orientation, flexible mission design, you know. You have to go with the times, how gotta be flexible and solution-oriented. Sexy new language and creative terminology usage are key. The logic behind this political trick: to know that one cannot impact on the ground as long as one has not gotten a parachute. Thats why the fall to the ground could last forever, in these smart minds' thinking at least. Well, I have my ear-wax ready, to save my eardrum.

P.S.
Reminds me of an anecdote a US historian recently told on German TV, in a docu on the Japanese "defence forces". Formally, Japan has no army, the constitution prohibits that. When being confronted on some question on Japanese participation in international military scenarios, theoretically or real, the Japanese diplomat said, that where there are Japanese defence forces present there cannot be a military conflict existing and so it is harmless to be there - where Japanese soldiers-that-are-no-soldiers are present, there cannot be a warzone, becasue else the Japanese would not be there. The presence of the Japanese proves it that ther eis no war, because Japasnese forces are no "forces". According to Japanese diplomatic logic. - No joke, but real!

Germany for years and years refused to call the war in Afghanistan actually a war.

Rockstar

02-23-21, 09:50 PM

Aktungbby

02-23-21, 10:52 PM

Do we know what our mission is in AF any more?

...The mission has always been about regional stability. Import also is to establish political influence by propping up a western friendly Afghan government too. Which is also helpful by making it harder for ChiComs to establish relations and its belt and road initiative in the region.

One wonders if the ChiComs, having observed the Russian and motor out across the bridge, and the DamnedYankees make a muck of the Middle East generally, incl. Iran Iraq and Syria, & Yemen would even care to try their greedy hand :hmmm: ..."two outta three" having been bad. Our stabilizing skill was gone way back in 'Nam!
:O:

Skybird

02-24-21, 05:10 AM

NATO troops, U.S. included, are scheduled to leave Afghanistan 1 May. The major and most obvious difference between them is the U.S maintains direct control of U.S forces. NATO is the command center for the others involved. There has already been talk of extending that deadline though.

The mission has always been about regional stability. Import also is to establish political influence by propping up a western friendly Afghan government too. Which is also helpful by making it harder for ChiComs to establish relations and its belt and road initiative in the region.
That are politically defined objectives, no military ones, and that has always been the problem with that operation, from beginning on when the first Europeans unboarded there. For the Americans, it was about Osama, Al Kaida and all that.

A reminder: in tbe beginning, the Americans did not want the Europeans and rejected their offer to get involved. Not before their own task had kind of bogged down, they invited the Europeans into the swamp to share the mess.

mapuc

02-24-21, 09:28 AM

As mentioned before.

We lost the peace in Afghanistan.

Markus

Skybird

02-24-21, 10:32 AM

What peace, Markus? There hasn't been peace since before the Sovjet invasion. And even before that they had their tribal disputes and internal blood revenge things going.

Rockstar

02-24-21, 10:42 AM

That are politically defined objectives, no military ones, and that has always been the problem with that operation, from beginning on when the first Europeans unboarded there. For the Americans, it was about Osama, Al Kaida and all that.

A reminder: in the beginning, the Americans did not want the Europeans and rejected their offer to get involved. Not before their own task had kind of bogged down, they invited the Europeans into the swamp to share the mess.

Military objectives have always been according to the UN mandate to overthrow the militant Taliban government and prevent Afghanistan from ever again being a safe haven for weaponized terrorist/radical religious zealots.

I'm not sure about the U.S. declining Europe's assistance. The U.S. got the green light from the U.N. to overthrow the Taliban government in 2001. We started bombing shortly afterwards and I'm sure there were small recon elements in country to assist with that. A year or so later in 2003 under operation 'Enduring Freedom' both NATO and U.S. forces participated in the so called invasion and have been there ever since.

Since all European forces are under command of NATO and the U.S. maintains direct control of its own. I'm thinking the major contribution of Europeans invasion forces under NATO command were initially delayed until recon got things stabilized. Reduces chances of friendly fire at the initial stages of the invasion process .

Jimbuna

02-24-21, 01:01 PM

Rockstar

02-24-21, 02:31 PM

Our task was not bogged down we set the stage for the years ahead. Sure it may not be world peace and it may not be perfect but things have changed for the better in Afghanistan. The plan now is too keep that way.

"Afghanistan has changed," says Zekeria, a high-school graduate from the capital, Kabul. "We won’t let the Taliban force their ideas on us again."

https://www.rferl.org/a/afghanistan-has-changed-post-2001-generation-on-prospects-of-peace-with-taliban/29892071.html

Skybird

02-24-21, 03:52 PM

No, things are not that much improved at all. The early advancments have been totally reversed already. Civil rights. Woimen equality and freedoms. Girl schools. Anti-corruption. Training fo their army and security. It all is reversed, partially already back on the levels before 2001. Afghanistan is a giant drug producer, still.

And worst of it: whatever there is that you see as advances - it only lives under the protection of Western guns, and where these guns are present.

That now the US had negotiated already with the Taleban about US withdrawel shows how successful the mission was! The Taleban cannot be reformed. A pro Wetsenr givernment will live without Wetsenr protection for as long, probaly shorter than ther pro-Sovjet government did aftere the Sovjets pulled out.

I have always called Afghansitan and Iraq 2003 strategic defeats of the US. And I stick to that. And worst: you never have had a chance to "win", becasue the Us potlicians as well as the European potlicians enver have really udnerstood what they are dealing with, and what Afghanistan is.

Go on, stay for another generation if you want, create this beacon of dmeocracy that Bush already dreamed of. You will not succeed.

Thats not my bad wishing, or hoping for the worst. It simply is the reality of having bitten off more than one can chew.

The hunt for Osama - understandable, and all the war associated with it. I would have done the same, thogzu differently. But i would have pulled out once that objecitve had been acchieved. It was the only clearly defined objective in the whole Afghanistan mess ever: find and kill Osama Bin Laden.

Instead nation building. Faile din iraq. Failed in Afghanistan. Failed in some many other places.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/afghanistan-russia-and-the-war-index

The Russians were not aware that during a decade of conflict, Afghanistan’s already high war index had jumped from 4.65 to 6.53. Faced with that extreme drive of angry young men, it was the Communist superpower that gave up the fight.
(...)
When American troops went into battle in 2001, Afghanistan’s war index was higher than ever. No matter how many smart bombs America and NATO dropped, Afghan forces grew stronger. The West was still not aware it was battling demographics. With an average of seven to eight children being born to each woman, Afghan insurgents could easily replace their losses.
(...)
So President Trump has good reason to feel uneasy about Afghanistan. Today Afghanistan’s pool of warriors numbers above 5 million; the country’s war index is almost 6.0.

These are very reelevant considerations. So relevant that the author was asked to teach them until 2020 at NATO Defence College in Rome. Without an understanding of the logic behind the war index, you cannot make competent decisions about when to start a war - and when better not.

Aktungbby

02-24-21, 04:33 PM

One wonders if the ChiComs, having observed the Russian and motor out across the bridge, and the DamnedYankees make a muck of the Middle East generally, incl. Iran Iraq and Syria, & Yemen would even care to try their greedy hand :hmmm: ..."two outta three" having been bad. Our stabilizing skill was gone way back in 'Nam!
:O:

That now the US had negotiated already with the Taleban about US withdrawel shows how successful the mission was! The Taleban cannot be reformed. A pro Wetsenr givernment will live without Wetsenr protection for as long, probaly shorter than ther pro-Sovjet government did aftere the Sovjets pulled out.

I have always called Afghansitan and Iraq 2003 strategic defeats of the US. And I stick to that. And worst: you never have had a chance to "win", becasue the Us potlicians as well as the European potlicians enver have really udnerstood what they are dealing with, and what Afghanistan is.
The hunt for Osama - understandable, and all the war associated with it. I would have done the same, thogzu differently. But i would have pulled out once that objecitve had been acchieved. It was the only clearly defined objective...PRECISELY! it was Mr Bin Laden who once stated American soldiers are 'paper Tigers'......perhaps he wasn't far off the mark.:hmmm: and considerably kinder than "suckers and losers" as described by the Commander in Chief Trump!!??

Rockstar

02-24-21, 05:09 PM

Only way we get rid of the Taliban is to round them up and start gassing. But ummm we don't do that. So, seeing as how the Taliban are there we have to negotiate, including the two leading Afghan political parties who at the time are not inclined to invite the Taliban to the table. Either they start working together or we stay past May 1st. By 'we' I mean NATO and U.S. forces as both Biden and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg have stated. Europe has just as much an interest in a stable Afghanistan as anyone else.

I want to add that its not just the U.S. which open to negotiation with the Taliban either.

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/85012/afghanistan-statement-eu-high-representativevice-president-josep-borrell-start-intra-afghan_en

Onkel Neal

02-25-21, 10:02 PM

Ugh, do you think we will ever get out of that mess?

Skybird

02-26-21, 02:54 AM

We will get out the day our politicians turned realistic. As long as the illusion persists to turn the country into a western model or religious backwardly fanatics could be "reformed", no.

Their war index still is around 6. Ours around 1, and below. Guess which civilization will have the longer breath. Overaged against overyouthed society. Good luck with that constellation.

Platapus

02-26-21, 05:26 PM

Ugh, do you think we will ever get out of that mess?

We did not learn from the British when they got stuck there
We did not learn from the Soviets when they got stuck there

We, the US, were different and we would show everyone how it is done.

Speaking as an old crusty vet, I don't see anything in AF that is worth a single additional American life.

Rockstar

02-26-21, 10:32 PM

Well it was a U.N. mandate that got the ball rolling. Only one nation and coalition on earth had the reach, materiel, and power to project its will half way across the globe. What we've accomplished is something no other nation on earth could. The British tried the Soviet Union tried. This time we got it together and U.S. and NATO forces went in and with the use of their military were able to fulfill that mandate. Politically it remains unseen if the people of Afghanistan can grab hold and not let go of the opportunity we fought for and gave them. I'm under no illusion that it will somehow be perfect when we leave, it wont. It does however need to be relatively stable enough so that it will not fall back into the anarchy of the 80's and 90's and become a terrorist safe haven. The U.S., E.U. want a stable Afghanistan and Russia needs it.

I guess we'll find out May 1st

Moonlight

02-27-21, 10:01 AM

^Poppycock, the Taliban will wrest control from the Afghan government once the foreign invaders have left, it might take them 5 years or more but once again it will become a terrorist safe haven.

Haven't the UN or the US learnt anything from all the other invasions they've been involved in, most of those people don't want to be little westerners, and its time that the US and any other foreign invader realised that. As for any civilian contractors left in Afghanistan, they'd better use there brains and get the hell out of there quick or they're going to have them splattered all over the streets.

Change the strategic decision makers thinking first to take the above into account before the next invasion occurs or the same screwup is going to happen again. All you've done is given the Taliban the ability and knowledge to kill and melt away into the night without any consequences. When the air cover and foreign troops are gone then they wont even be melting away, that's not the groundwork of a successful invasion old boy, its a bleeding ongoing disaster, and its of their own inept and limited thinking.

Super Powers 0-2 Afghan warlords.

Rockstar

02-27-21, 11:08 AM

We better run while have the chance? You do realize U.S. and NATO forces have been there for close to 20 years now. If brains were going to be splattered in the streets chaos and Taliban everywhere. I think it would have happened long ago and we would have tucked tail an run like the Brits and Soviets did. The next invasion has already occurred there is no quagmire. The Taliban are no longer in power and we're still there and we're the ones setting the terms of our departure.

I know, its hard to see it any other way when the world is crashing in around you on a daily basis. But things change, and since the death of Mullah Omar even the Taliban have expressed an interest in a political solution. But like I said there is only so much the West can do. I don't expect a perfect Afghanistan when we leave, the rest is up to them to make it work.

Skybird

02-27-21, 11:26 AM

He who does not listen, must feel.

Afghanistann will only be not another hellhole again as long as foreign troops stay there. Its like holding a spring stretched out. It stays like that only as long as you keep holding it.

In other words: those foreign forces must stay forever.

Enjoy your stay. Keep up the spirit, but do not forget: forever is a very long time.

This way, spiderwebs get self-spun in which we entangle ourselves.

Oh, and btw: since 2006, the puppy production in Afghanistan has raced from production world record to production world record, reaching an all-time high in 2017. The western presence not only not prevents it, but even seems to help protecting it - if not by in intention then nevertheless in net effect. That are the drugs that then flood onto the streets in Western cities and get bought by your kids.

Sweet dreams are there to find you,
sweet dreams to leave all worries behind you,
but in your dreams, whatever they be:
dream a little dream of Afghanistan.

Trapped in the Afghan Maze!

Rockstar

02-27-21, 05:41 PM

Hey Skybird, what we're talking about in this thread is The War On Terror. Opium trade and poppy fields is The War On Drugs handled by another office down the hall. Stay on topic or start a new one please! :D :03:

Skybird

02-27-21, 06:26 PM

You cant be serious with that clever discrimination.

Back in 2006 I wrote a very long paper and linked it here, maybe you remember. You cannot separate the two in Afghanistan. Drugs are an integral part of the terror problem there. Finances, anyone?

If under the overwatch of Western military the biggest drug production in the world cna blossom and earns records year after year, than something goes terribly wrong with the whole mission.

Moonlight

02-27-21, 07:06 PM

You cant be serious with that clever discrimination.

Of course he is you bloody nutcase, :haha: he's got the same mindset as Hollywood and the US military, you know, the one that miraculously turns a cluster**** into a victory of epic proportions. :O:

August

03-02-21, 12:19 PM

Back in 2006 I wrote a very long paper and linked it here, maybe you remember.

I have to hand it to you Skybird. The depths of your narcissism just continues to amaze me even after all these years! I will throw your words back at you. You can't be serious!

Catfish

03-02-21, 12:38 PM

What about drugs made from poppies, and who sells it to where? :hmmm:
Depending on what you read it is Europe or the US who buy all the heroine.

Found this interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jan/09/how-the-heroin-trade-explains-the-us-uk-failure-in-afghanistan

Rockstar

03-17-21, 04:29 PM

Taliban and Kabul government to meet in Moscow

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/asia-pacific/taliban-and-kabul-government-to-meet-in-moscow

The US State Department said Monday that Washington’s special envoy to Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, will also attend the meeting in Moscow as part of ongoing US efforts “to encourage and support the peace process.”

Moonlight

03-18-21, 07:10 AM

While your yank politicians and military have been dithering the Taliban will have been gathering their forces again for another season of bloodshed, hurry along Biden as the Taliban will use deadly force if that's what's needed.

Afghanistan on brink of total carnage as Taliban threatens all-out war if Biden doesn’t withdraw troops by May 1

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14373962/afghanistan-brink-taliban-war-biden-troops-deadline/

Rockstar

03-18-21, 11:46 AM

Speaking of politicians and military, any word on the other 7,092 troops from Europe stationed in Afghanistan? Last I heard NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg didn't think pulling out of Afghanistan was such a good idea.

Moonlight

03-18-21, 12:51 PM

Good question, I would have thought that May 1st was meant for all military personnel and not just the US troops, the NATO Secretary General should also spend a tour of duty there on the front lines before spouting his big mouth off.

Rockstar

04-17-21, 06:25 AM

Posted on April 11, 2021 by M. K. BHADRAKUMAR
A “win-win” for US, Turkey in Hindu Kush

Turkey is entering the cockpit to navigate the Afghan peace process to a conclusion that meets US objectives. This will have a salutary effect on the fraught Turkish-American relationship. The US appreciates that preferred engaging Turkey is an influential OIC member country, enjoys historical links with Afghanistan and has a positive image among Afghans....

Overall, these geopolitical realignments are taking place as the US intensifies its suppression of China and Russia. But, for Turkey, the intervention in Syria has proved profitable. The Turkish-controlled territories of northern Syria consists of a 8,835-square-kilometre area already and Ankara has no intentions to vacate its occupation.
Turkey will no doubt look for similar gains. For a start, regaining primacy in the western alliance system as the US’ irreplaceable partner and as Europe’s interlocutor with Muslim Middle East has always been a Turkish dream. A clincher will be whether Washington can prevail upon the EU to grant some special dispensation for Turkey — “associate membership” is one possibility.
For EU, too, Turkey becomes a key partner if NATO is to consolidate in the Black Sea and encircle Russia in its backyard. Turkey has already positioned itself as a provider of security for the anti-Russian regime in Ukraine. Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky visited Erdogan on Saturday against the backdrop of rising tensions with Russia.

https://www.indianpunchline.com/a-win-win-for-us-turkey-in-hindu-kush/

Platapus

04-17-21, 06:35 AM

It should be noted that even if (when) the US removes troops from AF, it will still remain as a priority ISR target for a long time.

We will just be admiring teh AF culture from afar. :03:

Skybird

04-17-21, 10:43 AM

We fought 20 years to successfully find an exit and get out. Now, finally we are rewarded with success. Mission accomplished! :88)
Never more hear me say: "Trapped in the Afghan maze!"

Rockstar

04-17-21, 12:11 PM

Note the time of our exit, September 11th. Can't wait for the endless media hype and farce as both parties accuse each other of politicizing the event. :roll:

nikimcbee

04-17-21, 11:56 PM

Only one answer for this then....form an EU Army then haggle with the Taliban over trade agreements.

North Sea fishing rights?:k_confused:

Jimbuna

04-18-21, 06:54 AM

North Sea fishing rights?:k_confused:

Sounds a bit fishy to me :03:

Reece

04-18-21, 07:11 AM

Correction Jim. "smells a bit fishy" :oops:

Onkel Neal

04-18-21, 08:41 AM

Rockstar

04-18-21, 09:17 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9kbuAynSok

"I will not pass this responsibility to a fifth." :roll:

Suddenly US President Joe Biden “has decided” to pull troops from Afghanistan, something which was apparently a “bad idea” when Donald Trump proposed withdrawal from Afghanistan May 1st. :haha:
Yes on September 11th 2021 it seems Biden will bring back the remaining known 2,500 U.S. troops home. What he didn't say is we are privatizing the war using the tens of thousands remaining civilian contractors, mercenaries and CIA operatives. Our job is not done.

Historian and political commentator Dan Lazare said many US policymakers remained determined to preserve their base in Central Asia offered by Afghanistan in the hope of using it to try and destroy the unity of China.
“America will lose a Central Asia outpost from which to influence events in neighboring Xinjiang,” Lazare told Sputnik. “CIA armchair strategists are concerned because the dismemberment of China remains the ultimate US goal.”

https://eurasiantimes.com/us-fears-losing-strategic-foothold-in-afghanistan-to-china-russia-analysis/

Also, lets face it there is TRILLIONS of dollars worth of known mineral wealth to secure in them thar hills too!

vienna

04-18-21, 10:07 AM

The Afghan pullout is yet another "no win" situation for yet another US President; back when Obama announced the pullout of troops for Iraq, the howls from GOP leaders over how he was 'compromising US security' were loud and long; what they seemed to avoid noting is that the decision to withdraw and the establishment of a deadline were both made by President GW Bush, just prior to leaving office; Obama was faced with either honoring the US commitment to withdraw imposed by Bush or to rescind the decision; if he honored, the GOP would howl about compromising us security; if he rescinded, the GOP would howl about Obama going back on a US commitment and that he was exercising overt Presidential authority; it was just damned if you do, damned if you don't...

The same applies now; if Biden pulls out the troops as T**** ordered, the GOP howls about compromised security; if Biden rescinds, the GOP howls about Biden keeping us in a no-win war, reneges on a stated US commitment, and is exercising overt Presidential powers; again damned if you do, and damned if you don't...

The GOP, in both cases, had the luxury of being able to criticize the actions of a new administration, sniping if you will, from the sidelines, while refusing to acknowledge the situation was the result of actions taken by their own standard bearers; in all of this, as in so many other areas where the GOP has been vociferous in criticism, the really nagging question is: Where are the viable GOP solutions, where are the viable GOP alternatives? Its one thing to stand by the side and criticize, but, in the end it is not real leadership, by any means; if you are going to forcefully criticize the actions or inaction of someone in a critical situation, you'd better have some sort of viable alternative(s); criticizing the firemen is a useless, needlessly distracting waste of time if you don't have another plan to stop the building from burning down...

<O>

Skybird

04-18-21, 10:21 AM

The simple truth is, pulling out is the only intelligent option left. To base that decison on the security status or the state of things regarding pace, stability, human rights, is a guarantee that foreign troops will stay there until into the next century. Biden has correctly recognized this. There will never be a wanted Western model of society, and therefore these qualities will never be there.

And this could have been known from beginning on.

Biden said he is the fourth president now who has to deal with the pullout decision - and that he does not will to leave it to a fifth one. I miss the lacking applause for this statement - its shows class.

The US should have gone after Mullah Omar and Osama, and once they got them, get out. But no, that was not good enough, one had to talk about nation building and beacons of demoracy and all that ideals stuff disconnected from what could be acchieved in pragmatic reality.

The mission post-Mullah Omar and post-Osama never had a chance. I was based on lacking insight and knoweldge about the region - and megalomania.

Whats being done with the Afghans who worked as helpers and aides to the foreign troops? They are death candidates if they must stay.

mapuc

04-18-21, 10:26 AM

They have rushed onto the scene without any plans on how to proceed.

Secondly-The biggest mistake USA and Soviet did was.....become friends with one part of the civilization/religious group

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

Third
If you do not have the nerve to what it takes to gain almost 100 % control of the country you want to invade-then stay out.

Fourth
Most important of all have a reason to why you want to invade a country.

Markus

Rockstar

04-18-21, 04:58 PM

You're right, we're back to the finger pointing right down party lines, again. But one thing is for certain we will never know if Trump would have followed through removing troops by May 1st. And we will never know what better relations with Russia could have been like or if it was even possible.

As for Biden's September 11th plan, that remains to be seen. He was pretty clear early on in his campaign he was against removing troops, so was the Pentagon, the CIA, the Generals and certain elected representatives invested in certain companies profiting from the conflict in Afghanistan.

September 11th is NOT written in stone. In fact it is a date conditional on several factors many of which gives Biden a lot of wiggle room and discretion. But we're only talking about 2,500 regular U.S. troops

Like I said a few posts above we may bring the 'known' regular troops back, but there will probably be as much as 10,000 or more civilian contractors that are there now will remain. Rumor control central said we will still be operating two bases there. Who's going to man them? I figure those contractors, which include the builders of cities and infrastructure and of course former vets, now guns for hire to continue to carry out our foreign policy goals.

As it stands now Russia has invested in Kabul with Arms, money, housing and cultural centers, China is trying hard to establish better trade with Afghanistan. There is oil, pipelines to India that need to be built, mining wealth to be excavated, and lots and lots lithium. We are not going to leave it too them.

Skybird

04-18-21, 05:38 PM

Quite good analysis and summary.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://mosereien.org/zwanzig-jahre-sind-genug/

The author:
Oliver M. Haynold grew up in the Black Forest, Germany, and lives in Evanston, Illinois. He studied history and chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania and received his doctorate from Northwestern University with a dissertation on the constitutional tradition of Württemberg. Since then he has worked as a management consultant, in the financial industry and as a freelance inventor.

Rockstar

04-19-21, 09:35 AM

I think the so called war on terror in Afghanistan ended a long time ago. When we first began the effectiveness of combat operations was highly praised. Because we were able to rout the enemy with superior technology, airstrikes and an amazingly minimal number of troop on the ground. I think the subsequent build up of troops had little to do with fears of suddenly losing the war, quagmire or another British death march. The additional influx troops was I think fueled mostly by the need to now start building a friendly Afghan government, army, police, and infrastructure. As things began to settle and a sense of normalcy returned we began reducing the numbers.

Chances are that on September 11th the U.S. and NATO will be moving the remaining 'declared' combat troops out. But, we are I think privatizing this operation now as the government is still signing deals with private contractors in Afghanistan.

Instead of declared troops in Afghanistan, the United States will most likely rely on a shadowy combination of clandestine Special Operations forces, Pentagon contractors and covert intelligence operatives to find and attack the most dangerous Qaeda or Islamic State threats, current and former American officials said.https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/us/politics/biden-afghanistan-withdrawal.html

Skybird

04-19-21, 11:20 AM

Rockstar

04-19-21, 12:20 PM

^Still, the time of official support and peace plan and infratsructure rebuilding and social reformation and cultural reeducation and nation building - will be ended. From then on its just terror policing like in many other countries, and protecting own economic assets/interests, also like in many other places.

Also, the European contingents will be gone. Germany plans to have left by mid-August.

Its a different situation.

I got this sneaking suspicion even after withdrawing declared troops. Europe will be similarly involved in Afghanistan. I could be wrong, but I bet Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit will still be there. Heck, maybe British G4S Global will even provide for its security.

Nobody, not even Europe or Germany is going to just roll over and give up gained ground. Its not how the military industrial complex works.

Onkel Neal

04-19-21, 12:25 PM

mapuc

04-19-21, 12:45 PM

Funny, you didn't mention the Dems howling when Trump pushed for pulling out....

Because
Biden = Good guy
Former President = Very bad guy

Markus

Skybird

04-19-21, 02:28 PM

I got this sneaking suspicion even after withdrawing declared troops. Europe will be similarly involved in Afghanistan. I could be wrong, but I bet Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit will still be there. Heck, maybe British G4S Global will even provide for its security.

Nobody, not even Europe or Germany is going to just roll over and give up gained ground. Its not how the military industrial complex works.

No, cannot see the GIZ staying all alone there. They are not bulletproof. And just 40+ people from Germany. And I take it for certain that the Taleban will take over the country sooner or later. And then the calender gets moved back by some centuries again.

If NGO stay there without mandate by the government, its their show then. And the Germans, when they were there, could not even evacuuate their wounded without American medivac, and had no air miblity, and needed Russian and Ukrainian support and other former sovjet repoublics support to get their supplies and troops shuttled in and out.

What the heck has such a depending army to do there...?? After 20 years, I still have not gotten it. Thats as if I wanna go spear-fishing, but cannot swim, have no spear, no mask, the doc told me not to go deeper than 1 m, and I am afraid of water.

August

04-19-21, 05:50 PM

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

That's really terrible invader advice there Markus. :)

All one would be doing with that strategy is making enemies both out of potential friends and neutrals. Ask the Germans how that works. Their universal brutality when they invaded the USSR forced the subjugated peoples of the satellite nations to side with the Reds who they detested with a passion, and with good reason. That took real effort! But it illustrates why the "kill them all and let God sort them out" method you suggest might not be a good strategy to adopt if one wants to win. :up:

Jeff-Groves

04-19-21, 06:27 PM

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

Third
If you do not have the nerve to what it takes to gain almost 100 % control of the country you want to invade-then stay out.

So your saying KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT IT OUT.

Don't be coy just come right out and say it!

Now I might be wrong but.....
Ain't that the tack the Nazi's took way back? Just build ovens to deal with the un-wanted.

I have no respect for anyone that would exterminate without prejudice.

Catfish

04-20-21, 04:20 AM

mapuc

04-20-21, 08:19 AM

My friends this is WHY I hate war..almost knowing what one must do to take control over an another country isn't exactly something I would prefer.

You have been so nice to quote some of my comments.

You forgot the most important

"Fourth
Most important of all have a reason to why you want to invade a country."

So had USA and its allied a reason to invade ? Had USA and its allied a reason to stay that long without having full or almost full control over the country ?

Markus

Rockstar

04-20-21, 03:10 PM

You forgot the most important

"Fourth
Most important of all have a reason to why you want to invade a country."

So had USA and its allied a reason to invade ? Had USA and its allied a reason to stay that long without having full or almost full control over the country ?

Markus

With war on terror in Afghanistan somewhat over. Our goal now I think is to establish a western friendly government and to have influence in Afghanistan trade and politics. So maybe instead of a cou try filled with backasswards religious zeolots and terrorists we might be able to peacably bring them further into the 21st century.

Though I do expect combat troops to be withdrawn by September 11th. I do think we will be fully privatising our 'occupation'. To hopefully bring in business and stability.

Reminds me of Rammstein's Amerika song. its wunderbar. lol

And as one article suggested we will also continue the work of dismembering China.

Skybird

04-20-21, 03:15 PM

Our goal I think is to establish a western friendly government and to have influence in Afghanistan trade and politics. So maybe instead of a cou try filled with backasswards religious zeolots and terrorists we might be able to peacably bring them further into the 21st century.

(...)
To hopefully bring in business and stability.

On what planet have you lived the past 40+ years...? Why do you think everybody is pulling out?

However, there will be graveyard peace and drug business and brutally enforced stability indeed - the Taliban's.

Lets be clear and stop still having those illusions about Afghanistan that have kept everybody in for 20 years, and before that the Sovjets, and before that the British. The nation building mission is lost, it had no realistic chance from all beginning on. Live with it.

Rockstar

04-20-21, 03:35 PM

On what planet have you lived the past 40+ years...? Why do you think everybody is pulling out?

However, there will be graveyard peace and drug business and brutally enforced stability indeed - the Taliban's.

Lets be clear and stop still having those illusions about Afghanistan that have kept everybody in for 20 years, and before that the Sovjets, and before that the British. The nation building mission is lost, it had no realistic chance from all beginning on. Live with it.

We'll see, I still say we'll be operating in Afghanistan but with private contractors. If Russia thought it safe enough to set up shop open cultural centers and build in Afghanistan again. Why wouldnt we stay to protect and further develope relations?. It makes absolutley no sense to just disappear from Afghanistan

Skybird

04-20-21, 03:48 PM

Oh, if your nation thinks it stll has interests in afghanbiostanb, I am sure it will seek to guard them one way or the other. What I am saying is that all this idea of nation buildiung and reofmrign trival culture and boosting dmeocracy was and is an illusiuon that has - once again - shown to get shattered in Afghanistan. But if twenty years of your own war and the years of the Sovjets fightign with much less scruples and greater determination, and the British before them still do not teach the lesson - okay then, believe on.

Meanwhile, the rest of the planet will move on. Without Afghanistan, I have no doubt.

August

04-20-21, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by mapuc https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2742996#post2742996)
When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

All right, what else is indiscriminate area bombing of civilian targets like cities then?

I didn't say it was the only example one could think of but it's certainly a better one than that. Unless of course you could show that by the WW2 Allies stopping strategic bombing in their areas it would have convinced say Bavaria or Baden-Wurttemburg to turn against the Berlin Government in 1943 or 44.

I used the example I did because there was a lot of built up resentment against the Soviets in the satellite nations like Ukraine and the Baltics, that the Germans could have used to their advantage had they played their cards better. Instead they treated everyone they met as an enemy to be annihilated (now know as the Mapuc Strategy :)) so instead of getting willing cannon fodder up at the front they had a bunch of pissed off partisans in their rear areas.

Moonlight

04-21-21, 05:25 PM

^That's true, the German army would have had an helpful populace in the Ukraine just for starters, other regions would have followed soon enough but the Germans started killing them instead, what a bleeding screwed up strategy. :o

Skybird

04-21-21, 05:27 PM

The German defence ministry plans to pull out even earlier than originally planned, and be done July 4th, if NATO plans allow. The plan before eyed mid August.

Rockstar

04-24-21, 09:34 AM

https://ez-afghanistan.de/en

Germany may be withdrawing its armed forces. But the development of Afghanistan is still an ongoing mission. Now in the hands of private contractors and corporations. In Germany's case it seems to be focused solely on building communities and infrastructure.

The U.S. and British are doing the same thing and as I mentioned earlier so is Russia. However in addition to building better relations through community, and infrastructure. The U.S. and British seem to have quite a formidable corporate army & security forces, hired guns if you will, at their disposal too.

Because contractors operate in the shadows, without effective public oversight, they allow policymakers to have their cake and eat it too – by appearing to withdraw, while keeping proxy forces in theater.

Withdrawing declared troops from Afghanistan does not mean the end of our involvement. Not an easy job, but its never been the quagmire everyone cries about either. For one, unlike the British march from Kabul we're no longer using 1860's technology. Neither do have (at the moment) a crippled economy like the Soviets which IMO was the reason they were forced to withdraw.

However from this point on much of what happens in Afghanistan will be up to the Afghans.

Rockstar

04-25-21, 09:03 AM

Now accepting applictions for jobs in Afghanistan, Iraq and points east.

To get you started, we believe these are the top ten private military and private security employers. You could feel proud of yourself if you secure employment or start a career with any of these companies!
http://www.privatemilitary.org/private_forces.html

https://dyncorp.jobs.net/search?keywords=Security&facetcountry=af

somebody has to protect those do gooders building homes for Afghans ;)

August

04-25-21, 09:43 AM

Contractors? Is that what they call Mercenaries these days? Hired killers is all they are.

Rockstar

04-25-21, 11:37 AM

Contractors? Is that what they call Mercenaries these days? Hired killers is all they are.

No no. We dont hire mercenaries or killers. I think the new woke term is corporate security force. lol

Rockstar

04-25-21, 11:43 AM

Story time. Some of which I admit I dont agree with. Still, an interesting foreign opinion.

Unocal , Bridas , Taliban and the Turkmanistan Gas pipeline

The Caspian Basin located under the Central Asian states of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakkstan, holds an estimated 300 trillion cubic feet of gas and 100-200 billion barrels of oil. Securing the world’s last remaining known energy Eldorado is strategic priority for the western powers. China can only look on with envy.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unocal-bridas-taliban-and-the-turkmanistan-gas-pipeline.33935/

Rockstar

04-26-21, 07:28 PM

Contrary to What Biden Said, U.S. Warfare in Afghanistan Is Set to Continue

... What Biden didn’t say was as significant as what he did say (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/04/14/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-way-forward-in-afghanistan/). He declared that “U.S. troops, as well as forces deployed by our NATO allies and operational partners, will be out of Afghanistan” before Sept. 11. And “we will not stay involved in Afghanistan militarily.”

But President Biden did not say that the United States will stop bombing Afghanistan. What’s more, he pledged that “we will keep providing assistance to the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces,” a declaration that actually indicates a tacit intention to “stay involved in Afghanistan militarily.”
And, while the big-type headlines and prominent themes of media coverage are filled with flat-out statements that the U.S. war in Afghanistan will end come September, the fine print of coverage says otherwise.

....“Regardless of whether the 3,500 acknowledged U.S. troops leave Afghanistan, the U.S. military will still be present in the form of thousands of special operations and CIA personnel in and around Afghanistan, through dozens of squadrons of manned attack aircraft and drones stationed on land bases and on aircraft carriers in the region, and by hundreds of cruise missiles on ships and submarines.”

https://worldbeyondwar.org/contrary-to-what-biden-said-u-s-warfare-in-afghanistan-is-set-to-continue/

Not to worry though Im sure soldiers of fortune , err I mean corporate security firms do not discriminate and accept applications from all over the world. Including German veterans! I bet ya catfish already sent his application in ;)

Rockstar

05-02-21, 08:20 PM

May 1st has passed. Delayed troop withdraw leads to Taliban response. Chaos engulfs Afghanistan its turned into a QUAGMIRE!

Just kidding.

Afghan security forces kill 81 Taliban terrorists (https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269163538/afghan-security-forces-kill-81-taliban-terrorists#)

ANI
02 May 2021, 20:37 GMT+10

Kabul [Afghanistan], May 2 (ANI): As many as 81 Taliban terrorists were killed and 52 others were injured across Afghanistan in the past 24 hours, the Afghan Defence Ministry said on Sunday. The Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) carried out operations in several provinces including Ghazni, Badghis, Kandahar, Helmand, and Takhar.

https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269163538/afghan-security-forces-kill-81-taliban-terrorists

BUT to be fair no word if Afghan security forces suffered any casualties

August

05-02-21, 08:36 PM

May 1st has passed. Delayed troop withdraw leads to Taliban response. Chaos engulfs Afghanistan its turned into a QUAGMIRE!

Just kidding.

BUT to be fair no word if Afghan security forces suffered any casualties

Yeah or if any real live Taliban were actually harmed.

Rockstar

05-03-21, 07:52 AM

After reading another article from the same source. The 81 killed may have been in response to a Taliban attack on a Afghan government post the previous day.

I blame racism,

Moonlight

05-03-21, 08:04 AM

They were probably sheep herders who were either caught sleeping in their beds or they were caught red handed interfering with the livestock, I've been told they don't take kindly to such goings on. :O:

Rockstar

05-03-21, 04:42 PM

https://i.imgflip.com/11sv4d.jpg

Rockstar

05-08-21, 11:11 PM

This headline cracks me up. Sending more in for a pullout :doh:

US sends more reinforcements for Afghan pullout: Pentagon

ANI
07 May 2021, 12:37 GMT+10

Washington DC [US], May 7 (ANI): Additional troops and capabilities have been transferred to the region to boost security, which includes six additional B-52 Long Range Strike bombers and a package of 12 fighter bombers, the US Department of Defense said in a statement on Thursday....

https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269289767/us-sends-more-reinforcements-for-afghan-pullout-pentagon

Moonlight

05-09-21, 08:39 AM

And so it begins.

US condemns attack near school in Kabul
https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269340810/us-condemns-attack-near-school-in-kabul

Large scale violence grips Afghanistan
https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269341239/large-scale-violence-grips-afghanistan

When will the USA realise that a large portion of the Afghan population don't want any western infidels in there country, these attacks will continue until the Westerners **** off and leave them to it.
Being the cynic I am, which Western individual has the most to gain from the Security Services being there and, it wouldn't have to do with them protecting his green fingered endeavours would it. :O:

Jimbuna

05-09-21, 01:25 PM

Carnage lies ahead but I suspect we all realise that.

Rockstar

05-15-21, 06:51 PM

Afghan govt delegation, Taliban discuss peace talks (https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269478023/afghan-govt-delegation-taliban-discuss-peace-talks#)

ANI
15 May 2021, 12:37 GMT+10

Doha [Qatar], May 15 (ANI): After months of stalled negotiations, the Afghan government's negotiating team and the Taliban leadership met in Doha, Qatar on Friday to discuss speeding up peace talks.

https://www.afghanistannews.net/news/269478023/afghan-govt-delegation-taliban-discuss-peace-talks

Moonlight

05-30-21, 01:51 PM

We can't have this thread disappearing yet, the video in the link gives a bit of insight to exactly what the Taliban is or are.

Who are the Taliban? | Start Here
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/news/who-are-the-taliban-start-here/vi-AAKwY9t?ocid=msedgdhp

Catfish

05-30-21, 02:07 PM

Good video, but the difference between Russia and the US seems to be that the Taliban received wepaons from the US to get rid of Russians, while the Taliban did not need support for getting out foreign forces now.
And after this it will be all like 40 years ago?

mapuc

05-30-21, 02:39 PM

?? isn't Taliban supported by some countries in the Middle East ?

Seem to recall some article where it said Taliban got support from..

Markus

Catfish

05-30-21, 02:51 PM

?? isn't Taliban supported by some countries in the Middle East ? Seem to recall some article where it said Taliban got support from.. Markus
Yes there are some, but i take it the main support for the Taliban is coming from their international customers like us, read buying drugs and noble/rare earths and resources from them. You can even read this in the media if you know what to look for.

Moonlight

06-20-21, 09:52 AM

It won't be long before the Afghan government capitulate, I didn't think the Taliban would find it so easy against the security forces, this will turn into a rout in much less than a year.

The changes, announced late on Saturday by the presidential palace, come as Afghan security forces battle the Taliban in 28 of 34 provinces in the country, with the hardline Islamic group claiming more territory in recent weeks.

On Friday, 24 members Afghan special forces soldiers were killed and dozens more wounded during a fight to retake a district captured by the Taliban in northern Faryab province, security officials said.

Since the United States announced plans in April to pull out all of its troops by Sept. 11, at least 30 districts have been seized by the Taliban.

Afghan president replaces two top ministers, army chief as violence grows
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/afghan-president-replaces-two-top-ministers-army-chief-as-violence-grows/ar-AALeNLL?ocid=msedgntp

Bilge_Rat

06-21-21, 02:27 PM

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R7cd08ff13ac71e8c8774c354d9e760f3?rik=CEO%2bgR8i4Q 1QzA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fnetwrok.us%2fstuff%2ftaliban-reagan.jpg&ehk=Ffn0LXvzOYe93rKUMq3B6CjzLb68wM59zTGTSNhiRvE%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw

I remember when the Taliban used to be the good guys......

August

06-21-21, 04:55 PM

I remember when the Taliban used to be the good guys......

Those aren't Taliban, they are Mujaheddin. Just because they wear similar hats doesn't make them all the same you know.

vienna

06-21-21, 06:46 PM

It all goes back to the long-standing moral equivocations of US foreign policy: "they may be SOBs, but they're our SOBs..."...

<O>

Moonlight

06-25-21, 09:48 AM

A sign of desperation or a decisive tactical move, these killer militias helped to oust the Taliban 20 years ago but I don't think they'll be doing that this time.
This is the last throw of the dice for the Afghan government, if this latest initiative fails the disillusioned Security Forces will melt away into the hills soon to be followed by the government.
Many of the citizens will hopefully survive the Taliban reprisals but their will be bloodletting, and lots of it. :o

Taliban gains drive Afghan government to recruit militias
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/taliban-gains-drive-afghan-government-to-recruit-militias/ar-AALqCx3?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

Skybird

06-29-21, 04:42 PM

The Germans are out. German media report the last 250 German soldiers have been flown out this evening, with several transports, to Tiflis, Georgia.

On the height of the engagement, up to 1300 BW soldiers were based in afghansitan. The 20 years costed the lives of 59, 35 of them in combat and bomb assaults.

A female veteran whose interview I red some weeks ago, said just this for a closing: "Heck, we have been so naive to even get engaged there. So many illusions!"

Skybird

07-02-21, 06:07 PM

Bagram airbase fully evacuated and handed over to the Afghan army. Last major troop contingents of ISAF are out. Plunderers already inside the perimeter, it is reported. Tells something of the success of the training programs westenr armies ran on Afghan forces. Not that this enlightenment comes as something new.

No way to weasel around it: its another, the latest strategic defeat in a string of such defeats. Calling it differently, is glossing over it.

Western intelligence service take bets whether the Taliban take 6 months to capture Kabul - or even less. That the Afhghan government gets toppled, is almost taken for granted.

Bad for the civilian population, especially the females. But the outcome was predictable, and staying longer would not have changed anything. Not changing while lasting. Change only lasting under the guard of the bajonets, is no change, just a deadlock.

No longer trapped in the Afghan maze, but out of it - finally.

August

07-02-21, 10:09 PM

Nobody is talking about what happens to all the Afghanis who worked for us over the years.

Buddahaid

07-03-21, 12:37 AM

Nobody is talking about what happens to all the Afghanis who worked for us over the years.

Not so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37WMmZ4r_M

Rockstar

07-03-21, 06:53 AM

Yes people are talking about it but so bleeping what? So far it’s only been pledges and promises. Unfortunately even interpreters don’t believe any of it. Most if not all of the visa administration processing points have already been evacuated and abandoned.

Though we still have corporate security forces there and some personnel with access to drone and air strike coordination.

Jimbuna

07-03-21, 08:13 AM

Time to take Afghanistan off my vacation list me thinks.

There's a wealth of military assets within its walls; but that treasure is a top target for Taliban, not to mention corrupt commanders and others eying this fortune.

August

07-03-21, 09:57 AM

Not so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37WMmZ4r_M

Well it's good to hear that there is at least a plan. Given what the guy in this video and Rockstar said do you think they have a chance in pulling it off?

mapuc

07-03-21, 10:00 AM

Is it to much to hope that our elected politicians will not think twice but three and four times before thinking of invading an another country.

'cause this one have been a big failure.

Markus

August

07-03-21, 10:05 AM

Is it to much to hope that our elected politicians will not think twice but three and four times before thinking of invading an another country.

'cause this one have been a big failure.

Markus

Depends on what you define as victory Markus. Surely the survival of the present Afghan government was not among it's initial objectives right? As I recall we went into Afghanistan to destroy Al Quaeda operations in that country and to get 911 mastermind bin Laden. Both of those objectives were achieved. This nation building stuff was a new goal added on later mainly just as an excuse to stay there and keep feeding the military industrial complex.

3catcircus

07-03-21, 11:20 AM

Depends on what you define as victory Markus. Surely the survival of the present Afghan government was not among it's initial objectives right? As I recall we went into Afghanistan to destroy Al Quaeda operations in that country and to get 911 mastermind bin Laden. Both of those objectives were achieved. This nation building stuff was a new goal added on later mainly just as an excuse to stay there and keep feeding the military industrial complex.

This. 20 years. $$Trillions. Thousands of deaths or injuries. And we're right back where we started with murderous Taliban thugs brutally oppressing the country and its people.

It won't stop there - there will be continued insurgencies in SW Asia and ME for decades.

Otto Harkaman

07-03-21, 11:56 AM

3catcircus

07-03-21, 12:45 PM

Worked great when it was just small special forces units helping local militias against each other but when the regular troops surged in the outcome was inevitable. We tend to invade countries without "Moral Law"

https://i1.wp.com/www.writtenchinese.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/10-Inspirational-Chinese-Proverbs-from-Confucius-700X300.png?resize=700%2C300&ssl=1

It's not even that. It's that the political leadership relies upon military leaders who are incapable of actually leading with the intent to win a war. They're happy to get embedded like a tick to keep the $$ flowing...

3catcircus

07-03-21, 03:34 PM

Don't quote me if you have no idea what I'm talking about. Even the greatest military leader, Alexander the Great couldn't hold onto the region.

Oh, I understand. But previous invaders went in with the intent to win, capture the region, etc.

The US hasn't fought a war with the *intent* to win since Korea. What was it intent in Afghan? Capture OBL and punish the savages who flew planes into buildings.

Those savages are still there, controlling more than 50% of the country.

OBL was hiding in plain sight and wasn't taken out until he was no longer necessary as a political bogeyman.

If our intent was actually achieved, Afghan in 2020 should look like a modernized version of Afghan in the 1960s.

Politically-motivated military leaders with a cabal of neocons pissed it all away over the past 20 years.

Rockstar

07-03-21, 06:34 PM

Well before we all start going on about how Afghanistan is lost, quagmire, blah blah. Keep in mind we (the U.S.) have had decent relations with the Taliban in the past. The Taliban also desire diplomatic recognition and believe it or not have tried to conform to international community standards. Though admittedly they still seem to have a long way to go.

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/Afghanistan-Peace-Process_Talibans-Quest-for-International-Recognition.pdf

Interesting too is the fact that they are not mentioned anywhere in our National Strategy For Counter Terrorism. :hmmm:

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/features/national-strategy-for-counterterrorism

Otto Harkaman

07-03-21, 07:19 PM

I haven't read about Afghanistan in the 1960s

I did enjoy reading Field Marshal Frederick Sleigh Roberts, 1st Earl Roberts, VC, KG, KP, GCB, OM, GCSI, GCIE, KStJ, VD, PC, FRSGS book "Forty-one years in India, from subaltern to commander-in-chief" years ago with its description of The Battle of Kandahar and defeat of Ayub Khan, 9/1/1880

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Battle_in_Afghanistan.jpg

Skybird

07-04-21, 10:07 AM

Field Marshal Frederick Sleigh Roberts, 1st Earl Roberts, VC, KG, KP, GCB, OM, GCSI, GCIE, KStJ, VD, PC, FRSGS book

You're sure you did not miss something? :haha:

Otto Harkaman

07-04-21, 03:27 PM

You're sure you did not miss something? :haha:

Probably :)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Frederick_Sleigh_Roberts%2C_1st_Earl_Roberts_by_Jo hn_Singer_Sargent.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Roberts,_1st_Earl_Roberts

Catfish

07-04-21, 03:35 PM

re the Beau video
"They did not call it "OPERATION NEW LIFE II"
That made me laugh at first, but then i choked.

"The deal to leave was made before Biden."
Doing it all wrong for the right causes.. no understanding, no empathy.

Otto Harkaman

07-05-21, 07:48 AM

China makes her move with "Belt & Road" program
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9755531/China-prepares-Afghanistan-following-Americas-departure-Belt-Road-program.html

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/05/01/45034427-9755531-image-a-26_1625444518776.jpg

Jimbuna

07-05-21, 08:36 AM

Not that this was unexpected but the Taliban are sweeping all before them.

More than 1,000 Afghan soldiers have fled to neighbouring Tajikistan after clashing with Taliban militants, officials have said.

The troops retreated over the border to "save their own lives", according to a statement by Tajikistan's border guard.

Violence has risen in Afghanistan, with the Taliban launching attacks and taking more territory in recent weeks.

The surge coincides with the end of Nato's 20-year military mission in the country.

The vast majority of remaining foreign forces in Afghanistan have been withdrawn ahead of a September deadline, and there are concerns that the Afghan military will collapse.

Under a deal with the Taliban, the US and its Nato allies agreed to withdraw all troops in return for a commitment by the militants not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.

But the Taliban did not agree to stop fighting Afghan forces, and now reportedly control about a third of the country.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57720103

mapuc

07-05-21, 09:01 AM

Otto Harkaman posted a link on China and Afghanistan.

Hmm Will China be the next country who will try to suppress the Afghan people and beat Taliban ?

if this would be the case I think China would have a better chance-They don't have to take democracy into consideration.

Best thing is leave Afghanistan alone.

Markus

Moonlight

07-05-21, 09:35 AM

mapuc

07-05-21, 09:42 AM

I think it's a superpower thing Markus, 2 have tried and failed already and now it's China's turn, if they stick to infrastructure building they'll be ok, but they won't, eventually they'll want a say in how to run Afghanistan and that's where they too will fail.

I guess you're right

I was thinking like-The Chinese does not have to stand trail to their media when they have killed 50 civilians in their effort to get 5 Taliban.

You do not kill civilian(my point)

Markus

Rockstar

07-05-21, 09:52 AM

Which Taliban faction are we talking about? I’m guessing their several moving in various parts of the country jockeying for position. My other guess is we may also be supporting one or more of those groups.

Aktungbby

07-05-21, 11:01 AM

mapuc

07-05-21, 11:31 AM

I say:
Leave Afghanistan alone, let them fight their own war. Try to impose an effective blockade of the country-This to prevent weapons getting into the country
(I know weapon will come into the country whatever our leaders do)

Markus

Skybird

07-05-21, 11:54 AM

If they go in, the Chiense will try to bribe and elase themselves in, then try to abuse the guilt their debtors have mounted. I do not think they will go in militarily.

That calculation sounds promising at first, but an old Afghan saying is about that you can never forever buy an Afghan, only temporarily hire him. History shows this to be true.You do not buy yourself in in Afghanistan.

I wonder whether the Chinese step into the trap or not. They might think their approach is superior. Well, it works great in Africa and on the Balkan and brings many states into dependecny form China, and in the EU's flank it is a poisonous arrow with hooks on it. But I am quite confident it will not work in Afghanistan. Possible however that the Chinese then become so furious that they start runnign amok then. Not hot but ice-cold amok, of course. They already commit genocide against many minorities and ethnicities, they will not suddenly grow moral scruples.

Aktungbby

07-05-21, 12:14 PM

If they go in, the Chiense will try to bribe and elase themselves ....., they will not suddenly grow moral scruples."Chienese actually means "no moral "screwpals".:O: COMRADE Xi, just this week at the 100 Commie Bastard's anniversary reiterated that "China will not be bullied"...that it may better bully everyone else. :yep: Now, instead of one baby per family, the new policy is three per family...:o in a country of 1.4 billion:x people out of 8 billion globally, that isn't going to help global warming, Wuhan virus variants, or any other pandemic issues. WWIII is well under way. The West is just too dumb to see it.:arrgh!:

Jimbuna

07-05-21, 01:37 PM

Stay well out of it....no good will ever come of it.

August

07-06-21, 01:36 PM

Looks like the Biden administration is all talk but so far no action.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/military-veterans-demand-biden-save-afghan-allies

Rep Seth Moulton, D-Mass., spoke at a rally on Friday to demand presidential action for American's Afghan (https://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/afghanistan) allies, such as interpreters who took great risks to help American troops and now are being left behind as U.S. military forces withdraw from the country.
Standing in Lafayette Square in front the White House, Moulton, a former Marine officer with multiple combat tours, said, "I want to thank veterans all across America, veterans of different political parties and different wars, who are coming together today and reminding Americans (https://www.foxnews.com/us) that we have a promise to uphold."
The rally came one week after the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/us/politics/afghan-interpreters-visas.html) reported that the Biden administration was notifying lawmakers that the U.S. would soon begin relocating thousands of Afghan allies to third countries while they await processing for their special immigrant visas. However, congressional members on both sides of the aisle have yet to receive details.

Onkel Neal

07-06-21, 02:49 PM

Taliban fighters can be seen in recently released videos celebrating the seizure of US Humvees, tanks and assault weapons from Afghan security forces as the Biden administration begins its troop withdrawal before the Sept. 11 deadline.

The Taliban have been capturing key districts in the northern part of the war-torn country — including Kandahar and Badakhshan — with little or no resistance from Afghan national forces since the US announced the timetable for the departure in April.

They are extending their control of Afghanistan from their southern strongholds by filling the void left by the departing US forces.

More than a thousand Afghan soldiers fled across the border to Tajikistan after clashing with the Taliban in Badakhshan and surrendered their weapons.

The Taliban are touting the capture of the US weapons as a propaganda ploy in videos released on social media, heralding their return to power after being defeated by American troops in 2001 for harboring al Qaeda and its leader Osama bin Laden and allowing the terror group to plan its 9/11 attack.

Well, that's another war we lost. Cannot believe how pitiful the Afghans are, they had freedom in their grasp, handed to them on a silver platter, and after 20 years of protection, they give it away.

The speed of the US pullout is marked by the hasty abandonment of Bagram Airfield — the hub of US military operations during the 20-year war — over the weekend without giving the Afghan government a heads up, a sudden departure that allowed looters to overrun the facility and help themselves to the numerous items left behind by the Americans.

Stupid Biden administration. (https://nypost.com/2021/07/06/taliban-celebrate-seizure-of-us-weapons-from-afghan-troops/)

em2nought

07-06-21, 03:39 PM

What a waste. :(

Skybird

07-06-21, 03:59 PM

Stupid Biden administration. (https://nypost.com/2021/07/06/taliban-celebrate-seizure-of-us-weapons-from-afghan-troops/)

Biden? He just draws the consequences needed. Or did you wish for staying another 20, 30 years there, being rewarded with nothing but stagnation that would reverse thigns to their worst status before the moment you one day pull out in one generation?

In the wake of 9-11 the US had certain hard reasons to go in and do what it did. It achieved those missions by trial and error and patience, but the problem were the follow-up ideas of nation-building and exporting democracy. Totally stupid idea in that part of the world, it is not civilised Germany or disciplined Japan. That is what broke the operation its neck. Not the original reason - the follow up ideas were the problem.

The way Bagram was left, probably was a good idea. To prevent the retreating last troops being shot in their back and their transports being "misseled down". And finally, there was no reason to walk out with a parade. The mission was not a success story, so silently leaving is somewhat adequate.

Worse is if the troops do not get politically recognised in their home country, like in Germany. Your troops silently sneaked out. But the German troops were met with total and complete political ignoration on their return to Germany. By the government. By the ministry, by the parliament. Disgusting. I do not want a parade, I do not like parades. But a welcoming back home. Some gesture showing class and format. Anything. Instead: nothing. To not remind of how totally orientationless the German political caste, responsible for and in command of this blind, clueless tapping around in the Afghan maze, has acted in the past 20 years.

Abu Ibrahim

07-06-21, 04:16 PM

I think that as my title says. This is the end of an era. Where many lives were taken, a lot of suffering happened. And all sadly for nothing. We can see from the Soviet Afghan war, Israeli Lebanese war and many others that this type of nation building with deep changing of the society just can't work, sadly it took many lives to see this. I hope that this end of an era, 20 years to be exact will give some wisdom to the US commanders, but I think I'm being positive here.

“History never repeats itself. Man always does.”

Jimbuna

07-07-21, 07:07 AM

When the whole pack of cards falls, which it most surely do, I;m wondering what the Taliban will do with regards to relationships with other countries.

Catfish

07-07-21, 09:03 AM

From the Washington Post, this is.. well.. all well known in 2019, and long before.

"Was al-Qaeda the enemy, or the Taliban? Was Pakistan a friend or an adversary? What about the Islamic State and the bewildering array of foreign jihadists, let alone the warlords on the CIA’s payroll? According to the documents, the U.S. government never settled on an answer.
As a result, in the field, U.S. troops often couldn’t tell friend from foe"

Nor did other NATO forces in Afghanistan..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/?document=lute_doug_ll_01_d5_02202015

Onkel Neal

07-07-21, 09:30 AM

Biden? He just draws the consequences needed. Or did you wish for staying another 20, 30 years there, being rewarded with nothing but stagnation that would reverse thigns to their worst status before the moment you one day pull out in one generation?

In the wake of 9-11 the US had certain hard reasons to go in and do what it did. It achieved those missions by trial and error and patience, but the problem were the follow-up ideas of nation-building and exporting democracy. Totally stupid idea in that part of the world, it is not civilised Germany or disciplined Japan. That is what broke the operation its neck. Not the original reason - the follow up ideas were the problem.
st 20 years.

Leaving is fine, I am ok with that. But bailing out without the coordination of our allies in the Afghan govt and military? Leaving stockpiles of weapons for the Taliban? Sounds like a Trump move.

mapuc

07-07-21, 09:34 AM

Leaving is fine, I am ok with that. But bailing out without the coordination of our allies in the Afghan govt and military? Leaving stockpiles of weapons for the Taliban? Sounds like a Trump move.

First I was thinking, where have I read similar ? In a Tom Clancy book or some other books
Then I remembered it, it's from all these documentary about the end of the Vietnam war. If I remember correctly the retreat from Vietnam was chaotic. USA left a lot of weapon in Saigon and its surroundings.

Markus

Rockstar

07-07-21, 09:49 AM

When the whole pack of cards falls, which it most surely do, I;m wondering what the Taliban will do with regards to relationships with other countries.

This was no repeat of the British death March or the Soviet retreat.

You make sound as if the Taliban are one cohesive organization following the rule of one leader bent on destroying Afghanistan or as if they caused or departure. Our being there has absolutely nothing to do with freedom democracy, gay rights, racism or women’s rights, not even close. We are there to block China growing influence and exploit Afghanistan mineral wealth.

Sure we may hear of some mayhem as Taliban factions jockey for position and maybe the current government will fall. But regardless if that happens or not. I’m expecting to hear of large corporations begin building facilities to exploit the mineral wealth locked in Afghanistan. They use private security to get their way you know, and those private corporate mercenaries are still there and more are coming. We’ve spent twenty years teaching the Taliban chiefs about the worldly treasures locked in the ground and how they need to behave if they want to get rich.

Jimbuna

07-07-21, 10:00 AM

Well then, whichever way it goes, matters are going to be most 'interesting' in the coming weeks. months and years ahead.

Rockstar

07-07-21, 10:59 AM

The days of marching into battle waving flags and band music is a thing of the past.

https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Portals/68/Documents/strat-monograph/mercenaries-and-war.pdf

If war starts in Afghanistan AGAIN, it will be between various factions of Afghans supported by the major players in the international community. Accompanied by the usual headlines while we argue who’s to blame. Meanwhile the Military Industrial Complex is making money.

Otto Harkaman

07-07-21, 11:06 AM

Collapsing so fast just shows how dysfunctional was the whole thing, glad we left!

Otto Harkaman

07-07-21, 12:54 PM

Maybe the Great Game will now be China vs India?

Why did India open a back channel to the Taliban?
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/7/7/why-did-india-open-a-backchannel-to-the-taliban
India decided to form back channel communications with relatively friendly factions of the Taliban to avoid losing strategic space to its regional rivals, especially Pakistan, after the US’s withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Russia sits uneasy on the sidelines

"We are closely following what is happening in Afghanistan, where the situation tends to deteriorate rapidly, including in the context of the hasty withdrawal of American and other NATO troops," the Russian Foreign Ministry said. https://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/29846-russia_afghanistan/

mapuc

07-07-21, 01:04 PM

Is Afghanistan in any way strategic important ?

Markus

Rockstar

07-07-21, 01:26 PM

It was in the 80’s when the Soviets invaded. Now its importance its with regards to China plus it has mineral wealth I’m sure some would love to get their hands on or keep others from getting their hands on.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/who-responsible-taliban

Moonlight

07-07-21, 01:31 PM

Is Afghanistan in any way strategic important ?

Markus

Well it is next door to Iran Markus, apart from that I would say no it's not a strategic location, but, will the Taliban use Afghanistan as a terrorist safe haven again, now that should have been your question.
It would be foolhardy to say no they won't, and the Biden administration will have already discussed the possibility that it will happen, and just maybe it could be the spark that finally opens Pandora's box, a frightening scenario me thinks.
Terrorist safe haven and the USA's mortal enemy next door?, don't you think that killing two birds with one stone springs to mind, I think the polishing of some unused missiles could be taking place in a couple of years. :o

mapuc

07-07-21, 01:45 PM

Well it is next door to Iran Markus, apart from that I would say no it's not a strategic location, but, will the Taliban use Afghanistan as a terrorist safe haven again, now that should have been your question.
It would be foolhardy to say no they won't, and the Biden administration will have already discussed the possibility that it will happen, and just maybe it could be the spark that finally opens Pandora's box, a frightening scenario me thinks.
Terrorist safe haven and the USA's mortal enemy next door?, don't you think that killing two birds with one stone springs to mind, I think the polishing of some unused missiles could be taking place in a couple of years. :o

I think Taliban will spread their belief into some of the former Soviet states. Who is neighbour to Afghanistan.
Shouldn't be surprised if states like Tajikistan and Turkmenistan soon will suffer from terror attacks where the sender is Taliban.

Markus

Otto Harkaman

07-07-21, 04:02 PM

China is moving fast

China sets targets on Afghanistan as the final US troops depart
https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/defence-and-foreign-affairs/china-sets-targets-on-afghanistan-as-the-final-us-troops-depart/news-story/c1f4e3e86474f442d7bace1758e6da7e

$US62 billion investment with the “eight-point consensus”

Catfish

07-07-21, 04:17 PM

With which local chieftain do they negotiate? :03:

mapuc

07-07-21, 05:12 PM

In the Danish news today I heard about the Danish Ambassador and that he is worried on what will happen with him and his staff when the Taliban take Kabul.

I believe this fear is not only something in the head of the Danes who work in Afghanistan, I think every foreigners is worried

Markus

August

07-07-21, 05:50 PM

Kabul will likely see scenes like this soon.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/190423-saigon-feature.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=978

vienna

07-07-21, 07:33 PM

First I was thinking, where have I read similar ? In a Tom Clancy book or some other books
Then I remembered it, it's from all these documentary about the end of the Vietnam war. If I remember correctly the retreat from Vietnam was chaotic. USA left a lot of weapon in Saigon and its surroundings.

Markus

Almost all of the bug outs the US has made since WW2 has resulted in the leaving behind of military assets, if only because it is too expensive and time consuming to move them and, since it would take a significant amount of time, US personnel involved in the move would be subject to protracted attacks while the weaponry/material at their disposal was being diminished; since the US philosophy of war has devolved into 'war on the cheap', its now economics over what you wish would happen...

<O>

Rockstar

07-08-21, 08:20 AM

Taliban seek international recognition and diplomatic relations. Which means they are willing to change their behavior. It seems that after 20 years they actually learned something.

https://youtu.be/jXcy7FPN2T8

Jimbuna

07-08-21, 09:06 AM

^ I don't believe a word they spout.

Skybird

07-08-21, 10:07 AM

Maximum scepticism.

Taliban are not just patriots or nationalists. Taliban are religiously fanaticized extremists. Their roots lie in religious education by Pakistani schools for Afghan refugees during the post-Sovjet era. Famous Ahmed Schah Massoud tried to bind them into a democratically formed government after he had brought their military conquest to a halt. They assassinated him for that offer (and defeat).

You think its over 20 years ago and worth to give it a second try? You will regret that. Promised.

Rockstar

07-08-21, 10:34 AM

I’m not in anyway thinking the Taliban are saints and that after twenty years life is suddenly a bowl of cherries. But we are now seeing the Taliban desiring international recognition and they know they must play certain rules to have it.

Once in the club they become politicians they enter into the arena of gray zone politics and can be bribed just like all the others ;)

mapuc

07-08-21, 10:39 AM

Moonlight

07-08-21, 10:53 AM

Otto Harkaman

07-08-21, 10:59 AM

I think Taliban will spread their belief into some of the former Soviet states. Who is neighbour to Afghanistan.
Shouldn't be surprised if states like Tajikistan and Turkmenistan soon will suffer from terror attacks where the sender is Taliban.

Markus

Taliban fuels another war near Russian borders. Tajikistan asks for help
https://english.pravda.ru/world/36683-taliban_afghanistan/

Tajikistan has asked members of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) to help strengthen security on the border with Afghanistan

mapuc

07-08-21, 11:02 AM

I'm 150 % sure that Taliban will spread their belief onto their neighbour states
I can't say how successful they will be and if Afghanistan and some of the neighbour states will amalgamated into a bigger country.

Edit
Forgot that I already had written about this yesterday
End edit

Markus

Rockstar

07-08-21, 03:10 PM

I once read somewhere that Iran supported the removal of the Taliban, can anyone confirm that?, it must be a worrying time for Iran if that statement is true, fancy having some fanatical religious terrorists living next door to your fanatical suppressive Islamic republic, I can't see hostilities breaking out but I do wonder if incursions by either sides will occur at some point in time. :O:

My understanding is the Afghan Taliban are majority Sunni and wary of Iran. Just a guess, but I think the Saudi’s have a strong desire to strengthen ties with their Sunni brothers.

mapuc

07-08-21, 03:29 PM

My understanding is the Afghan Taliban are majority Sunni and wary of Iran. Just a guess, but I think the Saudi’s have a strong desire to strengthen ties with their Sunni brothers.

Sounds somehow like my enemies enemy is my friend

Markus

Moonlight

07-08-21, 05:52 PM

Rockstar

07-08-21, 06:22 PM

Rules of Engagement was the stupidest decision ever to be imposed on the US military, next time you have a war fight it like your enemy does with the gloves of diplomacy off, you never know you might win one for a change.

Biden defends decision to end Afghan military operation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57770436

Interesting that your government rag says the following:

Recent polls have shown broad US support for leaving Afghanistan, with Republican voters more sceptical of the decision to withdraw.

To that I wave the B.S. flag. The reports I’ve read indicate most people that desire withdraw are conservative voters since many are families which tend serve in the armed forces. And I would go so far to say even Democrat voters who serve probably have had enough also.

When Trump mentioned withdrawing only the Nancy boy liberal wannabe arm chair generals who never served a day suddenly became warhawks and questioned it. Crying like the little girly men they are, started whining about how we had to listen to the generals as they stayed busy changing their feminine hygiene pads. But I’d wager most of those which served were very much for putting an end to it. In fact it was one of Trump’s campaign promises that got him elected and he ran on the Republican ticket for chrissakes. Frankly, I don’t care if Trump or Biden wants to take credit, it doesn’t matter too me.

Catfish

07-09-21, 01:52 AM

"Analysis: Biden lost faith in the U.S. mission in Afghanistan over a decade ago"

Seems he had reasons..
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/biden-lost-faith-us-mission-afghanistan-over-decade-ago-2021-07-09/

Aktungbby

07-09-21, 03:07 AM

The Russians, having marched across the bridge in retreat; The U.S., doing a bugout like the departure from 'Nam; the Chinese are now preparing to move in with their
globally domineering thinly disguised Road & Belt Initiative to support the new (whichever)regime in Afghanistan...:hmmm: considering that Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan really couldn't handle this region either, Comrade Xi is welcome to try....:x:shifty::nope::dead:

"Analysis: Biden lost faith in the U.S. mission in Afghanistan over a decade ago"

Seems he had reasons..
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/biden-lost-faith-us-mission-afghanistan-over-decade-ago-2021-07-09/ Maybe Biden reads my posts: :Dhttps://www.historynet.com/indomitable-afghanistan.htm Despite Soviet advances in weaponry and some success in counterinsurgency tactics, Afghanistan had become a military and political quagmire, and by the end of 1987 the Soviets, then led by Mikhail Gorbachev, had had enough. Following their withdrawal from Afghanistan on Feb. 15, 1989, the country devolved into civil war, as heavily armed fighters from all sides and ethnic groups vied for power in Kabul, again demonstrating their tradition of resisting rule from their own capital as much as from foreign invaders.

Afghanistan remains a unique case in history, for its tribal-based society, its myriad ethnic groups who share a sense of nationalism when challenged by an outside power, and for its prohibitive terrain. Its people have learned over the centuries to resist every kind of invasion —indeed, resistance appears to be in the nation’s lifeblood. Mountstuart Elphinstone succinctly summed up Afghanistan’s character some 200 years ago:
There is reason to fear that the societies into which the nation is divided possess within themselves a principle of repulsion and disunion too strong to be overcome, except by such a force as, while it united the whole into one solid body, would crush and obliterate the features of every one of the parts. I welcome China's Road and Belt Initiative in Afghanistan. It will prove too costly to their frail bullying form of glitz and economic domination of poor nations currently ongoing since the 1959 takeover of Tibet.

Aktungbby

07-09-21, 01:50 PM

Comrade Xi is welcome to try.... https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-afghanistan-america-withdrawal As American troops complete their withdrawal from Afghanistan, Beijing appears to have been waiting in the wings for an opportunity to enter the war-torn country.
For President Xi Jinping and the Chinese Communist Party, Afghanistan is a crucial piece of the puzzle. It offers a portal through which the Chinese military might access the Arabian Sea, via Iran or Pakistan.
Afghanistan could also provide access to Iran and the Middle East, and a route to the Indian Ocean and on to Africa.
As China prepares to make significant investments that would secure its influence in Afghanistan, author and China expert Gordon Chang has doubts about the regime's ability to succeed. "Because the Chinese are more vicious, yes, I think they’ll have a better chance of achieving their goals in Afghanistan than us," Chang said in an interview with Fox News. "But having a better chance doesn’t mean they’ll succeed. I think they will just take longer to fail."

TALIBAN SURGES AS BIDEN PULLS US TROOPS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, WITH EXPERTS WARNING OF ‘FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER’

"We’ve seen China establish relationships in unruly areas, but this would be a much bigger commitment for them," he continued, pointing out that Afghanistan is one of 14 countries bordering mainland China. "This is not some far away commitment where they can just pull up stakes, once China goes in it is going to be extremely hard for them to get out."
As mentioned, one of China’s key interests in Afghanistan is access.
Chinese leaders have reportedly already been negotiating a deal with Kabul authorities to invest in Afghanistan’s infrastructure through China’s international "Belt and Road Initiative."
The trillion-dollar program has funded multiple projects, generally focusing on hard infrastructure like airports, roads and seaports, throughout Asia, Africa and the Middle East.
It has been used by the Chinese Communist Party to grow its influence by providing infrastructure loans to poorer countries in return for control over local resources, of which Afghanistan has plenty.
Tapping into Afghan’s vast natural resources has been a long-standing goal of China. The country sits on an estimated $1 trillion to $3 trillion in mineral wealth, including rare semi-precious gems, copper, iron, gold, uranium and lithium, which is essential in batteries for alternative energy sources.
The deal with the Afghan government would reportedly extend the $62 billion China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, a project started in 2013.
Chang, however, speculated that extending the BRI may end up benefiting the Afghans, not the Chinese. "I don’t think Belt and Road really is that important in terms of the way Afghans think," he said. "It just gives them more leverage over the Chinese, because once you start building infrastructure you’ve got to protect it."
When it comes to accessing Afghanistan’s vast untapped natural resources, he claimed it may be more costly than China anticipated. "It's going to be pretty expensive for them to get minerals out of Afghanistan."
"I'm not saying they can't do it; I think they probably will do it. But the cost is going to be much higher than they presently contemplate." "Afghanistan is an unruly country," Chang pointed out. "Even with [China’s] 30-year lease on their copper mine were not able to take advantage of it."
Finally, by gaining a foothold in the region, China seeks to deny Uyghur and other Turkish minorities sanctuary and avoid an anarchic scenario in which a rise in Islamic fundamentalism on its border threatens domestic security in China. "Beijing is committing genocide and crimes against humanity against them, and they’re worried that Afghanis are going to aid the Uyghurs," said Chang.
With its bought influence, Beijing will expect the Taliban to ignore the "genocidal" oppression of their fellow Muslims, the 12 million Uyghurs in China's Xinjiang province, which sits close to the Afghan and Pakistani borders.
Chang expressed his doubts, saying, "Although [the Chinese] are vicious, I don't think that they're as vicious as the elements that they're going to face."
"They've got a great relationship with the Taliban, but the Taliban are not the only element in Afghan society. There are a lot of militants with very different interests," he observed. "India can play these groups against China in Afghanistan, bedevil the Chinese, bog them down."
Ultimately, Chang said he believes the decision for the U.S. to withdraw from Afghanistan was the correct one.
"Right now, the most important threat to the United States are not the militants in Afghanistan, but China. We were bogged down in Afghanistan with this whole notion of nation building." He went on to suggest the U.S. focus on redeploying its forces to aid friends and allies in the regions surrounding China.
"Beijing has a lot of money, they can do a lot of things, but they can't do everything and right now they are overstretched. And it looks like they're going to add one more commitment to something that, yeah, maybe they can succeed, but is going to come at an enormous cost."
"I would love to see China get mired into Afghanistan," Chang admitted. "This is going to be fun to watch.":yeah:

Otto Harkaman

07-10-21, 04:35 AM

Why did the Taliban delegation come to Moscow for talks?
https://english.pravda.ru/russia/20445-taliban_russia/

a delegation of the Taliban* movement paid a visit to Moscow to assure the Kremlin that the Taliban* does not threaten either Russia or its allies in Central Asia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfe2Ml1NWss&t=186s

mapuc

07-10-21, 08:27 AM

^ And I am the real Santa

Markus

Rockstar

07-10-21, 04:20 PM

So we opened a can of good old fashioned whoopass and after twenty years of occupation we leave and the Taliban want to join the international community. They realize if they want to be recognized diplomatically they need to play by certain rules so they can reap the benefits the international community has to offer. Good for them, apparently some of what we have done and are still doing may have done some good.

Since Biden has no faith in the mission maybe he should allow someone else to take the helm. We could certainly use a leader right now instead of a quitter trying to cover his arse if things go wrong.

mapuc

07-10-21, 04:29 PM

Rockstar

07-10-21, 05:30 PM

Why did I get the picture where Chamberlain standing on the stairway outside the Plane waving with a piece of paper, when I read your comment the others where it says Taliban want to join the international community.

Markus

All I know is from articles I’ve read is they do want to be recognized politically and diplomatically. I’ve read the Taliban realize they must meet certain criteria set forth by the international community in order for that too happen. Who knows if they can hold it together long enough. I think the U.S. is ready as we have not officially included them in a list of terrorist threat assessments and we even went so far as to suggest the current Afghan government recognize them.

For twenty years all I’ve ever heard is quagmire, British death march, Soviet withdrawal, and now scenes of Saigon. Haven’t seen it yet.

Right now and much too India’s and possibly NATO’s delight, Pakistan at the moment is more worried about the Taliban than anyone. :)

Otto Harkaman

07-11-21, 09:22 PM

Older book, but just from a quick glance, makes me think we were just a passing diversion, regarding that all sides were waiting for us to leave so they could get back to the real game.

China’s strategic appreciation of its growing rivalry with India is, of course, starkly different. Beijing’s official policy is that it has no territorial or hegemonistic ambitions in Asia, other than reunification of Taiwan to the mainland. But, in reality, Chinese strategists are keenly aware that the steady growth of their nation’s power will accentuate already existing economic and strategic rivalry with India.https://covers.zlibcdn2.com/covers299/books/8c/59/07/8c5907dd7c1810c6480c6d4d23d5d741.jpg

Skybird

07-13-21, 02:41 AM

A grim though important reminder of what you are dealing with there.

Warning, violent images.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/13/asia/afghanistan-taliban-commandos-killed-intl-hnk/index.html

A famous German foreign correspondent legend, now dead, Peter Scholl-Latour, once wrote or said that during the Sovjet invasion, Russian prisoners sometimes were bound "spread eagle" on the ground and got their stomachs slit open, then were left for slowly dying from the sun and wild animals, birds.

Be careful whom you trust with your treaties you want to sign and whose promises and declarations of intentions you want to invest in. Its a wild place.

Buddahaid

07-13-21, 09:51 AM

Mr Quatro

07-13-21, 10:38 AM

Give it back to the Muslims ... that's all it really is

A war between Muslims ... at least South Vietnam wanted to be free of commie influence in their part of the country.

Now America and Russia have something in common we lost the same war :yep:

Rockstar

07-13-21, 10:56 AM

Withdrawal was committed to by that sad loser Trump, remember?

Historically both Biden and Trump were of the same opinion regarding Afghanistan. One a career government official who could use his power to sway Ukraine to protect his own son. Did nothing for the families whose sons he kept sending to Afghanistan.

The other lived up to his campaign promise and within a few years got us out. Action speak louder than words.

As for the mission it’s no longer direct military involvement rather gray zone diplomacy, we still need leadership, not hand wringing excuses. Kabul could very well fall in the next six months. I’m thinking because of not listing the Taliban amongst current terrorist threats and our past desire that Kabul recognize the Taliban we are preparing ourselves to deal with who ever is left standing after the smoke clears.

There’s only so much we can do for Afghans. If they want to keep what we gave them then they need to step up and fight for their own. Unfortunately Islam is a religion of terror and a power hungry few use that religion as an excuse to kill and maim the innocent to get their way. All in the name of a their loving allah of course :roll:

MaDef

07-13-21, 04:10 PM

Kabul could very well fall in the next six months. That's a generous assessment of Afghan military ability. I think the Taliban will be rolling into Kabul end of October, beginning of November.

mapuc

07-13-21, 04:42 PM

3catcircus

07-13-21, 04:59 PM

Would China make a different. Here I'am thinking. The government in Kabul is under pressure from Taliban so they speed up the agreement with the Chinese.

This in hope the Chinese would send troops to protect Chinese workers.

Markus

China doesn't care who is running Afghan. They'll deal with the current regime or a Taliban-run one, so long as they can run a pipeline or access to natural resources. The difference is that unlike westerners, the CHICOMs have decades of oppressing Muslims to draw upon when dealing with them. That, and they don't give a hoot about the optics of razing Afghan villages and putting everyone to the proverbial sword.

Buddahaid

07-13-21, 08:35 PM

China doesn't care who is running Afghan. They'll deal with the current regime or a Taliban-run one, so long as they can run a pipeline or access to natural resources. The difference is that unlike westerners, the CHICOMs have decades of oppressing Muslims to draw upon when dealing with them. That, and they don't give a hoot about the optics of razing Afghan villages and putting everyone to the proverbial sword.

Perhaps not, but all the talk is about infrastructure, not invasion, plus I don't see Iran, India, Pakistan, or Afganistan sitting around and letting that happen.

Catfish

07-14-21, 08:59 AM

"George W. Bush says ending U.S. military mission in Afghanistan is a mistake", for moral and humane reasons
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/george-w-bush-says-ending-us-military-mission-in-afghanistan-is-a-mistake/ar-AAM92qF

"China could soon have an unlikely supporter in Central Asia -- the Taliban"
"Following the withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan, the Taliban is again resurgent, taking control of great swathes of the country. The speed at which Afghan security forces have lost control to the Taliban has shocked many, and led to concerns the capital Kabul could be next to fall."
China is a welcome friend ..
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/14/asia/afghanistan-china-taliban-beijing-intl-mic-hnk/index.html

Moonlight

07-15-21, 12:01 PM

The Afghan government and the Taliban welcome infrastructure improvements do they, I hope these people are not under the misapprehension that China is going to pay for it all because they're not.
Its going to be a loan, and when the loan repayments from the Afghans stop, so does the Chinese Company workers, well at least the Chinese won't be shooting at the Afghans as they'll be too busy financially shafting them instead. :o

COWBOY BUILDERS Roads to nowhere, abandoned railways and half-built bridges – China’s ‘debt traps’ schemes which cost nations BILLIONS

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15493504/roads-to-nowhere-china-debt-traps/

Otto Harkaman

07-16-21, 07:31 AM

Interesting twisting bits of logic in this article from Pravda

Turkey plans to reach an agreement with the Taliban* to threaten Russia
The Taliban* threatens Turkey, but they will find common language some day, and Turkey will have an opportunity to control and influence many countries, including the countries of the former Soviet Union, expert Yuri Knutov believes.https://english.pravda.ru/world/21111-turkey_taliban/

Skybird

07-16-21, 08:21 AM

And the Sultan's next attempt to bite off a bigger bit than he can chew. It will fail like the ones before. Clear symptoms of megalomania. Not that they are a first.

Rockstar

07-16-21, 08:46 PM

This was from a Middle East Institute article written in 2018.

“…Commentary in the Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corp outlets indicate that Iran’s support to the Taliban is aimed at expelling US and NATO forces from Afghanistan, particularly from western Afghan provinces. In addition, one IRGC news agency raised alarm about the “growing influence” of Arab Gulf states in western Afghanistan, specifically citing Saudi Arabia’s interest to help finance the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) natural gas pipeline, which will connect Central Asia to South Asia through western Afghanistan. According to Afghan officials, Tehran wants to undermine the TAPI project because it rivals Iran's own regional pipeline project.”

Lots going on over there.

mapuc

07-16-21, 09:12 PM

One thing is certain, well I think it is

One day the entire Middle east, North Africa and parts of former Soviet will explode in huge regional war.

If it happens I wonder how NATO will act ? It would be pure speculations.

Markus

Otto Harkaman

07-20-21, 02:17 PM

Erdogan calls for US support for Turkey to protect Kabul airport

Turkey could run Afghan capital’s airport if US meets conditions on logistics and financing, President Erdogan says.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/20/erdogan-calls-for-us-support-for-turkey-to-protect-kabul-airport

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/000_9FE9AK.jpg?resize=770%2C513

Russia bewildered about Turkey protecting Kabul International Airport

The Russian Foreign Ministry is bewildered about the decision to deliver the mission to ensure security of the Kabul International Airport to Turkey after the withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan.

https://english.pravda.ru/news/world/47624-turkey_kabul/

https://cdn.pravda.ru/eng/image/preview/article/6/2/4/47624_five.jpeg

Jimbuna

07-22-21, 07:20 AM

I wonder what Erdogan's true motives are :hmmm:

Otto Harkaman

07-25-21, 07:52 AM

The Taliban explained
The armed group has emerged as a strong player as US-led foreign forces pull out of Afghanistan after 20 years.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/25/the-taliban-explained

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/4621f32f688e41639576d3397cc26fe4_18.jpeg?resize=77 0%2C513
The Taliban has set up a parallel state calling it the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan with their own white flag

Jimbuna

07-25-21, 11:47 AM

US airstrikes against the Taliban were carried out as recently as two or three days ago,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/07/23/us-afghanistan-airstrikes/

Otto Harkaman

07-25-21, 08:34 PM

US airstrikes against the Taliban were carried out as recently as two or three days ago,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/07/23/us-afghanistan-airstrikes/

Asked by a reporter about news reports of a Navy FA-18 airstrike in the Kandahar area, Pentagon press secretary John Kirby did not confirm specifics, including the type of aircraft or location, but said, "In the last several days we have acted, through airstrikes, to support the ANDSF," using an acronym for the Afghan national defense and security forces. "But I won't get into technical details of those strikes."
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/07/22/us-launched-several-airstrikes-support-of-afghan-forces.html

These are the approximate positions of the U.S. Navy’s deployed carrier strike groups and amphibious ready groups throughout the world as of July 19, 2021, based on Navy and public data. In cases where a CSG or ARG is conducting disaggregated operations, the chart reflects the location of the capital ship.

https://news.usni.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/FT_7_19_2021.jpg
https://news.usni.org/2021/07/19/usni-news-fleet-and-marine-tracker-july-19-2021

Long drive to work

Rockstar

07-25-21, 10:22 PM

Asked by a reporter about news reports of a Navy FA-18 airstrike in the Kandahar area, Pentagon press secretary John Kirby did not confirm specifics, including the type of aircraft or location, but said, "In the last several days we have acted, through airstrikes, to support the ANDSF," using an acronym for the Afghan national defense and security forces. "But I won't get into technical details of those strikes."
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/07/22/us-launched-several-airstrikes-support-of-afghan-forces.html

These are the approximate positions of the U.S. Navy’s deployed carrier strike groups and amphibious ready groups throughout the world as of July 19, 2021, based on Navy and public data. In cases where a CSG or ARG is conducting disaggregated operations, the chart reflects the location of the capital ship.

Long drive to work

We’ve also extended our reach a few years back with the ‘Logistic Exchange Memorandum of Understanding’ (LEMOA) with India who has graciously allowed use of a few of their naval ports and aiirfields at Adampur, Ambala, Chandigarh, Halwara, Hindan, Jaiselmer, Jamnagar, Jodhpur and Pathankot. Though its said only for logistics and fuel, latest scuttlebutt says other things have been going on too.

India :salute:

Aktungbby

07-25-21, 11:11 PM

All of which will augment our base at Diego Garcia....:hmmm:

Otto Harkaman

07-26-21, 05:21 AM

Gen. McKenzie acknowledged that there were tough days ahead for the Afghan government. "The Taliban are attempting to create a sense of inevitability about their campaign. They are wrong."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-tZmU2E0Sc

I could be wrong, but my gut feelings says the strike footage is just stock. I think the US is providing all the air support.

US vows continued air support for Afghan forces fighting Taliban

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-07-25T184823Z_1038200161_RC2URO9SN5DT_RTRMADP_3_AFGHA NISTAN-CONFLICT-USA.jpg?resize=770%2C513
US Marine Corps General Kenneth McKenzie, commander of US Central Command
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/25/us-vows-continued-air-support-afghan-forces-fighting-taliban

Jimbuna

07-26-21, 09:22 AM

I'd certainly agree on who is supplying all the air support when you consider the Afghan inventory as set out in a table contained within the link below.

https://www.key.aero/article/analysis-look-afghan-air-forces-aircraft-inventory

Otto Harkaman

07-27-21, 02:14 PM

"the death of empires, starts with a death of logic"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Uizq0eLAc
"China to conduct joint actions with Pakistan"

mapuc

07-27-21, 02:16 PM

I could very well see Chinese troops in Afghanistan, not yet though maybe in 5 years from now.

Markus

Otto Harkaman

07-27-21, 02:29 PM

I could very well see Chinese troops in Afghanistan, not yet though maybe in 5 years from now.

Markus

They have actually been there for awhile. There is a northeastern spur of Afghanistan that touches the Chinese border at Xinjiang

March 5, 2017 - Chinese troops appear to be operating in Afghanistan, and the Pentagon is OK with it

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2017/03/05/chinese-troops-appear-to-be-operating-in-afghanistan-and-the-pentagon-is-ok-with-it/

Moonlight

07-27-21, 03:24 PM

The first time any faction fires upon Chinese troops is when China will take the kid gloves off and start pouring men and materials into Afghanistan like the Russians and Americans should have done in the first place.

If its done like I expect the Chinese to do it the Taliban will be overwhelmed, outgunned and outmanned they'll have to resort to night attacks as fighting in broad daylight will be the death of them.

The Taliban are going to have to make some hard decisions soon as the Chinese won't be using any Rules of Engagement nonsense if it comes down to a fight.

Skybird

08-12-21, 11:27 PM

I belonged to those who believed that the situation would soon fall apart after a withdrawel. But the pace at which the Taleban move the time back to pre 2001, is so breathtaking that even I am surprised. I gave the Kabul government 6 months to lose the country. 6 days would have been a closer expectation.

This cannot be explained with military factors alone, I think. There must be a willingness in people to just let things slide back, at least in many. Which holds a lesson on how unsuccessful the West really was in changing "hearts and minds".

The German SED member Gregor Gysi wants to give financial aid to the Taleban, because then, so he dreams and in his own words, "we could dictate them terms and conditions."

Im speechless that a body without brains nevertheless can walk around and make sounds. Its a medical mystery to me.

Otto Harkaman

08-13-21, 04:25 AM

Which holds a lesson on how unsuccessful the West really was in changing "hearts and minds".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSfTXaqo18o

Skybird

08-13-21, 04:30 AM

Video not available in Germany due to copyright issues raised by Studiocanal.

Otto Harkaman

08-13-21, 04:37 AM

Video not available in Germany due to copyright issues raised by Studiocanal.

Its the scene from Apocalypse Now where Col Kurtz gives his monologue about how ruthless is the enemy, that it would be impossible to defeat them without the same ruthlessness. Here is another youtube but perhaps anything like this might not be available to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sodDYJRpQjY

Skybird

08-13-21, 04:50 AM

Thanks. I know the scene and your link also works.

I just found this link. The biggest harassment of the Afghan forces probably is - and we knew it - corruption.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58187410

Skybird

08-13-21, 07:00 AM

Just a random find, a snippet from a text in "Die Welt" that otherwise is behing a paywall. A German veteran, a sergeant mayor, told the reporter this:

"When I read on the news these days what is happening in Afghanistan: I am not surprised. We knew it was going to come that way. I once asked villagers: What is better, the time under the Taliban or the time with us now? The answer was: the Taliban. Because they are predictable and there was no corruption. Because calm without freedom and with Sharia law is more bearable than constant war with fear for the lives of women and children."

Jimbuna

08-13-21, 09:14 AM

The US and UK have scrambled reinforcements to Kabul to help evacuate their diplomats, soldiers and citizens as well as thousands of Afghans who have worked with them, as the Taliban advance towards the capital.

The Pentagon announced it would send three battalions, about 3,000 soldiers, to Kabul’s international airport within 24 to 48 hours of the announcement on Thursday. The defence department spokesman, John Kirby, said the reinforcements would help the “safe and orderly reduction” of US nationals and Afghans who worked with the Americans and consequently had been granted special immigrant visas.

The UK said it would send 600 troops, and the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, said Britain was relocating its embassy from the outskirts of the secure Green Zone to a potentially safer location closer to the centre of the capital.

As many as 200 UK diplomats and soldiers are being evacuated, but precise numbers are not being given. Britain expects to evacuate up to 4,000 entitled Afghans as well. Other western governments are also accelerating plans for the evacuation of embassy staff amid fears over the Taliban’s relentless advance across the country.

Canadian special forces will deploy to Afghanistan where embassy staff in Kabul will be evacuated before closing, an official told Associated Press on Thursday.

The German embassy in Kabul put out a tweet on Thursday urging all its citizens to leave the country as fast as possible on commercial flights.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/taliban-claim-capture-kandahar-grip-on-afghanistan-grows

Aktungbby

08-13-21, 11:20 AM

The Russians, having marched across the bridge in retreat; The U.S., doing a bugout like the departure from 'Nam; the Chinese are now preparing to move in with their
globally domineering thinly disguised Road & Belt Initiative to support the new (whichever)regime in Afghanistan... considering that Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan really couldn't handle this region either, Comrade Xi is welcome to try....Kabul will likely see scenes like this soon.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/190423-saigon-feature.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=978

The US and UK have scrambled reinforcements to Kabul to help evacuate their diplomats, soldiers and citizens as well as thousands of Afghans who have worked with them, as the Taliban advance towards the capital.

The Pentagon announced it would send three battalions, about 3,000 soldiers, to Kabul’s international airport within 24 to 48 hours of the announcement on Thursday. The defence department spokesman, John Kirby, said the reinforcements would help the “safe and orderly reduction” of US nationals and Afghans who worked with the Americans and consequently had been granted special immigrant visas.

The UK said it would send 600 troops, and the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, said Britain was relocating its embassy from the outskirts of the secure Green Zone to a potentially safer location closer to the centre of the capital.

As many as 200 UK diplomats and soldiers are being evacuated, but precise numbers are not being given. Britain expects to evacuate up to 4,000 entitled Afghans as well. Other western governments are also accelerating plans for the evacuation of embassy staff amid fears over the Taliban’s relentless advance across the country.

Canadian special forces will deploy to Afghanistan where embassy staff in Kabul will be evacuated before closing, an official told Associated Press on Thursday.

The German embassy in Kabul put out a tweet on Thursday urging all its citizens to leave the country as fast as possible on commercial flights.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/taliban-claim-capture-kandahar-grip-on-afghanistan-growsDÄS BÜGOUT 102! ie:
How not to look Pukka Sahib in retreat!!...again...:oops:

nikimcbee

08-13-21, 11:48 AM

Needs some with Afghan footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyIC-_eHSS0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc12SrT76FM

LOL, I see nanny big tech strikes again.

Rockstar

08-13-21, 12:04 PM

After the embassy debacle in Libya precautions must be taken. Reductions in embassy staff and closures are a must. But we just made a very public request to the Taliban to spare our embassy. IMO this is the Talibans moment of truth, do they have what it takes to be a legitimate government or just another embassy burning terrorist group? I think everyone including us are preparing to do business with them.

Jimbuna

08-13-21, 12:18 PM

Nato says it will support Afghanistan's government as much as possible.

“Our aim remains to support the Afghan government and security forces as much as possible. The security personnel is paramount,” Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said. “Nato will maintain our diplomatic presence in Kabul, and continue to adjust as necessary.”

He said that Nato - a powerful political and military alliance between 30 European and North American countries - was concerned about the high levels of violence caused by the Taliban’s offensive and reports of human rights abuses.

“The Taliban need to understand that they will not be recognised by the international community if they take the country by force. We remain committed to supporting a political solution to the conflict,” Mr Stoltenberg said.

So how do you define or explain what as much as possible. is/means?

Skybird

08-13-21, 12:38 PM

The withdrawel is not wrong - the change in mission objectives after the opening stage was wrong. The political expectations that got linked to the war were wrong. The end now is neither a surprise, nor was anything different to be expected. In 2006 I wrote a long essay, and in it I argued that one day that war would, after having been fought in a wrong fashion, necessarily end in exactly the way it ends now: by the Americans loosing interest in it and qickly slipping out, and every ally of theirs following them in their wake, and the country then soon returning to its previous state.

Another strategic defeat has been added to the by now impressingly long list of strategic defeats of the US since WWII. And as in the cases before: the defeat is politically caused, not by the military. The respnsiblke one is not Biden, he just made the right conclusions and puts Americans' interests first and just draws the inevitable consequences. The politicians messing up the mission two decades earlier by changing its objective to state building - these idiots are the ones responsible. The European puppies who obediently clapped hands and jumped on board of the floating boat, are responisble. If somebody wants to point fingers, point it not at Biden. Point it at Bush jr and Rumsfeld and Cheney. Two wars they launched. Two wars they strategically lost. Two wars they had illusions about and lied about.

Iraq is next. Will take quite some more years, but stability, democracy, inter-ethnical fairness and law and order, look differently. Turkey pokes its fingers into it. Iran pokes its fingers into it. The Kurdish are in it. The Pakistani mess with it. China comes into play. Russia is looking closely.

Just a question of time until Booom! and Woosh-out-everybody!

Rockstar

08-13-21, 02:06 PM

I’m not certain its another doom and gloom strategic defeat. We have twenty years experience in Afghanistan it’s not like we don’t know who the Taliban are. In fact because of the many factions I’d bet we developed some pretty good relations with some, and maybe not so good with others. We have established an embassy and thanks to an agreement with India have the strategic capability to impose ourselves upon the Taliban or what ever government Afghans choose to accept.

Russia banned the Taliban and Babushka is concerned about the security of their southern neighbors. China’s Communist dictatorship is scared to death of religion in general especially militant Islamist religious zealots who support Muslim Uyghur rebels. And the U.S.? Well we took the Taliban off our list of terrorist concerns years ago. So I’m thinking we’re ready to work with them, AGAIN. ;)

If the Taliban can’t show restraint we’ll lob a few more well placed drone strikes from India or a carrier strike group at or near top Taliban leadership until we find someone who will. Which reminds me of a story. At work I noticed a young Navy Enlisted lady in uniform walk into the store, I recognized her rating badge was a fire control tech. You could tell she the way she carried herself and wore that uniform she was dedicated. I asked what she does and she looked smiled and cooly said: “I drop warheads on foreheads” Laughing all I could say was “I’m sure as hell glad you’re on our side.”

And yes I know I could be completely wrong, just my .2 cents

Mr Quatro

08-13-21, 02:15 PM

Someone a made a mistake, but this is not time to blame. :o

Bring them home safe Lord :yep:

Otto Harkaman

08-13-21, 02:20 PM

mapuc

08-13-21, 03:05 PM

Skybird wrote
"But the pace at which the Taleban move the time back to pre 2001, is so breathtaking that even I am surprised."

Tells me that having modern weapon and trained soldier isn't enough the will to fight must be there, a will these Taliban seems to have a lot more of, than the Afghan army has.

Markus

Rockstar

08-13-21, 03:13 PM

mapuc

08-13-21, 03:35 PM

Now bear in mind this is just gossip. But there are a few blogs in India. Where someone suggested when we secretly left Bagram airbase. We indirectly armed the Taliban by leaving behind a weapons cache for them to loot before Afghan forces were aware of what happened.

Lol crazy times
Read that somewhere too that US forces had left some material behind some humvee and other things(can't remember what it was)

I was thinking Oh man are they such a hurry that they leave stuff behind, like they did in Dunkirk in WWII.

Markus

Otto Harkaman

08-13-21, 04:09 PM

Pak, Taliban & China: A new Axis of evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPfPCLQuZJc

Rockstar

08-13-21, 04:33 PM

I’ve read some articles which indicate Pakistan is very worried over how quickly the Taliban is sweeping through Afghanistan. They fear it might spur on the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan into reviving Islamic militancy within Pakistan’s own borders, threatening its internal security. Which I’m sure India and the U.S. wouldn’t mind so much because it would also destabilize the relationship between the Chicoms and Pakistan.

China condemns terror blast at Pakistan hotel hosting Chinese envoy…

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1221864.shtml

Skybird

08-13-21, 04:53 PM

Read that somewhere too that US forces had left some material behind some humvee and other things(can't remember what it was)

I was thinking Oh man are they such a hurry that they leave stuff behind, like they did in Dunkirk in WWII.

Markus

Report about the Germans. With the last air transport of theirs they did not fly out local workers that helped them, no: they flew out palettes with beer.

Those coworkers until this week had been left in hiding in safe houses and told they have to organise their flights themselves and pay them and only if thy goit Visas for Germany. Then the Visa tzhing wa sskipped, and sitllthey were not flown out. Now the Germans plan to charter two civilian airlifts later this month. For two thousand workers and their families.

The german girly playiung defenc enoniostress blame dit all oin th afghan giovenbrment and said they Afghans do not want to let them leave before they had been handed out Afghan passports.

When they are beign foudn and all killed, German oifficials will cry crodcodile tears and will hold sad speeches with powerful wordings and promise that the world will and mist learn from this.

The Germans. Always rules, always according to rules. Life can wait if there is no rule for it.

It makes me sick with anger. The garden gnome playing forieng monster now said he wants to speed up things with those two charter flights.

It seems he still has not figured out that two flights are not enough for 2000 people. Math problems at school?

Rockstar

08-13-21, 07:54 PM

So there I was thinking about the U.S. removing the Taliban from its terrorist watch list.

Then I thought, what about the E.U.? Feel free to check but I couldn’t find them on their list either.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/fight-against-terrorism/terrorist-list/

But Russia and China have them at the top of their list. I guess the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Hadn’t looked at the U. K. List yet.

em2nought

08-13-21, 08:57 PM

What a waste, again. We'll never learn. :/\\!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjzjhl-QztE

Jimbuna

08-14-21, 06:06 AM

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani said "consultations" were taking place on ending the conflict.

Taliban target province close to Kabul, with reports of fierce fighting.

The militants have now taken half of the 34 Afghan provincial capitals.

US troops now in Kabul will be able to airlift thousands of people a day, officials say.

European countries are also scrambling to get their nationals out of Afghanistan.

Fighting is also reported around the northern town of Mazar-e-Sharif, previously an anti-Taliban stronghold.

The UN says the situation is spinning out of control with devastating consequences for civilians.

Canadian officials have announced that they will expand a resettlement program to take in about 20,000 Afghan refugees.

Onkel Neal

08-14-21, 08:05 AM

Its noted corruption has played a large part in the Afghan government's inability to retain control of the country. I think we have to face up to our own corruption. We fail every time in nation building, we often try to impose a corrupt government on other people. Its because we have corrupt people in our leadership who look after their own self interest and what benefits they can reap out of these situations. Its not always money that is skimmed but perhaps an advancement in career (political, civil and military), not rocking the boat, going with the flow, suppressing actual facts of what is the real situation. Pursuing a fanciful outcome that doesn't have the remotest chance of being achieved.

Well said, my friend.

Building the Afghan security apparatus was one of the key parts of the Obama administration’s strategy as it sought to find a way to hand over security and leave nearly a decade ago. These efforts produced an army modeled in the image of the United States’ military, an Afghan institution that was supposed to outlast the American war.

But it will likely be gone before the United States is.

While the future of Afghanistan seems more and more uncertain, one thing is becoming exceedingly clear: The United States’ 20-year endeavor to rebuild Afghanistan’s military into a robust and independent fighting force has failed, and that failure is now playing out in real time as the country slips into Taliban control.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/world/asia/afghanistan-rapid-military-collapse.html

Thanks to billions of dollars of weapons left in Afghan, now the Taliban will be stronger than when they were driven out in 2002.

mapuc

08-14-21, 08:28 AM

Here is what one of my FB-friend wrote on his wall. He is also a Danish politician born in Syria

"Afghans "choose" medieval Islam - let them chose their own fate!

We entered Afghanistan to fight Al Qaeda and the Taliban after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. We also wanted to help the Afghans build a rule of law, freedom and rights. Now they "choose" medieval Islam.

As a Democrat, I want democracy all over the world - yes, I am a democracy / rule of law cultural imperialist. Why should anyone born in unfreedom? But the experiences of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, the Arab Spring - they will not be helped - despite our will, efforts and losses. And as the saying goes, the people have the leaders they deserve.

No, the Taliban were not actively elected, but neither were they fought wholeheartedly and effectively - by the Afghans themselves.
In the future, our task will be to defend our borders, protect our welfare society and fight for our own freedom
"

Markus

Mr Quatro

08-14-21, 09:27 AM

Now it's reported that the Taliban is executing prisoners that give up.

Taliban fighters execute 22 Afghan commandos as they try to surrender

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/13/asia/afghanistan-taliban-commandos-killed-intl-hnk/index.html

Plus the Taliban go village to village looking for unmarried women and forcing them to marry the Taliban troops and if they are not Muslims they become sex slaves.

I heard Biden wants to pay the Taliban to leave the US Embassy alone :haha:

mapuc

08-14-21, 10:08 AM

What kind of Afghanistan arise after the civil war ?

I know it will be a Islamic state with Islamic laws but beside that I don't know.

Markus

Skybird

08-14-21, 11:21 AM

There are Western politicians and media wonderign whether the Taleban want to show they are trustworthy diplomatioc partners by playing by the rules, or backwardly barbars.

They wonder and ask this quesiton seriously.

I also wonder. For example what planet these politicians and media have lived on in the past 30, 40 years. I mean they ask these questions seriously, not in a mood of sarcasm or black humour.

August

08-14-21, 11:28 AM

What kind of Afghanistan arise after the civil war ?

I know it will be a Islamic state with Islamic laws but beside that I don't know.

Markus

The same kind they had in the year 2000 apparently.

Jimbuna

08-14-21, 12:10 PM

Skybird

08-14-21, 02:17 PM

And then I saw this on TV today, an interview with a former Afghan commando fighter. He said this, and I try to quote by the German dub as precisely as I can remember:

"The Taleban advanced to our position and began shooting at us. So of course we surrendered and left our equipment and weapons to them."

I marked the words I have big issue with. In the TV snippet, the young man talked with great naturalness as if what he described was the most reasonable and natural and obvious thing to do. I was most perplexed and found his completely non-competitive attitude - well, surreal.

Zero fighting spirit, not the smallest hint of a mindset that he would even have considered to resist, to set up a fight. No sense of duty, commitment, nothing.

Many reports we get from Afghanistan that it is like this everywhere: the Taleban do not even need to fight much and break resistence. They show up and mostly the Afghan army units seem to immediately surrender. That there are storng ethnical and regional identity feelings and sentiments of people for certain regions and tribal origins, of course does not help if such people then get sent to regions they have zero roots in. By numbers, the army is around 300 thousand, the Taleban are said to be in the range of 70000 to 200000. Thwe Fghan army on aper is SUPERIOR, and has air dominance. Also, the afghan army got one and a half decade of Western training, and is superior in weaponry and platforms. And still the Taleban cut through the country like a hot knife cuts through soft butter.

This illustrates better than anything else what worth it has had to invest all those years and all that money into training and equipment. I mean we have had feedback from insiders and military advisors that moral and sense of committment is non-existent, that many recruits are social loosers and outcasts who already got chased away from their villages, and that one could not get this Afghan army to form a real disciplined and hardened fighting spirit. Western trainers have unofficially complained about it time and again. US ones. British ones. German ones.

To see this kind young man, a commando special soldier by his uniform emblems!, so innocently explaining why he thought it was the most natural thing to not set up a fight and just hand over his weapons and surrender, was - well, it was unreal. I was baffled.

Skybird

08-14-21, 02:26 PM

And this German general probably is spot on (quoted after Der Tagesspiegel):

Former Bundeswehr General Hans-Lothar Domröse believes NATO's mission in Afghanistan has failed. The “train, assist, advise” concept did not work, he said on Saturday on NDR Info. Although the Afghan army is well trained and equipped, it does not use its resources. The soldiers apparently don't know what they are fighting for, said Domröse. The question arises as to whether an Afghan state even exists or whether individual tribal princes ruled the country. In 2008, Domröse was Chief of Staff of the ISAF Security and Reconstruction Mission in Afghanistan under the command of US General David D. McKiernan.

Red markings by me, of course.

mapuc

08-14-21, 02:28 PM

Skybird

08-14-21, 03:32 PM

Skybird wrote

"Many reports we get from Afghanistan that it is like this everywhere: the Taleban do not even need to fight much and break resistence."

As my Danish friends wrote on his wall

"Afghans "choose" medieval Islam - let them chose their own fate!

Markus
Except the women and girls. They are not being asked and have no choice. They currently get slaughtered for the past 20 years.

mapuc

08-14-21, 03:42 PM

Except the women and girls. They are not being asked and have no choice. They currently get slaughtered for the past 20 years.

True I was merely thinking about the men in the Afghan army who seems to lack fighting will and that's why I translated what my friends wrote.

Markus

mapuc

08-14-21, 03:56 PM

Skybird

08-15-21, 04:54 AM

End game in Kabul. Its over.

Jimbuna

08-15-21, 05:31 AM

End game in Kabul. Its over.

It sure is.

Peaceful transfer of power to transitional government being prepared, acting interior minister says.

The Taliban orders its fighters to refrain from violence and allow safe passage for anyone wanting to leave.

Eyewitnesses say the militants met little resistance along the way to the capital.

US begins evacuating staff from its embassy in Kabul.

About 600 British troops are being deployed to help the departure of UK nationals and others.

The last major city in the north, Jalalabad, falls without a struggle.

US President Joe Biden defends decision to leave Afghanistan, saying he could not justify an "endless American presence"

3catcircus

08-15-21, 06:54 AM

It's interesting to follow our politicians and read what they have to say when it comes to Afghanistan.

One of them blame USA, UK, Denmark a.s.o. for Taliban is winning the civil war and it's USA, UK, Denmark a.s.o. fault Taliban became so strong.

Markus

You can't force a Jeffersonian democracy on a people that don't want it. The US wasted a trillion dollars and thousands of lives to be humiliated in this emergency evacuation. The only difference between this and the fall of Saigon is what kind of helicopters they're using to evacuate...

The generals/admirals, "intelligence" community, and politicians are too blame and they deserve all of that blame.

Jimbuna

08-15-21, 07:00 AM

'We await peaceful transfer of power' - Taliban spokesman
A Taliban spokesman has told the BBC's Yalda Hakim "there will be no revenge" on the people of Afghanistan.

"We assure the people in Afghanistan, particularly in the city of Kabul, that their properties, their lives are safe - there will be no revenge on anyone," Suhail Shaheen told the BBC.

"We are the servants of the people and of this country."

"Our leadership have instructed our forces to remain at the gate of Kabul - not to enter the city. We are awaiting a peaceful transfer of power."

He also said all Afghans would have participation in the Islamic government - meaning Afghans who are not Taliban would also be included.

What has the conflict cost the US and its allies?
As Washington poured in billions of dollars to fight the Taliban insurgency and fund reconstruction after invading in 2001, troop numbers went up.

Other countries were also part of the foreign military presence, but the US had by far the biggest single contingent - and racked up the largest bill.

Between 2010-12, when the US had more than 100,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, the cost of the war had reached almost $100bn a year, going by official figures.

One academic study, which looked at war costs in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, estimated the US had spent around $978bn since the 2001 (this includes money allocated for 2020).

The UK and Germany - which had the largest numbers of troops after the US - spent an estimated $30bn and $19bn respectively.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963

Jimbuna

08-15-21, 07:03 AM

Wise words from an American many will say.

The lesson is, sadly, clear. If you take America's side against religious fanatics, you are doomed as the next U.S. election probably will see a complete change of "policy" no matter what promises the previous one made and we will just pull out leaving you to face the consequences. Just ask the ARVIN rangers, marines and airborne troops and the mountain tribes in Nam who fought on our side. And you might also ask the Iraqis who saw Obama pull us out and then came ISIS. Or the Kurds who lost many thousands fighting ISIS only to be betrayed by Trump to the Sunni Islamist dictator of Turkey. In Nam the people we ditched fought on for several years---until they were wiped out. In Iraq, Iran stepped in with its Shia militias and we had to return to do battle. The plucky Kurds are still more or less OK---except with less territory under their control. What happens next in Afghanistan remains to be seen. Nice going Trump and Biden.

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-15-21, 08:14 AM

Kabul is rapidly becoming Saigon 2.0.

Skybird

08-15-21, 08:27 AM

How the pictures look alike.

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Skybird

08-15-21, 08:55 AM

Ghani has fled from Kabul.

Afghan state army is deserting everywhere, leaving uniforms and weapons behind.

mapuc

08-15-21, 09:43 AM

You can't force a Jeffersonian democracy on a people that don't want it. The US wasted a trillion dollars and thousands of lives to be humiliated in this emergency evacuation. The only difference between this and the fall of Saigon is what kind of helicopters they're using to evacuate...

The generals/admirals, "intelligence" community, and politicians are too blame and they deserve all of that blame.

Couldn't agree more-they don't want democracy

Secondly Afghanistan will be put on the same list as North Korea
A country you are not interested in having your vacation

Markus

Hawk66

08-15-21, 12:37 PM

I guess we should not make the mistake to call this "They do not want democracy". The majority of Afghans had no education, no chance to learn/think/reflect about democracy - most of them are indoctrinated from birth by fanatics or feudal "elders".

It is a complete other story what are the costs, in human lives, money and resources to change this. So it would be better to call this "We are not ready to pay the price to change such a system" - without any intention to judge this concerning morality....

3catcircus

08-15-21, 12:41 PM

Couldn't agree more-they don't want democracy

Secondly Afghanistan will be put on the same list as North Korea
A country you are not interested in having your vacation

Markus

"At least now, Afghan girls won't catch COVID in school..."
-The Biden CDC, probably.

Jimbuna

08-15-21, 01:19 PM

Ghani has fled from Kabul.

Afghan state army is deserting everywhere, leaving uniforms and weapons behind.

Afghanistan’s president Ashraf Ghani has reportedly left the country for Tajikistan after Taliban fighters entered Kabul and sought the surrender of the government.

Senior officials confirmed his departure on Sunday as the Taliban made further, swift gains in and around the capital.
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/central-asia/afghanistan-taliban-ashraf-ghani-flee-b1902917.html

mapuc

08-15-21, 02:38 PM

Less than a month to Sept. 11 and with Taliban back in charge. Only one thing to say about it:
USA and its allied has been humiliated

Markus

Skybird

08-15-21, 03:25 PM

I think its just a change of tactics, and I wouldnt want to be in the Talebans place, because they have been left behind to laugh themselves to death about the West.

mapuc

08-15-21, 03:46 PM

3catcircus

08-15-21, 03:49 PM

Yes Taliban got some state of the art weapon and weapon system.
Do they know how to use it ? To use some of these require training and exercise to master. I think most of these weapon system will be left where they stand.

Markus

Í would not be surprised if they manage to employ them. We tend to forget that as in all totalitarian regimes, those in charge have no problem getting *themselves* educated.

mapuc

08-15-21, 03:56 PM

Í would not be surprised if they manage to employ them. We tend to forget that as in all totalitarian regimes, those in charge have no problem getting *themselves* educated.

Maybe they will learn how to master some or most of these weapon system, but with every gear it break down. So they have to educate themselves in repairing these system too

Markus

3catcircus

08-15-21, 04:39 PM

Maybe they will learn how to master some or most of these weapon system, but with every gear it break down. So they have to educate themselves in repairing these system too

Markus

Iran is still flying F-14s the US sold them before the fall of the Shah...

Arlo

08-15-21, 06:57 PM

How many spare parts for them did they buy or are they cannibalizing to maintain an 'Air Force' of two or three?

3catcircus

08-15-21, 08:30 PM

How many spare parts for them did they buy or are they cannibalizing to maintain an 'Air Force' of two or three?

Enough...

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-iran-has-kept-its-aging-american-made-f-14-tomcats-flying-111786

Otto Harkaman

08-16-21, 05:50 AM

Skybird

08-16-21, 07:06 AM

^ I absolutely think the same.

Also, I think Biden is absolutely correct whe he said:
"One more year, or five more years, of US military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country."
When almost two decades of training and billions of investment do not make the army fight for the state whose uniform its soldiers wear - then why on Earth can anyone assume that another generation or two of Western soldiers staying there would make then the difference that it has not after 20 years? Wetsern trainers say since always that the training and the motivation and loyalty of Afghan recruits is a bad joke.

Also, Biden is against this war and sees it as stupid since at least 2010, if not earlier, as Richard Holbrook recalls. His memories of a meeting he had with Biden in 2010 and the rejecting words Biden had for Afghanistan, currently make the round in the German press. Biden'S decision now is no short cut, but marks the end point of a view he seems to have hold since at least a decade.

"I was the fourth President to preside over an American troop presence in Afghanistan -- two Republicans, two Democrats," Bidne just recently said. "I would not, and will not, pass this war onto a fifth."

Again, full points scored. I dont like Biden either, but he simply is right, and he takes it upon himself to just bear the anger of the world for this decision and the to be expected chaos it brings. Old man that he is, his time is ticking away anyway and he has nothing to lose. Maybe that is why he made this decision, and another younger one would have not. The latter would have had more too lose in career perspectives.

On the other hand Bidne recently said he could not imagien the Taleban to overrun the country after the withdrawl within the next 90 to 180 days. Either intel told him nonsense, or he ignored intel and thought he knew it better.

A holy saint he is not in all this. But by the end of the day I think the decision was necessary - and overdue. The mistakes making it necessary have been made by very other people many, many years ago. Not the withdrawel is wrong - the whole war, the chnage of msision 16 years ago were wrong.

China is the elephant in the room. The US cannot afford anymore to split its ressources on a million of big and small bases around the whole planet, most of them being undefendable against a detemined enemy on same eye level with the US. He who wants to keep and defend everything, will lose everything.

3catcircus

08-16-21, 07:59 AM

I don't like Biden but...

I think the real perpetrators of this whole debacle are Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld

https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/iUIwFlJ8ey8PAhSQd9p1cCocAWg=/800x570/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/MZG7PNOQJKCPOVX5WLFZ2R53FE.jpg
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56a146abb204d5878d6f125a/1588628735511-YHD39LHDRAA3JIC1B4CC/Timeline+of+U.S.+military+operations+in+Afghanista n.png

^ I absolutely think the same.

Also, I think Biden is absolutely correct whe he said:
"One more year, or five more years, of US military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country."
When almost two decades of training and billions of investment do not make the army fight for the state whose uniform its soldiers wear - then why on Earth can anyone assume that another generation or two of Western soldiers staying there would make then the difference that it has not after 20 years? Wetsern trainers say since always that the training and the motivation and loyalty of Afghan recruits is a bad joke.

Also, Biden is against this war and sees it as stupid since at least 2010, if not earlier, as Richard Holbrook recalls. His memories of a meeting he had with Biden in 2010 and the rejecting words Biden had for Afghanistan, currently make the round in the German press. Biden'S decision now is no short cut, but marks the end point of a view he seems to have hold since at least a decade.

"I was the fourth President to preside over an American troop presence in Afghanistan -- two Republicans, two Democrats," Bidne just recently said. "I would not, and will not, pass this war onto a fifth."

Again, full points scored. I dont like Biden either, but he simply is right, and he takes it upon himself to just bear the anger of the world for this decision and the to be expected chaos it brings. Old man that he is, his time is ticking away anyway and he has nothing to lose. Maybe that is why he made this decision, and another younger one would have not. The latter would have had more too lose in career perspectives.

On the other hand Bidne recently said he could not imagien the Taleban to overrun the country after the withdrawl within the next 90 to 180 days. Either intel told him nonsense, or he ignored intel and thought he knew it better.

A holy saint he is not in all this. But by the end of the day I think the decision was necessary - and overdue. The mistakes making it necessary have been made by very other people many, many years ago. Not the withdrawel is wrong - the whole war, the chnage of msision 16 years ago were wrong.

China is the elephant in the room. The US cannot afford anymore to split its ressources on a million of big and small bases around the whole planet, most of them being undefendable against a detemined enemy on same eye level with the US. He who wants to keep and defend everything, will lose everything.

You're both insane. Biden owns this disaster. Doesn't matter who or how we got into Afghanistan. When Trump negotiated the exit, Bagram was off-limits - keeping it open for US use. He negotiated a drawdown and exit that was going to be orderly and organized. Instead, that waterhead Biden and his entire staff are AWOL as desperate Afghanis fall to their deaths while clinging onto the landing gear of a fleeing C-17A stuffed with 800 people, and we have embassy staff evacuated via helo in an utterly chaotic situation.

Otto Harkaman

08-16-21, 08:40 AM

You're both insane.

“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”

Skybird

08-16-21, 08:42 AM

As the seeds, so the harvest.

Arlo

08-16-21, 08:52 AM

You're both insane. Biden owns this disaster. Doesn't matter who or how we got into Afghanistan. (Blah blah blah ... the greatness of Trump etc.etc.)

I'm sure the Kurds are just as big a fan of Trump as you are. Ahem. :shucks:

MaDef

08-16-21, 08:55 AM

You all seem to have forgotten the original reason for starting that war. As soon as Bin Laden was confirmed dead, the U.S. should have packed up and went home.