View Full Version : Afghanistan deadline
You all seem to have forgotten the original reason for starting that war. As soon as Bin Laden was confirmed dead, the U.S. should have packed up and went home.
Not to mention, but I will, that it didn't actually require an all out war to carry out that mission.
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 09:15 AM
You all seem to have forgotten the original reason for starting that war. As soon as Bin Laden was confirmed dead, the U.S. should have packed up and went home.
Bin Laden is/was not the only terrorist on the list. Not to mention the recruiting of individuals to terrorism is continually ongoing. The Taliban is always a presence as we see with the swiftness of taking over Afghanistan.
Bin Laden is/was not the only terrorist on the list. Not to mention the recruiting of individuals to terrorism is continually ongoing. The Taliban is always a presence as we see with the swiftness of taking over Afghanistan.
You seem to be acknowledging, however, that trying to fight a 'war on terrorism' accomplished nothing. In your estimate, are there fewer or more U.S. hating terrorists in the world? If more, what do you think caused that?
Did I remember it wrongfully !? I seem to recall that USA would assist the Afghan by bombing the enemy(Taliban)
If I'm correct, then my question is...has there been any bombings of Taliban groundforces ?
Markus
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 09:31 AM
You seem to be acknowledging, however, that trying to fight a 'war on terrorism' accomplished nothing. In your estimate, are there fewer or more U.S. hating terrorists in the world? If more, what do you think caused that?
How do you really know the war on terrorism has accomplished nothing? Do you really know what plans or people that have been stopped perpetrating mass killings, bombing and the like? If we don't really know then we can not state emphatically the war on terrorism was for nothing.
It was more than just a war on terrorism. The idea was to help Afghanistan establish their own government, military and economy. It is yet another failure as we have seen in Vietnam.
Certainly more hate the USA but we continue to send $$$ overseas like candy. Personally I think the USA should stop continually policing the world.
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 09:32 AM
Did I remember it wrongfully !? I seem to recall that USA would assist the Afghan by bombing the enemy(Taliban)
If I'm correct, then my question is...has there been any bombings of Taliban groundforces ?
Markus
The military was there to help against the Taliban and be a part of establishing a government, military and economy.
Otto Harkaman
08-16-21, 09:40 AM
I am not saying Biden doesn't own this total catastrophe.
I just don't see why Cheney and Rumsfeld, who were deeply involved in the Vietnam war, didn't figure out they were going to create the same debacle when they invaded Afghanistan.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/06/30/obituaries/30rumsfeld06/merlin_78568273_ee733ad4-a97f-4fe0-8e4e-eb44fae195cd-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp
Mr. Rumsfeld in 1975, when he was the White House chief of staff for President Gerald R. Ford. His deputy was Mr. Cheney, left
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/rtrngmq-e1489423242257.jpg
How do you really know the war on terrorism has accomplished nothing? Do you really know what plans or people that have been stopped perpetrating mass killings, bombing and the like? If we don't really know then we can not state emphatically the war on terrorism was for nothing.
It was more than just a war on terrorism. The idea was to help Afghanistan establish their own government, military and economy. It is yet another failure as we have seen in Vietnam.
Certainly more hate the USA but we continue to send $$$ overseas like candy. Personally I think the USA should stop continually policing the world.
Because 'not knowing' is a great answer?
Neither Vietnam nor Afghanistan were 'altruistic' wars. If you believe that, you bought into a simplistic form of propaganda (which involved a morphing 'mission statement', btw). If the U.S. would have focused on global aid in the form of food, technological advancement and disaster assistance without the 'bomb-a-matic' tactic the national treasury would be better off as well as the rest of the world and hate of the U.S. would have been reduced dramatically. :shucks:
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 09:41 AM
I am not saying Biden doesn't own this total catastrophe. I just don't see why Cheney and Rumsfeld, who were deeply involved in the Vietnam war, didn't figure out they were going to create the same debacle when they invaded Afghanistan.
Because in their mind it was a success. Much like Biden and Pelose paint this mess as a success. This is how politicians work.
Skybird
08-16-21, 09:42 AM
The military was there to help against the Taliban and be a part of establishing a government, military and economy.
Thats a half-truth, Warhawk. In the beginning it was only Enduring Freedom, and this operation was about enforcing the handing over of Osmama Bin Laden who enjoyed refuge by Mullah Omar and the Taleban. Bush demanded his handing over in his speech ten days after 9/11. The Taleban rejected that demand, and so the US started to strike them with assistance by the Northern Alliance. And that was the totality of goals of Enduring Freedom - not more.
So far, so good - I follow.
The things you list came later, in a later change of operational goals. And these changes are where the stupidity began. The political expectations were unrealistic and drawn by unknowing dillettantees who knew sh!t about Afghanistan (and Iraq, for that matter). Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz being the driving planning minds behind pushing America deeper and deeper into a black quagmire where it did not see, did not want to see, and did not want to learn why it should want to be able to see.
The military was there to help against the Taliban and be a part of establishing a government, military and economy.
I was talking about supporting the Afghan forces during American withdraw from Afghanistan. Not the US present during these 20 years.
Secondly
Saw something terrible on the news a few second ago. In this video clip you could see something falls from a Herkules airplane after its lift off. They host said it was a human.
Markus
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 09:46 AM
Because 'not knowing' is a great answer?
Neither Vietnam nor Afghanistan were 'altruistic' wars. If you believe that, you bought into a simplistic form of propaganda (which involved a morphing 'mission statement', btw). If the U.S. would have focused on global aid in the form of food, technological advancement and disaster assistance without the 'bomb-a-matic' tactic the national treasury would be better off as well as the rest of the world and hate of the U.S. would have been reduced dramatically. :shucks:
The Vietman war and Afghanistan are two very different times yet looking for the same outcome. There was no terrorist acts against the US in the 60's that precipitated a war. The war in Afghanistan there was and still threats present. It elicited a different response.
Concerning the bombings in Afghanistan, the terrorist knows one thing and one thing only. Weapons of war. Terror with bombs and chemicals. Arrive to the region with a tray of corn growing, some building materials and technological advancement was not the first call to action. You also assume that food, technological advancement and the like was not taken there. USAID spends plenty on these items all over the world. Even down to a skid of tooth bushes and paste.
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 09:48 AM
I was talking about supporting the Afghan forces during American withdraw from Afghanistan. Not the US present during these 20 years.
Secondly
Saw something terrible on the news a few second ago. In this video clip you could see something falls from a Herkules airplane after its lift off. They host said it was a human.
Markus
Gotcha. The questions remains....where the heck is the Afghan forces?
Yes, reports of people clinging to planes has been reported.
Gotcha. The questions remains....where the heck is the Afghan forces?
Yes, reports of people clinging to planes has been reported.
Found an English article about this falling to the death
Kabul Airport horror sees Afghans fall to their death after clinging to plane to escape
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1477429/Kabul-Airport-horror-Afghanistan-evacuation-latest-afghans-fall-from-plane-video-VN
Markus
Skybird
08-16-21, 09:58 AM
Gotcha. The questions remains....where the heck is the Afghan forces?
Where there is no grown identifying with a state, their is no loyalty to that state.
Thats why the trainign fo the Afghan government army probably was in vein froim beginning on. It does not identify with soemthign oike an Afgahn state and its giovernment. its just a job, and you do not want to loose your life just for a miserable wage.
Meanwhile, Germany. FOCUS writes:
While Kabul is being retaken, parts of the federal government are apparently busy with other tasks. Federal Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is at home in the Saarland to bake tarte flambée, while Ursula von der Leyen takes care of her horses. The President of the European Commission posted several photos on Instagram on Saturday in which she can be seen with horses. "I wish everyone a moment to take a deep breath and recharge," writes von der Leyen.
But not only Kramp-Karrenbauer and von der Leyern are busy elsewhere during Kabul's case with election campaign tour and horses: The most important military advisors of the Bundeswehr are also on vacation.
As "Business-Insider" reports, General Inspector (of the Bundeswehr) Eberhard Zorn and his office manager are only returning from their vacation this week. Instead of the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defense forming a situation center, nothing has happened since Friday.
German crisis management:
https://p6.focus.de/img/fotos/id_15864818/img-0724.jpg?im=Resize%3D%28630%2C952%29&hash=73d7ee9484745ac4727646047e25f535fb4e89bddf9e3 cb3df4b40959e3f57fe
https://p6.focus.de/img/fotos/id_15856946/bildschirmfoto-2021-08-16-um-15.10.06.png?im=Resize%3D%28630%2C678%29&hash=6f0091f21c12469868793123ea5793a7ff66aa9904842 c861aeba8c871e4a68b
The European league of superbarbies. Whats next? Cookie offensive for Kabul? Singing against Taleban?
Here in Denmark the Danish Prime minister has summoned various ministers for a meeting of the Foreign Board. These ministers were on holiday. This is due to the situation in Afghanistan.
Markus
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 10:09 AM
Found an English article about this falling to the death
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1477429/Kabul-Airport-horror-Afghanistan-evacuation-latest-afghans-fall-from-plane-video-VN
Markus
It is a dire situation for many. Specifically for women and your girls.
Skybird
08-16-21, 10:23 AM
Germany babbles about an air bridge to fly out 10,000 persons.
For this heroic task, the Luftwaffe got engaged. It sent - 1 Airbus A400M. One. After days, finally a single lonely plane. Well, better one than none. But aren't bridges meant to consist of at least two ends?
Which is not equipped with the missile defence system that was designed and planned for the A400M.
Just days ago the US offered Germany flights and assistance to get people out. The Germans - refused the offer. They had everything under control.
You also assume that food, technological advancement and the like was not taken there. USAID spends plenty on these items all over the world. Even down to a skid of tooth bushes and paste.
What made you think that? I'm very well aware of U.S. aid programs ... and the actions that totally undermine them. :shucks:
Guess I'm not the only one thinking how could the well trained and well equip army just give up so quickly to some not so well trained and equip.
Then I came to think of what Skybird wrote
"Where there is no grown identifying with a state, their is no loyalty to that state.
They are more loyal to their clan or family.
Markus
Aktungbby
08-16-21, 11:10 AM
Gotcha. The questions remains....where the heck is the Afghan forces?
https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2021/08/15/newnewap21227740995379_custom-c2480e936b4d8a0486b7881fce43c3e306c6e356-s1300-c85.webp I wonder if thes guys, in the hastily vacated presidential palace, will be nice to American puppet and retired Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, who is remaining in Kabul with with his three daughters...:hmmm:
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 11:28 AM
Guess I'm not the only one thinking how could the well trained and well equip army just give up so quickly to some not so well trained and equip.
Then I came to think of what Skybird wrote
"Where there is no grown identifying with a state, their is no loyalty to that state.
They are more loyal to their clan or family.
Markus
There is also a very well organized and armed Taliban. Let's figure in those that for cash look the other way and help the Taliban. In short, the Afghan army knows it is a losing battle.
Vector64
08-16-21, 11:30 AM
Never saw a government fall so fast as the afghan :o
Cyborg322
08-16-21, 11:54 AM
Guess I'm not the only one thinking how could the well trained and well equip army just give up so quickly to some not so well trained and equip.
Then I came to think of what Skybird wrote
"Where there is no grown identifying with a state, their is no loyalty to that state.
They are more loyal to their clan or family.
Markus
The Afghan army gave to so easily because the Taliban deal in deep psychological fear they are terrorist not just in name. They fear reprisals to themselves their families and even their contacts they know they are alone with no allies to help. Negotiating with the Taliban has proved to be useless how that was ever an option baffles me. The Taliban have won hands down both in military and political terms. There was no thought out exit plan and they are now benefitting from it. It is outrageous to say the very least. Now they have the means and finances to wreak havoc if they wish to do so
Simon
Today we woke to a new situation near the Middle East. A huge changes in Afghanistan and its neighbouring countries(yes they will be affected too)
A terror group has retaken their country.
Can we expect more terror in Europe/Middle East/world from now on ?
Markus
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 12:49 PM
Today we woke to a new situation near the Middle East. A huge changes in Afghanistan and its neighbouring countries(yes they will be affected too)
A terror group has retaken their country.
Can we expect more terror in Europe/Middle East/world from now on ?
Markus
You can bet the Taliban will look to Iraq next. And can also bet Europe is looking to ramp up alertness to possible terrorist attack.
Jimbuna
08-16-21, 01:03 PM
At least five people are reported killed at Kabul airport as Afghans flee following the Taliban's takeover of the country.
The Pentagon says all flights have now been halted after several incidents.
The US is also sending another 1,000 troops to help with the evacuation.
More than 60 countries have issued a joint statement calling on the Taliban to allow people to leave.
AVGWarhawk
08-16-21, 02:42 PM
More than 60 countries have issued a joint statement calling on the Taliban to allow people to leave.
Falling on deaf ears.
More than 60 countries have issued a joint statement calling on the Taliban to allow people to leave.
Any Muslim country among these 60 ?
Markus
Any Muslim country among these 60 ?
Markus
That's a pretty good question.
Aktungbby
08-16-21, 03:29 PM
Vector64!:salute:
Rockstar
08-16-21, 03:31 PM
More than 60 countries have issued a joint statement calling on the Taliban to allow people to leave.
They have been leaving in droves for years. Using MMC July 2020 stats there have been well over 600,000 people which left Afghanistan in the last couple of years probably close to a million by now. Most of whom are heading towards Turkey and Iran and I suspect a lot of those will if they haven’t already eventually find their way into the E.U. and Skybird’s hometown. Might be why Turkey is in country maybe trying to regulate the flow. That, and most people in the central Afghan highlands are ethnic minority Turk, mongol and one other I can’t remember.
https://mixedmigration.org/articles/destination-unknown-afghans-on-the-move-in-turkey/
Btw how did you like that picture showing the Taliban sporting those m4’s and m4a1’s? I thought they looked fairly new too.
Skybird
08-16-21, 03:42 PM
A German major who was on mission in Afghanistan 2011 since then operates a network for local helpers, since years, and being - or bette rhaving been - in contact with severla thpsuands of these. He was just on the Heut ehorunal braodcast, and I will link that when it goes on youtube in two or three hours. He said that there now is a ring of Taleban around the airport that is nto confronting the Wetsenr presence ther,e but its guarding against the city and that makes it impossible for anyone in the city to reach to the airport. He said that the sdafe houses the German had been running over the past weeks and months, all had been dissolced today because the Taleban systematically go from door to door searching for these safe houses and "traitors", killing them and their families. Our news over the past days said that several hundred people lived int hese safe hpouses. He said when he told them that it is no longer safe to stay and that they should dissapear into the surrounding population, these people were totally and competely shocked. He said the visa process was designed to never work, that the office was insufficjentzly equiopped, and that the protocpol demanded the visa request must be put in afghanbiostan, not form a refuge inba bordering coutnry, thats whzy these people, many hundreds, hid int hese safe houses in Kabul and stayed there for months, hoping in that the Germans would keep their promise. He said that in this morning his project office still had contact to 1500 Afghan helpers and their families. And indicated that now almost all communication links are dead.
The man is shaken. He was calm, self-controlled, a typical attitude that you often can see in prfessioanl soldiers, but his eyes were staring and kind of icy-cold, hard. Politeness and self-control forbid him to become rude in words, but I do not want to know what he really thinks about this biggest and most shameful failure of a german foreign ministry and minister ever in the history of the federal republic. That garden gnome always has been such a carricature of a diplomat, and made me sick on the day he took office. That man never talks. He lets sounds drip out of his sound-hatch, like air bubbles raise from underwater.
The German A400M over Kabul again is running out of fuel and cannot land.
By what that major said, the hope that more Afghan helpers can make it to the airport, seems to be hopeless. The Taleban have isolated the airport. There are only those Afghans inpolace who already are there. The people that are intended now - late - to get evacuated, cnanot reach the escape chance anymore.
There will be a hidden and silent massacre amongst some thousands if not tens of thousands.
There are no more women on the streets. All the preicous wodnerful acchievements the West boasted about - annihilated within one week as iof they never had been there. And the Taleban, after 20 years, back, and stronger than ever before.
Words fail to describe the illusions the West has had over the one top one and a half decade.
I also learned today the Americans made many concessions - and already under Trump - in meetings with the Taleban, while the Taleban gave none.
Biden apparently never was in favour of US interventionism, say the media at least. Seen this way he remains true to himself. But he will need to face rresponsibility for how this ends. Responsibility for havign created the mess in the frist will be needed to be accepted by his predecessors.
And he has one killer argument on his side:
"American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves."
There is no counterargument to this, and I have the strongest of sympathies for this reasoning.
The different levels of kinship groups provides the basis for identity and social order, and explain two key phenomena of tribal society. First, there is intense competition between kinship groups, with each seeking to maximise advantages for their group members. Second, groups may unite when faced by an external threat. These are both captured in the Arab saying, "I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I and my brother and my cousin against the world". This phenomenon engenders a natural suspicion and closing of rank against the "other", and intra-group reinforcing mechanisms, such as a preference for close intermarriage and assistance or favourable treatment to those within the group.Quoted from Chapter 2, pages 52-53 of "The Evolution of the Armed Forces of the United Arab Emirates" (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Evolution-Armed-Forces-United-Emirates/dp/1912866005) by Athol Yates, bold mine.
Although dealing with the UAE, it'll most likely be applicable to Afghanistan and it's tribal structure as well. Unlike the UAE, Afghanistan does not have a set of strong family groupings to hold things together from the center. Arguably it never has, even under it's former monarchy.
It should also explain that Western style democracy just won't work there or anywhere else in the Middle East and Central Asia - the local cultures are just too different.
Mike.:hmmm:
When it comes to us ordinary people discussing Afghanistan and the Afghan army I have read different reason to why why the army gave up without fighting.
Haven't heard any official reason to why. Here I'm thinking on our politicians in the West.
Markus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T1txBRoQxQ
Markus
Skybird
08-16-21, 05:59 PM
07:45 and following.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUs0FrrOwQc
"Nach meinem Kenntnisstand ist da nicht ein einziges Visaverfahren gelaufen."
"Failure is an orphan..."...
...particularly when your "parents" disown you...
Republicans delete webpage celebrating Trump’s deal with Taliban --
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rnc-trump-kabul-taliban-deal-b1903364.html
...or, maybe, that whole Trump 'peace in our time'-style agreement was just 'fake news'...
https://i.imgflip.com/1rf81n.jpg
<O>
Skybird
08-16-21, 07:12 PM
"Failure is an orphan..."...
...particularly when your "parents" disown you...
Republicans delete webpage celebrating Trump’s deal with Taliban --
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rnc-trump-kabul-taliban-deal-b1903364.html
...or, maybe, that whole Trump 'peace in our time'-style agreement was just 'fake news'...
https://i.imgflip.com/1rf81n.jpg
<O>
Done like a real Trump. In these times of uncertainty isnt it reassuring that some things and people do not change and stay true to their real inner nature? :shucks:
Rockstar
08-16-21, 07:29 PM
Can’t wait for Biden’s new September 11th withdrawal deadline to get here. It’s gonna be such a great celebration. Weeeeee
Rockstar
08-16-21, 07:49 PM
https://youtu.be/BErdXN14d_0
Can’t wait for Biden’s new September 11th withdrawal deadline to get here. It’s gonna be such a great celebration. Weeeeee
Naw, you seem to forget...
...by then, Trump will have been reinstated... :03: :har:
<O>
Yet another member of the "parent family" disowns the Orphan...
GOP Rep. Lauren Boebert slams Biden's Afghanistan withdrawal but voted against visas for Afghan partners last month --
https://www.businessinsider.com/lauren-boebert-slams-biden-kabul-evacuation-but-voted-against-aid-2021-8
<O>
les green01
08-16-21, 11:15 PM
blame game all around don't matter it happen on biden watch and look like he was caught with his pants down but the fly in the buttermilk is this it is on the Afghans number one coruption they choice money over everything and have the will to fight,thing is this crap didn't work in nam so why do the presidents keep trying the same crap over and over again guess the biggest thing is the Last US president that been in a war and been shot at was bush sr rest been draft dodgers or join the guard but honest every one in congress and president should have one of their kids in the military and not the guard and when they send the troops in their kids should be right on the line
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb0oBYkO--I
<O>
em2nought
08-17-21, 02:56 AM
thing is this crap didn't work in nam so why do the presidents keep trying the same crap over and over again
Don't worry, they're switching things up, and getting ready to go after white conservatives inside the USA instead. :03: Behold the new most serious threat facing our government. :hmmm: The only thing going for us is that they can't even beat cavemen after twenty years of fighting. At least, that's what it looks like to this unsophisticated minion. :D
Don't worry, they're switching things up, and getting ready to go after white conservatives inside the USA instead. :03: Behold the new most serious threat facing our government. :hmmm: The only thing going for us is that they can't even beat cavemen after twenty years of fighting. At least, that's what it looks like to this unsophisticated minion. :D
Wouldn't call it new, really. And 'going for us?' Are you an actual 'militia' member with weekly meetings and all where 'we only had one guy blow his own limb off this weekend!' earns another cheer besides 'lock him/her up' and 'hang ______' while planning the next 'tourist visit' to D.C.? Or will that turn out to be 'just a term' you used? :)
Skybird
08-17-21, 05:51 AM
I had to read twice to believe this.
German media report that an American transport had 640 Afghans aboard that were in parts pressed in by the Americans, in parts stormed the plane.
That is not what makes me swallow. What makes me swallow is those Germans again.
At the same time the Airbus of the Luftwaffe finally managed to land, and it had something on board that the germans are famous for. Lists and instructions. When the A400M, a quite huge plane I would say, I mean they call it a transport, not a Learjet, when that transport started again, it evacuated the record number of - seven people. Five Germans, a Dutch and an Afghan.
Because of those names on their list, only these were at the airport. Nobody had the idea - or the balls - to load the plane with oher people then. Well, it was night. The Afghans probably had all gone home for sleep. Maybe nobody was there who wanted to get out anymore.
It seems building airports and train stations are not the only things them Germans no longer can do.
Deutsche Pedanterie und Bräsigkeit. Shame.
The Germans have sent two more A400Ms. I wonder what for. At their carricature of planning, one Airbus is more than enough. The Taleban have tightened the outer ring around the airport. They seem to not want to move onto the perimeter, the Americans makke sure they won't. But the Taleban's blockade means nobody can reach the airport anymore.
300 or 400 German paratroopers and special commandos are on the ground, too. They are covered by US drones and communication options to call for US air support. Their original mission seems to have been to move through the city and pick up names from their precious tiny lists one by one and bring them to the airport. Its Kabul, its huge, its chaotic, its hostile, and full of Taleban. Have fun, guys. The list has all in all around 10 thousand names: local helpers and their families, German citizens and embassy staff.
Well, seven less now.
Its too late to get them out in big numbers. And I wonder whether that was intended. There are German national elections in septembre, and the migration crisis of 2015ff still echoes through the media. afghan migrants will become an issue - but please, not before the elections.
Jimbuna
08-17-21, 06:27 AM
US President Joe Biden defends decision to pull out of Afghanistan.
Biden admits events developed quicker than he thought and blames Afghan leaders for the collapse.
Afghans left behind are speaking of the terror on the ground.
Military flights evacuating diplomats and civilians have re-started at Kabul's airport.
Officials say it is a much quieter scene on Tuesday, but witnesses report occasional gunfire.
At least five people were reportedly killed at the airport on Monday as thousands tried to flee.
Some tried to cling on to planes - human remains were reportedly found in the wheel well of one US aircraft.
Jimbuna
08-17-21, 06:31 AM
There are unconfirmed reports that various members of the Afghan military plus tribesmen, local militias,etc. are organizing a resistance to the Taliban in some northern districts under the leadership of the son of the former Northern Alliance leader Massoud, who was murdered by the an Al Qaeda spy posing as a reporter just before 9/11. If this is so, we may see a new Northern Alliance spring up---probably supported by Russia ---as before.
Jimbuna
08-17-21, 06:34 AM
Hundreds of Afghans managed to get onto the half-open ramp of the US Air Force C-17 aircraft on Sunday as it left Kabul for Qatar, just hours after the Taliban took over the capital.
Instead of forcing them off, the crew decided to take off, according to US defence news website Defense One. Some 640 people were onboard the aircraft - among the largest numbers ever flown in a C-17.
Images on Monday showed people running to planes as they left the tarmac. The US army says soldiers shot two armed men, while three people are reported to have died after falling from the underside of a plane they were clinging to shortly after take-off.
https://i.postimg.cc/FH6TtG41/384a7297-b136-4c9b-8f99-8564a3479785.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Skybird
08-17-21, 07:26 AM
The quite left-leaning Süddeutsche Zeitung writes this, and I almost completely agree wit everything in it (doesnt happen often with the SZ):
Nobody will claim that US President Joe Biden did everything right in withdrawing American troops from Afghanistan. Not even he himself would. But just as wrong are those who now say that he did everything wrong. It is true that Biden's name will forever be associated with the inglorious end of the 20 year long war, with all the terrible images that are going around the world and will be remembered for a long time. But it's not just his fault. -
Four presidents have sat in the White House since 2001, two Republicans and two Democrats. George W. Bush started the war based on the 9/11 attacks, which will soon be the 20th anniversary. Even under his leadership it became clear that the USA would not win this war. Bush's successor Barack Obama couldn't bring himself to withdraw at first, just as he couldn't bring himself to do so much - by the way, although his Vice President Biden advised him to end his American engagement at the time. Then Obama decided to withdraw most of the combat troops by 2014, although the US Air Force and special forces continued to support Afghanistan's army. -
Obama, arguably the most intellectual US president in recent history, has often been a procrastinator. His successor Donald Trump, arguably the least intellectual US president in recent history, had agreed with the Taliban to withdraw American troops, but failed to negotiate any significant consideration in return. The main thing was just to get a deal - any deal. Trump had even promised to withdraw the troops by May 1st - Biden is right when he says that his predecessor's agreement left him little choice but to initiate the withdrawal. Trump had even promised to withdraw the troops by May 1. Biden then slowed the process down a bit, hoping to make a halfway orderly transition. This hope has not been fulfilled, on the contrary. It is a withdrawal accompanied by death and suffering, fear and anger, and for this Biden, as commander in chief of the armed forces, must take responsibility. -
When, after several days of silence, the president turned to the nation on Monday to justify his actions, he posed this question in the room: Why should US troops continue fighting a war that the Afghan troops apparently do not want to fight themselves ? -
On the one hand, it looked as if Biden, like a bad loser, was pointing his finger at an apparently unwilling army in order to shift the blame from itself. On the other hand, there is also something to it. The Americans worked hard to train the Afghan army. They invested billions of dollars and provided the equipment. The Afghan army and national police comprised 300,000 soldiers; they outnumbered the Taliban by more than four times. Could it really be expected that they would offer next to no resistance? -
Biden has been the White House's most experienced foreign policy maker for at least half a century. He saw the end of the Vietnam War as a young senator. Even so, he was told not to have learned anything from history. That's not true.
Precisely because of the experience from Vietnam, Biden had long been in favor of the trigger. He wanted and wants to recalibrate US foreign policy and focus more on the relationship with its major rivals China and Russia. He believes it has long played into the hands of these nations that the US invested gigantic resources in the Hindu Kush that were lacking elsewhere. -
There is no question that good arguments can be found for the trigger. The majority of US politicians in both parties have been in favor of this for years. It was no longer possible to convey to the American people that the country was waging a never-ending war on the other side of the world. Many supporters of Trump and Biden even agreed on this subject. The majority of people in the United States should therefore be in favor of Biden's approach. -
However, the way it was withdrawn is a complete disaster. Biden had decided on the symbolic date of September 11th by which he would bring the American troops home. He put himself under unnecessary time pressure, which the Taliban used mercilessly. It would have made sense to withdraw, in the course of which it is first ensured that the many Afghan aid workers are brought to safety. -
Herein lies the greatest failure of the United States, and with it Biden, too: that so many who stood on America's side are now being left in the lurch. On the one hand, this will shake the trust of current and potential future allies around the world. On the other hand, the USA's claim to leadership, at least in terms of self-perception, has always been a moral one. This has been forfeited for the time being.
Onkel Neal
08-17-21, 08:00 AM
On the one hand, it looked as if Biden, like a bad loser, was pointing his finger at an apparently unwilling army in order to shift the blame from itself. On the other hand, there is also something to it. The Americans worked hard to train the Afghan army. They invested billions of dollars and provided the equipment. The Afghan army and national police comprised 300,000 soldiers; they outnumbered the Taliban by more than four times. Could it really be expected that they would offer next to no resistance? -
Yeah, this isn't Biden's fault, it's not Trump's fault. It's the primitives in the general Afghan population who allowed this to happen. They had 20 years to learn how to run a civilized country and obviously they just aren't cut out for it. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They don't want it.
Biden has been the White House's most experienced foreign policy maker for at least half a century. He saw the end of the Vietnam War as a young senator. Even so, he was told not to have learned anything from history. That's not true.
Ha!:haha:
Robert Gates, who served as defense secretary for the Bush and Obama administrations, said in his memoir that Biden has "been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades."
Yeah, that's pretty obvious. Biden has always been a mediocre party hack and he has not improved with age.
Catfish
08-17-21, 08:04 AM
I had to read twice to believe this.
[...] when that transport started again, it evacuated the record number of - seven people. Five Germans, a Dutch and an Afghan.
To transport more than eight persons in Germany you would have needed a special license for transporting people, the Taliban probably demanded this :hmmm:
Yeah, this isn't Biden's fault, it's not Trump's fault. It's the primitives in the general Afghan population who allowed this to happen. They had 20 years to learn how to run a civilized country and obviously they just aren't cut out for it. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They don't want it.
What an ignorant thing to say. :doh:
Onkel Neal
08-17-21, 08:16 AM
What an ignorant thing to say. :doh:
Sorry, but it's true. :haha:
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 08:22 AM
US President Joe Biden defends decision to pull out of Afghanistan.
Biden admits events developed quicker than he thought and blames Afghan leaders for the collapse.
Afghans left behind are speaking of the terror on the ground.
Military flights evacuating diplomats and civilians have re-started at Kabul's airport.
Officials say it is a much quieter scene on Tuesday, but witnesses report occasional gunfire.
At least five people were reportedly killed at the airport on Monday as thousands tried to flee.
Some tried to cling on to planes - human remains were reportedly found in the wheel well of one US aircraft.
Biden forgot to run a "what if" scenario. Then again, Biden forgets a lot. However, he never put any blame on himself. I'm sure in the coming weeks it will be painted as an orderly evacuations that simply got out of hand.
Skybird
08-17-21, 08:25 AM
A strong picture. Look at the expression on the Afghan man's face.
https://i.postimg.cc/jdc3PyHb/Unbenannt.png (https://postimages.org/)
Neal, it was naive to pump all that much money into Afghanistan, and to pay all those local warlords. They took the money - and then? Regional warlords did not use it to build infrastructure and schools, but kept it for themselves, and build palaces for themselves. And the last "president" is said to have fled from kabul in a helicopter packed full with - money.
And yes. One can argue that Afghanistan is not a country, not a nation. The lack of feeling a national identity and a resulting sense of loyalty, as was to be seen in the Afghan army, speaks volumes. Its a tribal society. "Nation" plays no role there. The influence and power of any government in Kabul, since I was at school, always ended at the city walls.
-
Biden must accept technical responsiblity for the circumstances of the situation now. The time pressure he was under, is Trump's work, Trump and his damn shallow careless "deals". The mess in all completeness is the work of four different administrations, all of them tapped blindly around in the Afghan maze. The only illumination was the shine of their enlightened illusions.
And yes. One can argue that Afghanistan is not a country, not a nation. The lack of feeling a national identity and a resulting sense of loyalty, as was to be seen in the Afghan army, speaks volumes. Its a tribal society. "Nation" plays no role there. The influence and power of any government in Kabul, since I was at school, always ended at the city walls.
This, exactly.
EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?
Buddahaid
08-17-21, 08:47 AM
Biden forgot to run a "what if" scenario. Then again, Biden forgets a lot. However, he never put any blame on himself. I'm sure in the coming weeks it will be painted as an orderly evacuations that simply got out of hand.
Right and the pullout deal he negotiated putting a hard date on withdrawal was obviously badly done, oh wait, that was the former dealmaker in office.
This, exactly.
EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?
Ditto.:Kaleun_Applaud:
The more curiosity has led me to study the Middle East, the more I've come to the conclusion it would be best to leave the inhabitants to their own devices. The only way change is going to occur is for it to happen from within the confines of the various local cultures. The West sticking it's nose in, for whatever reason, doesn't help bring about that change in any lasting way.
Mike.
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 08:59 AM
Yeah, this isn't Biden's fault, it's not Trump's fault. It's the primitives in the general Afghan population who allowed this to happen. They had 20 years to learn how to run a civilized country and obviously they just aren't cut out for it. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They don't want it.
Yeah, that's pretty obvious. Biden has always been a mediocre party hack and he has not improved with age.
I agree on the no fault zone for Trump and Biden. But, Biden should have conducted a "what if" scenario. Biden owns the disaster created in under 48 hours. As far as cut out for it, the Taliban is a well organized and equipped group. Afghan military recognized this as well as the locals. It would be all out fighting once again. And a losing battle at that. The Taliban was simply working the past 20 years for this day.
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 09:04 AM
Right and the pullout deal he negotiated putting a hard date on withdrawal was obviously badly done, oh wait, that was the former dealmaker in office.
Sure it was badly done. You and I recognize it. The current commander and chief who is swift with a pen and executive orders, tops in foreign relations as we were sold could not let the date pass? Could not have recognized this is an issue with a firm date and simply say we are staying a bit longer we like the culture? We will get back to you with a firm removal date....maybe but keep quietly removing US personnel?
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 09:11 AM
This, exactly.
EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?
Damn fine point. Excellent question. It will take a generation or two to change a mind set.
Skybird
08-17-21, 09:28 AM
This, exactly.
EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?
Yes.
However, most people living in Afganistan, are females. At least I seem to recall that females form a small majority. However, there are MANY girls and women. They do not get asked on anything.
I think its simply a hellhole to live in, to be honest.
Skybird
08-17-21, 09:30 AM
Damn fine point. Excellent question. It will take a generation or two to change a mind set.
Longer, much longer. Its Islam as well as old patriarchalism you are up against. Both together are a monumental formation.
Buddahaid
08-17-21, 09:39 AM
Sure it was badly done. You and I recognize it. The current commander and chief who is swift with a pen and executive orders, tops in foreign relations as we were sold could not let the date pass? Could not have recognized this is an issue with a firm date and simply say we are staying a bit longer we like the culture? We will get back to you with a firm removal date....maybe but keep quietly removing US personnel?
Since May 1st was the deadline it was stalled considerably.
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 09:45 AM
Yes.
However, most people living in Afganistan, are females. At least I seem to recall that females form a small majority. However, there are MANY girls and women. They do not get asked on anything.
I think its simply a hellhole to live in, to be honest.
But females don't matter in this region.
les green01
08-17-21, 10:45 AM
maybe they should have put the women on the lines they probly got bigger balls than the men maybe they would have put a fight up because they going go right back how it was,some of congress from both parties was telling biden they needed get going getting cilvians and allies out they was met with a close door while biden sit in the chair and jack off could trump done it better i doubt it but biden in the office now it was his call his screw up
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 10:47 AM
Since May 1st was the deadline it was stalled considerably.
Well, look at as we may, Biden last month said this would not happen(helicopters evacuating people off a roof top). :hmmm:
Onkel Neal
08-17-21, 11:28 AM
Longer, much longer. Its Islam as well as old patriarchalism you are up against. Both together are a monumental formation.
Oh yeah, much longer. We won't live to see it.
Well, look at as we may, Biden last month said this would not happen(helicopters evacuating people off a roof top). :hmmm:
Well, that's just an extension of our political stupidity. I'm willing to bet the last 3 presidents would have said the same thing and been just as wrong.
Someone wrote about a group in northern Afghanistan who had started to fight the Taliban and they would most likely get support from Russia.
Hmm and China making agreement with Taliban....sometimes my imagination runs berserk.
Markus
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 11:53 AM
Oh yeah, much longer. We won't live to see it.
Well, that's just an extension of our political stupidity. I'm willing to bet the last 3 presidents would have said the same thing and been just as wrong.
What gets me is the selling of Biden as a foreign relations expert. It was done with Obama and during the last election. We would expect better if that was th case.
Buddahaid
08-17-21, 12:01 PM
What gets me is the selling of Biden as a foreign relations expert. It was done with Obama and during the last election. We would expect better if that was th case.
You left out Bush and Trump.
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 12:02 PM
You left out Bush and Trump.
Bush and Trump did not state they are foreign relations experts.
On the radio news I heard what could have been the reason to why the Afghan army gave up.
that they did not always get paid, that they were often hungry for several days, that the government ran away because they only sat there for their own gain, and thus have failed both soldiers and population?.
This can't be right I saw and heard Biden saying
We payed soldiers monthly wages
Markus
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 12:22 PM
On the radio news I heard what could have been the reason to why the Afghan army gave up.
that they did not always get paid, that they were often hungry for several days, that the government ran away because they only sat there for their own gain, and thus have failed both soldiers and population?.
This can't be right I saw and heard Biden saying
We payed soldiers monthly wages
Markus
They gave up for a reason. More than likely the Taliban will pay much more than what the Afghan government is paying. It will come out in the wash before long.
Buddahaid
08-17-21, 12:28 PM
Bush and Trump did not state they are foreign relations experts.
Even if they didn't (I'm pretty sure Trump must have said he knows more about it than anyone else), they are still responsible for their part in the making of this mess.
AVGWarhawk
08-17-21, 12:35 PM
Even if they didn't (I'm pretty sure Trump must have said he knows more about it than anyone else), they are still responsible for their part in the making of this mess.
Pretty sure? That does not sound like the Buddahaid I know! Anyway, sure both had their hand in it but when the final switch is pulled I think the person at the switch should have looked at every avenue and possible scenario that could go wrong. Again, the Biden has been in one form or another in the game for 40 plus years. As Biden likes to say. "Come on man".
Bush and Trump did not state they are foreign relations experts.
Not only did they not make such a boast i'd bet that both of them would have had a better plan in place to deal with the situation and to heck with the optics, (well Trump would anyway, not so sure about W).
Because if you get right down to it all those civilians will now die because of "optics". To begin pulling their at-risk civilians out while there was still time to do so just wouldn't have been showing the proper confidence in the Afghani puppet government . Because of those optics our government wouldn't do anything at all before it became publicly obvious that the government would collapse and now it's too late for many of them.
I seem to recall bringing up this issue here last winter and I was assured by some that the Biden administration had a plan but I guess the real plan was to hide out on vacation and do nothing except point fingers at others while the chips (and bodies) fall where they may.
Even if they didn't (I'm pretty sure Trump must have said he knows more about it than anyone else), they are still responsible for their part in the making of this mess.
According to your president everyone is to blame but him.
Buddahaid
08-17-21, 01:19 PM
Somehow the words Trump and plan don't go together very well but that's just an opinion.
Guess we will be witness to mass slaughter in Afghanistan the next few years ahead.
Markus
Rockstar
08-17-21, 01:34 PM
A Big Money Funneling Operation” — Afghanistan Vet Reflects On Withdrawal Of US Forces
https://mtracey.substack.com/p/a-big-money-funneling-operation-afghanistan
On July 21 — just three weeks ago — Gen. Mark Milley, Biden’s Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, conceded that “there’s a possibility of a complete Taliban takeover, or the possibility of any number of other scenario,” yet insisted: “the Afghan Security Forces have the capacity to sufficiently fight and defend their country.”
The U.S. Government Lied For Two Decades About Afghanistan
Using the same deceitful tactics they pioneered in Vietnam, U.S. political and military officials repeatedly misled the country about the prospects for success in Afghanistan.
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-us-government-lied-for-two-decades
https://youtu.be/a4vqwxtnsww
https://youtu.be/LTRnuB4u8jk
Comments
No love lost for the everyone’s darling white rage Miley
Al 22 hr ago
In my deployments to Afghanistan, the uselessness of the Afghan National Army (ANA) and the Afghan National Police (ANP) was broadly known - it was an in the open secret. The ANA were buffoonish, more closely identified with Keystone Cops then as a classic military organization. Organizing them was like herding cats. Posting them on perimeter would have them watching out for about three minutes before they’d look inside to see what we were doing. And the ANP were corrupt as well, possibly more useless, if it’s possible, then the ANA. The one organization that performed were the ANSF. Those guys were serious. But so few.
Bottom line, everyone, right down to privates in the army knew that what we’re seeing now was inevitable, 10, 20, 50 or 100 years of occupation and training didn’t matter. It was and has always been a playground for up and coming generals to earn their bones and their next position. I mean, what sort of officer hasn’t commanded men in combat, right? Can’t be the next Patton if you don’t have a war.
They all knew. Miley knew for sure because he’s detestable, more so then most generals, a very small minority of which are actually dedicated to the art of war instead of self aggrandizement.
It’s all coming to head now. The Talibans super fast takeover is surprising, but not by that much. The house of cards that the elites have built are all falling down. Trump, was elected and even if you rightly claim he was a turd, his administration looks as well run as FDRs in WWII compared to eight months of Biden’s dream team of heavily credentialed morons. Didn’t Miley say that our biggest threat was climate change? Good thing that asshat had his eye on the ball, right?
COVID, Climate Change, Afghanistan, the border, have all exposed our pedigreed elites as likely the most incompetent boobs on this great earth. Dare I say we could randomly pick from the whole of the adult population regular folks that would do much better.
But you wouldn’t know it because the media is acting as the arm of government and SM ensures that the Tik Tok generation stays focused on practicing those tomorrow’s dance moves - as someone said here on Substack - LARPING their way through life.
When ole Ike Eisenhower left office he read a speech to the poker and warned us all about the power the government was about to create to fight the Soviets. He warned us then, in 1961, that there was a good chance the bureaucracy, science, and private industries would grow so powerful as to supplant civilian control of government.
Indeed, Ike. Indeed.
Somehow the words Trump and plan don't go together very well but that's just an opinion.
Well as I recall from our previous discussion on the subject last winter there was such a plan in the works but I do not know the details. Regardless though, Biden has had months in the CiCs chair to prepare for this and it's painfully obvious that he did absolutely nothing at all. He is totally reactive including sending troops back over there after pulling them out.
He's like a modern day Jimmy Carter, another long term professional Legislator who couldn't handle being an Executive. There's a big difference between the two and Biden is just the latest example.
Onkel Neal
08-17-21, 01:52 PM
Im pretty sure Trump must have said he knows more about it than anyone else.
Haha, that's a safe bet. He said that about everything
Jeff-Groves
08-17-21, 02:11 PM
Are you Guys kidding me? There's not a one of us that Didn't KNOW from the get go going into Afghanistan was a Bad Idea and would end up just like the Russian pull out!
:nope:
Are you Guys kidding me? There's not a one of us that Didn't KNOW from the get go going into Afghanistan was a Bad Idea and would end up just like the Russian pull out!
:nope:
Maybe not, but they should have studied history and learned that even UK failed to conquer Afghanistan and there has been other countries who did the same tried to conquer Afghanistan.
Markus
Skybird
08-17-21, 02:35 PM
On a side-note, the Taleban have become one of the best equipped most modern armed Islamic militias on the planet.
Blackhawks, US gunships, "ScanEagle" drones by Boeing including their operations kits, I read. 600 M1117s, 8500 Hummvees, 150 MaxxPro. 1 million pieces in pistols and rifles, 1 bn rounds of ammo. German Marder IFVs , armoured transports of the types Dingo and Eagle, several Panzerhaubitze 2000 (one of the two or three most modern howitzer in the world, that thing is really nasty), 1000 pieces of tanks and armoured vehicles and IFVs of Russian construction, Russian transport and Russian gunship helicopters, including Hi-24. Almost 70 light attack helcioters "Defender 500".
I read their military power excceeds that of several of the smaller NATO countries.
The loss of the US drones is a real head-nut. Not only will they try to lure the trained Afghan army operators back into service, but they could also sell the technology.
There is also a risk that they sell these weapons to other international Islamic militias or terror groups.
It remains to be seen how clever Afghan engineers are in keepign such platforms operaitonal. The small educated middle class Afghan society has may have skilled people capable of finding improvisations to keep stuff in servcie for years to come, but htis social class and the Taleban are not the closest of friends. It doe snto comparing to Iran, where the talent for engineering improvisation and even own developmnent is much wider sporead and the acadmeic elites of the middle class and the radicals are not realy close, but at elats closer than those to be found ion Afghanistan.The situation in Iran with its educaiton levels and social clusters I can assess from own experience twenty years ago (and it might have changed since then), on Afghanistan I must guess. As somebody said two days ago, the irnaisn still manage to keep their 20-40 Tomcats not just in the air, but operational. They flew escorts for Russian bombers to Syria some years ago.
^ If they learn how to use these weapons or get former soldier from the Afghan army to operate them they could invade some neighbour country.
Markus
Rockstar
08-17-21, 03:44 PM
You’re right it should not have been a surprise. In fact I’d bet a lot of what might be happening is just fine with a lot of western leaders. China and Pakistan have had a very kozy relationship for sometime now and as we all know that can’t be allowed. :)
The Taliban swept through Afghanistan quickly, and like I said earlier. Pakistan is extremely worried about that. Because it may embolden the Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP) to start an uprising with in Pakistan. They already claimed responsibility for bombings near Chinese representatives visiting Pakistan. TTP leaders have in the past publicly stated their destiny is to establish an Islamic caliphate in Pakistan and that would require the overthrow of the Pakistani Government. Now the Pashto Taliban are as some of you are coming to find out better equipped with American steel. Yes indeed I bet this has Pakistan very worried and China should be worried as well.
And it should have everyone here a little worried too because I think the last thing any of us want is Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal falling into the hands of the Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan.
Will be interesting to see if Pakistan and China are forced to engage in conflict against these now well armed Taliban fighters. Especially after what China has been doing to the Muslim Uyghurs. I’m thinking it might go hot inside China yet.
Skybird
08-17-21, 03:52 PM
Not so long time ago:
https://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/china-afghanistan-107~_v-videowebm.jpg
The Taleban play it clever this time. Social media, radio propaganda, female interviewer, talking of women's rights, no revenge acts wanted - all the right buttons are being pushed.
Just that we have reports from the provinces that there they act exactly the opposite way. Slaying women and girls, executing "traitor".
Still, their faction seems to have become a bit more diverse over the past 20 years.
We should stay away nevertheless.
China has masisvely reinforced its military along the 70-80 km long shared border, which is extremelly rugged terrain and mountain passes at high altitude. I am very certain that china will do all it can to not get drawn into a military adventure in Afghanistan, however. They fear infiltration, they do not prepare invasion.
Skybird
08-17-21, 04:04 PM
At least the Germans come into swing now. Finally. Second shuttle flight got 140 out, two more flights are under way. Thats a solid quota, the cargo bay of an A400M is 17.5 x 4 m, roughly 70 sqm. 2 people per sqm. They can hardly lay the people over each other in layers.
Rockstar
08-17-21, 04:15 PM
Central Asian jihadists have been flexing their muscle, anti-China jihadists have attacked Chinese personal in Pakistan, more regional violence is extremely plausible — the threat is ongoing, and we are just talking about an escalation from this point onwards,” Mir said. The collapse of the Afghan republic following the U.S. departure would have regional significance like the post-9/11 invasion, or the withdrawal of Soviet troops and fall of the communist regime they’d backed. “This is a seismic shift that will change politics in this part of the world in ways” hard to foresee.
Expect the immediate danger to be regional — in South and Central Asia — as geography and capability limit the initial damage. Chinese interests in Pakistan have already taken a hit. In April, a car bomb exploded at a luxury hotel hosting Beijing’s ambassador in Quetta, not far from Taliban strongholds in southern Afghanistan. The attack was claimed by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, or the Pakistani Taliban, a loosely organized terrorist group with ties to al-Qaeda, based along the vast Afghan-Pakistan border.
Last month, a bomb blast on a bus traveling to a dam and hydro-electric project in Dasu, near the Pakistan border with China, killed 12 people, including nine Chinese citizens. No one has claimed responsibility, but Beijing was so concerned that it hosted Taliban representatives for a meeting with Foreign Minister Wang Yi. At stake is $60 billion in projects in the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, a crucial part of President Xi Jinping’s wider Belt and Road Initiative, along with significant Chinese mining interests inside Afghanistan.
While this wasn’t the Taliban’s first visit to China, the seniority of the Chinese representatives was unprecedented, as was the very public message that Beijing recognizes the group as a legitimate political force, Yun Sun, the Stimson Center think tank’s China program director, noted last week in an essay on the national security platform, War on the Rocks. After posing for photographs with the group’s co-founder and deputy leader Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, Wang described the Taliban as “a crucial military and political force in Afghanistan that is expected to play an important role in the peace, reconciliation, and reconstruction process of the country.”
What Beijing wants in return is for the Taliban to live up to a commitment to sever all ties with terrorist organizations, including the TTP and the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (an outfit Beijing blames for unrest in its Xinjiang region that Washington removed from its list of terror groups in October after finding there was no credible evidence it continues to exist.) Any further attacks on Chinese nationals working in South Asia, whether claimed by the Taliban or others operating with its blessing, will no doubt impact future ties, though it’s unclear what China would do in retaliation.
By taking the Taliban off our terrorist watch list. It allows us to look upon them as freedom fighters and fund and equip them so they can be a thorn in China’s side.
Skybird
08-17-21, 05:45 PM
. It allows us to look upon them as freedom fighters and fund and equip them
Has just been accomplished. :D
Rockstar
08-17-21, 07:02 PM
There is an estimated 3 trillion dollars worth of mineral wealth buried in Afghanistan. I kinda think we actually gave it shot to install and support a stable regime which would allow us to extract it and bring Afghanistan a little closer to the 21st century. It could possibly have been a win win for everyone. Unfortunately nobody in Afghanistan seemed interested or assisted in those goals and having already spent two trillion dollars trying, we just cut our loses.
That’s my take on it. Now it’s a matter of funding the terrorists err I mean the freedom fighters and go after Pakistan and China BRI.
It was a poorly executed plan which had no exit strategy to begin with. Pulling the plug was always going to result in the only end game left. If only there was a lesson from history that Rummy and Cheney would have had at their disposal .... oh wait ... :shucks:
Buddahaid
08-17-21, 09:43 PM
Maybe Iran and Pakistan will be compelled to step up to protect their borders now. They have only one other major choice outside of pleading for help. Am I wrong?
Aktungbby
08-17-21, 10:26 PM
...That’s my take on it. Now it’s a matter of funding the terrorists err I mean the freedom fighters and go after Pakistan and China BRI.We'll make another movie about this, starring Tom Hanks; and call it Charlie Rockstar's War:O:
Unconfirmed reports are trickling in that the Northern Alliance has started a counter offensive against the Taliban and have already recaptured areas north of Kabul. :hmmm:
Catfish
08-18-21, 02:32 AM
"Taliban vow to respect women, despite history of oppression"
https://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-kabul-1d4b052ccef113adc8dc94f965ff23c7
"The Taliban knocked on her door 3 times. The fourth time, they killed her"
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
https://i.imgur.com/HyTWxtol.jpg
Imagine standing in this room and having a few grenades at your belt.
Buddahaid
08-18-21, 02:35 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y
Skybird
08-18-21, 06:28 AM
Good, balanced comment by the BBC. Packs it all together in a compact format.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58252174
Jimbuna
08-18-21, 08:56 AM
'Northern Alliance' flag hoisted in Panjshir in first resistance against Taliban
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/-northern-alliance-flag-hoisted-in-panjshir-in-first-sign-of-resistance-against-taliban-101629215342032.html
Skybird
08-18-21, 11:14 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEz48C6sSek
Use autotranslate, maybe.
The stupid babbling of the current political personnel is an affront to the thinking mind.
Schmidt being the exception.
Jimbuna
08-18-21, 01:00 PM
Flag-waving protesters defy the Taliban, prompting shots in the city of Jalalabad where one person was killed.
President Ashraf Ghani - who fled as the Taliban were approaching - is now in the United Arab Emirates.
Taliban leaders are expected in Kabul after they arrived in Kandahar from exile on Tuesday.
The leader of the Taliban-linked Haqqani Network meets former President Hamid Karzai.
Western countries continue evacuating nations and Afghans who worked for them.
But reports say Afghans have been beaten by Taliban guards on their way to the airport.
The UK parliament holds an emergency debate on Afghanistan.
Militants are out in force manning checkpoints across the city.
Skybird
08-18-21, 03:21 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-conflict-future-exclusive-idAFKBN2FJ1LA
“There will be no democratic system at all because it does not have any base in our country,” he said. “We will not discuss what type of political system should we apply in Afghanistan because it is clear. It is sharia law and that is it.”
(...)
“We have contact with many pilots,” he said. “And we have asked them to come and join, join their brothers, their government. We called many of them and are in search of (others’) numbers to call them and invite them to their jobs.”
Earlier today the Swedish minister for Foreign Affairs demanded that the Taliban continued the democracy process and give the girls and women freedom to chose their own path.
They are Taliban and they rule by Sharia.
Markus
Skybird
08-18-21, 03:54 PM
Yeah, I'm certain the Taleban just waited for some European garden gnomes directing demands at them so that they know what to do and where to go. Sure. :D Maybe we should send them the EU's holy Rumpoy, although that might be against the Geneva convention: there is a risk that the Taleban laugh themselves to death on his arrival.
It will be a terror regime that's for sure.
Derailing the thread a little
Last time the Taliban was in charge the percentage of narko export fell from hundrede of thousands kilo per year down to around 1-2 %
After the invasion the export exploded, never had so many tons narko left Afghanistan during this 20 years occupation.
Now when the Taliban is back how much will this type of export go down.
Markus
It will be a terror regime that's for sure.
Derailing the thread a little
Last time the Taliban was in charge the percentage of narko export fell from hundrede of thousands kilo per year down to around 1-2 %
After the invasion the export exploded, never had so many tons narko left Afghanistan during this 20 years occupation.
Now when the Taliban is back how much will this type of export go down.
Markus
Considering the money it makes, I doubt the Taliwhackers are going to stop or even slow the flow.
Rockstar
08-18-21, 04:49 PM
It will be a terror regime that's for sure.
Derailing the thread a little
Last time the Taliban was in charge the percentage of narko export fell from hundrede of thousands kilo per year down to around 1-2 %
After the invasion the export exploded, never had so many tons narko left Afghanistan during this 20 years occupation.
Now when the Taliban is back how much will this type of export go down.
Markus
Having only a feeble understanding of the history of the Taliban I’d say there’s a pretty good chance the drug trade will fall off again.
When the Soviets were in Afghanistan they couldn’t tell an enemy combatant from a dirt farmer. So they started shooting at every one, it was genocide. The Mujahideen remained behind to fight and the women and children fled to refugee camps in Pakistan.
Many of these children were sent to Islamic madrasa. There they were educated in the Koran, Shria law and some say even military tactics in order to fulfill their destiny. Being Islamic schools they left believing they had a mandate to make Afghanistan an Islamic State. They were on a mission from god.
In I think the early to mid nineties those children now adults returned to Afghanistan known as the Taliban. At first the majority of Afghans were greatfull because they brought order to the land through shria law. Thieves lost limbs, rapists were sentenced to death, corrupt officials were brought to trial and punished, opium trade took a hit. Of course enforcement of shria law didn’t help women much in the way of public life, jobs and education. But all of this was almost thirty years ago who knows how dedicated to Shria law they are now.
I’m sure everyone gets all giddy when they hear about the Northern Alliance and see all the flag waving. But they’re some of the biggest opium producers in Afghanistan. I’d wager they’re more concerned about protecting their poppy fields from the Taliban than they are women’s rights or Afghan freedom and democracy.
Skybird
08-19-21, 03:18 AM
The Taleban have hermetically sealed off the airport now and let pass only foreigners with papers and Afghans with valid travel papers.
Since for example the German government dramatically delayed and obstructed the handing out of visas since months while telling the German public that all Afghan helpers who file a visa request will get flown out, I think there is no more hope for 99 out of 100. Until jst days agao those visa could not be asked for anywhere else than in an insufficiently operating office in Kabul. The perfidy.
I absolutely think its realistic to assume that Europeans have issued some pressure or arrangements or promises via Pakistan that the taleban prevent too many Afghans leaving the country - and causing a new migration trek westward. 2016 on everybody's mind.
Once again Russia, and China, can play a trump card established since long: reminding the world of that if you trust the West, you will in the end get betrayed and left behind. Thats what Chinan and Russia usually do, too, of course. But thats what they do not tell.
Taiwan watches closely, I am certain. Yes, its the Pacific, yes its about China, and still: risking a big war with big losses - over this tiny island somewhere else?
I believe it when I see it.
Same is true for Europe. In this case I cannot criticise America, however,Europe is economically strong enough to care for its defence itself. Its just that it does not want that, but celebrates a supercostly "sociality" party instead.
Catfish
08-19-21, 03:56 AM
Was in the news that US guards at the airport in Kabul only let their own people through, even if they have german or UK papers, let alone afghan people with valid papers for a flight to other places than the US.
Skybird
08-19-21, 04:21 AM
That simple it maybe is not, Catfish. It seems the Germans fail again by not posting somebody at the gates checkign the papers.Thats what the US soldiers complain about and demand, FOCU writes:
In Afghanistan's capital Kabul, local helpers from German organizations are having difficulties getting to the airport for evacuation flights. Two local staff reported this to the German press agency on Thursday. On the one hand, the streets to the airport entrances are completely blocked and partly impassable. On the other hand, US soldiers would not let them in at the entrances. "The American soldiers only let their people through," said a local agent. At the time when the person was called to the airport, there was no one from the German side at the entrance. Another local officer reported that she tried to get into the airport from 8 p.m. to 2 a.m. A US soldier said that someone had to come over and check whether he was really a local German employee.
Skybird
08-19-21, 04:33 AM
Game, set and match to this analysis.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.focus.de/politik/meinungsmacher/weitergedacht-die-wagenknecht-kolumne-der-krieg-in-afghanistan-war-ein-debakel-und-es-ist-eure-schuld-liebe-bundesregierung_id_16952281.html
Excellent.
Skybird
08-19-21, 04:42 AM
And a major of the German KSK special commandos setting accounts with cowardly, incompetent politicians.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ex-ksk-soldat-too-late-too-little-wenn-es-darauf-ankommt-muss-es-die-gescholtene-bundeswehr-richten_id_16839351.html
Skybird
08-19-21, 09:05 AM
After taking power in Afghanistan, the radical Islamic Taliban could use biometric data to search for critics. It is likely that the Taliban have gained access to biometric data, said the US human rights organization Human Rights First. These could include characteristics of individuals such as fingerprints, iris scans of the eye, or data for digitally recognizing faces. (Der Tagesspiegel)
Heard in the news that the Taliban is lacking money
Hearing this I came to think of what I wrote yesterday
Will Taliban stop the Afghan narko export or will they take over and
earn money ?
Markus
A friend posted this interesting link on his wall
This survey is from 2013 and 99% af the Afghan people prefer Sharia I don't think it has change since then.
https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Markus
Jimbuna
08-19-21, 12:12 PM
Taliban 'carrying out highly organised manhunt'
The Taliban are carrying out a highly-organised door-to-door hunt for people on their wanted list, says the head of the group providing intelligence to the UN.
"What we have seen is that the Taliban, in advance of moving into all major cities in Afghanistan, not just Kabul, is that they have a more advanced intelligence system," Christian Nellemann, of the Norwegian Centre for Global Analyses, told the BBC.
"They have lists of individuals and even within the very first hours of moving into Kabul they began a search of former government employees - especially in intelligence services and the special forces units."
He said that, not only could this lead to mass executions, but also a "mass revealing of our methods and the intelligence networks that the West has provided. So this could undermine severely a number of our Western intelligence services."
As we reported earlier, the Norwegian Centre for Global Analyses’ report to the UN also said the Taliban are recruiting new informer networks to collaborate with their regime.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963
Jimbuna
08-19-21, 12:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJkNTLncmWI
He said that, not only could this lead to mass executions, but also a "mass revealing of our methods and the intelligence networks that the West has provided. So this could undermine severely a number of our Western intelligence services."
If the Taliban already have lists of Intelligence Service officials and Special Forces members in "all the major cities...., not just Kabul" then i'd say that ship has already sailed.
3catcircus
08-19-21, 03:36 PM
A friend posted this interesting link on his wall
This survey is from 2013 and 99% af the Afghan people prefer Sharia I don't think it has change since then.
https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Markus
I'm wondering what the gender of those surveyed was... I'm thinking plenty of women would have responded differently.
I'm wondering what the gender of those surveyed was... I'm thinking plenty of women would have responded differently.
Due to Islam's cultural thing I guess they have only asked male person above 18 years of age.
Markus
em2nought
08-19-21, 03:41 PM
You almost wonder if our government and military brass botched this ending so badly on purpose so that we'd have to go back, and do it all over again. It's not like any of them will be held accountable. $$$
Be prepared for strikes in Afghanistan. It will be so ordinary that no news channel will care to make it breaking news maybe as a short issue before weather.
Markus
Buddahaid
08-19-21, 06:25 PM
You almost wonder if our government and military brass botched this ending so badly on purpose so that we'd have to go back, and do it all over again. It's not like any of them will be held accountable. $$$
Never going to happen. The Taliban will let the thousands of Americans out simply because they are in a good position and won't risk being bombed over it.
Jimbuna
08-20-21, 07:16 AM
US says its evacuation plans from Kabul airport are being stepped up after criticism for being too slow.
Nine men from Hazara minority were tortured and murdered by the Taliban - Amnesty International.
UK Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab under pressure over accusations of putting Afghan interpreters' lives at risk.
Taliban shot dead relative of one of its journalists, says German broadcaster Deutsche Welle.
A German national has been shot while trying to get to Kabul airport. According to a German government spokeswoman, the civilian is to be flown out soon: "he is being given medical care and there is no risk to his life".
President Joe Biden is to give an update later on Friday on the US evacuation operation in Afghanistan, the White House has said.
Never going to happen. The Taliban will let the thousands of Americans out simply because they are in a good position and won't risk being bombed over it.
As long as they're leaving by aircraft i have hope that you are right but if this ends with the last ones having to walk or drive out it could be reminiscent of the 1842 British withdrawal from Kabul.
blackswan40
08-20-21, 09:02 PM
Afghanistan the end dont think so WWII didnt end after the battle of El Alamien this isn't the end it isn't even the begining of the end but it is perhaps the end of the begining Winston Churchill Quote.
How long will it be before Afghanistan the festering Sore needs lancing once again and the US Nato dip thier feet in muddy waters again what will we call that Operation The Great Crusade.
The US were hoping the Taliban wouldnt take over Afganistan for at least 90 days talk about 3 little pigs and the house of straw childrens story
the Afgan people have been thrown under a bus big time.
Will all the western Nationalities get out the taliban are holding all the aces this could turn out very nasty indeed.
Buddahaid
08-20-21, 09:42 PM
Without Iran stepping up there was no chance for the government to hold out and I still think this will settle out okay if the west just shuts up and leaves.
blackswan40
08-20-21, 10:46 PM
Without Iran stepping up there was no chance for the government to hold out and I still think this will settle out okay if the west just shuts up and leaves.
Why would Iran do the west any favours.
settle out okay for whom Russia and China must be rubbing there hands with glee all that new lithium deposits found in Afghanistan whats going to happen when the oil runs out and Tbirds wont roll :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ2QOwQdHL8&list=RDNJ2QOwQdHL8&start_radio=1
Billy Bragg
"Help Save The Youth Of America"
Help save the youth of America
Help save them from themselves
Help save the sun-tanned surfer boys
And the Californian girls
When the lights go out in the rest of the World
What do our cousins say
They're playing in the sun and having fun, fun, fun
Till Daddy takes the gun away
From the Big Church to the Big River
And out to the Shining Sea
This is the Land of Opportunity
And there's a Monkey Trial on TV
A nation with their freezers full
Are dancing in their seats
While outside another nation
Is sleeping in the streets
Don't tell me the old, old story
Tell me the truth this time
Is the Man in the Mask or the Indian
An enemy or a friend of mine
Help save the youth of America
Help save the youth of the world
Help save the boys in uniform
Their mothers and their faithful girls
Listen to the voice of the soldier
Down in the killing zone
Talking about the cost of living
And the price of bringing him home
They're already shipping the body bags
Down below the Rio Grande
But you can fight for democracy at home
And not in some foreign land
And the fate of the great United States
Is entwined in the fate of us all
And the incident at Chernobyl proves
The world we live in is very small
And the cities of Europe have burned before
And they may yet burn again
And if they do I hope you understand
That Washington will burn with them
Omaha will burn with them
Los Alamos will burn with them
The real problem is that there never was an exit strategy ... for twenty years. No possible 'safe' exit plan from this quagmire from the beginning. No lessons about using war as a 'foreign policy first option' learned by the chicken hawks of the nation. Surgical strikes to take out criminals do not require invasion and occupation.
Catfish
08-21-21, 04:56 AM
"At the moment everything at NATO revolves around the evacuation at Kabul airport. Nevertheless, the first cracks in the alliance are becoming visible. And the criticism comes mainly from Great Britain, so far the Americans' closest ally. Several conservative politicians and former ministers openly question the Americans' claim to leadership in the alliance over Afghanistan.
Hungary's chief diplomat Péter Szijjártó also vigorously demanded during the secret deliberations of the EU foreign ministers this week that "the EU's strategic independence" be strengthened because of the developments in Syria and Afghanistan. That has been France's position for a long time."
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article233270015/Afghanistan-Einsatz-Patient-Nato-und-ein-schlimmer-Verdacht.html
Skybird
08-21-21, 08:00 AM
Ha, I just wanted to post on in how far the circumstances of the retreat are putting America's leadership in NATO in doubt. I see serious damage done there. Beyond repair.
To leave, I still think was and is the right thing to do. It is overdue, since many, many years. One could have stayed another 30 years, and nothign would have changed, I am certain. But the planning for how to do it, obviously leaves plenty to be desired.
And I mind everybody, that Trump signed a pullout agreement for even earlier this year, and without any conditions accepted by the Taleban. Biden already has stretched timetables beyond their Trump-set limits. The usual bipartisan polarization thing that many Americnas have as their new hobby nowadays, does not bite here.
I could absolutely imagine that future historians will write about this desaster in some decades: "The chaotic and reality-disconnected way in which the pullout from Afghanistan was unilaterally triggered by one NATO member alone, was the beginning of the end of the alliance."
The big question, the elephant in the room, now is: what will Europe do to reduce its dependency from US forces that are increasingly unlikely to stand by the claimed purposes that once were the reason why they got send to Europe in the first. Lets face it, since many years the US sends one message at all four directions, loud and strongly: the US is an untrustworthy and unreliably "ally". And it likes to arrange politically strategic defeats for itself. And of Biden it is known that he prefers only soft power to support "allies", but wants military means limited to defend own American interests and people exclusively. "America first". And that is even legitimate, we non-Americans have no claim that America has to serve our interests. So again the question: with America increasingly falling out as world policeman and guardian of our security - what are we Europeans doing about it?
I don'T expect to become impressed any time soon.
Helmut Schmidt got it right on Afghanistan, he said something like this: the only conqueror who got Afghanistan right, was Alexander the Great. He entered it from one side, and then left it immediately again on the other side, on the Kyber Pass.
All others failed.
Jimbuna
08-21-21, 08:22 AM
The US has advised citizens not to travel to Kabul airport because of possible security threats at the gates.
American helicopters have been flying US citizens to the airport from a hotel compound nearby.
The Taliban's co-founder has arrived in the Afghan capital Kabul.
Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar is set to join talks on establishing a new government.
US President Joe Biden has vowed to bring home all Americans and the Afghans who helped them.
But he warned that the mass evacuation mission would be risky and dangerous.
blackswan40
08-21-21, 08:53 AM
Co Founder of No one left behind pulls no punches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DztdH9DylNw
Skybird
08-21-21, 09:07 AM
^Strong. Thanks for sharing!
Note, the man does not argue with pulling out, but with the way in which it is being done.
An easy walkover for the Taliban, which they may lose again if the play their cards wrong.
Heard in the news some days ago. If Afghanistan once again turns into a terror nest, USA and NATO will intervene.
Markus
Buddahaid
08-21-21, 10:08 AM
Why would Iran do the west any favours.
Regional stability is in their best interest.
Interesting is Afghanistan under the Taliban = unstable region ?
Markus
Buddahaid
08-21-21, 10:40 AM
Interesting is Afghanistan under the Taliban = unstable region ?
Markus
I don't think there was ever stability there and there will be those that will still be fighting the Taliban.
Skybird
08-21-21, 11:27 AM
And there are some who are even worse than the Taleban.
I assume the US will keep an ELINT eye on things and occasionally spend a RC air visit, dropping a present.
ELINT misses out on HUMINT, however. Whether that loss pays out bad or not, remains to be seen. As usual, I am not optimistic.
I would like iof media spend more focus on the theft of biometric databases. It illustrates a deep and very serious dnager valdi for us Wetserners alla cross Wetsenr nations. Indian poipulaiton and US population alrready has seen siugnficant parts fo their citizend havign their exe scans and fingeprrints being stolen by "somebody". Numbers I believe to recall from already several years ago said one third of the US population and several hundred million Indian citizens (India runs a very extensive biometric regime on its population) have their data beign stolen by somebody, may it be hostile governments, criminal organisations, political extremists hoping to come to power in the future, big business - whomever.
Ask your doc for an emergency injection of imagination if you do not see an issue in that. Its a very grave concern as long as you have no magic orb allowing you to see into the future and know whether or not legislation will turn to abuse these data, or not. Whatever polticians cna break, they will break it sooner or later, and Murphy's law says that evertyhing that could theoretically happen, will happen if you wait long enough. When it comes to state and politics, I always expect the worst and do never trust.
I don't think there was ever stability there and there will be those that will still be fighting the Taliban.
I had the impression that the region was somehow stable when USA and NATO was in Afghanistan.
Different terror groups has what I know been fighting each others.
Markus
Jimbuna
08-21-21, 12:23 PM
An easy walkover for the Taliban, which they may lose again if the play their cards wrong.
Heard in the news some days ago. If Afghanistan once again turns into a terror nest, USA and NATO will intervene.
Markus
Not if either Russia or China fill the vacuum.
Interesting is Afghanistan under the Taliban = unstable region ?
Markus
The Taliban will not take over the entire country. The various tribes still control their own enclaves so civil war there will continue as it always has like Budda says.
I thought that Chinas interest in Afghanistan was purely civilian and not military.
Russia have they forgot what happened last time they tried to play cards with Afghanistan. As someone wrote Russia could support northern group who's fighting the Taliban.
Markus
The Taliban will not take over the entire country. The various tribes still control their own enclaves so civil war there will continue as it always has like Budda says.
For how long?. Now the Taliban has very modern weapons.
I don't know how well equip the other side is.
Markus
Skybird
08-21-21, 01:20 PM
I thought that Chinas interest in Afghanistan was purely civilian and not military.
Thjeir intrest is economical, and they will use money, bribery, making Afghjnaistan dependent and maybe even spoars emilitary means to secure those eoch9mic interests. Afghanistan sits on trillions of rare earth, moinerals, resources.
China wants it all. To use it itself. To prevent an economic rival (rare earths), and preventing others form having these earths (so that they depend on China selling them). For their Silkroad 2.0 project.
They also want to keep an eye on Islam, because in China they supress over six dozen cultural and ethnical minorities. The spirit of uprise should be kept far, far away. They can see in Africa, Europe, America, how bad it is with Islam, thats why they crack down so hard on the Uighurs, too.
Thjeir intrest is economical, and they will use money, bribery, making Afghjnaistan dependent and maybe even spoars emilitary means to secure those eoch9mic interests. Afghanistan sits on trillions of rare earth, moinerals, resources.
China wants it all. To use it itself. To prevent an economic rival (rare earths), and preventing others form having these earths (so that they depend on China selling them). For their Silkroad 2.0 project.
They also want to keep an eye on Islam, because in China they supress over six dozen cultural and ethnical minorities. The spirit of uprise should be kept far, far away. They can see in Africa, Europe, America, how bad it is with Islam, thats why they crack down so hard on the Uighurs, too.
A few weeks ago I wrote that I could very well imagine Chinese soldiers in Afghanistan. I change this to likely ´cause I think China isn't interested in making same mistake.
Markus
Skybird
08-21-21, 03:16 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/afghanistan-war-neocons-george-w-bush-would-you-know-isn-ncna1277267
While neoconservatives claim to be motivated by a commitment to promoting liberal democracy abroad, their push for war and empire was justified through lies and deception (https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/article_1542jsp/). And that played a huge part in undermining the stability of liberal democracy here at home.
^(...)v
Their hubris and greed cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of lives — and did more to diminish American power than our stated adversaries ever could.
The US has advised citizens not to travel to Kabul airport because of possible security threats at the gates.
Well, damn. I was just planning a trip there. :shifty:
When People from Afghanistan came to Denmark to seek asylum they said that they would get killed if they are sent back.
Some days ago we could read in Danish news article Afghan refugees who already got asylum in Denmark, crying for help from the Danish government, they want to come home.
Edit
There are around 20.000 Afghan people in Denmark and not everyone of these have been on vacation in their homeland.
End edit
Markus
Skybird
08-22-21, 04:51 AM
Getting disgusted in the morning. This complete waste of a German government offers Afghans eligible for Evacuation money if the stay in Afghanistan, not wanting to leave anymore. "Throw a last Party, have a life and get killed happily afterwards!"
Maybe we should sent back the Palettes with beer that we evacuated with the last two Planes (that returned the Bundeswehr) instead of loading afghans on board. And a music box. Taliban may go crazy, lose their minds and drop dead. With German beer and German Schlager, everything looks just half as bad.
Catfish
08-22-21, 05:04 AM
The whole german government should resign and step back. This is the least.
Jimbuna
08-22-21, 05:25 AM
Getting disgusted in the morning. This complete waste of a German government offers Afghans eligible for Evacuation money if the stay in Afghanistan, not wanting to leave anymore. "Throw a last Party, have a life and get killed happily afterwards!"
Maybe we should sent back the Palettes with beer that we evacuated with the last two Planes (that returned the Bundeswehr) instead of loading afghans on board. And a music box. Taliban may go crazy, lose their minds and drop dead. With German beer and German Schlager, everything looks just half as bad.
The whole german government should resign and step back. This is the least.
Bit of a shame really but they do appear to be making themselves look rather foolish in the eyes of the international community....at least where Afghanistan is concerned :yep:
Jimbuna
08-22-21, 05:57 AM
The US is under growing pressure to extend evacuations beyond the end of August.
Tens of thousands of Afghans are still racing to flee the country, a week after the Taliban seized control.
A former British military chief said extending the deadline would save lives.
The EU's foreign policy chief says it would be "impossible" to evacuate all Afghans with travel permits by 31 August.
Seven died in the crowds outside Kabul airport according to the UK Ministry of Defence.
The US has warned its citizens to avoid Kabul airport.
It is concerned about potential attacks there by militants linked to the Islamic State group.
Ex-UK Prime Minister Tony Blair described the decision to withdraw US forces as "imbecilic"
The alliered is on its way back.
Right now there are troops from USA at the airport in Kabul. Finland and Sweden are planning on sending troops to. Denmark have been discussing it but have no plans yet.
I don't know if there's other countries than USA who has troops in Kabul airport
Markus
Skybird
08-22-21, 08:39 AM
The whole german government should resign and step back. This is the least.
For that they would need to have a sense of shame, morality and respnsiiublity.
Having just one of these traits already disqualifies interested candidates from launching a career in federal politics.
But what do we expect? Thiunk back 3, 4 years, how thgis "coalition" was once again formed while having been voted out of office, de facto. Mit Hängen und Würgen. The results are according.
And then the evading Wortgeschwurbel in this typical German "versubstantivierte" super-hyper-mega-theoretical slang that German buraucrats so often practice. Merkel, Maaß and others, they all fall back to it when wanting to dodge their duties and responsibility. Keeping warm air in motion and wasting oxygene.
Incompetent scumbags. It has become known that since at least two months the Bundeswehr had plans ready to start evacuations, and urged thegovenrment to give green light. Foreign ministry and chancellor's office both ran a total blockade on it.
And Merkjel? While the situation at Kabul became obvious and imploded, she was running pohoto shpooptings and meetrings with grannies and babbled about the relevance of women in politics and how ti unfolded in thr history of the federla republic.
How it degenerated, might be a more fitting description.
Skybird
08-22-21, 08:45 AM
I don't know if there's other countries than USA who has troops in Kabul airport
Germans, Britons, Norwegians at least, saw them all on live TV coverage. Probably others as well.
I stick to it, pulling out was the correct decision, and overdue. But the way in which it is done, is utmost dilletantism (or cynism?) and incompetence. Its a desaster. One should have started to silently pick up local helpers and their core families and get them out, for months, and should have timed the endphase of the obvious military pullout not for the midst of the warm season, but in cold winter when fighters all are at home in their villages.
Thats what the pros from various forces and agencies have planned and trained for, what they were ready to do, since the beginning of this year, in the US, in Germany - everywhere. Thats how these kind of things are beign done, and it gets trained and the plans are ready in the drawers. But Biden wanted his damn fricking symbolism regarding September 11th. And lets not forget it, before him was Trump having ordered an unconditional pullout even for already May this year, originally. Both Trump and Biden have done everything wrong that could be done wrong. Everything.
Damn cynical idiots. I hate it when politicians start to babble about and pose with their damn symbolism showacts. Sentimentaler Schwachsinn.
The blame is not our politicians when someone has to be blamed it should be our intelligent service. Our politicians based their withdraw on what they was told by the intelligens
Same was the case with the Danish government they were told it would take month before Taliban could have almost full control over the country.
Same info was given to President Biden and he and his government. He based his steps on this.
So if there's any to blame it is the intelligent service.
Markus
Skybird
08-22-21, 10:30 AM
The blame is not our politicians when someone has to be blamed it should be our intelligent service. Our politicians based their withdraw on what they was told by the intelligens
Really...?
It gets repprted ove rhere that the BND warned the German government since last Decembre and January.
Warnings by insiders and experts deeply embedded in locaiton and familaiur with the problems from direct contact, told our potli8ans since months that they must give green lights. And it were the politicians that said No and No and No. And No. No. No means No. No.
I am not so certain that the intel agencies really did not know it better. Not to metion the military.
I cannot prove the intel servcies are "innocent". But I tend to absolutely mistrust politicians for principle reasons. Especially when they are as lousy as the German ones.
And people even vote for this...! :doh: In the end, the main guilt must be accepted yb the people themselves, the populations in our coutnries who alow these potlicans and parties to turn thiugns worse and worse, and who fall for their lies time and again, and always argue: "Next time it all gets better, somebody you must vote for anyway, right?"
Well, why...? By now everybody who claism to eb adult shoudl now what kind of bigmouths and liars he is dealign with when talkign about political parties, and if you vote for one of these, you should know what it is that you will get. There is no excuse anymore to be naive. "Insanity is to do the same thing again and again, but expecting different results."
^ I based my comment on what I have heard in our news here in Denmark.
And it would take Taliban at least 6 month before they got almost full control over Afghanistan and Kabul.
Whether it was CIA/NSA/BND/PET a.s.o fault or the government fault it really doesn't matter because
No one was expecting the Taliban would retake Afghanistan so quickly.
Markus
Jeff-Groves
08-22-21, 10:50 AM
"No one was expecting the Taliban would retake Afghanistan so quickly."
https://youtu.be/jmIuCV989Yc?t=2
Otto Harkaman
08-22-21, 11:20 AM
Future collaboration between Hamas and Taliban?
Many Sunni terror groups, such as Hamas, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda, have similar ideological roots, provide one another with aid, and share some regional patrons. Qatar, for example, has played host to the exiled leadership of both Hamas and the Taliban in Doha. Hamas leader Ismael Haniyeh reportedly met the Taliban’s leaders following the May conflict between Hamas and Israel, although neither group publicly confirmed the contacts.https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-praises-taliban-for-causing-american-downfall-in-afghanistan/
Jimbuna
08-22-21, 01:21 PM
I don't know if there's other countries than USA who has troops in Kabul airport
Markus
Oh, really?
Elements of the British Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade have been there since the past week (almost 1000) and more will be sent if needed.
The UK alongside the USA certainly can't be accused of dithering...unlike some allies.
Jimbuna
08-22-21, 01:26 PM
Afghanistan: US orders civilian jets to join evacuation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58299804
Oh, really?
Elements of the British Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade have been there since the past week (almost 1000) and more will be sent if needed.
The UK alongside the USA certainly can't be accused of dithering...unlike some allies.
I was uncertain who had troops at the Kabul airport beside the Americans.
That's why I wrote "I don't know if there's..."
Soon every Western country will have troops there.
Markus
Jeff-Groves
08-22-21, 02:03 PM
Oh, really?
Elements of the British Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade have been there since the past week (almost 1000) and more will be sent if needed.
The UK alongside the USA certainly can't be accused of dithering...unlike some allies.
Ah the 16 Air Assault.
The UK's answer to our 82nd Airborne.
Any Chap that jumps out of an areoplane is a fine fellow in my book!
:salute::salute:
Skybird
08-22-21, 02:34 PM
Beside Americans, Britons and Germans, there are at least Polish, Norwegians and French on the ground in Kabul. I read that Australia has evacuated a small number of people, too, though the text said just "24".
Germans operate with 600 soldiers plus commandos and two helicopters for evacuation of individuals from houses in the city. They say the climate with the Americans is not always cooperative, they had to land three A400M flights at least despite US orders not to land, and collided with US military leadership head on repeatedly. So far the Germans every time prevailed. Its the reason why sometimes the German planes launch again with less people on board than they could load, although the Airbus transports now also try to overload with up to around 250 people (usually the cap is at 140). Fortunately the German general commanding the operation in Kabul is said to be quite assertive, if need be. German defence ministry gave him absolute card blanche, so he must not take dirt from anyone, and will not. On the other hand the commandos in the city operate under US surviellance and air support, so cooperation still seems to work in other fields. Just at the airport the Americans seem to be bullying everybody, or try to. "US mission first".
Evacuation is an fast ongoing process. It's going so fast that they don't have time to check who's getting on board
Following is a German article I don't know how to translate the page.
Following quote has been translated
A criminal deported from Germany managed to re-enter the country on an evacuation plane.
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article233279129/Afghanistan-Im-Flughafenchaos-abgeschobener-Straftaeter-in-Evakuierungsflieger-gelangt.html
Markus
Ah the 16 Air Assault.
The UK's answer to our 82nd Airborne.
Any Chap that jumps out of an areoplane is a fine fellow in my book!
:salute::salute:
A cut above. :yep:
Cyborg322
08-23-21, 05:34 AM
https://metro.co.uk/video/taliban-warns-biden-delays-withdrawal-provoke-reaction-2486885/?ito=vjs-link
No extension to deadline says Taliban spokesman as Biden looks lost and weak and Europeans over reliant on US. The Taliban go from strength to strength looking strong determined and in control . Who is going to back down ? Its going to be a smoke and mirrors affair hiding the tail between legs pull out by all. Or will the Taliban capitalise even further politically by allowing a last minute extension showing their ability to "negotiate" they appear too have all the right moves and vastly underestimated by the "experts" and governments despite the red flags going way back. What a monumental clustermess
Meanwhile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO69xSIBS50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dykZyuWci3g
The battle for the last enklave are on its way or may have startet as I write this comment.
Can't remember the name of this enklave only it is the smallest of them all. And the clan who's in charge there is fighting the Taliban.
Now that Taliban got their hands on advanced weapon system I wonder if the other side has any chances.
Markus
Buddahaid
08-23-21, 10:33 AM
What advanced weapons systems?
What advanced weapons systems?
Black Hawk helicopters. I see them as an advanced weapon system
(Another thing is learning to use them)
Artillery Here I'm uncertain to whether it's ordinary artillery or these advanced type(seen on future weapon)
Markus
Otto Harkaman
08-23-21, 10:57 AM
Afghan advanced weaponry; pack mules or donkeys to haul mortars and ammo
Buddahaid
08-23-21, 11:00 AM
The Blackhawks are 40 something years old and not equipped with advanced weapons systems.
The Blackhawks are 40 something years old and not equipped with advanced weapons systems.
You're right I made a search and it said in the article that USA toke the advanced weapon system with them and left some old equipment to the Afghan army and some new(didn't say what)
Here is the article
Headline
How Valuable Are The U.S. Weapons The Taliban Just Captured?
The U.S. military removed planes, heavy weapons and sophisticated military equipment as it began winding down its operations in Afghanistan in the spring. But it couldn't take home 20 years of accumulated hardware and instead left much of it to the Afghan military.
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/21/1029449432/taliban-afghanistan-us-weapons-captured
Markus
A female journalist who works for our Danish news channel, wrote this on her wall
"
Yesterday I saw the body of two people, wrapped in white robes. They had been crushed to death in front of the airport. Two out of several.
Again I saw desperate people. Little children. Crying.
And people who are forced to their knees. Disqualified. Degraded.
This is not just a tragedy unfolding. This is a failure without comparison.
I am ashamed. As a Dane. As Europeans. As a woman. Like Mother. As a daughter. As a human being.
This is happening in the name of us all. And it could have been avoided. How I am going to explain to my children sometime in the future that we all let this happen, I have no idea.
The British soldiers I talk to do not know either. Hard-skinned men who have fought the Taliban in Helmand are crying in front of me.
They feel powerless. “This is 1000 times worse. This is a tragedy. I have never seen so much desperation. ”
"
Markus
Jimbuna
08-23-21, 12:43 PM
The Taliban will not extend the 31 August deadline for the current evacuation mission, a spokesman has said.
But the UK is expected to urge President Biden to delay the withdrawal of US forces beyond that date at Tuesday's G7 talks.
France is also calling for the US military presence to be extended..
Thousands of Afghans are trying to flee the country, a week after the Taliban seized control.
The German military says a member of the Afghan security forces was killed by unidentified attackers at Kabul airport on Monday.
The gun battle came as the US said it was stepping up its evacuation effort
Aircraft from Delta, United Airlines and others will help fly those already
evacuated from Afghanistan to final destinations.
US vice-president Kamala Harris - who's visiting Singapore - praised the US military for "doing very hard and difficult work" at Kabul airport.
Aktungbby
08-23-21, 12:45 PM
Afghan advanced weaponry; pack mules or donkeys to haul mortars and ammo
The Blackhawks are 40 something years old and not equipped with advanced weapons systems.
https://pasbanan.com/old/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/10b.pngHEY! no AK-47's in this pic!?? The poor Russians are gonna be pissed off!:D
The Blackhawks are 40 something years old and not equipped with advanced weapons systems.
Maybe but assuming they haven't killed the pilots, the Blackhawks give the Taliban an air-mobile capability they didn't have before.
Aktungbby
08-23-21, 12:57 PM
Maybe but assuming they haven't killed the pilots, the Blackhawks give the Taliban an air-mobile capability they didn't have before. Perhaps not...and the Panshir Valley is already in arms against the Taliban https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghan-military-remnants-fled-taliban-takeover-in-u-s-supplied-aircraft-11629292300
A large portion of the Afghan Air Force has ended up in neighboring Uzbekistan, after hundreds of Afghan service members used U.S.-supplied planes and helicopters to flee the Taliban, U.S. officials said.
At least 46 of the aircraft crossed over Afghanistan’s border into Uzbekistan since last weekend, when the Taliban seized Kabul and the government collapsed, U.S. officials said. The planes and helicopters carried a total of 585 members of Afghan forces with them, the officials said.
A handful of airplanes also ended up in Tajikistan, also on Afghanistan’s northern border....fortunately this didn't happen: The Biden administration was in the process of bulking up the Afghan air force. Ashraf Ghani, who had served as Afghanistan’s president since 2014, had asked President Biden for additional Black Hawk helicopters and other aircraft during a visit to Washington in June, and the U.S. agreed to provide 37 of the helicopters, which would have significantly boosted the country’s fleet of Black Hawks.
Jimbuna
08-23-21, 01:07 PM
Ah the 16 Air Assault.
The UK's answer to our 82nd Airborne.
Any Chap that jumps out of an areoplane is a fine fellow in my book!
:salute::salute:
Rgr that :yep:
Perhaps not...and the Panshir Valley is already in arms against the Taliban https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghan-military-remnants-fled-taliban-takeover-in-u-s-supplied-aircraft-11629292300
Lets hope you're right. Either way you look at it though the Taliban just got a major weapons upgrade.
Cyborg322
08-23-21, 01:36 PM
Who's who ? Taliban in uniform and weapons provided by the US could this possibly get any worse ? Not to forget also the NVGs Humvees MRAPS Blackhawk helicopters, scout attack helicopters, and ScanEagle military drones, light attack aircraft, and military transport planes,
Rule 62. Improper use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of the adversary is prohibited.
Rule 62 international law makes it a war crime if anyone is killed as a result of this
So far this just appears to be a propaganda exercise to mock the US but do the Taliban recognize international laws ? Would they push it that far? I doubt it but you never know
https://i.imgur.com/9PdtdPg.jpg
Lets hope you're right. Either way you look at it though the Taliban just got a major weapons upgrade.
That's is also how I see it, they got a major weapons upgrade and if they can learn how to use some of the older advance weapon or convince Afghan army to fight for the Taliban, they will be a factor which should be taken serious in the region.
Markus
Rockstar
08-23-21, 02:23 PM
https://youtu.be/NWu7xHRXG0M
Skybird
08-23-21, 03:04 PM
Who's who ? Taliban in uniform and weapons provided by the US could this possibly get any worse ? Not to forget also the NVGs Humvees MRAPS Blackhawk helicopters, scout attack helicopters, and ScanEagle military drones, light attack aircraft, and military transport planes,
Rule 62. Improper use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of the adversary is prohibited.
Rule 62 international law makes it a war crime if anyone is killed as a result of this
So far this just appears to be a propaganda exercise to mock the US but do the Taliban recognize international laws ? Would they push it that far? I doubt it but you never know
AFAIK no Muslim country has ever accepted the Hague landwarfare convention. And nthe Taleban are no country anyway, but a group of terrorist religious fanatical barbars. For them the only relevant rulebooks are the Quran and Hadiths.
So why do you even ask...?
AFAIK no Muslim country has ever accepted the Hague landwarfare convention. And nthe Taleban are no country anyway, but a group of terrorist religious fanatical barbars. For them the only relevant rulebooks are the Quran and Hadiths.
So why do you even ask...?
Really trying to remember what the Danish journalist said from Kabul some days ago.
Something with Taliban try to be recognized as a legal government by other countries.
Markus
Jeff-Groves
08-23-21, 03:36 PM
Something with Taliban try to be recognized as a legal government by other countries.
Probably rate right up there with the Conch Republic.
:hmmm:
https://i.imgur.com/8hKs6YY.jpg
Otto Harkaman
08-23-21, 05:10 PM
Something with Taliban try to be recognized as a legal government by other countries.
like one gang in Brooklyn saying they speak for all of New York
From the news I have read around the world it looks like that potential terrorist is being transported into Europe.
There ain't any control on who enter the evacuations plane.
Evacuee who is on UK's 'no-fly' security watchlist is airlifted from Kabul to Birmingham - then RELEASED into Britain because they're 'no longer a threat' - amid questions about screening of Afghan evacuees
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9920025/Man-UKs-no-fly-watchlist-airlifted-Kabul-Birmingham-apparent-security-breach.html
Markus
Catfish
08-24-21, 03:55 AM
^ I guess this is the same as with the de-nazification, the UK has some experience in this :O:
Good analysis why the "afghan" army surrendered, fled, or joined the Taliban.
Some wisdom about out of how you conquer a whole country in a month, without much bloodshed
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/16/afghanistan-history-taliban-collapse-504977
Cyborg322
08-24-21, 04:32 AM
AFAIK no Muslim country has ever accepted the Hague landwarfare convention. And nthe Taleban are no country anyway, but a group of terrorist religious fanatical barbars. For them the only relevant rulebooks are the Quran and Hadiths.
So why do you even ask...?
Signing up to it is one thing going against it is another
I pose the question because this "New" generation of Taliban are far more politically adept than previous reincarnations. Their spokesman is clear and decisive he comes over as confident and assured while the rest of the world is fumbling about in the dark. Believing anything he says is another matter. They are smart and I don't think they want to push things so far that public opinion of them is swayed so far that the political leaders are ousted from office by voters,its debatable if Biden can recover from this even as things stand. Contravening the Hague agreement could lead to this even if they are not party to it their gameplay so far has been to come over as reasoned and liberators that will almost certainly change as troops pull out completely but it appear to be the plan and has been successful so far.
Simon
blackswan40
08-24-21, 07:59 AM
Isis Al Hawl refugee camp isis women and children in Seria children being radicalised and the clocks ticking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW_7me1Nj7w
the deadline is August 31 is that Usa or Afganhistan Time the last two days will be for the US/Allied military to bug out
what comes after the daily executions and stonings in the town square
911 the 20th anniversary rememberance day will Isis attend in some sort of campacity it wont be the first time history has repeated its self
May 10th German Blitzkreig on the west then through the Arden and again 16th December 1944
You cant negotiate with a terorist who hates the west they are like a terminator.
Taliban dictating to America no no no no extesion to the deadline out by 31 August or there will be repercussions and no responce from America
Ex British Army Officer/MP Addresses the House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rthKSEDw9TU&t=343s
Jimbuna
08-24-21, 08:00 AM
From the news I have read around the world it looks like that potential terrorist is being transported into Europe.
There ain't any control on who enter the evacuations plane.
Evacuee who is on UK's 'no-fly' security watchlist is airlifted from Kabul to Birmingham - then RELEASED into Britain because they're 'no longer a threat' - amid questions about screening of Afghan evacuees
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9920025/Man-UKs-no-fly-watchlist-airlifted-Kabul-Birmingham-apparent-security-breach.html
Markus
The quote in your post answers your question.
Jimbuna
08-24-21, 08:02 AM
US allies warn they will not be able to evacuate all Afghans fleeing the Taliban by 31 August.
The warning comes as a G-7 summit is to hear allies press President Joe Biden to delay the withdrawal of US forces beyond that date.
US troops control Kabul airport from where some 58,700 people, mainly Afghans working for foreign forces, have been evacuated.
The Taliban have warned of consequences if foreign troops are not withdrawn by the agreed deadline.
The Taliban's treatment of women will be a red line, the UN warns at an emergency session of the Human Rights Council.
Thousands of Afghans are trying to flee, fearing reprisals from the Taliban militants now in power.
How many in percentage who have escaped Afghanistan hasn't been working for the allied?
I fully understand that we give shelter to those who have helped us there, but the rest, should they be saved ?
Edit
Last week the Danish Prime minister said that 45(who have helped Denmark) + family should be evacuated from Afghanistan to Denmark. Estimated 235-250 in total should be evacuated from Afghanistan.
So far Denmark has evacuated 850.
End edit
Markus
Jimbuna
08-24-21, 11:57 AM
The head of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) secretly met the leader of the Taliban in Kabul in Monday, sources have told US media.
Neither the Taliban nor the CIA would confirm the reported meeting between William Burns and Mullah Baradar.
US President Joe Biden has set a deadline of 31 August for American forces to leave Afghanistan. Allies - including the UK - want an extension.
US forces have been in Afghanistan since 2001, following the 9/11 attacks.
Sources have told US news outlets, including the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Associated Press and broadcaster NPR about the CIA-Taliban meeting.
However, they gave few details.
If confirmed, this would be the highest-level contact between the US and the Taliban since the militants took Kabul on 15 August, prompting the internationally backed Afghan government to flee.
About 5,800 US troops are currently guarding Kabul airport as thousands of foreign nationals and Afghans try to leave the country.
The Washington Post says the discussions are likely to have involved the deadline for the US military to conclude its airlift.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58320516
Jimbuna
08-24-21, 11:58 AM
A Taliban spokesman has said Afghans should not go to the airport or try to leave the country.
At a press briefing, Zabihullah Mujahid also said that women should stay at home for now, for their safety.
US allies have warned they will not be able to evacuate all those fleeing the Taliban by 31 August.
The warning came as a G-7 summit was to hear allies press President Joe Biden to delay the withdrawal of US forces beyond that date.
But a senior US administration official told Reuters Biden was going to stick to the deadline.
The head of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) secretly met the leader of the Taliban in Kabul in Monday, sources have told US media.
Neither the Taliban nor the CIA would confirm the reported meeting between William Burns and Mullah Baradar.
US President Joe Biden has set a deadline of 31 August for American forces to leave Afghanistan. Allies - including the UK - want an extension.
US forces have been in Afghanistan since 2001, following the 9/11 attacks.
Sources have told US news outlets, including the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Associated Press and broadcaster NPR about the CIA-Taliban meeting.
However, they gave few details.
If confirmed, this would be the highest-level contact between the US and the Taliban since the militants took Kabul on 15 August, prompting the internationally backed Afghan government to flee.
About 5,800 US troops are currently guarding Kabul airport as thousands of foreign nationals and Afghans try to leave the country.
The Washington Post says the discussions are likely to have involved the deadline for the US military to conclude its airlift.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58320516
It doesn't surprise me at all. USA knows China is on its way to take over and this is not what USA is interested in China getting influence in another country in this case Afghanistan.
In the near future Taliban will be seen as good allied to USA and not as a group of fanatic Islamic terror group.
Markus
They are smart and I don't think they want to push things so far that public opinion of them is swayed so far that the political leaders are ousted from office by voters,its debatable if Biden can recover from this even as things stand. Contravening the Hague agreement could lead to this even if they are not party to it their gameplay so far has been to come over as reasoned and liberators that will almost certainly change as troops pull out completely but it appear to be the plan and has been successful so far.
Simon
Yes, and they have even set up a "complaints" line that Afghans can call to report problems. :roll:
However, I think I could count the people they are fooling on one hand. And he lives in the White House.
Yes, and they have even set up a "complaints" line that Afghans can call to report problems. :roll:
However, I think I could count the people they are fooling on one hand. And he lives in the White House.
One !? I think you need to add a few more.
Our politician in EU would most likely believe it fully.
Markus
Skybird
08-24-21, 03:27 PM
Tens of thousands who would be eligible by the promises once made to them, will be left behind. And many of them will pay with torture and assassination - their own and that of their families.
Their own fault? Maybe they should have learned from the way the Shia once were treated in Saddam'S Iraq. First they got encouzraged to raise against him, and then they were not helped bit oen just looked when he mowed them down with helicopters he was allowed to save from operation prohibition - for this task of moving them down, I assume?
Trust the West, get betrayed. Especially when you have billions of minerals and precious earths in your possession. The Brits betrayed the Middle East before. The French did it. It is a long lasting pattern.
It became known meanwhile that the Germans have tried to bring down the numbers of people eligible for evacuation by limiting the time oeriod that gets considere ddudirng which they must have worked for the Germans. It slimit to the last couplke fo years, not the full operation time. Of course, that they were not told when they signed in.
The betrayal of the US is caused by its economic greed and unwillingness to learn form history becasue some of its masterbrains of the past times thoguht they were so much more clever and knew things better.
The betrayal of the Germans was directed against themselves: to embark on a mission they were not militarily potent enough to even just get launched by themsleves (they had no air-logistical capacity to even get to Afghanistan by themselves...), or to operate air-mobile there, they always needed the American taxi service, for practically everything, and to serious mthink they could chnage Afghan society to a lasting effect with a naive operation like this. Thats widely the mistake the other European NATO members just copied.
It was absolutely forseeable, and I said from all beginning on that no other ending than this was the only one possible - that one would crawl away one day like a whipped dog after one has lost interest in the war and had gotten enough of it.
I wonder what dillettantees are doing the needed analysis and assessments that leads to misdsion assignmewnts like this. The military's own analysts it were not. Its always and once again the political superbrains who are never short of mighty powerful words and impressive phrases.
And this is the breed of rotten incompetent minds that even gets voted for time and again...! Bidne now poses as if he ahd always opposed rhe war.That is not true, he opposes it since just roughly teh years. When the US started the extension of the mission and the attempt of nation building - he supported it.
The excuses of "we couldnt have known" and "at least we tried it", I do not accept. One could and one should have knbown it form beginning on. And the try had no chance from beginning on to produce lastign results.
From all failings of the American-led West's modern adventures in the oriental wonderland, this is the most shameful. Desasters they were all, but this is the most shameful.
Cyborg322
08-25-21, 06:17 AM
Yes, and they have even set up a "complaints" line that Afghans can call to report problems. :roll:
However, I think I could count the people they are fooling on one hand. And he lives in the White House.
Its a case of believe what you want to hear to fit his agenda the thing is no one really knows what is many politcian's are doing the same negotiating with terrorist expecting us to except its the only solution and we should just trust the Taliban to carry out promises. Totally unbelievable and unacceptable.
The Dead in Deadline surely states what is going to happen next,shame on Biden
Biden address to congress
The War in Afghanistan, as we remember the debates here, were never meant to be multi-generational undertakings of nation-building. We went to Afghanistan to get terrorists — the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 — and we said we would follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of hell to do it. If you’ve been to the upper Kunar Valley, you’ve kind of seen the gates of hell. And we delivered justice to bin Laden. We degraded the terrorist threat of al Qaeda in Afghanistan. And after 20 years of value — valor and sacrifice, it’s time to bring those troops home. (Applause.)
Yes after you re-open the GATES OF HELL to allow the degraded al Qaeda threat back through
Cyborg322
08-25-21, 06:58 AM
US fears risk of Islamic State attack in Kabul
The longer the US stayed in the country, he said, there was an "acute and growing risk of an attack" by the group.
US media are reporting that troops are already starting to be evacuated if that is true he (Biden) is a least sticking to his plan of doing everything backwards
Skybird
08-25-21, 07:23 AM
I think sticking with the time limit is the right thing to do. It is bitter, but for the following reason I think its correct:
Because every single day with reports on the chaos, images of the obvious defeat of the West and its shame gets produced and spread in the world. Its a giant propaganda show in which the defeated illustrates his inferior position and the pitiful outcome of a 20 years ambition. The Romans led the chieftains and leaders of defeated people around the streets of Rome during a victory parade, before they got executed. What we see in TV images from Afghanistan and the Airport Kabul now, pretty much serves the same purpose: disgracing the defeated Western powers, and namely the US. For the Taleban, its a giant propaganda coup. And all for free.
The mistakes have been made. The proper way to get out would have been to start with civil evacuations silenty and months ahead. And withdrawing in winter, not in summer. All mistakes possible have been made. The last mistake one could have done is to let this TV series of endless shameful pictures go on and on.
It gotta stop.
Jimbuna
08-25-21, 07:25 AM
Evacuations from Kabul airport in Afghanistan pick up pace, with the total number leaving since the Taliban takeover reaching 82,300
US President Joe Biden says he aims to complete the operation - and US troop pull-out - by the 31 August deadline.
Some US troops have already started to leave as the effort enters its final phase.
US allies have pressed Biden to extend the timeframe.
There are fears thousands of Afghans who wish to flee the Taliban may be left behind.
The Taliban says the Afghans should not go to Kabul airport or try to leave the country.
Cyborg322
08-25-21, 07:43 AM
I think sticking with the time limit is the right thing to do. It is bitter, but for the following reason I think its correct:
Because every single day with reports on the chaos, images of the obvious defeat of the West and its shame gets produced and spread in the world. Its a giant propaganda show in which the defeated illustrates his inferior position and the pitiful outcome of a 20 years ambition. The Romans led the chieftains and leaders of defeated people around the streets of Rome during a victory parade, before they got executed. What we see in TV images from Afghanistan and the Airport Kabul now, pretty much serves the same purpose: disgracing the defeated Western powers, and namely the US. For the Taleban, its a giant propaganda coup. And all for free.
The mistakes have been made. The proper way to get out would have been to start with civil evacuations silenty and months ahead. And withdrawing in winter, not in summer. All mistakes possible have been made. The last mistake one could have done is to let this TV series of endless shameful pictures go on and on.
It gotta stop.
This is not the end its just the beginning we need to know whats going on. The Taliban needs to know that the world eyes are upon them
Jimbuna
08-25-21, 08:07 AM
I'm wondering if the military equipment that can't be flown out will be destroyed or perhaps even boobytrapped.
Skybird
08-25-21, 08:21 AM
This is not the end its just the beginning we need to know whats going on. The Taliban needs to know that the world eyes are upon them
No TV and media in the place you lived in the past 20 years..?
Honestylk said I think the ytalkeban do hnot care o ne bit for the eyes of the world. Nor does the IS or the Kaeda that are in Afgjanistan, too - and are more brutal andradical than the Taleban are.
They have learned to avoid ELINT and drone and satellite recce. Many drone strikes in the past 20 years also killed many civilians, and blew up wedding parties and jubilee birthday parties. Leaves you with HUMINT in the main.
Damn, thats the HUMINT that just got evacuated or betrayed or that was chased out of the window.
"Just the beginning"...? "Eyes of the world"...? "We need to know"...?
What have they tried the past 20 years?
Get over it. Afghanistan is lost. The election was not stolen from Trump. Elvis is dead. There is no Nazi base on the moon.
I recommend to study things in the tribal region of Pakistan. Thats what Afghanistan is - just bigger.
Cyborg322
08-25-21, 10:59 AM
No TV and media in the place you lived in the past 20 years..?
Honestylk said I think the ytalkeban do hnot care o ne bit for the eyes of the world. Nor does the IS or the Kaeda that are in Afgjanistan, too - and are more brutal andradical than the Taleban are.
They have learned to avoid ELINT and drone and satellite recce. Many drone strikes in the past 20 years also killed many civilians, and blew up wedding parties and jubilee birthday parties. Leaves you with HUMINT in the main.
Damn, thats the HUMINT that just got evacuated or betrayed or that was chased out of the window.
"Just the beginning"...? "Eyes of the world"...? "We need to know"...?
What have they tried the past 20 years?
Get over it. Afghanistan is lost. The election was not stolen from Trump. Elvis is dead. There is no Nazi base on the moon.
I recommend to study things in the tribal region of Pakistan. Thats what Afghanistan is - just bigger.
I recommend you go to the tribal region of Pakistan or anywhere in Afghanistan,study then come back with the same opinion. That is of course if you can get out.
Skybird
08-25-21, 11:24 AM
You misunderstood me there, I meant to say one should take the helplessness of the Pakistani government in the tribal region to illustrate how hopeless it is to assume you can have Afghanistan "under the eyes of the world" and monitor everything relevant thats going on.
The Danish FE(Forsvarets efterretningstjeneste=Defense Intelligence Service)
Has sent a Press release..
Here is what it says
Start
"
The FE estimated that Kabul would hardly fall in 2021
The Defense Intelligence Service underestimated how quickly a takeover in Kabul would take place.
Questions have recently been raised about the intelligence base regarding the situation in Afghanistan, which the government was presented with in connection with the handling of the evacuation from Kabul.
The Defense Intelligence Service (FE) has continuously assessed the likelihood that Kabul would fall into the hands of the Taliban, as well as the time horizon for this.
Until immediately before the Taliban took power, the FE’s assessment was that Kabul was less likely to fall before the end of the year. This was i.a. stated at a briefing of the parliamentary parties on Monday, August 9, 2021
(it was based on this information the Danish government said it was time enough)
It was not a surprise that Kabul fell, but the speed at which it happened we had not considered probable. We based our assessments on the intelligence base we had available from, among others, our own collection, the Armed Forces and international partners, but it has turned out that our assessment was simply too optimistic.
"
End
Markus
Skybird
08-25-21, 01:10 PM
The German evacuation will end on Friday with the last German soldiers leaving then. That means the civilian evacuation will end sometime on Thursday.
Negotiation of the Germans wih the Taleban may open a window of opportunity for evacuation of Afghans with papers making them eligible via civilian airliners after Augst 31st. Thats what the leader of the German negotiating teams says. Maybe it happens, maybe not, I do not rule it out, but I also do not take it as certain.
Buddahaid
08-25-21, 06:09 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the US military equipment "left behind" belong to Afganistan?
Rockstar
08-25-21, 08:48 PM
So our own government leaves a crap ton of SCARs, SAWs M4s M16s, grenade launchers and stinger missiles for children and adults in a foreign lands to play with. But then turns around and keeps trying to take mine away because they’re dangerous. I don’t get it.
yes what we leave behind belongs to the current government of Afghanistan. I’m also still of the opinion that it was deliberate too
So our own government leaves a crap ton of SCARs, SAWs M4s M16s, grenade launchers and stinger missiles for children and adults in a foreign lands to play with. But then turns around and keeps trying to take mine away because they’re dangerous.
Guns don't kill people. Radical extremists (domestic and foreign) kill people. Good thing Jan. 6 didn't result in a complete withdrawal of the U.S. from the U.S. :shucks: (Why in the wide world of sports would you need SCARs, SAWs, M4s, M16s, grenade launchers or stinger missiles?)
Buddahaid
08-25-21, 10:58 PM
So our own government leaves a crap ton of SCARs, SAWs M4s M16s, grenade launchers and stinger missiles for children and adults in a foreign lands to play with. But then turns around and keeps trying to take mine away because they’re dangerous. I don’t get it.
yes what we leave behind belongs to the current government of Afghanistan. I’m also still of the opinion that it was deliberate too
Well what else was the government supposed to fight with when we left?
They are more afraid of armed citizens than armed criminals, their sovereignty is more important than your rights, criminals aren't trying to replace them but you might.
You seem to live in a land of confusion regarding the word 'criminal.' :shucks:
Well looks like there are 89 shooting investigations this year so far, 20 murders and 227 aggravated assaults.
https://www.lexingtonky.gov/shooting-investigations
https://www.lexingtonky.gov/crime-data
Lucky for us here in Kentucky we have the constitutional right to open carry and just recently added conceal carry without a permit.
Violent crime up? Need a solution? Make it easier. You heard me right. :up:
Then there's Billy Joe Bob's 'Down Home Militia' that's planning a tourist trip to the capital. :yeah:
Buddahaid
08-25-21, 11:49 PM
Isn't this thread about Afganistan? Argue gun control in the gun control thread.
so you think only criminals should have guns?
Well, that was an odd interpretation, given our exchange, so far. :shucks:
Isn't this thread about Afganistan? Argue gun control in the gun control thread.
There's a gun control thread?! Who brought in the deviation? Shame on you. :shucks:
Otto Harkaman
08-26-21, 12:05 AM
There is not much deviation, the whole thing got started about the US government leaving thousands of weapons to the Taliban and Rockstar complaining about them wanting to regulate firearms to law abiding citizens here when they are perfectly happy to supply them to terrorists. :roll:
The Taliban take a captured $6m US-made Blackhawk helicopter for a joyride, and unveil more special forces with night vision - amid fears they have amassed 200,000 American-supplied guns and 150 aircraft
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9926797/Black-Hawk-Taliban-test-fly-captured-Afghan-air-force-UH-60-helicopter.html
Buddahaid
08-26-21, 12:58 AM
It's not US property. You can buy night vision equipment at Walmart and I think there are far more guns than that already in the country. The Afghan government couldn't maintain the Blackhawks without civilian contractors so I doubt the Taliban can either.
Rockstar
08-26-21, 05:06 AM
Isn't this thread about Afganistan? Argue gun control in the gun control thread.
I’m not arguing gun control I’m pointing out hypocrisy.
https://i.imgur.com/vafqnOV.jpg
Skybird
08-26-21, 05:50 AM
^ :haha:
Skybird
08-26-21, 05:51 AM
Meanwhile there are concerns of a severe terror threat at the airport in Kabul. Britons and Americans seem to expect an attack any time.
Skybird
08-26-21, 06:00 AM
The last German A400M with civilians from Kabul has landed in Taschkent. Three more flights will follow until tomorrow, but these are for the German soldiers and their military equipment.
The German participation in civil evacuations is practically over.
Jimbuna
08-26-21, 06:11 AM
Western countries warn of a terrorist attack on Kabul airport in Afghanistan where thousands are gathered.
UK Armed Forces Minister James Heappey tells BBC the threat is "severe"
There are no details of the threat, thought to be from so-called Islamic State militants.
The warning comes as efforts to evacuate people seeking to flee the country enter their final phase.
So far, more than 80,000 people have been flown out - with more than 10,000 currently awaiting at Kabul airport.
Up to 1,500 Americans may still need evacuating from the airport, which is controlled by US troops.
Westerners and Afghans who worked for foreign missions want to leave after Taliban militants came back to power.
The US aims to complete the evacuation - and US troop pull-out - by a 31 August deadline agreed with the Taliban.
There are fears thousands of Afghans who wish to flee may be left behind.
There is not much deviation, the whole thing got started about the US government leaving thousands of weapons to the Taliban and Rockstar complaining about them wanting to regulate firearms to law abiding citizens here when they are perfectly happy to supply them to terrorists.
Isn't that statement a bit misleading?
It is my understanding that the U.S. provided those weapons and that other gear to the Afghan government so that the could defend themselves & their citizens against the Taliban. (something the Afghan army had no intention of doing in light of the speed in which they capitulated to the Taliban).
Jimbuna
08-26-21, 07:19 AM
The "overwhelming majority" of eligible people have now been evacuated from Afghanistan by the UK, the prime minister has said.
Boris Johnson said about 15,000 people had been flown out of the capital, Kabul, but that the time remaining for evacuation efforts was "quite short".
It comes amid a race to evacuate thousands before foreign troops depart.
One minister warned earlier that there could be a "highly lethal" terror attack at Kabul airport within hours.
Speaking during a visit to the British military's Permanent Joint Headquarters in north London, where he met troops involved in evacuation efforts, Mr Johnson said the UK's airlift would "keep going for as long we can".
He added: "In the time we have left, which may be - as I'm sure everybody can appreciate - quite short, we'll do everything we can to get everybody else."
The US has set a deadline of 31 August for the withdrawal of its troops, with President Joe Biden rejecting calls from Prime Minister Boris Johnson and other allies for an extension.
Kabul airport is currently being defended and run by the US, which has 5,800 troops on the ground - with the help of more than 1,000 UK troops.
Earlier, Armed Forces minister James Heappey declined to give a date for the last UK evacuation flights, but said it was likely that UK and other foreign troops would have to leave before the last American airlifts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58339762
Jimbuna
08-26-21, 07:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiGvVSu3C-g
Buddahaid
08-26-21, 08:22 AM
I’m not arguing gun control I’m pointing out hypocrisy.
What hypocrisy? I didn't know Afganistan was subject to US domestic law.
Meanwhile there are concerns of a severe terror threat at the airport in Kabul. Britons and Americans seem to expect an attack any time.
The Danish news channel has just reported that there has been an explosion at or near the airport. So far it's unknown how many dead and wounded there is.
Markus
Skybird
08-26-21, 09:28 AM
Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Canada and Netherlands say they will end their operation soon. France to follow Friday.
Also answers further the earlier question of who has troops on the ground there.
The explosion was a suicide attack. Number of casualties unknown. I tip on ISKP.
Otto Harkaman
08-26-21, 11:01 AM
Yes absolutely correct everything was left for the Afghan government and with this soft reboot the new Afghan government will hopefully get good use out of them.
Jimbuna
08-26-21, 11:50 AM
There have been twin bomb attacks at Kabul airport with unconfirmed reports of at least 10 deaths.
Explosions took place outside the Abbey Gate - where US and British forces have been stationed - and at a nearby hotel.
The Pentagon said there have been a number of US and civilian casualties in what was a "complex" attack.
It came after warnings that there could be militant attacks, as nations evacuate people ahead of a 31 August deadline.
UK Armed Forces Minister James Heappey earlier told the BBC the threat was "severe" and could be "imminent"
Meanwhile Canada joined several European nations in wrapping up evacuation operations.
Huge crowds of people have built up at Afghanistan's border with Pakistan as people try to flee Taliban rule.
Westerners and Afghans who worked for foreign missions want to leave after Taliban militants came back to power.
Onkel Neal
08-26-21, 12:37 PM
That didn't take long.
Multiple U.S. troops were killed and others wounded when two explosions shook the area outside Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul in rapid succession this morning, where the United States and NATO allies had been evacuating thousands of people from the city, two U.S. officials told POLITICO.
“We can confirm that the explosion at the Abbey Gate was the result of a complex attack that resulted in a number of US & civilian casualties,” tweeted Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby, referring to the entrance to the airport, where four sources tell POLITICO that U.S. personnel until recently welcomed American citizens to board evacuation flights.
Kirby also confirmed a second explosion at or near the Baron Hotel, roughly 300 meters from the site of the first detonation. British troops had been using the hotel as a base for evacuating UK personnel.
An ISIS militant wearing a suicide vest was responsible for the first bombing, two U.S. officials and a person familiar with the situation told POLITICO, detonating around 5 p.m. local time just outside Abbey gate. Three sources said the U.S. troops returned fire soon after.
Rockstar
08-26-21, 12:42 PM
What hypocrisy? I didn't know Afganistan was subject to US domestic law.
Golly, I didn’t know hypocrisy was defined by a U.S. Code of law.
Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.
Doesn’t matter where you live.
Restricting the rights of others in one place while making them available to kill people trying escape another place Is IMO hypocrisy.
Bilge_Rat
08-26-21, 12:45 PM
Apparently 4 U.S. Marines dead, 3 wounded, no word yet on civilian casualties.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to prevent that sort of attack with the current situation around the airport.
Golly, I didn’t know hypocrisy was defined by a U.S. Code of law.
Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.
Doesn’t matter where you live.
Restricting the rights of others in one place while making them available to kill people trying escape another place Is IMO hypocrisy.
Only because you don't understand jurisdiction, criminal behavior or sovereignty. Then you can throw around any word you want to express your emotional viewpoint. :up:
Aktungbby
08-26-21, 12:52 PM
Nuthin' bad goes outta style We got caught doing a British Empire nation building thing in Afghanistan and the Fiasco still resonates from the first time...in 1842 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Remnants_of_an_army2.jpg/1920px-Remnants_of_an_army2.jpg <'Remnants of an Army' by Elizabeth Butler portraying William Brydon arriving at the gates of Jalalabad as the only survivor of a 16,500 strong evacuation from Kabul in January 1842. Supposedly Brydon was the last survivor of the approximately 16,000 soldiers and camp followers from the 1842 retreat from Kabul in the First Anglo-Afghan War, and is shown toiling the last few miles to safety on an exhausted and dying horse. In fact a few other stragglers from the army eventually arrived, and larger numbers were eventually released or rescued after spending time as captives of Afghan forces. The Russians marched out in retreat;
and we can't learn from the mistakes of others??!!:doh:
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