If you can't add 3D models yet, then why rush the mod out?

[CaptainCruise]

Maybe Im missing the point, but if it's not possible to add the correct 3-D models to the game at this point in time, then why bother uploading new ship mods that are basically just renamed ships with tweaked files? All you have when you're done is the name of a ship with someone else's capabilities. Why not just shelve the mod *temporarily* until the time comes when it's possible to add brand new 3-D models to the game and have a brand new ship with historically accurate capabilities? I understand that these are still cool mods as they are now, it just hit me while I was reading the info on one uploaded new ship mod that it's not actually the new ship, just a new name.
Don't get me wrong please....I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. These mods you guys do are awesome and help keep SUBSIM fresh and alive.....and not to mention DRASTICALLY improve gameplay!! (Any SH 3,4,5 players hearing that?? lol) Thanks guys.

CaptainCruise.....a bubblehead original
:subsim:


***Does it look like new 3D models will be coming in the future, or is this particular game gonna be tough to add new 3D models to??***

[Skyhigh]

What?

The new subs have completely different characteristics.
You can change anything, from sluggishness to weapon loadout to length, displacement, turn rate, noise levels blabla.

The 3D models are just eye candy really. Useless for performance.

[The Bandit]

Maybe Im missing the point, but if it's not possible to add the correct 3-D models to the game at this point in time, then why bother uploading new ship mods that are basically just renamed ships with tweaked files? All you have when you're done is the name of a ship with someone else's capabilities. Why not just shelve the mod *temporarily* until the time comes when it's possible to add brand new 3-D models to the game and have a brand new ship with historically accurate capabilities? I understand that these are still cool mods as they are now, it just hit me while I was reading the info on one uploaded new ship mod that it's not actually the new ship, just a new name.
Don't get me wrong please....I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. These mods you guys do are awesome and help keep SUBSIM fresh and alive.....and not to mention DRASTICALLY improve gameplay!! (Any SH 3,4,5 players hearing that?? lol) Thanks guys.

CaptainCruise.....a bubblehead original
:subsim:


***Does it look like new 3D models will be coming in the future, or is this particular game gonna be tough to add new 3D models to??***

Well, my biggest reason here is that while the devs are modder friendly, with the Unity engine, that day when we can finally add 3d models may never come.

[CaptainCruise]

That's exactly what I'm talking about....eye candy. I'm not that excited with playing a Gato class SS sub that has the characteristics of a Gato and the looks of a Soviet nuke era Foxtrot sub. I'm talking about using a ship that is a completely new 3D platform in the game and then tweak it.....accurate looks and historically accurate performance. Sure, I know you can take any platform in the game and tweak it to act like anything you want, but in the end it's still a tweaked something. Some of us like a little "eye candy" from time to time. :up:

The game is still fairly new and from what I've heard so far it's not possible yet to add new 3D models to the game. That's OK.....we've got some of he best modders in the game here. Someone will figure it out. Maybe the dev team will take pity on us and let the modders create new 3D models, tho that's a stretch.


"CC"
:subsim:

[CaptainCruise]

Well, my biggest reason here is that while the devs are modder friendly, with the Unity engine, that day when we can finally add 3d models may never come.


Wow...that's unfortunate. I know most dev's are not likely to release too many secrets to the public, but being able to add new 3D modes, especially the quality yourself and the other modders here are capable of is a huge plus to the game. Then you add in the gameplay and graphics, sound, etc, mods to go with it and you have a whole new world of gameplay.

I hope things work out for you guys. I've been here a lot of years and the stuff I see you guys produce never stops amazing me. You and your mod brudda's and sisters are truly hero's with your work, and I'd like to say thank you for your time and effort you devote to this. Good luck in the future. :up:


"CC"
:subsim:

[cj95]

From my understanding the no-3d models was a design decision by the devs.

Obviously the ability to add models exists (otherwise the devs wouldn't have added stuff) but that's its somehow encrypted or encoded to not allow 3rd party models.

Im no programmer but I don't buy the line that the engine itself is at fault.

(But what do I know)


..(I also am holding off using mods until we get proper models...If it acts like a Gato and looks like a Ruskie....ummm...sorry..Lost my immersion)

[The Bandit]

From my understanding the no-3d models was a design decision by the devs.

Obviously the ability to add models exists (otherwise the devs wouldn't have added stuff) but that's its somehow encrypted or encoded to not allow 3rd party models.

Im no programmer but I don't buy the line that the engine itself is at fault.

(But what do I know)


..(I also am holding off using mods until we get proper models...If it acts like a Gato and looks like a Ruskie....ummm...sorry..Lost my immersion)


To the best of my knowledge they didn't deliberately obfuscate the game to prevent this, its more or less a trade-off / consequence for how things were done.

I.E. it was more advantageous for them to use Unity and live with the detractors than it was to go an alternate route.

[Skyhigh]

Some of us like a little "eye candy" from time to time. :up:



So, Captain, the right thing to do here was just say: "hey guys, I, CaptainCruise, am going to hold out with the mods until I can get accurate 3D models, whereas someone who wants to try a sub with different characteristics can do whatever he wants"

Instead of saying Modders should hold out because you like eye candy... Sorry, I am a bit baffled here :)

[cj95]

To the best of my knowledge they didn't deliberately obfuscate the game to prevent this, its more or less a trade-off / consequence for how things were done.

I.E. it was more advantageous for them to use Unity and live with the detractors than it was to go an alternate route.



??? Wait....if the engine prevents adding models...then how did they add models to begin with? Did they make all the 3d stuff for the game and all of the sudden forget how to do it?

Again, I'm no programmer but that doesn't make sense to my tiny brain. If it was possible to add models in the first place, then it should still be possible unless of course the devs are using some program that modders do not have access to, or.... chose to encrypt stuff so as to add DLC later.

(which Im totally cool with BTW....I'd pay for some nice diesels and NATO nukes)

Anyway...not my field...better shut up.:hmmm:

[Decho]

??? Wait....if the engine prevents adding models...then how did they add models to begin with? Did they make all the 3d stuff for the game and all of the sudden forget how to do it?

Again, I'm no programmer but that doesn't make sense to my tiny brain. If it was possible to add models in the first place, then it should still be possible unless of course the devs are using some program that modders do not have access to, or.... chose to encrypt stuff so as to add DLC later.

(which Im totally cool with BTW....I'd pay for some nice diesels and NATO nukes)

Anyway...not my field...better shut up.:hmmm:

Basically the devs can add models because they have the unpackaged Unity project file, which contains all of the source code and models and everything which is in the game. When they package a build of the game Unity turns this all into neat files which can't really be modded. So the only way for them to let us add 3d models would involve them giving us the full source code of the game which wouldn't be a particularly sound business decision.

So yeah basically they have access to stuff that modders don't, but they also can't really give it out, even if they wanted to allow modders to add 3d models.

They could quite easily have folded in all of the ship specs and mission files into the packaged unity files, so they have actually done modders a service by having that type of thing so accessible. Note also that it is possible to set up a Unity game in such a way that 3d models are kept outside the packaged files, but this involves quite a lot of extra work.

[The Bandit]

Basically the devs can add models because they have the unpackaged Unity project file, which contains all of the source code and models and everything which is in the game. When they package a build of the game Unity turns this all into neat files which can't really be modded. So the only way for them to let us add 3d models would involve them giving us the full source code of the game which wouldn't be a particularly sound business decision.

So yeah basically they have access to stuff that modders don't, but they also can't really give it out, even if they wanted to allow modders to add 3d models.

They could quite easily have folded in all of the ship specs and mission files into the packaged unity files, so they have actually done modders a service by having that type of thing so accessible. Note also that it is possible to set up a Unity game in such a way that 3d models are kept outside the packaged files, but this involves quite a lot of extra work.

Perfect explanation, thanks

[CaptainCruise]

So, Captain, the right thing to do here was just say: "hey guys, I, CaptainCruise, am going to hold out with the mods until I can get accurate 3D models, whereas someone who wants to try a sub with different characteristics can do whatever he wants"

Instead of saying Modders should hold out because you like eye candy... Sorry, I am a bit baffled here :)


Geez.....you're putting words in my mouth. I NEVER told anyone to pass on these types of mods because that's what "big badass CaptainCruise" thinks they should do. Sheesh...who gave me that right??? I would never do such a thing. All I was trying to say was if I decide to try a download of new ships that didn't come pre-packaged with the game, I would PREFER to use new 3D model ships with accurate specs instead of a renaming one ship and changing the specs so it walks and talks like something else. I don't want to look at a Ohio class SSBN and have someone tell me its a Ohio skin re-tweaked to George Washington SSBN specs. They don't look alike and my choice would be to use what the game gave me. That's just me.....everyone here is entitled to use the game the way they want and if they are happy using a tweaked platform like this, then by all means make yourself a happy camper and use them. I'm sure they are great mods and perform like the ship they are named for would perform. The modders here deliver great stuff and everyone should be able to find something that's makes them happy. As for me I like the ability to use the Soviet subs the game has in missions and campaigns. I especially want to get my paws on one of those Oscar SSGN tubs. Now that's a beast of a sub.....and it even looks like an Oscar!! :yeah:

"CC"
:subsim:

[CaptainCruise]

??? Wait....if the engine prevents adding models...then how did they add models to begin with? Did they make all the 3d stuff for the game and all of the sudden forget how to do it?

Again, I'm no programmer but that doesn't make sense to my tiny brain. If it was possible to add models in the first place, then it should still be possible unless of course the devs are using some program that modders do not have access to, or.... chose to encrypt stuff so as to add DLC later.

(which Im totally cool with BTW....I'd pay for some nice diesels and NATO nukes)

Anyway...not my field...better shut up.:hmmm:


Maybe you hit on it....they may plan to release new 3D model platforms in the future as part of a DLC plan to make a few $$$. Wouldn't be the first time this was done. I'd also probably buy something.

I also play World of Warships and World of Tanks and EVERYTHING is DLC!!! :timeout: Gets crazy if your not careful.

I see you live in Texas. Ever get to have a beer with the Onkel Neal? I love that big 'ole redneck hillbilly. Known him quite a few years now and he does so much for SUBSIM and all of us. :Kaleun_Cheers:

[CaptainCruise]

Well, my biggest reason here is that while the devs are modder friendly, with the Unity engine, that day when we can finally add 3d models may never come.


Is it possible the Devs may be interested in some kind of trade for services? You guys do the 3D stuff, the historically accurate specs, etc...they have the right to include your work in future releases of the game or something to that effect? I dunno, I get the feeling I'm really reaching here. For that matter would you as a modder be interested in some kind of trade like that? Would that hurt or possibly help you in any way? Just curious......thanks.

Tom "CC"
:subsim:

[FPSchazly]

From what I've gathered talking to the devs, they want to release a few DLC first and not compete with their community. Then, at some point in the future, the game will be opened up to 3D modeling. Don't quote me on this, but that's the gist I got.

[Julhelm]

Basically the issue is that there is no way to import models or rgba textures the way Unity is set up. To allow it, we would have to write our own custom mesh and texture importer.

[The Bandit]

I appreciate your kind words but my skills as a "modder" are greatly exaggerated. "Text editor and avid user of Wikipedia" pretty much sums up most of goes into my mod. As far as trade and compensation from the devs / publisher while on the surface it sounds like a good idea it would likely open up so many cans of worms for them its not something I'd expect anybody to entertain.

That being said though, I'd like to think that this sort of thing serves itself, I put something together that I can have fun playing with and maybe spark a few ideas. Not going to be so bold as to claim that people are buying the game because of the work I've done, but you have to wonder how many sales happened because people saw Captain Jive Turkey flying around the Norwegian Sea in an Alfa the other day. Again this sort of thing serves itself here because each new purchase brings the game that much closer to DLC viability and continued development.

I'm loath to speak for them but if I had to guess I'd say that Cold Waters has probably had a meteoric rise and smashed sales projections and the like, but again no small part of that is the devs having foresight to make the game very modder friendly to grow this community around it.

[SeaCadt07]

More subs! This seems like a no brainer for DLC so I suspect it will come sooner or later. The base game as a platform is sound, even though I know they are tweaking the ai and stuff

[CaptainCruise]

I appreciate your kind words but my skills as a "modder" are greatly exaggerated. "Text editor and avid user of Wikipedia" pretty much sums up most of goes into my mod. As far as trade and compensation from the devs / publisher while on the surface it sounds like a good idea it would likely open up so many cans of worms for them its not something I'd expect anybody to entertain.

That being said though, I'd like to think that this sort of thing serves itself, I put something together that I can have fun playing with and maybe spark a few ideas. Not going to be so bold as to claim that people are buying the game because of the work I've done, but you have to wonder how many sales happened because people saw Captain Jive Turkey flying around the Norwegian Sea in an Alfa the other day. Again this sort of thing serves itself here because each new purchase brings the game that much closer to DLC viability and continued development.

I'm loath to speak for them but if I had to guess I'd say that Cold Waters has probably had a meteoric rise and smashed sales projections and the like, but again no small part of that is the devs having foresight to make the game very modder friendly to grow this community around it.


I think I saw that Jive Turkey vid on YouTube. Great stuff. I'm a big fan of Mr. Jingles!!! :up:


Well said. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if you were right on the money about Cold Waters sales above the Devs predictions and a lot of that having to do with the mods that come from the community. Look what happened with SH5 I think it was. The game was broke-ass dead and they released a total clunker, but the mods teams got to work on it and fixed so many issues and improved gameplay b leaps and bounds. No one was buying the game as it was released. The SUBSIM forums were alive with players who wouldn't buy he game as it was and waited until it could be improved. I know I was one of them who waited over a year I think. Regardless of what happens, things are better than they may have been. All the interest and mods we bring to this game will only benefit it in the long run.

Now I need to go find a Jingles or J. Turk vid on how to use VLS with Soviet player ships!!! Was playing the Oscar and found my target, tried to fire VLS but got a could not fire message. Couldn't figure out how to shoot VLS, and had no option but to scrap the game. They found me while I wasn't paying attention and ate 6 torps. Ack!!

[The Bandit]

I think I saw that Jive Turkey vid on YouTube. Great stuff. I'm a big fan of Mr. Jingles!!! :up:


Well said. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if you were right on the money about Cold Waters sales above the Devs predictions and a lot of that having to do with the mods that come from the community. Look what happened with SH5 I think it was. The game was broke-ass dead and they released a total clunker, but the mods teams got to work on it and fixed so many issues and improved gameplay b leaps and bounds. No one was buying the game as it was released. The SUBSIM forums were alive with players who wouldn't buy he game as it was and waited until it could be improved. I know I was one of them who waited over a year I think. Regardless of what happens, things are better than they may have been. All the interest and mods we bring to this game will only benefit it in the long run.

Now I need to go find a Jingles or J. Turk vid on how to use VLS with Soviet player ships!!! Was playing the Oscar and found my target, tried to fire VLS but got a could not fire message. Couldn't figure out how to shoot VLS, and had no option but to scrap the game. They found me while I wasn't paying attention and ate 6 torps. Ack!!

JT just had an Oscar out yesterday morning IIRC, go check his latest stuff on youtube.

[CaptainCruise]

Basically the issue is that there is no way to import models or rgba textures the way Unity is set up. To allow it, we would have to write our own custom mesh and texture importer.

Hi Julhelm. Thank you for the reply. I'm sorry, I didn't realize at first you are a Cold Waters Dev. While rereading the thread I noticed your avatar.

I understand what you're saying about how Unity is currently set up and that it's not possible to import 3rd party models. I'm not a modder or computer programmer so maybe what I'm gonna say is off the wall, but is there any possibility maybe sometime in the future a dev kit can be developed for purchase that would allow 3rd party modders the ability to design new 3D models and import them into the game? I apologize if what I'm asking is ridiculous or just completely off the wall. Like I said, I'm not a programmer so I have no idea what would be involved, other than a lot of hard work I'm sure. If not a Dev kit, is it possible we may see new models in the future as DLC?
Cold Waters seems to have struck a chord here, and it seems like many members of SUBSIM have purchased the game or plan to. The mod teams have already uploaded quite a few mods in a short period of time, and already players want more. (I know, we're never satisfied...) :D Any insight you're allowed to talk about as to the future of Cold Waters would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.

Tom "CC"
:subsim:

[cj95]

Perfect explanation, thanks

Ditto on this. Appreciate it.

Again for the record, I fully support the DEVS in their plans for this area. The gave us a pretty good amount of subs in the base game and I wouldn't mind paying for some variety down the road.

Like it or not DLC is pretty much here to stay.



RE: A Beer with Neal:

Never had the pleasure sorry to say. I seem to recall multiple years ago I was supposed to meet up with him and a few other Subsim guys back when I was still helping with tours on the USS Texas, but I think I got reassigned to help another group so never met them. (Memory is fuzzy)

[longface]

Also not a programmer, but would it be possible for our community of awesome modders to create models in Unity and submit them to the devs somehow? Or is that impractical/impossible?

[Capt Jack Harkness]

...but is there any possibility maybe sometime in the future a dev kit can be developed for purchase that would allow 3rd party modders the ability to design new 3D models and import them into the game?
I think there's an untapped market there. Not for Cold Waters specifically but in general. Many games support modding and some games are supported by modding, but outside of the Bethesda RPGs developers rarely, if ever, build professional tools for modding their games. I imagine that's because such tools are made at a loss because they're provided for free and the predicted increase in sales typically won't justify that loss but if they were sold separately for a price people could afford they may be able to pay for the development themselves.

[Izrid]

I posted something similar and got chewed out for it =/

[The Bandit]

I posted something similar and got chewed out for it =/

Nope, what you said was actually quite a bit more ignorant, basically came off as "Your mod sucks because you can't do something (which is actually impossible)." I hope you learned something from the response that you got. =/

Also, I think the larger point here is that while not everyone likes the aesthetic choice of having to look at stand in (in many cases mostly Soviet) submarine models, these are the same people who will likely clamor for a mod if the day comes that models can be added and some of this stuff starts looking more like it should.

[Izrid]

Yes, I've learnt that here one must kowtow and keep any criticisms to yourself.

[The Bandit]

Yes, I've learnt that here one must kowtow and keep any criticisms to yourself.

Nope, clearly learned nothing but still desperately seeking attention.

[phelan1777]

Nope, clearly learned nothing but still desperately seeking attention.

:Kaleun_Salute::Kaleun_Applaud::Kaleun_Cheers:

[EnjoyableSTIG]

Please just ignore the source of the disturbance. The mods I've played with new subs have been excellent.

[zachanscom]

not just new subs but high polygon high detail versions of existing subs.

this is what i saw on steam so people are somehow messing with the game and creating some artifacts that resemble new model parts

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/861731682084656573/153B5F0E7455A788DD7928FFD8782852CA205FA8/

[EnjoyableSTIG]

I made my duct a more realistic size.

(Seawolf modified from 2004 mod and placed into Russian subs mod)

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/866235858457828408/EEE08BDB557DF4D02E792D74F763DE0E2F1FB8E2/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|2048:864&composite-to%3D%2A%2C%2A%7C2048%3A864&background-color=black