Still Confused about detecting ships

[Stevan_Segal]

So I have read the tutorial as well as watched some videos online but I am still confused on how to classify and detect ships so that I can target them. Each thing I've read or watched seemed to describe each station individually but would like to try and find something that puts everything together and takes you through the steps from when you first discover a contact and how to classify it and target it (if it's hostile). Anyone know of a good tutorial?

Thanks

[Mike Abberton]

Assuming that you really do mean ships (not boats or subs), you generally have 3 or 4 ways to classify surface ships.

Narrowband Sonar - Comparison of the narrowband tonals to the class-specific frequency charts (either in game or with a printed out paper chart)

ESM Mast - If you place the cursor on the wedge as it appears in the ESM screen, a classification will pop up in the window. Not always conclusive if there are a lot of signals overlapping.

Periscope - A lot of people overlook this. I know I did when I started playing DW. I had it in my mind that modern subs "never" use the scope, but against surface ships it is a critical tool.

Active Intercept - In stock DW, I don' think you can meaningfully use the active sonar intercept screen for classification (but you can for tracking/TMA). In both the Reinforced Alert and the LWAMI mods, active sonar intercepts can be used for classification by comparing the sonar frequency noted on the screen with the platform data.

Mike

[Delgard]

I guess I need to use the Narrowband sonar more. Is that the sonar on the side of the boat?

[FPSchazly]

I guess I need to use the Narrowband sonar more. Is that the sonar on the side of the boat?

No, the narrowband is just processing of the broadband signal. Although we only say DEMON for the speed readout in sonar in Dangerous Waters, DEMON is what makes narrowband possible, as well. It stands for DE MOdulatioN. It's much easier to see frequencies over long range (narrowband) than general noise (broadband) because things in nature don't emit distinct, consistent frequencies. The three panels on the side of the Seawolf and Virginia are the Wide Aperture Array (WAA), and the tube-looking thing running the long axis of the LA is where the towed array is stored.

[speed150mph]

As others have mentioned, ships and subs have very different procedures to classify, with ships being easier since you have more options and the generally make more noise.

Determining surface vs sub contact is fairly easy unless at very long range. Listen on broadband, turn on sound and use the mark 1 ear drum. If you hear a loud hissing sound, it's generally going to be a surface ship, if it's making a quiet thrumming bass sound, that is most likely a submerged contact. And if it's making a buzzing whinny sound, that's a torpedo and it's time to run like hell. Now I'll break down what I do with each.

Surface contact

First thing I do I quickly guage distance (how loud the noise is) and type of ship (most in game cargo ships will make a distinctly different noise then a fast screw ship like a powerboat or a warship) I use that to prioritize what contacts to focus on and determine if they may be an immediate threat. If they are, try to take evasive maneuvers to avoid detection and get some space.

Assuming they arnt an immediate threat I turn so my sub is positioned so the contact is between 30-60 degrees off my bow. This allows me to point my bow, hull, and towed array at him while keeping as small a sonar profile as possible in case he goes active. Try and acquire him on all three arrays to triangulate his position faster and with better accuracy. This also allows you to get a better ID passively as the different sensors tend to pick up different frequencys. I get a preliminary ID and then if he's distant enough to now worry me I go to periscope depth.

At periscope depth I start off with my ESM antenna. This will get you a quick ID unless their running emcon conditions. If that's the case I raise periscope and try to grab a picture. Do this stuff quick as your easier to pick up in the surface duct and periscope make good targets.

I look at all the data I have, try and classify. If I can't identify then I slowly creep closer until I can.

Then you do your TMA if you know how, or you wait until the auto crew gets it right (ie the solution speed matches the demon display speed, bearing matches, range looks about right) once your confident it's correct, feel free to engage.

Submerged contact.

With a submerged contact it's a lot harder. Start off the same way as with the ship. Put him 30-60 degrees off the bow, and try and triangulate him with your sensors. Try to get an ID with narrowband frequencies.

If there is a layer, purpous over and under the layer. This will tell you if he is above or below the layer and give you a depth range.

Once you match the ID, get a solid solution. Then engage.

Hope that helps some

[p7p8]

Try and acquire him on all three arrays to triangulate his position faster and with better accuracy.
This is first good advice in your comment.


Once you match the ID, get a solid solution. Then engage.
Hope that helps some
And this is second and last good advice.

All rest is wrong.

[Delgard]

Playing the campaign scenarios can be a challenge simply by understanding the intent of the orders. The intel weenies can be slacking in their writing, too. But, what do you expect from shore ****ters?

[Nippelspanner]

Playing the campaign scenarios can be a challenge simply by understanding the intent of the orders. The intel weenies can be slacking in their writing, too. But, what do you expect from shore ****ters?
The campaign is really lackluster, mildly spoken. While the original story is great, the missions are ridiculous. Some are completed in a matter of minutes. I mean... what?
I feel the designer(s) went overboard by trying to make it multi-platform playable. Quality suffered a lot from it.

I'd love to provide something better, but the editor is really uncomfortable to work with and doesn't leave too many possibilities. Still, working on something, though.

[Delgard]

Ahh, life ain't so bad. I have learned to do basic editing to experience different things. Plus, seems like a lot of downloads. Always nice to nag on the landlubbers. Their cable TV and McDonalds! Ack!

[Wildcat]

There is a very detailed manual called The Red Book available on this site in the downloads section.

It was written originally for 688i and Sub Command, if I remember correctly.

It is filled with VERY good information, especially regarding detection and strategy and tactics.

Unfortunately it was written heavily with multiplayer engagements in mind, so you have to consider that when playing offline, but the advice is still all very solid. It also covers manual TMA. Most people can do manual TMA if they are forced to, but the red book discusses a few situations in which you should switch to manual TMA in order to make a faster and better attack on a dynamic target like a submarine or player controlled FFG.

Very good manual, it is of higher quality than a lot of books you can buy on Amazon yet it is free. Download it ASAP and read it front to back a couple of times and you'll be sinking everything around you.

[Nexus7]

speed150mph gave an extensive description already (I wonder what p7p8 considers wrong?).

This is exclusively for subs:
Classification in general is a difficult task, perhaps more difficult than TMA. Using NB with spherical, hull, and towed array will help discriminate. To listen at the sound is a good idea, I've never used it as a classification tool, I assume it requires the experience. Does it really function for submerged too? Gotta try.

It was not mentioned but the DEMON can give you the number of blades of the contact's propeller; gotta remember that depending on signal strength you might not get all the "lines". USNI reference usually contains that info for the modelled platforms.
Perhaps weird, but the HF sonar is another visive classification tool. Is the target deaf, HF sonar can be a classification tool, especially interesting for sumberged.

[Nippelspanner]

Is the target deaf, HF sonar can be a classification tool, especially interesting for sumberged.
HF sonar cannot be detected in DW, unfortunately.
It is not really emitting anything because is programmed as a "visual" sensor.

And yes, of course you can classify by sound, partially.
However, if one is that close, enough NB frequency lines should be visible anyways.

[Nexus7]

And, sound for classification purposes can be the instant classification tool (biologics/mechanics discrimination). Is it my impression or biologics are very rare in DW missions if compared to Sub Command?

[Nippelspanner]

And, sound for classification purposes can be the instant classification tool (biologics/mechanics discrimination). Is it my impression or biologics are very rare in DW missions if compared to Sub Command?
Yes and no.
Stock missions don't have many biologics, as far as I know, but I find them frequently in user made missions, and I very often use them myself.
Shrimp are almost everywhere, and whales aren't that uncommon too, globally, so I mostly put them in.
For biologics discrimination, you can also switch to NB, btw.
No lines = biologic.

The reason why it is just partially good for classification is the lack of sounds per vessel. Not every vessel has its own set of sounds (though this could be done by database and .agg file editing), so a freighter sounds like an oiler for example, but it is good enough to keep warships from merchants apart.

However, as I said, once you can really hear them, you should have enough NB lines present to classify the contact manually.

[Nexus7]

There is an additional difficulty in classifying contacts, the same platform can be in the scenario below different flags, triggering different Rules of Engagement. I realize I am probably skipping a few steps in the current discourse, still it is not seldomly a situation. Well when it is surface you could be able (in theory) to see some crew members in the face at least :haha:

[Nippelspanner]

There is an additional difficulty in classifying contacts, the same platform can be in the scenario below different flags, triggering different Rules of Engagement. I realize I am probably skipping a few steps in the current discourse, still it is not seldomly a situation. Well when it is surface you could be able (in theory) to see some crew members in the face at least :haha:
I'm not aware of any missions where this problem comes up.
Since DW doesn't differentiate, this is usually circumvented by mission designers. It would be rather stupid to have a mission where you need to sink a certain vessel, yet said vessel appears multiple times.

There are ways to avoid this.
Either pick a unique vessel, or play with triggers.
Coincidentally, I am in the editor at the moment working on a mission where you need to sink 3 specific targets. For now, these targets are specific vessels, but I will probably add a few triggers that let you visually identify the target, so the player can be sure it is the right one.

[p7p8]

speed150mph gave an extensive description already (I wonder what p7p8 considers wrong?).

Hmm let's begin:
Determining surface vs sub contact is fairly easy unless at very long range.
This is not true. Ships in SP scenarios are often without EMCON and with high speed. This is NOT happen in MP game. Perry, Udaloy or Bergamini can also decrease speed to 4-6 kts. Surface units have advantage over sub at high speed - they can still to control situation while sub at high speed is deaf.


Listen on broadband, turn on sound...
This is completly wrong! Your main tool for detection is NARROWBAND low frequency sonar - on surf and sub platform.


First thing I do I quickly guage distance (how loud the noise is)
.
.
.
.

Then you do your TMA if you know how
Once again this is completly wrong. TMA work is mainly for determining range because bearing you have from sensor and direction (left or right) you have after small amount of time.


and then if he's distant enough to now worry me I go to periscope depth.(...)
I raise periscope and try to grab a picture
Playable surface units have very good TA sonars for identification - much better than submarines. That is because all "strings" on narrowband (LOFAR) are indexed. On screen below number "15" is Los Angeles Flt I class (60 235 325 991)

http://i.imgur.com/RA7L3WA.jpg

That means - if you are close enough for visual identiffication - you are probably detected.


At periscope depth I start off with my ESM antenna. This will get you a quick ID unless their running emcon conditions.
Almost all experienced surface players uses EMCON as long as they can 80%-90% of game.


I look at all the data I have, try and classify.
You should do this before giving tracker! Most scenarios have intel informations about enemy. Checking first and second string from acoustic signature is very helpfull before you mark contact.
For example:
- all russian units have first freq. 50 Hz
- second string gives you tonnage factor
- third string gives you engine type
If you looking for Akula class you should mark all 50 205 contacts. This combination is not common for other units.


If I can't identify then I slowly creep closer until I can.
Going slow is in most cases bad tactic. If you are slow i have only first string (50 or 60) but TMA gives me your predicted speed. If i have 3 contacts with only 60 Hz:
- 60 Hz moving 10 kts
- 60 Hz moving 12 kts
- 60 Hz moving 4 kts
...I send helo over third contact, because in most cases it is (newbie) player submarine.


As others have mentioned, ships and subs have very different procedures to classify, with ships being easier since you have more options

No, you have less options. Let's compare subs and surfs
- good TA sonar - both
- ESM - both
- Active Interception - Subs and not all surfs (Udaloy and Bergamini have it)
- Periscope/visual detection - both (but sub have better)
- Radar - both (but surfs have better)
- Sonobuoys - only surf
- Helo - only surf
- MAD form Helo - only surf
- Mast detection - only surf
- using sensors (ex: radar) from differend possition than your ship - only surf
- Nixie - only surf
- Decoys - only sub
- LINK all the time - surf
- Anti Ship Missiles - only sub
- SUBROCs - some surfs (Udaloy, Bergamini)

Of course ASM and SUBROCS against proper target. Subs have SUBROCs but cant use it against Surfs. Surfs have ASM but they are useless against subs ;)

Methods described by speed150mph looks like mix 2:1 (2 parts from Silent Hunter and one part from DW).

[Nippelspanner]

Fantastic post, good information!

[Nexus7]

Just I wonder how it's thinkable that subs have better visual and radar capabilities than surface

[p7p8]

Just I wonder how it's thinkable that subs have better visual and radar capabilities than surface

In my opinion surface units have better radar than submarines. Please read more carefully :)


- Radar - both (but surfs have better)


Periscopes have good magnification and sometimes IR and other modes. They can detect surfs from longer distance than surf can detect periscope mast, sail or even surfaced sub.

[Wildcat]

Using broadband sonar SOUND to get distance information is a ridiculous tactic in DW, the volume of the sound has nothing to do with the distance to a unit. There are many factors that come into play. Volume setting in the options screen, etc.

However if you're in a sub with a wide aperture array, you can use broadband to get instant ranging information if the signal is strong enough. WAA Range is quite accurate and you can pretty reliably make perfect TMA solutions with just the WAA range and broadband bearing.

[Nippelspanner]

Using broadband sonar SOUND to get distance information is a ridiculous tactic in DW
It is, but who said it would work?
Wasn't it mentioned in regards of classification only?

[Wildcat]

Speed150 mentioned that he tries to guess the range of the target ship by listening in on the broadband sonar.

It doesn't work in DW. DW does not handle the broadband sounds very well, in fact it doesn't handle sounds well in general, the sound code was kind of kludged together as an afterthought so there are a lot of unusual problems, pops and clicks, bad loops, random volume problems etc.

Also I don't think the wav files used for the sounds were normalized correctly, so that means that the base volume for some sounds is high, while the base volume for other sounds is low. Makes it absolutely useless for gauging the range of an object by sound.

A better way is to look at the strength and thickness of the contact on the broadband. A thick, bright bar (or spike, in the russian subs) means it's either very noisy or it's very close. Ditto with DEMON bars. Using DEMON in combination with the quality of the broadband signal you can start making range estimates to help speed up your TMA.

But in any case, you can get a target's range within 4 minutes by simply taking a bearing, changing course and taking another bearing 2 minutes later. Once more and you'll have a perfect TMA solution even if the target is moving. Good enough to hit with any kind of homing torpedo.

[Nexus7]

I am still confused on how to classify and detect ships so that I can target them

With a sub, the frigate or the P3 Orion?

[speed150mph]

I want to clarify a few things.

First when I said options, I wasn't talking about which platform has more detection capabilities, I'm referring to the number of options you have, as a submarine captain, to identify a surface target vs a submerged target.

Secondly, I did not mean to give you the idea that I can accurately determine range from broadband sound. In the first critical seconds of a mission, or in the quickplay mission, to see which ships are close and which are far. And in dw many merchants make a diffent sound then warships, and submarines have a very different sound then surface ships.

This gives me an idea of what ships to prioritize in the first seconds. You have to understand that a lot of my play comes from quick missions in RA, which sometimes will put you less then a mile from a hostile sub or ship. Seeing that you have a sub that close that definately heard you in 5 seconds vs 50 seconds means that you can begin setting up a snap shot and preparing evasive maneuvers before the torpedo in the water warning comes vs after. This is a survival mechanism. After I have made sure that there are no immediate threats close aboard, I can use my narrowband and TMA to classify and gain accurate solutions against confirmed warships.