View Full Version : Ferguson
Onkel Neal
11-18-14, 07:41 PM
This is an illusion Oberon I think. Look at Abramovich for example.
So with sufficient effort, talent and perseverance (and luck ofcourse) one could earn his place in society no matter where he comes from.
Agreed 1000%
I mean for every one Abramovich there's thousands, if not millions of people who never get further than the working as a mechanic at the local factory stage.
And who says success has to be CEO level? What's wrong with working in the local factory? That kid could easily work his way into a career in many vocations and earn a steady living. Keyword: earn.
Wolferz
11-19-14, 06:10 AM
Agreed 1000%
And who says success has to be CEO level? What's wrong with working in the local factory? That kid could easily work his way into a career in many vocations and earn a steady living. Keyword: earn.
Many people achieve success but, most only make it to succ.:yep:
Onkel Neal
11-20-14, 08:51 AM
This just in: Life is hard. :03:
As hard as we as a species make it. :03:
Onkel Neal
11-20-14, 09:54 AM
Yeah? That solves everything. Let's make everything easy. That should be easy.
Yeah? That solves everything. Let's make everything easy. That should be easy.
Would be nice, wouldn't it? :yep:
Onkel Neal
11-20-14, 10:29 AM
This reminds me of one of my kids wanting to know why Santa Claus didn't simply come every day, instead of once a year.
Think of the Elf overtime!:har:
Betonov
11-20-14, 10:37 AM
Yeah? That solves everything. Let's make everything easy. That should be easy.
We already made it easy for some. Politicians and welfare scroungers.
This reminds me of one of my kids wanting to know why Santa Claus didn't simply come every day, instead of once a year.
Think of the Elf overtime!:har:
It's all a manner of perception.
The kid has a roof over their head, a parent who loves them, food on the table, clean water from the tap, a place to defecate that doesn't go straight into the same water you drink and bathe in. And they have that every single day. :o
Of course, because society takes this for granted people don't realise that they do have christmas every day, that everyday that they're in relative comfort is a day that's better than many others. Instead we look around, see that someone else has something better than us and we want that, and a whole system has been worked up to take advantage of that desire in order to meet other peoples desire. Consume, produce, produce, consume, in such levels that eventually you're running just to stand still.
We've made the rod for our own backs, we make machines to make our lives easier and yet still manage to find a way to make our lives harder and more stressful.
We're a strange species. :haha:
That being said, you can agree that we would not have this level of luxury if it wasn't for the hard work of others. Everyone has their place in the maintenance of the said luxury, however the question is, does everyone receive the fruits of their effort in said equality?
Does Neal the truck driver get the same wage as the man who owns the company he drives for? I doubt it, and yet without Neal and his fellow drivers, the man who owns the company wouldn't have a company to own!
A curious thing about capitalism that's never made sense to me, the most important parts of it receive less attention. :hmmm:
Betonov
11-20-14, 11:09 AM
Does Neal the truck driver get the same wage as the man who owns the company he drives for? I doubt it, and yet without Neal and his fellow drivers, the man who owns the company wouldn't have a company to own!
Problem today is that the owner gets a disproportionally higher wage that fits his position and Neal gets a disproportionally low wage that he deserves.
ikalugin
11-20-14, 11:24 AM
Problem today is that the owner gets a disproportionally higher wage that fits his position and Neal gets a disproportionally low wage that he deserves.
Scandinavian countries may suit you then.
Betonov
11-20-14, 11:39 AM
Scandinavian countries may suit you then.
Yep.
I always handled cold better than heat.
If an option opens I'm outta here
Onkel Neal
11-20-14, 10:34 PM
That being said, you can agree that we would not have this level of luxury if it wasn't for the hard work of others. Everyone has their place in the maintenance of the said luxury, however the question is, does everyone receive the fruits of their effort in said equality?
Does Neal the truck driver get the same wage as the man who owns the company he drives for? I doubt it, and yet without Neal and his fellow drivers, the man who owns the company wouldn't have a company to own!
A curious thing about capitalism that's never made sense to me, the most important parts of it receive less attention. :hmmm:
Seriously? You don't understand why the CEO of my company makes more than me, one of 12,000 drivers?
I give up.
Armistead
11-20-14, 11:02 PM
That being said, you can agree that we would not have this level of luxury if it wasn't for the hard work of others. Everyone has their place in the maintenance of the said luxury, however the question is, does everyone receive the fruits of their effort in said equality?
Does Neal the truck driver get the same wage as the man who owns the company he drives for? I doubt it, and yet without Neal and his fellow drivers, the man who owns the company wouldn't have a company to own!
A curious thing about capitalism that's never made sense to me, the most important parts of it receive less attention. :hmmm:
Well, I sold my business years ago, once working about 200 people. I ran a large commercial paint/drywall business. I worked for a large contractor for 23 years as the Sr Project Manager, planned to retire there. The son took it over when the father died and shut it down. Not knowing what to do I took all our money and invested in a business of my own. I really no longer had a office job in a suit, I went out and worked daily with my one crew, then I came home and worked all night doing paperwork. For two years my family did nothing, it all was getting the business going. I worked 7 days a week, usually 15 hours during the week and all weekend bidding. As I grew, I was able to be more like a owner and in years it took off, but I worked my ass off and risk all. Now, I wasn't a rich CEO, best years I made 2-300K and we improved our life. I never made more than 80K at the job of 23 years. Luckily I invested a lot of that because I was later stricken with a nerve disease.
One, if business owners and CEO's didn't make good money, no one would run the businesses. The competitive markets determine wages. My employees made about 12-22 bucks per hour and I never felt guilty giving them a job regardless of the money I made. It was the goal that with hard work I could better my life that made me want to do it...
em2nought
11-21-14, 12:34 AM
Does Neal the truck driver get the same wage as the man who owns the company he drives for? Neal could be driving for a company that has two trucks. The guy that put up the money for the trucks could have paid for it with profits from his other business. He might only get $10,000 a year from the trucking company while his drivers make around $50,000 each. But then we wouldn't have an evil capitalist for do nothing politicians to throw under the bus. Know your enemy guys. :03:
[..]welfare scroungers.
Depends. Over here, when I was on unemployment cashmoneythingamalingwhatsamacallit, I got about 500 euros per month. After bills, I had about 200-250 euros to spend. You can live, but you can't spend much on anything else than living. Welfare is pretty much the same thing.
Except, of course, if you are an immigrant, they you'll bathe in money because [reasons].
ikalugin
11-21-14, 08:27 AM
Depends. Over here, when I was on unemployment cashmoneythingamalingwhatsamacallit, I got about 500 euros per month. After bills, I had about 200-250 euros to spend. You can live, but you can't spend much on anything else than living. Welfare is pretty much the same thing.
Except, of course, if you are an immigrant, they you'll bathe in money because [reasons].
Well your education system is great, armed forces are stronk, what else can you wish for? Finnish Space Program?
Well your education system is great, armed forces are stronk, what else can you wish for? Finnish Space Program?
"All You Can *bleep*" brothels? :hmmm:
Betonov
11-21-14, 09:31 AM
Depends. Over here, when I was on unemployment cashmoneythingamalingwhatsamacallit, I got about 500 euros per month. After bills, I had about 200-250 euros to spend. You can live, but you can't spend much on anything else than living. Welfare is pretty much the same thing.
Except, of course, if you are an immigrant, they you'll bathe in money because [reasons].
There's people that have a run of bad luck and need something to get them trough the situation. it's easier to find a job again when there's no worrying how you're going to eat.
And then there's people that get more from the state than I earn just by having enough kids the uterus can produce without blowing up. And spend less effort in finding a job than me preparing for the olympic games.
Nothing wrong with giving an immigrant some starter funds for good luck PROVIDED the immigrant has skills/education/know how to benefit the hosting country.
We could get the buerocrats to find jobs for the less than fortunate and give them an ultimatum: take it or find money elsewhere.
But I'd be called a nazi/rightwinger/greedy capitalist pig if I wanted to implement strict welfare regulations.
Armistead
11-21-14, 10:20 AM
You shouldn't have to apologize for making profit through your hard work, risk, and ingenuity. isn't it sad that this world has gotten to the point where people expect you to apologize for being successful?
Isn't that the point. Seriously, if I had no hope of success, I would've just took on another job with someone. Heck, the first year there were several times I couldn't pay myself, but employees got paid.
There's people that have a run of bad luck and need something to get them trough the situation. it's easier to find a job again when there's no worrying how you're going to eat.
And then there's people that get more from the state than I earn just by having enough kids the uterus can produce without blowing up. And spend less effort in finding a job than me preparing for the olympic games.
Nothing wrong with giving an immigrant some starter funds for good luck PROVIDED the immigrant has skills/education/know how to benefit the hosting country.
We could get the buerocrats to find jobs for the less than fortunate and give them an ultimatum: take it or find money elsewhere.
But I'd be called a nazi/rightwinger/greedy capitalist pig if I wanted to implement strict welfare regulations.
Aye, I get what you're saying. But too often those on welfare or similar aids are lumbed together and called slackers. That is not the case, some just can't get a job. A thing to remember also is that not everyone lives in a big city with 2 billion MacDonald's to work on, some simply can't get a job.
Betonov
11-21-14, 10:49 AM
Aye, I get what you're saying. But too often those on welfare or similar aids are lumbed together and called slackers.
And usually by people who got a job via connections and work 15min out of an 8 hour shift.
And usually by people who got a job via connections and work 15min out of an 8 hour shift.
Exactly. I had a friend who got to work at the primary metal plant because his father was working there. The hell with experience, qualifications etc.
Sailor Steve
11-21-14, 12:16 PM
Exactly. I had a friend who got to work at the primary metal plant because his father was working there. The hell with experience, qualifications etc.
I've also seen the exact opposite. When I worked at the book distributor back in the mid '90s we had one employee who was more skilled, experienced, qualified, and a better worker than just about anybody there. He could never get promoted into management because they had anti-nepotism rules and his step-father was the overall manager of the place.
Betonov
11-21-14, 12:20 PM
I've also seen the exact opposite. When I worked at the book distributor back in the mid '90s we had one employee who was more skilled, experienced, qualified, and a better worker than just about anybody there. He could never get promoted into management because they had anti-nepotism rules and his step-father was the overall manager of the place.
Anti-nepp.. anti-nejpp... anti-nuuuu...
As a Slovene I can't even pronounce it, let alone know what it is :o
Polar opposite, equally damaging to the company.
Sailor Steve
11-21-14, 12:22 PM
Anti-nepp.. anti-nejpp... anti-nuuuu...
As a Slovene I can't even pronounce it, let alone know what it is :o
Means ya can't promote family, ya blamed idjit furriner! :O:
Armistead
11-21-14, 12:28 PM
Aye, I get what you're saying. But too often those on welfare or similar aids are lumbed together and called slackers. That is not the case, some just can't get a job. A thing to remember also is that not everyone lives in a big city with 2 billion MacDonald's to work on, some simply can't get a job.
One of the traps is the big city and having all the free social services there, housing projects, etc...With the generational mindset of welfare, people don't get cars, etc. Every morning you see numerous people walking or taking the bus to the welfare office and there are no jobs down that way. Sort of like it tooks years to realize in Africa you don't help nomadic tribes survive in the long run by setting up food cities where the ground is dry.
Aktungbby
11-21-14, 12:37 PM
Anti-nepp.. anti-nejpp... anti-nuuuu...
As a Slovene I can't even pronounce it, let alone know what it is :o
Polar opposite, equally damaging to the company.
Means ya can't promote family, ya blamed idjit furriner! :O:
Yes, hiring family within the company (nepotism) and calling the company 'an equal opportunity employer' would tend to lack the 'timbre of verisimilitude! :smug: Now go 'splice the mainbrace'- BBY!:rotfl2:
Betonov
11-21-14, 12:38 PM
Means ya can't promote family, ya blamed idjit furriner! :O:
I know what nepotism means, it's the backbone of our economy and politics :O:
It's that anti part that fries my brain.
You can't even buy newspapers here without having to be related to the postman so the papers even arrive
Aktungbby
11-21-14, 12:40 PM
You can't even buy newspapers here without having to be related to the postman so the papers even arrive
At least you know it's him; he always rings twice! :03:
Sailor Steve
11-21-14, 12:41 PM
I figured you knew. :D
But yes, it's true. Here we have countered the practice by making laws, or at least in-company rules. A lot of job applications for large nation-wide companies actually have the question "Do you have any relatives who work for (XXXX)?"
I can see not wanting to be seen promoting family over others more qualified, but to exclude the qualified because they are family? Seems a little wrong to me.
I've also seen the exact opposite. When I worked at the book distributor back in the mid '90s we had one employee who was more skilled, experienced, qualified, and a better worker than just about anybody there. He could never get promoted into management because they had anti-nepotism rules and his step-father was the overall manager of the place.
Goes both ways then, I think. If you ask me, the most qualified should get the job. Would serve in everyone's best interest. EDIT: But that would be in the 'perfect world'. :P
I can see not wanting to be seen promoting family over others more qualified, but to exclude the qualified because they are family? Seems a little wrong to me.
Agree. Seems to me that as long as the relatives aren't in the same chain of command it'd be ok.
Armistead
11-22-14, 07:08 AM
See the FBI has arrested a few people in Ferguson regarding bomb plots, but I don't believe they were from Ferguson.
Jimbuna
11-22-14, 10:13 AM
I know what nepotism means, it's the backbone of our economy and politics :O:
It's that anti part that fries my brain.
You can't even buy newspapers here without having to be related to the postman so the papers even arrive
Saw it often in local government but only once in the force....the son wasn't allowed anywhere near the area his father was stationed in and he was never allowed to forget it by his shift colleagues.
em2nought
11-22-14, 04:07 PM
Goes both ways then, I think. If you ask me, the most qualified should get the job. Would serve in everyone's best interest. EDIT: But that would be in the 'perfect world'. :P
...and it always P.O.d me when I had to sign my eval with that crappy little "Petty Officer ____ fully supports the Navy's equal opportunity program." or whatever they forced me to sign my name to. been awhile. lol
Now that I'm a grumpy old man no way would I sign that stinkin' paper
Armistead
11-22-14, 07:01 PM
Guess we're gonna find out later today....
http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/17116/wm/pd1684775.jpg
http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/
Dread Knot
11-24-14, 04:57 PM
I'm waiting to hear, but it does seem if the Grand Jury decided to indict Wilson, there would be no need to hold off announcing it.
Armistead
11-24-14, 05:18 PM
Have to agree, with all the leaks, but still if he was indicted there would be mass celebration, so either way, best to let everyone get home from work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/129581/3666136-5719310562-13266.jpg
Armistead
11-24-14, 09:34 PM
This is the police scanner for Ferguson, already numerous accounts of shots fired....
The current channels being scanned are Ferguson PD-155.01000 Ferguson Car to Car-154.08500 RIOT-A-154.72500 (Priority) RIOT-C(Incident Command)-153.96500 RIOT-F-151.43000 Precincts 1-155.13000 Precincts 2-155.56500 Precinct 3,5,7-154.84500 Precinct 5-154.87500 Jennings/Normandy-155.55000 Police Car-to-Car-154.89000 Nationwide Law Enforcement Emergency-155.47500(
http://stephentopia.listen2myradio.com/
Meanwhile in Baghd...errr...Ferguson:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3PwlLCCYAEj217.jpg
Task Force
11-24-14, 10:25 PM
So much for "Peaceful" protests eh.
ikalugin
11-24-14, 10:28 PM
Well some peaceful protests are more peaceful than others. At least those aren't as peaceful as this was:
http://rt.com/files/opinionpost/21/f1/80/00/ukraine-maidan-ultranationalists-protests.jpg
So much for "Peaceful" protests eh.
When you've got nothing to lose. *shrugs*
Armistead
11-24-14, 11:07 PM
There goes the liquor store.....
Task Force
11-24-14, 11:22 PM
There goes the liquor store.....
RIP Liquor store.
Dread Knot
11-24-14, 11:23 PM
There goes the liquor store.....
Peaceful protest does work up a helluva thirst.
Seasons Greetings Ferg-Arson.
Seasons Gassings!
Apparently the National Guard have been asked to respond. LRADs are also out on the beat.
Armistead
11-24-14, 11:32 PM
pants up, don't loot....
Dread Knot
11-24-14, 11:41 PM
They're burning the Little Ceasar's pizza joint. We're defintely over the Rubicon now.
"And the molotovs red glare
Tear gas bursting in air
Gave proof through the night
That our problems were still there..."
Armistead
11-24-14, 11:43 PM
sounded like a warzone with about 30 shots fired, firefighters had to retreat. listening to scanner, numerous cars being watched that have men firing guns, guess they'll eventually try to get some of them.....
sounded like a warzone with about 30 shots fired, firefighters had to retreat. listening to scanner, numerous cars being watched that have men firing guns, guess they'll eventually try to get some of them.....
I think once the Guard come in to do crowd control the police will probably hunt down the mobile shooters.
It's a pity that it's come to this, but no real surprise, anger and opportunism. Same thing that we saw in London in 2011. People don't see themselves as part of a community any more, so there's no harm in burning it down and inciting violence against the thing that they feel has failed them, the state, the law and the government.
Armistead
11-24-14, 11:48 PM
Listening to scanner, they can't locate one trooper and sounds concerning, hope he's OK...
Dread Knot
11-24-14, 11:49 PM
Frantic business owners are asking Governor Jay Nixon where the National Guard troops are.
Probably protecting the Oil Ministry building. :-?
Frantic business owners are asking Governor Jay Nixon where the National Guard troops are.
Probably protecting the Oil Ministry building. :-?
Last I heard most of them were deployed around Clayton, the St Louis PD HQ and the Court area.
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 12:05 AM
O'Reilly Auto Parts in Ferguson is now open for pillaging. Walgreens drugstore was looted and set on fire in several places.
Sure hope no Reginald Denny incident transpires like in LA 1992.
Task Force
11-25-14, 12:09 AM
Heard they are also looting Toys R' Us, Perfect timing for Christmas!
Damn opportunists pigs.
ikalugin
11-25-14, 12:10 AM
Heard they are also looting Toys R' Us, Perfect timing for Christmas!
Damn opportunists pigs.
That is the nature of looters - normal people would join up if they think that they would get away with it.
Morever - most of looters are not the dedicated criminals or ethnic pillagers, but those opportunists.
Armistead
11-25-14, 12:15 AM
Heard they are also looting Toys R' Us, Perfect timing for Christmas!
Damn opportunists pigs.
Yea, listening on scanner, police told to retreat from Toys R Us, over 100 looter cars in the lot, many seen armed and now they're moving on to other businesses..
That is the nature of looters - normal people would join up if they think that they would get away with it.
Morever - most of looters are not the dedicated criminals or ethnic pillagers, but those opportunists.
Bingo. When we had our riots in 2011, some of the looters and vandals were found to be the children of very affluent people.
It's a Daily Fail article but it's still got the basic points:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025068/UK-riots-Middle-class-rioters-revealed-including-Laura-Johnson-Natasha-Reid-Stefan-Hoyle.html
I think it's the thrill of the act, perhaps some form of kleptomania, because it's got nothing to do with money, not for a millionaires daughter.
Armistead
11-25-14, 12:33 AM
Can't understand why the NG isn't being sent in, ain't gonna be noth'n left before morning...on the scanner another business going up in flames every minute....Taco Bell going up in flames now.....
Can't understand why the NG isn't being sent in, ain't gonna be noth'n left before morning...on the scanner another business going up in flames every minute....Taco Bell going up in flames now.....
They could be working on containing the situation within Ferguson, basically declare Ferguson a loss and work on keeping it from spreading out.
Does seem rather odd though, I mean the SLPD has spent over $200,000 getting ready for this moment, the Guard has been deployed and ready weeks in advance and yet everyone has been caught off guard by it.
There are other smaller protests elsewhere in America, Oakland, not surprisingly, New York, and outside the White House.
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 12:47 AM
Can't understand why the NG isn't being sent in, ain't gonna be noth'n left before morning...on the scanner another business going up in flames every minute....Taco Bell going up in flames now.....
Mine eyes have seen the coming of the glory of the Horde.
They are trampling down the boutique where the Android Phones are stored.
They are piling all their loot into the back of a battered old green Ford.
The uncouth are marching on...
:har::har::har::har: :up:
ikalugin
11-25-14, 01:02 AM
Can't understand why the NG isn't being sent in, ain't gonna be noth'n left before morning...on the scanner another business going up in flames every minute....Taco Bell going up in flames now.....
We all know why.
http://i014.radikal.ru/1105/44/af42263ad9d3.jpg
On serious note - maybe the chain of command was disrupted and they couldn't get a consensus on the use of force.
Armistead
11-25-14, 01:32 AM
yea, ain't gonna be nothing left by morning.....Read the NG mainly being used to protect govt. buildings, hospitals and the power grid....
In a few days all the looters will be crying for help when they have no where to shop for food and all the social services closed...
yea, ain't gonna be nothing left by morning.....Read the NG mainly being used to protect govt. buildings, hospitals and the power grid....
In a few days all the looters will be crying for help when they have no where to shop for food and all the social services closed...
Nah, most of the looters will go out of town for food and drink, they'll have cars parked away and they'll just shuttle it in.
The residents of Ferguson, the ones who are probably sitting in their homes hoping they don't catch a stray bullet or tear gas canister, they are the ones who will be wanting help, although I imagine by now they'll have either stocked up with food or left town for the duration.
ikalugin
11-25-14, 01:43 AM
Nah, most of the looters will go out of town for food and drink, they'll have cars parked away and they'll just shuttle it in.
The residents of Ferguson, the ones who are probably sitting in their homes hoping they don't catch a stray bullet or tear gas canister, they are the ones who will be wanting help, although I imagine by now they'll have either stocked up with food or left town for the duration.
At least in former Soviet Union the looting (in the cities) is often done by the people who came from countryside/small towns. Maybe this is also the case in Ferguson - looters (in their majority) came from outside.
That said, one does wonder why in the US, with what appears to be a strong traditions of well organised militia.... there is no militia protecting shops and such in Ferguson. For example in Kyrgyzstan riots people would defend their shopping malls for days against looters, same is true about office centers and such.
At least in former Soviet Union the looting (in the cities) is often done by the people who came from countryside/small towns. Maybe this is also the case in Ferguson - looters (in their majority) came from outside.
That said, one does wonder why in the US, with what appears to be a strong traditions of well organised militia.... there is no militia protecting shops and such in Ferguson. For example in Kyrgyzstan riots people would defend their shopping malls for days against looters, same is true about office centers and such.
It did happen in August, there were groups of people protecting businesses. There might be again tonight but it just hasn't been seen. It did take a couple of nights in August for the protectors to come out, so they might emerge in the coming days.
Jimbuna
11-25-14, 07:08 AM
Either that or just add to the looters ranks.
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 08:04 AM
That said, one does wonder why in the US, with what appears to be a strong traditions of well organised militia.....there is no militia protecting shops and such in Ferguson.
'Appears' is the critical word here.
http://img1.owned.com/media/images/2/7/1/0/27109/this_is_why_you_don_t_see_shooting_in_redneck_neig hborhoods_540.jpg
Wolferz
11-25-14, 08:12 AM
Black Friday gets worse every year.:-?
Armistead
11-25-14, 08:35 AM
At least in former Soviet Union the looting (in the cities) is often done by the people who came from countryside/small towns. Maybe this is also the case in Ferguson - looters (in their majority) came from outside.
That said, one does wonder why in the US, with what appears to be a strong traditions of well organised militia.... there is no militia protecting shops and such in Ferguson. For example in Kyrgyzstan riots people would defend their shopping malls for days against looters, same is true about office centers and such.
Truthfully, many white people don't care if blacks burn their own towns down. I bet I've seen 1000 statements on FB, rather racial, that people enjoy watching it.
Oddly, numerous black businesses felt safe enough not to board up and paid a severe price...and now many have lost jobs. Several businesses said they will not rebuild, but it's early now...
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 08:43 AM
Only nine of the 61 arrested in Ferguson last night are from Ferguson, according to an arrest roster from St. Louis County Police.
So, yes. The majority of the real offenders were just there for the free Christmas gift tapping and Holiday revelry
Otto Harkaman
11-25-14, 09:07 AM
They should have hired Blackwater for security
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 09:53 AM
Truthfully, American people don't care if Americans burn American towns down.
I bet I've seen 1000 statements on FB, rather American, that Americans enjoy watching it.
Quite possible. I always had the suspicion that 1939's Gone with the Wind was big hit with American audiences, not for the turgid boring romance, but for the thrill of watching Atlanta burn to the ground.
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/reviews/20/1100191972.jpg
Rockstar
11-25-14, 10:15 AM
http://www.duniverso.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/incendio-crianca-inocente.jpg
She looks thrilled, don't you think?
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 10:36 AM
One Nation, under martial law with pyromania and Molotov Cocktails for all.
Oh...and quit smoking. It's not good for you.
http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-burn-baby-burn-13.png
ikalugin
11-25-14, 11:36 AM
I wonder how many tincap wearing Internet users are now discussing the inevitable break up of the USA and -polite men- occupying Washington DC?
Betonov
11-25-14, 11:45 AM
I wonder how many tincap wearing Internet users are now discussing the inevitable break up of the USA and -polite men- occupying Washington DC?
Less than 1% of the population, but trust me, you'll hear them to Moscow
BossMark
11-25-14, 11:46 AM
Was the jury all white by any chance?
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 12:00 PM
Was the jury all white by any chance?
The Grand Jury in this case was composed of six white men, three white women, two black women and one black man. St. Louis County overall is 70 percent white, but about two-thirds of Ferguson's residents are black.
Rockstar
11-25-14, 12:05 PM
Having examined all of the evidence from the case, I firmly believe... Oh wait. I haven't examined all of the evidence from the case. Nevermind.
Armistead
11-25-14, 12:06 PM
See they're gonna protest in several of the larger cities near us here in NC tonight...I assume this will take place all over the US.
The Grand Jury in this case was composed of six white men, three white women, two black women and one black man. St. Louis County overall is 70 percent white, but about two-thirds of Ferguson's residents are black.
9 white to 3 black, and guess how much of a majority is needed for the jury to reach a decision. 9 out of 12.
Someone really didn't think when they composed the jury. :nope:
Meanwhile, Amnesty International are out in the streets, monitoring things, only the second time in history they've been deployed in America.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3S5S8YCIAAIvD-.jpg:large
Apparently there were, as I suspected, attempts to prevent further damage.
"Business owner Jerome Jenkins says people locked arms to prevent more damage. "I wish I knew who they were."
https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/537276202654789632/photo/1
One police officer was shot and at least one person, however the police forces have denied using live rounds last night, and from what I could see on the live footage this is an accurate statement. One witness did state at one point that the munition was coming from the crowd towards the police rather than the other way. Police were relatively calm in their response, starting with smoke grenades, moving up to tear gas and the trusty LRADs.
Firefighters probably had one of the tougher nights, being overstretched and not having the manpower or protection to deal with the approximately twenty-five structural fires that took place in Ferguson.
Tonight will probably see a much more robust police reponse, I imagine the SWAT will be much more pro-active and the Guard might even move in as well.
As always, I recommend this reddit thread for information, livestreams and photos from the many amateur and professional journalists in the area:
http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/
Aktungbby
11-25-14, 12:57 PM
9 white to 3 black, and guess how much of a majority is needed for the jury to reach a decision. 9 out of 12.
Someone really didn't think when they composed the jury.
That was a Grand Jury which already exists and is not selected as for a specific trial and must represent the demographic of the county not the city. St Louis County: as of 2000 by census: 780,000 white 76.8%; Black-193,306 19.0%; Asian and ; 'other' races 42,179 4.2%. The census appears to me to be a bit dated and only reflects those who declared a 'single ethnicity'! The Asian and Hispanic population is rising noticeably. As a county grand jury , with three Blacks, there was an equitable distribution-actually reflecting 25% and not 19%.:03: http://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/docs/Document%20Library/Maps%20and%20GIS/Fact%20Book/Fact%20Book%202007-2012/Population.pdf (http://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/docs/Document%20Library/Maps%20and%20GIS/Fact%20Book/Fact%20Book%202007-2012/Population.pdf) Since grand jury members tend to be reasonably affluent for their year-long term, I suspect that wily prosecutor 'knew' exactly which iron to put in the fire (literally?!) to give the process 'verisimilitude'. Also in the broadcast news last night, the 21 foot threat zone I alluded to earlier in this thread (post #107) was mentioned as part of the officers training in mitigation of his conduct....
Rockstar
11-25-14, 01:10 PM
9 white to 3 black, and guess how much of a majority is needed for the jury to reach a decision. 9 out of 12.
It is only an assumption on our part the jury voted like typical racisits whites for the white and blacks for the black rather than based on the provided evidence. As far as I know the vote count nor evidence has not been revealed and may not ever be.
Your beginning to sound like us 'all muslims are the same crowd' :)
Catfish
11-25-14, 01:13 PM
Did the police officer really fire six (!) shots ? :hmmm:
I am sure it was a well-balanced jury ...
Aktungbby
11-25-14, 01:19 PM
I take you are assuming the jury voted along race rather than evidence. But as far as I know the vote count has not been revealed and may not ever be.
Your beginning to sound like us 'all musims are the same crowd' :)
Correct; grand jury proceedings are secret until as in Napa we release an annual published report of findings and recommendations. And let's just leave 'crowded museums' :timeout: out of this already heated discussion shall we-no need to expand a cool thread more than the topic requires.? :03:
Mr Quatro
11-25-14, 01:32 PM
Did the police officer really fire six (!) shots ? :hmmm:
I am sure it was a well-balanced jury ...
Fact sheet says officer fired 12 shots with the last one fatal to the top of the head and the first one to the victims thumb.
That little gun does not look like it could fire 12 shots.
What would they do if the St Louis Rams moved back to Los Angeles?
Mr Quatro
11-25-14, 02:00 PM
Well the TV news said 12 shots, but I guess it was only 6:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/ferguson-grand-jury-deliberations/19474907/
grand jury declined to indict officer Darren Wilson, 28, for firing six shots in an August confrontation that killed 18-year-old Michael Brown
Officer Wilson's gun
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/HT_ferguson_darren_wilson_gun_jtm_141124_4x3_992.j pg
It is only an assumption on our part the jury voted like typical racisits whites for the white and blacks for the black rather than based on the provided evidence. As far as I know the vote count nor evidence has not been revealed and may not ever be.
Your beginning to sound like us 'all muslims are the same crowd' :)
:haha: Fair point, I don't know how the jury voted, and I don't think for a moment it was as clear cut as people will make it out to be.
However, in a situation like this in which race is a fairly big issue, having a three quarter white jury is probably a bad decision, even if it is the composition of St Louis county. It's going to inevitably lead to accusations of foul play.
Dread Knot
11-25-14, 02:36 PM
It is important to remember that the grand jury was not asked to determine what actually happened. They were asked to determine if a crime could be established based on certain definitions under the law. In the end, those two things may be the same thing, but it is incorrect to assume that they are identical. It is also a logical fallacy to look to the grand jury as an applicable authority on a question they have no expertise in and weren't specifically pursuing.
It is important to remember that the grand jury was not asked to determine what actually happened. They were asked to determine if a crime could be established based on certain definitions under the law. In the end, those two things may be the same thing, but it is incorrect to assume that they are identical. It is also a logical fallacy to look to the grand jury as an applicable authority on a question they have no expertise in and weren't specifically pursuing.
Also a good point. And there's going to be a lot of too-ing and fro-ing over the next few days as to whether there was a crime under those certain definitions. There's also going to be a lot of people taking this out of context, because really it's just the tip of the iceberg that has a lot of emotion below the water.
I do have to feel somewhat sorry for Officer Wilson though, he and his family are never going to be safe again, in a way it would have been easier for him to have gone to prison because at least there he would have some protection and the heat on his family might well have died down. Now he's going to be hunted no matter where in America he goes. :nope:
Aaand apparently Officer Wilson is going to be doing an interview with George Stephanopoulos on ABC tonight...
http://offspring.com/o/photos/2012.10.11%20%28Days%20Go%20By%20Photo%20Calendar% 29/%5BDaysGoBy27,%20Well%20We%27re%20Pouring%20Gasoli ne.%20By%20towniehooligan%5D.jpg
"But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard." -Martin Luther King Jr.
That's pretty much my opinion on the matter.
What's happening in Ferguson was the spark for a huge pile of flammable materials that have been collecting for a long time, it's hardly base cause.
A good post on Reddit that goes into a bit more detail then I'm capable of putting together myself right now. (https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2ndfuo/innocent_young_man_michael_brown_shown_on/cmco6v2)
In any case, they are just keeping up American Tradition. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Liberty)
Wolferz
11-25-14, 04:41 PM
Or just thugs looking for some action on both sides of the coin?
Two wrongs don't make any of it right.
If you've seen the photos of Mister Wilson's injuries you would probably come to the conclusion that they were not life threatening and did not warrant the use of lethal force.
We'll likely never know the mindset of this policeman when he decided to pull his pistol and pump this kid full of lead.
Platapus
11-25-14, 04:45 PM
It is only an assumption on our part the jury voted like typical racisits whites for the white and blacks for the black rather than based on the provided evidence. As far as I know the vote count nor evidence has not been revealed and may not ever be.
Your beginning to sound like us 'all muslims are the same crowd' :)
Rats you beat me to it.
It is just as offensive to presume that white people will always vote one way as it is to presume that black people will always vote one way.
Until we have evidence otherwise, we should presume that the Grand Jury made the decision they truly felt was appropriate. After all, the Grand Jury looked at far more evidence and listened to more testimony than we have.
Just because a group of people makes a decision one does not agree with, does NOT mean that the group is corrupt. :nope:
I heard on the radio this morning that the Grand Jury decision was unanimous.
nikimcbee
11-25-14, 06:29 PM
I feel sorry for the poor shlubs that got drafted into grand jury duty. I wonder how the rules differ from state to state on grand jury service, requirements. In my grand jury service (around nine years ago), we only saw evidence from the DA, and he just had to show that a crime had been committed. The service was for one month and we were only used as needed. 90% was a complete waste of time:down:, then there's the other 10%. We had one DA withdraw his charges for a rape case, because there was a lack of evidence and he would have been made a fool of by any good defence attorney, because there were 6 different versions to the story, none of them consistent.
nikimcbee
11-25-14, 06:33 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3S5S8YCIAAIvD-.jpg:large
lol Is this like the "B" squad for AI? They look like they are looking for a Starbucks or something.
Buddahaid
11-25-14, 08:09 PM
http://www.venturebrosblog.com/wp-content/gallery/venture-bros-cosplay-guide-henchmen/cosplay-33.jpg
I heard on the radio this morning that the Grand Jury decision was unanimous.
That's fair enough. Can't exactly have been an easy case for the jurors to sit on. I can sympathise with that (especially since I've got my own service in January to look forward to).
But what I'm not saying is that it did happen in regards to whites voting in favour and blacks against, what I'm saying is that with that particular jury make-up and the ratio needed to make a decision, that externally it's going to be seen amongst many people in the manner in which I have already put forward which is just going to create more antagonism.
Buddahaid
11-25-14, 08:55 PM
That was a Grand Jury which already exists and is not selected as for a specific trial and must represent the demographic of the county not the city. St Louis County: as of 2000 by census: 780,000 white 76.8%; Black-193,306 19.0%; Asian and ; 'other' races 42,179 4.2%. The census appears to me to be a bit dated and only reflects those who declared a 'single ethnicity'! The Asian and Hispanic population is rising noticeably. As a county grand jury , with three Blacks, there was an equitable distribution-actually reflecting 25% and not 19%.:03: http://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/docs/Document%20Library/Maps%20and%20GIS/Fact%20Book/Fact%20Book%202007-2012/Population.pdf (http://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/docs/Document%20Library/Maps%20and%20GIS/Fact%20Book/Fact%20Book%202007-2012/Population.pdf) Since grand jury members tend to be reasonably affluent for their year-long term, I suspect that wily prosecutor 'knew' exactly which iron to put in the fire (literally?!) to give the process 'verisimilitude'. Also in the broadcast news last night, the 21 foot threat zone I alluded to earlier in this thread (post #107) was mentioned as part of the officers training in mitigation of his conduct....
You must have missed this post Oberon.
You must have missed this post Oberon.
I saw it...I don't think the people in Ferguson did. :03: Honestly though they could have gone for 8 white and 5 black. That would have prevented the 9 needed to pass and 9 white people on the jury. There would have been ways to do it, loopholes and the like.
It probably wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it would have been one less bit of ammunition for people to use against it.
ikalugin
11-25-14, 09:31 PM
I saw it...I don't think the people in Ferguson did. :03: Honestly though they could have gone for 8 white and 5 black. That would have prevented the 9 needed to pass and 9 white people on the jury. There would have been ways to do it, loopholes and the like.
It probably wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it would have been one less bit of ammunition for people to use against it.
I would be against this, as bending the law, even with good intentions, would always lead to a greater crisis.
Buddahaid
11-25-14, 09:31 PM
I don't think it matters at all since the only conclusion that would have prevented rioting would have been charges pressed.
I don't think it matters at all since the only conclusion that would have prevented rioting would have been charges pressed.
No doubt about that at all.
But they could have taken away one bit of ammunition which has been used against it...but then again, admittedly something else would be found.
Still, this was inevitable, nothing to do now but wait for it to blow itself out until the next one, and the one after that and the one after that.
Armistead
11-25-14, 09:38 PM
I took the time to read over 30 witness statements and this is my conclusion.
Cop pulls up, tells Brown to get out of the road, Brown refuses, exchanging insults. Cop pulls back, opens door, Brown shoves it shut and attacks officer through the window and the officer shot hitting Brown once or twice.
Brown runs off and was chased by the cop, keeping distance. Brown realized he was hit, turns towards Wilson who is yelling hands up and Brown slightly raises his hand as if to look where he had been shot or to see if blood was on his hands, not over his head.
Brown being shot, starts walking back towards the cop, now holding his hands near his stomach, not being armed, obviously holding his wound. The cop is yelling "get down, hands up, get down" and numerous commands for Brown to stop, but Brown doesn't. Wilson fires more shots striking Brown and seriously wounds him. The cop continues to yell commands as Brown is now coming forward, probably in shock and more leaning over. I think he moved forward faster, as if one would unable to control their body falling, but trying to stay up. As he was now moving forward more leaning over, the cop fired more shots hitting him in the head ...killing him.
IMO, Brown turned back being shot and was now in fear, maybe shock, physical and emotional. He wasn't following orders, but I think trying to walk back to the cop because he was trying to give up, but not reacting mentally correctly. I could never understood why someone would charge a cop with no weapon, knowing he was gonna shoot and kill you. Brown unable or not thinking, wouldn't or couldn't follow directions. I think the last set of shots to the head was probably an overreaction of the cop. Brown was simply leaning over due to his wounds and now staggering faster on his feet toward the cop. Had the cop not fired the last rounds, Brown would've went down anyway in a few more seconds.
Is the cop liable...Really, a tough call. Fact one, Brown did seriously attack him in his car. My guess is when the cop pulled his gun, Brown went for the gun either to kill the cop or to stop the cop from shooting him and both were fighting for their life. Certainly, after this, the cop in fear for his life, following training, all happening in seconds, perceived Brown as a threat when he would not get down and shot him more. The cop had to be in mental stress as well. Had Brown simply followed the cops first orders and not attacked the cop, none of this would've happened. My guess is, Brown, just involved in robbery didn't want to go to jail.
Ending, I think Brown was trying to give up, but couldn't obey commands and kept coming forward. I think the cop was in reasonable fear and legally was within his rights, but probably over reacted due to the previous events and attack. Having watched numerous police shootings on Youtube, here is the problem I see....cop shoots criminal, cops yell commands such as
"hands up", but wounded criminal is unable physically/mentally to comply correctly or timely, so cop keeps unloading until criminal is no longer moving... Certainly, crime doesn't pay...
I think that's a fairly well rounded estimation of events. Let's face it, being shot doesn't exactly do much for your cohesion. :yep:
Armistead
11-25-14, 10:56 PM
I think that's a fairly well rounded estimation of events. Let's face it, being shot doesn't exactly do much for your cohesion. :yep:
I got shot once, twice through the right hand right after arm wrestling a biker in a bar I shouldn't have been in. That alone had me in stress and I actually thought I had been seriously shot in the body for a few seconds....
Course, that was in my younger more foolish days....
Task Force
11-25-14, 11:08 PM
Looks like its gonna be another "fun" night in Ferguson...
Armistead
11-25-14, 11:38 PM
Title
Car plows through protesters blocking road.
Notice at the beginning protesters got on hood, blocked drivers view....Can't say I blame the driver for taking off being attacked.....
http://myfox8.com/2014/11/25/video-shows-car-plow-through-protesters-during-ferguson-rally-in-minneapolis-run-over-woman/
Catfish
11-26-14, 05:41 AM
Frankly, i do not know what to make of it. Human behaviour is sometimes strange, and not logical, epecially in dire situations.
However, if someone wants to become a cop here in this country, he has to demonstrate that he can remain cool in tense situations and be able to fight his own fear (if he fails this he won't become one, or will lose the job), because this is what is demanded from him, and what makes him a cop.
No doubt the black acted like a thug and the cop was in fear, but ... six. shots.
Really.
Skybird
11-26-14, 06:29 AM
Nobody should ever dare again to tell me - like happened in the past - that the racism problem in American society is a solved issue, because they signed some bill and put a stamp under the text. The tension that spark the flames now - justified or not, I have no opionion on that trial - prove the opposite.
Schroeder
11-26-14, 06:32 AM
Frankly, i do not know what to make of it. Human behaviour is sometimes strange, and not logical, epecially in dire situations.
However, if someone wants to become a cop here in this country, he has to demonstrate that he can remain cool in tense situations and be able to fight his own fear (if he fails this he won't become one, or will lose the job), because this is what is demanded from him, and what makes him a cop.
No doubt the black acted like a thug and the cop was in fear, but ... six. shots.
Really.
But over here a cop doesn't have to expect that each and every idiot has a gun and can shoot him.
Besides from what I hear cops in the US only get 6 months of training before they are let lose on the public (don't know anymore where I read that and it might vary between states, counties etc..). Over here they get 2,5 years for the medium ranks and 3 years for the higher ranks...
Dread Knot
11-26-14, 07:39 AM
Well, at least it was a less pyromaniacal night in Ferguson. A few broken windows, some bottles thrown and a cop car bought it, but nothing like the night before.
On the other hand you can't keep 2,200 National Guardsmen on the front line forever. :D
Armistead
11-26-14, 08:39 AM
Nobody should ever dare again to tell me - like happened in the past - that the racism problem in American society is a solved issue, because they signed some bill and put a stamp under the text. The tension that spark the flames now - justified or not, I have no opionion on that trial - prove the opposite.
Racism does exist and ever evolving, but there is also a major cultural divide, people of like tend to flock and do better together. However, I do believe it has more to do with culture, than it does skin color. I have a few black neighbors, both professional and they both admit they don't won't there kids in black culture, one doesn't allow rap music, kids dress nice and goes to private schools. They basically act white.
I grew up with numerous black friends in the south back in the 60's and 70's as a kid. They were basically rural country folk like most of us. Certainly I grew up amongst a generation of racist white adults in my life and it rubs off. Heck, most the baptist churches in my youth taught blacks were the cursed race of Ham in the bible, not that we all evolved out of Africa. I knew one pastor that believed when Cain found his mate, it was an ape and that was where the black race came from.....yes, this was the general ignorant thinking of many....
The white race is certainly the cause of many problems in history concerning racism. I think the big mistake was the many social programs that enslaved people to govt, but that was the offer of the day and blacks in mass took it. We were not beyond racism to give equality in education, jobs, etc.....These programs destroyed the black family unit, created ghettos in the inner cities, etc....and it became a generational mindset. Things have changed today, all the tools are there for any color to succeed, but the mindset is gone as a whole to do so... I think I posted it earlier, but I think Charles Barkley is hitting on something that blacks must deal with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOIGk-xbvOM
Cultural melting pots can be a good, but a dangerous thing
Dread Knot
11-26-14, 08:58 AM
If I ever find myself getting too nostalgic for the good ole days I find I can temper the feeling with pictures like these...
https://anirishmanabroad.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/7741430404_728f59b2bf_z.jpg
Of course the racism is still out there....it's just not as above board as this.
https://anirishmanabroad.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/segregation-series.jpg?w=650
https://anirishmanabroad.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/tumblr_mdifgbzfxs1r1cuhyo1_500.jpg?w=490
https://anirishmanabroad.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/store.jpg?w=441
Rockstar
11-26-14, 09:14 AM
I have a question, based on the facts of the case what makes this an issue of race?
Armistead
11-26-14, 09:21 AM
I have a question, based on the facts of the case what makes this an issue of race?
Facts often get overlooked when white cop kills black youth. According to the cop, it wasn't a matter of race, according to the black community....it was. We've had several cases lately of blacks getting shot by white cops that were rather unjust, so it fuels the flame...
Rockstar
11-26-14, 09:51 AM
Facts often get overlooked when white cop kills black youth. According to the cop, it wasn't a matter of race, according to the black community....it was. We've had several cases lately of blacks getting shot by white cops that were rather unjust, so it fuels the flame...
Facts do get overlooked if not completely ignored don't they? "We've had several cases lately of blacks getting shot by white cops that were rather unjust, so it fuels the flame..." Statements like that do not contain one fact. It wasn't the white cop nor was it the black citizen. I think it we who complain and point fingers the without knowing the facts are the ones who fuel the fires of racisim, nobody else. I suggest protest, strive, make demand for a better flow of information from the investigation to quell speculation and fairy tales.
My question still stands what or who has made this case an issue of race? My answer is us.
Armistead
11-26-14, 09:59 AM
Facts do get overlooked if not completely ignored don't they? "We've had several cases lately of blacks getting shot by white cops that were rather unjust, so it fuels the flame..." Statements like that do not contain one fact. It wasn't the white cop nor was it the black citizen. I think it we who complain and point fingers the without knowing the facts are the ones who fuel the fires of racisim, nobody else. I suggest we look at the facts of each indiviual case and allow the courts to do their job and most importantly, protest, strive, demand a better flow of information from the investigation to quell speculation and fairy tales.
Well, you missed the entire point, real or imagined, if a person thinks it's real....it's real. It is a fact they're numerous instances of blacks being unjustly shot or attacked with overwhelming force. It can be a race issue or a crime issue, but to the black community.....it's a race issue. Heck, I still live in a generation when law enforcement lynched blacks, it hasn't been that long. Perception is reality, that's something we have to deal with.
Skybird
11-26-14, 11:56 AM
Racism very often is claimed not to be an issue of race by those practicing it. ;)
However, it is an attitude working at a much more subtle, subconscious level.
It is not the issue of cop versus suspect anyway, but the social and communal and national cicumstances that a.) allow these cop-shoots-black situations so often to take place, and b.) that serve as a trigger for such immense displays of riots as well, but the whole cultural climate that allows to go up so easily.
Some years ago one board member had the nerve to clean any claim for racism still being persistent in society off the table by saying that apartheid had been formally ended: racism gone. A paper-believer, obviously - but paper has endless patience. Reality however forms up in people's minds and by subjective interpretation and suggestive intellectual input. It is here were attitudes reside and attributions are being linked to objects of sensory perception.
Not in wanted political formal or legal declarations. Formally, apathheid I gone, yes, history books and official forms say so.
Reality seems to tell a different story, though.
I think the problem here is the fact that you're 21 times more likely to be shot (http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white) by a police officer in the US if you're black.
That's why race is being brought into it. :yep:
Reading https://twitter.com/YesYoureRacist 's retweets is a good way to eliminate all doubt of the prevalence of racism in this world.
A good way to eliminate your faith in humanity as well...
Buddahaid
11-26-14, 01:07 PM
I think the problem here is the fact that you're 21 times more likely to be shot (http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white) by a police officer in the US if you're black.
That's why race is being brought into it. :yep:
So what's the likelihood someone is an armed gangbanger thug by race? Just curious.
So what's the likelihood someone is an armed gangbanger thug by race? Just curious.
According to FBI stats of arrests in 2012:
9,390,473 in total
6,502,919 White
2,640,067 Black
135,165 American Indian or Alaskan native
112, 322 Asian or Pacific Islander
In 2012, 69.3 percent of all individuals arrested were white, 28.1 percent were black, and 2.6 percent were of other races.
Of all juveniles (persons under the age of 18) arrested in 2012, 65.2 percent were white, 32.2 percent were black, and 2.5 percent were of other races.
Of all adults arrested in 2012, 69.7 were white, 27.6 percent were black, and 2.7 percent were of other races.
White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race, accounting for 58.7 percent of those arrests.
The percentages of black adults and white adults arrested for murder were similar, with 49.3 percent being black and 48.3 percent being white.
Black juveniles accounted for 51.5 percent of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes. White juveniles accounted for 61.6 percent of all juveniles arrested for property crimes.
Of the juveniles arrested for drug abuse violations, 74.0 percent were white.
White juveniles accounted for 55.2 percent of juveniles arrested for aggravated assaults.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf
Buddahaid
11-26-14, 01:55 PM
So if you weight those numbers by census roughly a quarter of the population is making half the violence.
So if you weight those numbers by census roughly a quarter of the population is making half the violence.
Isn't that always the way? The loudest ones get all the attention.
What is the real truth about this?
The Policeman say one thing, the others witness say several other things about what they have seen.
If I should believe some of my FB-friends the policeman was totally innocent
While others say the policeman was guilty as charged.
I can't say what is the truth here
I can only say that the way some of these protestant act is no way acceptable.
Markus
I think right now whether Wilson was correct in his actions is no longer the issue. In fact I don't think it's really been the issue all along, but it has been the tip of the iceberg, the ignition to the gunpowder if you like.
The issue is the tension between white and black races within certain areas of the US and how this affects the way that black people are perceived by white people, including white law enforcement officers.
Naturally talking heads on both sides have gotten into the fray and raised tensions for their own benefit, people and organisations like the KKK, and Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and so forth. In a way, they have a keen interest in keeping the divide wide, otherwise they find themselves out of a job. Thus stoking up riots and such forth which can be perceived by white people as "blacks making crime again" is in their interest. However, equally as Martin Luther King pointed out "A riot is the language of the unheard" and there are plenty of people in America, black and white, who feel that they are unheard, that they have been dropkicked out of the political focus and that the people in power no longer speak for them.
As I have repeatedly stated in this thread, people who feel that they have lost the trust of the government, the law enforcement agencies and the justice system will feel that they have nothing left to lose by undertaking violence against the said institutions, and indeed, anything they can get their hands on to vent their anger and frustration out on.
Then, of course, you have to add into the mix those who just love a good riot and the chance to be violent, and then you add the young and impressionable who get caught up in the atmosphere of the event and then you have what's happening in Ferguson.
It's not just one criminal element, it's a whole melting pot of different viewpoints, emotions and attitudes, however the most prevailing mood amongst them is anger and hopelessness...and those are powerful and destructive emotions.
What is the real truth about this?
The Policeman say one thing, the others witness say several other things about what they have seen.
If I should believe some of my FB-friends the policeman was totally innocent
While others say the policeman was guilty as charged.
I can't say what is the truth here
I can only say that the way some of these protestant act is no way acceptable.
Markus
Conflicting witness testimony was a big factor why the Grand Jury voted not to return an indictment. Some of the witnesses not only contradicted their own previously given statements and/or testimony, a number of them actually recanted their testimony when placed before the Grand Jury under oath. This, and a number of other factors, resulted in no indictment...
Guilty as charged? The officer has never been formally charged for any of his actions and, as I recall, there is that nagging issue of "innocent until proven guilty". The purpose of a Grand Jury is not to determine guilt, it is determine if the state, in the form of local and statewide law enforcement (DAs), has the ability to bring charges against an individual or individuals. The Grand Jury does not assess guilt in any way. It merely looks at the evidence and information supplied by the state and rules on whether a charge or charges should be brought and the case should go to trial. The process is a more formal and painstaking version of a preliminary hearing a person who is charged in "regular" criminal matters goes through. In a preliminary hearing, a single judge hears the prosecution present the state's case against the defendant(s), hears a rebuttal by the defense, and then rules if there is any legal impairment for te case to go to a formal trial...
In the case of the Ferguson Grand Jury, it was an unusual situation: the normal, common procedure is for the DA to only lay out the evidence and information required to sway the jury to return and indictment. There is no defense presented. The Ferguson DA, however, took the additional step of presenting evidence and information that would have been helpful to the defense, if the case went to trial. While this is not unprecedented, it is highly unusual. It would be safe to say the DA went out of his way to bring as much information as possible, bot pro and con to the Grand jury...
<O>
Conflicting witness testimony was a big factor why the Grand Jury voted not to return an indictment. Some of the witnesses not only contradicted their own previously given statements and/or testimony, a number of them actually recanted their testimony when placed before the Grand Jury under oath. This, and a number of other factors, resulted in no indictment...
Guilty as charged? The officer has never been formally charged for any of his actions and, as I recall, there is that nagging issue of "innocent until proven guilty". The purpose of a Grand Jury is not to determine guilt, it is determine if the state, in the form of local and statewide law enforcement (DAs), has the ability to bring charges against an individual or individuals. The Grand Jury does not assess guilt in any way. It merely looks at the evidence and information supplied by the state and rules on whether a charge or charges should be brought and the case should go to trial. The process is a more formal and painstaking version of a preliminary hearing a person who is charged in "regular" criminal matters goes through. In a preliminary hearing, a single judge hears the prosecution present the state's case against the defendant(s), hears a rebuttal by the defense, and then rules if there is any legal impairment for te case to go to a formal trial...
In the case of the Ferguson Grand Jury, it was an unusual situation: the normal, common procedure is for the DA to only lay out the evidence and information required to sway the jury to return and indictment. There is no defense presented. The Ferguson DA, however, took the additional step of presenting evidence and information that would have been helpful to the defense, if the case went to trial. While this is not unprecedented, it is highly unusual. It would be safe to say the DA went out of his way to bring as much information as possible, bot pro and con to the Grand jury...
<O>
Thank you for explaining it for me.
Have just seen the Danish news about the situation in Ferguson. this time it was not so much about the shooting, but about alternative "TV-channels"
In this program some person from Info wars was interviewed by the Danish journalist and so was many more and they all said that the authorieties controlled the mainstram media.
Sorry for this little offtopic detour
Markus
Thank you for explaining it for me.
Have just seen the Danish news about the situation in Ferguson. this time it was not so much about the shooting, but about alternative "TV-channels"
In this program some person from Info wars was interviewed by the Danish journalist and so was many more and they all said that the authorieties controlled the mainstram media.
Sorry for this little offtopic detour
Markus
I saw that interview last night from the other side, the infowars guy had just finished having his head torn off by a masked black guy for calling the people who torched the buildings 'terrorists', it was as he was walking away from that (after spending a good half an hour travelling the backstreets looking for teargas canisters to prove there was a government cover up on them using tear gas [Alex Jones, what can I say? :har:]).
That being said though, it says a lot when more information is available through volunteer run information gathering sources such as reddit than is available in the mainstream media. I think that this is the age where the citizen based news overtakes the corporations.
Of course the trouble there is filtrating the rubbish from the actual facts, a problem we have seen with the news coming out of Ukraine, reddit is usually fairly good with this, but it can vary.
I thought this was an interesting take on the issue.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-kass-met-1126-20141126-column.html
The talking heads and the politicians keep stressing that we should learn from our mistakes, that we should change things. But what, exactly, do they want to change? They're vague and purposely so. Should we change the way we talk about race in America? Perhaps, but it's become so easy, and profitable for some, and we've memorized the rituals and we know the symbolism. I don't think we'll change it any time soon.
Doubt there'll be much activity tonight, it's snowing in the area at the moment apparently so that'll put a dampener on activities.
Armistead
11-26-14, 05:32 PM
Thank you for explaining it for me.
Have just seen the Danish news about the situation in Ferguson. this time it was not so much about the shooting, but about alternative "TV-channels"
In this program some person from Info wars was interviewed by the Danish journalist and so was many more and they all said that the authorieties controlled the mainstram media.
Sorry for this little offtopic detour
Markus
Here's the complete report, but broken down by sheet if you want to read just the witness reports. Amazing how people seeing the same thing can see it so differently...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html
Armistead
11-26-14, 05:34 PM
Conflicting witness testimony was a big factor why the Grand Jury voted not to return an indictment. Some of the witnesses not only contradicted their own previously given statements and/or testimony, a number of them actually recanted their testimony when placed before the Grand Jury under oath. This, and a number of other factors, resulted in no indictment...
Guilty as charged? The officer has never been formally charged for any of his actions and, as I recall, there is that nagging issue of "innocent until proven guilty". The purpose of a Grand Jury is not to determine guilt, it is determine if the state, in the form of local and statewide law enforcement (DAs), has the ability to bring charges against an individual or individuals. The Grand Jury does not assess guilt in any way. It merely looks at the evidence and information supplied by the state and rules on whether a charge or charges should be brought and the case should go to trial. The process is a more formal and painstaking version of a preliminary hearing a person who is charged in "regular" criminal matters goes through. In a preliminary hearing, a single judge hears the prosecution present the state's case against the defendant(s), hears a rebuttal by the defense, and then rules if there is any legal impairment for te case to go to a formal trial...
In the case of the Ferguson Grand Jury, it was an unusual situation: the normal, common procedure is for the DA to only lay out the evidence and information required to sway the jury to return and indictment. There is no defense presented. The Ferguson DA, however, took the additional step of presenting evidence and information that would have been helpful to the defense, if the case went to trial. While this is not unprecedented, it is highly unusual. It would be safe to say the DA went out of his way to bring as much information as possible, bot pro and con to the Grand jury...
<O>
If it were a normal process, this case never would've went to the GJ...
If it were a normal process, this case never would've went to the GJ...
Very, very true. While I sympathize with anyone who loses a child or other family member, in this case I feel the authorities in Ferguson and in the state of Missouri have gone to extraordinary efforts to accommodate the Brown family and their questions. There comes a time when one has to face that there is no more to be reasonably done or possibly done. Now its up to the Federal authorities to see if any action will be brought for possible violations of civil rights...
<O>
http://i.imgur.com/VsH2KQK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AepRFhI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4eOrkMB.jpg
http://cjayneteach.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mr_rogers_helpers_quote.png
Buddahaid
11-26-14, 08:52 PM
Here's the complete report, but broken down by sheet if you want to read just the witness reports. Amazing how people seeing the same thing can see it so differently...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html
I'm not surprised at all. People tend to see what they expect to see to a certain degree which makes eyewitness accounts unreliable.
There was a show about Roswell I saw some years ago that had a recreation of the crash sight made, and just one person dressed in military gear at the sight. I think he had a rifle. Anyway, a group of people who thought they were being taken on a nature walk were led past the scene and asked to recall what they saw. The answers were all over the map.
Armistead
11-26-14, 09:00 PM
I'm not surprised at all. People tend to see what they expect to see to a certain degree which makes eyewitness accounts unreliable.
There was a show about Roswell I saw some years ago that had a recreation of the crash sight made, and just one person dressed in military gear at the sight. I think he had a rifle. Anyway, a group of people who thought they were being taken on a nature walk were led past the scene and asked to recall what they saw. The answers were all over the map.
Well, you can get a feel for honestly, those that seemed the most bias often became wishy washy. Even being a GJ the prosecutor used common tactics to get them to repeat the story over and over and often it was very different. One witness, cop just pointed the gun out the window, Brown fell, cop got out and blasted away executing. One saw two cops in the cop car during the fight....just the usual mess of confusion.
Buddahaid
11-26-14, 09:38 PM
http://i.imgur.com/VsH2KQK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AepRFhI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4eOrkMB.jpg
http://cjayneteach.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mr_rogers_helpers_quote.png
Great to see and I wish they were there before the rain. It's the right message and gives hope. Maybe they were?
ikalugin
11-26-14, 10:09 PM
Well, you can get a feel for honestly, those that seemed the most bias often became wishy washy. Even being a GJ the prosecutor used common tactics to get them to repeat the story over and over and often it was very different. One witness, cop just pointed the gun out the window, Brown fell, cop got out and blasted away executing. One saw two cops in the cop car during the fight....just the usual mess of confusion.
I heard that human witnesses often, well, get their information mixed up shall we say. They are not necessary lying as such though - it is just that human memory is very much imperfect.
CaptainHaplo
11-26-14, 11:29 PM
Some witnesses did "see" things certain ways - that contradicted the forensic evidence and they stuck to their versions anyway.
Others changed their story.
Still others later admitted that they didn't actually "see" what happened, that they testified on what they "assumed" had happened or what they had "heard" on the street.
Ultimately, when faced with the forensic evidence - certain facts were clear.
Brown attacked the officer while the officer was in his car - resulting in him receiving a wound to his hand while he was engaged in the struggle at the vehicle. This was demonstrated by Brown's blood and DNA being found INSIDE the officer's vehicle.
Upon fleeing and being chased by Wilson, Brown stopped, turned and advanced toward the officer he already had assaulted. This is shown by Brown's blood being 25 feet PAST where he fell.
Brown was killed by the shot that entered the TOP of his head - which shows he had his head down (as if charging as claimed by Wilson) when the fatal shot struck.
There were NO entry wounds into Brown's back or rear body at all, discrediting all claims that he was shot while fleeing. Brown also landed face down - but there was no entry wound to the back of his head - discrediting the claim that Wilson stood over him and executed him.
Given that the "gentle giant" was seen aggressively assaulting the owner of the store he had just robbed, the facts (and some eyewitness testimony) simply fit a whole lot more reasonably Wilson's version of events than any other claim. Brown was on drugs, his judgment was significantly impaired, and his actions were the cause of his death.
People say they want justice for Michael Brown. One could argue that he already received it.
Well if Mike Brown isn't enough, how about this 12 year old black kid who got shot and killed by police recently. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/tamir-rice-boy-shot-cleveland-police_n_6211064.html) .. Video (http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/11/video_of_tamir_rice_shooting_b.html)
The video, however, shows officers in a cruiser pull up within several feet of Rice, who was not with a group, but by himself underneath a gazebo. Immediately, even before the car stops rolling, the cruiser's passenger side door opens, an officer emerges and fires at Tamir, who drops to the ground.
Well if Mike Brown isn't enough, how about this 12 year old black kid who got shot and killed by police recently. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/tamir-rice-boy-shot-cleveland-police_n_6211064.html) .. Video (http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/11/video_of_tamir_rice_shooting_b.html)
Michael Brown isn't "enough", rather he is a flawed and unsympathetic distraction that cuts the argument off at the knees. Instead of real victims like this child we get thugs like Brown as the poster boy of racial injustice.
Armistead
11-27-14, 09:59 AM
Well if Mike Brown isn't enough, how about this 12 year old black kid who got shot and killed by police recently. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/tamir-rice-boy-shot-cleveland-police_n_6211064.html) .. Video (http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/11/video_of_tamir_rice_shooting_b.html)
Well, one thing is clear in both cases, both times officers didn't keep proper distance and put themselves in positions where they had to act or were attacked in seconds.
Had Wilson not back right up to Brown with his window open, he wouldn't have been attacked. Instead, he should've stopped and kept proper distance. Not sure about the 12 year old if the cops didn't know he was there when they pulled up, but appears they did.
Not that these are criminal actions, but certainly poor actions not following training..
Skybird
11-27-14, 10:29 AM
We do not know why the policecar was rushing so fast onto the playground, don't we. But during that rapid approach, for the cops it probably must have appeared they were dealing with a weapon that was being swung at them.
Maybe they were not aware that the boy was the one they were being called for, and noticed their mistake too late, then already being very close. Maybe they say the wepaon early and considered surprising overwhelming by rapid approach the best chance to avoid being getting fired at. We still do not know, or do we?
Why they were rushing onto the scene and stopped in front of the boy that suddenly, must be examined. The opening of fire afterwards only seems to be the logical result from that first event. Look how they jumpoed behind the car to take cover. I am quite sure they both thought that danger was imminent.
In a country with so much gun-crime and gun-incidents like the US it certainly is no clever idea to let people play with fake guns that mimic the originals so closely that you cannot differ them from real once at first glance. These ultra-realistically looking toys do not belong into toy shops.
For the time being I assume that the cops were surprised by the situation, maybe it was their responsibility due to the way of their approach, maybe not - we don't know so far. But I also assume that racist attitudes or motives play no role in this case.
If it was not their fault or they had good reasons to approach the way they did, I hope they will not get "sacrificed" to avoid "spilling fuel" inot the fire over Ferguson because officials think they must not let another officer "off the hook" and then face an angry public.
Armistead
11-27-14, 10:54 AM
I can't attach criminality to the cops in the shooting of the 12 year old, they were told black male pointing gun. My point is this, in most cases you know someone is pointing a gun, seldom do you go flying in like that where the crime is being reported, leaving them no option other than the one they had. There were no reports of shots fired and they should have drove up on the situation slowly until they had visuals on the threat. Had that been a grown male with a real gun with intent to kill, that cop would've probably died because of the mistake made to come charging in...
u crank
11-27-14, 10:56 AM
The opening of fire afterwards only seems to be the logical result from that first event. Look how they jumped behind the car to take cover. I am quite sure they both thought that danger was imminent.
I think you should watch the video again. Officer in passenger seat shoots before driver gets out of car. Approximately 2 seconds. How they could think they are in danger has to be addressed. To me there seems to be many ways this could have been handled but this was the worst way. I don't understand.
Skybird
11-27-14, 11:09 AM
As I said: the reason why they rushed in by car like this needs examination. Everything after that looks like logical consequence to me.
Either they had a good reason to rush in, or they had not. Needs to be clearified.
u crank
11-27-14, 11:20 AM
As I said: the reason why they rushed in by car like this needs examination.
There seems to be no logical reason. No shots were fired, no attempt was made to talk to the victim and it does not seem like they attempted to gauge the situation from a distance. The only other mistake they didn't make was to run over him.
Everything after that looks like logical consequence to me.
I guess so, if shooting someone 2 seconds after arriving on scene is logical.
Armistead
11-27-14, 11:27 AM
As I said: the reason why they rushed in by car like this needs examination. Everything after that looks like logical consequence to me.
Either they had a good reason to rush in, or they had not. Needs to be clearified.
C'mon, there is no logical reason to rush in charging like that. Heck, even when someone is gunning down kids in a schools, police don't go charging in..
Damn poor protocol.
He doesn't seem to have the gun on his hand, but he grabs it from his waist when the cops arrive. I don't know why he does that, maybe he panicked or something, but I can see why a cop would make a "split-second decision" in that situation.
Tragic nevertheless. :-?
Skybird
11-27-14, 11:47 AM
There seems to be no logical reason. No shots were fired, no attempt was made to talk to the victim and it does not seem like they attempted to gauge the situation from a distance. The only other mistake they didn't make was to run over him.
I guess so, if shooting someone 2 seconds after arriving on scene is logical.
When somebody, kid or not, holds in his hands what you see is as a firearm - you would wait until he has fully aimed it at your head and pulled the trigger, yes?
"Talking to the victim", you said. All nice as long as there is still time to talk. In that situation, when assuming the firearm was a live one, there was no time, not even one second.
The case stands and falls with the reason why they thought they must rush onto the scene like that. I would like to hear their reasons before judging the event.
Skybird
11-27-14, 11:52 AM
He doesn't seem to have the gun on his hand, but he grabs it from his waist when the cops arrive.
Indeed, other video footage they released showed him having walked with the pistol in his hand, pointing it at people.
Catfish
11-27-14, 12:05 PM
OT, but when people are being killed just because of metadata, what do you expect from the police ? After all it is one nation, and way of thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV2HDM86XgI#t=1080
:hmmm:
u crank
11-27-14, 12:20 PM
When somebody, kid or not, holds in his hands what you see is as a firearm - you would wait until he has fully aimed it at your head and pulled the trigger, yes?
Again I will ask, why are they approaching a person who has not fired a shot in a manner like this???
"Talking to the victim", you said. All nice as long as there is still time to talk. In that situation, when assuming the firearm was a live one, there was no time, not even one second.
From the video it is obvious that they did not take the time.
The case stands and falls with the reason why they thought they must rush onto the scene like that. I would like to hear their reasons before judging the event.
I agree but since no one was shot, no shots were fired and appraising the situation from a distance would have revealed that this was a 12 year old child, I think the outcome would have been different. Surely Police officers are better trained than this.
Skybird
11-27-14, 03:24 PM
For the THIRd time now, u_crank:
1. I said the reasons why the car approached the suspect the way it did, needs examination.
2. we agree, they did not take the time to talk. Which, different than for you, for me is no surprise since the video showed the suspect drawing a weapon (or what the cops needed to take for a weapon).
3. If the child would have obeyed the police's order (police says that the officers asked the boy to raise his hands) instead of "playing" on and drawing the toy-weapon, apparently the cops would not have fired. It was a split-second decision the cops had to make. The boy did probably not realise how dangerous situation was when the police called him, his mind fantasizing his game world instead.
Media also say that an orange marker that seems to be glued onto american toy weapons, had been scratched off the boy's toy pistol, which made it even more difficult if not impossible to recognise the toy as a toy. A toy that was designed to look like the real thing. ;)
Now lean back, take a deep breath, and think about it before answering once again to me as if I would have said nothing until here. ;)
Possibly the media sooner or later will tell us why the car was driving like it did. The cops' motive for driving like that is what decides this case. But note: the police speaker says that the cops had time enough to demand the boy to raise his hands - and instead he immediately drew his toy-weapon without that orange marker identifying it as a toy instead. That'S what the media currently report.
u crank
11-27-14, 04:06 PM
For the THIRd time now, u_crank:
:D
1. I said the reasons why the car approached the suspect the way it did, needs examination.
Yes it does.
If the child would have obeyed the police's order
When did they give this order? The officer shoots immediately. Did they give this order from a distance? If so why then did they then drive up to his location? Makes no sense as if they thought they were in danger they would have taken cover, not go closer to the danger.
But note: the police speaker says that the cops had time enough to demand the boy to raise his hands - and instead he immediately drew his toy-weapon without that orange marker identifying it as a toy instead. That'S what the media currently report.
From the linked article.
Authorities said the boy was told to raise his hands and was shot when he pulled the pellet gun from his waistband, though he hadn't pointed it at police or made verbal threats.
This statement was obviously made before the video was released. Child was shot on Saturday. Video was released Wednesday. Try to keep up.:O:
Now lean back, take a deep breath, and think about it before answering once again to me as if I would have said nothing until here. ;)
Okay, I have. My advice to you is to get all the facts in order first.:03:
Armistead
11-27-14, 04:32 PM
Police clearly didn't follow protocol....and clearly they didn't give warnings to get hands up in one second.
Had that been a grown male with a real gun with intent to kill, that cop would've probably died because of the mistake made to come charging in...
Definitely a possibility. On the other hand we can't have our police forces making that their default assumption.
Armistead
11-27-14, 08:30 PM
Definitely a possibility. On the other hand we can't have our police forces making that their default assumption.
Who knows, kid probably was gonna grow up in the hood and end up the thug, but could've been the CEO of his own company....We'll never know because of the poor protocol used by the officers...
We'll never know because of the poor protocol used by the officers...
I would imagine that the officer who pulled the trigger will never forget it. It must weigh heavily on his conscience.
Armistead
11-27-14, 09:55 PM
I would imagine that the officer who pulled the trigger will never forget it. It must weigh heavily on his conscience.
Well, he wasn't driving and I don't know the conversation in the car, but someone made a choice to charge right up putting him in a very dangerous position.
And no doubt a lil lying going on about the commands to cover their asses..
Police clearly didn't follow protocol....and clearly they didn't give warnings to get hands up in one second.
Of course after all this you would think there would be a huge call increase training on police officers, to be more strict on them following protocol, and be more strict on weeding out the police that have prejudices. You know, attempt to actually use these incidents to make things better, but nope, I bet all it will do is just increase the militarization of the police.
Maybe I'm just crazy, it's probable, but in a country like the U.S. that considers having guns a sacred right more important than having food, shelter, or good healthcare; with groups that even advocate you being armed at all times. I would think that having a police force exceptionally trained to deal with armed individuals in a non-lethal way would be the highest priority.
Armistead
11-28-14, 10:14 AM
Well, it's mostly about economics, most cities don't have the money or if they do, rather use it elsewhere for their pet projects. Don't you know police depts around America were happy to get all the military surplus for free or cheap.
Sure, a lot could be done, require body cams, must have college education, two cops to each car, weeks of paid stress vacation, much more training, updated non lethal weapons, decent pay, etc....
Our inner city problems seem to be where most the problems like Brown arise. In our "War against Poverty" in the 60's we created numerous social and welfare structures that did nothing but destroy the black family unit and created ghettos in almost every US city big and small. Before all the welfare, the black family was still intact, since it started illegitimacy has increased to 70% among blacks and also somewhat higher for poorer whites. A majority of violent crime happens in the inner city areas of poverty.
America is much different than any nation on earth, because we're a large melting pot of races, cultures, religions and political beliefs. While we like to claim it's what makes us great, it's really becoming a recipe of mass disaster.....
Catfish
11-28-14, 10:59 AM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/Rockwell-Freda-image_zpsae6f9b57.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/Rockwell-Freda-image_zpsae6f9b57.jpg.html)
Armistead
11-28-14, 12:42 PM
For those not living in America, that don't understand how it goes down in the ghetto when things like this happens, this short article explains it well. This is what cops and honest witnesses have to deal with..
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/11/28/IN-FERGUSON-WITNESS-INTIMIDATION-LYING-BY-COMMUNITY-OF-COLOR
And for those that think it's bias, the witnesses that jumped in front of the cameras right away, changed their stories numerous times in front of the GJ. Those scared blacks that came forward later, their accounts didn't change and connected well with all the evidence...
BossMark
11-29-14, 03:09 AM
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/rothwellwhite1/yoMcCU1_zpsa42800b6.png
Armistead
11-29-14, 03:53 AM
While those not living in America should understand that it happens everywhere, apart from the last part as most civilised countries don't have the death penalty.
Our legal is system is 10% justice, 90% profit driven..
Betonov
11-29-14, 04:01 AM
Our legal is system is 10% justice, 90% profit driven..
So is ours, but we focus on fines
Armistead
11-29-14, 12:23 PM
So your justice system doesn't do justice.
That makes the protesters who complain about a lack of justice in the US correct doesn't it.:yep:
Not really, we mostly punish for profit. Heck, we got to let the murderers and rapist out to make room for the non violent reoffending pot smoker. I know prison ain't supposed to be rehab, but a good majority come out much worse than when they went in.
Armistead
11-29-14, 12:39 PM
So is ours, but we focus on fines
Oh hell, we love fines as well, our system will fine ya, take your stuff, etc.
Told it once before, I got stopped years ago. I was several states away working near Texas and on my way home. Really wasn't stopped, had a flat tire on my trailer being pulled by a van. Obvious he thought I might be a dope runner, so he asked questions and wanted to search. When I said "no", it opened up a can of unconstitutional whoopass on me. You know what started it...I had to get the cop to call a guy to change my tire. When I paid him, I pulled a large wad of cash out of my pocket, probably about $2000 in a roll. In America, it's probable cause to a cop if you carry lots of cash, even if you're white.......They took my money, said a dog hit on my van, tore it apart, trailer as well, threw my clothes in the mud, etc. The dog probably hit on my meds, some narcotics, but I told him I had them, even showed...But seems people use legal meds to try to foil drug hits from dogs as an excuse, so they did a long search, about two hours and still kept asking me where my drugs were....Bet I had 10 cop cars out there, few higher ups, etc....I didn't think I was gonna get my money back. Ending, they were probably just pissed when I declared my right to say "no".
Thank God I was white, proved I was a legit contractor, working where I said I was. So, I picked my clothes out of the mud, put all my equipment, some broken by the cops, back in my trailer....and drove home..
Thankfully they never found my stash in the air filter...:03:
Betonov
11-29-14, 01:03 PM
Oh hell, we love fines as well, our system will fine ya, take your stuff, etc.
Told it once before, I got stopped years ago...
Had a similar incident. Almost similar.
Was driving a bit too fast and (night time) never noticed a cop shadowing me.
Problem is that without a radar (or a speed trap) he can't prove I was speeding and with that a low breech of limit the video footage on his dashcam was not valid. So he proceeded to search the car, hoping he'd find something to book me. Found an old sandwich wrapper, a bag of chips, seashells and a lot of dog hair :haha:
The breath alcohol test was 0,0 and he had to admit defeat, gave a lecture about speeding and then drove of at twice the speed I was caught :nope:
Keep in mind, being delayed by cops for 10min like I was, is considered police brutality here
Wolferz
11-29-14, 02:09 PM
Oh hell, we love fines as well, our system will fine ya, take your stuff, etc.
Told it once before, I got stopped years ago. I was several states away working near Texas and on my way home. Really wasn't stopped, had a flat tire on my trailer being pulled by a van. Obvious he thought I might be a dope runner, so he asked questions and wanted to search. When I said "no", it opened up a can of unconstitutional whoopass on me. You know what started it...I had to get the cop to call a guy to change my tire. When I paid him, I pulled a large wad of cash out of my pocket, probably about $2000 in a roll. In America, it's probable cause to a cop if you carry lots of cash, even if you're white.......They took my money, said a dog hit on my van, tore it apart, trailer as well, threw my clothes in the mud, etc. The dog probably hit on my meds, some narcotics, but I told him I had them, even showed...But seems people use legal meds to try to foil drug hits from dogs as an excuse, so they did a long search, about two hours and still kept asking me where my drugs were....Bet I had 10 cop cars out there, few higher ups, etc....I didn't think I was gonna get my money back. Ending, they were probably just pissed when I declared my right to say "no".
Thank God I was white, proved I was a legit contractor, working where I said I was. So, I picked my clothes out of the mud, put all my equipment, some broken by the cops, back in my trailer....and drove home..
Thankfully they never found my stash in the air filter...:03:
Heck no they don't like pulling over a law abiding citizen who knows and exercises his rights. They want pushovers who they can bully and steal from.
Air filter stash?
A fake charcoal canister is the way to go.:up:
I trust the dog hit was just one of their commonly used lies? Though I think they have some of the dogs trained to do that. Were you in Tennessee? Those boys can't tell the difference between a pot leaf and a Buckeye.
The physical evidence in the Michael Brown case supported the officer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/28/the-physical-evidence-in-the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/)
"...Wilson testified before the grand jury that Brown reached for his (Wilson’s) gun and a struggle for the gun followed, during which Wilson fired two shots. Later, Wilson pursued Brown and, after he turned and then charged toward Wilson, fired multiple shots bringing him to the ground about 8 to 10 feet away from him.
The physical evidence is consistent with his testimony..."
...and then, there are moments that give you hope:
http://news.yahoo.com/portlands-ferguson-protest-boy-hugs-officer-174417767.html
<O>
Armistead
11-29-14, 03:18 PM
Heck no they don't like pulling over a law abiding citizen who knows and exercises his rights. They want pushovers who they can bully and steal from.
Air filter stash?
A fake charcoal canister is the way to go.:up:
I trust the dog hit was just one of their commonly used lies? Though I think they have some of the dogs trained to do that. Were you in Tennessee? Those boys can't tell the difference between a pot leaf and a Buckeye.
I'd just came into Georgia.. I did have meds in my truck for my nerve disease which we took out. It looked like the typical false alert command cops do with dogs to get their free look into your vehicle, but possible he reacted to where my meds were....
Hehe, obvious I was jok'n about the stash.....
I did send in forms and pictures of damage done to my equipment, but I never heard anything and just said screw it after one last letter, about $400 worth of damage.
Honestly, when I said no, it was total disrespect on their part...
Rockstar
11-29-14, 03:19 PM
Oh hell, we love fines as well, our system will fine ya, take your stuff, etc.
Told it once before, I got stopped years ago. I was several states away working near Texas and on my way home. Really wasn't stopped, had a flat tire on my trailer being pulled by a van. Obvious he thought I might be a dope runner, so he asked questions and wanted to search. When I said "no", it opened up a can of unconstitutional whoopass on me. You know what started it...I had to get the cop to call a guy to change my tire. When I paid him, I pulled a large wad of cash out of my pocket, probably about $2000 in a roll. In America, it's probable cause to a cop if you carry lots of cash, even if you're white.......They took my money, said a dog hit on my van, tore it apart, trailer as well, threw my clothes in the mud, etc. The dog probably hit on my meds, some narcotics, but I told him I had them, even showed...But seems people use legal meds to try to foil drug hits from dogs as an excuse, so they did a long search, about two hours and still kept asking me where my drugs were....Bet I had 10 cop cars out there, few higher ups, etc....I didn't think I was gonna get my money back. Ending, they were probably just pissed when I declared my right to say "no".
Thank God I was white, proved I was a legit contractor, working where I said I was. So, I picked my clothes out of the mud, put all my equipment, some broken by the cops, back in my trailer....and drove home..
Thankfully they never found my stash in the air filter...:03:
In my experience if you did as you claim have a stash and it was known by others particularly by someone you may have recently pissed off. The police might have been acting on a tip by an anonymous caller and went straight into a 'secondary' search.
Dread Knot
11-29-14, 03:29 PM
Bet I had 10 cop cars out there, few higher ups, etc....
You probably had the local Grand Dragon out there as well and didn't know it. You should have given the Klan salute and you're on your way, son. :D
http://i.imgur.com/7PINJxK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uXKRXe2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yQfKldE.jpg
CaptainHaplo
11-30-14, 02:15 AM
Blacks are 7 times more likely to commit a crime in the US. Whether that is caused by economics, social constructs, genetics or whatever else is cause for debate.
What is not debatable is that when the riots hit Ferguson, they didn't target "the racist police" or government that supposedly represses the black community - instead they targeted the local liquor store, the shoe store with all the Nike products, the McDonald's and Taco Bell. Not one of those businesses had anything to do with the shooting, or the subsequent non-indictment.
A woman lost her hair salon because rioters looted and burned it down. She is a woman of color - a small business owner who was trying to provide a usable service to her community - and what did it get her? She is just one of many in Ferguson to suffer at the hands of the rioters wanting "justice for Mike Brown".
The guy who runs the convenience store that Mike Brown stole from - you know, the little guy that the "gentle giant" Brown assaulted while stealing from him - his store got looted too.
There are a lot of stories like that out of Ferguson. But the rioters don't care - free burgers, free shoes, free big screen TV's - all in the name of "justice".
Yes, if you are black in Ferguson, you are 2x more likely to be arrested than if you are white. Then again - 85% of the people there are black - so demographics would indicate that number would be expected to be way higher.
Most of the people arrested in the riots and demonstrations? Not from Ferguson.
People torching buildings? Not from Ferguson.
Know what most folks in Ferguson have been doing? Regardless of race - they have mostly been keeping their distance from any of this crap.
Is racism alive? Sure it is.
Racism is NOT, however, merely a white oppressing black equation. If you are white and think it is - try walking the streets of a "hood" neighborhood by yourself in any major city in the US at night.
Racism won't end - but the black community could do a heck of a lot in seeing it lessen if they didn't consistently go out and act like a stereotypical "black thug".
Wolferz
11-30-14, 03:08 AM
We have thugs in every color and from every walk in life.
They don't belong on our streets and they certainly don't belong in our police ranks. Officer Wilson made critical errors in the performance of his duty that August day and a young fellow lost his life as a result. Was it Wilson's fault? Yes. Yes it was.
I don't think it's standard procedure to roll up next to someone and start barking orders through your open window. Those patrol cars are equipped with a public address speaker tied into the two way radio. Wilson could have given his orders from a very safe distance and not gotten out of the car until Brown complied or back up arrived on scene to assist.
No matter now. The point is moot since Wilson has decided to resign.
Wilson screwed up and look at what it caused in it's aftermath.:nope:
It's disgusting.
@Wolferz Nobody forced Michael Brown to assault Wilson.
Wolferz
11-30-14, 05:05 AM
@Wolferz Nobody forced Michael Brown to assault Wilson.
True that. But, Wilson put himself in a position to be assaulted. Was Wilson so arrogant that he falsely assumed he would have instant respect from a man twice his size? And that he would get immediate obedience from a possible suspect because he was wearing a badge?
I've seen the pictures of Wilson that were taken at the hospital. He only suffered a minor abrasion to his right cheek that I could see. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that Michael Brown was innocent in this altercation but, neither was officer Wilson who was supposed to be a trained professional policeman. We don't know what actually transpired in the way of conversation prior to Brown seeking to grab the gun but, I'm thinking that Michael Brown had delusions of being a badass because of his size and he found out the consequences of being young and dumb and not very wise. Now he's dead. Ferguson is half burned down and a police officer is seeking employment. Hopefully in a different career field.
All of it preventable if the officer had done his job right.
Betonov
11-30-14, 05:22 AM
It's everyone's fault.
Brown could have not took an agresive stance against Wilson, Wilson could have responded differently or maybe even used his baton against an unarmed thug, the state could have focused more on non-lethal training for officers, the state could not have let the economy deteriorate to a level that blacks choose a thug life and not of an employed citizen (and that means not just the current administration) and let's not forget the media, the modern plague, that stoked the fires by sensational reporting.
Wolferz
11-30-14, 06:12 AM
It's everyone's fault.
Brown could have not took an agresive stance against Wilson, Wilson could have responded differently or maybe even used his baton against an unarmed thug, the state could have focused more on non-lethal training for officers, the state could not have let the economy deteriorate to a level that blacks choose a thug life and not of an employed citizen (and that means not just the current administration) and let's not forget the media, the modern plague, that stoked the fires by sensational reporting.
Yellow journalism does a great deal to incite these things. But, unfortunately, the fifth estate is protected by our constitution.
And yes, when the finger of blame gets pointed, there are three more fingers pointing back at the accuser. That's why I point like an Army drill instructor. You get all five of them at once bby.:stare:
The really sad part about it is that the authorities see these problems, or turn a blind eye, and do little to nothing to correct them because they are so entrenched in their way of doing things. In the end it's all about the money.
Thankfully, I won't be around too much longer to witness more of the same old Bovine Scattology. I'll leave war zone Earth behind and I won't look back.:rock: Good luck to all of you in the coming apocalypse.
Fin
Betonov
11-30-14, 06:15 AM
Thankfully, I won't be around too much longer to witness more of the same old Bovine Scattology. I'll leave war zone Earth behind and I won't look back.:rock: Good luck to all of you in the coming apocalypse.
Fin
That sounded... morbid :hmmm:
Jimbuna
11-30-14, 07:48 AM
That sounded... morbid :hmmm:
Yeah, that's the second similar reference from him in recent days :hmm2:
@Wolferz...I don't mean to intrude on anything that is obviously none of my business but please PM me if you think it appropriate.
Blacks are 7 times more likely to commit a crime in the US.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2264326&postcount=390
:hmmm:
Armistead
11-30-14, 09:23 AM
True that. But, Wilson put himself in a position to be assaulted. Was Wilson so arrogant that he falsely assumed he would have instant respect from a man twice his size? And that he would get immediate obedience from a possible suspect because he was wearing a badge?
I've seen the pictures of Wilson that were taken at the hospital. He only suffered a minor abrasion to his right cheek that I could see. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that Michael Brown was innocent in this altercation but, neither was officer Wilson who was supposed to be a trained professional policeman. We don't know what actually transpired in the way of conversation prior to Brown seeking to grab the gun but, I'm thinking that Michael Brown had delusions of being a badass because of his size and he found out the consequences of being young and dumb and not very wise. Now he's dead. Ferguson is half burned down and a police officer is seeking employment. Hopefully in a different career field.
All of it preventable if the officer had done his job right.
First, for right or wrong and my brother n law that worked the hood for years says disrespect" is the lingo. What he means is, the banter is rather extreme from both sides and this is how they talk and communicate. Cops walking the beat or driving through hear and talk back to them the same way. Simply, if you talk and act like a pussy, the public will treat and try to run over you like one...
Wilson, as in many recent numerous cases made a mistake by closing the distance to where he could be attacked in seconds, but that isn't criminal.
OTT, having read all the witness statements, Wilson's story seems to hold truth. Those witnesses, like his friend Dorian, obvious lied. They stirred the crowd and many that didn't see anything jumped in front of the camera claiming they did, outrageous crap like Wilson shot him in the back with hands up. Luckily a large number of blacks came forward to the GJ say'n these social media camera pimps were lying and they told the truth.
Armistead
11-30-14, 09:49 AM
It's everyone's fault.
Brown could have not took an agresive stance against Wilson, Wilson could have responded differently or maybe even used his baton against an unarmed thug, the state could have focused more on non-lethal training for officers, the state could not have let the economy deteriorate to a level that blacks choose a thug life and not of an employed citizen (and that means not just the current administration) and let's not forget the media, the modern plague, that stoked the fires by sensational reporting.
Economics do play a role, but they shouldn't be an excuse to do crime. As I said, when we started the war on poverty in the 60's with all the govt. entitlements, we destroyed the black family unit and created the inner city ghetto. In 1940, the illegitimacy rate among blacks was 19 percent, in 1960, 22 percent, today it's over 70%. Our system rewards poor and immoral behavior. If you remain single, the more kids you have out of wedlock, the more welfare, food stamps, free housing, etc., you get. Yes, whites get more welfare, do more crime by the numbers, but percent per population, blacks being about 13%, it is much higher. With all the money govt. has thrown at entitlements, things keep getting much worse for the black race, even when the general economy is good. Today, about 45% of black males are convicted felons.
Don't know how true it is, but my good black friends says black kids are called "lottery tickets" in that they're basically ignored by a single parent until they get shot by a cop and then the parent appears to be a loving and decent parent, but just hoping for a big payout. Brown's stepfather was a felon, gang member, etc. Look at the facts, Brown was doomed from the start, passed around different family members. Brown has a sealed juvi criminal record and we learn he was known as one of the worse bullies in one of the worse schools.
Back to economics, poverty shouldn't dictate you live as a criminal. Hecks, through most of Americas history, white and black, people lived poor and without compared to those claiming poverty today. Still, families remained intact, took pride in what they had. I think today it's perception, today you see people with so much and you feel you should have it too.
Yes, a lot more could be done. Most police depts get little funding compared to the job they do. Fact is, most cities don't have the money. Be nice if all cops were required a college education, weeks of vacations, all had body cams, all had partners, instead of one to a car, advanced non lethal weapons, high pay, ......The worse cities usually have the less advanced depts...
Sailor Steve
11-30-14, 11:27 AM
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2264326&postcount=390
:hmmm:
That's a good answer, but I believe it be slightly skewed by the fact that the overall population of the United States is only 13% black. How skewed, as in how does it affect the crime percentages? I don't know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
That's a good answer, but I believe it be slightly skewed by the fact that the overall population of the United States is only 13% black. How skewed, as in how does it affect the crime percentages? I don't know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
223,553,265 White people, of which 6,502,919 are arrested, that's a percentage of about three percent.
38,929,319 (although the FBI definition of 'Black' and the wiki definitions may vary, but let's just roll with this) African-American people in the US, of which 2,640,067 are arrested. that's a percentage of 7 percent.
So by percentages it is higher, I'll grant that, although I doubt it's seven times higher. :03:
Sailor Steve
11-30-14, 12:42 PM
although I doubt it's seven times higher. :03:
No, it doesn't seem to be that much. More like 2.3333 times higher. That would also have to be juggled for the different cities or states in which the crime is taking place. There are many variables involved. That said, your point is the better one.
No, it doesn't seem to be that much. More like 2.3333 times higher. That would also have to be juggled for the different cities or states in which the crime is taking place. There are many variables involved. That said, your point is the better one.
The statistics that I'd like to see released are the number of US citizens shot by US police per year, broken down to race, age, etc, because there has been a lot of claims floating around, based upon research undertaken by various organisations and it would be nice to actually have an official stamp on the figure. I believe they do record firearms discharges, but not actual fatalities. Congress did ask the Attorney General to compile and publish an annual report on it back in 1994, but that never happened.
One, perhaps alarmist, perhaps not, report I have seen that indicates that you are 21 times more likely to be shot by the police if you are a black male. http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white
So, either which way you look at it, although there might be 2.223% higher chance of being a victim of crime by a black person in the US, a black person in the US is at far greater risk of being shot by the police force.
Food for thought, as they say. Would be nice to get official figures on it, but then, would people trust them? That's the key word at the end of the day and there's not a lot of it floating about. :salute:
CaptainHaplo
11-30-14, 11:42 PM
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2264326&postcount=390
:hmmm:
Oberon - thank you - I misquoted.
[quote] Crime Rates
Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.
Interracial Crime
Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Source: http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.pdf
Granted - those are "old" numbers, so the math may not still hold perfectly using current FBI numbers. However, how many crimes involving criminals (of every color) do not result in arrests or convictions?
Or maybe I should put this in a real life scenario for you... How many white people were looting and burning businesses in Ferguson?
Truth - sometimes hurts.
Schroeder
12-01-14, 06:50 AM
So, either which way you look at it, although there might be 2.223% higher chance of being a victim of crime by a black person in the US, a black person in the US is at far greater risk of being shot by the police force.
I think you mean 222.3% more likely....Big difference.:88)
Source: http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.pdf
:hmmm: mmmyeah, do you have a source that isn't from Jared Taylor?
Granted - those are "old" numbers, so the math may not still hold perfectly using current FBI numbers. However, how many crimes involving criminals (of every color) do not result in arrests or convictions?
If we're going for racial related 'hate' crimes, here's the statistics for last year:
48.3 percent of the 5,790 single-bias incidents were racially motivated, while 19.6 percent resulted from sexual orientation bias and 19 percent from religious bias.
Of the 7,164 hate crime victims, 55.4 percent were victims of crimes against persons and 41.8 percent were victims of crimes against property. The remaining 2.8 percent were victims of crimes against society (like drug offenses, gambling, and prostitution).
39.6 percent of the victims of crimes against persons suffered simple assaults, while 37.5 percent were intimidated and 21.5 percent were victims of aggravated assault. (Law enforcement also reported 10 murders and 15 rapes as hate crimes.)
An overwhelming majority—75.6 percent—of the victims of crimes against property were victimized by acts of destruction, damage, and/or vandalism.
Of the 5,331 known offenders, 54.6 percent were white and 23.3 percent were black.
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2013/november/annual-hate-crime-statistics-show-slight-decease/annual-hate-crime-statistics-show-slight-decrease
Or maybe I should put this in a real life scenario for you... How many white people were looting and burning businesses in Ferguson?
I can respond to that with a question, how many white people are there in Ferguson? Over sixty percent of the population of Ferguson are black. Therefore it logically dictates that you're going to see more black looters from the surrounding area in Ferguson than white...but, of course, if looting and rioting in America is limited solely to blacks, then how does one explain
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0R7cutIQAAxupo.jpg
Perhaps one should look at the language the media uses in situations like this?
http://cloudfront-media.reason.com/mc/_external/2014_10/-34.jpg?h=600&w=600
Truth - sometimes hurts.
Depends on how truthful it is.
Perhaps it's my reasonophobia striking again...I seem to be suffering from it more and more around this place lately. :doh:
I think you mean 222.3% more likely....Big difference.:88)
Don't you tell me where I can stick my decimal point, mister. :O:
Rockstar
12-01-14, 09:56 AM
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/66e37001d56904f00b04fe507e68f220.jpg
Armistead
12-01-14, 01:09 PM
Be fair, he (Taylor)is a white separatist not a white supremacist.
As such he simply believes that the "Aryan" race is superior and must separated so as not be diluted by mixing with inferior mud races.
The superiority of the white folks is scientifically proven by the shape of their skulls and by their penis being smaller.:yep:
Its good stuff, I am glad people link to this sort of material so you can clearly see what their views are based on and what they consider as evidence to support those views.
I wonder why the smarter you are, the smaller your penis is? Really, if the penis scale holds, blacks largest, chinese smallest, does it show the smarter we men get, the less we need to concern ourselves with pleasing women:hmmm:
Betonov
12-01-14, 02:17 PM
Armistead, are you calling me an idiot ??????
http://1.images.southparkstudios.com/blogs/southparkstudios.com/files/2013/06/so-small.jpg
CaptainHaplo
12-01-14, 08:18 PM
Well when people can move past discussions of the size of their supposed manhood - perhaps a return to the conversation at hand is in order.
Don't like Color of Crime. Ok - fair enough.
How about the US Department of Justice? Are they racist too?
The Violent Crime Index arrest rate in 2011 for black juveniles (627) was 5 times the rate for white (125) youth, 6 times the rate for American Indian juveniles (105), and 15 times the rate for Asian juveniles (41).
Per the source - that number was ~7x the rate in around 1992.
Source: http://ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/JAR_Display.asp?ID=qa05261
Or maybe the FBI - since ya'll so loved to quote them....
In 2012, the latest year FBI data is available, 48.2% (4101) of all murder suspects arrested were white. 49.4% (4203) were black. Given that there are roughly 37.6 million blacks in the US, that comes out to a ratio of 1 black murderer per 8,945 black people. In contrast, of the estimated 245.5 million whites in the US, the ratio comes out to 1 white murderer per 59,871 white people.
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf
Thus - a black person is 6.69 (rounded to 7) times more likely to commit murder using the FBI's own latest published numbers. Unless you want to yell that they are all racists as well....
The numbers are what they are. They show that on average, blacks significantly more likely to commit murder. You can argue about WHY that is (and I firmly believe that the reasons are heavily social and economic), but you can't dispute fact. No matter how you try.
Committing a crime - any crime - is a matter of choice regardless of race. While everything from "genetics" to "poverty" to "social repression" may play a role in how an individual comes to choose crime, it does not in any way absolve that individual from the repercussions of his or her actions.
Michael Brown got justice. Get high, rob a store, assault a cop and try to steal the cop's gun. To partially quote Michael Jackson: "Don't matter if your black or white" - your likely to get killed.
Well when people can move past discussions of the size of their supposed manhood - perhaps a return to the conversation at hand is in order.
Don't like Color of Crime. Ok - fair enough.
How about the US Department of Justice? Are they racist too?
Debatable, but let's have a looksee.
That's arrest rates, not conviction rates. Unless the US justice system has changed while I wasn't looking, a person is not guilty until they are convicted. Of course that hasn't stopped certain American organisations from skipping the whole system and just lynching people in the past, but there you go.
Per the source - that number was ~7x the rate in around 1992.
Source: http://ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/JAR_Display.asp?ID=qa05261
Now that's a source that I can agree with, and I will concede that if one was to look at the homicide rate amongst juveniles, the black section is higher than the white, although not by much and certainly not as much as in the early 1990s.
Or maybe the FBI - since ya'll so loved to quote them....
In 2012, the latest year FBI data is available, 48.2% (4101) of all murder suspects arrested were white. 49.4% (4203) were black. Given that there are roughly 37.6 million blacks in the US, that comes out to a ratio of 1 black murderer per 8,945 black people. In contrast, of the estimated 245.5 million whites in the US, the ratio comes out to 1 white murderer per 59,871 white people.
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf
You've probably missed a few posts down where I did this kinda math already. I believe me and Steve worked out that it was 2.333 times higher amount of black criminals to white, not seven times as you had already claimed.
Thus - a black person is 6.69 (rounded to 7) times more likely to commit murder using the FBI's own latest published numbers. Unless you want to yell that they are all racists as well....
Well, I don't think the FBI is funded by the people who supported the Nazi party, unless you want to believe in various conspiracy theories...
The numbers are what they are. They show that on average, blacks significantly more likely to commit murder. You can argue about WHY that is (and I firmly believe that the reasons are heavily social and economic), but you can't dispute fact. No matter how you try.
That's fair enough.
Committing a crime - any crime - is a matter of choice regardless of race. While everything from "genetics" to "poverty" to "social repression" may play a role in how an individual comes to choose crime, it does not in any way absolve that individual from the repercussions of his or her actions.
Michael Brown got justice. Get high, rob a store, assault a cop and try to steal the cop's gun. To partially quote Michael Jackson: "Don't matter if your black or white" - your likely to get killed.
The problem is all those who have been shot who weren't guilty, to automatically assume the guilt on the dead party is convenient as they can't argue back, but it's also a one way trip to a police state, and considering how many Americans I have seen rant and rave that Obama is a totalitarian and all this fear in America of the government gaining ultimate power, there's an awful lot of silence when the police abuse their power. That is something I find...odd.
I'd like to see figures published on victims of police shootings, how many, age, sex, race, etc. Like I've already said, the US Congress already asked the Attorney General to publish an annual report on this back in 1994 but it never happened. So we're left with external publications making lists, and the accuracy of that can be called into question.
Coming back to the actual event in hand, if it is true that Brown went for the cops gun, then he would have been very lucky to have walked away from that confrontation without a bullet in him. I'm not going to paint Brown as an angel, nor am I going to paint him as sub-human, he is an ordinary flawed human being.
Now, you mentioned social and economic circumstances, and I think that is, if anything, a major part of what this discussion should be about, because it's too easy to just sit back and dismiss this situation as "just another black criminal" when the anger behind the shooting is not just about Brown, but for all the other people who have been shot dead by the police, be they black or white (and I have already shown black people protesting with the names of dead white people on their boards several pages ago) but since (at least according to some data) you're 21 times more likely to be shot by the police if you're black, it's mainly the black community which has been angered by this.
I think when you have a police force which has better equipment than the soldiers you're sending into warzones, then serious questions really do need to be asked. Armistead has brought up several good points in this thread about the allocation of the financial resources which are put into police departments and that's another thing that perhaps should be looked at.
But brushing it under the carpet because it was a black guy? Because he may have been involved in a criminal act? It's a convenient and easy way to deal with the problem, and I have no doubt that it's how 75% of America is going to deal with it...but it won't make the problem go away.
CaptainHaplo
12-02-14, 02:36 AM
That's arrest rates, not conviction rates.
True - but its the only nationwide data we have to use. If its good enough to be used by you earlier - I don't see why you don't want to use it now....
Unless the US justice system has changed while I wasn't looking, a person is not guilty until they are convicted. Of course that hasn't stopped certain American organisations from skipping the whole system and just lynching people in the past, but there you go. You mean like the rioters in Ferguson who - after Wilson was exonerated by the evidence, wanted to just lynch him anyway? Or do the standards of the Justice System only apply to the "repressed" blacks since they obviously don't think they should have to hold whiteys to that standard....
You've probably missed a few posts down where I did this kinda math already. I believe me and Steve worked out that it was 2.333 times higher amount of black criminals to white, not seven times as you had already claimed. No - I saw it. Which is why I corrected myself and noted that the seven times number came from murders/homicides - not "all violent crime". The 6.69 times (rounded to 7) number is from murder/homicides only and is therefore, accurate.
That's fair enough. Glad we can agree on something. :)
The problem is all those who have been shot who weren't guilty, to automatically assume the guilt on the dead party is convenient as they can't argue back, but it's also a one way trip to a police state, and considering how many Americans I have seen rant and rave that Obama is a totalitarian and all this fear in America of the government gaining ultimate power, there's an awful lot of silence when the police abuse their power. That is something I find...odd. I have to disagree on a couple of things here. The Ferguson riots were not about other people who have been shot without cause - they have been about outright lies told to push a vision that whitey is out there murdering innocent black folks. After all - the whole "hands up, don't shoot" stupidity came about because of the claim that Brown surrendered and was shot down - some claiming the officer even stood over him and executed him. All demonstrated false by the cold hard forensic facts.
Second, I agree with many of those who say that the police should not be armed like a military force. No reason for it and it should not be allowed. There is also no reason that various federal agencies (the BLM, EPA, FEMA, etc.) need their own "law enforcement" divisions. I also disagree with letting Law Enforcement confiscate private property (cash, land, vehicles, etc) without a judge signing off on it and a conviction against the owner. Yet it happens a lot. In fact, it is going to be a major bone of contention with the next nominee for the head of the DoJ. But founding a movement on a basis of lies while claiming to want to "fix things" doesn't bake a good cake. Its bogus and morally corrupt.
I'd like to see figures published on victims of police shootings, how many, age, sex, race, etc. Like I've already said, the US Congress already asked the Attorney General to publish an annual report on this back in 1994 but it never happened. So we're left with external publications making lists, and the accuracy of that can be called into question. I do not doubt that blacks are shot more often than whites. In fact, it would make perfect sense that more blacks are shot that whites during police encounters. Why? Because a cop is a whole lot more likely to shoot anyone (regardless of race) if they believe that the suspect represents a high danger to the cop, his/her partner, or the general public in that moment. If you know your dealing with someone who statistically is ~7 times more likely to commit a murder, your going to be a whole lot more concerned about everyone else's safety. Maybe even 7 times more concerned? So when you are mentally expecting a high likelihood of trouble, and you roll up on a black juvenile who has been pointing a gun at people in the park, and he reaches for that gun - is it any wonder the cop shoots?
Coming back to the actual event in hand, if it is true that Brown went for the cops gun, then he would have been very lucky to have walked away from that confrontation without a bullet in him. It isn't an if, the forensics showed Brown's blood on the inside of the vehicle from where he was hit a grazing wound in the hand while struggling to take the gun from the officer. Additional forensics shows that after fleeing, he then turned back to the officer and advanced at a high rate of speed with his head down - which matched the officer's rendition of events and was supported by a number of black witnesses who came forward.
I'm not going to paint Brown as an angel, nor am I going to paint him as sub-human, he is an ordinary flawed human being. Nor am I. However many have done so, and used the tragedy to further a false narrative about police brutality, racism and victimization while doing nothing more than harming others of their own community.
Now, you mentioned social and economic circumstances, and I think that is, if anything, a major part of what this discussion should be about, because it's too easy to just sit back and dismiss this situation as "just another black criminal" when the anger behind the shooting is not just about Brown, but for all the other people who have been shot dead by the police, be they black or white (and I have already shown black people protesting with the names of dead white people on their boards several pages ago) but since (at least according to some data) you're 21 times more likely to be shot by the police if you're black, it's mainly the black community which has been angered by this. Rioting, looting and burning down businesses does not further the discussion on how to insure the tragedies of shootings by cops stops. Nor does stopping traffic on major freeways in and around major cities. The problem is much less about economics or police brutality and racism - and much more about social failures within the black community. The black community has chosen to hold up as its idols those who promote hatred of others, disrespect toward women, glorification of drugs, guns and the "gangsta" lifestyle. It is that very reality that makes so many blacks think that it is acceptable to go burn down Taco Bell because whitey the cop didn't get hung on the courthouse steps - which exactly what they did. Economics? Please. Poor people of all races and colors struggle, but man the poor still don't go without their steaks and lobster bought with food stamps, their cable, drugs and big screen TV, game console, etc. paid for by cash outlays from welfare, and their housing paid for by the tax dollars of those that actually go out and work. Economics? For many blacks it is simple, why go work when you can sit home, play video games and blame how bad life sucks on whitey if you get busted with a dime bag of your favorite nose candy.
For the rest of the black community - those that truly do want to put forth the effort to better themselves - they have to deal with the fallout and the challenges that others have created for them. A business owner may overlook a person of color because of the bad rap other blacks have created. Fair? No - but reasonable. And life isn't fair.
I think when you have a police force which has better equipment than the soldiers you're sending into warzones, then serious questions really do need to be asked. Armistead has brought up several good points in this thread about the allocation of the financial resources which are put into police departments and that's another thing that perhaps should be looked at. This should always be the case - every public service department (including police and education) should have a total "sunshine policy" when it comes to financials.
But brushing it under the carpet because it was a black guy? Because he may have been involved in a criminal act? It's a convenient and easy way to deal with the problem, and I have no doubt that it's how 75% of America is going to deal with it...but it won't make the problem go away.There isn't any "may" in the equation. Between forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony from both the shooting AND the robbery, along with video evidence of Brown's assault on the shop owner, there is no doubt he was involved in some criminal activity. You don't start a discussion over major issues of race relations and police misconduct by lying about the police and adding in racial overtones that were not involved. Doing so makes a discussion fruitless. Sadly - that is what the agitators and race baiters in Ferguson did - and it is that fact that keeps any real discussion from happening.
It is titled "the master race can't do math":03:
This would explain that whole 'Thousand Year Reich' thing... :hmmm:
Schroeder
12-02-14, 12:23 PM
This would explain that whole 'Thousand Year Reich' thing... :hmmm:
Well, Adolf the Small lead us through all stages of a big empire within 12 years. Others need 1,000 for that. That's German efficiency for you!:smug:
:O:
Dread Knot
12-02-14, 01:14 PM
Just can't let go of the Old Math. :D
http://www.thoseposters.com/emailPosters/poster1234.jpg
True - but its the only nationwide data we have to use. If its good enough to be used by you earlier - I don't see why you don't want to use it now....
Fair point and my mistake, my only excuse was the time of morning I was typing that.
You mean like the rioters in Ferguson who - after Wilson was exonerated by the evidence, wanted to just lynch him anyway? Or do the standards of the Justice System only apply to the "repressed" blacks since they obviously don't think they should have to hold whiteys to that standard....
No, I think that the rioters in Ferguson were in the wrong too, and as I've already stated in this thread, I do feel some sympathy to Wilson who is not going to be safe for the rest of his life. In a way, the acquittal was probably the worse outcome for Wilson since he's now going to have to go into hiding, and it's not easy to hide in this interconnected world. I imagine they'll have to take him abroad somewhere, maybe Liberia or somewhere else the US has good ties with.
No - I saw it. Which is why I corrected myself and noted that the seven times number came from murders/homicides - not "all violent crime". The 6.69 times (rounded to 7) number is from murder/homicides only and is therefore, accurate.
Fair enough.
Glad we can agree on something. :)
I think we agree on more things than you realise but it's the surrounding matter we disagree on.
I have to disagree on a couple of things here. The Ferguson riots were not about other people who have been shot without cause - they have been about outright lies told to push a vision that whitey is out there murdering innocent black folks.
In a few instances this is not far from incorrect. Let's put it this way, if you're 21 times more likely to be shot as a black guy, but only 2 times more likely to be a criminal, then that's a disconnect of about 19.
After all - the whole "hands up, don't shoot" stupidity came about because of the claim that Brown surrendered and was shot down - some claiming the officer even stood over him and executed him. All demonstrated false by the cold hard forensic facts.
It's entirely possible that Brown did say "Don't shoot", although I don't think he raised his hands as he turned and walked towards the officers after first running. Again, further back in this thread Armistead went through the reports and put forward a fairly conclusive estimate of what happened in that situation.
Second, I agree with many of those who say that the police should not be armed like a military force. No reason for it and it should not be allowed. There is also no reason that various federal agencies (the BLM, EPA, FEMA, etc.) need their own "law enforcement" divisions. I also disagree with letting Law Enforcement confiscate private property (cash, land, vehicles, etc) without a judge signing off on it and a conviction against the owner. Yet it happens a lot. In fact, it is going to be a major bone of contention with the next nominee for the head of the DoJ. But founding a movement on a basis of lies while claiming to want to "fix things" doesn't bake a good cake. Its bogus and morally corrupt.
I think in this instance the action was a straw that broke the camels back, there's been tension mounting since Oakland and in this interconnected world it was one shooting too many.
Nor am I. However many have done so, and used the tragedy to further a false narrative about police brutality, racism and victimization while doing nothing more than harming others of their own community.
That's what some people do, but there are a lot more people who are trying to peacefully protest the incident and yet they are overshadowed by the looters.
Rioting, looting and burning down businesses does not further the discussion on how to insure the tragedies of shootings by cops stops. Nor does stopping traffic on major freeways in and around major cities.
Then what does? People have been trying to further the discussion for thirty years. When not even the Attonery-General of the United States will listen to Congress to publish the figures that people want to see, then who is going to listen to the people trying to further the discussion?
No-one. So they have to make people listen, as MLK once said "A riot is the language of the unheard".
The problem is much less about economics or police brutality and racism - and much more about social failures within the black community. The black community has chosen to hold up as its idols those who promote hatred of others, disrespect toward women, glorification of drugs, guns and the "gangsta" lifestyle. It is that very reality that makes so many blacks think that it is acceptable to go burn down Taco Bell because whitey the cop didn't get hung on the courthouse steps - which exactly what they did.
Some epic generalisation there.
Economics? Please. Poor people of all races and colors struggle, but man the poor still don't go without their steaks and lobster bought with food stamps, their cable, drugs and big screen TV, game console, etc. paid for by cash outlays from welfare, and their housing paid for by the tax dollars of those that actually go out and work. Economics? For many blacks it is simple, why go work when you can sit home, play video games and blame how bad life sucks on whitey if you get busted with a dime bag of your favorite nose candy.
And some more epic generalisation too.
For the rest of the black community - those that truly do want to put forth the effort to better themselves - they have to deal with the fallout and the challenges that others have created for them. A business owner may overlook a person of color because of the bad rap other blacks have created. Fair? No - but reasonable. And life isn't fair.
The majority will always have to deal with the actions of the vocal minority. To generalise black and poor people as drug addicts living on welfare is to make the same generalisation that all Americans are gun-toting, bible bashing, right-wing cowboys, or that all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church members.
There isn't any "may" in the equation. Between forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony from both the shooting AND the robbery, along with video evidence of Brown's assault on the shop owner, there is no doubt he was involved in some criminal activity. You don't start a discussion over major issues of race relations and police misconduct by lying about the police and adding in racial overtones that were not involved. Doing so makes a discussion fruitless. Sadly - that is what the agitators and race baiters in Ferguson did - and it is that fact that keeps any real discussion from happening.
Then perhaps what both sides need to do is move past the incident at hand and look at the bigger picture, but I don't see that happened.
There is a problem, but no-one is willing to address it, and so we'll be seeing a lot more Fergusons, maybe even another Los Angeles riot. Perhaps when a major city burns then people might start to take the situation seriously and take steps to rectify it, but I suspect by then it will be too late and the only actions that will be taken will be extremist ones and violence will be answered with violence and spiral out of control.
I don't see us making much more progress on this discussion so I shall draw it to a close here, and sit back and watch what happens in America with a morbid fascination.
Well, Adolf the Small lead us through all stages of a big empire within 12 years. Others need 1,000 for that. That's German efficiency for you!:smug:
:O:
:haha::haha::har::har::har::har: :yeah:
Sailor Steve
12-02-14, 03:08 PM
sit back and watch what happens in America with a morbid fascination.
Isn't that what it's all about? That's how we do it. :sunny:
Isn't that what it's all about? That's how we do it. :sunny:
:haha: Fair point, I guess it's all you can do when you're not the one driving the bus. :03:
Platapus
12-02-14, 06:38 PM
Just can't let go of the Old Math. :D
http://www.thoseposters.com/emailPosters/poster1234.jpg
There are two types of countries in the world
The ones that use the metric system
The ones that have landed men on the moon.
:D
Buddahaid
12-02-14, 06:42 PM
There are two types of countries in the world
The ones that use the metric system
The ones that have landed men on the moon.
:D
When did Burma land men on the moon?
Platapus
12-02-14, 07:10 PM
When did Burma land men on the moon?
It was buried on page 3. I think there were some baseball scores on page 1
When did Burma land men on the moon?
1940 and it wasn't the moon so much as it was landing on Dorothy Lamour.
http://www.thevintageposter.com/Art_Images/medium/7585.JPG
Armistead
12-02-14, 07:25 PM
Guess everyones seen Louis Farrakhan talking about tearing up the Gdam country up over Ferguson and other issues.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/12/farrakhan-threatens-to-tear-this-goddm-country-apart-over-ferguson-shooting-video/
Buddahaid
12-02-14, 07:34 PM
Nope. What an ass.
Platapus
12-02-14, 07:35 PM
1940 and it wasn't the moon so much as it was landing on Dorothy Lamour.
http://www.thevintageposter.com/Art_Images/medium/7585.JPG
Hmmm landing on the moon or landing on Dorothy Lamour?
Survey Says? :D
Isn't that what it's all about? That's how we do it. :sunny:
That's right Steve! If we can get through the Ebola scare the media put us through for weeks on end, we can survive Ferguson. It will be in the news for weeks yet, so all we can do is ride it out.
ikalugin
12-07-14, 10:25 AM
Meanwhile they pass some interesting legislation in the US Congress, I wonder if public has noticed due to it's preocupation with Ferguson events.
Armistead
12-07-14, 10:37 AM
I see Berkley had to get in on the action with some window smashing and looting....
Meanwhile they pass some interesting legislation in the US Congress, I wonder if public has noticed due to it's preocupation with Ferguson events.
What legislation would that be?
Rockstar
12-07-14, 04:23 PM
I think the legislation was establishing some kind of camp where certain people are to be detained.
These camps wouldn't happen to be governed by a certain disaster agency would they? :03:
These camps wouldn't happen to be governed by a certain disaster agency would they? :03:
Must be the Pravda of the moment...
ikalugin
12-08-14, 01:30 AM
What legislation would that be?
I was referring to the legislation regarding Ukrainian situation.
Dread Knot
12-08-14, 07:47 AM
These camps wouldn't happen to be governed by a certain disaster agency would they? :03:
As long as they have marshmallow roasts, campfire sing-a-longs and moonlight canoeing, I'm good. :)
http://www.lepouvoirmondial.com/media/01/00/564548453.jpg
Betonov
12-08-14, 08:32 AM
I was referring to the legislation regarding Ukrainian situation.
Lets force Slovenia to loose another billion to sanctions ??
Lets force Slovenia to loose another billion to sanctions ??
If he's referring to House Resolution 758 then it's more "let's send weapons to Ukraine". :hmmm:
Betonov
12-08-14, 09:25 AM
If he's referring to House Resolution 758 then it's more "let's send weapons to Ukraine". :hmmm:
My country really needs a weapons factory, we'd close the deficit in a matter of years :nope:
My country really needs a weapons factory, we'd close the deficit in a matter of years :nope:
I could just see it, "Balkan Bangers - Perfect for Kebab removal!" ;)
ikalugin
12-10-14, 04:54 AM
Everyone knows that the best way to remove Kebab is to use Burrito. This kind of Burrito:
http://www.arms-expo.ru/upload/iblock/f59/f59e1cc50036a96de1ab80ae6104fa2d.JPG
The 2nd best way to remove Kebab is to call in the Serbia Kebab removal service.
Betonov
12-10-14, 05:16 AM
Gorenje, the company that produces washing machines and ovens, almost went into weapons production. A submachine gun was developed that saw action in 1991. It was so weak, the Yugoslav officer that got hit in the war just pulled the bullet out. Managed to penetrate the skin and nothing more :oops:
Rockstar
12-16-14, 09:34 PM
Almost all of the court documents concerning the Ferguson shooting case have been released.
http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html
em2nought
12-16-14, 11:47 PM
Gorenje, the company that produces washing machines and ovens, almost went into weapons production. A submachine gun was developed that saw action in 1991. It was so weak, the Yugoslav officer that got hit in the war just pulled the bullet out. Managed to penetrate the skin and nothing more :oops:
Just about all you need is a welder, brake, drill press, and shop press to start turning out AK-47s. :D
Von Tonner
03-06-15, 04:58 AM
The Department of Justice has released a very detailed and interesting report on just what did go down between Wilson and Brown.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=1003879&sn=Marketingweb+detail&pid=90389&utm_source=Politicsweb+Daily+Headlines&utm_campaign=65a8fb937b-DHN_March_6_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a86f25db99-65a8fb937b-130044809
And the report by the same department on the closure of the Trayvon Martin investigation concluding that no civil charges are to be brought against Zimmerman.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=1004691&sn=Marketingweb+detail&pid=90389&utm_source=Politicsweb+Daily+Headlines&utm_campaign=65a8fb937b-DHN_March_6_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a86f25db99-65a8fb937b-130044809
Meanwhile, the same Department releases a report into policing in Ferguson:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/
Sorry I have to say it
It disgust me when a cop behave in a rotten way.
Markus
Jimbuna
03-10-15, 01:56 PM
Meanwhile, the same Department releases a report into policing in Ferguson:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/
Doesn't make pleasant reading for law enforcement in the area.
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