Ferguson [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Dread Knot

08-12-14, 08:58 PM

At this point anyway, a lot of the facts remain in dispute. According to what information has been released by the police department involved, the victim started the confrontation by shoving the police officer back into his car, and then a struggle for the officer's gun ensued. The victim was likely shot once during this altercation. Then, the victim exited the car and was subsequently shot outside of same.

Witnesses (or people purporting to be witnesses) have claimed that the individual was some distance from the officer and had raised his hands when he was shot. He was unarmed.

The police department (Ferguson MO) has not released further statements. The FBI has stepped in and is actively soliciting cell-phone camera or other video footage from possible witnesses.

The young man's body lay in the street for some hours as the crime scene was processed, further provoking the crowd of onlookers. Another department (St. Louis County) was called in to conduct the investigation. A vigil put together for the night of the shooting turned violent and several businesses were looted, burned, etc.

There have been subsequent incidents in areas outside of the small municipality where the shooting occurred. A shoe store was looted in South St. Louis last night, many miles from the area of the shooting. The department is putting together an extra-patrol detail for the coming week. Also, the FBI is cautioning that a couple of large area shopping malls may be targeted for looting/vandalism.

The parents have appealed to the community with the message that they don't want their son's memory to be tarnished by the spectre of criminal acts and violence. Apparently he was preparing to attend college in the fall, and wanted to eventually go into business for himself.

Oberon

08-13-14, 12:09 AM

What makes me ponder is why the arrest was made in the first place, from what I've heard the two African-American men were walking in the street, rather than the sidewalk. I believe it's referred to as 'jay-walking' there, and yet this escalates into Brown being shot multiple times.
Continuing the parallel with the 2011 riots, Duggan was intercepted by armed police who were under the impression that Duggan was armed, and it went downhill from there really, Duggan was a known gang member and a court controversially would later declare the killing lawful.
Now, it's debatable in the UK whether the riots were caused directly by Duggans death or whether it was a pressure cooker situation and Duggans shooting was a millibar too far for the disaffected youth. Especially when one considers the varied make-up of those who were prosecuted after the riots, some were school teachers, I believe one was the daughter of a millionaire. Not the disaffected black youth that many people were expecting, that of Notting Hill and Brixton fame.

Coming back to the US, I think the stress points are acutely different but there are some similarities to be drawn, that of perhaps leftward leaning young individuals (and rightward leaning individuals so long as a Democrat is in power) who are concerned with the misuse of police force and the eagerness to resort to deadly force, particularly with the whole 'stand your ground' debacle not so long ago. However, equally in defence of the police force, they are much more likely to encounter a deadly situation than the police in the UK, where firearms are fewer and situations involving them are dealt with by specially trained firearms units (I believe SCO19) whereas every US trooper has the potential to encounter a situation that would be dealt with by specialised police forces in the UK (not that regular police forces don't encounter firearms in the UK, but I believe that the SOP is to withdraw to a safe distance and call for armed backup if a firearm is discharged at an unarmed officer, Jim might be able to correct me on this), so it is more likely that they will react with lethal force in what they determine to be self-preservation, even if in retrospect, the act was disproportionate to the situation.

Like you say, there's not much in the way of facts to go around at the moment, but the FBI had better run this one over with a fine-tooth comb because I have a feeling that things are going to come to a head in the US regarding the police and African-Americans in the near future, as well as the usage of firearms by the police. We have a similar problem brewing in the UK, only for us it's not just the relationship between ethnic groups and the police but also the relation between the public and the police. I was listening to a program on radio four earlier that described the British publics historical point of view of the police as being 'agents of the public' not 'agents of the government' and up until the 1980s the police were generally given a blank card by the public and trusted, but after the Thatcher government and the miners strike, with the rise of accountability, and numerous corruption scandals and other crises (the latest 'plebgate' scandal being just one of them) that the British public are steadily taking a more European viewpoint towards the police that shifts them from being agents of protection to agents of oppression, and that would honestly be a sad thing to happen, in my opinion anyway.

HunterICX

08-13-14, 05:09 AM

that the British public are steadily taking a more European viewpoint towards the police that shifts them from being agents of protection to agents of oppression, and that would honestly be a sad thing to happen, in my opinion anyway.

Well I see 2 issues from a personal observation and what I get from the news.

1) Seems that the current generation seems to have less respect for authority figures wether it be police or the teacher in front of the class, they think they own the world and may do anything they please without fearing any form of consequences as they think they have the right to do so.

2) From the other side when it comes to the police it seems most of their busy work is nowadays is writing out fines to fill up the state's treasure chest. I know if you do nothing wrong you shouldn't worry but sometimes it happens unintentional and something really that doesn't compromise any safety of the public order but you're beeing treated like a criminal making a mountain out of a mole hil while all that is needed is a couple of words a nod and of you go. So I understand why a time this frustrates the public giving them a sense that they longer serve to protect the public but rather are being used to squeeze more money out of it.

my 2 cent and my apologies for rambling to much OT to which I have to add is:

It's a tragic incident, but more so as it's being used as an excuse for the mayority to go on a full crime/misbehave spree and wreck the whole area like the 2011 London riots and iirc the burning of Paris in 2005 when a group of 3 youngers of North-African origin who where chased by the police after a reported break in one of them fried himself in a high voltage electricity box in a power substation which seemed enough reason for the youth to burn cars for the next week or two.

I'm glad at least to hear the parents ask the mayority to quiet down as this is something their child never wanted to happen. We can only hope the investigation gets to the bottom of this.

Jimbuna

08-13-14, 06:29 AM

^ Can't argue with that.

Dread Knot

08-13-14, 07:46 AM

This strikes me as a case where one of those personal video recorders some police officers have on their person or in their squad car might have come in handy. They almost seem mandatory nowadays.

Sadly, there was another critical shooting by police in the same area a few hours ago:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...inue/13989945/

This black family's attempts to assist in the post riot clean up struck me as particularly classy.
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/volunteers_clean_up_at_ferguson_quicktrip_get_yell ed_at_for_helping_the_white_man.php

Oberon

08-13-14, 12:56 PM

Well I see 2 issues from a personal observation and what I get from the news.

1) Seems that the current generation seems to have less respect for authority figures wether it be police or the teacher in front of the class, they think they own the world and may do anything they please without fearing any form of consequences as they think they have the right to do so.

2) From the other side when it comes to the police it seems most of their busy work is nowadays is writing out fines to fill up the state's treasure chest. I know if you do nothing wrong you shouldn't worry but sometimes it happens unintentional and something really that doesn't compromise any safety of the public order but you're beeing treated like a criminal making a mountain out of a mole hil while all that is needed is a couple of words a nod and of you go. So I understand why a time this frustrates the public giving them a sense that they longer serve to protect the public but rather are being used to squeeze more money out of it.

my 2 cent and my apologies for rambling to much OT to which I have to add is:

It's a tragic incident, but more so as it's being used as an excuse for the mayority to go on a full crime/misbehave spree and wreck the whole area like the 2011 London riots and iirc the burning of Paris in 2005 when a group of 3 youngers of North-African origin who where chased by the police after a reported break in one of them fried himself in a high voltage electricity box in a power substation which seemed enough reason for the youth to burn cars for the next week or two.

I'm glad at least to hear the parents ask the mayority to quiet down as this is something their child never wanted to happen. We can only hope the investigation gets to the bottom of this.

^ Can't argue with that.

I also agree, but I have to ponder what has caused this move away from a respect for authority figures, is it a change in media that has encouraged us to challenge authority? Perhaps the increase (and I mean this in no anti-American way, bear with me) in media from the US which is broadcast across Europe and the import of the American culture? Now, before people get up in arms, one has to remember that the US was based around the challenging of authority and the belief that no one entity should have absolute control over the people, hence their inbuilt distrust of the government and, indeed, the police force. So, as we receive and digest that message in American media (I mean, how many times in US police dramas does the protagonist come up against a corrupt official high up in the bureaucracy that hinders their progress?) it has translated into our adaptation of that mistrust of authoritarian figures, which has in return lead to our media taking a more aggressive tone towards the police force, which the government has been happy to accept as it gives it free reign to impose its own agenda on the police forces which had previously been relatively free from government intervention (up until around the 1980s and the miners strike, really).
Equally though, there have been a number of embarrassing incidents for the police, which the media has seized on in its quest to find the worse news to broadcast for the British public (which brings me onto another point, when did it become fashionable for media outlets to focus purely on bad news stories?), for example, much has been made of plebgate, and the current scandal in Manchester, however a nice good news story happened in London the other day when the commissioner of the police interrupted an interview with BBC Radio London to chase down and arrest a couple of thieves. Now, while the front pages of several newspapers are happy to go with the Manchester scandal, I wonder how deeply buried inside the papers is the news story of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe? :nope: Thus the problems are blown out of proportion and the merits are buried deep. This is not just a problem with the police, but also with the NHS (I mean, how often do newspapers print stories of people being saved by the NHS vs those being failed by it?) and Fire brigade...and just about every aspect of life in Britain, we have an unhealthy obsession with bad news and it is effecting our attitude towards those around us.

Getting back to America though, I came across this stat from CNN:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/d3a3f9fea493417b4fdb5a7fd8169deb/tumblr_na6h2jYX0d1qcq4mto1_500.jpg

obviously take it with a pinch of salt but needless to say, true or not, it's existence is only going to further enflame the problem between 'Blacks' and the police in America, I don't see another 1992 happening but certainly there's going to be a stronger movement against what is perceived to be institutionalised racism.

HunterICX

08-13-14, 03:14 PM

I also agree, but I have to ponder what has caused this move away from a respect for authority figures, is it a change in media that has encouraged us to challenge authority?

Well first step would be Parenting.

If I crossed the red line set by my parents I would be put on my place either verbally or a slap on the wrist.

nowadays the Parents treat their kids like the where the messiah and that they can do no wrong.
Example: I've seen at my school in the Netherlands a parent take his kid to the principal office to complain to the school about that his son has been suspended.
If I would be suspended of school...oh boy..grounded, privileges suspended and would have to make a formal apology to the school teacher or principal.

Also a part has to do with society especially when times are hard and both parents have to work hard to get around so that they have little time to spend with their kids. When I grew up my parents made sure one of them would be at home to pick us up, I know that now with the EU crisis it's become a luxury to be raised like that and you'll probably spend more time on your own then around you parents and I wager this is where in most cases it goes wrong as they have no boundaries and have a free pass to do pretty much what they want.

Trouble starts young.
So it's important for a parent to pay good attention to their kids and hopefully show them the right way.

Catfish

08-13-14, 03:22 PM

:nope: [...] obviously take it with a pinch of salt but needless to say, true or not, it's existence is only going to further enflame the problem between 'Blacks' and the police in America, I don't see another 1992 happening but certainly there's going to be a stronger movement against what is perceived to be institutionalised racism.

From this to the media loving to report "bad" things - only bad news are good news.

This becomes especially interesting when you look at a certain Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst, and the wars they caused, and financed.
If i did something so they gave me the Pulitzer prize, i would throw it in their face. :nope:

Apart from that, someone from the US recently told me there has been no racism in the US since the 1950ies. I did not object, but sometimes i wonder about human perception.

Oberon

08-13-14, 09:42 PM

Well first step would be Parenting.

If I crossed the red line set by my parents I would be put on my place either verbally or a slap on the wrist.

nowadays the Parents treat their kids like the where the messiah and that they can do no wrong.
Example: I've seen at my school in the Netherlands a parent take his kid to the principal office to complain to the school about that his son has been suspended.
If I would be suspended of school...oh boy..grounded, privileges suspended and would have to make a formal apology to the school teacher or principal.

Also a part has to do with society especially when times are hard and both parents have to work hard to get around so that they have little time to spend with their kids. When I grew up my parents made sure one of them would be at home to pick us up, I know that now with the EU crisis it's become a luxury to be raised like that and you'll probably spend more time on your own then around you parents and I wager this is where in most cases it goes wrong as they have no boundaries and have a free pass to do pretty much what they want.

Trouble starts young.
So it's important for a parent to pay good attention to their kids and hopefully show them the right way.

I think that's fifty/fifty really, I mean you can raise a kid to be an absolute angel, but as soon as he/she gets outside of your house and control then there's nothing you can do but try to pick up the pieces when they return, it's the old nature vs nurture thing.
It's also a bit of a catch-22 situation, some parents are afraid to discipline their children out of fear of catching the ire of social services, it's even worse if you happen to be fostering a child and they decide to lie and tell social services that you've been abusing them. It's a bit like that South Park episode 'The Wacky Molestation Adventure', and once you've got that black mark on your record it's a hell of a fight to get rid of it. However, equally there is no doubt that there are plenty of parents (both foster and non-foster) out there that DO abuse their children, and as such the system has been increasingly tightened so that the state has become a bit twitchy when it comes to the disciplining of children.
Now, when you couple that on to the general attitude of society now that authority figures are to be questioned, not obeyed, then it's small wonder that things are the way they are. Not that I'm excusing the behaviour of some parents or their children, I fully understand the references you make in that there are definitely some parents out there (usually on the Jeremy Kyle show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jeremy_Kyle_Show)) who struggle to control themselves, let alone their children, and I make no economic background discrimination here, I have seen the children of the rich and the poor and it's got nothing to do with their background as to how the child behaves (in fact, some rich peoples kids are worse than kids from a council estate :nope:) but as always when the media spotlight falls upon the behaviour of children it will fall upon those from poor families on council estates, because there is nothing like a good bit of poverty porn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkrX5J73Vi4) to make you feel better about yourself (I may be poor, but at least I'm not as bad as those losers). After all, as I mentioned earlier, during the 2011 riots one of the many people arrested after the incident was a millionaires daughter who was at university.

:nope:

From this to the media loving to report "bad" things - only bad news are good news.

This becomes especially interesting when you look at a certain Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst, and the wars they caused, and financed.
If i did something so they gave me the Pulitzer prize, i would throw it in their face. :nope:

Apart from that, someone from the US recently told me there has been no racism in the US since the 1950ies. I did not object, but sometimes i wonder about human perception.

Whoops...ok, you got me there. :haha:
Prizes from bloodied hands aren't a new thing after all, the medallion that Obama wears around his neck was created by the guy who gave us TNT after all.
I do think that there is a problem in the US police system, if it's not racism then perhaps it's a slight twitchiness, but equally in a country where every person you meet might have the means to murder you from beyond hand reach distance then I suppose short of patrolling in and using bomb disposal robots to make arrests then you are going to be twitchy because every situation might be your last.
Drawing back from the 2nd Amendment for a moment though (since I have no wish to sail off that well travelled waterfall) there definitely does seem to be something causing a great disconnect between the US people and the police, and that disconnect grows bigger every year, from the Kent State massacre (ok, that was National Guard, not police), through to Rodney King, and now Michael Brown, and the fact that the police are closing ranks is not doing much to defuse the situation.
I'm following social media on this, I find in situations like this it's probably one of the better ways of getting raw information, and there's a strange irony in the alleged report that people from Gaza are tweeting to the people of Ferguson advice on how to cope with tear gas.
There's a livestream going on here: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930

(which goes to show how it's not easy to hide things in the modern interconnected media world, but that's another discussion entirely).
Furthermore, two reporters, one from the Huffington Post and the other from the Washington Post where arrested, detained (roughly) and then released with no knowledge of what they were arrested for.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu9sflUIQAAJVGn.png

I can't help but think that the St. Louis PD is making things worse for themselves. :hmmm:

EDIT: Just found this, twitter users from Gaza tweeting advice to protestors in Ferguson on how to deal with tear gas:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu9_0MDCMAAQ02t.png:large

EDIT EDIT: Reddit are, once again, doing a sterling job of collating information from multiple sources in once place, this really is the era of the open source news station: http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/

HunterICX

08-14-14, 05:31 AM

I think that's fifty/fifty really, I mean you can raise a kid to be an absolute angel, but as soon as he/she gets outside of your house and control then there's nothing you can do but try to pick up the pieces when they return, it's the old nature vs nurture thing.

Ow I totally agree it's something that can't be helped, however an effort is required from the parents when your kid is absorbing the things he encounters like a sponge is to show him what's right, wrong, what's dangerous and help to steer him into the right direction however that does mean that you'll have to let him at time to face the consequences of his actions in a way or form.

It's also a bit of a catch-22 situation, some parents are afraid to discipline their children out of fear of catching the ire of social services, it's even worse if you happen to be fostering a child and they decide to lie and tell social services that you've been abusing them. It's a bit like that South Park episode 'The Wacky Molestation Adventure', and once you've got that black mark on your record it's a hell of a fight to get rid of it. However, equally there is no doubt that there are plenty of parents (both foster and non-foster) out there that DO abuse their children, and as such the system has been increasingly tightened so that the state has become a bit twitchy when it comes to the disciplining of children. Ah yes the minesweeper of parenting,

I'm strongly against child abuse and it sickens me when I read these horror cases where a child later is found in a plastic bag cut in pieces by its own parents where the child protective service really messed up by not acting after warnings from the people in the neighbourhood having 3 visits by representatives that reported signs that the child was in danger but didn't act upon it and well...you get that. :nope:

However I'm not against a slap on the wrist as imho a kick under the butt is a better teacher then being warned that if you continue to misbehave you'll get no desert. Not saying you should be kicked under your butt as soon you start doing something bad but know there's a limit when it comes to verbal warnings to stop your misbehaviour.

As you mentioned kids are smart enough that they know what will happen when they report this to child protective service and will abuse this by telling lies which will be a stain on the parents for a long time.

Like I said it's a minesweeper when it comes to parenting.

Now, when you couple that on to the general attitude of society now that authority figures are to be questioned, not obeyed, then it's small wonder that things are the way they are. Not that I'm excusing the behaviour of some parents or their children, I fully understand the references you make in that there are definitely some parents out there (usually on the Jeremy Kyle show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jeremy_Kyle_Show)) who struggle to control themselves, let alone their children, and I make no economic background discrimination here, I have seen the children of the rich and the poor and it's got nothing to do with their background as to how the child behaves (in fact, some rich peoples kids are worse than kids from a council estate :nope:) but as always when the media spotlight falls upon the behaviour of children it will fall upon those from poor families on council estates, because there is nothing like a good bit of poverty porn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkrX5J73Vi4) to make you feel better about yourself (I may be poor, but at least I'm not as bad as those losers). After all, as I mentioned earlier, during the 2011 riots one of the many people arrested after the incident was a millionaires daughter who was at university.It'll suprise you how much you'll take from your own parents into raising your own kids but you'll probably change some things, my dad always said he'll never be like his father however when it came to raising us he did exactly raise us like his father raised him making sure we're well provided for with our necessities, drawing clear lines about rules and do's and dont's but never unfair. My mom would be the emotional pillar and took great care when one of us fell ill. Funny is that I notice in myself that I have the rational thoughts and desire for a certain amount of order from my father's side but yet I do have the emotional caring and support of my mother's side.
It's funny how those things can colide within thyself :haha: :88)

Aye..the poor do not have the luxury that the rich have and tend to be look at differently through the eyes of society. One ends up in the newspaper the other in some tabloid/glamour magazine (and you can fill in which one ends up in one and the other) it's pethatic how the mayority as you said enjoy a good bit of poverty porn and judge them for what they are when they misbehave instead of what they did. I judge on what you did as a person not caring how much money you own or titles you have.

I may be poorYou poor?
Far from it..:03:

Dread Knot

08-14-14, 09:01 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu2_Sp_IgAA4Avz.jpg

In addition to the reporters arrested, last night, the Ferguson police arrested a St. Louis city alderman. Previously, a state senator was tear gassed.

I'm really at a complete loss at how Ferguson could be handling this any worse than they are. They seem deaf, dumb and blind to how bad they look.

Admiral Halsey

08-14-14, 10:19 AM

Oberon

08-14-14, 01:42 PM

Ow I totally agree it's something that can't be helped, however an effort is required from the parents when your kid is absorbing the things he encounters like a sponge is to show him what's right, wrong, what's dangerous and help to steer him into the right direction however that does mean that you'll have to let him at time to face the consequences of his actions in a way or form.

Indeed, but there's the giant crushing factor of society and in particular peer pressure that you have to factor in. Never underestimate the lengths that a child will go to in order to avoid being cast into the unpopular crowd, and to avoid bullying. Shop-lifting, smoking, drugs...a child may have a perfect up-bringing but once they hit school, that's when the parents start to lose control. Then, just when you think things can't get any worse...puberty hits and all hell breaks loose.

Ah yes the minesweeper of parenting,

I'm strongly against child abuse and it sickens me when I read these horror cases where a child later is found in a plastic bag cut in pieces by its own parents where the child protective service really messed up by not acting after warnings from the people in the neighbourhood having 3 visits by representatives that reported signs that the child was in danger but didn't act upon it and well...you get that. :nope:

However I'm not against a slap on the wrist as imho a kick under the butt is a better teacher then being warned that if you continue to misbehave you'll get no desert. Not saying you should be kicked under your butt as soon you start doing something bad but know there's a limit when it comes to verbal warnings to stop your misbehaviour.

As you mentioned kids are smart enough that they know what will happen when they report this to child protective service and will abuse this by telling lies which will be a stain on the parents for a long time.

Like I said it's a minesweeper when it comes to parenting.

Indeed, one of the biggest minefields out there. I was smacked...twice I think, once by my father because I ran out into the middle of a road, and once by my mother...I can't actually remember the reason why, but I learnt my lesson. Otherwise it was 'the voice' that kept me in control. I think that the fact that my mother had nearly two decades in animal welfare before she gave birth to me probably helped her a great deal in the long run when I was growing up! :haha:

It'll suprise you how much you'll take from your own parents into raising your own kids but you'll probably change some things, my dad always said he'll never be like his father however when it came to raising us he did exactly raise us like his father raised him making sure we're well provided for with our necessities, drawing clear lines about rules and do's and dont's but never unfair. My mom would be the emotional pillar and took great care when one of us fell ill. Funny is that I notice in myself that I have the rational thoughts and desire for a certain amount of order from my father's side but yet I do have the emotional caring and support of my mother's side.
It's funny how those things can colide within thyself :haha: :88)

Oh aye, I've taken a lot from my mother, not so much from my father as I only spent eight years with him before the divorce, but I have picked up this and that from him, definitely my love of trains and buses, that's for certain.
There's no doubt that your parents leave an indelible mark on you, after all, they are the ones that spend the most time with you when you are at your most impressionable age. This is one of the reason I fail to understand those rich people who farm out their children to nannies and creches, and then wonder why the child rejects them at a later age.

Aye..the poor do not have the luxury that the rich have and tend to be look at differently through the eyes of society. One ends up in the newspaper the other in some tabloid/glamour magazine (and you can fill in which one ends up in one and the other) it's pethatic how the mayority as you said enjoy a good bit of poverty porn and judge them for what they are when they misbehave instead of what they did. I judge on what you did as a person not caring how much money you own or titles you have.

:yep:

You poor?
Far from it..:03:

Oh goodness, I wasn't referring to me, I mean I'm not well off but I'm not what I would call poor, not in the grand scheme of things. I meant those people who look at things like 'Benefits street' to give them a sense of superiority over those who are even more poor, a bit like the old Two Ronnies sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c

Betonov

08-14-14, 02:00 PM

Indeed, one of the biggest minefields out there. I was smacked...twice I think, once by my father because I ran out into the middle of a road, and once by my mother...I can't actually remember the reason why,

Probably for crying to her because your father smacked you.

Oberon

08-14-14, 02:08 PM

Oberon

08-14-14, 02:09 PM

Probably for crying to her because your father smacked you.

:haha::har: Possible :haha: Naaah, I think it was the same incident, either which way I learnt not to run out into the middle of the road. :03:

Dread Knot

08-14-14, 02:43 PM

Isn't the St Louis police force the one running it and giving them orders?

It's definitely not just Ferguson PD. The officers who arrested the reporters in McDonald's seem to have been County police, and in the video of the Al Jazeera crew getting teargassed, a vehicle from the St. Charles County Regional SWAT is clearly visible. Seems there is plenty of bad to go around.

From the Twitters:
@GovJayNixon just confirmed that the State Police & Federal Authorities are going to relieve St. Louis County PD of their duties here. A bit late, but a great first step

Onkel Neal

08-14-14, 05:36 PM

I must admit...I am surprised by the relative silence from most people here in GT, now if this had been about gun control I'd wager that this topic would be on four or five pages by now...likewise it seems, from what I can tell, that certain US media outlets are being either quiet about this or taking the side of the police (Fox I'm looking at you).

Well, if one says anything outside the acceptable politically correct line, he gets bashed as a racist.

Funny, I spent the night 18 miles from Ferguson MO, in Pontoon Beach, IL, at the Pilot truck stop. That very night, yes!

I do not know what happened between the police officer and the young man, I wasn't there. I do know one thing, you do not get into a scuffle with law enforcement and come out smelling like a rose. Maybe there was no scuffle, maybe it's a crazy killer cop. I don't know.

I also agree, but I have to ponder what has caused this move away from a respect for authority figures, is it a change in media that has encouraged us to challenge authority? Perhaps the increase (and I mean this in no anti-American way, bear with me) in media from the US which is broadcast across Europe and the import of the American culture? Now, before people get up in arms, one has to remember that the US was based around the challenging of authority and the belief that no one entity should have absolute control over the people, hence their inbuilt distrust of the government and, indeed, the police force. So, as we receive and digest that message in American media (I mean, how many times in US police dramas does the protagonist come up against a corrupt official high up in the bureaucracy that hinders their progress?) it has translated into our adaptation of that mistrust of authoritarian figures, which has in return lead to our media taking a more aggressive tone towards the police force, which the government has been happy to accept as it gives it free reign to impose its own agenda on the police forces which had previously been relatively free from government intervention (up until around the 1980s and the miners strike, really).
Equally though, there have been a number of embarrassing incidents for the police, which the media has seized on in its quest to find the worse news to broadcast for the British public (which brings me onto another point, when did it become fashionable for media outlets to focus purely on bad news stories?), for example, much has been made of plebgate, and the current scandal in Manchester, however a nice good news story happened in London the other day when the commissioner of the police interrupted an interview with BBC Radio London to chase down and arrest a couple of thieves. Now, while the front pages of several newspapers are happy to go with the Manchester scandal, I wonder how deeply buried inside the papers is the news story of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe? :nope: Thus the problems are blown out of proportion and the merits are buried deep. This is not just a problem with the police, but also with the NHS (I mean, how often do newspapers print stories of people being saved by the NHS vs those being failed by it?) and Fire brigade...and just about every aspect of life in Britain, we have an unhealthy obsession with bad news and it is effecting our attitude towards those around us.

Getting back to America though, I came across this stat from CNN:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/d3a3f9fea493417b4fdb5a7fd8169deb/tumblr_na6h2jYX0d1qcq4mto1_500.jpg

obviously take it with a pinch of salt but needless to say, true or not, it's existence is only going to further enflame the problem between 'Blacks' and the police in America, I don't see another 1992 happening but certainly there's going to be a stronger movement against what is perceived to be institutionalised racism.

Don't overlook the small matter of Ferguson is mostly a black community. All the white people got the hell out. So, it figures that the majority of the stops would be black people.

Edit: I wanted to add, there does seem to be a noticeable trend among small town LE to suit up in Rambo gear way out of proportion to the need. I saw a movie with my daughter a couple of weeks ago, and there was an advert for the League City PD, and man, it made them look like the Navy Seals on steroids. Police boats, tanks, dogs, I mean, complete overkill for a small town. I wish I could find this video on Youtube, it would blow your mind....

Onkel Neal

08-14-14, 05:48 PM

Found it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22la1Rw6MdA&list=UURyTPtc3XEWCGGpT7ddmcJg

Man, it make it seem like a war zone, it's a sleepy little town...:haha:

Dread Knot

08-14-14, 05:57 PM

In the movie The Dark Knight Rises, Christopher Nolan attempts to imagine what it might look like if a dangerous terrorist with a warhead confronted the military. That's the top picture.

The bottom picture is actual police response to a peaceful, daylight protest involving 100 persons in Ferguson, MO on Wednesday.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu9F8R-IQAIhPqj.jpg

Kinda makes ya think. :88) Wudda we need fiction for?

Onkel Neal

08-14-14, 06:02 PM

Is this the same "peaceful" protest that turned into a mob riot with full scale looting?

Oberon

08-14-14, 06:09 PM

:haha: Yeah, there's a definite gung-ho attitude there, makes me wonder how long they'd last in the NYPD. :doh: :dead::dead:

Still, the local authorities seem to have managed to pull their collective heads out of their backsides and put someone with a bit of sense in charge and it helps that he's the right colour, so to speak.
Let's hear it for Captain Johnson:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvCInTVIAAEc_Ey.png

"When I see a young lady cry b/c of fear of this uniform then that is a problem” :yep:

Well said, sir. He's also ordered police to remove their gas masks, and is setting up media staging areas. Sounds like a man who a) knows how to de-escalate the situation and b) knows how to handle the media. Hopefully this thing will wind down now.

I think that this is another lesson to the US PD that using overwhelming force against a reasonably small protest in an attempt to crush it does not work, not back in the old days and especially not now when everyone has a camera on their mobile phone.

Now I don't know if Brown instigated a skirmish with the police, or whether it was an overzealous copper, either is entirely possible. However the reaction of the local PD to the incident and to the protests of the public has only served to keep this unrest going as long as it has. I mean, this protest is only a small fraction of the size of the 2011 London riots, and we didn't even use tear gas during them...heck, we didn't even use Baton rounds...we just sort of saturated the area with police and waited for the rain. :haha: So I think really in the grand scheme of things the response was somewhat disproportion to the level of violence in Ferguson.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens tonight after the vigil, needless to say Alex Jones is loving it: http://www.ustream.tv/RealAlexJones :haha:

Oberon

08-14-14, 06:11 PM

Is this the same "peaceful" protest that turned into a mob riot with full scale looting?

I didn't see or hear of any of that during last nights protests, a couple of molotovs thrown but that's it. I think the only thing that's been looted is the local QuikTrip, and that was on Sunday.

Onkel Neal

08-14-14, 06:13 PM

I didn't see or hear of any of that during last nights protests, a couple of molotovs thrown but that's it. I think the only thing that's been looted is the local QuikTrip, and that was on Sunday.

:haha:

Oberon

08-14-14, 06:20 PM

:haha:

Hey, if a couple of molotovs are considered a full scale mob riot in America then you've had a very lucky life. :har: :03:

CCIP

08-14-14, 07:24 PM

Hey, if a couple of molotovs are considered a full scale mob riot in America then you've had a very lucky life. :har: :03:

Bingo :D

And likewise, I think it's an incredibly naive view that the actions of some/few invalidate the wider concerns and causes involved. And if it does, why such vocal American support for a particular side in the conflict in the Ukraine? More than a couple of molotovs thrown there. Interesting how that works.

August

08-14-14, 07:43 PM

I thought this article makes some great points:

Part of the reason we're seeing so many black men killed is that police officers are now best understood less as members of communities, dedicated to keeping peace within them, than as domestic soldiers. The drug war has long functioned as a full-employment act for arms dealers looking to sell every town and village in the country on the need for military-grade hardware, and 9/11 made things vastly worse, with local police departments throughout America grabbing for cash to better defend against any and all terrorist threats. War had reached our shores, we were told, and police officers needed weaponry to fight it.
Officers have tanks now. They have drones. They have automatic rifles, and planes, and helicopters, and they go through military-style boot camp training. It's a constant complaint from what remains of this country's civil liberties caucus. Just this last June, the ACLU issued a report on how police departments now possess arsenals in need of a use. Few paid attention, as usually happens.
The worst part of outfitting our police officers as soldiers has been psychological. Give a man access to drones, tanks, and body armor, and he'll reasonably think that his job isn't simply to maintain peace, but to eradicate danger. Instead of protecting and serving, police are searching and destroying.
If officers are soldiers, it follows that the neighborhoods they patrol are battlefields. And if they're working battlefields, it follows that the population is the enemy. And because of correlations, rooted in historical injustice, between crime and income and income and race, the enemy population will consist largely of people of color, and especially of black men. Throughout the country, police officers are capturing, imprisoning, and killing black males at a ridiculous clip, waging a very literal war on people like Michael Brown.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/america-is-not-for-black-people-1620169913/+leahfinnegan

If it walks, talks and acts like a duck,.... it may very well come to believe it is a duck. That's what is happening with our police. We equip them as soldiers and they are going to start acting like soldiers.

Oberon

08-14-14, 08:03 PM

https://medium.com/the-nib/officer-friendly-28e8d9399bbb

Good article August, and I agree with you. I am in support of the police as an entity, my grandfather was a policeman, and yes, he was moderately racist too, but that was in the 1950s, and we're supposed to have moved on, the police are a force for the public, not for the state, and institutional racism and disproportionate force has no place in a modern police force, in any country.

eddie

08-14-14, 09:29 PM

August

08-14-14, 09:40 PM

Buddahaid

08-14-14, 09:43 PM

Good point August. I'm at least happy the focus has now moved to somewhere other than Santa Rosa.

I always fail to find sympathy when civil unrest is lowered to an excuse for looting, but it always happens and ruins any chance of meaningful dialogue. Humans, in general, are really good at being self serving opportunists, and who can really blame them? This amorality spans all classes unfortunately.

Cheers,

Disgusted with Man

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-14-14, 11:04 PM

Ferguson police have only three black officers out of 53, in a town that is almost 70% black. They are not part of the community. I doubt many of them even live there.

I believe that it is vital that a communities police (and firemen and paramedics too) be an actual part of the communities that they serve. Really a part, not from another town or even a different part of town but lives down the street around the corner, goes to the same churches, has kids in the same schools kind of part.:agree:

@eddie The probable reason why there weren't riots in Chicago or elsewhere after people have been gunned down is that people are becoming desensitized by hearing the same story in the news every day, at first it's like "OMG SOMEONE GOT SHOT!!!!", now it's more like "Oh someone got shot, whatever.", it's gotten down to the point where more people don't care just so long as it doesn't happen to them or someone they really care about.

Granted it is getting really ridiculous when it gets to the point when people start to fear the cops more then anything else, I told my folks once after seeing a cop at a local store, "You know I'm more worried about being shot by a cop then a burglar these days.". I mean seriously what happens when members of a community really do start to fear those who are supposed to protect and serve? I also think that police officers are starting to get desensitized just by the nature of their military style training, yes in some cases split second timing is needed but the use of deadly force isn't always necessary even though cops are supposed to be trained that deadly force is always the last resort it's becoming the first resort more and more. Simply put cops should be cops not SEALS with roid rage.

TarJak

08-15-14, 01:52 AM

A lot depends on the cops approach to policing regardless of where they come from. http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/ferguson-changed-atmosphere-after-policing-shift/5673588

Armistead

08-15-14, 03:46 AM

Well, have no clue what happened if there's no video/audio.

Cops have gotten out of control, even in our small town you would think they're the dang Delta Force with all their garb.

Sure lawyers are getting excited.

Wolferz

08-15-14, 05:05 AM

I got pulled over yesterday.:haha:

Onkel Neal

08-15-14, 06:52 AM

Rockstar

08-15-14, 07:25 AM

Wolferz

08-15-14, 11:28 AM

Yes the police force should mirror the community. But then no police force in the country does yet they don't seem to have the problems Ferguson has. Ferguson if you ask me is a small little hell hole with 22 percent of its 21,000 population on the dole, Im surprised they can find anyone black or white to go look for a job let alone work there.

Do you have first hand knowledge that all of those residents are on Welfare and why should it concern you if they are?
If we didn't have those social safety nets, you'd see a much, much higher rate of crime everywhere.
Still, we see more crime than there should be because the Police seem to be fighting a war against the general population and acting as cash collectors for the governments they work for.
My local bank branch has been robbed twice in the last two months and the corner quickie mart has been robbed several times and I live in what's considered a rural area.
Likely the work of desperate folk who are way down on their luck.

Dread Knot

08-15-14, 11:54 AM

I'm glad the night passed peacefully in Ferguson, but it looks like as of this morning the young man gunned down by the police is no longer a martyr. Anyone who has had the misfortune to be on the business end of a Michael Brown is changing the channel.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvFZ9xgIIAAgCZW.jpg

Wolferz

08-15-14, 12:38 PM

So, the guy they shot and killed was a large black bully?
Karma can be a bitch sometimes.:hmmm:

Armistead

08-15-14, 12:51 PM

Do you have first hand knowledge that all of those residents are on Welfare and why should it concern you if they are?
If we didn't have those social safety nets, you'd see a much, much higher rate of crime everywhere.
Still, we see more crime than there should be because the Police seem to be fighting a war against the general population and acting as cash collectors for the governments they work for.
My local bank branch has been robbed twice in the last two months and the corner quickie mart has been robbed several times and I live in what's considered a rural area.
Likely the work of desperate folk who are way down on their luck.

Maybe, it certainly wasn't this way in history, meaning poverty and crime, wholesale communities....course I guess having 40 acres and a mule helped.

I think these communities are seen as war zones, every person a possible enemy and dealt with quickly.

Oberon

08-15-14, 01:10 PM

I'm sorry this young man lost his life, whatever the reason was. This guy lost his life after an altercation with a cop. But more kids lose their lives at the hands of other kids, you find yourself starting to get numb to it, sadly.

But when there are over 200 murders in Chicago so far this year, we hear about it all the time. Throw in the murders from other large cities with illegal guns every where (and no I'm not against guns) its starts to be very repetitive in the news. Sad that we have become that way, unless a cop shoots someone. Where are the protests in Chicago? Aren't those kids lives as valuable as this kids who was killed in Ferguson? So if kids kill kids, its just the way it is, but if a cop shoots a kid, we protest. Makes sense to me.

And no, I'm not taking the cops side in this shooting, have no clear idea as to what happened.

The difference between the two is that the cops aren't kids, or at least they shouldn't be, they should be disciplined and use force as a last resort.

I'm glad the night passed peacefully in Ferguson, but it looks like as of this morning the young man gunned down by the police is no longer a martyr. Anyone who has had the misfortune to be on the business end of a Michael Brown is changing the channel.

Shrewd move Ferguson PD...shrewd move...

So, the guy they shot and killed was a large black bully?
Karma can be a bitch sometimes.:hmmm:

No, he looked like one, after all it's not been confirmed that that was Brown in that CCTV footage.

Maybe, it certainly wasn't this way in history, meaning poverty and crime, wholesale communities....course I guess having 40 acres and a mule helped.

I think these communities are seen as war zones, every person a possible enemy and dealt with quickly.

Before the police everywhere was like Chicago, if you had a grievance with someone that was deep enough then you found a way to kill them. If you were rich then you could get away with it easily enough, if you were poor then you'd probably be caught and executed as an example to keep law and order.

So...not much has changed really... :hmmm:

Anyway, I have to smile at the timeline of events, they release the officers name (which they shouldn't have done IMHO until the public investigation had finished) and then flash up some CCTV stills showing a black guy who is wearing the same clothes as Brown stealing from a store. It's a definite case of "Well, here's the guy that shot the kid...but look! That kid was a thief...probably..." As Dread Knot has said, half the people will be turning over the TV channel now with the thoughts "oh, just another black thief scumbag then" and with no care as to how the man was shot or to the police overreaction to events on Wednesday night, or to the questions raised by this, such as 'Why are the police driving around in ex-military APCs?'

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152281839187297

Dread Knot

08-15-14, 01:35 PM

No, he looked like one, after all it's not been confirmed that that was Brown in that CCTV footage.

Actually, the friend who was with Brown when he was shot has confirmed being with him in the convenience store robbery.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=31149875&nid

Onkel Neal

08-15-14, 01:45 PM

Do you have first hand knowledge that all of those residents are on Welfare and why should it concern you if they are?

Because its his tax money?

Sure, social nets are a good thing, are you saying there isn't an entire culture of welfare abuse? Black, white, brown, it crosses racial lines, and it is there. Because I've seen a lot of it first hand.

And if poverty is a blameless cause for crime, I should be a kingpin. I live in a truck eating Chef Boy R D :) But I'm not on welfare.

Oberon

08-15-14, 01:59 PM

Actually, the friend who was with Brown when he was shot has confirmed being with him in the convenience store robbery.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=31149875&nid

Hmmm, 'strong-arm' robbery? Were firearms involved? Admittedly it shows Brown capable of having aggressive actions which leads credibility to the reports that there was a physical scuffle before Brown was shot.

However, there's still open questions here that are set aside from the death of Brown, questions that I hope won't be swept under the carpet in the light of this new information.

Because its his tax money?

Sure, social nets are a good thing, are you saying there isn't an entire culture of welfare abuse? Black, white, brown, it crosses racial lines, and it is there. Because I've seen a lot of it first hand.

And if poverty is a blameless cause for crime, I should be a kingpin. I live in a truck eating Chef Boy R D :) But I'm not on welfare.

That's the risk you run by having a welfare system, short of exterminating the poor (which I am quite sure some governments would just love to do) you really can't avoid that. You can make life hard for those on welfare, but eventually they will bite back and you will also wind up persecuting thousands of innocent claimants, but if you make it too easy for them then they will stay on it and you'll wind up with more claimants than workers.
However, even if the entirity of Ferguson are on welfare checks and rob QuikTrips on a daily basis, does that really give the police a blank card to use rubber bullets, tear gas, and sonic dispersal methods against people legitimately protesting? I'm sure there was something in the First Amendment about the right to freedom of assembly, wasn't there? :hmmm:

Onkel Neal

08-15-14, 02:18 PM

Oberon

08-15-14, 03:52 PM

Well, how about if we have jobs for them...say, the jobs we have 10 million illegal aliens doing? No, wait. Those are not jobs Americans will do. Nevermind.

Seriously, no one is talking about exterminating anyone, that's a pretty poor argument. This country has a lot of opportunity, free basic education, laws against discrimination. I think the onus is on the individual to take care of himself, unless he is sick or crippled. Short time welfare, sure. Long term, that's counterproductive to society. As we can see in today's America. "Give us welfare, housing, health care, and food stamps or we'll rob you and kill you". Basically, what you are saying is "let's buy off the criminal element in our society".

Oh, goodness, I know, I wasn't suggesting that anyone was talking about exterminating them, that was an off the cuff remark really :03:. Long term welfare is quite detrimental I guess, when you look at it, but it's finding a way of balancing it without screwing up the lives of those who have been on long term welfare but who aren't thieves or murderers. How does welfare for people registered as disabled work in the US? Because in the UK there's been problems with people who are disabled being classed as not disabled enough and being told they have to work or lose their benefits, and that has lead to more than a few suicides as people who can't work are told they have to or they'll have no money to exist with. Thankfully ATOS (the privatised French-based company that was responsible for assessing people) have had the contract taken away from them, but it's still a mess and there are still a lot of people who are going through the system and the system is failing them.
Obviously is a person is fully fit and healthy and still refuses to find employment then there is a problem and I won't deny that there are people who have that problem, I've seen a high number of them come through my workplace, usually lasting no more than a week (if that), but as...I believe it's Sailor Steve's signature rightfully says "A right should not be with-held from the people because of the abuse of that right by a minority" (or something along those lines) and protection from poverty, that safety net, should be a right that the government should provide its citizens. 'Freedom from want' I believe Roosevelt put it. :yep:

Platapus

08-15-14, 04:09 PM

Onkel Neal

08-15-14, 04:44 PM

Oh, goodness, I know, I wasn't suggesting that anyone was talking about exterminating them, that was an off the cuff remark really :03:. Long term welfare is quite detrimental I guess, when you look at it, but it's finding a way of balancing it without screwing up the lives of those who have been on long term welfare but who aren't thieves or murderers. How does welfare for people registered as disabled work in the US? Because in the UK there's been problems with people who are disabled being classed as not disabled enough and being told they have to work or lose their benefits, and that has lead to more than a few suicides as people who can't work are told they have to or they'll have no money to exist with. Thankfully ATOS (the privatised French-based company that was responsible for assessing people) have had the contract taken away from them, but it's still a mess and there are still a lot of people who are going through the system and the system is failing them.
Obviously is a person is fully fit and healthy and still refuses to find employment then there is a problem and I won't deny that there are people who have that problem, I've seen a high number of them come through my workplace, usually lasting no more than a week (if that), but as...I believe it's Sailor Steve's signature rightfully says "A right should not be with-held from the people because of the abuse of that right by a minority" (or something along those lines) and protection from poverty, that safety net, should be a right that the government should provide its citizens. 'Freedom from want' I believe Roosevelt put it. :yep:

So maybe you and I agree in general but differ in specifics.

What is your workplace? These folks coming in, they are disabled or "underprivileged"/poverty?

You know, there is that elephant in the room: drugs. The selling and use, the cost, how drugs effectively take people out of the workforce and cause crime. I think its a shame that the people affected by drugs, probably a sizable portion of the unemployed in Ferguson, (see Act Four. Invisible Man. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/157/transcript ) can't expect help from law enforcement. Wait, maybe that's what this 20% unemployment is about? :hmmm:

I know a few people who are on Social Security disability. That's not counting the customers I took credit apps for at the motorcycle shop who were trying to buy a $5000 motorcycle using their SS disability as their sole income ("I have other money but its all off the books".... I heard that a few times!). One woman has a visual impairment, she can see but not well enough to drive, she gets a check for that. Who would argue that she doesn't need help? Not me. But I am 99% certain that if she did not get something from the govt., she would not start robbing and assaulting convenience store clerks. I guess my main point is, people who need our help should get it, people who do not need it should not get it, and those who are providing that help should have all the say in how it is distributed.

Even then, some times you cannot help no matter how sweet the deal (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/297/this-is-not-my-beautiful-house?act=0)

You can tell I listen to this program a lot :) Here's an interesting social experiment to help poor city folks (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/156/what-remains?act=3)... listen and comment, I am interested in what you think.

It says something that one of the most profound social experiments in Chicago is happening inside a supermarket. And while the executives of Dominick's Finer Foods wouldn't call it an experiment, there's really no other way to see it. For years, leaders from Jesse Jackson to Ronald Reagan have argued that if businesses would just locate in poorer areas, entire communities could change. This is a story of a corporation that tried to follow that model.

Of the 6,000 people who live in the projects, 93% are unemployed. And when Dominick's cut their deal with the city, they agreed to hire 2/3 of their workforce from the neighborhood.

Dwayne Howard is the head of human resources at Dominick's. An African American man in his 40s, he first started coming to Cabrini-Green a decade ago. For years, he was here every week as part of the Cabrini-Green tutoring program and thought he knew a little bit about the neighborhood. But even he was surprised at how unprepared some people were for regular work. 35-year-old men were applying who'd never held any jobs ever.

Also, I cannot say I will ever accept a few molotovs as a legitimate exercise of the First Amendment. :cool:

Wolferz

08-15-14, 07:23 PM

I sometimes wonder if the solution is to get rid of welfare and like programs and go back to state/county homes where the homeless/indigent can receive food, a safe place to live, and supervised treatment/rehabilitation/training in a controlled and restricted environment.

Perhaps the social experiment of giving poor people money and hopping they will become productive members of society doesn't work.

Running county/state homes/farms may be less expensive in the long run too. These county/state homes/farms should be nice clean and safe places to live. But I think that chances of encouraging people to get off social support may be better if they are required to live in controlled environments.

If we want to help the poor survive, then give them food and shelter. Giving them money and hoping they use it for food and shelter may not be the practical solution.

I dunno. Maybe my "solution" ain't such a good one. :06: But I do think the current solution ain't so hot either. :yep:

They have those now. They're called county jails.:shucks:
At any rate, you're suggesting that the poor don't deserve the same freedoms as the tax paying public? That they should be locked away under the supervision of guards and wardens? To be told how to live. How to work. How to eat. You're right. Not a good solution at all.
Suffice it to say that the governments aren't receptive to spending money to train or hire poor people for work. That would cut into the gravy jobs for their relatives and they won't allow their nepotism to be threatened by anyone. It's easier for them to pay the poor to stay at home.

As for the tax money, that gets stolen by the biggest welfare queens to ever tread the good earth. They're called politicians.:-? Mostly successful lawyers who get tired of working to bilk their pay out of clients and retire to the house and the senate to lounge around in their leather chairs a few hours a day dreaming up new ways to screw us all in perpetuation of their species and then spend their afternoons at the club or on the golf course. Laughing at all of us voters who think they have the power of choice.

Ubirats love government cheese. It tastes like freedom.:haha:

Oberon

08-15-14, 08:19 PM

So maybe you and I agree in general but differ in specifics.

What is your workplace? These folks coming in, they are disabled or "underprivileged"/poverty?

I think we do agree to be honest, Neal, I don't see anything that unreasonable in what you've said, I just tend to have some sympathy for those on unemployment benefit or disability benefit who are legitimately so, having known a few who have been through the rather humiliating process of having to prove that they are disabled, which is mentally degrading at the best of times, but equally that tends to depend on who you see when you have your medical examination (note, I'm not suggesting for a second that you're unsympathetic towards the aforementioned people, I'm just explaining where I'm coming from when I take the...softly-softly approach to welfare...that and there's also the factor that I'm a complete softie who tends to fall for most sob stories... :03: :haha:)

It's at a hotel, I don't recall us ever hiring any physically disabled people, but we've had some...special cases. In regards to underprivileged, none that I can think of, however I live on the Suffolk coast, it really doesn't get very underprivileged out here, especially in comparison to the inner cities.
There's a few trouble spots around, but in comparison to places like London and Birmingham, it's a picnic.

You know, there is that elephant in the room: drugs. The selling and use, the cost, how drugs effectively take people out of the workforce and cause crime. I think its a shame that the people affected by drugs, probably a sizable portion of the unemployed in Ferguson, (see Act Four. Invisible Man. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/157/transcript ) can't expect help from law enforcement. Wait, maybe that's what this 20% unemployment is about? :hmmm:That's not just an elephant, that's a floating pink elephant...no, wait, I digress. It is a big problem, and not many of the solutions that we've thrown at it have worked, I'm interested to see how...was it Colorado who legalised weed? How they get on with overall drug crime, whether it decreases or increases as a result.

I know a few people who are on Social Security disability. That's not counting the customers I took credit apps for at the motorcycle shop who were trying to buy a $5000 motorcycle using their SS disability as their sole income ("I have other money but its all off the books".... I heard that a few times!). One woman has a visual impairment, she can see but not well enough to drive, she gets a check for that. Who would argue that she doesn't need help? Not me. But I am 99% certain that if she did not get something from the govt., she would not start robbing and assaulting convenience store clerks. I guess my main point is, people who need our help should get it, people who do not need it should not get it, and those who are providing that help should have all the say in how it is distributed.

Not going to argue there, however that's an awful lot of power to put in one organisation, it is in some cases a literal life or death scenario, and unfortunately the human factor means that no matter who you put in charge of sorting the real claimants from the fakers, some of either sort are going to slip through the net, but there certainly are ways you can improve matters...for example not shipping the decision making process to a privatised company who is completely inept, that helps. :haha:

Even then, some times you cannot help no matter how sweet the deal (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/297/this-is-not-my-beautiful-house?act=0)

You can tell I listen to this program a lot :) Here's an interesting social experiment to help poor city folks (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/156/what-remains?act=3)... listen and comment, I am interested in what you think.

I shall load it up tomorrow while I'm tooling around in Minecraft and have a listen. From the quote you've highlighted though I can agree that there are quite a few people out there who are completely unequipped for work. I must admit some days I fear that I am one of them, however I do have a job, it's not a full-time one, but it is one nonetheless, and I consider myself better off than many. :yep:

Also, I cannot say I will ever accept a few molotovs as a legitimate exercise of the First Amendment. :cool:Understandable, however if I recall my Wednesday night time-line correctly the molotovs happened after the police cracked out the tear-gas, sonic weapons and rubber bullets. I believe what actually triggered the police was an empty plastic bottle bouncing off one of the cars, the bullhorn then said something along the lines of "This is no longer a peaceful protest, there is a threat to public safety" and less than fifty seconds later the first tear gas canisters came bouncing down the road.

Armistead

08-15-14, 10:23 PM

Al and Jesse getting things under control

Oberon

08-16-14, 05:41 AM

Huh, well that was unexpected. When I went to bed last night it was fairly quiet, but then it seems it all kicked off. :nope:
Well, they've ruined their chances of peaceful dialogue it seems, which is a shame, but then after the news released yesterday about Brown, I guess it's possible that they thought that there would be no chance of a dialogue anyway. Still, on the up side, it's got people talking about the wisdom of arming the police better than the National Guard. :yep: So if any good is going to come out of this sorry mess, I guess that's it.
Still, the police seem to have reacted a bit better, they backed up and reorganised themselves before attempting to regain order, I expect tonight will see a heavier, more armed police presence if this is the way things are going to roll. :hmmm: Kudos to the community leaders and members of the crowd attempting to control the looting and rioting though, goes to show that they're not all bad eggs.

EDIT:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvI7DYSIAAAyBz_.jpg

Take a look at this pic, at first glance it looks like they're looting the store, but actually, they're protecting it. The Beauty Supply store was broken into by rioters, but they were chased off and these men arrived to protect it from other opportunists.

Armistead

08-16-14, 08:45 AM

If there's more looting, there should be a curfew, anyone found on the streets after that arrested. As always, not much concern for those that do business, but they should be protected.

Platapus

08-16-14, 09:52 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvI7DYSIAAAyBz_.jpg

Take a look at this pic, at first glance it looks like they're looting the store,

I am not getting why "at first glance it looks like they're looting the store"

What did you mean by that?

Wolferz

08-16-14, 09:59 AM

Armistead

08-16-14, 10:17 AM

All good opinions for the most part, but I think the police should be trained out of this shoot to kill attitude they've adopted. They're supposed to be marksmen and wounding a suspect can be just as effective IMHO. Unless the perp is armed and shooting back at them, then they can use deadly force with impunity. Better to record it too.

oh please Wolferz....most police aren't trained marksmen, nor or they trained to shoot to wound, they shoot to kill. The police see these cities of gangs as warzones and I'm sure for the most part it's a one size fits all approach.

I doubt we'll ever know the truth. I don't trust the so called witnesses claims, I would expect them to say that. The only hope of the truth is through legal inquiry, courts, cross examination, etc.. That's the process we should be waiting for, not all the race baiting, looting, etc.

It's not about truth anymore, it's about lawsuits, money, lawyers, media, race baiters like Al and Jesse fanning the flames. The looting is just a big opportunity for people to use this to get some free stuff.

I do agree the police are getting out of control, ignoring the constitution and becoming to militaristic in their approach.

Oberon

08-16-14, 04:56 PM

If there's more looting, there should be a curfew, anyone found on the streets after that arrested. As always, not much concern for those that do business, but they should be protected.

Updates from the Ferguson situation, in a public meeting with MHP CPT Johnson and Gov Nixon:

The governor has declared a state of emergency for Ferguson.
There is a 0000-0500 curfew in effect, so midnight-5am is now a no-go for protests or being out on the street in general.
Police are establishing a media staging area to get press credentials and allow them in/out access of the emergency zone.

The decision not to protect businesses last night was explained in the following fashion: If police had lined up in front of businesses, it would have attracted protestors all long them, probably provoked more confrontation, and led to more conflict, at which some point the police would have either had to fight it out or leave, at which point they would have again been unprotected.
The public in attendance seemed grumbly but accepting. There will almost certainly be another media-only press briefing later today, with more information to follow.

I am not getting why "at first glance it looks like they're looting the store"

What did you mean by that?

Well, to the untrained eye, a group of tough looking black men standing around a store with its windows broken in would probably not jump to the first conclusion that they are protecting the store from looters.

Armistead

08-16-14, 06:03 PM

will get interesting....curfew, but the crowds are getting larger. also some businesses are arming themselves.

get ready to watch the flames..

Oberon

08-16-14, 06:14 PM

You can tell I listen to this program a lot :) Here's an interesting social experiment to help poor city folks (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/156/what-remains?act=3)... listen and comment, I am interested in what you think.
I've started listening to these in reverse because...well, I'm contrary like that. :haha:

That particular episode brings up a good point which is something I have witnessed happening here but in a different manner. They mention about the poor being pushed out of more upscale areas and into clustered dedicated 'poor zones' (my phrasing, not theirs) and this is happening in the UK too through the steady and unrestricted rise in house prices.
It is very difficult for an unskilled worker to get a house in London any more, I'd say in fact that from an area stretching out from about two to three miles from the Houses of Parliament the only way an unskilled person would get accommodation would be either on-house accommodation or in a homeless shelter. Even outside of that golden circle there are areas that are very distinct in their relative financial differences, and there have been some dramatic changes in the past thirty years. When I was growing up in the late 1980s, the mention of the name 'Soho' conjured up seedy sex clubs, disgraced politicians, and rent boys. Now it's a trendy scene for the higher middle class Londoner, the East End docklands area was once a run down mass of old collapsing warehouses, with old dock workers living out the end of their lives in leaky Edwardian era houses, now it's £1000/month flats, exhibition centers and Ferrari show-rooms. The people who once lived there have been pushed out by the redevelopment and pushed together into poorer regions, Peckham, Catford, Lewisham (Well, basically, if you want to find the poor areas, look at what caught fire in 2011). In a way, if one had a conspiratorial mind, one could say that the next step will be to put fences around these poor communities (for their protection, of course :O:) and charge people ridiculous money to leave them. :nope:

Oberon

08-16-14, 06:39 PM

will get interesting....curfew, but the crowds are getting larger. also some businesses are arming themselves.

get ready to watch the flames..

Down side of when a protest area gets more publicity, rent-a-mob moves in for free targets. Capt. Johnson made a difficult but correct call to ease off on the police presence last night, despite the looting, as local Alderman Antonio French (https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench) pointed out "I want to be clear: Police not coming in at this point -- even with the looting -- was a good thing. It would've gotten very violent." and "It became so clear the awfulness of the situation. Communities need police. But here & now, the slightest police presence enrages people."

There's two people who have stood out for me in this whole ordeal, that's Antonio French and Capt. Ronald Johnson, without their calm and level headed approach the situation over the past two nights could have been a heck of a lot worse. Both deserve some form of award when this is over from at the very least the state level.

Armistead

08-16-14, 07:00 PM

Down side of when a protest area gets more publicity, rent-a-mob moves in for free targets. Capt. Johnson made a difficult but correct call to ease off on the police presence last night, despite the looting, as local Alderman Antonio French (https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench) pointed out "I want to be clear: Police not coming in at this point -- even with the looting -- was a good thing. It would've gotten very violent." and "It became so clear the awfulness of the situation. Communities need police. But here & now, the slightest police presence enrages people."

There's two people who have stood out for me in this whole ordeal, that's Antonio French and Capt. Ronald Johnson, without their calm and level headed approach the situation over the past two nights could have been a heck of a lot worse. Both deserve some form of award when this is over from at the very least the state level.

yea, don't send the police, let the businesses be looted and destroyed; let the owners arm themselves like many are finally doing. Must be nice to be a owner and watch your life work be destroyed by looters when the police don't come when called.....

see many are saying they're gonna defy the curfew, hope they all get their butts thrown in jail...

Oberon

08-16-14, 08:48 PM

yea, don't send the police, let the businesses be looted and destroyed; let the owners arm themselves like many are finally doing. Must be nice to be a owner and watch your life work be destroyed by looters when the police don't come when called.....

see many are saying they're gonna defy the curfew, hope they all get their butts thrown in jail...

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If the police had gone in last night a hell of a lot more businesses would be on fire, more people would have rioted and the situation would have deteriorated rapidly.
The curfew is a sensible move, but it could not have been put in place until an event like last night occurred, the police have to react to events not try and jump the gun (pardon the rather poor pun) and inact martial law to try and stop any looting.
If people go out to break the curfew tonight, to loot and riot, despite having been told by the community leaders, the police, and the other people who high up in this protest not to go out, well then they deserve everything that's coming to them. :yep: If shop owners want to take up arms to defend their shops, well that is their constitutional right, but they had just better be careful who they shoot, last thing they want to do is shoot a cop. :nope:

Armistead

08-16-14, 10:03 PM

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If the police had gone in last night a hell of a lot more businesses would be on fire, more people would have rioted and the situation would have deteriorated rapidly.
The curfew is a sensible move, but it could not have been put in place until an event like last night occurred, the police have to react to events not try and jump the gun (pardon the rather poor pun) and inact martial law to try and stop any looting.
If people go out to break the curfew tonight, to loot and riot, despite having been told by the community leaders, the police, and the other people who high up in this protest not to go out, well then they deserve everything that's coming to them. :yep: If shop owners want to take up arms to defend their shops, well that is their constitutional right, but they had just better be careful who they shoot, last thing they want to do is shoot a cop. :nope:

didn't we try this....give an inch, people will take a mile....let's hope calm heads prevail, but my guess is there's a group that will start it and then the rest will join in....

Jimbuna

08-17-14, 06:35 AM

Looting....send in the National Guard.

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-17-14, 07:49 AM

Things are going from bad to worse there in Ferguson, it would be one thing if the protests remained peaceful but when the looting and rioting keeps going the protesters are doing more to hurt their cause then they are to advance it. http://news.msn.com/us/one-shot-seven-arrested-in-clashes-after-curfew-in-ferguson-missouri

Rockstar

08-17-14, 09:00 PM

"A previously unnoticed detail in a background conversion of a video taken minutes after the Ferguson shooting could change the course of the investigation into Mike Brown’s death."

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

Armistead

08-17-14, 09:13 PM

yea, very interesting....sounds like brown turned and charged the cop. Not sure if it's old or tonight, but wife just said she saw on pc that the store he robbed got looted and ruined

Oberon

08-17-14, 09:13 PM

I think, as in most cases like this, the real issues that need to be looked at in this, are going to get buried in an eternal circle of 'he says, she says', with the police saying Brown was drunk/high/aggressive [circle as appropriate] and Browns defenders saying the opposite.
Meanwhile the rent-a-mob crowd, Anon, Alex Jones and the like have bussed in, in hopes of provoking some sort of event that will further their agenda, be it pictures or video of police brutality, an uprising, or just free stuff from looted shelves.
The people who were legitimately protesting peacefully will be sidelined, despite their best efforts to stop the violence, because the media doesn't find them interesting, the media prefers burning shops and looters. Meanwhile all this will give people the excuse to say "There, see, the police were right to shoot him, because these people are all the same" and eventually things will burn themselves out, the media will turn to another crisis, the police will mop up the protests, the firefighters will water down the ashes, and things will go back to normal until the next time, with the major questions unanswered.

yea, very interesting....sounds like brown turned and charged the cop. Not sure if it's old or tonight, but wife just said she saw on pc that the store he robbed got looted and ruined

I think that happened the same night that they released the CCTV footage. See, this is why you don't release this kind of information until a proper investigation has taken place. That officer may well have shot in self-defence, but now his name is out, his life is over, he'll have to go into witsec and be rehomed somewhere else in the country under a new ID. You just can't do the sort of things with information that you could ten or twenty years ago, the internet is watching and it knows everything, give it a sniff and it'll hunt you down.

Oberon

08-17-14, 09:34 PM

Cops decided to start early tonight, it's all kicking off:

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930

Buddahaid

08-17-14, 09:37 PM

I think, as in most cases like this, the real issues that need to be looked at in this, are going to get buried in an eternal circle of 'he says, she says', with the police saying Brown was drunk/high/aggressive [circle as appropriate] and Browns defenders saying the opposite.
Meanwhile the rent-a-mob crowd, Anon, Alex Jones and the like have bussed in, in hopes of provoking some sort of event that will further their agenda, be it pictures or video of police brutality, an uprising, or just free stuff from looted shelves.
The people who were legitimately protesting peacefully will be sidelined, despite their best efforts to stop the violence, because the media doesn't find them interesting, the media prefers burning shops and looters. Meanwhile all this will give people the excuse to say "There, see, the police were right to shoot him, because these people are all the same" and eventually things will burn themselves out, the media will turn to another crisis, the police will mop up the protests, the firefighters will water down the ashes, and things will go back to normal until the next time, with the major questions unanswered.

I think that happened the same night that they released the CCTV footage. See, this is why you don't release this kind of information until a proper investigation has taken place. That officer may well have shot in self-defence, but now his name is out, his life is over, he'll have to go into witsec and be rehomed somewhere else in the country under a new ID. You just can't do the sort of things with information that you could ten or twenty years ago, the internet is watching and it knows everything, give it a sniff and it'll hunt you down.

Well said.

Armistead

08-17-14, 10:41 PM

autopsy report

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

Jimbuna

08-18-14, 06:12 AM

Looting....send in the National Guard.

The US state of Missouri is sending the National Guard to the town of Ferguson as protests escalate over the police shooting of an unarmed black teenager.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28832462

Oberon

08-18-14, 06:24 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTU-_mCQAAl0Rn.jpg

Armistead

08-18-14, 10:27 AM

Armistead

08-18-14, 10:32 AM

Anonymous Hacks got the audio from police after shooting..

http://www.newser.com/story/192436/anonymous-releases-audio-in-st-louis-shooting.html

Dread Knot

08-18-14, 10:34 AM

Watching autopsy report on TV, it seems to defy witness reports that he was shot while running away. With the shot to the top of the head, seems his head was down, could he have been charging cop or did the cop walk up to him while he was on his knees with hands up and execute him......right.
Be interesting when the toxicology reports come out.....

The one thing that really seems odd to me is that none of the shots were at close range, and that includes the hand and arm shots. I guess I can imagine a scenario where the officer is instinctively firing in fear of his life, although it takes some hoop-jumping.

What I cannot understand is that if it went down that way even remotely, why police have held that information and allowed witness accounts of shaky accuracy to take hold in the neighborhood and fuel the anger.

Armistead

08-18-14, 10:45 AM

The one thing that really seems odd to me is that none of the shots were at close range, and that includes the hand and arm shots. I guess I can imagine a scenario where the officer is instinctively firing in fear of his life, although it takes some hoop-jumping.

What I cannot understand is that if it went down that way even remotely, why police have held that information and allowed witness accounts of shaky accuracy to take hold in the neighborhood and fuel the anger.

I think they said the police did fear for his life, was attacked in his car. Seems the guy was trying to escape, but police don't let people that assault them escape. Don't know why Mike if running away, would've turned and charged. Maybe he stopped in fear, turned around and charged as the witnesses said in the other video.:hmmm:

Anyway, police wait for all the facts before spamming off and considering other law enforcement took over, lawsuits, etc....they're gonna build a complete case, not try bits and pieces in the media.

Oberon

08-18-14, 11:57 AM

Overview of Michael Brown family and autopsy press conference
Brown family wanted autopsy performed on their behalf because they didn't know if federal officials were going to conduct their own independent autopsy. The family did not want to rely on an autopsy from St. Louis law enforcement.
THIS IS A PRELIMINARY AUTOPSY, THIS CAN NOT BE OVERSTATED.
Mother asked some initial questions to the medical examiner. How many times was he shot? At least 6 times Was my child in pain? Not likely, as he was hit in the brain
Darrell Parks, discussing autopsy.
Kill shot: Apex of the head, severe and clear injury that went from a back to front direction. Bullet entered hairline and exited in the eye area. It is important that to note that the autopsy shows the bullet went in a back to front direction which supports eye witness account. In his opinion Michael Brown had chin tucked in, face down.
The autopsy did not spark the uprising last night, as it was released 2 hours after the start of the unrest.
Sean Parcells, medical examiner.
One bullet entered the hairline, out through the eye, in through the chin, and then reentered the right shoulder.
Dr. Baden, based in New York, medical examiner.
Are there any wounds that are inconsistent with eye witness account? Could be consistent, its possible.
How far were they shot from?
Distance from muzzle of gun to body: no gun shot residue on skin surface so that muzzle was at least 2-3 feet away, it could be 30 feet away and it would look the same.
How many times was he shot? 6 bullets struck him. 2 may have reentered. 3 bullets recovered on first autopsy. Emphasized that X-ray's will be important to look at going forward. X-rays, photographs, should be available "at some time" whether today or 3-4 months from now. Notes that they will probably be available sooner than later because of the high profile case.
Access to clothing? Clothing is now with St. Louis County Police Agency, they are going to be looking at it. Family will have access to it at some time.
Signs of struggle? No evidence of struggle.
Abrasions around right side of Mr. Brown's head, rubbing against the ground. This like happened after he was shot and fell to the ground.
Where did the autopsy take place and how long did it take? First autopsy was at County Medical Examiner, and the second was at Arthur Lane funeral home. 3-4 hour autopsy.
Toxicology results, should be done in a week or two. Should be available very soon.
He could have survived all of these gunshot wounds, with the exception of the shot in the top of the head.

Meanwhile, the Guard rolls out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X3Me_MVR90):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvVTuKjIMAAN6PY.jpg:large

Oberon

08-18-14, 12:23 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQr6oT_zS44

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-18-14, 01:28 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQr6oT_zS44

:sign_yeah: Points out a lot of problems.

Armistead

08-18-14, 01:54 PM

Well, I think we all know in towns like this and overall police profile, create cause to check into individuals, etc. I think they feel in towns like this the constitution doesn't matter.

Have they released anything on the officers incident report or a copy of it? That is usually done the same day. Just wondered if the officer thought if he was armed, mentioned charging him, etc....Also, what if a person made an attack on a officer, went for his gun.....is that cause enough to shoot a fleeing person. Heck, youtubes full of fleeing people getting shot or shot at, but overall the officer has to feel they endangered a life or too dangerous to let them escape.....just not sure how rules apply here

Armistead

08-18-14, 03:04 PM

See no curfew tonight....Showing Walmart barricading their doors with carts and water jugs...as other businesses are doing. Then the national guard coming in....interesting.

Seems to be a game, how to blame....at the expense of businesses.

Catfish

08-18-14, 03:16 PM

Forensic results have been published, does not look good for the police.
I leave it at that.

Oberon

08-18-14, 04:40 PM

There does seem to be a distinct lack of organisation on the side of the state government and police. It swings from crackdown to softly-softly at random.
Earlier this morning Capt. Johnson said that he was not going to call in the National Guard, then less than an hour or two later, the National Guard was called in by Nixon. First there was a curfew, then the police started riot control measures three hours early, and then the curfew was called off and the National Guard called in. I mean...tonight are they going to hand out candies and then tomorrow night enforce martial law?

Really does seem to be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing... :hmmm:

Oberon

08-18-14, 08:39 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvXDhJFCEAAogsS.jpg:large

http://www.silverdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/kent1.jpg

http://quotes.lifehack.org/media/quotes/quote-George-Bernard-Shaw-if-history-repeats-itself-and-the-unexpected-89237.png

Dread Knot

08-18-14, 09:06 PM

You do wonder what the plan will be if even the National Guard + Police can't quell the rioting. Take off and nuke the site from orbit? (it's the only way to be sure---that lawyers crawl from the rubble and clean up.)

So far, the "Show-Me State", ain't shown me much.

Armistead

08-18-14, 10:23 PM

You've maybe heard the video where witnesses in background comment that Mike ran at him. Seems that video on CNN left out a lot. Here is one maybe with more info, but witness that saw it states Mike rushed the cop and the cop started shooting.

Also out, the officer that arrived on scene after the shooting said the officer that shot said.....he was bummed rushed....

Anyway, my guess is the officer will be made a scapegoat so cities won't burn.....course, they'll drag it out for a long time hoping people will forget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mAaJMBxKA4

HunterICX

08-19-14, 04:38 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQr6oT_zS44

Was saying to myself before I saw that why on earth would the police be equipped with Military grade equipment it's both excesive, unnecessary and has a serious problem.

First of all it's simply not the Police's job to act like a Military Force you throw the concept of being Police straight out of the window. Police and Military are two things that should well be kept away from eachother unless you want to pose an opressive stance towards your own people.
They're to serve and protect not to oppress and control.

Second is that the police as obviously demonstrated the past few days are not trained to use this kind of equipment and handle it carelessly like kids that just got bigger toys then they had before. This is equipment that only should be used on your own soil by the National Guard in case of a serious emergency which threaten the whole Nation and used by some specialized trained forces like Swat.

MRAP's used by local Sherif, really talk about excesive I wasn't aware that neighbourhoods where heavily littered with IED's and Mines in the states. :nope:

Third is that isn't this a nice sign towards the general population? I would be worried if my Police was armed to the teeth like that. They're not yet wearing red coats and marching under Rule Britannia imposing new rules and demand that you'd obey their orders under threat of violence but give it time and you'll start to see some worrying stuff as imo the Police should handle cases like this with extreme care instead of carelessly with big imposing toys. I as a civilian would no longer feel protected by the Police but I would fear them...and that's a bad sign.

Skybird

08-19-14, 05:02 AM

GERMAN LANGUAGE

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article131363772/Der-Tag-an-dem-die-US-Polizei-mein-Feind-wurde.html

Ansgar Graw, correspondent for German newspaper Die Welt, was arrested and held prison for three hours because he did his job. In this GERMAN editorial he describes how he arrived in Ferguson, first had good experiences with the helpful police, noticed how very different both side'S description of the events at night are, and then got hazed and finally arrested over essentially nothing else than doing his job.

Graw put it in clear words in a nightblog message in the same paper, saying that there was clear intent by the police to prevent any further reporting. Several other journalists got arrested even when reporting from currently peaceful scenes where only traces of past violence were to be seen.

Assessing the claimed reason for Graw's arrest - he was told that they would not limit the right of free speech but that he would not be allowed to stand still when shooting pics, but needs to constantly walking (making photographing somewhat difficult and low-quality), and when he did and shot poics and ,moved and moved, tge nevertheless got arrested - I think there are questions to be asked that lead beyond the issue of racism and police toughness (lets face it, internationally the reputation of the US police is not really the best, to put it this way: too easy to shoot, and too easy to tazer, and too many incidents of excessive use of firearms as well as racism time and again).

Needless to say that Graw says his trust into the police with which he has grown up in the US from childhood on, has been destroyed.

Oberon

08-19-14, 06:03 AM

That moment when "the right to peacefully assemble" meets "failure to disperse". #Ferguson (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ferguson?src=hash) pic.twitter.com/jAraUgC228 (http://t.co/jAraUgC228)

I also found this on tumblr, it is perhaps a little conspiratorial, but to be honest with some of the things I've seen and heard coming out of Ferguson it would not entirely surprise me. :nope:

“You realize that everything the police are doing in Ferguson is carefully calculated, right? They’re purposely turning peaceful protests into riots. They’re purposely committing violence to incite violence. From saying ‘We won’t be answering 911 calls,’ which is a very clever way to set themselves up to be able to say, ‘We were afraid for our safety - any call could really be an ambush, our lives were in danger’ right down to the camouflage and the military tanks and wearing more body armor than a soldier in a war zone. Its exactly why they’re going for a media blackout - yet allowing certain photos through - they WANT you to see their tanks. They want you to see their riot gear. They WANT you to see a war-zone. They’re trying to sell the world the idea that this community is inherently and constantly a source of violence and turmoil - they want you to think that they [the police] are being attacked daily in a place so vicious they need full body armor. You know why? Because then, at the end of the day, you might just be able to believe the story they’re going to spin. They’re going to tell you that this (white) officer goes to work in this war zone every day - that he spends every working moment in constant fear for his life. They’re going to tell you that Michael Brown attacked this officer. And then they’re going to bring up everything that has happened in the aftermath and try to use it to convince you that he shot that little boy because he was afraid for his life. They’re setting up a defense. You mark my words, they’re trying to set up a defense.”

Wolferz

08-19-14, 06:25 AM

I also found this on tumblr, it is perhaps a little conspiratorial, but to be honest with some of the things I've seen and heard coming out of Ferguson it would not entirely surprise me. :nope:

Media blitzkrieg is the preferred method for pulling wool these days. They'll do or say anything to exonerate a murderous cop.:-?

If they're such scared wittle wabbits, maybe they should find another line of work.

Skybird

08-19-14, 07:04 AM

More bad news, another German jounalist, this time from German tabloid "Bild", has been arrested as well , and since then is unable to be found, his personal data however already are shown within the data network of a federal prison, so it seems he is to be shuttled in for a longer stay in the US justice system. :-?

Multiple US and other international journalists have been caught off the street as well. The intention to suppress independent reporting of what is going on in Ferguson apparently can no longer be denied. US reporters and itnernatiuonal journalist associations speak of another frontal assault on the free press in the US.

Oberon

08-19-14, 07:47 AM

Amnesty International (on their first mission in the US) also got guns pointed at them and told to move off. Journalists have been shot at with bean bags, threatened to be shot or maced and generally harassed by the police.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7A0TJMAP5E

Jimbuna

08-19-14, 07:58 AM

Turning into a right royal mess :nope:

Oberon

08-19-14, 08:11 AM

That's somewhat of an understatement Jim. :03:

Meanwhile, there's been some doubt cast on the accusation of Michael Brown being a shoplifter, for starters the store has denied that any of its staff run the police, indicating that it was likely a customer who rung the police and reported what they thought was a robbery.

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/store-owners-talk-about-surveillance-released/

There's also an unconfirmed video circulating that seems to indicate that Brown paid for the cigars, even putting some back after he realised he didn't have enough money for all of them. However since the video is quite unconfirmed and only circulating on various disputable websites then I can't be certain of its veracity.
One thing that has definitely been shown in this mess is how on the back foot the mainstream media has been when compared to citizen reporting and information gathering. A handful of volunteers on a reddit feed have been able to gather more information, links and videos than any of the main US media outlets. Furthermore, they've been careful to filter out any left or right wing bias and precede any potential controversial links with a disclaimer rather than presenting it as a hard fact.
The likes of CNN and Fox could learn a thing or two from Reddit. :yep:

Catfish

08-19-14, 11:34 AM

Armistead

08-19-14, 01:07 PM

News said forensic study showed that Mr. Brown has been shot six times in the front, four in arms and body, two in the head. One of it from above.

Are they declaring war to themselves ? :nope:
It hurts to see that happening just of all in the US :shifty:

Heck, think there were 30 murders in Chicago this past week or even weekend....this just has the media

and here we have another eyewittness with ...his version of the story. Basically that Mike got shot, got on his knees and gave up, cop came up and shot him several times basically point blank, Mike fell, cop shot him a few more times.

Be prepared for Mofo bout every other word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfy5FiqzWHI

Reports, more confirm officers story....don't know how true or not, looks like more rumors.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/169302-police-sources-tell-reporter-witnesses-coming-forward-corroborate-officers-account/?fb_action_ids=10152422053753439&fb_action_types=og.comments

More, again true or not, don't know, officers eye orbit was fractured as Brown attacked him. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/

Wolferz

08-19-14, 01:26 PM

Heck, think there were 30 murders in Chicago this past week or even weekend....this just has the media

and here we have another eyewittness with ...his version of the story. Basically that Mike got shot, got on his knees and gave up, cop came up and shot him several times basically point blank, Mike fell, cop shot him a few more times.

Be prepared for Mofo bout every other word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfy5FiqzWHI

Reports, more confirm officers story....don't know how true or not, looks like more rumors.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/169302-police-sources-tell-reporter-witnesses-coming-forward-corroborate-officers-account/?fb_action_ids=10152422053753439&fb_action_types=og.comments

From what I've read, the forensic pathologist the family called in to autopsy this kid found no gunshot residue on his person to indicate a point blank shot. YMMV But, the media is so busy tripping over themselves and the authorities are so busy with their brooms and rug, it's hard say exactly what happened with any certainty. Except, maybe jaywalking is now a crime that requires the use of deadly force.:-?

eddie

08-19-14, 01:52 PM

Turning into a right royal mess :nope:

Got that right Jim, and its the only thing on the news over here! Like has been said, more murders in Chicago, but no mass media coverage. Getting sick of hearing about Ferguson, its like its the only thing going on in the world ATM!!:nope:

Armistead

08-19-14, 01:57 PM

Got that right Jim, and its the only thing on the news over here! Like has been said, more murders in Chicago, but no mass media coverage. Getting sick of hearing about Ferguson, its like its the only thing going on in the world ATM!!:nope:

It's all about money, media blows it up, the more ratings they get. The race baiters blow it up, more attention they get. The lawyers know what they're doing, it's all about a big payday.

Oberon

08-19-14, 02:08 PM

From what I've read, the forensic pathologist the family called in to autopsy this kid found no gunshot residue on his person to indicate a point blank shot. YMMV But, the media is so busy tripping over themselves and the authorities are so busy with their brooms and rug, it's hard say exactly what happened with any certainty. Except, maybe jaywalking is now a crime that requires the use of deadly force.:-?

I think the big problem was that the family pathologist only got the naked body, so he couldn't test the clothing for gunshot residue, which puts a bit of a limit on available data.

Meanwhile in St. Louis another man has been shot, and killed, although this one was wielding a knife at the time, it's been described by eye-witnesses as 'suicide by cop'. Now...call me old fashioned here but...does any American cop carry a taser? I can't help but think that using one of the pistol tasers that we have here in the UK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vx_PqJg0tA) might be a slightly better way of subduing a non-firearm armed threat. :hmmm:

Armistead

08-19-14, 03:04 PM

Onkel Neal

08-19-14, 04:14 PM

Cops may use tasers, but if someone is coming at them with a knife, they generally don't risk missing with a a taser. Now, if he was standing there with a knife, he would've gotten zapped....

That's true. I guess it helps to put onesself in a cops shoes. If you have someone threatening you, do you wait until it is possibly too late to keep yourself safe before using force? Is that going to be part of the job description for cops now? I know I sure wouldn't go for that. I do not want to let a 6'4" young man get his hands on me in anger. Or someone with a knife attacking me, I have to trust in a taser. Screw that :huh: "Put your hands behind your head and get on the ground". That's all a cop has to say to me, I just do it. If people would simply comply with the officer, it would eliminate 99% of this. Why does a cop have to take a blow or a cut before he can do his job? Can you imagine if waiters or car mechanics had to deal with people threatening them to do their job?

I do agree with the comments made by several about the dangers of an over militarized police force. That has to stop. If the danger of rioters and looters warrants that kind of force, bring in the National Guard.

Wolferz

08-19-14, 04:19 PM

I think the big problem was that the family pathologist only got the naked body, so he couldn't test the clothing for gunshot residue, which puts a bit of a limit on available data.

Meanwhile in St. Louis another man has been shot, and killed, although this one was wielding a knife at the time, it's been described by eye-witnesses as 'suicide by cop'. Now...call me old fashioned here but...does any American cop carry a taser? I can't help but think that using one of the pistol tasers that we have here in the UK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vx_PqJg0tA) might be a slightly better way of subduing a non-firearm armed threat. :hmmm:

That's correct and he noted it in his report. As for the kid's body, no gunshot residue was found.
There's always the possibility that the local ME sanitized the corpse.

They do carry Tasers and some have used them to kill innocent people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then there's the SWAT team that busted into a home to serve a warrant on a suspected drug dealer and tossed a flash/bang grenade into an occupied playpen, severely injuring a little boy. Not to mention their numerous door busting antics at wrong addresses. The boys in blue have gone full tilt military with the lame excuse of fearing for their own safety. Did they not read the job description before they applied!???:stare:

Aktungbby

08-19-14, 05:59 PM

..does any American cop carry a taser? I can't help but think that using one of the pistol tasers that we have here in the UK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vx_PqJg0tA) might be a slightly better way of subduing a non-firearm armed threat. :hmmm: Nope a taser is also a deadly weapon (unfortunately) often by accident to victims with a previous heart condition. Ergo I won't carry one and in the incidence of a knife or 'perceived deadly threat' the officer may respond at the 'highest level'. The more so after fellow Napan Mehserle made his fatal error in the BART station by confusing the two pistol grips. I made my current employer quit using them to save him on lawsuits. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2008/07/tasr-j25.html (https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2008/07/tasr-j25.html) According to data collected by Amnesty International, at least 500 people in the United States have died since 2001 after being shocked with Tasers either during their arrest or while in jail. Amnesty International recorded the largest number of deaths following the use of Tasers in California (92), followed by Florida (65), and Texas (37). The Oklahoma City Police Department led all law enforcement agencies in deaths (7) following by Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, Harris County Sheriff’s (Tx), Phoenix, Az and San Jose, Ca., all with six deaths.
Neal Stevens: I guess it helps to put onesself in a cops shoes.Cops may use tasers, but if someone is coming at them with a knife, they generally don't risk missing with a a taser. Now, if he was standing there with a knife, he would've gotten zapped.... READING: parts 1 and 2; the way it is still taught: http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/ For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons. An average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet. The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack." Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.
http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/images/strel3.gif The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/images/strel3.gif For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/images/strel3.gif
Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.

The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified. This is what we are taught at academies SOP; and anything within 21 feet (7 yards) is of the keenest interest threatwise to a street officer. I doubt I (age 63) can clear at 1.7 seconds these days, against a teenager with a rusty HIV infected spoon shambling at me in 2.5 seconds to ask if I've got lighter so he can 'cook up'...and that has happened.:doh:

Oberon

08-19-14, 06:18 PM

Fair points. :yep:

I guess the US police relies on a power of fear rather than respect. :hmmm:

Onkel Neal

08-19-14, 06:22 PM

Where in the world do criminals show police respect?

Armistead

08-19-14, 06:47 PM

Fair points. :yep:

I guess the US police relies on a power of fear rather than respect. :hmmm:

I get mixed on it. Watched 100's of youtubes regarding cops and have seen numerous times I felt cops overreact, even with force. Like if a guy starts reaching when cop says "hands up" and blast the guy only to find it was a phone...

But then...all those other videos of cops showing respect, being nice, trying to diffuse and the criminal take quick advantage and kill the cop.

However, many situations could be avoided it cops followed the constitution, which they often don't.

Oberon

08-19-14, 07:46 PM

I meant towards the general public, I mean when a police officer in the US tells you to do something, is it done out of respect for the law and its enforcers, or a fear that you'll be shot if you don't? :hmmm:

Still, in lighter news it seems that the Westboro Baptist Church has brought its message of love and tolerance to Ferguson...with any luck the police and rioters will team up to kick them out. :03:

Von Tonner

08-20-14, 03:28 AM

Jimbuna

08-20-14, 04:36 AM

A second shooting but the protests appear to be more controlled and peaceful:

Hundreds of people have taken part in renewed protests in Ferguson in the United States following the shooting by police earlier this month of an unarmed black teenager.

So far the demonstrations have remained peaceful.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28863106

Oberon

08-20-14, 05:49 AM

Oh my goodness:o. Egypt telling the US to be cautious. Don't think that is going to sit too well with Obama's Administration.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/19/us-usa-missouri-egypt-idUSKBN0GJ0Z420140819

The international reaction has been, amusing:

The New China News Agency said hours before Nixon ordered National Guard troops into Ferguson, "Obviously, what the United States needs to do is to concentrate on solving its own problems rather than always pointing fingers at others."[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LaTimes.international-111)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Der Spiegel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel) posted an interview with Marcel Kuhlmey, professor in the department of security management at the Berlin University of Economics and Lawa, a security expert, who asserted that what happened in Ferguson could never happen in Germany, stating that "In the U.S., it seems to me, the police are far quicker to resort to guns. Even at the training stage, there is a much heavier emphasis on shooting [than in Germany]".[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LaTimes.international-111) Zeit Online described the incident as an example of deep-rooted racism in the U.S, concluding that "the situation of African-Americans has barely improved since Martin Luther King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.)."[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-WaPo.restOfWorld-112)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Flag_of_Iran.svg/23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) The Islamic Republic News Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_News_Agency), commented, "[V]iolence has become institutionalized in the U.S. in recent years, but since President Obama, the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, came to the White House, the violence has intensified, and now it has erupted against blacks in Ferguson."[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LaTimes.international-111)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/23px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Flag_of_Turkey.svg/23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Flag_of_Palestine.svg/23px-Flag_of_Palestine.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine) Protesters in the Middle East have expressed support for protesters in Ferguson, using social media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media) to equate the protests and police response to conflicts in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt), Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), and the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip), and offered advice on how to deal with tear gas.[113] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-NYTimes.advice-113)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Russia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) The Russian Foreign Ministry stated "our American partners [have] to pay more attention to restoring order in their own country before imposing their dubious experience on other nations" and that the U.S. "has positioned itself as a 'bastion of human rights' and is actively engaged in 'export of democracy' on a systematic basis", but that "serious violations of basic human rights and barbaric practices thrive" in the country.[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LaTimes.international-111)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9a/Flag_of_Spain.svg/23px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) El Mundo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mundo_%28Spain%29) wrote that Obama's "words of peace and reconciliation are perceived by many activists as inadequate and almost treason to a situation they see as a direct result of slavery and racial segregation laws that were in force until 1965."[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-WaPo.restOfWorld-112)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Flag_of_Sri_Lanka.svg/23px-Flag_of_Sri_Lanka.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka) The Sri Lankan Daily News opined: "For the U.S. to issue a travel warning for Sri Lanka does seem odd at a time when there are race riots in Missouri."[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LaTimes.international-111)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) Abigail Chandler of the newspaper The Metro wrote that "[w]hile the [London riots] were at their worst, people were calling for rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannons to be used against the rioters, Ferguson is a living example of why we should be immensely grateful that those tactics were never used during the U.K. riots."[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-WaPo.restOfWorld-112)

A second shooting but the protests appear to be more controlled and peaceful:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28863106

It does seem to be steadily losing steam, if the police are looking to play the long game, waiting until it burns out rather than attempt to clamp down on it and risk it flaring up again, then it might be paying off.
There's going to be a LOT of analysing of this, I think it's probably one of the best documented riots in American history, so there's going to be a lot of information from both sides of the police tape to go over and think about when it's all said and done.

In other news, Choo Choo! All about the riot train!
https://vine.co/v/M3Y9AnXJ6gx

BossMark

08-20-14, 06:12 AM

Police being heavy handed and over reacting??

Oberon

08-20-14, 06:14 AM

Police being heavy handed and over reacting??

Depends on the day, some days they have been, some days they've been very hands off. Last night was an example of that, there were a handful of clashes, but nothing compared to two nights ago when the curfew was in effect.
They seem to be running at it in different ways, trying to see what works.

Jimbuna

08-20-14, 06:32 AM

Depends on the day, some days they have been, some days they've been very hands off. Last night was an example of that, there were a handful of clashes, but nothing compared to two nights ago when the curfew was in effect.
They seem to be running at it in different ways, trying to see what works.

I think you missed the context Jamie :03:

Oberon

08-20-14, 09:40 AM

I think you missed the context Jamie :03:

http://i.imgur.com/LspP1rA.jpg

Jimbuna

08-20-14, 09:53 AM

Police being heavy handed and over reacting??

I was thinking along the lines of the national coal miners strike :)

Oberon

08-20-14, 09:56 AM

I was thinking along the lines of the national coal miners strike :)

Coal not Dole?

Still, at least it hasn't got to Peterloo levels yet. :yep:

Oberon

08-20-14, 12:28 PM

An article in The Economist lays out the problems:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-police

With some interesting statistics:

Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times. The number of people fatally shot was zero. In 2012 the figure was just one. Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a police officer than Americans. Between 2010 and 2014 the police force of one small American city, Albuquerque in New Mexico, shot and killed 23 civilians; seven times more than the number of Brits killed by all of England and Wales’s 43 forces during the same period.

Wolferz

08-20-14, 01:16 PM

An article in The Economist lays out the problems:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-police

With some interesting statistics:

But, then again, guns are outlawed in Great Britain.:salute:

As for us cousins across the big lake, we have plenty of guns. Most in the hands of responsible law abiding owners. It's the much smaller percentage of desperadoes and whack jobs that have made things extremely tough on our police officers. Giving them the idea that every citizen is a potential cop killer and in need of deadly force to subdue 100% of the time.
So, our local, state and federal governments hire Neanderthals to be their enforcers of a plethora of laws and regulations.
Cops and criminals have one thing in common. They're both considered sociopaths from a mental health point of view.
We have plenty of good cops and a select few bad cops who make their good brethren look bad in the eyes of the public. No unarmed suspect should ever be shot, tasered or killed in cold blood by a police officer. Ever!

Mister Brown was shot 6 times. SIX! And he's not the only citizen who has been murdered by an angry police officer who allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement.
A badge is not a license to kill.

Oberon

08-20-14, 02:12 PM

That is the problem, the police have to be armed to counter the armed citizens who might be criminals (and I know that people are going to turn around and say 'when have criminals obeyed the law in regards to firearms', however as the article also points out:

The last time a British police officer was killed by a firearm on duty was in 2012, in a brutal case in Manchester. The annual number of murders by shooting is typically less than 50. )

and as such the default position to avoid potential police fatalities is to go for lethal force if there is a possibility that a weapon is involved.

In essence, de-militarising the police might change the police attitude, but I'm not so confident it will lower the amount of people killed by the police in the US every year.

Onkel Neal

08-20-14, 02:37 PM

Catfish

08-20-14, 02:56 PM

I do not know where i read it, but if the police gets armed tank-like vehicles, assault rifles, black masks and all that military stuff, it will at some point behave like the military.

And the terrain will become a combat zone - the neighbourhood, that is. And the enemy will be civilians living in that zone.

Until they do not step down from overreacting, there will only be further escalation.

Armistead

08-20-14, 06:08 PM

But, then again, guns are outlawed in Great Britain.:salute:

As for us cousins across the big lake, we have plenty of guns. Most in the hands of responsible law abiding owners. It's the much smaller percentage of desperadoes and whack jobs that have made things extremely tough on our police officers. Giving them the idea that every citizen is a potential cop killer and in need of deadly force to subdue 100% of the time.
So, our local, state and federal governments hire Neanderthals to be their enforcers of a plethora of laws and regulations.
Cops and criminals have one thing in common. They're both considered sociopaths from a mental health point of view.
We have plenty of good cops and a select few bad cops who make their good brethren look bad in the eyes of the public. No unarmed suspect should ever be shot, tasered or killed in cold blood by a police officer. Ever!

Mister Brown was shot 6 times. SIX! And he's not the only citizen who has been murdered by an angry police officer who allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement.
A badge is not a license to kill.

Depends Wolferz, a big man can easily kill another with his hands or do severe damage, worse, one blow, take his gun and shoot him. If Mike did in fact go for the officers gun, punch him, that in itself could give him the legal right to shoot a fleeing felon. If that person turned and charged, that would give him the legal right to shoot. The fact is, cops don't have to risk their body or lives based on the possibilities of what might or might not happen. You attack one, he can shoot you.

Now, if Mike surrendered. went to his knees and got blasted...that's murder, but seems many conflicting statements.

The fact is the media is causing all the stir for the ratings....nothing else. No one is giving the officer the benefit of the doubt, everyone is claiming his guilt before trial.

Rockstar

08-20-14, 06:12 PM

5 Gunfights That Changed Law Enforcement
In the past 25 years, American law enforcement tactics, procedures, and policies have evolved because of these horrific incidents.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2011/05/5-gunfights-that-changed-law-enforcement.aspx

everyone cop wants to go home at the end of the day. Better equipment helps with that. Keep the bump helmets, vehicles, and firearms but ditch the camo and BDUs and get back to blue and show a little bit more restraint.

Oberon

08-20-14, 06:21 PM

Of course,there could be consequences to policing unarmed.http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/19/13963585-uk-police-resist-calls-to-give-cops-guns-despite-double-murder?lite

This is true, however when you look at the statistics, this is not a common event, and to be honest if they had been armed it probably wouldn't have done them much good because he got the element of surprise on them. The guy shot 31 rounds in 32 seconds, and since the hoax call that brought them there mentioned nothing to do with firearms then even a US cop would have been surprised when they opened the door and received a face full of ammunition followed by a hand grenade.
Incidentally, that was the last time a British police officer was killed by a gun in the UK, sadly I'm sure there will be others, but when you make the comparison, and the consequent rise in fatalities, it's ultimately not practical to do so.

donna52522

08-20-14, 06:47 PM

Mister Brown was shot 6 times. SIX! And he's not the only citizen who has been murdered by an angry police officer who allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement.

I don't think I would call it a murder or refer to the officer as angry until all the facts get straightened out.

vienna

08-20-14, 06:56 PM

I don't think I would call it a murder or refer to the officer as angry until all the facts get straightened out.

Right said! :up:

<O>

Oberon

08-20-14, 07:03 PM

I don't think I would call it a murder or refer to the officer as angry until all the facts get straightened out.

Aye, as tragic as it is, at the moment the worst it is is manslaughter, until there's a formal inquiry as to the events then we just won't know.

Of course, the Catch-22 is that the inquiry will be likely held by the 'establishment' and as such, the results will likely not be believed by the aggrieved parties. A full public, open, inquiry is probably the better option, but that will be a long and messy process, however hopefully one that will yield results that will be more satisfactory than an internal inquiry.
We will see, last night was a quieter night than the one before it, so we'll see what happens tonight, with any luck the civil disorder is starting to burn out now. Some rain might help, it did in London.

Some rain might help, it did in London.

Seems like someone was listening to me, of course, this being America it just has to go one better and have hail...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvhjQpbIEAUc4_K.jpg:large
Storm in yellow box - 60 mph winds and penny size hail#ksdk #stlwx (https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlwx?src=hash)

Dread Knot

08-20-14, 08:52 PM

Aye, as tragic as it is, at the moment the worst it is is manslaughter, until there's a formal inquiry as to the events then we just won't know.

Of course, the Catch-22 is that the inquiry will be likely held by the 'establishment' and as such, the results will likely not be believed by the aggrieved parties. A full public, open, inquiry is probably the better option, but that will be a long and messy process, however hopefully one that will yield results that will be more satisfactory than an internal inquiry.

Federal involvement could go a long way to help quell distrust of the county's handling of the case. Sometimes it's very difficult for a district or a county attorney to convince a minority community that he or she can be objective where the police are concerned. However, the Civil Rights Division prosecutes police officers all the time. That's what they do. Plus, blacks have traditionally held a higher opinion of the federal government then they have of local and state jurisidictions (for a multitude of historical reasons I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure it started with The War of Northern Agression. :D)

But the downside is that they work slow. The answers, and potential charges so many are demanding, won't come quickly. We're talking months, not weeks and some civil rights investigations have taken years. FBI agents have now reportedly conducted more than 200 interviews and even that will take a long time to plow through.

CaptainMattJ.

08-21-14, 02:02 AM

I don't think there is a solution. I wish we could b like great Britain, that stat is amazing.

Of course,there could be consequences to policing unarmed.http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/19/13963585-uk-police-resist-calls-to-give-cops-guns-despite-double-murder?lite
There's never going to be a solution. Things like this will always happen. But there are hundreds of things we can do to help reduce the frequency and severity of these kinds of incidents. Brown's case is pretty muddied, and there are all kinds of conflicting eyewitness accounts, so really not much can be definitively said about him. But there is no question that the police response to the protests were simply grotesque. Simply the fact that tear gas is used AT ALL anymore is disturbing. What, it's illegal to use tear gas in war but when you're firing tear gas canisters, which have a very real chance of severely injuring or even killing someone simply from impact, indiscriminantly into crowds of citizens, it's ok? Threatening to shoot reporters over a camera light? The police collectively presented themselves as authority figures that were far above the law, and it felt as though they treated everybody as if they were criminal threats. And in my opinion, this attitude is one of the primary reasons why so many incidents occur and why so many innocent people get harassed, injured, and even killed. It also really doesnt help when police are trained as if they were deploying to Feluja and their firearms are admired and awed instead of respected for what they are: dangerous weapons that are only to be used in the utmost desperate of situations as the last resort. Police training, accountability for actions, and generally the attitude of many police officers in this country need a complete overhaul.

But those kinds of attitudes and rules take a long time to change. One of the more effective and quicker solutions is to require things like body cams or things of that nature. Not only will incidents like this never again have to rely on he said-she said, but overall the quality of service should go up. A cop on camera is far less likely to use excessive force when they understand theyre being filmed and far less likely to overreach their authority. It also helps the cops themselves when unjust complaints are filed against them. Just something to consider.

Catfish

08-21-14, 03:25 AM

I don't think I would call it a murder or refer to the officer as angry until all the facts get straightened out.

Normally i would agree.

However: Shot six times, two in the head, one from above leaving the ear.
In the 1950ies and 60ties in Alabama, "straightened-out facts" would have added a block of concrete and a well, and called that a clear case of suicide.

Everytime you think those times are over (and if you ask a contemporary citizen anywhere in the US, they are), such things happen again. The US is not the only nation where such things happen, but just of all there .. a pity.

I wonder what happened to the US after 1999, for me it seems there was a real break in social behaviour, and rights. Of couse, 9/11 did not help the situation.

Oberon

08-21-14, 05:28 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BviGFEtCAAAxEMz.jpg:large

Things seem to be dying down now, the weather helped I think, but I think the anger and rage is drying up, and the media has refocused on IS after the recent beheading.
It might flare up again when news snippets are released, but otherwise I think we might be seeing the end of this now, not so much by police intervention but just through sheer old fashioned patience. The clean-up will begin, it already has really, the community has helped, and some businesses will reopen, others will not...I think the QuikTrip has folded, I heard that somewhere but I'm not entirely sure.
Of course, the important thing that should start after that is the investigation and the asking of vital questions into race relations in America, is there a problem? Certainly when the BBC asked a group of people the results were...telling, one could say (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28844868), and perhaps something that should be considered, because ignoring it really does not seem to be an option in todays society.

Wolferz

08-21-14, 06:05 AM

I don't think I would call it a murder or refer to the officer as angry until all the facts get straightened out.

Sad to say, it's human nature dear. The kid allegedly punched the officer and tried to grab his gun. I know that would piss me off.:stare:
Now add to that scenario an officer who just had his au-tho-ri-tie disrespected.....
I doubt that we'll ever know all the facts because people lie and I've had police officers bear false witness against me before and I've seen too many incidents where they've done the same to others.
One fact we do know is... Mister Brown was shot in the top of the head. An indication that the officer was firing his weapon in an uncontrolled fashion and just spraying bullets down range.
Since I can neither confirm or deny actions I did not witness, I will say no more.:shucks:

Flamebatter90

08-21-14, 06:11 AM

Since I can neither confirm or deny actions I did not witness, I will say no more.:shucks: Better that way, you seem to have made up your mind already.

Wolferz

08-21-14, 07:00 AM

Better that way, you seem to have made up your mind already.

It's just my opinion. Which counts for dick.:shucks:

Jimbuna

08-21-14, 07:32 AM

Keep Dick out of this, he is a stand-up guy.

Oberon

08-21-14, 07:53 AM

Keep Dick out of this, he is a stand-up guy.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00485/46ee09c2-5c40-11e3-_485124b.jpg

STEED

08-21-14, 07:55 AM

^ "I'm not a crooks head".

Wolferz

08-21-14, 10:16 AM

^ "I'm not a crooks head".

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=richard+nixon+on+laugh+in&FORM=VIRE8#view=detail&mid=35D55E5388C3F02B210335D55E5388C3F02B2103

:har:

donna52522

08-21-14, 10:46 AM

However: Shot six times, two in the head, one from above leaving the ear.
In the 1950ies and 60ties in Alabama, "straightened-out facts" would have added a block of concrete and a well, and called that a clear case of suicide.

Well this isn't the 50's or 60's. It's those types of views and comparisons that keep that way of thinking going. It's time to think differently.

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j408/donna577/f032d8ce-e2ec-4f8a-9a0e-ca47fa0c7cd1_zps4592a287.jpg (http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/donna577/media/f032d8ce-e2ec-4f8a-9a0e-ca47fa0c7cd1_zps4592a287.jpg.html)

Wolferz

08-21-14, 02:49 PM

Well this isn't the 50's or 60's. It's those types of views and comparisons that keep that way of thinking going. It's time to think differently.

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j408/donna577/f032d8ce-e2ec-4f8a-9a0e-ca47fa0c7cd1_zps4592a287.jpg (http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/donna577/media/f032d8ce-e2ec-4f8a-9a0e-ca47fa0c7cd1_zps4592a287.jpg.html)

By getting your donkey to throw tables?:har:

Oberon

08-21-14, 03:18 PM

Unicorn man, Unicorn, well...alicorn now.

Armistead

08-21-14, 06:58 PM

Sad to say, it's human nature dear. The kid allegedly punched the officer and tried to grab his gun. I know that would piss me off.:stare:
Now add to that scenario an officer who just had his au-tho-ri-tie disrespected.....
I doubt that we'll ever know all the facts because people lie and I've had police officers bear false witness against me before and I've seen too many incidents where they've done the same to others.
One fact we do know is... Mister Brown was shot in the top of the head. An indication that the officer was firing his weapon in an uncontrolled fashion and just spraying bullets down range.
Since I can neither confirm or deny actions I did not witness, I will say no more.:shucks:

I like it when someone says a whole lot, then admits they can't confirm anything they said......sounds like MSNBC..

Oberon

08-21-14, 07:10 PM

"Doveryai no proveryai" :yep:

CaptainMattJ.

08-21-14, 09:09 PM

I like it when someone says a whole lot, then admits they can't confirm anything they said......sounds like MSNBC..
Better add Fox News and CNN to that list......

Wolferz

08-22-14, 05:27 AM

I like it when someone says a whole lot, then admits they can't confirm anything they said......sounds like MSNBC..

Care to join me in St Louis, Misery?

We can track down Officer Wilson and get the skinny straight from the donkey's... err... officer's mouth.:cool:
Be sure to pack your Kevlar vest, helmet and MOPP gear.:03:
At least we won't have to worry about the No Go's. Nixon sent them home according to MSNBC.:haha:

PS: We can also pack an AR-15 and test our right to bear arms or, on second thought, just some short sleeve shirts.

Oberon

08-22-14, 06:29 AM

https://31.media.tumblr.com/81a193d58b96fb93a105d0010cefed38/tumblr_naoof2oljN1qaf2nxo4_r1_1280.jpg

A thousand roses laid in the street where Brown was killed.

Onkel Neal

08-22-14, 07:51 AM

How to avoid trouble with the police (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACKmYhlTx5k)

Wolferz

08-22-14, 08:15 AM

https://31.media.tumblr.com/81a193d58b96fb93a105d0010cefed38/tumblr_naoof2oljN1qaf2nxo4_r1_1280.jpg

A thousand roses laid in the street where Brown was killed.

Culprits cited for littering.:-?

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

08-22-14, 12:58 PM

But those kinds of attitudes and rules take a long time to change. One of the more effective and quicker solutions is to require things like body cams or things of that nature. Not only will incidents like this never again have to rely on he said-she said, but overall the quality of service should go up. A cop on camera is far less likely to use excessive force when they understand theyre being filmed and far less likely to overreach their authority. It also helps the cops themselves when unjust complaints are filed against them. Just something to consider.

Another approach might be to change the law. Remove all the special rights a cop has to use lethal force. He has to bet his life and freedom to the same degree as the average citizen every time he uses lethal force for any reason, just like the rest of us.

And his fellow officers to the court in such cases are to be considered as credible as an average defendant's mother (that is to say, NOT).

And resist the urge to give them back just because one or two of them get killed. We tried giving them special rights and it doesn't seem to be working.

If the guy is forced to seriously think he might land into prison, rather than be protected by softee privileged laws to the police and every policeman willing to lie for him (and be believed), things might be different.

Wolferz

08-22-14, 01:45 PM

How to avoid trouble with the police (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACKmYhlTx5k)

Follow Mister Rock's advice. It may be your only remedy. According to this article...

http://news.msn.com/us/us-government-faces-high-bar-charging-cop-in-ferguson-death

I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.

Oberon

08-22-14, 02:13 PM

Cell phone footage of the shooting of the guy with a knife in St. Louis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-P54MZVxMU&bpctr=1408736206

Honestly, suicide by cop, there wasn't much else the cops could do really, I mean a taser might have worked but judging by the amount of people that have been killed by tasers in the US then it probably would have ended the same way.

This chap made a good selection of postings on the subject:
http://imgur.com/gallery/l62iF

Catfish

08-22-14, 03:03 PM

^ This is all good and well, but this young man in Ferguson was not armed as far as i read.

Of course, anyone can carry a concealed gun, so .. shoot first ask later :hmmm:

Onkel Neal

08-22-14, 03:17 PM

Another approach might be to change the law. Remove all the special rights a cop has to use lethal force. He has to bet his life and freedom to the same degree as the average citizen every time he uses lethal force for any reason, just like the rest of us.

And his fellow officers to the court in such cases are to be considered as credible as an average defendant's mother (that is to say, NOT).

And resist the urge to give them back just because one or two of them get killed. We tried giving them special rights and it doesn't seem to be working.

If the guy is forced to seriously think he might land into prison, rather than be protected by softee privileged laws to the police and every policeman willing to lie for him (and be believed), things might be different.

Wow, can you imagine how hard it will be to keep good cops on the job if everyone feels like its ok to feed a few to the lions? :o Try to imagine: you are being threatened by a man who is extremely belligerent, who is something like 6'3" and 260 pounds. He is coming at you...and you see a cop and instruct him not to shoot the assailant, just find some way to keep you safe.

Yeah, let's make the job of policeman so undesirable that we cannot find anyone to do it. I can tell you now, I sure as heck would not do the job as you described.

^ This is all good and well, but this young man in Ferguson was not armed as far as i read.

Of course, anyone can carry a concealed gun, so .. shoot first ask later :hmmm:

Legally? No, not everyone. Illegally? Of course. Here in the US, in Germany, UK, Japan, anywhere. But let's not turn this thread into a gun thread ;)

Flamebatter90

08-22-14, 03:29 PM

^ This is all good and well, but this young man in Ferguson was not armed as far as i read.

Of course, anyone can carry a concealed gun, so .. shoot first ask later :hmmm:

Right, Powell was asked to stop 2-3 times. Powell's answer was "Shoot me" and he kept adnvancing, it was reported he had a knife. What you think the cops should have done? What would you have done?

So sick of everyone pointing the finger at the police. Like the photo of a young girl 3-4 days ago, holding a sign that said something like "I want to go to school". Here's a thought: Hold that sign to your parents, not at the camera! It's not the police that wont let you go, it's the rioters that prevents your education.

The more information comes, the more it seems to support Officer Wilson.

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

08-22-14, 07:30 PM

Wow, can you imagine how hard it will be to keep good cops on the job if everyone feels like its ok to feed a few to the lions? :o Try to imagine: you are being threatened by a man who is extremely belligerent, who is something like 6'3" and 260 pounds. He is coming at you...and you see a cop and instruct him not to shoot the assailant, just find some way to keep you safe.

Yeah, let's make the job of policeman so undesirable that we cannot find anyone to do it. I can tell you now, I sure as heck would not do the job as you described.

Neal, I'll argue this "Let's protect our cops at all costs" attitude is leading to the mess that we see today. Every time an extremely low percentage incident occurs, Americans clamor for more (and more expensive) guns, body armor, more "special rights" for the cops and even the curriculum of the police courses need change. To an alarming extent they are granted, and the cumulative effect is the ugliness we see today.

At the very least, if after the cops get shot Americans consider increase, the inverse should also be true. After every blowout like this, American must consider decreases yet to a stunning extent this is not happening. The police band together to protect their own and Americans, wanting to trust their police, agree to treat it at worst an "individual case" and let the cops keep their rights.

At the rate Americans are going, by 2050, police will be in Bradleys and be granted complete free-fire ROEs. This has to stop.

Platapus

08-22-14, 07:55 PM

There has to be a middle ground

A point where the police are empowered to do their duty but at the same time have actual accountability.

That's all that I am asking for. Reasonable accountability if the officer exceeds his or her warrant.

We can't have the police empowered to shoot anyone (or anyone's dog for that matter) simply because the officer felt "threatened".

I can't shoot someone just because I feel threatened. I feel "threatened" pretty much any time I walk though DC!! I have to wait until someone actually attacks/attempts to attack me. Why are the police, with better armour, better weapons, better training, and better backup held to a LOWER standard?

The police are the government body most capable of infringing on a citizen's rights. The police have the ultimate authority to kick in my door and drag me out of my house in the middle of the night. At any time they feel "threatened" they can attack, injure, maim, or even kill me.

With that type of authority, the police better be held to a high standard and have to have accountability for their actions. To have a body of government with that much authority and little accountability can not be a good idea in a free society.

I am sorry the job of the police is tough. So handle it by giving the police more. More cameras, more recorders, more back up, more weapons, more armour, more..... As a law-abiding citizen, I am more than willing to pay the extra taxes to pay for this.

The solution is NOT to give the police LESS accountability.

Has there ever been a case where some group has this much authority and this little accountability that has not eventually resulted in abuse?

The shortest road to a police state is marked with the sign "for the public's safety". :yep:

August

08-22-14, 09:17 PM

I am sorry the job of the police is tough. So handle it by giving the police more. More cameras, more recorders, more back up, more weapons, more armour, more..... As a law-abiding citizen, I am more than willing to pay the extra taxes to pay for this.

While I agree with you regarding accountability I don't believe that giving the police more weapons is always a good idea. Weapons are instruments of power and power corrupts.

A policeman wielding a 6 shot revolver takes time to aim and place his shots. A cop wielding a 15 shot semi-auto can and often does shoot a hail of bullets. Brown was shot six times, two of them killing shots in the head. Talk about overkill. What nobody is asking is how many more bullets missed him and plowed into whatever happened to be behind him.

Armistead

08-22-14, 09:42 PM

One thing we have to keep in mind is did Brown have a motivation to attack the officer. He had just robbed a store and attacked the clerk. He had to be concerned that the police had been called and possibly looking for him. Even though the cop didn't know, Brown did. My guess is and it's clear he attacked the cop was he didn't want to go to jail for his previous actions and tried to escape.

There's been much use of the talk of tazers in several shootings. Not sure the cop had one or the two cops that killed the other black guy that came at them with a knife. Cops are getting a lot of military surplus free and grants on other, not on body cameras. Fact is to store the data is expensive and many local govts don't supply the funds.

I hear so many liberals crying about use a tazer, when in fact for years liberals have cried out so much about them, many depts have stopped using them...

Onkel Neal

08-22-14, 10:03 PM

Well, we can see why I'm not a cop :D

"Officer Neal, we have a large disturbed man with a knife" -- click! (radio off)

I'm sure it'll work itself out, let's grab a donut!

Armistead

08-22-14, 10:12 PM

If Ferguson is mostly black, maybe they should have black police forces in these towns...Since it's suck a race issue for these towns, maybe that's the answer. Let's see how it would work out then...

Onkel Neal

08-23-14, 12:08 AM

http://dissonantwinstonsmith.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/dissonance/

Speaking of verbal comments, the black officers there with us that night
defending the pharmacy suffered the worst comments that the crowd had to
offer. While we received general threats geared at our race and our
occupation, the black officers were singled out and targeted directly with
personalized attacks.. When the crowd wasn’t commenting on their physical
appearance, the officers were called “Uncle Toms,” “House N***ers,” and
“Traitors.” One of the black officers with us was standing back holding an
AR-15 rifle. A few women called him out directly saying, “All these other
pigs got sticks and you’re the only one that’s got a gun out. You’re the
only one they got ready to kill folks.” For whatever it’s worth, I was
glad someone had a rifle in case we were fired upon by a similar weapon
which is not uncommon to this area.

Interestingly, in the days that followed, the lack of diversity within the
various local area police departments was cited as part of the problem
perceived by the community. Having watched the verbal barrage these
officers had borne the brunt of, I didn’t know how any qualified black
person could want to be an officer. It didn’t matter to the crowd if these
black officers were good people or even good officers. The crowd decided
that they were subhuman simply because of their group affiliation. It’s
pathetic for a community to complain about a lack of black officers when
that same community hypocritically treats them so terribly.

Yeah, I don't think black police officers like dealing with this either.

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

08-23-14, 12:21 AM

One thing we have to keep in mind is did Brown have a motivation to attack the officer. He had just robbed a store and attacked the clerk. He had to be concerned that the police had been called and possibly looking for him. Even though the cop didn't know, Brown did. My guess is and it's clear he attacked the cop was he didn't want to go to jail for his previous actions and tried to escape.

Oh, I've just went to look at the (photographed) report. From the sounds of it, "rob" is the wrong term. Supposedly he stole something. The clerk tried to stop him. He pushed the clerk away and left. That is not exactly a robbery by common definition, which will involve him threatening the clerk for say the money in the cashier.

Nevertheless, it is certainly possible Brown attacked the cop. The more interesting problem is whether the cop was justified in shooting him. He was going after him for jaywalking, and even the theft charge is not really a big deal. It is very questionable for him to be justified to use lethal force. As you mention, Michael's priorities are almost certainly in escaping rather than killing the cop.

Jimbuna

08-23-14, 05:34 AM

Oberon

08-23-14, 05:39 AM

The link won't work for me :hmmm:

Do you have a youtube account? You might need to sign in or create one to view it since it "has been identified by the YouTube community as being potentially offensive or graphic. Viewer discretion is advised."

Could be something up with the account though, try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTBPtWUJqPM

Wolferz

08-23-14, 06:22 AM

Well, we can see why I'm not a cop :D

"Officer Neal, we have a large disturbed man with a knife" -- click! (radio off)

I'm sure it'll work itself out, let's grab a donut!

:up:The SCOTUS has your back on that one, Neal. 10-4?

The Supremes have ruled that it's not a requirement for police officers to put themselves in harms way to protect anyone.
So, on the one hand, we have Paul Blart mall cop. (Observe and report) and on the other we have Darren Wilson Ferguson cop (Grab black jaywalkers and shoot to kill if they resist)

I shudder to think how many times I've endangered my life by walking in the middle of a neighborhood street.:timeout:
This whole mess seems to stem from the over reaching authority that the Police think they have. Somewhere along the line some of them have forgotten who pays their wages and they think that because they are the law authority, they are above the law and can do as they please.

If anyone wants proof, just walk into your local police station and ask for a complaint form. I bet before your interaction with the desk sergeant is concluded, you'll find yourself thoroughly beaten, handcuffed and thrown in the slammer on some false charge.:shucks:

Platapus

08-23-14, 09:35 AM

While I agree with you regarding accountability I don't believe that giving the police more weapons is always a good idea. Weapons are instruments of power and power corrupts.

A policeman wielding a 6 shot revolver takes time to aim and place his shots. A cop wielding a 15 shot semi-auto can and often does shoot a hail of bullets. Brown was shot six times, two of them killing shots in the head. Talk about overkill. What nobody is asking is how many more bullets missed him and plowed into whatever happened to be behind him.

Excellent points. Perhaps it would be better if we put more research into non-lethal but incapacitating weapons.

Since one of the priorities of the police is to preserve evidence for prosecution, a priority should be placed on keeping the suspect./innocent bystander/law-abiding citizen alive for interrogation/prosecuting.

It is the 21st century. I am sure there are technologies that can be developed other than slamming a projectile into a person's body.

Killing someone is one way to stop a threat. But it is not the only way.

Armistead

08-23-14, 01:06 PM

Maybe Bill Cosby should give his speech again.

http://www.rense.com/general82/ana.htm

Onkel Neal

08-23-14, 04:20 PM

Oh, I've just went to look at the (photographed) report. From the sounds of it, "rob" is the wrong term. Supposedly he stole something. The clerk tried to stop him. He pushed the clerk away and left. That is not exactly a robbery by common definition, which will involve him threatening the clerk for say the money in the cashier.

Nevertheless, it is certainly possible Brown attacked the cop. The more interesting problem is whether the cop was justified in shooting him. He was going after him for jaywalking, and even the theft charge is not really a big deal. It is very questionable for him to be justified to use lethal force. As you mention, Michael's priorities are almost certainly in escaping rather than killing the cop.

Robbery. Shoplifting. Aggravated assault. Threatening a smaller man. Whatever you want to call it, it adds up to the same thing: thuggery.

One thing many people who keep chanting "unarmed black teen Michael Brown" are blatantly overlooking: officer Wilson did not know unarmed black teen Michael Brown was in fact, unarmed. Who's to say that unarmed black teen Michael Brown wasn't carrying a gun or a knife? It' easy to second guess the office from the comfort of your sofa, but if unarmed black teen Michael Brown did indeed grapple with Officer Wilson, was he to assume that there was no greater threat than a left hook? It only takes a second for the situation to turn deadly for an officer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3fNz4Roec0) :shifty:

August

08-23-14, 04:53 PM

If the officer had been wearing something like Goggle glasses or had the patrol car been equipped with video we might have avoided much of the public angst.

Platapus

08-23-14, 06:48 PM

It only takes a second for the situation to turn deadly for an officer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3fNz4Roec0) :shifty:

It only takes a second for the situation to turn deadly for a citizen.

Kinda works both ways.

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

08-23-14, 07:36 PM

One thing many people who keep chanting "unarmed black teen Michael Brown" are blatantly overlooking: officer Wilson did not know unarmed black teen Michael Brown was in fact, unarmed. Who's to say that unarmed black teen Michael Brown wasn't carrying a gun or a knife? It' easy to second guess the office from the comfort of your sofa, but if unarmed black teen Michael Brown did indeed grapple with Officer Wilson, was he to assume that there was no greater threat than a left hook? It only takes a second for the situation to turn deadly for an officer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3fNz4Roec0) :shifty:

Here's a question, Neal. How likely is it that a normal citizen ... even if he had been assaulted on the street would have gotten away with shooting his opponent based on only the fear that his opponent might have had a weapon after all?

Remember my first post? In essence, I suggest that the rules be changed so that the officers get that same probability.

Buddahaid

08-23-14, 07:53 PM

Some good points all. One glaring difference is the police are expected to confront the crazies while the rest of us can just walk away, however, if a normal citizen were to shoot the knife wielding person shown in the video a few posts back, a murder charge would have been brought on as there were clearly two shots fired late after the man was down. The law would have said the man was no longer a threat and murdered.

Aktungbby

08-23-14, 08:08 PM

If anyone wants proof, just walk into your local police station and ask for a complaint form. I bet before your interaction with the desk sergeant is concluded, you'll find yourself thoroughly beaten, handcuffed and thrown in the slammer on some false charge.:shucks:

Even then you must always anticipate the 'worst case scenario'...within 21 feet!:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYt2HmAxHL4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYt2HmAxHL4)

Wolferz

08-24-14, 06:08 AM

Even then you must always anticipate the 'worst case scenario'...within 21 feet!:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYt2HmAxHL4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYt2HmAxHL4)

Ahh movie magic!:up:

Police work are hard.:yep:

Besides, if I wanted to file a complaint against a member of the paramilitary, I'd call Saul.
And if I was so inclined to cause harm to a law dog, I wouldn't be anywhere near the fellow. Much less within 21 feet!

Nope. I ain't a gonna do it.
Besides, it's fun to have your butt sniffed by an assniffer of the law:huh:.

Onkel Neal

08-24-14, 06:50 AM

It only takes a second for the situation to turn deadly for a citizen.

Kinda works both ways.

Clever. But wrong. You know, and I know, if unarmed black teen Michael Brown had simply walked to the sidewalk, he would still be alive today and ready to steal more merchandise and terrorize more tiny Pakistani shop keepers.

Here's a question, Neal. How likely is it that a normal citizen ... even if he had been assaulted on the street would have gotten away with shooting his opponent based on only the fear that his opponent might have had a weapon after all?

Remember my first post? In essence, I suggest that the rules be changed so that the officers get that same probability.

Honestly, I don't know the fine points of the law. My concealed weapon class instructed me that I should only use my weapon if I had a reasonable fear for my life. I guess that's up to a DA office, and possible a grand jury. They stressed it was impostant to avoid an encounter, escape an encounter, and only use the weapon as a last resort. I can tell you this, I am not going to resort to the Marquess of Queensberry Rules of boxing if a punk starts hammering me, especially a thug as big and strong as unarmed black teen Michael Brown. Sorry.

I do remember your first post, sorry if I did not reply. I understand your concern, but the police are not in the same situation as a citizen. Think you can react quickly to a knife attack? No, you can't (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xpcrDzy344).

Von Tonner

08-24-14, 07:06 AM

Clever. But wrong. You know, and I know, if unarmed black teen Michael Brown had simply walked to the sidewalk, he would still be alive today and ready to steal more merchandise and terrorize more tiny Pakistani shop keepers.

Ain't that the truth. Watching the video of him taking the cigars and his nonchalant attitude in doing so it would certainly appear as if Mr Brown was a law unto himself. Or thought himself as such.

Onkel Neal

08-24-14, 04:10 PM

Oberon

08-24-14, 04:39 PM

And thus, the cycle is complete and the original concern forgotten.

Browns death, and the opportunity to objectively look at demilitarising the police of America has been kicked back into the long grass, to be forgotten about by America until the next riot. Because it's not peaceful protest that gets peoples attention anymore, it's riots and the destruction of property.
Then, of course, this very destruction is used to blacken the cause of the anger, and turn the public against them, and so people turn off the news on Ferguson and turn back over to Honey Boo boo.

Until next time. :nope:

Platapus

08-24-14, 06:54 PM

"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."
--Christopher Dawson or Morgan Sheppard :)

Armistead

08-24-14, 09:10 PM

"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."
--Christopher Dawson or Morgan Sheppard :)

depends if the evil attacked you first and wants to destroy you......than by all means, let the gloves come off...

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

08-25-14, 12:19 AM

This is what you should be outraged by. (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/widow-describes-knockout-game-attack-that-killed-husband-as-st/article_fdab9b63-3349-5707-bc02-a9038dd5ebe4.html)Anyone hear of this man, Hoang Nguyen? Have you seen any blacks protesting his senseless killing by an unarmed black teen? Did Obama send aides to his funeral. Where were the race baiters Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?

I understand the concern over cops exceeding their authority, but when the inmates are running the country, when crime is this bad, when the USA is degenerating into a third world country; I think gangs, drugs, & thugs warrants more attention.

It is a sad day when people think of this last line. We have police and other means to guard against gangs and thugs. But who's going to guard us from the police?

BTW, Neal, is it just an accident you chose a murder by a suspect black? Statistically speaking, America does not go one day without a murder. Surely there are some suitable *white* cases you can cite.

As for the point where cops are not in the same position as citizens ... let's not be remiss in pointing out that though cops are required to confront baddies (so we can certainly judge them according to stand your ground rather than run away doctrines), they also have the advantage of training and protection that a regular citizen won't have. That means where you may be forced to shoot the baddie, he isn't. Or at least if he has been working out.

I'm not unaware of the studies to reaction time against knive attack but don't see how police should be given special rights in this regard.

To take some more "policey" examples, let's take a look at Japan's (not exactly human rights central, at least by Western standards) equivalent law for using weapons by police:
ARTICLE 7 A police officer may

1. use his weapon in case there is reasonable ground to deem it necessary for the apprehension of a criminal or the prevention of his or her escape, selfprotection or protection of others or suppression of resistance against the execution of his official duty within the limits judged reasonably necessary in the situation. However, he shall not inflict any injury upon any person except the case falling under the category of the provisions of Article 36 (Legal Defence) of the Criminal Law (Law No. 45, 1907) or of Article 37 (Emergency Refuge) of the same law, or the case falling under any of the following categories;

In case a person, who is actually in the act of committing, or has sufficient ground to be suspected of having committed, a violent and dangerous crime which deserves a death penalty, perpetual penal servitude or imprisonment, or penal servitude or imprisonment for a maximum period of not less than three years, resists the police officer against the execution of his duty to the subject person or attempts to escape or a third person resists the police officer with the object of letting the subject person escape; provided there is reasonable ground on the part of the police officer to believe that there exists no other means but to do so either for the prevention of such resistance or escape or for the apprehension of such persons.
In case of apprehending a person under a warrant of arrest, or serving a warrant of production or detention, if the subject person resists the police officer against the execution of his duty to the subject person or attempts to escape, or a third person resists the police officer with the object of letting the subject person escape; provided there is reasonable ground on the part of the police officer to believe that there exists no other means but to do so either for the prevention of such resistance or escape or for the apprehension of the subject person.

Note the most important part of the law. With a suspect in the "following categories" (in essence, serious felons and people with arrest warrants on them), a police's right to use force is independently determined using this law only. Which provides great potential for judges to take the convenient path and side with the police (in Japan, there is little doubt they do so for the laws controlling length of detention).

When a suspect is not under these conditions, the right to use injurious force is not fully independent but linked to the self defence provisions common to all citizens. Which means should a judge rule a police use-of-force as valid under self-defence, he is forced to move the common line. Should a commoner get into a similar scrape the next day, he can (in principle) cite the judge's ruling as a precedent and the judge is forced to pay some heed, since it is not a "Cop-only" thing.

If a judge or jury wants to say a cop should be permitted to shoot people because they can't react in time to knives. Fine. Let the commoner with a concealed permit that same judgment. If you are not willing to do that, then maybe you shouldn't letting the cop go either.

And I don't see how that is such a high bar.

August

08-25-14, 05:18 PM

Surely there are some suitable *white* cases you can cite.

I doubt it. I've never heard of a case where a white victims murder was protested by blacks.

Platapus

08-25-14, 07:18 PM

I doubt it. I've never heard of a case where a white victims murder was protested by blacks.

I seem to remember a few on 12 Sep 01

August

08-25-14, 08:47 PM

I seem to remember a few on 12 Sep 01

Well, not the best example as not just white people died that day.

Neals point still stands imo.

Betonov

08-26-14, 01:40 AM

And my countrymen wonder, why my soon to be inlaw from Montana wants to emigrate to Slovenia

Jimbuna

08-26-14, 07:01 AM

And my countrymen wonder, why my soon to be inlaw from Montana wants to emigrate to Slovenia

Probably after that schnapps :)

Betonov

08-26-14, 08:15 AM

Probably after that schnapps :)

He's more of a beer drinker.
But we are only a few hour drive from München, good point

Jimbuna

08-26-14, 08:38 AM

I've always wanted to go to a German Beer Festival, the only one I've attended was in Cyprus :doh:

Betonov

08-26-14, 08:59 AM

I've always wanted to go to a German Beer Festival, the only one I've attended was in Cyprus :doh:

The reality is, you're surrounded by vomited passed out drunks with overpriced watered down beer. But that's Octoberfest.
Maybe smaller local festivals are bound to be more enjoyable.

Jimbuna

08-26-14, 09:04 AM

The reality is, you're surrounded by vomited passed out drunks with overpriced watered down beer.

Sounds like TarJaks local pub :)

Oberon

09-24-14, 11:39 AM

21st century cross burning:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/4306a8be4531067e4e95a55597ebe6a1/tumblr_ncczpexw9m1qaf2nxo4_500.png

Rockstar

09-24-14, 11:53 AM

More likely some nitwit left a candle unattended and it burned down the memorial.

Oberon

09-24-14, 02:20 PM

now since you recently did the "race mixing is the work of the antichrist" photo from Little Rock could you dig out any covering some murders of honest to goodness white folks which were protested by black folks?

Just out of interest as I spotted an amazing claim in a post......
I've never heard of a case where a white victims murder was protested by blacks.

Takes a bit more digging than the other way around, but it's there:

http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/Jerrail%20Taylor%20brother%20of%20Dillon%20Taylor% 20speaks%20to%20SLC%20protesters-1%20%282%29.jpg

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/5500-0/photos/1408074374-activists-in-chicago-protest-police-shooting-in-ferguson-missouri_5523410.jpg

Oberon

09-24-14, 03:24 PM

Ah, I was thinking more along the line of the lynching of Schwerner and Goodman.

Not heard about that one, care to elaborate?

u crank

09-24-14, 03:59 PM

Not heard about that one, care to elaborate?

You're not old enough. :O:

Betonov

09-24-14, 04:04 PM

It appears it was a case where two white civil liberty activists were killed by a KKK conspiracy, along with one black activist.

What ?? I'm not posting the links, Tribes brought it up, he should do it :O:

u crank

09-24-14, 04:10 PM

I'm not posting the links, Tribes brought it up, he should do it :O:

:har:

Back then the link was just a dream.

u crank

09-24-14, 05:29 PM

Ah come on, it was only a little while ago that the "christian" preacher Edgar Ray was finally put on trial and convicted.

Sometimes. Justice takes a long time.

Aktungbby

09-24-14, 07:06 PM

Ah, I was thinking more along the line of the lynching of Schwerner and Goodman.

Not heard about that one, care to elaborate?

It appears it was a case where two white civil liberty activists were killed by a KKK conspiracy, along with one black activist.

What ?? I'm not posting the links, Tribes brought it up, he should do it :O: A LITTLE elaboration fer Oberon:yep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers'_murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers'_murders) http://www.findingdulcinea.com/docroot/dulcinea/fd_images/news/on-this-day/July-August-08/On-this-Day--Bodies-of-Three-Civil-Rights-Workers-Discovered-in-Mississippi/news/0/image.jpg

Armistead

09-24-14, 10:32 PM

Betonov

09-25-14, 01:59 AM

You mean to say it was quite well known, well known enough to be made into a big movie as well as well known enough to be dragged back through the courts 40 years later with all the attendant publicity in the national media.
I wonder how people don't know about it?.....
I've never heard of a case where a white victims murder was protested by blacks.

http://memecrunch.com/image/4edd0a501861331d64000000.jpg?w=400
MEDIA

Betonov

09-25-14, 04:27 AM

The entire conspiracy thing is a conspiracy, trying to get our attention elsewhere, thinking about climate change and chemtrails so we don't notice the drugs in our water bottles to make us all worship xanadu :o

Platapus

09-25-14, 04:33 AM

21st century cross burning:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/4306a8be4531067e4e95a55597ebe6a1/tumblr_ncczpexw9m1qaf2nxo4_500.png

Or did someone carelessly put a candle there?

Is there evidence of deliberate arson?

Oberon

09-25-14, 05:13 AM

Or did someone carelessly put a candle there?

Is there evidence of deliberate arson?

Police are saying that it was the candles, but I'd say it was a 50/50 chance, all things considered, no official cause has been given. Other memorials have had things done to them, on the night the shooting happened a police dog was allowed to urinate on one, and a police cruiser drove over another.

Platapus

09-27-14, 07:09 AM

Giving the choice between citizens doing something stupid and citizens doing something malicious, I know where the smart money goes. :D

Wolferz

09-27-14, 07:22 AM

With all of those nice combustible materials...
Just add jar candles and a bit of wind and possibly some mischievous children.:hmmm:

Armistead

10-03-14, 07:57 PM

Oberon

10-03-14, 08:45 PM

See they're still stirring up things in Ferguson, fueled by political leaders. Think I heard the grand jury should be done by mid Oct. Big fears in St. Louis that if they don't come back with an indictment the town will burn. Many are calling that the National Guard should be called in before and ready to go.

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea, there's already rumours that there's 'not enough evidence' for an indictment. So that's going to go down well...or up well, as the case probably will be.

Betonov

10-04-14, 02:37 AM

I'm guessing the national guard is a lot more drilled in weapon handling, crowd control and simple courtesy than the police have shown to be.

Dread Knot

10-04-14, 03:49 AM

I'm guessing the national guard is a lot more drilled in weapon handling, crowd control and simple courtesy than the police have shown to be.

Hopefully. That blot on the NG's record from 44 years ago is never far from people's minds.

http://www.shaka.com/~par/images/ak1.jpg

Betonov

10-04-14, 03:57 AM

Hopefully. That blot on the NG's record from 44 years ago is never far from people's minds.

Oh, right. That.
But those were times of conscripts, surely pa professional unit will react better.

Oberon

11-17-14, 04:26 PM

Perhaps we'll find out at some point in the future.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30091336

The local police forces have been piling up non-lethal equipment and the residents of Ferguson have been getting boards and gas masks ready.

Missouri is watching and waiting...

Armistead

11-17-14, 06:16 PM

A state of emergency has been declared in Ferguson just in case...

Saw on CNN the many black groups there are calling on the community to boycott the businesses, but only white businesses.

I have seen rumors but can't find the truth that Brown has a juvi record and was a suspect in a murder before, but can't find clear honest answers, except even after death, they have sealed his records.

FullMetalADCAP

11-17-14, 08:27 PM

Saw on CNN the many black groups there are calling on the community to boycott the businesses, but only white businesses.

Even KFC?

Oberon

11-17-14, 11:05 PM

The National Guard has been activated.

Be careful now Missouri government in how you react to this...this is how civil wars start... :hmmm:

Buddahaid

11-17-14, 11:11 PM

Even KFC?

Uh......

Oberon

11-17-14, 11:15 PM

Uh......

That'll happen, part of the perception, perhaps part of dehumanising the situation. Sweep it under the carpet, chalk it up to another black criminal getting his just desserts.
Snag is, that lump in the carpet is getting rather large and people are starting to notice. :03:

August

11-17-14, 11:24 PM

The National Guard has been activated.

Be careful now Missouri government in how you react to this...this is how civil wars start... :hmmm:

Not likely.

Armistead

11-17-14, 11:32 PM

Not gonna be a civil war, maybe see a few towns go up in some flames, but no one will be interested in a CW near the holidays...

August

11-17-14, 11:36 PM

Not gonna be a civil war, maybe see a few towns go up in some flames, but no one will be interested in a CW near the holidays...

Exactly. Riots never happen in cold weather. It's 19 degrees there right now.

Oberon

11-17-14, 11:45 PM

Exactly. Riots never happen in cold weather. It's 19 degrees there right now.

Good point. :haha:

Although admittedly burning houses might just make for good camp-fires.

Still, someone is going to have to look at the elephant in the room at some point.

Armistead

11-17-14, 11:53 PM

Good point. :haha:

Although admittedly burning houses might just make for good camp-fires.

Still, someone is going to have to look at the elephant in the room at some point.

Maybe the elephant in the room is the cop is innocent. IMO the evidence looks that way.

I never bought that the cop tried to drag Brown through his car window, that makes no sense. A small cop isn't going to drag a huge man through his window on top of him, that's a no winner. Cops want distance and control. There is the first lie of Brown's friend. I think Brown attacked and they fought for the cops gun and had Brown got it, he would've killed him, instead he got shot. Yes, the question is what happened next, but based on conflicting witness reports, some say Brown gave up, some say he charged the cop, hard to know........

Still, all the race pimps in the area only want attention and conflict...

August

11-17-14, 11:59 PM

Good point. :haha:

Although admittedly burning houses might just make for good camp-fires.

True but water cannons would really really suck! :har:

Still, someone is going to have to look at the elephant in the room at some point.

Again very true, but I just wish it was a better example than a guy captured on tape robbing and roughing up someone half his size just a few hours earlier.
That's another elephant in the room. :yep:

Oberon

11-18-14, 12:04 AM

Still, all the race pimps in the area only want attention and conflict...

Or maybe the elephant is that forty-six years after Martin Luther King was shot dead there is still a need for race pimps or the fact that the race pimps feel that they need attention, or that there needs to be conflict to get their message across.

Or perhaps the elephant is the fact that the US police force is better equipped for combat than the US Armed Forces and under, it would seem, far less stringent ROE.

Perhaps the elephant is the fact that Amnesty International, the team that goes out to third world countries and makes notes of how badly their prisoners are kept, that they deployed on American soil for the first time in their forty-eight year history, and raised concerns "related to the use of lethal force in the death of Brown, racial discrimination and excessive use of police force, imposition of restrictions on the rights to protest, intimidation of protesters, the use of tear gas, rubber bullets and long range acoustic devices, restrictions imposed on the media covering the protests, and lack of accountability for law enforcement policing protests."

Or perhaps I am just wasting bandwidth. I guess we'll find out when the verdict is reached.

Oberon

11-18-14, 12:10 AM

True but water cannons would really really suck! :har:

:har: Fair point, and they would double up as fire extinguishers. :yep:

Again very true, but I just wish it was a better example than a guy captured on tape robbing and roughing up someone half his size just a few hours earlier.
That's another elephant in the room. :yep:

Can't deny it, that is a problem. I'd be lying if I said that we were problem free in that regards in this country. Certainly the likes of UKIP wouldn't be peddling their xenophobic wares if people were not scared of the social and ethnic change that the nation has gone through and is going through.
But change does that, it scares people, it scares me.

I think though, before that elephant is dealt with though, the bigger elephant needs to be looked at, and not just swept to one side because "he was a thug" which is entirely possible, but there have been countless incidents where the man or woman involved was not a thug, and the ratio of coloured to white victims of these incidents is unfortunately skewed.
Once that's addressed, then perhaps the two communities involved in this stand-off will feel more at ease with trying to find compromises for their future.

Armistead

11-18-14, 12:16 AM

MLK didn't seek race division, that seems to be the goal today. They're numerous groups in the area, Black Panthers, Sharpton,etc...stating there will be violence. People are calling for justice, but the only justice they say they will accept is the cop must be convicted. What happened to innocent before proven guilty? If you can't accept the GJ process, then you don't care about justice.

Not sure what supposed to be done in these situations. Last time business owners had to sit back and watch their lives work destroyed. If they called 911, they were basically told they were out of luck. My point is, you don't solve anything by hurting and destroying INNOCENT people and businesses in your community. People watching just look and say "thugs." Fact is, I've seen numerous racist comments from whites and white groups, that they can't wait to see them burn their own towns down and act the fools....

I agree they're issues and I don't doubt often profiling is done and police often shoot when they could take other measures. Certainly we need to look at all the military crap given to police forces....

Let the process play out and accept it. Heck, we all knew it was a sham when OJ got off. It wasn't a right or wrong thing, but a black vs. white thing, but that's our court system, not perfect, but what we have.

ikalugin

11-18-14, 12:27 AM

People are calling for justice, but the only justice they say they will accept is the cop must be convicted. What happened to innocent before proven guilty? If you can't accept the GJ process, then you don't care about justice.
This principle is (sadly) a rarity in the modern world, especially if one tries to apply it to foreign policy or ethnic/social cleansing.

Oberon

11-18-14, 12:48 AM

Let the process play out and accept it. Heck, we all knew it was a sham when OJ got off. It wasn't a right or wrong thing, but a black vs. white thing, but that's our court system, not perfect, but what we have.

Shouldn't there at least be an attempt to make it perfect, or at the very least strive to make sure it doesn't go the other way?
Should it not be that each and every citizen of the US is judged equally before the law? Should it not be that people should not need to be fearful of the police force and its overwhelming power?

Perhaps I'm suffering from reasonophobia again, but you're always going to get the element of people, regardless of skin colour who just want to set things on fire, that is a given. Perhaps people have forgotten the black folks who protected businesses during the upheavals of a month ago, or those who helped people clear tear gas out of their eyes, and the people who helped clean up after the event.
These people will march down the street (if permitted) but they won't set fire to houses, because they believe that if they follow the procedure marked out in the law, they will make change.
Unfortunately for them, they are slowly becoming the minority, against a larger flood of people who have come to the conclusion that if any change does exist it is moving at a glacial speed, and the only way for them to get attention to their cause is through violence and the hope of sparking a national upheaval.
After all, when you lose your trust in the justice system, in the government and in the law enforcement system...who is there left to trust? Who is there left who will speak for you? Who will fight your cause legitimately?

More and more people, not just in the US, but across the world are reaching this point, and the internet has given them a way to coalesce, to come together in a manner in which they have never had before. Anonymous has risen out of peoples lack of faith in those charged with governing them, the Occupy movement has risen out of contempt and anger at the unequal distribution of wealth in the US and the western world. Who is listening to these people? Who is actually doing something about it? Not any of the mainstream parties, or many of the non-mainstream ones, too busy lining their own nest, but eventually they are going to get a wake-up call...I just hope that the wake-up call actually gets through their thick skulls before too many cities are on fire.

But we shall see...could just be my reasonophobia again, it plays up from time to time when I look at the news. Must keep taking the pills... :yep:

Armistead

11-18-14, 01:05 AM

It's complex for sure, more so in cities with high crime rates and poverty. Geesh, some cities like Chicago often have 60 murders a weekend, gangs, drive bys, etc. These cities are like war zones and many on the force get the mindset of soldiers, not police. The fact is, 90% of black murders are by other blacks and this hardly gets media attention.

Sure you've seen youtubes of cops doing crazy things and I'll shake my head and say, WTH and then you see police trying to be nice get murdered. Had a relative that was a cop in our small town of no crime for several years take a job with the Charlotte city police force. He worked the bad hoods. He was also a combat vet. In months he changed, stressed, constant fights, shootings, etc. Wasn't long he was very stressed and aggressive. He said he was worse than combat, always in fear....His wife finally told him to quit or she would divorce him, so he quit....

Sad thing in America the black culture has become a thug culture and I think rap just promotes it. I think Charles Barkley makes some good points in this short interview what's wrong with black culture today..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOIGk-xbvOM

With the destruction of the black family unit, poverty and crime, these neighborhoods that are warzones are always going to have major issues with the police force and sadly many innocent people get hurt.

CaptainHaplo

11-18-14, 01:09 AM

Or maybe the elephant is that forty-six years after Martin Luther King was shot dead there is still a need for race pimps or the fact that the race pimps feel that they need attention, or that there needs to be conflict to get their message across.

The problem is that such a need does not exist. Race pimps are not needed - they exist because stirring a racial divide is how they make money and get attention.

Riots hurt the locals. Think Al Sharpton is gonna be mixing mortar to rebuild Ferguson if the town gets demolished? No way. He is going to be off to the next great "injustice". Do you think Malik Zulu Shabazz or Hashim Nzinga (both of the New Black Panthers) are going to help rebuild Ferguson? None of these race baiters give a crap about the citizens that they harm with the violence they instigate. If they did, they wouldn't be encouraging an outcome that will see black business people with stores that are robbed, looted and burned. They wouldn't be trying to start violence that will leave black (and white) community members seriously injured or killed.

Change comes at the ballot box. Ferguson is a majority black community - but more whites voted than blacks. Thus the "racial misrepresentation" in the government there. If the community wants change - it has to speak in a way that creates change - by putting in leaders who represent the goals and concerns of the community.

No system is perfect, and yes we should strive to improve it. The citizens of Ferguson have every opportunity to do so - if they choose not to use it, they have no one but themselves to blame. If they select violence over voting, they will suffer under the burden they choose to inflict upon themselves.

I hope they choose a better way forward.

Oberon

11-18-14, 01:50 AM

Both good points, rap culture has a lot to answer for, and I think it's part of something that started really in the 1960s, a widespread rebellion against 'the man' which has gotten a bit out of hand in that 'the man' is now everyone and everything. But equally rap is taken from real life, so it's a bit 50/50 in that it's affected by and equally affects its own subject matter.
It's also true that you won't see the talking heads rebuilding Ferguson after they've done their bit to milk the tensions, but you get those kind of people in any civil disorder.

I also, as I have mentioned earlier, have some pity for the police, as it is a difficult job that they do under difficult circumstances. However there are rotten elements in many police forces that do need weeding out and overhauls needed to restore peoples faith in the police system which has been lost in many places in America and is being lost in Europe.

I also agree that in theory change must be affected at the ballot box, however we have reached a problem in that there is no change no matter what you put in the ballot box. That's why the splinter parties and the radicals like UKIP and the Tea Party have crept onto the scene, because people have lost all faith in their government. In America it's thrice worse, because people have lost faith in their government, their law enforcement agencies and their justice system...in short, they have lost their faith in everything around them. Therefore they will react violently to a nation that they feel has abandoned them. After all, when you can't trust your policeman, your judge or your governor/president...who can you trust?
Perhaps that's why these talking heads who stoke the racial divide are so popular, because they say the right words, and they are something that is not the 'establishment' and thus the trust that would be put in the 'establishment' is transferred to the people calling for black people to rise up in protest.

Don't get me wrong, in Europe we're not much behind you...only we've got a few centuries of engrained servitude to the establishment to overcome before we reach that point, the US is by its very nature anti-establishment, and thus the sort of conflict that will likely become a major theme in democratic western nations in the coming century is originating in America. Some nations will change as a part of it, others will slip into draconian measures to prevent it, and others will go through violent upheaval before some sort of equilibrium is reached.

This has really been coming for a while, but the internet and mobile phone technology has acted as the catalyst to speed things up.

Armistead

11-18-14, 10:33 AM

Oberon

11-18-14, 12:11 PM

I think we missed the mark for change. We've created these large ghetto war zones in about every city in America through social giveaway programs. Our laws for free stuff really doom families. I worked with a black man once, he was actually a foreman making a good wage. He had children by 4 women. Each of those women lived off welfare, food stamps, etc.. and he would visit each one monthly collecting a tad from each.

In our small town, we have several old mill neighborhoods. These were once beautiful blocks, houses and yards kept up nicely, people took pride in what they had. Guess back in the 80's when the mills closed, they started going down as people moved and they were made Sec 8 housing. Now these neighborhoods are slums, houses dumps, yards trashed, etc. The govt built several support social buildings near where people can walk for govt. asst. One issue came out of it, where whites that lived near didn't want to put their children on the buses that went through these neighborhoods as their children were beat up, bullied, etc...All the businesses in the area previously have moved out or closed down..It's the part of our city that white people don't much get near.

As for voting and change, what about cities where blacks do vote in blacks, like Chicago.....more corrupt politicians and cities became even worse.

As many black professional leaders are saying, blacks have got to change this. The more money we throw at social programs the worse it gets. As Charles Barkley said, if you succeed as a black person today you're considered white and looked down upon.

No doubt racism is the cause for much of this. There was a time for better change,maybe in the 50's/60's where we should've invested in high education, jobs, maybe even reparations that worked to promote the black family and businesses, instead we created the welfare system that destroyed the black family, values, etc... Much has changed today and we do try to invest in change, but now we have a generational mindset of living off the govt. and race pimps like Sharpton seek only to promote it.

We have two black families in our neighborhood, both business professionals, nice houses, nice mannered and well spoken children. I'm friends with one of them and we often talk. He basically says he wouldn't let his children near black culture today. He doesn't even allow rap music. He sends his children to private schools.

Fully agreed, I think if you look at society from the 1960s to today you see that progress was made in the 1960s and 1970s but trailed off in the 1980s onwards. I think no-one really noticed it, I mean the attitude and desire for change and dissatisfaction against the establishment hasn't changed since the 1960s, and I think perhaps it's from that attitude of rebellion which once inspired punk and the like now inspires rap and the like.
That is just a theory mind you, I think there's a lot of need for greed in rap too, but if you look at rap songs like 'White America (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwomxUCOjyk)' by Eminem, lyrics like
"so much anger aimed, in no particular direction, just sprays and sprays, and straight
Through your radio waves it plays and plays, 'till it stays stuck in your head for days and
Days,"

Now, where is that anger coming from? Hormones? Perhaps, certainly it's a driving factor, but I think also the widening disconnect between the ruling power and the ruled has had a massive influence in the anger, which is compounded by the inequality of wealth. A black kid born in the ghetto looks up and sees a white CEO on a seven or eight figure salary and knows that even if he managed to get out of the ghetto trap he would have no chance to be that CEO. To be honest you could replace CEO with Congressman or Member of Parliament and you'd have exactly the same problem.

ikalugin

11-18-14, 12:39 PM

Rockstar

11-18-14, 01:43 PM

I cannot count the number of times I've been approached by 5 to 10 year old black children who out of the blue ask me if I'm going to arrest them. And all I am doing is standing in line waiting to pay for my goods at a shopping center in a National Park Service uniform. Just where do children of that age learn this? I suspect they get their ideas from parents, neighbors, community.
Anyway, I simply look right at them and say I will arrest you only if you do something wrong. Then ask them if they would like to be a Park Ranger when they grow up.

Seriously if anyone wanted too. Any young man or woman could get up off their lazy arse and see there is an abundance black mentors, role models and very sucessfull, powerful and well to do black CEO's in business today. But it's easier for the young masses to sit around, collecting welfare, selling drugs, stealing, throwing pity parties and blame 'society' for their misfortunes. Let them rot.

Oberon

11-18-14, 01:46 PM

This is an illusion Oberon I think. Look at Abramovich for example.

So with sufficient effort, talent and perseverance (and luck ofcourse) one could earn his place in society no matter where he comes from.

:hmmm:

It's not exactly a trend though, is it? I mean for every one Abramovich there's thousands, if not millions of people who never get further than the working as a mechanic at the local factory stage.

Oberon

11-18-14, 01:48 PM

But it's easier for the young masses to sit around selling drugs, throwing pity parties and blame 'society' for their misfortunes. Let them rot.

Is the easy answer. :yeah:

CaptainHaplo

11-18-14, 02:24 PM

:hmmm:

It's not exactly a trend though, is it? I mean for every one Abramovich there's thousands, if not millions of people who never get further than the working as a mechanic at the local factory stage.

So not everyone gets a "big stage". What is wrong with working a decent job, doing it well and providing for your family? I know lots of people that work "factory" jobs - or did before they moved a lot of factories out of the area - and people were fine with it. Many of them today have retrained and are in other fields - making ends meet and going on with their lives.

No one stops people from living a decent life (with hope and opportunity to have more than just "decent") except themselves.

Oberon

11-18-14, 02:36 PM

Armistead

11-18-14, 03:57 PM

So not everyone gets a "big stage". What is wrong with working a decent job, doing it well and providing for your family? I know lots of people that work "factory" jobs - or did before they moved a lot of factories out of the area - and people were fine with it. Many of them today have retrained and are in other fields - making ends meet and going on with their lives.

No one stops people from living a decent life (with hope and opportunity to have more than just "decent") except themselves.

Even in our small town they're 100's of jobs that need filling, lower paid, but enough two people working them could provide a decent life for family and kids...Because we are a poor county, we have masses on govt programs. If you go to Walmart you'll find one after the other paying with food stamp cards, black and white.

The big problem is the destruction of the black family. Even in the 60's the majority of black families were poorer, but they stayed together, worked, raised kids, etc.. If you rely on govt. all your life you'll never buy a house, start a business, etc.. We need to change these welfare programs to where they support families that stay together, not reward remaining single and every extra kid is more govt. money.

Wish they could let blacks rule and run their own neighborhoods. As stated, they often have the vote to do so, but don't. Still, few blacks want to be cops in these inner city ghettos. As long as these remain warzones, cops that work them will become soldiers in battle in their approach..

Rockstar

11-18-14, 04:10 PM

Letting them rot is not my answer but simply me agreeing to what THEY (black, white, or sheet brindle brown) seem content to do.

Oberon

11-18-14, 04:23 PM

Letting them rot is not my answer but simply me agreeing to what THEY (black, white, or sheet brindle brown) seem content to do.

Perhaps they feel that there are no other options available to them?

Certainly in certain areas (and not just in the US, UK too) you are almost predestined to wind up in a gang or the victim of one (or both). Sometimes willingly, sometimes unwillingly.
Sure, some escape, others don't see that avenue, and others die before they can.

It's a problem that's always been around, but we've not had the means to communicate about it in the way that we can now, the internet and social media has irrecoverably changed the world, and we're going to see that change translate into action over time. People are not going to put up with the same things they used to, they have a voice now, one that doesn't rely on local media or government to be heard, it can be heard around the world and responded to be people around the world and unless the government wants to go authoritarian on its people there is nothing it can do but try to learn why the people are upset and address this...but that's something that our governments are going to learn the hard way over the next few decades.

August

11-18-14, 05:00 PM

I think though, before that elephant is dealt with though, the bigger elephant needs to be looked at, and not just swept to one side because "he was a thug" which is entirely possible, but there have been countless incidents where the man or woman involved was not a thug, and the ratio of coloured to white victims of these incidents is unfortunately skewed.
Once that's addressed, then perhaps the two communities involved in this stand-off will feel more at ease with trying to find compromises for their future.

But how can the issue be addressed if it uses flawed examples? The ratio you mention is valid only if the victims are equally innocent in the eyes of the public. Holding up the not so innocent like Brown and even Martin as examples of injustice cuts it's own argument off at the knees.

I'm not saying that better examples don't exist but it seems they are never the ones that make the news.

August

11-18-14, 05:05 PM

Let the process play out and accept it. Heck, we all knew it was a sham when OJ got off. It wasn't a right or wrong thing, but a black vs. white thing, but that's our court system, not perfect, but what we have.

OJ isn't really a good example though because he didn't get off because he was black, rather he got off because he was rich enough to hire the best lawyers to defend him. A poor black man in his shoes would have been convicted.

Armistead

11-18-14, 05:10 PM

OJ isn't really a good example though because he didn't get off because he was black, rather he got off because he was rich enough to hire the best lawyers to defend him. A poor black man in his shoes would have been convicted.

True, but he became a symbol of the black victim as the trial was made a black white race issue. As you remember, when he was found not guilty, black America stood up and cheered...It was sort of like pay back I think..

August

11-18-14, 05:39 PM

True, but he became a symbol of the black victim as the trial was made a black white race issue. As you remember, when he was found not guilty, black America stood up and cheered...It was sort of like pay back I think..

Exactly.

Reminds me of a scene from a very funny movie named "Undercover Brother" where Eddie Griffins character, upon finding out that there actually is someone called "The Man" who is keeping the black race down, starts listing injustices...

Undercover Brother: So the conspiracies we've believed for all these years are true? The NBA really did institute the three point shot to give white boys a chance?

Smart Brother: Absolutely!

Undercover Brother: Then the entertainment industry really *is* out to get Spike Lee?

Conspiracy Brother: Come on man! Even Cher's won an Oscar! Cher!

Undercover Brother: Then O.J. really didn't do it?

[Everyone kinds rolls their eyes and turns away mumbling]

:)

Point is when folks feel that their "side" has been done wrong they are more willing to accept the occasional wrong done by one of them. If I slap you five times nobody is going to object if you slap me back even though both of us are wrong to slap the other in the first place.

I don't want to speak for Black Americans but I suspect you're right in that the joy over OJ's acquittal had a lot more to do with a little retribution than belief in OJ's innocence.