Israel ..more rockets

[Armistead]

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-israel-military-operation-hamas-20140708-story.html

Reports/rumors four more explosions over Tel Aviv. ...This could turn into something big.....Will Israel invade Gaza in mass?

[Nippelspanner]

I don't care anymore to be honest. Let them kill each other off... sick of it. :shifty:

[Schroeder]

I don't care anymore to be honest. Let them kill each other off... sick of it. :shifty:
If it wasn't for a forum member here I would tend to agree. It seems to be going in circles and every few years it boils over into an open conflict. Nothing new here.:-?

[Betonov]

Israel should really rethink it's strategy.

All this en mass operations kill a few Hamas terrorists and make sure that there's ten new enraged recruits for every one they kill.

More like a politicians ego-trip than a sensible operation

[mapuc]

Is there a political solution to this problem ?

Markus

[Admiral Halsey]

Is there a political solution to this problem ?

Markus

They've been trying to find one for decades. I doubt they'll ever find one that makes everyone happy enough to stop fighting.

[Schroeder]

Is there a political solution to this problem ?

Markus
Forbidding religion would be a start....:-?
You never said it had to be a realistic solution.:/\\!!

[mapuc]

Forbidding religion would be a start....:-?
You never said it had to be a realistic solution.:/\\!!

First: I have been writing several answers and every one has been deleted

Two reason

1. I haven't got the slightest idea to how this problem is going to be solved

2. A wrong word og sentence could make another member mad
(I know this from every discussion on Facebook)

Markus

[Tribesman]

2. A wrong word og sentence could make another member mad

Markus
I think you will find they are probably mad anyway.

[Armistead]

First: I have been writing several answers and every one has been deleted

Two reason

1. I haven't got the slightest idea to how this problem is going to be solved

2. A wrong word og sentence could make another member mad
(I know this from every discussion on Facebook)

Markus

It will never be solved. If there's a solution it's fight until one side has no fight left, which hasn't worked, so I guess genocide may be the only answer.

Simply, it will continue

[Skybird]

Israel should really rethink it's strategy.

All this en mass operations kill a few Hamas terrorists and make sure that there's ten new enraged recruits for every one they kill.

More like a politicians ego-trip than a sensible operation
What are they left with to do. They have tried everything possible in the past 30 years. And always got terror in return, every single damn time. They play tough, and they get terror, they play soft, and then get terror, they negotiate and get terror, and they trade away own advantages and get terror, and occupied territory and got terror and they ended the occupation and got terror.

And Europe and the Islam-hijacked UN always telling them that they should try harder to please their enemies and not to "escalate things".

They could give up their country and voluntarily jump into the sea and swim away. But then they would have the well-meaning Europeans hanging at their throat again and chasing them around.

Israel has no "solutions". Only pragmatically managing survival from one year to the next - and resisting Western demands to negotiate the conditions of its self-destruction.

[mapuc]

What is the truth? we are bombarded with news from both side so no one can for sure say what is the real truth about this crisis.

A page had a link to this youtube video from BBC and it clearly show how the propaganda machine is running.(this is Palestine propaganda, Israel have theirs too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnO4gy8dQIc

[Skybird]

2. A wrong word og sentence could make another member mad

You censor yourself just not to upset somebody else? And do you ever ask yourself whether it is reasonable that the other may be upset about your thoughts?

Your opinion then can be easily suppressed. Not by debating it and questioning it and arguing about it - but by simply claiming to be offended by it. Religions for example, especially Islam, do it all the time that way.

The question you should ask yourself is not whether somebody might be offended by your thoughts - but whether it is worth it to you to accept the chance to get drawn into a conflict with people. If it is, then go for it, without taking prisoners. If you think that's too much heat for your taste, stay out of the kitchen.

[mapuc]

You censor yourself just not to upset somebody else? And do you ever ask yourself whether it is reasonable that the other may be upset about your thoughts?

Your opinion then can be easily suppressed. Not by debating it and questioning it and arguing about it - but by simply claiming to be offended by it. Religions for example, especially Islam, do it all the time that way.

The question you should ask yourself is not whether somebody might be offended by your thoughts - but whether it is worth it to you to accept the chance to get drawn into a conflict with people. If it is, then go for it, without taking prisoners. If you think that's too much heat for your taste, stay out of the kitchen.

No Skybird I think you misunderstood me. I'm not afraid of debating with and opponent.

How should I put it.........

How's your memory regarding former discussion about this Israel-Gaza problem
Thread got closed a few times
Some got brigged(can't remember who)
It could be that it is my memory that's "out of order"

This problem is a very infected and it even effect people here in Western Europe. Just see how people react on FB and Twitter

Markus

[Oberon]

In before Capitaine Occidental.

Really, the only way that a permanent solution to this situation is going to be achieved is through the direct threat of overwhelming force applied to both parties. Sort of a 'Share your toys or we'll take them away' approach.
Split the country into two equal parts, stick a shed load of SAMs and Anti-missile systems along both sides of the border and shove the Dome of the rock into neutral hands so that neither side controls it.

Violation of the agreement would result in instant overwhelming destruction.

Unfortunately since the only way the world has (at the moment) of enforcing said overwhelming destruction is through nuclear weaponry and Israel already has that, so any attempt to enforce it would result in an Israeli SLBM landing in the capital of whoever suggested it.

So all you can do is the same sort of thing the US is doing with school shootings, accept it, deal with the consequences of it, and move on. :hmmm:

[Armistead]

In before Capitaine Occidental.

Really, the only way that a permanent solution to this situation is going to be achieved is through the direct threat of overwhelming force applied to both parties. Sort of a 'Share your toys or we'll take them away' approach.
Split the country into two equal parts, stick a shed load of SAMs and Anti-missile systems along both sides of the border and shove the Dome of the rock into neutral hands so that neither side controls it.

Violation of the agreement would result in instant overwhelming destruction.

Unfortunately since the only way the world has (at the moment) of enforcing said overwhelming destruction is through nuclear weaponry and Israel already has that, so any attempt to enforce it would result in an Israeli SLBM landing in the capital of whoever suggested it.

So all you can do is the same sort of thing the US is doing with school shootings, accept it, deal with the consequences of it, and move on. :hmmm:

So to solve the issue of war, go into a WW to split the two in part, killing millions.....

I like it.

[Skybird]

Save me from this self-deception they call "two state solution", it is a still birth from all beginning on. Makes Western elites wallow in their self-righteous sentiments, yes, but is totally unrealistic and naive.

http://carolineglick.com/the-israeli-solution-2/

Currently a hotly debated book. I agree to its core thesis, however, and see that much of the criticism aiming to slander it is basing on the flawed assumptions and illusions Western and American ME policies are basing on since decades, having helped to turn things from bad to worse. Also, a fundamental misperception of the totalitarian nature and deep-rooting intolerance of Islam assists in propagating that there would be peace if there would be two states - that the Palestinian Arabs' establishment and much of the ordinary people do not really want at all - they want it all for themselves instead, and their claim concreted by the right of unlimited return of all "Palestinian Arabs" to Israeli territory from all over the world.

And they keep saying so until today.

Truth is the "Palestinians", both Hamas and PLO, do not want that two state solution and peace with Israel. They never wanted it. If they wnated it for real, they alreadey could have had it since one and a half decade or so. But they find violent esxcuses time and again to complain and excuse why they do not agree to it. For that would include to accept the right of Israel to exist - and that is what they will never agree to. Never.

Two sate solution. Tzzzz. I do not know which is the more serious symptom of serious mental derangement: the belief in a two state solution, or the belief in that there is a "peace process" that could be revived - or that it ever was there.

[Oberon]

So to solve the issue of war, go into a WW to split the two in part, killing millions.....

I like it.

Well, the beauty of it would be (if the conditions were met) that you would threaten the violence but hopefully not have to enact it. Once the solution (which no doubt some clever pundit would call the 'final' one :nope:) was in place and neither side could actually attack the other via missile or jet (artillery would still be a problem unless a wall of R2D2s could be built to intercept artillery shells) without crossing a DMZ (which would be littered with AT and AP mines and other friendly devices) without the worry of losing their capital city then they would make the most of the situation.
It's like children, if they can't share a toy, remove the toy.

But, like I said, not something that can happen since a) there's no overarching global organisation with the power to enforce such a rule and b) Israel would just nuke whoever tried back into the stone age. :03:

Don't mind me, even I, a center-left liberal can have my General Ripper moments. :03:


Two sate solution. Tzzzz. I do not know which is the more serious symptom of serious mental derangement: the belief in a two state solution, or the belief in that there is a "peace process" that could be revived - or that it ever was there.

Ja ja ja, as you always say, but like I said, the solution would be enforced at gunpoint, Hamas would accept it or they would be nuked, likewise Israel. The only solution that would get both parties agreement would be to threaten both parties with destruction, otherwise neither side is going to agree on anything, and since this 'solution' of mine is never going to happen then neither side are going to agree on anything, and thus there will never be peace in Israel. I think anyone could have told you this from 1948 onwards. ;)

[Skybird]

Last month, there was a summit of the African Union in Malabo - which only could start after the Islamic block got its will and all Jewish delegates had been removed from the assembly hall, else, so the Muslim threat, they would boycott it. Not only representatives of Israel had to leave - but delegates of African nationality who were Jewish, and American representatives who were Jews as well. Ban Ki Moon on behalf of the UN was there too. So this happened under the eyes of the wonderful UN.

This was not just some Islamic terror groups dictating their conditions with bombs and Kalashnikovs. This were Islamic government delegates enforcing this.

They do not even bear to have a Jewish neighbour at a table for some time. Most Muslim "migrants" in Europe say they do not want to have Jewish neighbours in their houses.

But a whole Jewish state...?

You want a solution enforced by superior firepower, Oberon. Okay, there it is, the one -state-solution Glick is about. Just give Israel the tools it needs for that. It is - BY FAR! - the most civilised and law-and-order based democratic country in the region. And the only one. In no Muslim state have Jews (or Christians) as equal and far-reaching legal rights, as Arabs/Muslims have in Israel - and I mean not only Arab states, but oh-so-Westernized Turkey and Indonesia as well. If one state is to be enforced, and by raw threat of annihilation, as you say, then let the most developed and civilised society in the region be the standard that this one state is based upon - Israel.

[Oberon]

Hey, we can both have our own solutions, two state for me, wipe Palestine off the map for you, neither of them stand a hope in hell of actually happening! :har:

[Tribesman]

Well it didn't take long before someone posted to an extremist nuts stuff.
Skybird beats Captain Occidental to the punch. :rotfl2:
One hates Muslims and sees muslim conspiracies everywhere, the other hates Jews and sees jewish conspiracies everywhere.
So really they are both the same in their views and "thought" process.:nope:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I'm really sick of this 'peace process', 'negotiation' and 'understanding' nonsense!

Call be heartless bastard if you want, but I would 'solve' this 'issue' by simply bombing Gaza until there is no one left to cause further 'issues'. Repeat in West Bank if required. :arrgh!:

[HunterICX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAomAwIwxm8

[Tribesman]

Call be heartless bastard if you want, but I would 'solve' this 'issue' by simply bombing Gaza until there is no one left to cause further 'issues'. Repeat in West Bank if required.
What a wonderful idea. Though of course you would have to extend that to bombing Jordan too to wipe out their population, then Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Turkey, Tunisia......
Seems to get a bit expensive.:hmmm:
It would be cheaper just to kill all the Israelis then go round the world rounding up all the jews for extermination.
Crazy stuff eh, but it shows your views up for exactly what they are:down:

[Jimbuna]

Is there a political solution to this problem ?

Markus

Highly unlikely.

[Catfish]

It seems responsability is not the strong part :hmmm: :-?



Foreign OfficeNovember 2nd, 1917


Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.


Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

"In the wake of the Declaration’s publication, most Zionists and their opponents assumed that the "national home" meant a Jewish state. There is, however, little proof that this was the British government’s intention. When the Cabinet agreed to issue the Declaration on October 31, 1917, they did not come to a conclusion as to what the national home, once established, would look like. This was because the government’s interest in Zionism was not focused on the movement’s future in Palestine. Rather, their principal goal was to use Zionism as a means of fostering pro-war propaganda in Russia and the U.S. - two key British allies in the struggle against Germany."
From: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/should-britain-apologize-for-the-balfour-declaration.premium-1.518145

For what i have read, Mr. Lettow-Vorbeck had also looked for a solution back then in 1914-18, though he thought a new Israel could be founded in Tansania, or Kenia, after the war. Seldom heard of ..

[Oberon]

Nah, the Zionist community (at the risk of sounding like Captaine Occidental) had a strong grip on western governments then, and to a large extent it still does, and they wanted to settle in their holy land. Even if the Balfour Declaration had not gone ahead, there would still have been mass Jewish immigration to Israel and eventually unrest between the Jewish settlers and the Palestinian Arabs, and so on and so forth.
Heck, the Balfour Declaration was less than what was wanted, stated that it would be 'A' home for the Jewish people rather than 'The' home, but like most bits of paper, the meaning can be stretched and then eventually outright ignored.

I still think the best overview of the situation is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

What a wonderful idea. Though of course you would have to extend that to bombing Jordan too to wipe out their population, then Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Turkey, Tunisia......
Seems to get a bit expensive.:hmmm:
It would be cheaper just to kill all the Israelis then go round the world rounding up all the jews for extermination.
Crazy stuff eh, but it shows your views up for exactly what they are:down:Yeah, I known. I'm just so tired of this merry-go-round of 'negotiations', intifadas and temper tantrums from both political sides... What if we just kicked everyone out and banned human life there? :hmmm: :nope:

[Oberon]

Yeah, I known. I'm just so tired of this merry-go-round of 'negotiations', intifadas and temper tantrums from both political sides... What if we just kicked everyone out and banned human life there? :hmmm: :nope:

Could turn it into the worlds largest nature reserve I suppose... :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

Yeah, I known. I'm just so tired of this merry-go-round of 'negotiations', intifadas and temper tantrums from both political sides... What if we just kicked everyone out and banned human life there? :hmmm: :nope:

No worries.
It boils down to two options, a merry go round of negotiations and temper tantrums, or genocide.
Only a complete nut would favour genocide, so that leaves the merry go round as the only option.
But sadly on both the Israeli and Arab sides there are plenty of nuts and their loony supporters who are crazy enough to really view genocide as the answer.

[eddie]

Don't have a real answer on how to solve this problem between Israel and Palestine, but the way they act is starting to remind me in a way of how North Korea acts. When NK thinks no one is paying attention to them, their government does something real stupid to get people to listen to their BS, With all the attention in the ME on Iraq and Syria, time for the Palestine -Israeli conflict to flair up so we focus on them again! Nothing but hissy fits being thrown about, just to be noticed by the world. But sadly these hissy fits are costing many their very lives!:nope:

[August]

... you would threaten the violence but hopefully not have to enact it.

Making threats without the will to back them up is worse than not making the threat at all. Kinda like Obama's ever shifting "red line".

[Oberon]

Making threats without the will to back them up is worse than not making the threat at all. Kinda like Obama's ever shifting "red line".

That's the kicker, and no doubt about it. Whoever did it would become one of the most hated people in history...but sometimes that's the price you have to pay. Of course, the threat can't even be made because of MAD so such plans are unrealistic. It's certainly a situation where Rods from God would have been a useful platform, but thankfully as far as we know, it hasn't been made or deployed...a nuclear scale explosion without the side effect of radiation, it would be all too tempting to use.

[Skybird]

I just skimmed over the German itnernet newspapers again, and noted - once again - the wonderful bias in there:

Europe and America warn Israel "not to escalate" events "any further".

What this formulation implies is that Israel started this latest round,m and that they were the first in escalating things. But they were not.

The murder of three Israeli teens was getting a brief notion in papers - combined with the warning that Israel should react by not really reacting.

When the revenge murder of an Arab boy took place, papers over here and the media reported it up and down and back and forth and in painful detail described what happened - while some of the authors doing so just day sago said one should not be reporting details about how the three Israeli teens got murdered, it "might fuse emotions" that are not wanted. And the crowds during the funeral of the Arab boy all got full coverage by media, and the mass outcry got delivered for free into every household - but on the families of those three Israeli teens murdered: almost no word.

The beginning of rocket attacks by Arab terrorists in Gaza firing without discrimination, was reported with lazy delay only - it started already before the first Israeli air strikes. When Israel mobilized forces and started to run air strikes against Hamas observation and command posts and houses of known Hamas activists, the media was immediately on it, angry about those aggressive Israeli "escalating" things. How dare they...? Don'T they know there is a peace process running?
Hamas has lost popularity in Gaza, and is short on money as well, so they run a cynical strategy of causing Israel to kill Hamas and non-Hamas people alike - and by that hopefully rallying the people behind them again. But the media over here all in all do not say that. And while Israel targets Hamas targets and does what it can do avoid targetting purely civilian targets, Hamas rockets get fired into civilian areas without discrimination and try to kill civilian targets and cause the death of civilians as much as possible, and try to lure Israeli fire on civilian Arab targets as well to win in the propaganda war by placing once again military targets on top of civilian structures.

But Europe and America think they must warn Israel not to escalate things.

Maybe Israel was even guilty for those three teens being murdered? Oh wait, the German left feuilleton has implied right that repeatedly in past days. Those damn Israelis just get what thy deserve for being there, you see, why don't they just disappear somehow and stop trying to find and kill those responsible for the start of the rocket bombardement? Much media coverage on arrests in case of the Arab boy who gut murdered - arrested by Israeli police. Where is the media pressure on Hamas and the Palestinian Arabs to arrest the murderers of the three Israeli teens?

Once again in history, only Jews dying silently and without fighting back, are considered good Jews. Why the noise, dman Jew? It'S just three little Israeli pigs who got sent to their forefathers. Not worth to disrupt the precious peace process over such a minor nuisance, don't you think?

[August]

That's the kicker, and no doubt about it. Whoever did it would become one of the most hated people in history...but sometimes that's the price you have to pay. Of course, the threat can't even be made because of MAD so such plans are unrealistic. It's certainly a situation where Rods from God would have been a useful platform, but thankfully as far as we know, it hasn't been made or deployed...a nuclear scale explosion without the side effect of radiation, it would be all too tempting to use.

Well the Israelis may indeed have nuclear weapons but I seriously doubt that they have enough war heads to achieve mutually assured destruction with any other nuclear power let alone deliver them outside of the region.

[Oberon]

Well the Israelis may indeed have nuclear weapons but I seriously doubt that they have enough war heads to achieve mutually assured destruction with any other nuclear power let alone deliver them outside of the region.

They have the Jericho III, an ICBM with a range of at least 3,000 to 7,000 miles. More than capable of reaching most of the other nuclear states of the world. There are also submarine launched cruise missiles with nuclear warheads at their disposal.

Would any western nation really be willing to sacrifice their cities for a policy? I don't think so, not even if any western power could turn the whole of Israel into glass, losing a major city would be too high a cost for them to gamble with, and that's exactly what Israel was counting on when it made its nuclear program. If Israel was to be destroyed, it would take as many nations with it as it could, friend and foe alike, that was the threat, as Moshe Dayan put it 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.'

[mapuc]

You know what, well I guess you know it, I'll tell you anyway

There's about 1-2 % radical on each side which are responsible for this. the rest have no problem living side by side.

I wish the Jews and the Muslim could kick these religious radical to....

Markus

[mapuc]

There's enough of fanatical religious people down there, they don't need fanatical people from europe to "support this fire of evil"

What they need is some one or somebody to keep his or her head moderate and find a solution.

Markus

[Skybird]

You know what, well I guess you know it, I'll tell you anyway

There's about 1-2 % radical on each side which are responsible for this. the rest have no problem living side by side.

I wish the Jews and the Muslim could kick these religious radical to....

Markus

Its more on each side, and it isMuch more on Muslim side. And not just there. You see strong racism amongst Muslim migrants across all of Europe. In many regions they form not just a group, but the majority. Malmo, just one of the more prominent examples. Marsseille. Cologne, Rotterdam...

[Alex]

Once again in history, only Jews dying silently and without fighting back, are considered good Jews.
If they ever were fair representatives of the jewish community, like respectful pious people believing in their god and doing what He told them to do in their own sacred writings, that state would just not exist these days, since that community is just not allowed to get its own land. They just need to live all over the world in all countries.

Take a look at the government members from that "country".
Doing what they do in that area since too much time now, and since a so-called Semite looks that way (http://www.palestine-solidarite.org/israel_shamir2.jpg), one could easily say that bunch of Khazars from eastern Europe - who already have many nationalities administratively - who are at the top in that little state are the real anti-Semites when they bomb the locals, and kind of want their own people to go through what they're going through where they want them to stay these days, while every single rocket from the natives-ethnic Semites can be seen as... Well, kind of a true love declaration for that soil that is, well, theirs.

[Skybird]

I still have not decided whether I should take your comment as sarcasm - or for the antisemite hate that it sounds like.

---

Meanwhile, Hamas has found ways to turn Israeli housedoor-knocking procedure around.

By that is meant that the Israelis are aware that the more civilians get killed, the more gloobal opiuons turns against them. So they give telephone calls before they bomb a house of a Hamas commander. Next a drone fires a dud missiles that slams into the roof, but does not explode. By that time, all people living there already are out. And then comes the real missiles, turning the house and the often stockpiled Hamas supplies and ammo into rubble.

Hamas now reacts to such warning to prevent civilian casualties by sending in civilians as human shields, as they call it. The real calculation of course is to create a higher body count. Because, as said, the more dead bodies, the more global opinion swinging against Israel.

During the Lebanon war 2006, Hezollah held villagers at gunpoint inside target areas, to have them getting killed by Israeli fire. It is common practice in that region, it seems.

German:

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-07/hamas-israel-gaza-angriffe-menschliche-schutzschilde

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-07/gaza-israel-bombardierung

Israel accepts to not kill Hamas activists and commanders by door-knocking, but it destroys the equipment and punishes these rat-people by destroying their house and possessions. Hamas - does what it can to get its own people killed in as huge numbers as possible. For propaganda.

A difference that, like always, gets almost no attention in Western media.

In past days, there have been several incidents, where people did not flee houses that got warnings, but brought their children onto the roofs, and invited neighbours to join them. Hamas has piublicly warned the civilian population that they should not leave their houses when getting a warning by the Israeli army, but to stay, and have implied threats to those who would leave.

[NeonSamurai]

Nah, the Zionist community (at the risk of sounding like Captaine Occidental) had a strong grip on western governments then, and to a large extent it still does, and they wanted to settle in their holy land. Even if the Balfour Declaration had not gone ahead, there would still have been mass Jewish immigration to Israel and eventually unrest between the Jewish settlers and the Palestinian Arabs, and so on and so forth.
Heck, the Balfour Declaration was less than what was wanted, stated that it would be 'A' home for the Jewish people rather than 'The' home, but like most bits of paper, the meaning can be stretched and then eventually outright ignored.

No. The jews never had a "strong grip" on Europe or anywhere else. The only reason why England would go along with Zionism was because the idea was that a new Israel would mean that all the verminous Jews would finally leave England. Europe supported Zionism out of their own hatred of Jewish people, a hate that is still very much prevalent today (as demonstrated by the frequently biased media).

If Jewish people had such a strong grip on Europe, why did countless countries turn away Jewish refugees at the start of WW2?

[Alex]

I still have not decided whether I should take your comment as sarcasm - or for the antisemite hate that it sounds like.

---
Ask the Naturei Karta crew what they think about that. ;)

Hamas - does what it can to get its own people killed in as huge numbers as possible. For propaganda.

A difference that, like always, gets almost no attention in Western media.
Historical tensions between the Gaza strip and Israel have taken a dramatic turn this week, it looks like a big conflict just started on monday.
3 young israeli boys were found dead last week. And at this stage, air operations launched by israeli pm BN against Hamas caused 82 deaths on the Palestinian side so far, since last Sunday.

82 deaths on one side, 3 on the other. That means 27,33 deaths for a single one.
We must remember that the Naziiiiiiiis "executed" 10 hostages for one german soldier killed, and executed 3 hostages for one german soldier wounded. Here, we have pretty much a ratio 3 times greater than those bloody ******* Naziiiis. It just goes to show that the more Naziiiiiiiis may well not be WW2 Germany any more.

That propensity to copy certain behaviours they just don't stop criticizing on the other hand is just crazy.
Imagine that 82 random people in the West got killed (I'm not speaking about any religious community there). A war would be unleashed immediately. But here it's only 82 Palestinians, it's quite normal you know, everyone knows it's part of the Z mass extermination plan of the Palestinians. That is why it's just forbidden to be an anti-zionist in the West, being anti-zionist means recognizing the plan of extermination of the Palestinians looking pretty much like another one.

[Sailor Steve]

82 deaths on one side, 3 on the other. That means 27,33 deaths for a single one.
I notice you mention the 3 boys but manage to leave out the real reason for the airstrikes - 40 rockets fired into Israeli cities. That they couldn't manage to kill any Israelis was pure chance, and not for want of trying. Your diatribe comparing the Israelis to the Nazis seems to have no basis in actual fact; if Israel really wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they could do a lot more damage than they have. I also notice you make no mention of the ongoing fight between Hamas and Fatah. Your bias is showing.

[Oberon]

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/31414660.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Based on televised events and news reports the Israelis say they will ignore international pressure put on them with the intention of stopping the air raids.

Iron Dome has and continues to perform very well at reducing the amount of rockets that hit a target indiscriminately or otherwise.

One solution which I know has been tried and failed many times in the past would be to agree a ceasefire.

Have said ceasefire monitored by all the technology, satellite etc. available and any violation result in an appropriate response from the international community in whatever form deemed effective.

As things stand now, the Israelis have little choice other than to react militarily whilst so much ordnance is being fired into their territory.

I doubt there are many if any members of this community who wouldn't want their armed forces to react in a similar way if it was their homeland that was being attacked repeatedly on a daily basis.

[Oberon]

It's Catch-22 for Israel really, in the long run they are only isolating themselves further, and for a nation that's surrounded by potential enemies, isolation is a dangerous thing.

Obviously even with Iron Dome, the more rockets launched from Gaza, the more pressure there is on the Israeli government to retaliate, and then when they do retaliate, it invariably causes more casualties for the Palestinians than there is for the Israelis because of the vast difference in civil defence preparation (and indeed, in some instances human shields are encouraged by nefarious militants, or their missile sites are deliberately positioned to create maximum collateral damage) so no matter what Israel does, they lose.
I'm not entirely convinced that the trigger for all this, the death of those three Israeli soldiers, was related to Hamas though, it just seemed very rushed, no real investigation before Netanyahu opened his mouth and blamed Hamas. :hmmm:

Still, nothing is going to change, this will be the status quo for decades to come. C'est la guerre.

[Catfish]

The real bad thind and problem to solve is, that nowadays all use civilians to hide and mask, using them as a shield and thus taking them as hostages.

Along that way there will always be civilian deaths, and the outcry of the "civilized" world against (unwillful) killing and collateral damage, which again supports the terrorists saying "see what the tyrants do to our poor folks".

We are a bit concerned though, if survelillance is that thorough and exact, why not send one or two trained man to solve the situation by force in a surgical strike ? I mean this is where we should have the advantage if what the secret services tell us are right. Right ?

Raining bombs on civilians will never improve the situation, not even in "righteous" retaliation.

[Schroeder]

Have said ceasefire monitored by all the technology, satellite etc. available and any violation result in an appropriate response from the international community in whatever form deemed effective.

And right there is already the part that buries the idea. No one would react to rockets from Gaza. Hamas would just claim some independent idiots launched them and the rest of the world would hold back a retaliation strike.


I'm not entirely convinced that the trigger for all this, the death of those three Israeli soldiers, was related to Hamas though, it just seemed very rushed, no real investigation before Netanyahu opened his mouth and blamed Hamas. :hmmm:

You keep referring to them as soldiers but they were just students from what I've heard.

[Tribesman]

I doubt there are many if any members of this community who wouldn't want their armed forces to react in a similar way if it was their homeland that was being attacked repeatedly on a daily basis.
I certainly wouldn't want the military to react in a similar way, simply because it doesn't work.

If it worked it would be different, but it doesn't which has been proved again and again, all it does is just pours money down the drain.

[Oberon]

You keep referring to them as soldiers but they were just students from what I've heard.

:o:doh:

Where the heck did I get the idea that they were soldiers from?

Thanks for the correction. :yep:

[Skybird]

The real bad thind and problem to solve is, that nowadays all use civilians to hide and mask, using them as a shield and thus taking them as hostages.


"all"...?

It is very clear which side in the current conflict does so, and which side does not.

[Skybird]

I notice you mention the 3 boys but manage to leave out the real reason for the airstrikes - 40 rockets fired into Israeli cities.
I said something like that already earlier, and he did not consider it. I do not assume he will now that you are repeating it, because...

... Your bias is showing.After all he has recommended with the greatest naturalness that Jews should be scattered across all the globe again. It does not need any more writings on the wall to understand what spirit's child he is. His argument compares to something like saying that all Americans are racist because there is the KKK.

Dangerous mindset he has.

[August]

I said something like that already earlier, and he did not consider it. I do not assume he will now that you are repeating it, because...

After all he has recommended with the greatest naturalness that Jews should be scattered across all the globe again. It does not need any more writings on the wall to understand what spirit's child he is. His argument compares to something like saying that all Americans are racist because there is the KKK.

Dangerous mindset he has.

Yep. That's my take as well.

[Alex]

:o:doh:

Where the heck did I get the idea that they were soldiers from?
You are forgiven, it just helps a lot to consider them as soldiers, it makes the Z reaction look fair and righteous.

Your diatribe comparing the Israelis to the Nazis seems to have no basis in actual fact
Just take a look at the deaths ratio in 2008 following the Cast Lead operation. I don't need to say more.

I notice you mention the 3 boys but manage to leave out the real reason for the airstrikes - 40 rockets fired into Israeli cities. That they couldn't manage to kill any Israelis was pure chance, and not for want of trying.

Your diatribe comparing the Israelis to the Nazis seems to have no basis in actual fact; if Israel really wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they could do a lot more damage than they have.
Weeks ago, tons of people (mostly media, politics, showbiz people) have been expressing mass concern, pretty much everyone was feeling moved by the fate of the poor crimean people. :cry: :mad:
Right now, some no less serious events are happening on the international stage somewhere else in the world, and it happens that news related to that poor Middle East area just don't move western people that much, Hell knows why - do I need to remind anyone of how much Arabs own the media. The number of wounded Palestinians has now increased to more than 900 persons, and the number of deaths has now increased to at least 122.
So what ? "You're showing a bias man, be sure that if Israel wanted to go crazy, they just could go the way we US of A did when we used our deadly industrial potential all over the world when we wanted to, from Dresden to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not to forget the dropping of 7 million tons of bombs on North Vietnam - i.e. twice the amount of bombs we dropped on all fronts in WW2 - nor the deployment of the shock and awe doctrine intended to put to death Saddam Hussein's Irak in 2003... And the greatest thing is that whatever you'll say, the Anglo-Saxon military never feeling satisfied only with spreading death all over the world, will also enjoy that single ultimate enviable privilege to write History its own way".
Well, yes, I know, don't worry.

But what's got to spark things off recently :hmm2: ? According to the media, it's indeed the murder of those 3 boys - and also the constant firing of handmade (retaliatory) rockets into israeli territory... May I ask you what the hell do you expect from the Palestinians :hmmm: ? Would you like them to turn the other cheek ? Since some time now they're living under occupation, they are colonised, and what do you want them to do ? Yesterday I was listening to the radio, and I heard that Hollande guy asserting his full solidarity with that state following that news related to rockets - it goes without saying that we all blame the Palestinians for launching that stuff, of course - but God, those guys live under occupation, damn, do you want them not to defend themselves :hmm2: ? Do you mean they're not even supposed to fight for their country, nor to dare defending themselves ? Do you mean Palestinians just have to be considered as animals ? What do you want them to do, seriously, they're living locked up behind a 7 meters high wall if I remember correctly, they got their land stolen, they get their water stolen too, and since years they get less and less land... When I think about that personally I can't stop from asking myself where the **** do I live ? In which country do I live when I see that so-called president asserting his full solidarity with a so-called state colonising a country more and more ? This is an extremely serious matter to more and more people everyday - thankfully -, just not everywhere in the world apparently.

I met with a few more jewish people in the meantime myself. Unexpectedly, while most of us tend to remain discreet (or to keep our mouth shut) when talking about that state and that religion looking much more like a political project as time passes (the anti! insult indeed serves as the magic formula to be shouted everywhere all the time for everybody never to dare blaming that single little objectionable project in the ME), the good thing with enlightened jewish people is they just have no reason to be afraid when it comes to criticizing that state, and some people who went there basically told me that a state where attacks against coloured persons are openly organized, and where white phosphorus bombs get dropped on children just can't be considered as a democracy, but only as a colonial project where you can find religious extremists and terrorists. And it just hurts a lot when you hear this kind of thing coming from the mouth of people suffering in their flesh when they say this kind of thing.

I don't know about the situation in other countries, but in here, certainly not all, but more and more people from that religious community just don't support any more what's taking place there, and feel tired of being considered as an independent entity forced to put up with the national community staring at them with contempt following what's taking place now and then in the Middle East, and I understand them very well.

I also notice you make no mention of the ongoing fight between Hamas and Fatah. Your bias is showing.

Well...
As an afterthought, I'd say you may well be right, Steve, I may have a bias in the end. :hmm2:
Shaped by the culture and History of the country I live in, I'd say I may feel close from those living under occupation whom I tend to consider as blood brothers. And what the hell can I say about that ? Well, I am who I am, my whole family suffered from german occupation, and part of it suffered allied bombings. So I'd say I can't avoid to feel a bit close from certain people living under occupation too.

On the contrary, much people from your country tend to show clearly how much they're willing to work hand in hand with that imperialist project born from british puritanical ideology, the worst imperialism known to this day. That little state pretty much serves as the US colonial outpost in the Middle East, and I need to say I've always been disturbed over the years - since I read news related to that stuff, at least - by the murderous policy of the Z state, and the constant harassment of Iran by those 2 heinous cunning states the US of A and Israel are, since Iran got back on its feet and regained its sovereignty. To the US, pretty much nothing is as exciting as burying sovereignist attempts of a nation, Cuba's paying the price since decades.

And to think that the US of A are supposed to embody the country of freedom, ah, là là...

[MH]

Ooopps Alex has opened the books.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, yes, I know, don't worry.
Everything you say about various modern nations, including the USA, is based in truth. I've never said otherwise. I went to Vietnam not knowing anything about it, and came back convinced we were wrong to be there. On the other hand everything you say about Dresden and Hiroshima, while arguable both ways, has little relevance here.

When I say "bias", I'm referring to the observed fact that you only discuss the issue from one side, and it's always the same side. None of the arguments that others have made here concerning the goals and methods of groups like Hamas and Fatah ever enter into your posts.

But what's got to spark things off recently :hmm2: ? According to the media, it's indeed the murder of those 3 boys - and also the constant firing of handmade (retaliatory) rockets into israeli territory... May I ask you what the hell do you expect from the Palestinians :hmmm: ?
"According to the media..."
Prior to 1967 the Palestinians were occupied, and no one ever said anything. Why? Because it was other Arab states doing the occupying, and no one cared. The furor didn't start until it was Israel doing the occupying. May I ask you exactly what you think sparked it off in the first place?

These rocket attacks seem to come no matter what Israel does. I think Oberon's Post #51 says it best.

[mapuc]

There's something I can't understand and it is

Do HAMAS fire these rockets and mortar against Israel because:

1. they are being treated badly by Israel and their politics against them

2. They hate jews and everything about jews

3 Or a combination of nr 1 and 2


Markus

[Skybird]

Both reasons, mapuc, they simply do not care for slaughtering human life, their methods are terror methods. Though Israel has reaosns to treat them badly, as you pout it. They are terrorists, mass murderers, and assassins. And military enemies as well.

It is also political cynism, Hamas is are said to run lower on public support and money currently than in recent years, and so provoked an Israeli military intervention so to unite the Arab population in Gaza behind Hamas again. It is a very cynical calculation, but probably pays off sufficiently - as always. And where it would not - brute force against their own people Hamas is not shy to use, too.

Also, neither Hamas nor PLO do accept the Israeli state to exist. Hamas dreams of destroying Israel by force, PLO dreams of destroying Israel with overwhelming birthrates and the right of unlimited "return" of Palestinian Arabs to Israel from all the world.

where it can lead to when a critical mass of rioters has been reached in a state, oyu have seen during the socalled "Arab Spring". Israel is planned by the Palestinian Arabs to suffer the same fate. That'S why they do not give up that demand for sending as many Arabs into Israel as they claim to be Palestinian.

And the term Palestinian already is a critical problem in itself... The bigger part of socalled Palestinians are simpy Arabs with roots of their past two generations in many different countries, that travelled to "Palestine". The term "Palestinian" however should include Chris6zians and Jews as well, since the original population of "Palestine" was mixed for sure. In the end, the Arab melange living in the Gaza strip and the Westjordan do not want to coexist with a Jewish state, but want it all for themselves. especially the control of Jerusalem is an issue. Islam originally has no claim for it, but conquered it militarily. Problem is that Islamic ideology claims that any spoil that ever was under Islamic control, remains to be Islamic for all time to come, and must be reconquered if it gets lost.

Personally, I think Jerusalem should be completely destroyed and turned into a giant hole in the ground, especially all three religions' shrines there. Chase all people there ozut ofd it, no matter who they are, and then nuke that hellhole that three insane religions claim to be so holy. It's a foul, rotting wound in mankind's body since long, a cancer tumor that is constantly producing and spreading new metastases, the reason for war aftr war after war after war. As long as there is Jerusalem - the excuse for so much hate and rage, irrationality and delusion - there never will even be a chance for lasting peace at least in "Palestine". Never.

[mapuc]

Thank you for your reply

When I wrote

"1. they are being treated badly by Israel and their politics against them"

I meant the Palestine in general not just HAMAS but the ordinary citizen of Gaza.

"They are violating almost every Geneva-convention there is"

Said by a Danish Politician on the Danish newchannel TV2NEWS last time there were trouble in that area(2012 if I'm not wrong)

He was talking about HAMAS and the way they waged war on Israel

He also said(among many other Danish politician) Israel has every right to defend itself.

Markus

[Skybird]

The way Israel treats and behaves towards the Gaza strip and Westjordan ist the result of the terror they are getting from the Palestinian Arabs time and again, and bases on military considerations. Israel often got and gets accused of breaking international law and treaties, with the way the handled the Turkish ships some years ago for example, or their blockade of the Gaza strip which they enforce, or that they build new houses in Jerusalem. But when you do some deeper digging on such stories you often find out that Israel acts within limits of said international laws and treaties. For example they HAD TO enforce the blockade and prevent the Turkish ships getting through at all costs, because international law rates their blockade as fully legal - but also says that just a simple blockade runner getting through nullifies any blockade and said blockade then is considered to be neutralized. That was usually not said in our wonderful media - but is the reason why the Turks even send those vessels. Also, most of the time when Israel announces to build new houses in disputed Jerusalem areas, our media do not report that most of the time these houses are planned in areas that according to the often referred to treaty drafts that were laid down in the past and that Israel was willing to accept as basis for a two state solution but the PLO delayed and finally abandoned, would fall to Israel anyway.

On the other hand, said treaties outlined a panther's fur-style of landmap that turned any Palestinian state into many isolated small local areas with security corridors between them that Israel claims for wanting to have a military eye on anything that is happening and could turn out to be a thread. That is one of the reaosns why I think that plan was totally idiotic from all beg9ionning on: such a state is not able to live. The Israeli claims can be understood, their experiences with the Palestinian arabs are extremnel ybad, thy have all reason not to assume that a two state solution would not give them peace, and how small and tiny the Israeli state is you see these days when learning how much of its territory already can be covered by missiles from Gaza strip - and the real big missiles Hamas now has have not even been fired so far.

Its all bogged down down there. No solution, no realistic escape. They are doomed to continue with how it is now. To me such a situation is one possible definition of "hell". From a purely strategical POV, Israel is in so much an exposed position that it cannot survive in the long run. Israeli military historian van Crefeld said the same - and since then is hated even more in Israel. But it is plain reason and cold-blooded sense of realism to conclude that - he just dared to speak it out. The only thing Israel can do is what in German tactics is called "kämpfend verzögern" (delaying by fighting). Holding the position forever it probably cannot. Talking about a perspective of several decades, not just some years.

[Tribesman]

"According to the media..."
Prior to 1967 the Palestinians were occupied, and no one ever said anything. Why? Because it was other Arab states doing the occupying, and no one cared. The furor didn't start until it was Israel doing the occupying. May I ask you exactly what you think sparked it off in the first place?

Rubbish, complete and utter twaddle.:down:

[Sailor Steve]

Rubbish, complete and utter twaddle.:down:
So, do you have anything to offer besides naked diatribe?

[Tribesman]

So, do you have anything to offer besides naked diatribe?

Lets do maths.
Using the fingers on one hand count the number of countries that supported Jordans annexation.
Now using a calculator count the number of countries that opposed it.
Its a bit more complicated with Egypt, some opposing countries changed their mind over time as did some supporting countries.

Or lets do it another way....
Prior to 1967 the Palestinians were occupied...yes.
and no one ever said anything......errrrrr, no.
Why?... hold on that was a no.
Because...you have to deal with the no first because your because makes no sense as it is built on a foundation that is wrong.
The furor didn't start until .....if you get it wrong you can't get a start point, start again.
May I ask you exactly what you think sparked it off in the first place? ..... Sparked what off? your foundations are wobbly, rip it up and start again, then you can ask.

[Armistead]

Let's keep in mind the PA rejected a two state solution in 47/48. The PA still rejects Israels right to exist.

Also, let's be realistic. If all the Jews left Israel and gave the land to the PA, what would happen? It wouldn't be long that factional fighting would take over and the area would turn into another crap hole of civil war, power struggles, ending up another Muslim dysfunctional state. The common people would suffer 10 times worse than they do now...

[Tribesman]

Let's keep in mind the PA rejected a two state solution in 47/48.
The PA didn't exist then.
Plus of course as someone previously posted "it being clearly understood".:yep:

The PA still rejects Israels right to exist.

How many years are you behind the times?

[vanjast]

Also, let's be realistic. If all the Jews left Israel and gave the land to the PA, what would happen? It wouldn't be long that factional fighting would take over and the area would turn into another crap hole of civil war, power struggles, ending up another Muslim dysfunctional state. The common people would suffer 10 times worse than they do now...

You're probably right.. look at Africa, as soon as the 'common enemy' moved out, they turned and slaughtered each other, past present and future.
:03:

[Catfish]

You're probably right.. look at Africa, as soon as the 'common enemy' moved out, they turned and slaughtered each other, past present and future.

Of course the people there have our leaders of back then, as glorious examples. And so christian.

Just think of the Belgian king and the "Butcher of the Kongo".
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx2Sj1fhSso


Back on topic - what should Israel do, and what can the rest of the world do or help to solve the middle east problem ?

[Catfish]

"all"...?
It is very clear which side in the current conflict does so, and which side does not.

I thought it was pretty clear whom i meant. :yep:

[Armistead]

The PA didn't exist then.
Plus of course as someone previously posted "it being clearly understood".:yep:


How many years are you behind the times?

Fair enough, the Arab nationalist in Palestine.....basically the same thing, the leaders of the Arabs then....


They don't, their leaders still preach it and educate the kids that way... A few years old, but I think a fair and honest report.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2679/gingrich-palestinian-authority-pmw

[August]

There's something I can't understand and it is

Do HAMAS fire these rockets and mortar against Israel because:

1. they are being treated badly by Israel and their politics against them

2. They hate jews and everything about jews

3 Or a combination of nr 1 and 2


Markus

4. All of the above and how it provokes a military response from Israel. It's why Hamas shoot these missiles from populated areas. They want to maximize the civilian body count because it gets a lot of foreign sympathy and support.

There's a lot of truth to this bit of Israeli propaganda:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/israel_palestine_cartoon.gif

[CaptainMattJ.]

4. All of the above and how it provokes a military response from Israel. It's why Hamas shoot these missiles from populated areas. They want to maximize the civilian body count because it gets a lot of foreign sympathy and support.

There's a lot of truth to this bit of Israeli propaganda:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/israel_palestine_cartoon.gif
Summed up nicely. Quite frankly Israel is tired of everything. They've tried diplomacy, they've tried doing nothing, they've tried going on the offensive, they've tried being defensive, they've tried just about every feasible political action for peace and practically every time its the palestinians and other arab countries who provoke and attack Israel. Israel, in my opinion, is finally doing it right. They're not going to take this anymore. They arent going to sit idly by while the horribly antisemitic arab nations surrounding it plot its utter annihilation, firing hundreds of dumb rockets indiscriminately into Israel. I mean, if i were jewish, i would be fighting for every inch of Israel. How can anyone say that countries like bosnia and the various baltic ethnic groups deserve their own countries but Jews dont. After the thousands of years of horrible persecution, oppression, pure disgust, intolerance, and worst of all, systematic genocide of jews, i think they absolutely deserve not only their own land but every single right to defend it. Its the only haven the Jews own that protects them from the hatred shown to them in every corner of the world. The holocaust only happened 75 years ago. There is zero guarantee that something like that couldnt happen again, even today, and Jews deserve a place where they can assure their own survival and not hope that the country they live in wont turn on them.

[Sailor Steve]

Lets do maths.
Using the fingers on one hand count the number of countries that supported Jordans annexation.
Now using a calculator count the number of countries that opposed it.
Its a bit more complicated with Egypt, some opposing countries changed their mind over time as did some supporting countries.
Fair enough. Can you show me?

[mapuc]

What IS the truth about Palestine and Israel

Due to my lack of what to believe I try not to take side in this ongoing battle. I'm only criticizing HAMAS because their way of fighting Israel. No military-ordinary or whatever would fight the way HAMAS do, not if they had any self respect

I have friends posting lots and lots of link to pages saying why Palestine is not this or that

I also have friend who have posted lots and lots of link saying that Palestine is indeed this and that

I have absolutly no problem admitting my lack of knowledge regarding this issue.

Markus

[Tribesman]

Fair enough, the Arab nationalist in Palestine.....basically the same thing, the leaders of the Arabs then....




Lots of different leaders, all wanting lots of different things


They don't, their leaders still preach it and educate the kids that way... A few years old, but I think a fair and honest report.

honest and fair? Itmar writing a piece defending a piece by Itmar?
That's quite funny, so for balance, Palestine glorifies terrorists, it names institutions after them, it teaches people how good they are and how noble their struggle is.
So.......
How many Israeli institutions are named after terrorists?
I am sure the occasional child still dabbles in philately I wonder how many collected the issue of Isreali terrorist stamps which honoured their struggle.
The state has a national terrorist day.
It has a specific medal for issue to members of terrorist organisations, that's a noble honour isn't it.

So two sides of the same coin isn't it.:yep:

Then onto right to exist within its claimed "borders", quite clear there, annexation of land through force is illegal, therefore there is no right, so the text is accurate.
OK the legitimacy of the entire enterprise...principle founding document which set everything in motion...."it being clearly understood"..... pretty definitive isn't it.
If something doesn't comply with the foundations for its creation then the resulting creation lacks legitimacy.
So the textbooks are factually correct, why is Itmar complaining that textbooks are factually correct?:hmmm:

[Oberon]

The thing I ponder is that in this age of LG missiles why smaller caliber weaponry to reduce collateral damage cannot be deployed by Israel.
The problem Israel faces is that the more they bomb, the more world opinion turns against them, but if they dont retaliate then the hawk lobby of the Israeli government will tear the leadership apart.
Bombing really will not work, there's rumours of a ground offensive being planned by the Israeli military. That might set the Hamas missile program back a few months but it won't stop it.

So, really, all that will happen here is what has happened before and what will happen again. Israel will bomb until it is satisfied and then it will stop, regardless of international opinion or casualties. Then there will be an uneasy peace punctuated by rocket launches from both sides until the next time. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

[August]

The thing I ponder is that in this age of LG missiles why smaller caliber weaponry to reduce collateral damage cannot be deployed by Israel.
The problem Israel faces is that the more they bomb, the more world opinion turns against them, but if they dont retaliate then the hawk lobby of the Israeli government will tear the leadership apart.
Bombing really will not work, there's rumours of a ground offensive being planned by the Israeli military. That might set the Hamas missile program back a few months but it won't stop it.

So, really, all that will happen here is what has happened before and what will happen again. Israel will bomb until it is satisfied and then it will stop, regardless of international opinion or casualties. Then there will be an uneasy peace punctuated by rocket launches from both sides until the next time. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

I don't know how effective efforts to reduce collateral damage can be when the other side is trying to maximize it. Aren't the Israelis already using guided munitions to target launching sites?

[Tribesman]

So, really, all that will happen here is what has happened before and what will happen again. Israel will bomb until it is satisfied and then it will stop, regardless of international opinion or casualties. Then there will be an uneasy peace punctuated by rocket launches from both sides until the next time. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.
There's the thing, I could understand people being supportative of the action if it worked.
But it has been proved again and again to not work.

[Armistead]

I don't know how effective efforts to reduce collateral damage can be when the other side is trying to maximize it. Aren't the Israelis already using guided munitions to target launching sites?


For the most part and they launch dummy warheads first for many targets as a warning to clear the area. Hamas knows firing missiles from civilian homes means they will get bombed, they they can scream how Israel kills civilians. It seems many think Israel should go hide in their bunkers and do nothing but get bombed.

Anyone that thinks Hamas is a legit group with legit concerns is foolish.

[Tribesman]

Anyone that thinks Hamas is a legit group with legit concerns is foolish.
They do have legitimate concerns.
With the eruption of the proxy Iran/Saudi conflicts around the middle east they are seriously concerned about their funding.

[Armistead]

They do have legitimate concerns.
With the eruption of the proxy Iran/Saudi conflicts around the middle east they are seriously concerned about their funding.


Hehe...agree gain

[MH]

.... but if they dont retaliate then the hawk lobby of the Israeli government will tear the leadership apart.


It is not about hawk lobby.
If it was up to the hawk lobby we would have D9s and tanks running through Gaza.
...and retaliating works better than doing nothing , you people really don't get it.
Any way... clever ideas are welcome....

[Tribesman]

It is not about hawk lobby.
If it was up to the hawk lobby we would have D9s and tanks running through Gaza.
...and retaliating feels better than doing nothing , you people really don't get it.
Any way... clever ideas are welcome....
Fixed that for ya.

As for running bulldozers and tanks through Gaza, they tried that, it didn't work.

[vanjast]

Of course the people there have our leaders of back then, as glorious examples. And so christian.
Just think of the Belgian king and the "Butcher of the Kongo".
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx2Sj1fhSso

To balance things out :03:
http://history1900s.about.com/od/rwandangenocide/a/Rwanda-Genocide.htm
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/people_shaka_zulu.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/837660/posts

You see, one doesn't need the colonials for mass murder in africa, or elsewhere.. the people will do it to themselves if they don't find some for of stable 'government', and this is the trick..so to speak.
Currently everyone seems intent on senselessly blotting everyone else off the planet - kinda stupid really!

[MH]

Fixed that for ya.

As for running bulldozers and tanks through Gaza, they tried that, it didn't work.

lol hi yes you are very clever but....

... you still owe me a links that work.

(...but that probably will not work either.:haha:)

[Tribesman]

... you still owe me a links that work.

Do the IDF links not work? how about the Knesset ones? Yale is still up, so are the settler propoganda ones, the UN is still there in all its detail ????
Oh you must mean the link for that Israeli bloke from Rehovot, you know the very comprehensive one which shed real light on some of the stranger claims you have made over the years.
Well sadly Ami Isseroff died 3 years ago and the site went down about a year ago.
I am sure you can find much of it archived on other sites though.
Or you could use any of his other sites that his partners still maintain. Zionism-Israel.... Zionism and Israel Information Center....Not in my name.
There's 3 to get you started, but do actually read them this time as maybe their owners will die too and then the sites will go off line.

[Schroeder]

As for running bulldozers and tanks through Gaza, they tried that, it didn't work.
Well then, what would you do if you were in Netanyahu's place?

[Tribesman]

Well then, what would you do if you were in Netanyahu's place?

Move:rotfl2:

[Schroeder]

Move:rotfl2:
They tried that, didn't work.;)

[MH]

Do the IDF links not work? how about the Knesset ones? Yale is still up, so are the settler propoganda ones, the UN is still there in all its detail ????
Oh you must mean the link for that Israeli bloke from Rehovot, you know the very comprehensive one which shed real light on some of the stranger claims you have made over the years.
Well sadly Ami Isseroff died 3 years ago and the site went down about a year ago.
I am sure you can find much of it archived on other sites though.
Or you could use any of his other sites that his partners still maintain. Zionism-Israel.... Zionism and Israel Information Center....Not in my name.
There's 3 to get you started, but do actually read them this time as maybe their owners will die too and then the sites will go off line.

Excellent read.

Oh you must mean the link for that Israeli bloke from Rehovot, you know the very comprehensive one which shed real light on some of the stranger claims you have made over the years.Yes you get personal and detailed lol.
What did he share with you.??
What about the bloke from Dublin/Blackrock.

[Skybird]

Israel will try to destroy as much of the tunnel network of Hamas as possible, via which Hamas operates its launching sites. The military therefore is pressing the politicians to allow ground intervention as long as global diplomacy will not make politicians hitting the stop button prematurely again. First commando raids already have been reported last night.

Egypt is sympathising with the Israelis. That's good news.

Personally I think Israel should systematically scour for Hamas tunnels, officials' apartments, weapon depots, missiles and the like and take the time needed for that, not allowing international "pressure" to make them break off early. Then leave again, but maintaining a total blockade. And maybe they could find a deal for better and tighter isolation at the Gaza-Egypt border.

No solution to the core of the problem, which is the lacking willingness of the Palestinian Arabs to arrange themselves with Israel, but a way to go to win some time again, until the next round.

Once the have left Gaza again, they should switch to a policy of infiltration and systematic assassination of Hamas officers, leaders, officials. In parts they already do that, but they have both feet on the brake. It would be better if Hamas leaders die the day they get elected or grab power. They must fear to claim ranks in Hamas' hierarchy.

[Tribesman]

What about the bloke from Dublin/Blackrock.
Well he would probably say give it a week, once the PR disaster hits and the futility gets apparent as yet again they do exactly what Hamas wants someone will go into bunkervision again.

[Armistead]

Israel will try to destroy as much of the tunnel network of Hamas as possible, via which Hamas operates its launching sites. The military therefore is pressing the politicians to allow ground intervention as long as global diplomacy will not make politicians hitting the stop button prematurely again. First commando raids already have been reported last night.

Egypt is sympathising with the Israelis. That's good news.

Personally I think Israel should systematically scour for Hamas tunnels, officials' apartments, weapon depots, missiles and the like and take the time needed for that, not allowing international "pressure" to make them break off early. Then leave again, but maintaining a total blockade. And maybe they could find a deal for better and tighter isolation at the Gaza-Egypt border.

No solution to the core of the problem, which is the lacking willingness of the Palestinian Arabs to arrange themselves with Israel, but a way to go to win some time again, until the next round.

Once the have left Gaza again, they should switch to a policy of infiltration and systematic assassination of Hamas officers, leaders, officials. In parts they already do that, but they have both feet on the brake. It would be better if Hamas leaders die the day they get elected or grab power. They must fear to claim ranks in Hamas' hierarchy.


Sad as it is, wars like this, you have to make it so hard on the people that they stop supporting their leaders that attack you. It's the only thing that has ever worked in history.

[Schroeder]

Sad as it is, wars like this, you have to make it so hard on the people that they stop supporting their leaders that attack you. It's the only thing that has ever worked in history.
Actually it has never worked. Not in Germany in WWII, not in Korea and not in Vietnam. Anything less of a full scale war with boots on the ground won't change anything (unless you go nuclear) and even that will probably just buy time until Hamas has resupplied itself with bodies and munitions.

[Tribesman]

Sad as it is, wars like this, you have to make it so hard on the people that they stop supporting their leaders that attack you.
Sad as it is, that is what Hamas can claim to be doing too.

It's the only thing that has ever worked in history
But can you think of some examples in history where it has worked?
There are certainly plenty where it didn't.

[Armistead]

Sad as it is, that is what Hamas can claim to be doing too.


But can you think of some examples in history where it has worked?
There are certainly plenty where it didn't.

US Civil War.
Japan
Germany

But it has to be such unconditional warfare that the other side has lost their will and desire to continue in their cultural mindset to war with you.

However, you're also right that it has backfired, but one could argue because the process wasn't seen through.

[Tribesman]

US Civil War.
Japan
Germany

Each of which does not fit your notion.

[Armistead]

Each of which does not fit your notion.

Sure they do, but what I mean is, war so bad that a culture shift takes place and a new style of leadership is implemented or forced.


I also see Hamas stating they have drones now, Israel claims to have shot one down.

[Tribesman]

Sure they do
Really?
Sad as it is, wars like this, you have to make it so hard on the people that they stop supporting their leaders that attack you.




The confederate leadership dissolved itself when its armies were defeated in the field.
Hitler topped himself and named some Nazis as his successors when tanks were rolling through berlin.
Hirohito surrendered when the fantasy of a Russian negotiated deal evaporated.
So where exactly was their loss of support from the people causing the end of the conflicts?

[Armistead]

Really?
Sad as it is, wars like this, you have to make it so hard on the people that they stop supporting their leaders that attack you.




The confederate leadership dissolved itself when its armies were defeated in the field.
Hitler topped himself and named some Nazis as his successors when tanks were rolling through berlin.
Hirohito surrendered when the fantasy of a Russian negotiated deal evaporated.
So where exactly was their loss of support from the people causing the end of the conflicts?


But all those, the people themselves as a whole were done with war and the culture of their system or govt.

[Tribesman]

But all those, the people themselves as a whole were done with war and the culture of their system or govt. How so? any evidence of that?
The US generals stated that morale was good and the confederates remained determined to continue despite the utter hopelessness of their situation.
The germans were fanatic about fighting back against the red horde to preserve the thousand year reich, and the japanese were lining up to die for the emperor in a last attempt to throw the western imperialist dogs back into the sea if they landed so as to keep their god king on his gilded throne.

[Dread Knot]

Well, a brief flicker of sanity today, but Hamas has rejected any cease-fire, so it's back to our regularly scheduled one-sided bombardment. At this point I wonder if the Israelis should deliberately let one missile through to kill a park squirrel. Then Hamas can claim some tiny victory against invasive rodents as a "win" and run.

I have long thought that a strategy of nonviolent resistance would have produced much better results for the Palestinians by now. It seems the Saladin the Great approach tried all these years hasn't really worked. Maybe the Gandhi, MLK or Mandela approach would.

[MH]

I have long thought that a strategy of nonviolent resistance would have produced much better results for the Palestinians by now. It seems the Saladin the Great approach tried all these years hasn't really worked. Maybe the Gandhi, MLK or Mandela approach would.

Definitely would.

[Tribesman]

I have long thought that a strategy of nonviolent resistance would have produced much better results for the Palestinians by now. It seems the Saladin the Great approach tried all these years hasn't really worked. Maybe the Gandhi, MLK or Mandela approach would.
You mean like the ISM or free gaza movements?
Or do you want to go back to Samud from '67?
Lets try boycotts, tax refusals and protest marches...oh that was the start of the first intifada
Have they made much impact over the years?

[Dread Knot]

You mean like the ISM or free gaza movements?
Or do you want to go back to Samud from '67?
Lets try boycotts, tax refusals and protest marches...oh that was the start of the first intifada
Have they made much impact over the years?

It's not going to be an easy road. The main difficulty is starting a movement that both sides don't quickly try to subvert or sublimate. Any charismatic leader who could conceivably start such a movement should be resigned to not living to old age. Only one of the three gentleman I named above did, but at great cost in years. But then maybe a different sort of martyr is what this part of the world needs.

It just seems there must be another approach than the bi-annual one of futile rocket resistance which hasn't done much but help Israel perfect it's anti-missile defenses.

[MH]

You mean like the ISM or free gaza movements?
Or do you want to go back to Samud from '67?
Lets try boycotts, tax refusals and protest marches...oh that was the start of the first intifada
Have they made much impact over the years?
Bullox.. Stop trolling lol
Actually it has.
All that Palestinians accomplished is due to relativly peacefull resistance...
… and they did accomplish not so little.
By using terror they are slowly and surley losing it all.

[Tribesman]

It's not going to be an easy road. The main difficulty is starting a movement that both sides don't quickly try to subvert or sublimate. Any charismatic leader who could conceivably start such a movement should be resigned to not living to old age. Only one of the three gentleman I named above did, but at great cost in years. But then maybe a different sort of martyr is what this part of the world needs.

.
It goes on daily and has done for decades, it doesn't make much news
What I find funny is that you can look in any of the multiple mid east mess topics in this one forum and find some the more vocal people who condemn violent protests going full out in their vitriol against non violent protests too.

It just seems there must be another approach than the bi-annual one of futile rocket resistance which hasn't done much but help Israel perfect it's anti-missile defenses
I think they are stuck with the dual approach.
After all as the basis for the occupation is might makes right then violence would appear to be perfectly acceptable for all sides if you are going to be balanced.
As for perfecting the anti missile systems, just look at the cost, throwaway hundred dollar rockets using up mutli thousand dollar rockets, an a cheap remote controlled "drone" using up a multi million dollar missile.

It certainly don't make economic sense for Israel does it?

Bullox.. Stop trolling lol
Actually it has.
All that Palestinians accomplished is due to relativly peacefull resistance...
… and they did accomplish not so little.
By using terror they are slowly and surley losing it all.
Please make sense, that bloke from Blackrock will be disappointed that you couldn't make a week before your clouded vision kicked in.:rotfl2:

[MH]

It goes on daily and has done for decades, it doesn't make much news
What I find funny is that you can look in any of the multiple mid east mess topics in this one forum and find some the more vocal people who condemn violent protests going full out in their vitriol against non violent protests too.


I think they are stuck with the dual approach.
After all as the basis for the occupation is might makes right then violence would appear to be perfectly acceptable for all sides if you are going to be balanced.
As for perfecting the anti missile systems, just look at the cost, throwaway hundred dollar rockets using up mutli thousand dollar rockets, an a cheap remote controlled "drone" using up a multi million dollar missile.

It certainly don't make economic sense for Israel does it?


Please make sense, that bloke from Blackrock will be disappointed that you couldn't make a week before your clouded vision kicked in.:rotfl2:

Ok I hoped you are trolling… but it turns out that you are just a plain idiot.
Any way have fun…i did… arnt you bored of the same crap you write here year after year.
At least change your style from time to time.
Same arguments... over statment…. on any topic lol…

[Tribesman]

As an example Dread.
The above poster being one of those who has gone completely rabid following the party line attacking non violent protests on numerous occasions.:nope:

[Dread Knot]

As for perfecting the anti missile systems, just look at the cost, throwaway hundred dollar rockets using up mutli thousand dollar rockets, an a cheap remote controlled "drone" using up a multi million dollar missile.

It certainly don't make economic sense for Israel does it?
:rotfl2:


Actually it does make some economic sense if US taxpayers end up footing the bill. I know we helped pay for it's development. :D

I look at it this way. If you can come up with a missile defense system on which enemy rockets and shells are deflected like rain on a bumpershoot, that might indeed be expensive, but if it's taking the public and political pressure off for a conventional ground invasion of Gaza which would be far more expensive in bodies and public relations, then maybe it's cheaper in the long run---but then this is the Mideast were good sense and restraint never prevails for long.

However, the odds dictate at some point a stray Hamas rocket will finally kill an Israeli citizen(s) at which point I guess they have their token victory.

[MH]

It certainly don't make economic sense for Israel does :
You see.. see you again fail to see that the truth is oposite.
All you need is to quit this plumber's aproach to the issues.

[Tribesman]

Actually it does make some economic sense if US taxpayers end up footing the bill. I know we helped pay for it's development. :D


.
:up:

I look at it this way. If you can come up with a missile defense system on which enemy rockets and shells are deflected like rain on a bumpershoot, that might be expensive, but if it's taking the public and political pressure off for a ground invasion which is far more expensive in bodies and public relations, then maybe it's cheaper in the long run---but then this is the Mideast were good sense and restraint never prevails for long.

But look at the other costs, every time the siren sounds thats workers stopping work, calling up 40,00 reservists takes a lot of workers out of production and puts them on the government payroll.

However, the odds dictate at some point a stray Hamas rocket will finally kill an Israeli citizen(s) at which point I guess they have their token victory
Their victory is getting Israel to do the retaliation they wanted.
It a pretty much lose lose situation for Tel Aviv.

[Mr Quatro]

I saw in the news the other day that the Palestine side was complaining about the fact that America is supplying Israel with top grade weapons and weapons defense systems to the cost of $3 billion dollars a year, but they left out the fact that Iran has been supplying the estimated 10,000 rockets they have stockpiled and are using to launch against Israel.

Plus $5 billion dollars a year in aid to purchase all of those nifty green uniforms the population wears on photo days.

Sooner or later Hamas will on purpose or by accident launch a rocket with some type of agent that destroys faith in using the dome shield they are now using to defend themselves against rocket attacks.

The explosion of a rocket with WMD inside of the warhead would then be all over Israel with the resulting fear being wide and far of ever using the dome again.

Hamas will have to take the blame, but they will probably cop out and say that it was an accident and that the men who did it have been punished.

Just a mater of time before one side or the other is backed into a corner.

[MH]

Actually it does make some economic sense if US taxpayers end up footing the bill. I know we helped pay for it's development. :D

I look at it this way. If you can come up with a missile defense system on which enemy rockets and shells are deflected like rain on a bumpershoot, that might indeed be expensive, but if it's taking the public and political pressure off for a conventional ground invasion of Gaza which would be far more expensive in bodies and public relations, then maybe it's cheaper in the long run---but then this is the Mideast were good sense and restraint never prevails for long.

However, the odds dictate at some point a stray Hamas rocket will finally kill an Israeli citizen(s) at which point I guess they have their token victory.

Having international projects and spreading expenses is not the news.
Here you have somthing that actually works very well and not nessecary must or can be used to defend Tel -Aviv only.
Economicly it is a treasure considering the circumstances and how things are going under enemy's bombardment.
Its not just a matter of the costs of the pipes.

[Armistead]

Well, doesn't seem the cease fire had any merit. News reporting Hamas got lucky with a mortar and got a kill.

As Tribe said, these non stop missile attacks basically stop life in Israel, so a ground war will be coming if something doesn't happen soon.

[MH]

On the side note about the iron dome… it just saves a lot of Pakistan lives allthough it may not be evident on first glance….

[Tribesman]

As Tribe said, these non stop missile attacks basically stop life in Israel, so a ground war will be coming if something doesn't happen soon.
But if they go in they can't pretend that they are not the occupying power, which means more expense.
But on the plus side it will reduce Hamas income from sales and import tax.

[Oberon]

Well, Hamas had their chance. Israel played that opportunity well, and no-one can say that they didn't try. Hamas should have taken the option for a cease-fire, refusing it is shooting themselves in the foot, most likely with an Israeli air to ground missile.

[mapuc]

I asked before and the answer I got indicates there ain't no political solution to this problem-Not before both side make some radical changes in the belief

So is the only solution a military solution?

If so, then I'm very unhappy-Military should only be used as a last defense *

* for me a last defense is where you annilate the attacking country or remove the sitting government.


Markus

[Tribesman]

Well, Hamas had their chance. Israel played that opportunity well, and no-one can say that they didn't try. Hamas should have taken the option for a cease-fire, refusing it is shooting themselves in the foot, most likely with an Israeli air to ground missile.
Did they though?
At first glance it seems that way, but the more you look the more obvious it becomes.

[Dread Knot]

So is the only solution a military solution?



There really is no military solution. Israel doesn't want Gaza back. They might go in there in closed ranks like a Roman testudo and break some things, but they'll eventually have to withdraw. On the other hand, Hamas isn't going to drive Israel into the sea anytime soon. So what you have is a perpetual conflict machine. Cease-fire is simply the regional term for reload and replenish.

Short of cloning the territory both parties covet, and placing said territories on opposite ends of the earth I don't think there is a solution.

[mapuc]

Anyone who knows what stood in the mentioned Ceasefire and why Hamas rejected it?

Markus

[mapuc]

There really is no military solution. Israel doesn't want Gaza back. They might go in there in closed ranks like a Roman testudo and break some things, but they'll eventually have to withdraw. On the other hand, Hamas isn't going to drive Israel into the sea anytime soon. So what you have is a perpetual conflict machine. Cease-fire is simply the regional term for reload and replenish.

Short of cloning the territory both parties covet, and placing said territories on opposite ends of the earth I don't think there is a solution.


I guess you are right.

And it's not only HAMAS and the other groups, they had to use their militaty against.

Markus

[Oberon]

Did they though?
At first glance it seems that way, but the more you look the more obvious it becomes.

In what way? What Hamas wanted before it would accept the ceasefire is something that it knew Israel would not accept. Of course, if Hamas is trying to draw Israel into a ground attack where it can attempt attrition ala Lebanon (which has also had rockets fired from within it at Israel) then it will want to avoid a situation where a ceasefire occurs, but it could have at least played the game, accepted the ceasefire and then derailed the negotiations later and blamed it on Israel rather than rejecting the ceasefire outright.
It's a bad international political move by Hamas and it gives Israel that little bit of extra legitimacy for its actions, in a climate where Israel was being seen as the aggressive party by global parties. Israel can now sit back and say "Well, we tried, and they refused to accept our reasonable request."

[Tribesman]

Anyone who knows what stood in the mentioned Ceasefire and why Hamas rejected it?

Markus
Were they even offered it?
Or as the Sky news Israel correspondant put it...
So how can Egypt mediate between two sides if they are unwilling to speak to one of them?:hmmm:

[Oberon]

Were they even offered it?
Or as the Sky news Israel correspondant put it...
So how can Egypt mediate between two sides if they are unwilling to speak to one of them?:hmmm:


:hmmm:

Valid point, but they must have been aware of it, aware of the option, otherwise they would not have rejected it.
It may seem a bit like a loaded gun to the head, and in a way that is pretty much what it is, but when you consider the firepower imbalance between the two sides Hamas is really on the back foot.
Sure, Israel is spending more than Hamas, but I don't know how that will actually affect Israel, which has weathered the recession relatively undamaged.

[vrg-hl]

Markus/Mapuc,

As far as diplomatic solutions are concerned, it should be understood that it is possible, but requires a sea change in the nature of pan-arab politics; denial of the the Jewish right to reclaim Israel is an important part of the glue that kept Arab states off each others throats as the ottoman empire was kicked into it's stately but long overdue grave and the colonial machines lost their steam. One cold war and many fortunes spent on developing a fine case of trans-regional oil based dutch disease later, it could also be what keeps them alive after the OPEC band-aid starts to peel.

Can that change? Yes - if Iran springs, Egypt gets another leader like Sadat, the Jordan keeps it's moderates alive, and Turkey figures out it's domestic teething problems then something can actually be done at the table. The question to ask yourself, then, is how likely that is to develop, how many Gaza offensives will happen between that time, and how long Israel can hold out for a good faith partner in meaningful negotiations - this is not an issue that is solved with just two or three parties at the table, and all of the parties at the Arab side have someone else to answer to or worry about first. Meanwhile, the US and Israel being elective democratic governments, will always have to contend with public opinion swaying their negotiating position - so timing matters as much as circumstance.

Since you were asking for general background, this link may be of use to you: CFR issue brief (http://www.cfr.org/israel/crisis-guide-israeli-palestinian-conflict/p13850)

As far as this one particular offensive is concerned, yes, the answer is solely military I think - Hamas wants Israel to conduct a ground offensive as much as the Knesset's hard liners. Why? The Hamas-Fatah accord was doomed from day one, Gaza now has General Sisi as a neighbor rather than their IB friends, and they need something they look at as a moral victory in some manner. Elliot Abrams summed it up well today:

If Israel comes into Gaza, one has to assume some IDF soldiers will be killed. Perhaps then Hamas will claim a partial victory and agree to a cease fire. This is a polite way of saying Hamas feels it has not spilled enough Israeli blood and wants some- and of course is unconcerned about how many Palestinians will die. - source (http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/15/why-hamas-wants-an-invasion/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+eabrams+%28Elliott+Abrams%3A+ Pressure+Points%29)

[Tribesman]

In what way? What Hamas wanted before it would accept the ceasefire is something that it knew Israel would not accept. , Israel can now sit back and say "Well, we tried, and they refused to accept our reasonable request."
So doesn't that make the offer moot?

but it could have at least played the game Its playing its own silly game.

Of course, if Hamas is trying to draw Israel into a ground attack where it can attempt attrition ala Lebanon (which has also had rockets fired from within it at Israel) then it will want to avoid a situation where a ceasefire occurs, I don't think the nice people in Hamas really care if there is an invasion or if the bombs keep falling. If they did they wouldn't have pushed for it to happen in the first place.
Add to your Lebanon thing though, rockets are reported from Syria too.
So that's the occupied territories, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, all we need now is Jordan for the full house.
.

It's a bad international political move by Hamas and it gives Israel that little bit of extra legitimacy for its actions, in a climate where Israel was being seen as the aggressive party by global parties. International is a lot of countries and it is a long game.
Netanyahu played it well, he was also quick to sack the deputy, but he really needs to rein in Lieberman.
And for gods sake can someone get Tony Blair away from it all, the last thing the middle east needs is that dickhead spouting off with his voices in his head.

[Oberon]

So doesn't that make the offer moot?

Indeed, but it was Hamas that wanted to alter the deal rather than accept it at face value as Israel was prepared to.

Its playing its own silly game.

Indeed, it really is rather silly, and if it wasn't for the countless deaths it might even be rather amusing.

I don't think the nice people in Hamas really care if there is an invasion or if the bombs keep falling. If they did they wouldn't have pushed for it to happen in the first place.

Well, it's never the head-honchos that seem to get the bomb dropped on them, or if they do the ones below just look at it as a job advancement scheme.

]Add to your Lebanon thing though, rockets are reported from Syria too.
So that's the occupied territories, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, all we need now is Jordan for the full house.

Hasn't Egypt managed to stomp down on those rockets yet? :hmmm:

International is a lot of countries and it is a long game.
Netanyahu played it well, he was also quick to sack the deputy, but he really needs to rein in Lieberman.

Israel has played this round a lot better than previous ones, well this set at least, but the game is not over yet.

And for gods sake can someone get Tony Blair away from it all, the last thing the middle east needs is that dickhead spouting off with his voices in his head.

What? Tony? Gods Own Representative On Earth (TM)? What could possibly go wrong with him around... :/\\!!

[Tribesman]

Indeed, but it was Hamas that wanted to alter the deal rather than accept it at face value as Israel was prepared to.

But what did the deal offer them?
From their view....nothing.
Israel got offered some of what it wanted, stop the rockets.
Hamas got offered stop the bombs, they don't seem to give a damn about the bombs, they seem to welcome it.

Indeed, it really is rather silly, and if it wasn't for the countless deaths it might even be rather amusing.

:yep:

Hasn't Egypt managed to stomp down on those rockets yet? :hmmm:

Well they have got their hands full, what with rounding up people who don't like the coup, stopping the crazies attacking the Suez and extra protection for the heavily impacted tourist trade.
Even with Israel allowing them to increase their military presence in the Sinai its still a very big area with very limited forces.

Israel has played this round a lot better than previous ones, well this set at least, but the game is not over yet.
Yes, but sadly it looks like it is still early days yet.

What? Tony? Gods Own Representative On Earth (TM)? What could possibly go wrong with him around... :/\\!!
Indeed, I saw three articles by him in your media and he did two talking head pieces on the TV.
Will someone just lock him in the nuthouse please, or do the world a favour put him on the ground at the border fence and let both sides shoot at him.

[Mr Quatro]

As far as diplomatic solutions are concerned, it should be understood that it is possible, but requires a sea change in the nature of pan-arab politics; denial of the the Jewish right to reclaim Israel is an important part of the glue that kept Arab states off each others throats ...

Welcome aboard vrg-hi and thank you for your input ...

[Tribesman]

Well oberon, further to...
Indeed, it really is rather silly, and if it wasn't for the countless deaths it might even be rather amusing.

Since the Sisi ceasefire didn't mention any groups and was just a general thing put out to the media, lots of local terrorist groups have taken the opportunity to reject it, some of which I had forgotten still existed as active terrorists.
No that's rather amusing.:03:

[Skybird]

Anyone who knows what stood in the mentioned Ceasefire and why Hamas rejected it?

Markus
It was an Israeli coup out of the blue to "accept" that Egypt-brokered proposal - and they expected Hamas to reject it, I am certain. Becasue there is a political and a military leadership level in Hamas, and the chieftains are scattered across all the place and also outside Gaza and across the whole region - impossible to have them all getting asked and made to agree on a cease fire in short time, even more so when many do not want a cease fire without anything in their hand helping them to save their face, but wanting to have more dead bodies in Gaza so that they can press global opinion to condemn Israel.

Israel gets the more pressure the more dead bodies there are. The refusal by Hamas buys them time to continue a bit longer while being able to hold Hamas liable for it: "We offered a cease fire, and we held a cease fire for hours - and Hamas continued to shower us with rockets!"

Clever move by the Israelis. I think Hamas got caught by surprise.

---

I say the same what I initially said in 2006: limited operations to just weaken the enemy, will not do anything lasting to overcome the conflict. One side needs to get wiped out instead, to end the conflict.

I am with Alfred the Butler (in Batman), who explains to Bruce Wayne that some people cannot be argued with , convinced or intimidated, because they just wanna watch the world burn. When Wayne later asks him what they finally did about that thief in the forest in Burma that they could not catch, he replies that they finally burned down the whole forest, which solved the thief issue.

I said somehting similiar in 2006, regarding Hezbollah in Lebanon. I still think so today.

Gaza delenda est.

[Oberon]

Well oberon, further to...

Since the Sisi ceasefire didn't mention any groups and was just a general thing put out to the media, lots of local terrorist groups have taken the opportunity to reject it, some of which I had forgotten still existed as active terrorists.
No that's rather amusing.:03:

"I reject this ceasefire!!"
"Ali, you're a baker..."
"Never! I jihad my bread at this Israelis!"

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/My+Hat+Is+Bread.+Sorry+if+it+s+a+repost.+Tell_b6e1 f5_4103250.jpg

(wrong country I know, but I couldn't resist)

[MH]

I say the same what I initially said in 2006: limited operations to just weaken the enemy, will not do anything lasting to overcome the conflict. One side needs to get wiped out instead, to end the conflict.
s
The situation is as usual... wipe out those bastards if you want but please don't let anyone get hurt.
We condemn the firing of rockets from Gaza and call all parties for restrain and so on....

[Dread Knot]

Indeed, it really is rather silly, and if it wasn't for the countless deaths it might even be rather amusing.


When it comes to the Gaza strip and it's ruling party that old iconic congressmen's quote about South Carolina's secession from the Union always comes to mind.

"Too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum."

[Tribesman]

I am with Alfred the Butler (in Batman), who explains to Bruce Wayne that some people cannot be argued with , convinced or intimidated, because they just wanna watch the world burn.
Now that is interesting from Skybird
Given your ideology and your dreams about what should happen to the world and its people, was Alfred talking about someone like you?:hmmm:

@Oberon
(wrong country I know, but I couldn't resist)
I was expecting Life of Brian:haha:

[AngusJS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q71R9jW6oR8

GJ Israel

[Jimbuna]

Tragic.

[Tribesman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q71R9jW6oR8

GJ Israel

Legitimate targets, honestly.
Well its better than the first excuse they made which was that it was a Hamas rocket which killed the kids. Why oh why do there have to be pesky journalists right on the scene.

So how does it go...there is a old shipping container at the harbour, this was used for a while in the past for the inspection of fish catches, the fisheries inspection is a government job, hamas is the government so that means the old shipping container is a terrorist facility.
These children were seen congregating in the vicinity of a terrorist facility so were legitimately targeted as suspected terrorists, this is what happens when you hide terrorist facilities among fishermen.:hmmm:

[MH]

Originally Posted by AngusJS http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2225561#post2225561)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q71R9jW6oR8

GJ Israel


I hope you really care do you?.


Time to vulture a bit I guess.....fun fun fun.

[Rockstar]

Sad that 4 children had to die. But damn, how convenient having journalists meeting in the area. If ya ask me its just another perfect opportunity for propaganda? On-scene witness says "we think" it came from an Israeli gunboat. Others shouting at "unseen" Israeli gunners.

Anyone know what Israeli gunboats are armed with these days? Which would I assume based on the witness allow them to take pot shots from from an unseen position?

[CCIP]

Anyone know what Israeli gunboats are armed with these days? Which would I assume based on the witness allow them to take pot shots from from an unseen position?

It's possible. If we're talking guns - the 76mm autocannons on some of them would be plausible candidates. Those have at least 16km of range. All other gun armaments are substantially more short-ranged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27ar_4.5-class_missile_boat

[Rockstar]

No matter what Navy. I find it hard to believe just three rounds from a Otobreda 76mm auto cannon was the weapon of choice to target an empty cargo container on a beach filled to the brim with western journalists and children.

[Tribesman]

No matter what Navy. I find it hard to believe just three rounds from a Otobreda 76mm auto cannon was the weapon of choice to target an empty cargo container on a beach filled to the brim with western journalists and children.
Well that's just one of the excuses, another one now, they targeted an area that was full of weapons.:hmmm:

[Oberon]

Israels PM has given orders for a ground offensive to begin in Gaza.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582#TWEET1186864

[Skybird]

Many days wasted already. I wonder why.

[Oberon]

Many days wasted already. I wonder why.

They needed more kills to unlock the 'Ground support' bonus.

[Jimbuna]

They needed more kills to unlock the 'Ground support' bonus.

Becoming more worrying with each passing hour.

[Skybird]

They needed more kills to unlock the 'Ground support' bonus.
Really? The Israeli military leadership (not the politicians!) obviously has not been of that opinion, demanding permission for starting a ground offensive since - since how many days now?

[Tribesman]

Really? The Israeli military leadership (not the politicians!) obviously has not been of that opinion, demanding permission for starting a ground offensive since - since how many days now?
You failed to intercept that rocket, it flew right over your head.:D

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/HIIJTQn.png

[Skybird]

German:

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article130348231/Noch-nie-stand-die-Hamas-so-allein-wie-heute.html

No love for Hamas from its traditional allies in the Arab world, and Egypt - wages war on it, having closed all known tunnels at the Egyptian-Gaza border and its press celebrating Netanyahu and wishing the Israelis good luck. With Syria having turned to Shia Iran and Turkey's Sultan Erdoghan I. firing racist rethorics against Israel and not more, Hamas' situation is quite desperate.

I think that there might be an opportunity window opening. Israel has the chance to continue its operations for longer than maybe was previously assumed, since the Arabs are surprisingly quite at the UN over Gaza (the regimes of the past often were when Hamas got pounded, but never before was the silence so sounding like this time), fighting against their own internal rebellions by religious hardliners. All this translates into a chance for Israel to do much more damage to Hamas' infrastructure, command hierarchy and weapon stockpiles, then usually.

Meanwhile, Germany: thousands of culture-enriching "German" people with migration background can now walk freely in the streets and do like Nazis have done back then, just that Nazis today shouting "Türken raus!" would be immediately attacked by the police, while this primitive peace-loving scum today in all cases was even protected by police when they shouted by the thousands on Berlin streets ""Jude, Jude, feiges Schwein, komm heraus und kämpf allein!" (Jew, Jew, cowardly pig! Come out and fight alone!), or Gelsenkirchen: "Hamas, Hamas! Juden ab ins Gas!" (Hamas, Hamas! All jews into the gas!) Or Essen: "Scheiß Juden sollen brennen!" (F###cking Jews shoulds all burn!") All these "expressions of free opinion" by German law are punishable elements of an offense due to sedition/incitement of the people, say jurists (Straftatbestand der Volksverhetzung)), but the police, present by the hundreds - did nothing. If Nazis would march and do such chants, the police would act with much less hesitation, and Germany immediately would have a media-intensive discussion of how deeply the Nazi-genes is rooting in German's thinlking again. But it is just tolerant, peace-loving, culture-enriching Arabs - let'S assume they don't mean it that way, they are kind people. Lets be sensible. It s hot summer days these days, and an occasional emotion never has killed anyone. Only that Turks or Arabs hunting Jews in Berlin streets nowadays is no more a rare, single event. Well, Germany was late in thbis new sport, in other countries like Sweden it already is part of the way of life in some cities. Occasionally it gets reported in the newspaper (which nowadays always hide when reporting about Arab criminals that they are no Germ,ans, but Arabs or Turks), but I know by first hand from a police insider in Berlin that the number of incidents is several times as high, but the senate (an ultra-red gang) is supressing the statistics being made known to the public. The racist slurs shouted by thousands during the mentioned demonstration also for the most got reprted as "groups of people". Their migration/Arab background mostly got hidden. - Again, incitement of the people by German laws is a punishable crime. Not to mention that it also were insults of a quality that also could be sanctioned by laws. If you call another car driver "Blöde Kuh!" (stupid cow!), you could be brought to court.

It might be helpful, to give these two quotes from the Hamas Charta from 1988:

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement (=Hamas, Skybird). For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad"

and:

"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

I give this prediciton, and I am happy that I will not live long enough - hopefully - to see it becoming true: before the end of this century, Europe will again see huge progroms staged against Jews, and again people will be able to discriminate, kick out and chase Jews like animals, like it already have been done repeatedly in Europe. From certain areas in Holland (Rotterdam), Sweden (Malmö, Stockholm, and other regions), Jews already are fleeing by the thousands, due to Islamic-Arab terror against them. The helpful advise by some Israel-hostile Swedish minister last year, or the year before, was this: he recommended that maybe they should hide their Jewish identity and maybe should rethink their opinions about Israel.

But Erdoghan just days ago calling Israel as more barbaric than Hitler...?

[Schroeder]

http://i.imgur.com/HIIJTQn.png
There is so much wrong with this picture it's stunning...
(or do I miss the joke? I mean Imperial Germany never met Israel for obvious reasons, Germany wasn't involved in developing or building Iron Dome as far as I know and these imperial helmets were made of leather, not metal, that's why they were swapped out later in the war for some made of steel.....)

[Tribesman]

"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

Which time?:hmmm:
Oh yeah the time of the end of the world.
Hey I thought with your strange ideologies you would be in favour of all that end of the world stuff.
Pretty much identical to the end of time stories from the other two regional religions isn't it, probably because its based on one which is based on the other.
Religious texts eh one says only its chosen will win, the other says only its chosen will win, and the third says only its chosen will win:rotfl2:

Wow talking trees
Apart of course from the special tree which says nothing because its special, otherwise known to common folk as ...a tree.:har:

[Oberon]

There is so much wrong with this picture it's stunning...
(or do I miss the joke? I mean Imperial Germany never met Israel for obvious reasons, Germany wasn't involved in developing or building Iron Dome as far as I know and these imperial helmets were made of leather, not metal, that's why they were swapped out later in the war for some made of steel.....)

http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5164983+_0d1d135d626d2eec19cc6a6b939eff7c.jpg

[Jimbuna]

The Palestinian death toll is now approaching 400 and Israel have expanded their operation. Israel says the ground operation is necessary to target a Hamas tunnel network, which it says it could not do from the air alone.

Israeli deaths are five Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians.

Hopefully the arrival of UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, due to arrive in Qatar later to meet Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, can help bring about an end to this madness.

[Schroeder]

http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5164983+_0d1d135d626d2eec19cc6a6b939eff7c.jpg
I'm German so that's ok...:yep:

[Skybird]

The Palestinian death toll is now approaching 400 and Israel have expanded their operation. Israel says the ground operation is necessary to target a Hamas tunnel network, which it says it could not do from the air alone.

Israeli deaths are five Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians.

Hopefully the arrival of UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, due to arrive in Qatar later to meet Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, can help bring about an end to this madness.

Is that the same Ban Ki-Moon who just weeks ago oversaw and headed a conference of the African Union with Arab, Western and Israeli participation - and when the Arab block demanded that not just the representatives of Israel but also all Jewish representatives from Western states, including the Americans, should leave the assembly hall, else the Islamic countries would boycot it, just sat and smiled and let this racist discrimination being carried out, without proptest,m without rising his word against it, without using the claimed credit of his so-called authority to call the Islamic racists to order?

The conference continued after all Jews had been removed.

Two hours of "humanitarian seize-fire" are announced in Gaza, both sides said they want to obey it. Good opportunity to give Ki-Moon a home-running royal kick into his butt that will transport him via airmail and nonstop back to Korea, which he never should have left anyway. One is used to expect nothing from the UN, but the caricature this man makes of his office, is extreme - even by UN standards.

[Jimbuna]

Is that the same Ban Ki-Moon who just weeks ago oversaw and headed a conference of the African Union with Arab, Western and Israeli participation - and when the Arab block demanded that not just the representatives of Israel but also all Jewish representatives from Western states, including the Americans, should leave the assembly hall, else the Islamic countries would boycot it, just sat and smiled and let this racist discrimination being carried out, without proptest,m without rising his word against it, without using the claimed credit of his so-called authority to call the Islamic racists to order?

The conference continued after all Jews had been removed.

Two hours of "humanitarian seize-fire" are announced in Gaza, both sides said they want to obey it. Good opportunity to give Ki-Moon a home-running royal kick into his butt that will transport him via airmail and nonstop back to Korea, which he never should have left anyway. One is used to expect nothing from the UN, but the caricature this man makes of his office, is extreme - even by UN standards.

Yeah, that's the one.

[Tribesman]

Is that the same Ban Ki-Moon who just weeks ago oversaw and headed a conference of the African Union with Arab, Western and Israeli participation - and when the Arab block demanded that not just the representatives of Israel but also all Jewish representatives from Western states, including the Americans, should leave the assembly hall, else the Islamic countries would boycot it, just sat and smiled and let this racist discrimination being carried out, without proptest,m without rising his word against it, without using the claimed credit of his so-called authority to call the Islamic racists to order?

Perfectly correct action. You can't have it both ways.
If you declare The Jewish Homeland and The Jewish State you cover all Jews.
Silly move by Israel, since.... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the rights and political status of jewish populations in other countries.:yep:

[Mr Quatro]

Israeli deaths are five Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians.



Add 13 more Israeli soldier's due to an ambush: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/gaza-israel.html?_r=0


Sunday’s death toll for the Israeli soldiers surpassed the number of soldiers killed in the past two Gaza offensives.
In the 2008-9 war, 10 died, four of them from “friendly fire.”

[Dread Knot]

Add 13 more Israeli soldier's due to an ambush: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/gaza-israel.html?_r=0

Hope quashing those tunnels is worth it. Maybe it's time to work on an Iron Dome variant....the Iron Basement.

[Safe-Keeper]

A salt water moat around Gaza should do the trick. A deep moat. With sharks:hmmm:.

[Safe-Keeper]

Sad that 4 children had to die. But damn, how convenient having journalists meeting in the area. If ya ask me its just another perfect opportunity for propaganda? On-scene witness says "we think" it came from an Israeli gunboat. Others shouting at "unseen" Israeli gunners.

Anyone know what Israeli gunboats are armed with these days? Which would I assume based on the witness allow them to take pot shots from from an unseen position?
1. totally not unlike HAMAS to put journalists, children and whatnot as close as possible to military sites. Innocent deaths make for excellent propaganda.

2. same goes for lying about who did the shooting. There have been, and continue to be, cases of Palestinians dying because of terrorists' screw-ups, not to mention outright fabrication of deaths and attacks.

Only useful idiots would trust them for a second.

[Skybird]

Some data indicating what direction things will go - no change to be expected at all.

Gunnar Heinsohn, youth bulge theory, anyone?

http://www.indexmundi.com/gaza_strip/demographics_profile.html

Population 1,763,387 (July 2013 est.)

Age structure
0-14 years: 43.5% (male 394,108/female 372,897)
15-24 years: 20.9% (male 188,626/female 179,529)
25-54 years: 29.6% (male 268,122/female 254,630)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 29,682/female 29,933)
65 years and over: 2.6% (male 18,701/female 27,159) (2013 est.)Dependency ratiostotal dependency ratio: 75.6 %

youth dependency ratio: 70.4 %

elderly dependency ratio: 5.2 %

potential support ratio: 19.2

age
total: 18.1 years
male: 17.9 years
female: 18.2 years (2013 est.)Population growth rate3.01% (2013 est.)Birth rate33.27 births/1,000 population (2013 est.)Death rate3.15 deaths/1,000 population (2013 est.)

Total fertility rate 4.41 children born/woman (2013 est.)

Ethnic groups Palestinian Arab

[Oberon]

:hmmm:

Not exactly surprising statistics, Gaza isn't exactly New York City, more like Mogadishu.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg/863px-Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg.png
(Fertility rate)

Of course there's going to be a youth bulge when infant mortality isn't exactly low and there is a risk of being killed by either a militant or an Israeli at some point. You have as many children as possible because you have no idea how many of them will reach adulthood. It's a no brainer.

[Dan D]

Some data indicating what direction things will go - no change to be expected at all.

Gunnar Heinsohn, youth bulge theory, anyone?

http://www.indexmundi.com/gaza_strip/demographics_profile.html

Population 1,763,387 (July 2013 est.)

Age structure
0-14 years: 43.5% (male 394,108/female 372,897)
15-24 years: 20.9% (male 188,626/female 179,529)
25-54 years: 29.6% (male 268,122/female 254,630)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 29,682/female 29,933)
65 years and over: 2.6% (male 18,701/female 27,159) (2013 est.)Dependency ratiostotal dependency ratio: 75.6 %

youth dependency ratio: 70.4 %

elderly dependency ratio: 5.2 %

potential support ratio: 19.2

age
total: 18.1 years
male: 17.9 years
female: 18.2 years (2013 est.)Population growth rate3.01% (2013 est.)Birth rate33.27 births/1,000 population (2013 est.)Death rate3.15 deaths/1,000 population (2013 est.)

Total fertility rate 4.41 children born/woman (2013 est.)

Ethnic groups Palestinian Arab

What is the point, Otto?

[Skybird]

What is the point, Otto?

Check the man and the theory, Walter.

I did not mention both for no reason.


He is known most widely for his theory of the Youth Bulge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_Bulge). He argues that an excess in especially young adult male population predictably leads to social unrest, war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War) and terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism), as the "third and fourth sons" that find no prestigious positions in their existing societies rationalize their impetus to compete by religion or political ideology. Heinsohn claims that most historical periods of social unrest lacking external triggers (such as rapid climatic changes or other catastrophic changes of the environment) and most genocides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide) can be readily explained as a result of a built up youth bulge, including European colonialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_European_colonization_wave_%2815th_century%E 2%80%9319th_century%29), 20th century Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism), and ongoing conflicts such as that in Darfur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict), The Palestinian uprisings in 1987-1993 and 2000 to present, and terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism).


"Söhne und Weltmacht" is a highly recommendable book. Should become mandatory reading for politicians, diplomats, and students of history and politics.

German:
http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%B6hne-Weltmacht-Terror-Aufstieg-Nationen/dp/3280060087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405980525&sr=8-1&keywords=S%C3%B6hne+und+Weltmacht

[TarJak]

US FAA closes down US flights to Tel Aviv today after rocket attacks landed near the airport there.

[Dread Knot]

US FAA closes down US flights to Tel Aviv today after rocket attacks landed near the airport there.

On a related note, the main international airport in Tripoli, Libya has been shut down due to rockets and rebel faction infighting. It's getting to be a dicey world for commercial aviation.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28304004

[Armistead]

Perfectly correct action. You can't have it both ways.
If you declare The Jewish Homeland and The Jewish State you cover all Jews.
Silly move by Israel, since.... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the rights and political status of jewish populations in other countries.:yep:

Nonsense. You really think Jews born in America or have citizenship would be concerned, as in any other nation, except the nut ones..

[Oberon]

US FAA closes down US flights to Tel Aviv today after rocket attacks landed near the airport there.

European airlines have done the same IIRC, Hamas scored itself some points there, Israel can't quite take the 'Business as usual in Tel Aviv' approach it has been lately.

[Tribesman]

Nonsense. You really think Jews born in America or have citizenship would be concerned, as in any other nation, except the nut ones..
But how do you tell the nut ones from the not nut ones?
Is it The Jewish Homeland for Jewish Nuts or The Jewish Homeland?

Does the State support lobby groups within and without these governments?

Now since the first batch of Israeli casualties in this latest round of sillyness included a Texan and a Californian are you saying they were nuts?

Personally I would have thought a group to be excluded from any meeting should be the Evangelicals, after all their support of Israel and returning Jews to Jerusalem is based on exactly the same sort of end of times scripture as you find in the Hamas charter.:03:

[Jimbuna]

European airlines have done the same IIRC, Hamas scored itself some points there, Israel can't quite take the 'Business as usual in Tel Aviv' approach it has been lately.

EasyJet certainly have...I know someone who had their flight cancelled.

[Rockstar]

940 rockets launched against Israel's civilian population. And the highlight of todays news is about cancellation of US and Euro flights to Tel Aviv. Anyone know if the house was occupied? anyone give a rats arse if it was occupied? Does anyone even know that many rockets were fired?

[Tribesman]

940 rockets launched against Israel's civilian population. And the highlight of todays news is about cancellation of US and Euro flights to Tel Aviv. Anyone know if the house was occupied? anyone give a rats arse if it was occupied? Does anyone even know that many rockets were fired?
940 rockets is the news from 10 days ago, todays news is about todays news.

[Mr Quatro]

Trying to stay on subject here, but did you see that stunning lady in the black pants suit walking off in the Israel airport lobby,
after all USA flights were canceled leaving Israel, with her carry on rolling behind her bouncing her ample bosom at the same time?

Wow!

Iran and Saudi Arabia and Jordan could've given up the same amount of territory in dispute for these same Palestinians and even put an air-conditioned dome over it by now if they had wanted to.

It's hard to see them suffer for the Hamas hardliners. I personally am not tough enough to make these major decisions of hurting these innocent peoples.

That's why they have hawks and doves, uh? :yep:

[Armistead]

They would've been much better off under the govt. of Fatah I think. Seems they were more secular. The people voted in Hamas....hope they have been enjoying the results. Hamas doesn't believe Israel should exist and the people are in part responsible....

You reap what you sow....

[Tribesman]

You reap what you sow....
Yes, and early support for Hamas as a counter to the PLO has certainly given Israel a bitter harvest.

[Skybird]

In Austria, a test football match between Haifa (ISR) and Lille (FRA) had to be broklen off after Turks and Palestinian Arabs stormed the field and chased the Israelis around, beating and kicking them. The irony - The club from Israel is a project that tries to work for the conciliation between Israeli Arabs and Jews. Conciliation obviously was not what this Turkish and Arab scum wanted.

The rate of Jewws fleeing from France is as high as never before. Two days ago I read an article where interviewed ex-French Jews said that in the cities they fled from in France the risks for them were greater now than they are when staying in Israel and needing to hide in the basement when the sirens go on.

The exodus of Jews fleeing from Germany, Holland, Denmark and especially Sweden also hits alltime highs.

throughout Europe many people welcioming antisemtic policies claim louder than tolerant people to not be anti-semitic.

In Germany, the same politicians acting with lip-confessions of disgust and shock over the racist excesses by Arabs in the streets, prevent the polcie and state attorneys to start investigations - that could damage the precious tolerant relations with Arab regimes and this wonderful, fragile "dialogue with Islam", as the idiots over here call their self-deceptive illusions.

Four days ago we had seen scenes and heard lsogans here that reminded of the events short before the Reichskristallnacht. Just that it were not the Nazis rioting in the streets, but Muhammaddans and Arabs, lefties and communists. The German left maintains strong ties to Islamic "fundamentalists" and Arab anti-zionists. All European lefts are like that.

Shows of which mindset they really are. The common goal shared by both sides: the destruction of the bourgeois society, and first: erosion and then next: overcoming of the constitutional state order. After that, their ideological paths separate. A small but important detail that the left dumbheads so far are not aware of, or seriously assume to be managable by their superior ideology. :haha:

[Oberon]

the destruction of the bourgeois society, and first: erosion and then next: overcoming of the constitutional state order.

So...destroy the corrupt elite?

To be honest, I think the Greeks must chase their establishement and politicians in the streets and hang them on lightmasts and telephone poles

"Republic" is no holy grail, just a word with am meaning attached to it. When it is corrupted, then it is corrupted. When how it was meant is gone, then the meaning is gone. When you stay loyal to the eroded empty carcass of it, then you are under the spell of images from the past, and are a slave of the lack in the present. You get reigned, and not to your best benefit. You get reigned to the best benefit of those in command.

In some years, maybe 10 to 20 at max, but probably earlier, europpe paymaster No. 1 will have run out of heartblood, and collapse. And then the EU is done any many European states as well. Honstely said, I am looking forward.

If somebody plans to burn down that damn treacherous Reichstag, please accept me handing you the matches.


And change the state order?

Heck, the self-disolving of Germany in what is called over here an "integration process" is even anchored in the German constitution! It is probably the only constitution in the world calling for the self-dissolving of the nation that the constitution holds.

The declaration of independence was a good thing. The constitution less so, mainly for it founds the belief that the people must be governed by a government (that there must be a general state).

[Tribesman]

In Austria, a test football match between Haifa (ISR) and Lille (FRA) had to be broklen off after Turks and Palestinian Arabs stormed the field and chased the Israelis around, beating and kicking them. The irony - The club from Israel is a project that tries to work for the conciliation between Israeli Arabs and Jews. Conciliation obviously was not what this Turkish and Arab scum wanted.

Do you mean a handful of people ran onto the field waving flags and shouting?:hmmm:

Then Dekel Keinan tripped one over and hit another one of them and it then turned into a little brawl with players from both teams plus officials/stewards/security and other fans chasing very small group of protesters from the pitch.
Hardly fits your description does it?
Are you perhaps talking about a different match entirely?
Perhaps Maccabi Haifa had a twin team playing in an alternative universe:haha:

Is it worth noting that both teams had black and muslim players?
I seem to recall a rather funny post complaining that black and muslim players ruin the game of soccer.
You wouldn't be the same Skybird that made that funny post by any chance?

[Tribesman]

Oberon, that's nasty , how dare you use his own posts to counter his own posts:rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

This thread has already taken a few twists and turns but can we all try to stay on topic.

Sticks and stones and name calling as of when and should they occur only bring threads to the forefront of peoples attention.

*bell sounds* Round 2

[Tribesman]

This thread has already taken a few twists and turns but can we all try to stay on topic.
It is on topic.
It's soccer.
Everyone knows soccer has some crazy spectators, after all back at the start of this recent round of silliness who can forget the soccer crowd from Bibis team running through the streets of Jerusalem attacking people and property while shouting death to the arabs?
Unfortunately it is also alledged that the 3 people arrested for murder for burning that muslim kid alive were also soccer fans from that particular club
Its all a game, a wonderful game of football.:03:

[Skybird]

So...destroy the corrupt elite?

They want to destroy it even in its ideal condition. And me, I am pretty much bourgeois in the old, traditional sense. I am no9t corrupted by today's messy morals, however. A libertarian society would be a bourgeoise society, pretty much sao. But is society today like that?

Try again Oberon. Nice attempt, though.

What you call corrupted elites, I call a new form of feudalism. And career politicians nowadays, in union with monopolised economy and banking leaders, act and behave like a new caste of aristocrats. No longer are politicians expected to be held accountable by the people, instead politicians expect the people to be accountable to them.

And the remains of the bourgeoise society today? Is already deeply infested by socialist thinking and expectation directed at others, always.

It's all a big mess.

In the Find of the Day thread I will post Locke in the close future.

[MH]

I thought I would throw something in while the "bibi boys" or what ever are having fun.

Hamas, not Israel, is the real enemy of the Palestinians
To Gaza’s innocent civilians: Demand a ‘Gaza Spring’ and rid yourself of Hamas’ violent theocrats and kleptocrats, who love Palestinian children less than they hate Israel.

By Alan M. Dershowitz (http://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/alan-m-dershowitz-1.444765) | Jul. 16, 2014 | 11:57 PM | http://www.haaretz.com/images/icons/comment.png 4

The real enemy of the innocent civilians of Gaza is Hamas, not Israel. Despite the fact that many Gazans voted for Hamas in the last Palestinian election, that terrorist organization has ill-served its constituents.

When Israel ended its occupation (http://www.haaretz.com/news/gaza-sealed-as-disengagement-begins-1.166809) of Gaza in 2005, it left behind farm equipment and other material capable of feeding the population. Donor countries promised support, both financial and political if Gaza would live up to its potential as a Singapore on the Mediterranean. But instead the leaders of Gaza enriched themselves and used the remaining resources to build rockets instead of plowshares. They fired these rockets at Israeli civilians and devised a strategy of using their own innocent civilians as human shields against Israel’s anticipated responses to the rocket fire. Only after Hamas started firing rockets at Israeli civilians, did Israel impose a painful blockade against Gaza, which contributed to the area’s poor economic situation.

The Hamas human shield strategy—in combination with its refusal to allow its civilians to seek shelter in Gaza’s many tunnels, which are reserved for Hamas terrorists and commanders—has resulted in what appears to be a disproportionate ratio of civilians to combatants among Gazan casualties. Although the international media blames this unfortunate ratio on Israel, the civilian population of Gaza knows the truth: That Hamas deliberately seeks to increase the number of civilian casualties by not providing them shelter, while seeking to decrease the number of terrorist casualties by providing them the safety of tunnels and other secure areas.

Following the publication of the Goldstone Report in 2009, which catalogued the high proportion of civilians to combatant deaths among Gazans, loud complaints were heard from many ordinary citizens of Gaza: Why do you protect Hamas fighters, while exposing civilians? Hamas responded by claiming—quite ironically—that many of those counted as “civilians” by the Goldstone Report, especially among the police, were actually Hamas combatants.

Whatever the facts turn out to be during the current encounter, more and more Gazans are beginning to understand how ill-served they have been by Hamas. And now, media reports are documenting the extraordinary wealth accumulated by Hamas leaders at the expense of ordinary Gazans. As one report (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4543634,00.html)put it: “With multi-million-dollar land deals, luxury villas and black market fuel from Egypt, Gaza's rulers made billions while the rest of the population struggled with 38-percent poverty and 40-percent unemployment.”

The report went on to detail the newly acquired wealth of specific Hamas leaders, strongly suggesting that this violent theocracy has now also become a criminal kleptocracy, at the expense of the people of Gaza.

During a recent radio interview, I was asked what I would do if I were a resident of Gaza, suffering from unemployment and Israeli rockets counterattacks? My answer was simple: I would try to overthrow the Hamas regime and make a deal with Israel under which Gaza would give up its rockets in exchange for a “Marshall Plan” that would feed and normalize its residence. Such a plan would require international inspection of imports and the end of the “tunnel economy” that has enriched Hamas leaders and allowed the importation of lethal rockets. The current Hamas leadership is unlikely to accept any plan that takes away their money and weapons, but if the people of Gaza were to demand change—a real “Gaza Spring”—anything is possible.

Many years ago Golda Meir engaged in hyperbolic overgeneralization when she said that peace will come “when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel.” Most Palestinians love their children. Many do hate Israel, because they have been taught to hate for generations. But more and more of them are coming to realize that the real enemy is not Israel, which left the Gaza Strip in 2005 and offered to leave most of the West Bank in 2000, 2001 and 2007. The real enemies of the Palestinians are those Hamas leaders who do in fact love Palestinian children less than they hate Israel. That’s why they are prepared to use these children as human sacrifices in their efforts to destroy the nation state of the Jewish people.

There will be peace between Israel and the Palestinians only when the Palestinians overthrow or vote out the violent theocrats and kleptocrats of Hamas—or unless Hamas can be induced by the citizens of Gaza to change its destructive policies. The alternative will be a Gaza in which civilians continue to pay the heavy price for Hamas’ hatred of Israel and contempt for its own citizens.
.





back to xxx

[Armistead]

Yes, and early support for Hamas as a counter to the PLO has certainly given Israel a bitter harvest.

Well, like I said, Israel could pack up and leave and give it all to them and in less than 5 years they would turn the area into another ME craphole. Course, it would still be someone elses fault.

[Catfish]

Despite all this Israel bashing seemingly à la mode recently, i have to say Israel behaves relatively calm and sober, which astonishes me a bit thinking of Netanahu and his (medial, ahem :03:) reputation.

Great article, Mr Dershovitz. If only they would give their own 'leaders' and the Hamas hell. I understand though it is not that easy to really stand up and do something.


O.T.: just heard ISIS wants to re-introduce female circumcision (is this the right term, for cutting off the clitoris). If i were a woman in that region i would know what to do with those ... [add very bad infraction here] :nope:

[Skybird]

The captain of the football team from Haifa meanwhile saw himself under pressure and reacted by announcing publicly that his team - mind you, mixed Israeli-Arab composition! - had any right to defend itself and to protect the younger players against thugs who attacked them with sticks and even knifes.

There were voices raised that criticised that the players did not just run away (and allowed the risk to get caught and beaten up), but instead formed a united group that fought back, preventing that any player was injured by the attackers.

The German party Die Linke, successor of the GDR-communists and formed by Western communists and Eastern SED regime fans, meanwhile tries its best to relativise the Arab hate to be seen on German streets, and blaming Israel once again, implying that it deserves it and has caused it all by themsleves.

The rocket rain on Israeli civilian targets and the murderous abuse of Gaza civilians by Hamas usually do not get mentioned. Nor do they lose one word on Hamas using Hospital as rocket platforms and ammo stores.

I read an assessment by a former leading Shin Bet man, who said the complete destruction of Hamas weapin stockpiles and infraysxtructure as well as the tunnel system could be done, but precondition for that would be the compete occupation of Gaza, and the task, while militarily doable, would take around two years. He also said that they were close to shut down and Annihilate Hamas in 2009's campaign, but that the politicians decided to stop before the task was accomplished. - Nevertheless, the man is critical of Israel, and claims he still thinks there could be a two state solution. So, even Israeli top spies are not free from illusions.

Maybe illusions born from despair over a hopeless future perspective.

For me, the two state solution is "deader than dead". It never lived and was a stillbirth from start on.

[Jimbuna]

The death toll is now more than 800 Palestinians and 35 Israelis

Efforts to secure a ceasefire between Israel and the militant Hamas movement are intensifying as the death toll in the 18-day conflict continues to climb.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28478792

[Oberon]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1499673/dat-face-soldier-o.gif

[Skybird]

The Israeli ambassador to Germany, Yakov Hadas-Handelsman, hit the nail on top with this summary: "Israel protects its civilian population with missiles, Hamas protects its rockets with civilians".

In Berlin, finally pressure has been put on the street and the police released very tight rules for today's feared Al Quds-day protests. As a result from that, instead of some thousand aggressive protesters only a few hundred Arab demonstrators so far have made it to the Adenauer Plaza were their demonstration was planned to begin. Police is said to be present with 1000 troopers, while expecting intiially 1500, later 3000 demonstrators. Currently, it is only a few hundred.

One and a half year ago, my house block was in the centre of an area where a Neonazi demonstration took place, the crossroad 80m from my window. 150 nazis came from all Germany, some sympathiszers more, in special trains directed by the police - and 5000 troopers turned the whole block into a temporary prison, us residents were not allowed to leave our houses, or to get to our houses if we were outside the zone when they shut down. Public resistence was immense, you could almost feel sadness for those poor Naziboys. They held a stupid speech for 30 minutes, revealing what an unlimited vacuum they had inside their shiny heads, and then were put into a cordon by the police and led back to the train station, through streets as controlled and isolated as if the American president's limousine was passing.

How very different both events are dealt with.

[Tribesman]

The captain of the football team from Haifa meanwhile saw himself under pressure and reacted by announcing publicly that his team

Does the vice captain explain why he was the first person there who resorted to violence?

had any right to defend itself and to protect the younger players against thugs who attacked them with sticks and even knifes.

Wow sticks and knives:har::har::har::har:
That should cause some sort of injury, you know getting attacked by a mob with weapons

There were voices raised that criticised that the players did not just run away (and allowed the risk to get caught and beaten up),
Hold on you claimed the players were chased around the field and beaten up.
Are you making up this rubbish as you go along?:doh:

but instead formed a united group that fought back

How can they fight back if they throw the first punch?:hmmm:
Seems to me that you are making no sense at all:yep:

[Alex]

There's a lot of truth to this bit of Israeli propaganda:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/israel_palestine_cartoon.gif

The rocket rain on Israeli civilian targets and the murderous abuse of Gaza civilians by Hamas usually do not get mentioned. Nor do they lose one word on Hamas using Hospital as rocket platforms and ammo stores.

The Israeli ambassador to Germany, Yakov Hadas-Handelsman, hit the nail on top with this summary: "Israel protects its civilian population with missiles, Hamas protects its rockets with civilians".

http://b8.eu.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/7/38495147IxZ.gif

Gaza, Israel and ‘Human Shields’ by Sarah Gillespie - 24 Jul 2014

What does it mean to use human shields? Employed by the Germans and Japanese in the second word war, the tactic is premised on an underlying trust in your enemy’s humanity. It appeals to the compassion and mercy of the combatant that they not slaughter the innocent in order to avenge their target. The ’shield’ is not the human bodies surrounding the ‘guilty’ party, the shield is the clemency that mankind instinctively affords the innocent. The shield evaporates only when confronted by an enemy who is not merely a fellow solder locked in a power battle, but a psychopath unconcerned with the pain of others. Such is the case with the Hamas. They are faced with an enemy who is willing to obliterate pregnant women, babies, kids, handicapped people, schools and crowded hospitals in order to smash their target. The Israelis repeatedly demonstrate a pathological disregard for any life that is not a Jewish life, and it is for this reason alone, that the Hamas are utterly incapable of ever using ‘human shields.’
However, Netanyahu, pro Israeli media and Zionist supporters can’t resist endlessly recycling their trope that the Hamas use civilians to guard their rockets. They are clearly flummoxed as to why this assertion does nothing to quell the snowballing international outrage at the massacres they are committing. Their argument attempts to plant in our minds the notion that the Hamas actively invite the Israeli military to slaughter and maim innocents and, in doing so, prove that their savagery deserves to be annihilated. Paradoxically therefore, according to the twisted logic of Zionists, the more innocent Palestinians that die, the worse the Palestinians are. As a collective they are guilty of being innocent.
But this propaganda ploy doesn’t work. Not only does it not work, it boomerangs completely. Every time a Zionist apologist repeats their ‘human shield’ accusations they merely advertise their own deficit of basic humanity. They tell us ‘the Hamas think we have empathy for our fellow human beings, but if you look at the casualty figures, you’ll see how mistaken they are.’
The other issues at play here are the rights of the Palestinians to defend themselves and the pragmatics of warfare in a refugee camp. Israel is extremely fond of telling the world that they have the right to defend themselves. They enjoy a nuclear arsenal, cutting edge American weaponry and the formidable Iron Dome technology. Yet, although Israel constantly brags about its own egalitarian credentials, for some reason Israel refuses to grant the Palestinian people this same intrinsic right to defense that it demands for itself. Palestinians are not allowed to protect themselves. They are not allowed to fight. Instead we are invited to imagine that it is somehow acceptable for the Palestinians to have no weaponry whatsoever, no army, no solders, no rights. We are lead to believe that the only way for Palestinians to prove their integrity, is to lie down like lambs and quietly live out the unspeakably miserable lives of squalor, poverty and despair that Israel has designed for them. In short, Israel wishes the Palestinians were suicidal but, inconveniently, they keep proving to us that they are not.
Obviously asking a people to passively embrace their own ethnic cleansing is implausible. One would hope that the Jews, more than anyone, might be capable of grasping such a fundamental truth – but sadly not. Given then, that the people of Gaza, like any other human beings, have right to defense, where exactly should they store their weapons? In the rolling valleys and tumbling hills of Haraat al-Daraj? Amid the fauna-filled acres of Shuja’iyya? Gaza is home to approximately 1.8 million people, it is 25 miles long by 5 to 7 miles wide and sealed by both an Egyptian and Israeli blockade. It is the most crowded open air prison on earth. The only place to feasibly store weapons is inevitably in the proximity of the people forced to live there cheek by jowl. Israel has now ordered some 43% of the territory to be evacuated. But where to? The Kafka-esque request to insist people go, knowing there is nowhere to go to, is clearly there to benefit Israeli PR, not save lives. And it doesn’t fool anyone. There are currently hundreds of thousands of displaced. The schools that have opened to receive those fleeing are already overflowing and Palestinians that endured the bombings of schools during Operation cast Lead, know that even a so called ‘refuge’ can not guarantee safety. Lets be clear: the only people putting the Palestinians in danger are the Israelis. The only people killing innocent people are the Israelis. The Hamas may not be the party that the chattering classes of the West would want to govern them, but they are democratically elected and they have as much right as Israel, Britain, France and America to fight against an oppressor that quite literally wants to ‘wipe them off the map.’ They face a tough job, but one thing they can’t do is use human shields against an enemy that doesn’t recognise them as human.:rolleyes:

[Oberon]

How was the day trip to Sarcelles?

[Tribesman]

How was the day trip to Sarcelles?
:haha:

[Armistead]

a simple explanation of the problem with Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJA0g4ONt5c

[Tribesman]

a simple explanation of the problem with Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJA0g4ONt5c
Is that the bloke that is described by a reknowned Jewish foundation as prattling ignorant misinformed bigoted and flat out wrong?
Damn they even called him un-american:har:

[Schroeder]

a simple explanation of the problem with Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJA0g4ONt5c
That thing had "propaganda" and "bias" written all over it....:nope:

It's not that simple. There is for example the issue that Jerusalem is considered a holy place by both religions. That is a big issue to hardliners of both sides that wasn't even mentioned in the video (knock out in round one if you ask me :dead:).
Then there is the problem with Jewish settlements in Arab parts of Jerusalem and the West Bank which caused a massive sway of opinion in Germany on who the aggressor is (Israel bashing seems to be the new popular sport here while Israel was the guy who couldn't do wrong just 20 years ago). Israel shot itself in the foot big time with that when it comes to public support in other nations and is definitely not helping the "peace process" (which is a bad joke anyway). So just pointing on one side doesn't do it. However I agree with that I rather see a Jewish state down there than another Arab hell hole. But the video is right on one thing, the moment Israel lays down it's weapons they'll be butchered to the last person.

[Skybird]

The problem with the Western anger about Jewish settlements in eat Jerusalem and many other parts is that all too often these settlement and buildings get build in places (not always, but very often!) that according to the long-since dead treaty drafts of the past would in a two state solution be part of the Israeli territories then anyway.

But that the mainline media almost never mention.

[Tribesman]

That thing had "propaganda" and "bias" written all over it....:nope:

If an organisation dedicated to the security and continuity of the Jewish people and the State of Israel describes him as ignorant prattling mis informed bigoted and flat out wrong I think "propaganda" and "bias" are a bit of an understatement.:03:

[Schroeder]

The problem with the Western anger about Jewish settlements in eat Jerusalem and many other parts is that all too often these settlement and buildings get build in places (not always, but very often!) that according to the long-since dead treaty drafts of the past would in a two state solution be part of the Israeli territories then anyway.

But that the mainline media almost never mention.
I highlighted the problem. Long dead draft doesn't mean present day right to build something there.

[Skybird]

He, I am no fan of the two state "solution" either, it just cannot work. But Israel never has agreed to split Jerusalem, and de facto it is currently under their administraiton and control. They have any right there is to build. That Arabs claim the city to be theirs, currently is their problem, not Israel's. And most department blocks that are planned to be build (sometimes in years!) in East Jerusalem, by the nowaday so much recalled and remembered and celebrated drafts for a two state solution, by that paper would be Israel's anyway. They are building most of these blocks on soil that currently is theirs and in the future would be theirs, too.

BTW, you forgot the Christains when saying the city is "holy" two both religions. Should Christians now send troops to occupy some part of it, or send waves of Christian migrants to outbreed local populations of Jews and Arabs in some districts?

---

The demonstrations in Berlin in the end saw around 1500-2000 protesters. The showing of racist slogans and hate speech was cut down by quantity, but some posters and slogans qualifying ofr that nevertheless were still shown without polcie taking action. I assume by today's double-tongued standads they think this already is a success. Politicians today are so eager to "mark where they stand", and to put up a signal and an indicative sign to influence some events. "Ein Zeichen setzen gegen XYZ" - the new German hobby, it seems.

I think politicians talking endlessly to show the world this and that - they should go into the park and piss against a tree to leave their markers.

[Tribesman]

But Israel never has agreed to split Jerusalem
Wrong, when the emerging Israel did the deal with Jordan to both sieze territory designated to be allocated to the arab state they also agreed to split the corpus seperatum.


and de facto it is currently under their administraiton and control.
yes, as an occupying power with all the attendant legal obligations and restrictions.

They have any right there is to build
Errrrr....no, they are under the obligations and restrictions of an occupying power.

That Arabs claim the city to be theirs, currently is their problem, not Israel's

No, it is both of their problems until a solution is reached.

And most department blocks that are planned to be build (sometimes in years!) in East Jerusalem,
You mean occupied East Jerusalem.

by the nowaday so much recalled and remembered and celebrated drafts for a two state solution, by that paper would be Israel's anyway.
Really ?
please show these drafts on the long running Jerusalem impasse which award the current occupying power all the land in the municipality:har::har::har::har::har:
The only drafts dealing with the issue in a whole on the municipality cover the transition from the current legal standing of corpus seperatum to a new corpus seperatum in the form of an open city.:yep:

They are building most of these blocks on soil that currently is theirs and in the future would be theirs, too.


The first part is completely wrong, the second part is pure conjecture.

Well that's quite some feat you managed, how did you manage to get so much so completely wrong in such a short passage?:rotfl2:
Perhaps you should try 242, 252 and 476 just to get a little basic information Add in 478 for good measure. Then perhaps it would be possible for you to write something on a subject and not commit such obviously ludicrous howlers.
Or alternately, simply ignore facts and just spout more nonsense again.

[Armistead]

Well, the problem is this...the Jews have always been there and the Muslims want them dead. There's nothing Israel will ever do to please Hamas or whoever, they don't believe Israel has a right to exist and all the surrounding players have brought war and terror on them. They should've kept the land they took when warred upon.

So stop talking about a solution, cause the fact is one side does want the other totally gone or dead and nothing you give them will ever stop them from seeking that..

[Oberon]

Well, the problem is this...the Jews have always been there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

http://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/

[Tribesman]

Well, the problem is this...the Jews have always been there and the Muslims want them dead.
Since they have always been there and the muslims want them dead they have done bloody well to survice living under the muslims for over a thousand years before the foundation of the state of Israel.
Unless of course what you wrote is not true, which would be an easier explaination of how they have lived there for so long.

[Armistead]

Without looking I bet one of those is the cartoon of all the killing through the years...:D

[Armistead]

Since they have always been there and the muslims want them dead they have done bloody well to survice living under the muslims for over a thousand years before the foundation of the state of Israel.
Unless of course what you wrote is not true, which would be an easier explaination of how they have lived there for so long.

Done very well ---surviving----is the key word.

Just admit....you know Hamas and other Muslims there want them wiped from the face of the earth and would do so at any opportunity...then go back to wiping each other out...

[Oberon]

Without looking I bet one of those is the cartoon of all the killing through the years...:D

Yarp

Which brings us to the conclusion that the land of Israel belongs only to one entity.

http://www.funeraire-info.fr/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/150327_455327442354_260589297354_5665744_2408841_n .jpg

[Tribesman]

Done very well ---surviving----is the key word.

Oh if you want a better word it is available.
You see when the jews were expelled from Europe under the wonderful convert or die and convert and die loving christians they ended up being welcomed by this thing called the ottoman empire.
The word you want is thrived not survived.
Now I hate to break it to ya, but that Ottoman thingy was kinda muslim you know.
Shocking ain't it:rotfl2:

[Armistead]

Oh if you want a better word it is available.
You see when the jews were expelled from Europe under the wonderful convert or die and convert and die loving christians they ended up being welcomed by this thing called the ottoman empire.
The word you want is thrived not survived.
Now I hate to break it to ya, but that Ottoman thingy was kinda muslim you know.
Shocking ain't it:rotfl2:

This is true, that for a period the Muslims treated Jews better than Christians, but not sure that's a valid point either way. The fact still, during the "Golden Age" Jews were constantly killed or expelled for any lil offense to the Prophet, but overall they prospered for a period during the Ottoman period.

But Islam remains in the dark ages today, is the problem and you know very well Islam would love to rid the earth of Israel by any means and will continue to try to do so.....regardless of all the spin and propaganda. The people chose Hamas....their hate and indoctrination, now they get to suffer under them. You think they would wise up....but sadly their blind faith won't let them reason.

[Oberon]

The people chose Hamas....their hate and indoctrination, now they get to suffer under them. You think they would wise up....but sadly their blind faith won't let them reason.

Isn't that a bit like saying that you chose Obama to be your president, even if you voted Republican? :hmmm:

[MH]

Isn't that a bit like saying that you chose Obama to be your president, even if you voted Republican? :hmmm:

Hamas had enough support to take over Gaza so some did chose them.
It wasn't just a small bunch that took over with few AK-47s.
They kicked out Fatah and executed many with approval and applauding of crowds.
So yes... lets not generalize not all of them are bad people and so on...but there is an issue at hand to deal with.
Gaza is generally speaking extreme....

Hypothetically if KKK takes over USA one will have to ask what happened to American people even though many of them portably are good folks...
It would require certain state of mind in general population for this to happen.

[Oberon]

It would require certain state of mind in general population for this to happen.

And people with guns who ruthlessly crush the opposition. That helps too.
You either go with the flow or you disappear, most people choose to go with the flow, even if it results in Israeli bombs landing in their living room.

[Armistead]

Isn't that a bit like saying that you chose Obama to be your president, even if you voted Republican? :hmmm:


Accepting and willful servitude are two different things. Really, you would think the ME would come out of the dark ages, but they cannot...they must be forced out somehow. In the end I think it would be better for them, for if not fighting us, they kill each others by the millions and often both at the same time. Regardless of the cruelty of it, the ME will remain the skidmark on the underpants of society until the world somehow deals with it before the nukes fly.

[Oberon]

Accepting and willful servitude are two different things. Really, you would think the ME would come out of the dark ages, but they cannot...they must be forced out somehow. In the end I think it would be better for them, for if not fighting us, they kill each others by the millions and often both at the same time. Regardless of the cruelty of it, the MW will remain the skidmark on the underpants of society until the world somehow deals with it before the nukes fly.

So, basically, Deus lo Vult?

[Armistead]

So, basically, Deus lo Vult?

I'm agnostic....

[Armistead]

Hamas had enough support to take over Gaza so some did chose them.
It wasn't just a small bunch that took over with few AK-47s.
They kicked out Fatah and executed many with approval and applauding of crowds.
So yes... lets not generalize not all of them are bad people and so on...but there is an issue at hand to deal with.
Gaza is generally speaking extreme....

Hypothetically if KKK takes over USA one will have to ask what happened to American people even though many of them portably are good folks...
It would require certain state of mind in general population for this to happen.


The same general mind exist in other parts of the world as well....{looks south while typing}

[Tribesman]

This is true, that for a period the Muslims treated Jews better than Christians, but not sure that's a valid point either way.
Does it show that your statement made no sense?
That was the point.

But Islam remains in the dark ages today
Remains? I thought you just conceded that it wasn't in them before.

Now you could try "some muslims today have adopted a dark age mentality", its accurate, but by being accurate it loses all the impact you wanted in the sweeping statement you made.

you know very well Islam would love to rid the earth of Israel by any means and will continue to try to do so.....
Getting rid of Israel, that is somewhat different from your earlier statement of killing all jews isn't it.

The people chose Hamas....their hate and indoctrination, now they get to suffer under them.
Lets see, the main choice offered was a party with a long record of corruption and a party with a good PR campaign.
Hardly much choice is it, one party got 3.02% more votes than the other.
Certainly not really the basis for condemning an entire population is it?

You think they would wise up....but sadly their blind faith won't let them reason.
Now I would have thought the obvious problem was lack of choice not blind faith.
I am sure you are personally aware of the problems you face with choice in a political system which is dominated by two parties eh?

[MH]

And people with guns who ruthlessly crush the opposition. That helps too.
You either go with the flow or you disappear, most people choose to go with the flow, even if it results in Israeli bombs landing in their living room.

Yes that is how it works...
Unless you know how to talk them out of doing their thing.

[Oberon]

Yes that is how it works...
Unless you know how to talk them out of doing their thing.

I dare say there have been many who tried, but as we all know, when someone has got it into their head that they are right and that their cause is just and right, then there's absolutely no dissuading them. Furthermore, if they are in control of the guns and you are not then you are just as likely to be shot for trying to persuade them.

[Armistead]

Does it show that your statement made no sense?
That was the point.


Remains? I thought you just conceded that it wasn't in them before.

Now you could try "some muslims today have adopted a dark age mentality", its accurate, but by being accurate it loses all the impact you wanted in the sweeping statement you made.


Getting rid of Israel, that is somewhat different from your earlier statement of killing all jews isn't it.


Lets see, the main choice offered was a party with a long record of corruption and a party with a good PR campaign.
Hardly much choice is it, one party got 3.02% more votes than the other.
Certainly not really the basis for condemning an entire population is it?


Now I would have thought the obvious problem was lack of choice not blind faith.
I am sure you are personally aware of the problems you face with choice in a political system which is dominated by two parties eh?


Sorry, this PC will not MQ...but

So if someones hits you in the face and I only slap you, does that make me a good man...

Again, this is a culture of the people, that for the people they haven't been able to rise out of it. One must ask why! The answer is difficult I know, a people so indoctrinated generation after generation, seemingly with no movement to rise them out of the stupidity that damns them to misery. Sure you know Islam was once rising to the top in science, math, philosophy, but only for a period before it was replaced with radical concepts. Sure, other factors involved, but it was mainly going radical....and basically stayed that way since. It seems true Islam cannot coexist with science, philosophy or advanced education.

Like the old woman I saw in her full burka on TV in Gaza, her home in rubble behind her, screaming we will never stop until Israel is no more...May she enjoy cooking over her fire....outside.

See Israel has offered numerous extensions to the cease fire, refused by Hamas. Yes, they say they reject because soldiers still looking for tunnels, etc., but how stupid can you be. They'll move more rockets into civilian areas and more people will die. It's really time to crank it up, take out power grids, any govt. building, etc...Nice war never works.

See Libya is back killing each other.....Allahu Akbar............yea, right!

[Tribesman]

So if someones hits you in the face and I only slap you, does that make me a good man...
It all depends, what purpose does the slap serve, does it serve its purpose?
If it serves no purpose or fails to serve its intended purpose then the description would be silly man not good man

Again, this is a culture of the people, that for the people they haven't been able to rise out of it. One must ask why! The answer is difficult I know, a people so indoctrinated generation after generation, seemingly with no movement to rise them out of the stupidity that damns them to misery. There are lots of movements there always have been , but nuts with guns and bombs tend to make more noise and get noticed more.

Sure you know Islam was once rising to the top in science, math, philosophy, but only for a period before it was replaced with radical concepts. Sure, other factors involved, but it was mainly going radical....and basically stayed that way since. It seems true Islam cannot coexist with science, philosophy or advanced education Seems like you are coming up with the same "true islam" rubbish again.:nope:

See Israel has offered numerous extensions to the cease fire, refused by Hamas. Is that the ceasefire Israel spent many days refusing to implement?

Yes, they say they reject because soldiers still looking for tunnels, etc., but how stupid can you be. You mean the ceasefire is a ceasefire where one side continues military operations against the other?
Doesn't sound like much of a ceasefire being offered.
But I suppose its better than the earlier "rejection" of the ceasefire that was never offered:03:

It's really time to crank it up, take out power grids Can you tell me how much power the grids supply during normal times?
That isn't cranking it up much is it.
Bit of a problem with their legal obligations too isn't it.

any govt. building, etc... You mean like the shipping container that was once used for fish inspections where those four young kids got killed in front of the journalists?
Yeah that sounds like a great idea:rotfl2:

Nice war never works.
But does nasty war?
Lets face it human shields massacres and random bombing of civilian areas havn't served them too well in the past.
In fact it seems to always come out very quickly as counter productive.

See Libya is back killing each other.....Allahu Akbar............yea, right! Yeah right, and which of the many sides there are the muslims or the true muslims?

[Armistead]

You just can't accept the radicals really are following true Islam.....

And you know they would kill every Jew in Israel if they could and drive them out... Lucky with so much in fighting and being hindered by Islam they could never progress enough to gain real war weapons.....

They've had numerous chances to have a two state solution, they don't want it because they believe Israel shouldn't exist at all.

[Tribesman]

You just can't accept the radicals really are following true Islam.....

Since their scripture condemns their actions that's an easy thing to accept, perhaps you should try it sometime.

And you know they would kill every Jew in Israel if they could and drive them out...
Who would, the muslims or the nuts?
Would the nuts be equivalent to the nuts who believe G*d told them they can take all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates and make it a mono religious state by getting rid of all the people who already live there?

Lucky with so much in fighting and being hindered by Islam they could never progress enough to gain real war weapons.....

In fighting between muslims? that haram isn't it.
As for muslims getting real weapons, ever heard of Pakistan?
It's this funny little muslim country with nukes.

They've had numerous chances to have a two state solution
Have they?
Can you show some examples of these chances where all the outstanding questions were addressed?

they don't want it because they believe Israel shouldn't exist at all.
Should it exist?
The Balfour declaration makes it clear that it shouldn't exist.
But it does exist.

[Betonov]

Since their scripture condemns their actions that's an easy thing to accept, perhaps you should try it sometime.



The Quran is like the Bible.
The biggest nutters never read it. Just thump it

[Tribesman]

The Quran is like the Bible.
The biggest nutters never read it. Just thump it

Yep, the problem with Armisteads approach is obvious.
Take two groups each contain some nuts.
Groups A contains some nuts so all of group A is nuts.
Group B contains some nuts so the nuts in group B are nuts but not the rest of group B as they are not nuts.

It really doesn't compute.
Same with his approach to the localised situation.
Both sides do things that are very wrong, both sides have leaders who blatantly do wrong and block any peace initiatives.
Yet somehow only one side does those things in his book so only one side is to blame.

When there are crazies on all sides apportion blame to the crazies on all sides, doing otherwise and blaming only one set of nuts is just dishonest.

[Skybird]

The rockets shot by Hamas at Ben Gurion mark the end of a two state solution, the author argues. It would be irresponsible to allow it anymore.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4467/hamas-israel-airport

Meanwhile, Turkey lets follow its hateful tirades against Israel (declaring Israel'S defence against terror a more barbarian crime than the genocide done by the Nazis) solid deeds. The Turkish support for ISIS cannot be ignored by the Wets anymore. The Eu pays billions in union-preparing funds, just to see the Turks funding, hosting, equipping and lodging a terror army that is so barbaric that even Al Quaeda does not want to be linked to them?

I never have been a fan of Turkey since I had been there, and it is not the first unacceptable "misstep" by Ankara in the past ten years in whcih it constantly moved from bad to worse, but this now stinks so beastly to the heavens that I cannot see a single argument anymore why the Turks are not kicked out of NATO. Throw them out. Now. And stop paying EU funds for this regime.

But Western stink-lovers just will not do that, especially not in Brussel and especially not in Washington. The hypocritical American attitude of that a bloody bastard nevertheless will be supported and held up as long as it is their bloody bastard (so much for this claim over ideals), is a misled American self-deception. Turkey is not America's bastard anymore. Not since many years already. It has since long time become a real threat to American and European interests. And that is not just Erdoghan, though he gives the ugly face Turkey shows the world, the loudest voice in the concert. I hope he stay sin power, because as soon as he gives up power, these useful idiots in Brussel immediately will claim that now things will all of a sudden be better again with Turkey, and that this should be helped by getting Turkey into the EU. I prefer an angry poisonous viper in my trousers to that prospect of letting Turkey deeper into the West than it already has penetrated

Turkey as an critical issue to be dealt and fought against, should rate far higher in importance-perception than the Ukraine war and Putin's Russia.

[Tribesman]

rockets shot by Hamas at Ben Gurion mark the end of a two state solution, the author argues.
When putting forward an argument it is wise to avoid authors who have proposed solutions which are deemed war crimes.
After all pinning your flag to things like Marzbutto Lidice or Oradour carry a rather nasty flag with them.

[Skybird]

Too bad that the grim black humour in this is only accessible for those who understand German language. But I feel too lazy to translate it.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/neuer_israelischer_friedensplan_bringt_durchbruch_ in_nahost

[Jimbuna]

Too bad that the grim black humour in this is only accessible for those who understand German language. But I feel too lazy to translate it.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/neuer_israelischer_friedensplan_bringt_durchbruch_ in_nahost

Depends on what programme you view the link with...Chrome gives you a translation option.

[MH]

The rockets shot by Hamas at Ben Gurion mark the end of a two state solution, the author argues. It would be irresponsible to allow it anymore.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/44...israel-airport (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4467/hamas-israel-airport)
This article is spot on.
This always had been the concern when putting forward two state solution , not the settlement mantra.
...Lebensraum sound cooler though lol.
Every one is talking about Lebensraum abroad but very few actually care about this issue around here.
As skybird motioned earlier somewhere in this thread , the controversial scandals about Israeli building in parts of Jerusalem are utter nonsense.
It is well known to both sides that those neighborhoods will stay in Israel when it comes to political solution.
It is just a show for you folks all over the world.

Not saying that when need arises removing the settlements deep within west bank would not be big political problem for Israel but I thing it would be very match doable in case serious solution was reached to this whole mess.

[Armistead]

Yep, the problem with Armisteads approach is obvious.
Take two groups each contain some nuts.
Groups A contains some nuts so all of group A is nuts.
Group B contains some nuts so the nuts in group B are nuts but not the rest of group B as they are not nuts.

It really doesn't compute.
Same with his approach to the localised situation.
Both sides do things that are very wrong, both sides have leaders who blatantly do wrong and block any peace initiatives.
Yet somehow only one side does those things in his book so only one side is to blame.

When there are crazies on all sides apportion blame to the crazies on all sides, doing otherwise and blaming only one set of nuts is just dishonest.


Hamas leaders, including Ismail Haniyah and Khaled Meshaal have also stated repeatedly that

"Palestine – from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, from its north to its south – is our land, our right, and our homeland. There will be no relinquishing or forsaking even an inch or small part of it,"[11] and that "we shall not relinquish the Islamic waqf on the land of Palestine, and Jerusalem shall not be divided into Western and Eastern Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a single united [city], and Palestine stretches from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and from Naqoura [Rosh Ha-Niqra] to Umm Al-Rashrash [Eilat] in the south."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

A few nuts on each side....right! Hamas is trying some secular propaganda more, but its lies compared to what they write, speeches in other lands, how they educate....

They think eventually that ants will take down an elephant...

[Skybird]

I have just read about Kerry's latest "proposal", and can only shake my head and wonder whether that guy simply is suffering from early senility, or is on the payroll of Hamas. Hopelessly disconnected from reality, and in strong defence of all Hamas key demands. What Kerry has achieved is to have all Israeli cabinet members united against him - and that means something in that coalition, until here the cabinet's very different ministers were split.

The Americans do their best to do unrepairable damage to their relation with Israel. Obama since years digs a grave for that relation, since his Cairo speech at the latest, but what Kerry says now has a new dimension, and leaves no doubt on whose side the administration is on. And that is not Israel.

No wonder that Kerry is outraged about the media having published secret protocols of his talks with the Israelis. If I would talk such surreal BS and betray so,mebody of whom I claim he is my partner, I would be outraged about having the mask ripped of my face, too.

I never believed I would ever say that: but Obama does even greater strategic damage, than Bush's 2003 adventure did. The American reputation throughout the ME is in ruins. Not even pragmatically allied Arab nations trust the US anymore - or care for what it says and wants. After Bush, there was anger. After Obama, there is just contempt.

[MH]

]have jujst read about Kerry latest "proposal", and can on ly shook my head and wionder whnether that guy simply is suffering from ealr ysenility, or is on the payroll of Hamas

He red the article in German and knowing you have no sense of humor thought it might be a good idea.

[Jimbuna]

Hamas have not agreed the additional 24 hour ceasefire that was on offer and have recommenced firing rockets into Israeili territory.

Their choice has been made by themselves and Israel appear to have little choice other than to protect themselves.

A right royal mess but atm there doesn't appear to be any alternative option to either side.

[Oberon]

TBH the US wants out of the ME and fast, I mean, like yesterday. Hence the fracking bonanza, and so they can afford to foul up their relations with the Middle East. I think that the Democrats want to distance themselves from Israel too, since it's (and I mean this with no offence to Israel) the US's DPRK. Most of the world unites in condemnation against it, but the US is obligated to defend it at the UN and militarily, just as the PRC is obligated to offer the same assurances to the DPRK. However, even the PRC is beginning to tire of the DPRKs shenanigans, and I think that in some circles in Washington the same thing is happening with Israel.
Of course, such a thing means little to Tel Aviv, which is more concerned with the situation on the ground, but the more propaganda ammunition it gives the likes of Hamas and Fatah, the more pressure it's going to put on Washington to sever its link with Israel as a part of its Middle East disengagement process, and while it would not be the end of the world for Israel in the short term, it would make things difficult in the long term.
Germany will always have Israels back, this much is certain, and by definition the European Union, but certainly it will strain the links inside the EU if Israel was to move from the US's sphere of influence into the EUs.

[Skybird]

That Kerry tries to bring Turkey and Quatar - both extremely friendly and supportive to Hamas, both being very opposing and rivalling to Egypt, and Turkey now being openly hostile to Israel - into play, doe snot make it any better, but the opposite. I think that maybe this is a side strategy of Wahsington: to not nonly weaken Israel, but Egypt as well. It is very suspicious with what energy Obama tries to support fundamentalist regime changes and wekanes resistance tio such regimes, may it be in form of Israel, may it be in form of Egypt's re-revolution and cracking down on the MB. That Obama since years refuses to draw any consequences on the issues with Turkey and Quatar, also increasingly appears as a telltale signal.

[Armistead]

Sam Harris - Why Don't I Criticize Israel -

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

[Catfish]

Hmm i think a comparison between DPRK and Israel is a bit far-fetched, and, even when it comes to backing super powers, also ethically completely different.

Obama failing, hmm. I think he did all he could to improve the relations with arabian countries at first, but his own country's hawks and of course the stubborness and outright idiocy of some arabian splinter groups fouled that up royally.


But it is one thing to offer collaboration and showing good will despite the past, and a completely other thing to solve other peoples' problems for them - against their will.
So Obama has not failed, some arabian countries have.


Having said that, why does not England (or Great Britain as that), do anything to solve the situation ?
I mean they are not completely innocent to this crappy situation - same with Iran "b.t.w."

And they have much more to settle just when it comes to the Levante, than the USA who at least try something. I have not seen the british prime or foreign affairs minister or anyone of this government doing something in that respect.
Seems they spare their diplomacy for their secret services, fuelling the mess.


I can only say it again and again, England seems to completely forget its own past when it comes to countries like India, Afghanistan, Iran and the establishing of Israel (Balfour etc.). Didn't they also promise something to the arabians and a 'Palestine' back then ? How could they ? And where are they now ?


We can be almost happy that the arabians are NOT united. Because if you look at the past and who did what to whom, some kind of "Jihad" would be the least to be afraid of.

Cheers indeed,
Catfish

[Tribesman]

As skybird motioned earlier somewhere in this thread , the controversial scandals about Israeli building in parts of Jerusalem are utter nonsense.
It is well known to both sides that those neighborhoods will stay in Israel when it comes to political solution.

So you are saying that israel has no intention of following the law, has no intention of ever settling the outstanding issues and has rejected the basic foundation of every peace proposal put forward since some Israeli terrorists murdered the first peace envoy.
Congratulations MH you have put Israel on exactly the same pedestal as the Hamas nuts:up:

It is just a show for you folks all over the world.

So that makes your supporters useful idiots, just like those idiots who support Hamas.
Well done MH you really are on a roll.:rotfl2:


@Armistead

"Palestine – from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, from its north to its south – is our land, our right, and our homeland.
Well at least its a smaller area than the Nile to the Euphrates.:03:

A few nuts on each side....right!
Yes, see above. Lots of nuts on both sides.

[MH]

You can be OJ Simpson lawyer with the right jury of ...not trolls.
Stop plumbing.

[Schroeder]

Germany will always have Israels back, this much is certain
Let another decade pass and I think you can forget about that big time. Israel bashing is pretty en vogue here again.:-?

[Armistead]

Watching a video in Gaza inside a hospital, bloody kid being carried in. Bet there were 12 or more cameras following, getting in the Drs way, following all the way. At times they reached out and uncovered the body to expose wound for filming..

.....but was this not their intent to start with.

[Tribesman]

You can be OJ Simpson lawyer with the right jury of ...not trolls.

You hung yourself with your own statement.
Let me remind you of the message you kindly delivered.
Israel has rejected the basis of every peace proposal, it intends to reject the basis of every peace proposal.
It plays it supporters as useful idiots and you revel in the fact that Israels supporters are stupid.
You have put your nation on a level with the Hamas nuts.

Like I said, well done MH:up:


@armistead
.....but was this not their intent to start with.
Intent? of course it was their intent, which comes back to your punch slap routine earlier.
What purpose does it serve, does it serve its purpose?
If the purpose is to make Israel look bad and it makes Israel look bad then Israel must be pretty dumb to keep on delivering the slaps to Hamas on Hamas request.

[Oberon]

Hmm i think a comparison between DPRK and Israel is a bit far-fetched, and, even when it comes to backing super powers, also ethically completely different.

But both nations are an international weakpoint for their relevant superpowers. You could say the same for Syria, to be honest, with Russia. None of the major superpowers want their international sheet to be anything other than squeeky clean, otherwise it's a headache for the public diplomacy and fodder for international media. Obviously we all know that their sheets are as dirty as any other nation, but superpowers are better at hiding things...usually... :03:

So whenever Israel goes into Gaza and kills some children, this embarrasses the US because while the rest of the world is repugnant in horror, the US is forced to put out the usual 'fight against terrorism' line which people stopped buying about six years ago. Russia, China, and the entire Middle East can shake their fingers and condemn the US for its inaction.
It's politically speaking, a nightmare for Obama, but one that he has ultimately little control over, because no matter what he tells Tel Aviv, they will look out for themselves first. Likewise when Beijing lectures Pyongyang, Pyongyang will do what's best for Pyongyang, not Beijing...if the two happen to coincide then it's good, if they don't, well the consequences for both nations of the destruction of the DPRK or Israel are too detrimental for the PRC and US so they will put up with any embarrassment in order to keep the status quo.


Obama failing, hmm. I think he did all he could to improve the relations with arabian countries at first, but his own country's hawks and of course the stubborness and outright idiocy of some arabian splinter groups fouled that up royally.

That, like everything Obama does from when he gets up to when he goes to bed, differs wildly depending on who you speak to and their political alignment.

But it is one thing to offer collaboration and showing good will despite the past, and a completely other thing to solve other peoples' problems for them - against their will.
So Obama has not failed, some arabian countries have.

A lot of the time it depends on who has the bigger gun or bigger international prestige.

Having said that, why does not England (or Great Britain as that), do anything to solve the situation ?
I mean they are not completely innocent to this crappy situation - same with Iran "b.t.w."

We sent the British 'representative of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair)' to Israel, what more do you want? :O:

Nah, truth be told, we don't have the resources, political power or military power to be a part of any real diplomatic effort in the Middle East. As a part of an European effort, maybe, but alone...not a chance.

And they have much more to settle just when it comes to the Levante, than the USA who at least try something. I have not seen the british prime or foreign affairs minister or anyone of this government doing something in that respect.
Seems they spare their diplomacy for their secret services, fuelling the mess.

I can only say it again and again, England seems to completely forget its own past when it comes to countries like India, Afghanistan, Iran and the establishing of Israel (Balfour etc.). Didn't they also promise something to the arabians and a 'Palestine' back then ? How could they ? And where are they now ?

The Sykes-Picot agreement (which was a British and French agreement, I might add) certainly has a lot to answer for, and we are seeing a lot of fallout from decisions made a hundred years ago. However, again, you've got to remember, we're not the nation we were a hundred years ago, we do not have the power we had back then. America does.
We do certainly have efforts in hand in the Middle East, Blair is just one part of it (somewhere very far away from it one hopes) but we don't tend to boast about these things, nor make them public.
People tend to underestimate the daily effort of diplomats around the world, in favour of reaching for quick soundbites from big meetings. Big meetings only take place after dozens of smaller meetings, Prime Ministers only take to Presidents after dozens of civil servents and diplomats have plyed their trade. They are the real workhorses of the political world, not the likes of John Kerry, or Tony Blair, or even Cameron and Obama, and aside from the occasional Wikileaks, the messages and efforts of these diplomatic staff are very rarely ever known about...which is probably just as well to be honest.

We can be almost happy that the arabians are NOT united. Because if you look at the past and who did what to whom, some kind of "Jihad" would be the least to be afraid of.

Cheers indeed,
Catfish


There have been to-and-fros between the Middle East and Europe since...well, since recorded history began. First with the Greeks, then the Romans, the Byzantines, the Crusades, the European settlements post-WWI, etc, etc. This is just another round of a story that's been going on for a very long time...and will doubtlessly go on for long after you and I are dead.

[Oberon]

Watching a video in Gaza inside a hospital, bloody kid being carried in. Bet there were 12 or more cameras following, getting in the Drs way, following all the way. At times they reached out and uncovered the body to expose wound for filming..

.....but was this not their intent to start with.

Blood gets ratings, doublely so if it's the blood of children, Israel has the smaller amount of blood than Gaza, therefore there's more cameras in Gaza.
If Iron Dome didn't exist and Israel was taking a battering equal to that of Gaza, then this thread and the international response to this situation would be wildly different.