Israel ..more rockets

[MH]

You hung yourself with your own statement.
Let me remind you of the message you kindly delivered.
Israel has rejected the basis of every peace proposal, it intends to reject the basis of every peace proposal.
It plays it supporters as useful idiots and you revel in the fact that Israels supporters are stupid.
You have put your nation on a level with the Hamas nuts.

Like I said, well done MH:up:


.

Yes yes I understand .....
But I rather watch porn than having this game ... :rotfl2:
So carry on my friend.:)

[Armistead]

You hung yourself with your own statement.
Let me remind you of the message you kindly delivered.
Israel has rejected the basis of every peace proposal, it intends to reject the basis of every peace proposal.
It plays it supporters as useful idiots and you revel in the fact that Israels supporters are stupid.
You have put your nation on a level with the Hamas nuts.

Like I said, well done MH:up:


@armistead

Intent? of course it was their intent, which comes back to your punch slap routine earlier.
What purpose does it serve, does it serve its purpose?
If the purpose is to make Israel look bad and it makes Israel look bad then Israel must be pretty dumb to keep on delivering the slaps to Hamas on Hamas request.

Big fan of MSNBC, ignore the facts and blame everyone except those causing the problem.

[MH]

Blood gets ratings, doublely so if it's the blood of children, Israel has the smaller amount of blood than Gaza, therefore there's more cameras in Gaza.
If Iron Dome didn't exist and Israel was taking a battering equal to that of Gaza, then this thread and the international response to this situation would be wildly different.

Not sure...the response might had be different.
Iron Dome saves lives on both sides.

[Oberon]

Not sure...the response might had be different.
Iron Dome saves lives on both sides.

Well, true, it's not as if the Hamas rockets are particularly accurate, but the death toll is so hopelessly lop-sided in this current crisis that it's almost inevitable which way the cameras are going to go.

[Tribesman]

Big fan of MSNBC, ignore the facts and blame everyone except those causing the problem.

No, blame everyone causing the problem, not just one side, deal with all facts not just some facts that fit nicely into what you want your view to be.
You are the one just wanting to blame one bunch of idiots, blame both bunches of idiots as they are both idiots and both at fault.
Its fair and balanced .....unlike Fox:O:

[Catfish]

Hello Oberon,
thanks for reading (you must be the only one :yep:)

I understand what you mean, but Israel is not the weak spot of the USA - not like Syria or NK for others. Isreal is a democracy, it is leading in a lot of technologies, and it is not using civilians as shields.
And from the last weeks it really seems that Mr. Netanhahu is more reluctant than i feared. Also, a lot of people worldwide accept and understand Israel's position, Syria and NK are not in the same league in any respect.

Likewise when Beijing lectures Pyongyang, Pyongyang will do what's best for Pyongyang, not Beijing...

I really doubt that anything Kim Young Un does, is good for North Korea or anyone, in any respect :hmm2:

[Armistead]

No, blame everyone causing the problem, not just one side, deal with all facts not just some facts that fit nicely into what you want your view to be.
You are the one just wanting to blame one bunch of idiots, blame both bunches of idiots as they are both idiots and both at fault.
Its fair and balanced .....unlike Fox:O:

You're confusing Hamas as mere idiots, they're fanatics....that's the problem.

[Tribesman]

You're confusing Hamas as mere idiots, they're fanatics....that's the problem. Fanatical idiots on both sides, choosing one bunch of idiots over another bunch of idiots just makes people into those "useful fools" both sides like to have around.

[Skybird]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10992921/Hamas-and-North-Korea-in-secret-arms-deal.html

Hamas militants are attempting to negotiate a new arms deal with North Korea for missiles and communications equipment that will allow them to maintain their offensive against Israel, according to Western security sources.

Security officials say the deal between Hamas and North Korea is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and is being handled by a Lebanese-based trading company with close ties to the militant Palestinian organisation based in east Beirut.

Hamas officials are believed to have already made an initial cash down payment to secure the deal, and are now hoping that North Korea will soon begin shipping extra supplies of weapons to Gaza.

“Hamas is looking for ways to replenish its stocks of missiles because of the large numbers it has fired at Israel in recent weeks,” explained a security official. “North Korea is an obvious place to seek supplies because Pyongyang already has close ties with a number of militant Islamist groups in the Middle East.”

(...)

[Schroeder]

Wouldn't that take way too long to be of use in the current conflict? Don't think they'll air drop that stuff.:hmmm:

[Skybird]

They are early - they already think of the time after the humorously so-called "seize-fire" that sooner or later will come once again.

It always all comes once again.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Sam Harris - Why Don't I Criticize Israel -

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
On the whole, the article is pretty spot on. I would like to emphasize that the Israelis have indeed treated palestinians living in Israel as second class citizens, and that has to change before coexistence is solely decided by the palestinians, but after that, the article does a nice job of summarizing the disproportionate ideologies that seperate Israel from the potentially genocidal views of Hamas. Israel takes WAY too much of the share of criticism in this conflict considering all that Hamas has done and reportedly plans to do should they ever succeed.

[Rockstar]

Now Egypt is in the news.

Egypt's army said Sunday it has destroyed 13 more tunnels connecting the Sinai Peninsula to the Gaza Strip, taking to 1,639 the overall number it has laid waste to.

Militant groups say their attacks are in retaliation for a police crackdown on Morsi's supporters. The crackdown has seen more than 1,400 people killed in street clashes.


http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-army-destroys-13-more-gaza-tunnels-093712884.html

[Jimbuna]

Not too many years ago it would have been unthinkable to imagine Egypt helping Israel in any form.

[Dread Knot]

Not too many years ago it would have been unthinkable to imagine Egypt helping Israel in any form.

Some fallout from the Arab Spring has something to do with it recently. The ongoing insurgency in the Sinai gives them no choice but to cooperate. Of the approximately 15 main militant groups operating in the Sinai desert, the most dominant and active groups among them have close relations with the Gaza Strip.

Since 2011, Israel has approved two Egyptian military increases in the Sinai Peninsula above levels set in the Camp David Accords, which mandates that the Sinai must remain demilitarized, with only enough forces in Sinai to enforce security. Israel did so because it is not in it's interest to have rebels running the Sinai either.

[Armistead]

On the whole, the article is pretty spot on. I would like to emphasize that the Israelis have indeed treated palestinians living in Israel as second class citizens, and that has to change before coexistence is solely decided by the palestinians, but after that, the article does a nice job of summarizing the disproportionate ideologies that seperate Israel from the potentially genocidal views of Hamas. Israel takes WAY too much of the share of criticism in this conflict considering all that Hamas has done and reportedly plans to do should they ever succeed.


The restrictions and blockades are due for numerous reasons, but look what Hamas does when it has money and less restrictions, they build massive tunnel systems instead of schools, many into Israel.

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu already declared that the threat caused by the tunnels means Israel cannot accept a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank." Just think of the amount of tunnels that could be built then.

Hamas and the PL people don't want to go through stages of trust, but the fact is one question

How much would you give when you know their goal is to commit genocide on you and take all the land?


The world pressure has forced Israel to give a lot all ready and much it did on it's own after being attacked by every country bordering it one way or the other, not for doing anything wrong, only because they exist.

[Armistead]

They are early - they already think of the time after the humorously so-called "seize-fire" that sooner or later will come once again.

It always all comes once again.


It's shameful the world is putting so much pressure on Israel. Lot's of reports the people of Gaza are getting tired and fed up with Hamas.....Israel should finish the war, make it much more terrible and break Hamas. The only hope is for Hamas to be replaced with a more secular group. This should be the cry and goals of the US, UN, Israel, etc.. It can only be done when the Pl people have had enough of radicalism.

[Skybird]

they build massive tunnel systems instead of schools,.

Oh, don't worry, they built school for sure. Where else should they store their weapons and missiles stockpiles?

[Catfish]

Once more, 3rd time here, still QFT:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

How do you negotiate with someone who only wants to kill you.
Sure, Israel has its dark spots, but after all they are still reluctant - never would have thought this of Netanahu.

Even if those fanatics would be granted a nation of Palestine, wherever that would be, they would still try to kill Israel.

I wonder if there will EVER be a time when the non-Taliban, non-Isis and non-fanatic muslims stand up and punch those own radicals in the face, officially and publicly :nope:

[Skybird]

Hamas wants not shared land, or two states, they only want one state all over the place - theirs.

BTW, Fatah wants that, too: they too want all of the place, they just put it more cleverly in deceptive, hiding words. Often overlooked. The Palestinian Arabs have no intention to accept just parts of the place. In the end, they never wanted a two state solution. For thgem, that always only has been a temporary arrangement bridging the time between now and a future when they will have taken over Israeli land as well. The two state solution never has been a solution to stay with for the Palestinian Arabs.

[Tribesman]

How do you negotiate with someone who only wants to kill you.

You reduce their support until they are powerless.
Handing them propaganda victories again and again does not do that, it does just the opposite.

I wonder if there will EVER be a time when the non-Taliban, non-Isis and non-fanatic muslims stand up and punch those own radicals in the face, officially and publicly
They do it all the time.
Its a quick way to get themselves murdered, though they might get lucky and just get kneecapped instead.

[August]

Interesting article on the subject:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/why-is-israel-losing-a-war-its-winning/375116/

Why Is Israel Losing a War It's Winning?

Six reasons why Israel is on the back foot even as it wins the battle against rockets and tunnels
Lots of blame to go around of course but the big thing to me is how willing the world is to ignore Hamas' deliberate use of civilians as not only human shields but because they know that the resulting dead civilians seem to actually help their cause.

As the article puts it:

Hamas’s principal goal is killing Jews, and it is very good at this (for those who have forgotten about Hamas's achievements in this area, here is a reminder (http://www.nytimes.com/learning/teachers/featured_articles/20020619wednesday.html), and also here (http://www.timesofisrael.com/ten-years-after-passover-bombing-survivors-return-to-netanyas-park-hotel/) and here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/01/international/middleeast/01mideast.html?_r=0)), but it knows that it advances its own (perverse) narrative even more when it induces Israel to kill Palestinian civilians. This tactic would not work if the world understood this, and rejected it. But in the main, it doesn’t. Why people don’t see the cynicism at the heart of terrorist groups like Hamas is a bit of a mystery

[Armistead]

Once more, 3rd time here, still QFT:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

How do you negotiate with someone who only wants to kill you.
Sure, Israel has its dark spots, but after all they are still reluctant - never would have thought this of Netanahu.

Even if those fanatics would be granted a nation of Palestine, wherever that would be, they would still try to kill Israel.

I wonder if there will EVER be a time when the non-Taliban, non-Isis and non-fanatic muslims stand up and punch those own radicals in the face, officially and publicly :nope:


Facts

Israel could kill everyone in Gaza and take the land easily, but doesn't.
Hamas/PL wants all the Jews dead and all the land, but can't.

Israel must break Hamas. The PL people need secularism and a secular govt. to ever have a chance for peace.

Moral of the story:
Religious run states never work..

[Armistead]

You reduce their support until they are powerless.
Handing them propaganda victories again and again does not do that, it does just the opposite.


They do it all the time.
Its a quick way to get themselves murdered, though they might get lucky and just get kneecapped instead.


How do you reduce the support for an entire group of people so indoctrinated by Islam to kill the enemy? How do you make such groups powerless unless you break them in some way, militarily, economically, etc..?

[em2nought]

Dear Israel, so sorry our leaders are douchebags. Keep up the good work!

[Tribesman]

Facts

Israel could kill everyone in Gaza and take the land easily, but doesn't.
Hamas/PL wants all the Jews dead and all the land, but can't.

Those are not facts.

The PL people need secularism and a secular govt. to ever have a chance for peace.

Errrrrr...the PLO are secular, they always were secular, can you remind me what chances did they have?



How do you reduce the support for an entire group of people so indoctrinated by Islam to kill the enemy?
There you go again.
If the foundation of your argument is wrong everything you build on it is wrong.
You really should avoid the sweeping generalisations.

[TarJak]

Moral of the story:
Religious run states never work..
So Israel is doomed to fail then.

[MH]

So Israel is doomed to fail then.
What are you saying exactly?

[TarJak]

Read my post and the quote it contains carefully.

[MH]

Read my post and the quote it contains carefully.
O.k

[Rockstar]

So Israel is doomed to fail then.

Last I heard Benjamin Netanyahu is a Prime Minister not a priest.

ISRAELI GOVERNMENTAL AND POLITICAL structures stem from certain premises and institutional arrangements generally associated with West European parliamentary democracies, East European and Central European institutions and traditions, and even some Middle Eastern sociopolitical patterns.

The Israeli political system is characterized by certain West European democratic arrangements: elected government, multiparty competition, a high level of voter participation in local and national elections, an independent judiciary that is the country's foremost guardian of civil liberties, a vigorous and free press, and the supremacy of civilian rule. Other features, such as collectivism and a lack of expension of the liberal component in Israeli politics, are distinctly East European and Central European in origin. These features are expressed by the absence of a written constitution limiting the powers of government and imposing restraints on the majority to safeguard the rights of individuals, particularly in matters of civil rights and relations between state and religious interests.

If this means Israel is a religious state then Europe should fall first.

[Tribesman]

Last I heard Benjamin Netanyahu is a Prime Minister not a priest.


Last I heard King Abdullah is a Prime Minister not a priest.

.If this means Israel is a religious state then Europe should fall first.
What makes it a religious state are its religious foundation.
The Jewish State is a pretty good pointer there.
If you miss the mark on that try the law of return, Jewish people can come to the Jewish state unless they have converted to another religion.:hmm2:
Laws on marriage is a good one too as you mention civil rights in your quote.
So lets top your quote with a few bits from the Jewish virtual library on civil rights in Israel.
Legal and policy restrictions on religious freedom continued.
governmental and legal discrimination against non-Jews and adherents to non-Orthodox streams of Judaism continued.
But good news, it appears most Israelis don't like it .
The majority of Jewish citizens objected to exclusive Orthodox control over fundamental aspects of their personal lives, and public opinion polls showed a majority of Jewish citizens also supported the formal recognition of other strands of Judaism as valid, such as Reform and Conservative Judaism.

[Dan D]

I think that Israel has an efficient constitutional democracy. With the US after 9/11 I have my doubts:arrgh!:

[Rockstar]

Last I heard King Abdullah is a Prime Minister not a priest.

Me too

What makes it a religious state are its religious foundation.
The Jewish State is a pretty good pointer there.
If you miss the mark on that try the law of return, Jewish people can come to the Jewish state unless they have converted to another religion.:hmm2:


The United States of America, even Ireland, has a multitude of laws which has their foundation based on 'religious' laws.

According to my understanding the law of return is for those who can prove their family is from Judea. According to this, the term 'Jew' has little to do with a religious practice but rather more to do with someone whose family can be traced to Judea. These people have a 'right' to return. Kinda like someone wanting to associate themselves with the Ojibawe tribes here in the States or Canada.

For those who cannot prove their family lineage is Judean they can still become a citizen. Even you Tribesaman can become a citizen of the state of Israel through naturalization. Just like the rest of the world, no conversion to any religion required.

Then their is the religious convertion you spoke of where one may make aliyah too. Like naturalization I think citizenship through conversion is also at the discretion of the elected government not priests.

Laws on marriage is a good one too as you mention civil rights in your quote.
So lets top your quote with a few bits from the Jewish virtual library on civil rights in Israel.
Legal and policy restrictions on religious freedom continued.
governmental and legal discrimination against non-Jews and adherents to non-Orthodox streams of Judaism continued.
But good news, it appears most Israelis don't like it .
The majority of Jewish citizens objected to exclusive Orthodox control over fundamental aspects of their personal lives, and public opinion polls showed a majority of Jewish citizens also supported the formal recognition of other strands of Judaism as valid, such as Reform and Conservative Judaism.

So the majority of the people don't like some things and they are using their vote to make changes in governemnt? Doesn't sound much like a religious state too me especially since nobody in governement is publicly loping off their heads in the name of allah.

[TarJak]

Not lopping off hands, but bulldozing homes and forcibly evicting non Jews from their place of abode.

The star of David on the flag is a bit of a give away also. Try getting married legally there without a rabbi officiating. Try going shopping on Shabbat.

Cut it anyway you like, it's a religious state and has been since its inception, despite many voters desires to change things.

[Tribesman]

According to my understanding the law of return is for those who can prove their family is from Judea. Yet Jewish holocaust survivors have been refused because they don't meet the religious criteria.

According to this, the term 'Jew' has little to do with a religious practice but rather more to do with someone whose family can be traced to Judea. I think you need to learn a bit more about the subject and then rethink your position.

Like naturalization I think citizenship through conversion is also at the discretion of the elected government not priests.
Perhaps Neeman would help you, the controversy over conversions is quite a big thing. The Cabinet and the Knesset both signed off on it, the rabbinate wouldn't so the democraticly elected politicians could not put it through as the priests said no.
When priests can over rule the entire government on matters of law it is a religious state.

So the majority of the people don't like some things and they are using their vote to make changes in governemnt? Doesn't sound much like a religious state too me especially since nobody in governement is publicly loping off their heads in the name of allah.
See above, when priests can over rule the elected government the wishes of the majority are irrelevant

[MH]

Not lopping off hands, but bulldozing homes and forcibly evicting non Jews from their place of abode.

The star of David on the flag is a bit of a give away also. Try getting married legally there without a rabbi officiating. Try going shopping on Shabbat.

Cut it anyway you like, it's a religious state and has been since its inception, despite many voters desires to change things.

Getting married on without Rabbi is an issue.
Shopping on Shabbat depends....I have no problem getting stuff on Shabbat even in holiest of holiest-Jerusalem although my local supermarket is closed.
Same about restaurants or bars.
Also all food in supermarkets is kosher but you can get the no kosher food with ease since the immigration from Russia stated in 90s.
There a lot of little shops that sell anything you want pork related or not kosher.
Most of those immigrates have as match to do with Judaism as those holocaust survivors Tribesman is bubbling about...or less.
Big deal.

Israel is a place of many contradictions which is ok I think.
You have your hegemony we live in our mess...
Go to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem then have some say.
Far from the connotation of religious state some try to create although it is based on Jewish tradition.
So you may like it or you may not yet balancing it keeps the Knesset and Israelis busy very match.


Bulldozering homes...sometimes you have to do what you have to do for own liberty.

What is the issue here....ok ...yours is better than mine...you are more free man than me , it shows.

[MH]

So what have we not covered yet at mid of all this.....
Cases fanatic orthodox nuts forcing women to sit at the back of the buses?

[Tribesman]

Most of those immigrates have as match to do with Judaism as those holocaust survivors Tribesman is bubbling about...or less.

Congratulations.
If someone is thrown in a concentration camp for being jewish yet is refused right of return because they are of the wrong flavour god then you live in a religious state whose laws are dictated by priests.

[TarJak]

Regardless, my original point was to do with the ridiculous statement that religious states are doomed to fail. And in particular that it was only Islamic states that this seemed to apply to. I pointed out that Israel is a religious state and posited that therefore it is equally doomed. Just to poit out that the statement applied equally to Israel as it's opponents.

We can argue till the cows come home but trying to say one religious state is worse or better than another is disingenuous at best and deceitful at worst. MH I think you are right that it's a mess, but I don't see it as worse or better than the other messes around the globe. Just another mess caused by ignorance , arrogance and religion.

[MH]

Congratulations.
If someone is thrown in a concentration camp for being jewish yet is refused right of return because they are of the wrong flavour god then you live in a religious state whose laws are dictated by priests.
I don't know what you talking about.
If it was up to the religus priest the right of return would be changed long time ago.
The law has nothing to do with that , it accully allows for individuals who are not jews by religus law to imigrate to Israel.
The law is very lax due to lessons of holocaust when the nazis prosecuted people with slightlest connections to jewelry.
So if what you say is true… which may be… is one of those sorry cases when bureaucracy got in the way.
Now tell me what it would take for me to have Austalian citizenship…
Now.. You really feel like digging into this??

[TarJak]

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/applying/

[Betonov]

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/applying/

filled and sent :)

[TarJak]

You'll be more than welcome mate. :)

[Betonov]

That I know. I'm more than welcome anywhere but Slovenia :)

[Jimbuna]

filled and sent :)

You need to go through the British Embassy first :)

[Tribesman]

I don't know what you talking about. But you are the local with local expertise, I thought it was foriegners that knew nothing.

If it was up to the religus priest the right of return would be changed long time ago.
Errrr...it was, twice.
Why as a local expert do you not know this?

The law has nothing to do with that The law to do with it has everything to do with it.

it accully allows for individuals who are not jews by religus law to imigrate to Israel.
What is a jew?
It's all in the legislation.
The definition is under religious law, or more accurately orthodox rabbis interpretation of religious law.

is one of those sorry cases when bureaucracy got in the way.
No, religious law got in the way.

The law is very lax due to lessons of holocaust when the nazis prosecuted people with slightlest connections to jewelry.
Yet the law banned Oswald Rufeisen, a holocaust survivor.


So if what you say is true You mean you don't know. So why are you attacking what is said if you don't know anything about it?

Now tell me what it would take for me to have Austalian citizenship…
Points, money, a combination of both, health, age.
But no priests making definitions on who is eligible.

Now.. You really feel like digging into this?? The question is, do you?
Or more importantly why did you get into it without having any knowledge of it in the first place.
After all the comment was not yours that was replied to
The comment was that Israel is not a religious state.
That is dealt with by, amongst other things....When priests can over rule the entire government on matters of law it is a religious state.

[MH]

Yes

[Oberon]

You need to go through the British Police first :)

Fixed that for you... :03:

[Jimbuna]

Fixed that for you... :03:

That can always be arranged...for a small financial consideration :03:

[Rockstar]

Not many countries on this planet that do not have some root in 'religious' laws. Whether they call it torah, magna carta, a constitution or are administered by secular officials, priests, rabbis or 'we the people' it doesn't make much difference. So long as one can live in peace with our neighbor. When one can't and insists in antagonizing it's neighbor and just like animals spend their days digging tunnels with the expressed intention of killing them. Then the reponse should be such that he will not do it again and if that means his annihilation then so be it.

But sometimes thats what happens when certain religions, priests and imans run schools and centers of education, just like they do in Ireland.

[Tribesman]

Not many countries on this planet do not have some root in 'religious' laws. Whether they call it torah, magna carta, a constitution or are administered by secular officials, priests, rabbis or 'we the people' it doesn't make much difference. So long as one can live in peace with our neighbor. When one can't and insists in antagonizing it's neighbor and just like animals spend their days digging tunnels with the expressed intention of killing them. Then the reponse should be such that he will not do it again and if that means his annihilation then so be it.

.
Still trying to defend your post after it has been shown to be entirely without merit and having no basis in fact.:hmmm:

But well done, you have just equated Hamas with the United States. Take a quick look in the 100 years topic for the reference:yep:
That is quite some trend, first of all MH puts Israel on same the level of Hamas and now you have put the US on that level too.
Plus a nice call for genocide as a solution thrown in for good measure.
So does that make you the same as the genocidal nuts in Hamas too?


But sometimes thats what happens when certain religions, priests and imans run schools and centers of education, just like they do in Ireland Nice try, nice fail:rotfl2:

[MH]

Not many countries on this planet do not have some root in 'religious' laws. Whether they call it torah, magna carta, a constitution or are administered by secular officials, priests, rabbis or 'we the people' it doesn't make much difference. So long as one can live in peace with our neighbor. When one can't and insists in antagonizing it's neighbor and just like animals spend their days digging tunnels with the expressed intention of killing them. Then the reponse should be such that he will not do it again and if that means his annihilation then so be it.

But sometimes thats what happens when certain religions, priests and imans run schools and centers of education, just like they do in Ireland.


Let it be...wait some rant here firs...


The proble here is , as always when crap hits the fun around here , that people try to take out every thing out of context.
Like this useless talk about law of return which favors one peoples over others and which basically has its roots in religion yet there is more to it in philosophical and practical terms.
I also remember covering issue of treatment of women by orthodox and what not lol

I personally met people who had troubles or had some one in the family having troubles with law of return...
Not holocaust survivors... for the emphasis and additional shock...
I also know people who had been refused in other courtiers...
I do not see why it should be of any interest to anyone abroad besides a reason to rant.
This law has its flaws and pros.
Don't think Tribesman is in line for Israeli citizenship.
..maybe for some pills....

.
Im very match on the left side when it comes to religion but what pisses me of is all kind of self proclaimed priests / prophets/lawyers and "liberal leftist" who are not very bright but think that merely being an leftist gains them the title of some sort of intellectual... teaching ethics, politics or thinking that what ever they think or have should be universally applied here.

We are not Sweden and don't want to be , or could be if wanted to...Israel is working on its unique way in this difficult spot...

Anyway if you don't like kosher food ...don't come here.
Those religious nuts will force it down your throat....:yeah:

[Rockstar]

I was checking out the D.C. Israeli Embassy site about immigration. It does appear there is not a way (for the moment) for a person to become a naturalized citizen of the state of Israel. To that I say BIG WHOOP, if thats the law of the land then so be it, there is absolutley nothing to be ashamed of. Israel's law of return serves the same purpose as other countries laws having much to do too with preserving one's identity as a people or nation. Every soveriegn state has a need and a right to it's own laws and means to regulate immigration. If some don't like how a country is ruled then pack sand and don't go there.

New citizens legally entering a country swear an oath of alligence very similar to Italy's "I swear to be faithful to the Republic and to observe the Constitution and the laws of the State" Others prefer one similar to Ruth's when Naomi told her to go back to her people (Ruth 1:16:17,).

[Rockstar]

Thankfully certain of us are safely quarantined on far and away islands :har::har::har::har:

[Tribesman]

I was checking out the D.C. Israeli Embassy site about immigration. It does appear there is not a way (for the moment) for a person to become a naturalized citizen of the state of Israel. To that I say BIG WHOOP, if thats the law of the land then so be it, there is absolutley nothing to be ashamed of. Israel's law of return serves the same purpose as other countries laws having much to do too with preserving one's identity as a people or nation. Every soveriegn state has a need and a right to it's own laws and means to regulate immigration. If some don't like how a country is ruled then pack sand and do go there.

If its the law of the land so be it, but what does it say about your claims. about that land and its laws?



I do not see why it should be of any interest to anyone abroad besides a reason to rant.

The only interest in this instance is when people make claims that are not true.

Like this useless talk about law of return which favors one peoples over others and which basically has its roots in religion yet there is more to it in philosophical and practical terms.

That's strange.
If it was up to the religus priest the right of return would be changed long time ago.
You already proved don't even know your own laws which you are choosing to talk about.
Is the fact that you proved you don't know what you are talking about the key to why you see it as useless talk?

[MH]

If it was up to the religus priest the right of return would be changed long time ago.[/I]]
Yes they would be changed you ...not troll.
What do you don't understand...WT..H? lol

What is your issue...
OK...for the last time I will try ... this link might shed some light , you stubborn ...whatever
Sketchy but crosses the point I think lol

...behold...a link...if you still domt get it I might put it in hard cover edition and send it to you :damn:.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
English is your own language so I hope you get it , unless you are only into reading between the lines...the blank spaces..

Ridiculous....

[mapuc]

Instead of all this discussing you have, why not go right to these who may know this for sure. Send a mail to the right person in the Israeli government and ask him or her what rules there are for Jewish and Non-Jewish people who want to live in Israel.

Markus

[Tribesman]

Yes they would be changed you ...not troll.
What do you don't understand...WT..H? lol

Errrrrr...they were changed, twice.
Both times by religious leaders.
Hey hold on.....Errrr...it was, twice.
Why as a local expert do you not know this?
So the question now is, why do you still not know this?

What is your issue...
Ok let me repeat very slowly so you don't miss it again.
The only interest in this instance is when people make claims that are not true.
Would you like me to point out those bits again and again or do you think you are able to follow them in this topic?

OK...for the last time I will try ... this link might shed some light , you stubborn ...whatever
Sketchy but crosses the point I think lol
Why not use a link I previously provided you with?
That way there can be nothing sketchy.
Don't tell me you can't find the Knesset website....again :haha:

But its OK if you use your wiki link look at the sources which are handily listed at the bottom, they link to primary sources.
You too can easily find Israeli law, and the changes I refer to.:up:
What you want is amendment 2/5730.
If you want to go for the bonus you can look up Neeman too and see how priests over ruled the cabinet and Knesset on law.
As an extra bonus you might note the Prime minister of the time, its quite funny as he was this bloke who gave speeches under "death to arabs" banners which ties rather nicely on the genocidal front to you managing to equate Israel with Hamas.
Now of course an extremist nut like that wouldn't go far in politics in a civilised democracy, I wonder what his job is today:rotfl2:

English is your own language so I hope you get it , unless you are only into reading between the lines...the blank spaces..
Is English my own language? That's news to me.
Sorry , but I am afraid you have proven that you are not reading at all.
Must be those blank spaces eh.

[MH]

You talking rubbish.

As an extra bonus you might note the Prime minister of the time, its quite funny as he was this bloke who gave speeches under "death to arabs" banners which ties rather nicely on the genocidal front to you managing to equate Israel with Hamas.
Yes he did the speech as you said.
As a bonus ...Just bringing this up farther proves your rubbish filled state of mind , you stick to rubbish lol.
You dig rubbish to try to prove your points...are you an hobby politician when not a lawyer:rotfl2:
Is it election time?

[Tribesman]

You talking rubbish. Point out a single thing that is not true. If its true its not rubbish
Just because you don't like it it doesn't make it false.

Yes he did the speech as you said.
So its true. What a surprise:rotfl2:

As a bonus ...Just bringing this up farther proves your rubbish filled state of mind , you stick to rubbish lol.
Do you not like the truth?

You dig rubbish to try to prove your points...are you an hobby politician when not a lawyer Sorry you seem to be having problems with definitions, facts is the word, not rubbish.
Why don't you like facts?

Now to the amendment, I am sure you must be aware of it by now.
After all it is pretty hard not to be able to find it and you have talked a hell of a lot about it, after all it would be crazy for you to keep on talking about something if you don't know what you are talking about.
So could you tell me. The foundation for the definition for the law is Deuteronomy 7:1-5, Leviticus 24:10 and Ezra 10:2-3 isn't it.:yep:

[Dan D]

What about the 2 states solution or any other idea? Or do they do ethnic cleansing there now? Now they kill the Kids. First 3 Israeli kids, then one Palestine kid that was killed (burned alive?) by some Israeli right-exremists.

Ehtnic cleansing the Ex-Yugoslawia way: Militia enters your village with the message: " first we will kill your kids, then we will come for your wife and then we will kill you". I guess that does the work when your kid comes home 10 minutes late.

Try that for a change. Terrible.

[Skybird]

http://www11.pic-upload.de/01.08.14/koqr8la9c5u5.jpg (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-24096119/n-GEWALT-large570.jpg.html)

[MH]

Point out a single thing that is not true. If its true its not rubbish
Just because you don't like it it doesn't make it false.

Point is about what you trying to prove here and why ...
Whatever laws are passed ...even those ones not of my liking or liking are passed through democratic legislations...supreme court and so on.
That is democracy and I vote for what ever party I vote for...doesn't matter.
Yet I hate crap diggers on the left and right...you deserve each other.
Especially do foreign ones.

Now what... Bibi made his speech and at the moment is executing the plan ?

....he did not shout death to Arabs though...lets be clear here lol

Yes Israel has many internal problems , it is young country still shaping itself in this difficult place.... weather we want or not it affects us internally as well , some for good and some bad.
One thing is sure...Israel is not in a comfort zone allowing it to be Sweden.
I don't think it should be Sweden as well.

[MH]

http://www11.pic-upload.de/01.08.14/koqr8la9c5u5.jpg (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-24096119/n-GEWALT-large570.jpg.html)

lol

[Rockstar]

If its the law of the land so be it, but what does it say about your claims. about that land and its laws?

Ultimate fail, read it again. I told you my claims once I'll say it again I don't give a rats arse how a country regulates immigration and just to be clear so you don't miss it again, that includes Israel.

Why don't you tell us all what you think it says about the land and it's laws? I beginning to think you might a closet Jew who wanted to reside in Israel but the government told you to pack sand. Really why else would anyone be so angry and obsess over this land its laws like you are? Maybe Skybird can diagnose this and get you on the road to recovery and to come out of the closet. :D

[Stealhead]

Reading this thread shows you how things can develope into long standing disputies.

[MH]

Reading this thread shows you how things can develope into long standing disputies.

Don't worry it is time for hudna soon....:haha:

[Tribesman]

Ultimate fail, read it again. I told you my claims once I'll say it again I don't give a rats arse how a country regulates immigration and just to be clear so you don't miss it again, that includes Israel.

Yes you told me your claims.
Lets refresh.
You challenged a post saying Israel is a religious state.
Fail

You set up a definition for yourself
Fail and strawman

You gave your idea of what their law was.
Fail.

You compared it with other laws when there are none that compare
Fail.

Talking about the electorate voting on things that cannot be voted on, plus another strawman
Fail.

Some waffle.
Is that a fail?
But with the addition of equating the US with Hamas
:hmmm:Interesting fail.

So, you were saying?
For someone that doesn't give a rats arse you certainly wrote a lot about it.

Why don't you tell us all what you think it says about the land and it's laws?
It says that Israel discriminates against jews on the basis of religion and heritage.
Which is kinda funny considering the rationale for the creation of the State.




@MH.
Point is about what you trying to prove here and why ...

Was what I wrote true or not?

Especially do foreign ones.

Well done, slipping into casual racism now:har:

Whatever laws are passed ...even those ones not of my liking or liking are passed through democratic legislations...supreme court and so on.
That is democracy and I vote for what ever party I vote for...doesn't matter.

On a scale of 1-10 how democratic would you describe the Chief Rabbinate and the Rabbinical grand court?

Now what... Bibi made his speech and at the moment is executing the plan ?

No, I simply expect him to be condemned for it the same way that a white supremacists giving a speech under a death to the jews banner would be or a islamist nutcase with a death to the unbelievers banner and treated exactly the same as those are.

[MH]

:haha:
WTH lol

Fine you win!!!!:yeah:

You KOed me with your refined logic as expected.. Mickey...talking about racism lol

[Tribesman]

More racist crap.
Well done MH your trolling really knows no bounds.

[MH]

More racist crap.
Well done MH your trolling really knows no bounds.

LOL does it....
Are you for real man?

[TarJak]

Back OT, A 72 hour cease fire has started in Gaza: http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-01/72-hour-ceasefire-agreed-in-gaza/5639864

[Tribesman]

Back OT, A 72 hour cease fire has started in Gaza: http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-01/72-hour-ceasefire-agreed-in-gaza/5639864
How long till the two bunches of idiots go at it again?
Anyway it was OT. MH gave a nice demonstration of a refusal to deal with facts and laws with a nice dose of irrational racist bigotry.
The Palestine/Israel conflict in a nutshell.

[TarJak]

3 days. If the cease fire holds.

[Tribesman]

3 days. If the cease fire holds.
I wonder if anyone is running a book on it, it could be a great betting game.
Who breaks it and when, how they try justifying it, how quick their supporters blame the other side for doing it.

[Betonov]

I wonder if anyone is running a book on it, it could be a great betting game.
Who breaks it and when, how they try justifying it, how quick their supporters blame the other side for doing it.

I bet €1 that the cease fire holds.

Not likely, but if it does I get a million out

[TarJak]

You will have done your dough. Looks like it lasted about an hour. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28603599

[Jimbuna]

My one and only appeal to anyone continuing with personal attacks and or name calling...please refrain.

TIA

[Alex]

@ MH : And these days in here we have the heads of that religious community of yours organizing public protests in the streets (http://youtu.be/uEWICzjDhkY) to support their legitimate right to that lebensraum... :nope:
The kind of guy (http://youtu.be/Wpc2mpGDZrk) you're supposed to be at heart still to be able to look at yourself in the mirror without spitting on it - as you live where you do, according to what you say. Everyone holds Judaism in high regard - as much as Catholicism and Islam - when that one is based on the Holy Scriptures and not on ethnic cleansing, and you know that most likely.

And to think that this rally in support of a state feeling okay with the deliberate bloodshed of children living close by is taking place in France... The eldest daughter of the Church may be losing its capital letter soon if it keeps supporting that ****. :hmm2:

[HunterICX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPh4GNndo_o

[Rockstar]

Yes you told me your claims.
Lets refresh.
You challenged a post saying Israel is a religious state.
Fail

You set up a definition for yourself
Fail and strawman

You gave your idea of what their law was.
Fail.

You compared it with other laws when there are none that compare
Fail.

Talking about the electorate voting on things that cannot be voted on, plus another strawman
Fail.

Some waffle.
Is that a fail?
But with the addition of equating the US with Hamas
:hmmm:Interesting fail.

So, you were saying?
For someone that doesn't give a rats arse you certainly wrote a lot about it.


It says that Israel discriminates against jews on the basis of religion and heritage.
Which is kinda funny considering the rationale for the creation of the State.

I'll say it again for you, SO WHAT, BIG WHOOP, I don't give a rats arse how a sovereign state regulates immigration. If you don't like it don't live there. WAIT! You can't eve if you wanted too. Have you scheduled your appointment with Skybird yet?

[Tribesman]

I'll say it again for you, SO WHAT, BIG WHOOP, I don't give a rats arse how a sovereign state regulates immigration.
Then don't talk about it.
Or even better, if you know bugger all about the topic but feel you want to make claims about the subject don't even think about talking about it.

But hey since you again clearly want to talk about something you don't know about and again make claims that don't make sense..... Lets proceed.
On how many grounds does that State fail to meet the definition of a sovereign state?:har:

[MH]

Anyway it was OT. MH gave a nice demonstration of a refusal to deal with facts and laws with a nice dose of irrational racist bigotry.
The Palestine/Israel conflict in a nutshell]

:rotfl2:

[MH]

I'll say it again for you, SO WHAT, BIG WHOOP, I don't give a rats arse how a sovereign state regulates immigration. If you don't like it don't live there. WAIT! You can't eve if you wanted too. Have you scheduled your appointment with Skybird yet?

Because we are racist people we let in only Jews or the decedents which are not Jews
...so while the law is religious in it roots it contradicts religious laws since Israel lets in millions who are non Jewish according to halacha so we can argue about the semantics here..
Saying that the law is Zionist would be match closer to the truth ... bening Jew is not only religion is nationality...kind of confusing
Now ...With enough imagination you can take it further and talk about racism ,apartheid state and so on...so it is important.
Add to this Palestinian right of return ....and the Jewish state issue...and so on...a reason why some foreigners care so match.

Part of daily blah blah around Israel .....


.

[Skybird]

Recommended reading:

LINK - 7 things to consider before choosing sides in the ME conflict (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html)

[MH]

Recommended reading:

LINK - 7 things to consider before choosing sides in the ME conflict (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html)

Interesting that actually YOU post this...:haha:
There is no secular logical argument to maintain settlements in west bank.
I personally never go there and have no real reason to go there besides when I used to do my military service and later reserve service.
Yet on another hand withdrawal from all west bank may have its downfall.
There is some logical explanation to the occupation or maintaining security if you will...
As said.. hamas will not stop , what would stop it from taking over west bank?
Now it is Fatah/PA Israeli cooperation.
Personally I thing the only reason PA is still governing west bank is very much due to this cooperation.
Israel is doing the dirty job while PA maintains its PC face toward its peaple.

Is this tribal/religious war...well you may call it that.
No revelation here.

[Skybird]

Interesting that actually YOU post this...:haha:

Why? - I never hid that I am defending Israel's right to exist and to rule in the whole place - for pragmatic reasons and not due to emotional sentiments or religious claims. Point 1-6 in the author's essay are not different to what I say. Only with point 7 he brings in arguments that could be argued over either by the numerical relevance, or their historical correctness. But what he says there does not directly influence my attitude on the whole matter.

If it were the year 1950, I maybe would weigh aspects of the whole mess differently. But it is the year 2014, and more than two generation sof Israeli people have been born and have died in - and sometime for - Israel meanwhile. History has moved far beyond 1948 since then. Most Palestinian Arabs living today get enraged of a long since gone status that they never have experienced themselves, or which they never were affected by becasue they were not born as children of the place, but migrated to it from other places int he world. Only few live anymore for whom the tales told about a long since gone time still have a living meaning that is linked to living memories they hold in their own minds. I have linked to the age structure of the Palestinian Arabs some pages earlier. That says all.

[Oberon]

Clearly Israel is a result of the international Jewish conspiracy, just look at the evidence:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10462814_10154425545660483_8875791197738078473_n.j pg

[mapuc]

One of our TV-stations TV2NEWS gets hundreds if not thousands of mails from their viewer each week

50 % are complaining about TV2NEWS for being to much Pro-Israel
50 % are complaining about TV2NEWS for being to much Pro-Palestine

It ain't easy to run a news channel and try to be impartially when reporting from this Crisis between Israel and HAMAS/Palestine.

Markus

[Catfish]

Clearly Israel is a result of the international Jewish conspiracy, just look at the evidence:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10462814_10154425545660483_8875791197738078473_n.j pg




OMG, so the rumours of a jewish world conspiracy are true
(in Isreal :rotfl2:)

[MH]

It ain't easy to run a news channel and try to be impartially when reporting from this Crisis between Israel and HAMAS/Palestine.

Markus
It would be much easer if FIFA World Cup lasted whole year....

[Otto Fuhrmann]

Just have it on all year round. That and American football. Then governments can do whatever they like without anyone noticing (caring).

[Oberon]

It worked in December 1914...briefly. :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

http://ididafunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Ha-Ha-Made-Ya-Look-00.jpg


Anyway, as farked up as some of my writing skills, reasoning, etc. etc. and so forth may be. Let it be known to one and all here Israel does have my full support in their mission. AND in the way they handle immigration I reckon its a good way to keep the nut cases out, or in, depending on one's point of view I suppose ;)

[Tribesman]

Let it be known to one and all here Israel does have my full support in their mission.
So when your government says some Israeli actions are indefensible and unjustifiable you are willing to try and justify and defend those actions.:har:

[Armistead]

Tribesman, I'm interested what you think Israel should do when under mass attack with rockets?

Do you really think Hamas/PL people want peace and a state or to keep improving their goal to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?

Let's say Israel stopped the blockade and let money, ships, supplies come in, if Hamas instead of using the money for the people and used it to buy rockets, build more tunnels into Israel, etc.., to attack Israel....would you agree Israel has the right to blockade again.

If you say stop the blockade, give the PL/Hamas more land and a state, do you really think it would end there? If Israel did so and Hamas still shot rockets and terror would you then support Israel attacking and totally wiping them out?

[TarJak]

Because totally wiping them out is a) the appropriate response and b) possible...

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, I'm interested what you think Israel should do when under mass attack with rockets?
Are they under mass attack with rockets?

Do you really think Hamas/PL people want peace and a state or to keep improving their goal to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?
Do you see your error there?
The terms you use are not interchangeable.
If you want to talk about one group talk about that group.
In addition if you want to talk about that one group maybe you should specify which particular factions of that one group.

Let's say Israel stopped the blockade and let money, ships, supplies come in, if Hamas instead of using the money for the people and used it to buy rockets, build more tunnels into Israel, etc.., to attack Israel....would you agree Israel has the right to blockade again.
Who benefits from the blockade?
If the people who benefit most from the blockade are the very people you want to harm what purpose does it serve?
Take cement for example. Hamas clearly has no shortage of cement, they even sell their surplus on the open market at vastly inflated prices.
The only cement authorised to be allowed into gaza is for projects authorised, conducted by and monitored by international bodies.
Now perhaps Hamas is stealing this cement, but any QS would specify the amount these authorised projects require to be imported, any clerk of works would confirm the correct amount has been used.
So since it is monitored and conducted by international bodies and regulated by Israel that should be easy to establish.
One slight problem there, though Israel says this vast network of reinforced concrete tunnels predates the time when any cement was allowed through the blockade.
So what purpose does it serve?
It appears to serve only Hamas and seems to only raise them more money.

So are you in favour of this blockade?
If so why exactly are you a supporter of Hamas?

If you say stop the blockade, give the PL/Hamas more land and a state, do you really think it would end there? Same error. it is a very basic mistake which is very common.
If you want to ask questions that mean anything be specific.

If Israel did so and Hamas still shot rockets and terror would you then support Israel attacking and totally wiping them out? Who? Hamas or the Palestinian people?
And as TarJak points out, is it even possible?

[Rockstar]

So when your government says some Israeli actions are indefensible and unjustifiable you are willing to try and justify and defend those actions.:har:


"So when your government says..." Now THAT is something to laugh about. Ultimate FAIL. :har::har::har:

[MH]

Because totally wiping them out is a) the appropriate response and b) possible...

No but it might be possible to destroy all terror infrastructure hamas has built far...if you had been living in Israel you would know why this is important.
With the help of Egyptians and Arab league who are not in favor hamas or to put it simply hate those guys more than Israel , some solution might be reached regarding Gaza.
I understand that this usual slow bloodshed around Gaza is easer to swallow , manage by your politicians and collective consciousness but if done right this war might bring quiet for long time to come.

[Armistead]

Tribesman must be getting his news direct from Hamas.

We all know Hamas is using civilians as human shields, this has been proven beyond doubt through history, often dragging humans near their rockets or not letting them leave. They set up in hospitals, schools, houses, etc. Then they have numerous cameras ready to film the carnage, screaming look what Israel has done.

Many of the ME nations fear Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, etc., for the radicals they are. I hope Israel continues the attack, and makes Gaza a dump until the people have had enough of Hamas.

[Oberon]

http://pickyrunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/dog-chasing-tail-o.gif

[Tribesman]

"So when your government says..." Now THAT is something to laugh about. Ultimate FAIL. :har::har::har:

English not your language then?
Having difficulty with words?
Simple lesson for ya MH, when even your allies say you are going crazy you have gone really crazy.
Anyone giving full support to actions which are unjustifiable hasn't got a leg to stand on.
It means their reasoning is really well and truly ...."farked up"
Simple isn't it.

[MH]

English not your language then?
Having difficulty with words?
Simple lesson for ya MH, when even your allies say you are going crazy you have gone really crazy.
Anyone giving full support to actions which are unjustifiable hasn't got a leg to stand on.
It means their reasoning is really well and truly ...."farked up"
Simple isn't it.

Yes we gone crazy...

[Tribesman]

Tribesman must be getting his news direct from Hamas.

We all know Hamas is using civilians as human shields, this has been proven beyond doubt through history, often dragging humans near their rockets or not letting them leave. They set up in hospitals, schools, houses, etc. Then they have numerous cameras ready to film the carnage, screaming look what Israel has done.

Many of the ME nations fear Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, etc., for the radicals they are. I hope Israel continues the attack, and makes Gaza a dump until the people have had enough of Hamas.
I see you are unable to deal with any of the points made.
Whats the matter? does it require you to think?
Is it too hard for you to think at all?
If you are unable to think your views are just empty noise without meaning.
If you are unable to think it suggests you are just mindlessly regurgitating some crap you have swallowed.
So Armistead what is it that is causing you to be devoid of thought?

So I ask again armistead...why exactly are you a supporter of Hamas?

[Jimbuna]

If this thread is to remain open it would be beneficial if everyone stuck by the same rules.

Answering direct questions with direct answers instead of side stepping them and attempting to flavour the response with a hint of a put down or sarcasm would be of great value to the debate.

[Tribesman]

No sarcasm there.
Anyone supporting an action which only benefits Hamas must be a Hamas supporter.
Its an example of situational irony at work:03:

[Armistead]

I see you are unable to deal with any of the points made.
Whats the matter? does it require you to think?
Is it too hard for you to think at all?
If you are unable to think your views are just empty noise without meaning.
If you are unable to think it suggests you are just mindlessly regurgitating some crap you have swallowed.
So Armistead what is it that is causing you to be devoid of thought?

So I ask again armistead...why exactly are you a supporter of Hamas?

You didn't make a logical statement to reply. As before, once the subject becomes illogical with someone, no further reply is needed.

So have a great day.

[Tribesman]

You didn't make a logical statement to reply.
It was logical.
If Hamas is the main beneficiary of actions you support then you are supporting Hamas.

So....
Why do you support Hamas Armistead?

I know you don't intend to support Hamas, but your lack of logical thought means that you do.

[MH]

http://www.afuntab.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Funny-Quotes-about-Violence-11.jpeg

[mapuc]

I simple thought/question

What or how would your country look like in about 10-15 years from now if you and your countrymen change places with the Palestine People and how would Gaza and the West Bank look like in 10-15 years from now if you....


Markus

[MH]

I simple thought/question

What or how would your country look like in about 10-15 years from now if you and your countrymen change places with the Palestine People and how would Gaza and the West Bank look like in 10-15 years from now if you....


Markus

You mean like what Israel in 40s 50s ???

[Oberon]

A bit like this perhaps?

http://i.imgur.com/JHsdLrG.jpg

[mapuc]

You mean like what Israel in 40s 50s ???

No today. I should have pointed that out in my question

Many years ago I read a long post on a Swedish forum where this person made point for point what would happen if the Swedish people who live in Scania change places with the Palestine people and how Gaza and the West Bank would like like in 10-15 years from now and how Scania and its neighbor would look like in about 10-15 years from now

Here are what I remember

The people from Scania would have developed the Palestine area into highly industrialized community

Farming would also be highly developed

People from Scania would have made peace with Israel a.s.o

Palestine. On the oresund-bridge there will be UN-soldier. the rest of Sweden have invaded Scania now and then.

the Industry are no more

farming is like the beginning of the 17 century

Signs of famine will begin to appear

a.s.o

He or she got many answer(can't remember them)

Was he or she right ? well nobody will never know

Every time there's problem between Israel and the Palestine, I always remember that post.

Markus

[Skybird]

It's an impressive "alliance" that Israel is only the spearhead of: Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, even Mahmut Abbas - all would love to see Hamas being extemrinated by Israel.

Also impressive is the allies Obamistan is choosing: Israel-hating Turkey and Israel-hating Quatar. The Saudis, once traditional pragmatic allies of the US before it became Obamistan, are alienated by Obamistan to the max. Kerry's proposals last week promised billions in support for Hamas, their total and complete recognition as the governing body in Gaza, and general support for them.

As a German newspaper yesterday wrote, Obama has made every mistake possible in the ME. He acts there as if he were a complete intellectual vacuum, has not even the smallest clue.

Or is it just too much display of "incompetence" as if one could assume any longer that it just is by random chance, by individual failure of Obama, by stupidity of his? I have started to wonder if so much dilletantism is indeed dilletantism - or maybe a wanted agenda. An agenda in support of white-washing Islam and supporting religious Islamic forces at the cost of secular forces in the region. When Obama was sworn in, enough attacks and rumours that he were a hidden Muslim were to be seen and heard. Back then I gave not much for them. But they keep coming back to my mind now.

Anyhow, while people do body-counting the death toll in Gaza, twice as many Syrian soldiers than dead people in Gaza have been killed by the maniacs of ISIS last week alone. The same ISIS that Turkey is openly supporting and hosting, giving basis and hospital access, equips and transports in and out of Syria. That is the Turkey that German Patriot batteries "protect" at its southern border against an unknown threat. The Turkey that Obama tries to close ties with - against Israel.

I cannot help it, but Obama's ME policies is plagued by too many random incidents and failures "by chance" as if I could believe any longer that it all is a random element or dilettantism only.

The Israelis do not trust him since years. He managed - to use a quote from mentioned German newspaper - to turn former friends into enemies, and enemies into assumed allies. Right now the Iranians, said the newspaper, "could sell him his own watch, and he would accept the deal". On the day he leaves office with a ceremony, they will maybe reveal their first nuclear missile with a celebration as well.

[Tribesman]

Also impressive is the allies Obamistan is choosing Makes a change from Eurabia.
So Sky have you gone and thrown your hat in the ring with the birther nuts now?
Obama the secret Muslim:rotfl2:

The same ISIS that Turkey is openly supporting and hosting, giving basis and hospital access, equips and transports in and out of Syria.
And there was me thinking Turkey backed the FSA SRF and SMC all of which fight against ISIS.
Thank for educating me on the "real" details.

[Von Tonner]

I find that the way in which the media report casualties extremely misleading.

In today's papers for example one reads:

"The Palestinian death toll has risen to at least 1,737 since July 8, including about 400 children, the Gaza Health Ministry said."

Then followed by:

Sixty-three Israeli soldiers, two Israeli civilians and a Thai national have also been killed in ground fighting with Palestinian militants and in rocket and mortar attacks.

This begs the question of how many of the 1,200 Palestinian's killed were in fact Hamas militants?

It is also not disputed that Hamas uses the ordinary non-combatant Palestinian population as a form of "human shield" with one of the aims to ratch up world sympathy for their cause through the horrific images of innocent casualties via the world media.

Many commentators are very quick to accuse the IDF of targeting or having no regard to civilian life caught in the cross fire and base this on what they refer to as the disproportionality in casualties on the Israeli side.

This is an emotional and fallacious argument. The rockets fired by Hamas to Israel have civilians as their targets. Is Israel therefore to be penalised because it values the life of its citizens by spending time and money on a Dome system whereas Hamas would rather spend its time and money on building tunnels to attack Israel.

Mapuc posted earlier in this thread a what if question if roles were reversed. Given that scenario Hamas would switch the Dome system off!!!!

[Skybird]

Another headline is that another UN school has been hit by Israeli fire. But no discussion on Hamas repeatedly being observed to have opened fire from UN installations like schools, having taken up battle positions less then 20 m beside the main entrances, having build rocket launchers on their roofs or having stockpiled ammo dumbs in the basements.

Hamas wants high scores of Arab civilians dead, due to the global media it is the better for Hamas the higher the number of dead civilians is that they can provoke.

And the UN? Does not care for Hamas abusing UN installations. But when the Israelis dare to not respect the UN when firing at what has become valid military targets from which they take fire - then an outcry goes around the globe.

ISIS fighters have staged the biggest clash so far against Lebanese soldiers in a Lebanse village. ISIS fighters in Iraq that have freshly shuttled in via Turkey have started to newly engage Kurdish Peshmerga militias, says another so far unconfirmed rumour. Erdoghan really tops himself - from a shiny ally of Assad to Assad's self-declared enemy, with Turkish nationals being held hostage by ISIS and Erdoghan nevertheless supporting ISIS from Turkish soil to have the fighting against the Kurds, while at the same time urging NATO and Washington to not conduct air strikes on ISIS. :D And all the time yelling that the Israelis today do much worse than the Nazis did against the Jews...

Turkey out of NATO, please.

[Oberon]

Remove Kebab

[Tribesman]

This begs the question of how many of the 1,200 Palestinian's killed were in fact Hamas militants?
I suppose it depends on what you call a militant. There are certainly some very funny definitions being thrown around.
There was an Israeli on the BBC saying 85% of the casualties were Hamas. She got a bit flummoxed when the percentage who were children were put to her. :oops:
It seems they generally settle on the figure of just above 40%.
As far as I can see the rationale behind reaching that number is to simply look at election results from a few years ago and transfer the numbers.

The rockets fired by Hamas to Israel have civilians as their targets. Do they? I thought a dumb rocket with primitive guidance could only be targeted at a rough area.
So doesn't that mean Israel is what is targeted?
Now of course not all the strikes are with such inaccurate weapons, one of the Israeli civilians was killed by mortar fire wasn't he, he was delivering food to an army post. So was the civilian the one that was targeted or was it the army?

@the Sky
And the UN? Does not care for Hamas abusing UN installations. Can you find any talk from the UN on the subject where they don't condemn it?
If you can't then you are obviously talking complete rubbish...again.

But when the Israelis dare to not respect the UN when firing at what has become valid military targets from which they take fire - then an outcry goes around the globe.
A designated shelter which the military as been notified of, is clearly marked, that is full of civilian refugees who have moved there at the request of the Israeli military cannot become a valid military target.:yep:
Now I know you firmly believe that war should be conducted in as brutal and inhumane manner as possible and such fripperies as laws of war should not exist.
So how is it that you attempt to condemn actions by Hamas which are in violation of those laws which you believe should not be practiced?
A bit of a corner you have painted yourself into isn't it.
So sky, why exactly is it that you support Hamas?:hmmm:

[MH]

. o they? I thought a dumb rocket with primitive guidance could only be targeted at a rough area.
So doesn't that mean Israel is what is targeted?
Now of course not all the strikes are with such inaccurate weapons, one of the Israeli civilians was killed by mortar fire wasn't he, he was delivering food to an army post. So was the civilian the one that was targeted or was it the army?

That is exellent passage.
Quite smart I should say... a mind of politican?

It seems that iron dome is political curse.
There had been predictions that this would happen and put israel even more on defense.
Interesting how things turn out.
It is not about disproportionate damage it is about getting the job done.
Unfortunately Gaza is very dense place and hamas is not helping to avoid civilian deaths so here we are..

[Tribesman]

It is not about disproportionate damage it is about getting the job done.

But is it getting the job done that they want?
If it isn't the what possible purpose does it serve?
The only job they seem to be getting done is exactly the job Hamas wants them to do.

[Armistead]

Or is it just too much display of "incompetence" as if one could assume any longer that it just is by random chance, by individual failure of Obama, by stupidity of his? I have started to wonder if so much dilletantism is indeed dilletantism - or maybe a wanted agenda. An agenda in support of white-washing Islam and supporting religious Islamic forces at the cost of secular forces in the region. When Obama was sworn in, enough attacks and rumours that he were a hidden Muslim were to be seen and heard. Back then I gave not much for them. But they keep coming back to my mind now.

I don't think it's about Islam or that he's a Muslim, I think this is a man that in his heart simply hates America. It goes back to his wife saying "for the first time I'm proud to be an American." I think they both hate the Euro white system that built America the way it is and want that system replaced by some form of socialism. They certainly want pay back, to punish the "elite white" structure.

[Oberon]

Or perhaps...just perhaps, it's the vast ideological gulf between what some Americans want and what other Americans want, and Obama is the hate figure of those who want one thing, and liked by those who want another.

Ya know...just saying...

[Tribesman]

Or perhaps...just perhaps, it's the vast ideological gulf between what some Americans want and what other Americans want
That sounds far too sensible, please leave the topic at once.

[Armistead]

Or perhaps...just perhaps, it's the vast ideological gulf between what some Americans want and what other Americans want, and Obama is the hate figure of those who want one thing, and liked by those who want another.

Ya know...just saying...


Well, certainly cultures change and no doubt America is going to look much different in a mere 50 years. The question remain is how it's done, with or without following our laws, our constitution, etc. We know the Dems want a mass influx of votes from South America, more socialism, welfare, supported by a mass large govt. We also know from history this has always ruined nations. People like Obama I think prefer a one world govt based on socialism and one can only look to Europe to see how it's working out.

As I believe Skybird once said, the world utopia of the un-identity man, all singing Kum Ba Yah hand in hand...

[Jimbuna]

a one world govt based on socialism and one can only look to Europe to see how it's working out.

Not very well, many would argue.

[Skybird]

What do you have against a united mankind under one better-knowing political elite where everybody is being forced to be equal...? :88) Are you for injustice, discrimination and social inequality? :stare: Shame on you!

But lets face it, Armistead - in America you are already folloiwng the Euripean trail. The two party system and the pretending of a functioning democracy, is a farce. An corrupt elite already is in control, that cannot be voted against and cannot be pushed out of office. Voter bribery by politicians and demands by voters for state-provided nanny-services and all-inclusive security turn the American model into the same socialist tyranny like in Europe. You lag behind some years, yes. But you are riding the same train. We sit in the front waggon, you sit in the last waggon. But it is the same train on the same track. With growing shifts in the electorate's ethnic balance, the trend can only become more and more apparent in the coming years.

[Armistead]

Not very well, many would argue.

I think it's an issue of wealth, the Dems think they can equal it out by destroying wealth. That's basically what we're doing in America. The answer then is printing fake money or debt to sustain, which doesn't help the poor because of inflation...just visit your local grocery store. Obama knows a poor class supported by the govt will keep the Dems in power, this is the goal of the Dems....

Anyways, seems we're heading off topic

[eddie]

Yeah, I'd say you are getting way off topic now Armistead, especially when you start being a mouth piece for LImbaugh, and what exactly does this bull have to do with Israel and Hamas?

If you want to go down this road, how's the democracy thing doing in Iraq? I suppose you want the US military to go back to war over there again, just so your buddies, the defense industry can make a few more billion dollars and skip out on paying the taxes they are supposed to by hiding their profits over seas. The billions you Republicans wasted in the ME would have been better used on our borders with Mexico, eh!?!

Like I said, we could do this all damned day, but WHAT does this have to do with Israel????? Just more right wing bull is all:down::nope:

[mapuc]

And the Palestine will not get any help of support from their Muslim neighbor

It has always been us in the west that have pumped millions and millions in support to the Palestine people.

Markus

[Armistead]

And the Palestine will not get any help of support from their Muslim neighbor

It has always been us in the west that have pumped millions and millions in support to the Palestine people.

Markus


Yea, and what do they do with it?

[Armistead]

Yeah, I'd say you are getting way off topic now Armistead, especially when you start being a mouth piece for LImbaugh, and what exactly does this bull have to do with Israel and Hamas?

If you want to go down this road, how's the democracy thing doing in Iraq? I suppose you want the US military to go back to war over there again, just so your buddies, the defense industry can make a few more billion dollars and skip out on paying the taxes they are supposed to by hiding their profits over seas. The billions you Republicans wasted in the ME would have been better used on our borders with Mexico, eh!?!

Like I said, we could do this all damned day, but WHAT does this have to do with Israel????? Just more right wing bull is all:down::nope:

Nope, thought the war was a joke. I believed at that time we would inherit the civil war there kept under control by Hussein. I believe it takes a nut like him to control areas like that.. You can't install democracy when the religion of the area doesn't want it, so as far as I'm concerned we stay out and let em kill each other as always..

[AngusJS]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israel-bans-radio-advert-listing-names-children-killed-gaza

[Oberon]

That sounds far too sensible, please leave the topic at once.

I apologise profusely for being vaguely left wing and partaking in this forum. :03:

I shall now eject.

http://media.giphy.com/media/cUNsXlXK7HMUo/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/JGF7ctowtLGak/giphy.gif

[mapuc]

Yea, and what do they do with it?

the money should be in support of the Palestinian people, money is unfortunately used for something else

Found this qoute by some UN-person ABBA Eban

If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abbaeban167935.html)

I think UN should disassemble themselves

Markus

[MH]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israel-bans-radio-advert-listing-names-children-killed-gaza


Now tell me how much you care about the children ....

Shame on B'Tselem and their cynical use of children but I guess it is exactly what they wanted....

The only job they seem to be getting done is exactly the job Hamas wants them to do.

How so please explain.
How would you deal with Gaza and hamas?

[Armistead]

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/Armistead1424082/10464139_843264602359118_6880018304034909399_n_zps c1119080.jpg

[Tribesman]

Found this qoute by some UN-person ABBA Eban

If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abbaeban167935.html)

I think UN should disassemble themselves

Aubrey Eban was involved with drafting two UN resolutions after the creation of Israel.
One passed with no abstentions and no votes against, the other passed with no votes against and one abstension.
Prior to the creation of Israel he was involved in another resolution which passed to his satisfaction with 13 votes against it and 10 abstentions.
So it does seem like his quote is based on bollox.

[Tribesman]

How so please explain.

You and Armistead have explained it a dozen times already, and you both seem to support it.
It is why I can call you Hamas supporters.

[MH]

the money should be in support of the Palestinian people, money is unfortunately used for something else

Found this qoute by some UN-person ABBA Eban

If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abbaeban167935.html)

I think UN should disassemble themselves

Markus


Israel[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_Nations_Human_Rights_Counci l&action=edit&section=17)]

See also: Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations)
Overview[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_Nations_Human_Rights_Counci l&action=edit&section=18)]

As of 2014, Israel had been condemned in 50 resolutions by the Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 50 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance).[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-51) By April 2007, the Council had passed eleven resolutions condemning Israel, the only country which it had specifically condemned.[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-economistcouncil-52) Toward Sudan, a country with human rights abuses as documented by the Council's working groups, it has expressed "deep concern".[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-economistcouncil-52)
The council voted on 30 June 2006 to make a review of alleged human rights abuses by Israel a permanent feature of every council session. The Council's special rapporteur on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict) is its only expert mandate with no year of expiry. The resolution, which was sponsored by Organisation of the Islamic Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation), passed by a vote of 29 to 12 with five abstentions. Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) urged it to look at international human rights and humanitarian law violations committed by Palestinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) armed groups as well. Human Rights Watch called on the Council to avoid the selectivity that discredited its predecessor and urged it to hold special sessions on other urgent situations, such as that in Darfur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur).[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-53)
The Special Rapporteur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Rapporteur) on the question of Palestine to the previous UNCHR, the current UNHRC and the General Assembly was, between 2001 and 2008, John Dugard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dugard). Bayefski quotes him as saying that his mandate is to "investigate human rights violations by Israel only, not by Palestinians".[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-54) Dugard was replaced in 2008 with Richard Falk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Falk), who has compared Israel's treatment of Palestinians with the Nazis' treatment of Jews during the Holocaust.[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-55)[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-franks-56)[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-57) Like his predecessor, Falk's mandate only covers Israel’s human rights record.[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-58) The Palestinian Authority has informally asked Falk to resign, among other reasons due to viewing him as "a partisan of Hamas". Falk disputes this and has called the reasons given "essentially untrue".[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-59) In July 2011, Richard Falk posted a cartoon some critics has described as anti-Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitic) onto his blog. The cartoon depicted a bloodthirsty dog with the word "USA" on it wearing a kippah, or Jewish headcovering.[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-60)[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-61)[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-62)[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-63) In response, Falk was heavily criticized by world leaders in the United States and certain Europen countries.[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-64) The United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) called Falk's behavior "shameful and outrageous" and "an embarrassment to the United Nations", and officially called on him to resign. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ileana_Ros-Lehtinen), chairwoman of the U.S. House of Representatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_House_of_Representatives) Committee on Foreign Affairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Committee_on_Foreign_Affairs), called on Falk to resign as well. The Anti-Defamation League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League) described the cartoon as a "message of hatred".[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-65)[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-66)[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-67)
The UN Human Rights Council was castigated by Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu for facilitating an event featuring a Hamas politician. The Hamas parliamentarian had spoken at an NGO event in the UN Geneva building. Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations Ron Prosor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Prosor) denounced the speech stating that Hamas was an internationally recognized terrorist organization that targeted civilians. “Inviting a Hamas terrorist to lecture to the world about human rights is like asking Charles Manson to run the murder investigation unit at the NYPD”, he said.[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-jpost.com-68)

....

[MH]

You and Armistead have explained it a dozen times already, and you both seem to support it.
It is why I can call you Hamas supporters.

Please explain how Israel should deal with Gaza the proper way...

[Buddahaid]

By following the shining example of peace between Catholics and Protestants in Belfast perhaps?

[Armistead]

the money should be in support of the Palestinian people, money is unfortunately used for something else

Found this qoute by some UN-person ABBA Eban

If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abbaeban167935.html)

I think UN should disassemble themselves

Markus

Wasn't Eban a diplomat from the 50's.....

[Armistead]

You and Armistead have explained it a dozen times already, and you both seem to support it.
It is why I can call you Hamas supporters.


You saying it 100 times for your own benefit doesn't make it true..

But yes, I support Hamas....I support their total destruction.

[Armistead]

A good doc on Iraq, the numerous blunders of Bush and even worse blunders of Obama not listening to men that know. I think more it shows the deadly uprising of where ISIS is leading and radical Islam.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/losing-iraq/

With all the turmoil in the ME, never knowing what new leaders, how radical they will be, what groups will merge together, it would be insanity for Israel to give any land. A short video, yes, Israels view, but nonetheless true, why they can't give up land or control of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0

[Skybird]

As a matter of fact Israel has given back land on occasions. And got immediately shot at from there.

[Oberon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4JCPckWgY

[Tribesman]

You saying it 100 times for your own benefit doesn't make it true..

What makes it true is your own words.

Wasn't Eban a diplomat from the 50's.....
Yes and later decades, his work include 181 242&338.
You may recall that I mentioned those a while ago in the topic and suggested they be read by people before they make claims.



Nice link MH.
Someone seems to be going mad with editing that page:03:
It's rather silly making some of those claims when the primary materials are openly available:rotfl2:
I do like the complaints about a specific body only dealing with human rights violations in occupied territories when it is set up to only deal with violations of international law regarding occupied territories.
Funny that isn't it, if a body is set up under a mandate to deal with a specific set of laws it only deals with territory covered by those laws:haha:
But that means it only deals with Israeli violations according to your very neutral link:Kaleun_Crying:...well apart from all the other places it deals with in the period which are covered by the same laws.

Important lesson for ya there MH, when using wiki always check the sources

[Tribesman]

As a matter of fact Israel has given back land on occasions. And got immediately shot at from there.
Interesting view.
Now if I take 100 pieces of gold off you and give you back 10 pieces of silver are you a happy bunny?
On the other hand if I take 100 pieces of gold off you and give you back 10 pieces of silver and a third party gives you $1.3 billion per annum would you call that a peace deal?
Notice the subtle difference?

[MH]

Interesting view.
Now if I take 100 pieces of gold off you and give you back 10 pieces of silver are you a happy bunny?
On the other hand if I take 100 pieces of gold off you and give you back 10 pieces of silver and a third party gives you $1.3 billion per annum would you call that a peace deal?
Notice the subtle difference?
Ok then lol lets stick to the point then , please answer my question how Israel should deal with Gaza.


A good doc on Iraq, the numerous blunders of Bush and even worse blunders of Obama not listening to men that know. I think more it shows the deadly uprising of where ISIS is leading and radical Islam.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/losing-iraq/
Good documentary.

[Tribesman]

Ok then lol lets stick to the point then please answer my question how Israel should deal with Gaza.

Well its like this, I am a foreigner and a mick so obviously I don't know nuffin.:har:

[Armistead]

Well its like this, I am a foreigner and a mick so obviously I don't know nuffin.:har:

First reasonable thing that you've said the entire debate..

[MH]

Well its like this, I am a foreigner and a mick so obviously I don't know nuffin.:har:

hmm ok I though so....here we are...:haha:

So tell me why do you participate in this thread besides posting :Dsmiles like we all do lol.

[Oberon]

By that logic, MH should be the only person in this thread. :hmmm:

[Armistead]

hmm ok I though so....here we are...:haha:

So tell me why do you participate in this thread besides posting :Dsmiles like we all do lol.

he's in it for distance and irritation..

[MH]

By that logic, MH should be the only person in this thread. :hmmm:

By that logic he is the only one with the answers yet he post smiles and some remarks.
It would be interesting if he shared with us some thought considering that he is so sure of his own righteousness.
He might convince me and others...who knows.

[Tribesman]

First reasonable thing that you've said the entire debate..

Yet you have not even managed that:har:
So Armistead once again, why exactly do you support Hamas?
Why are you consistently supporting actions which you aim to oppose?

By that logic, MH should be the only person in this thread. :hmmm: Yes, but his bunkervision gives such a restricted narrow view that he cannot really see anything and is permanently on the defensive

He might convince me and others...who knows.
Sorry, but racists tend to be immune from being convinced by reason

[MH]

Looks like stalemate.:haha:

[MH]

Yes, but his bunkervision gives such a restricted narrow view that he cannot really see anything and is permanently on the defensive


So I ask you once again help me that tribesman.
What is the proper way to deal with Gaza and hamas.

[Tribesman]

What is the proper way to deal with Gaza and hamas.
Is that one question or two?

[MH]

Is that one question or two?
Two.

[u crank]

The only thing missing here is the laugh track.:D

[Oberon]

The only thing missing here is the laugh track.:D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Healthywealthy.jpg

:haha::haha::har: :up:

[Tribesman]

Two.
Well done.
Perhaps you could tell Armistead that the terms he uses are not interchangeable, he still hasn't got the message.:03:

[MH]

The only thing missing here is the laugh track.:D

please don't dearly the thread:haha:

[MH]

Well done.
Perhaps you could tell Armistead that the terms he uses are not interchangeable, he still hasn't got the message.:03:

....ok never mind the bullox.

[Buddahaid]

Well done.
Perhaps you could tell Armistead that the terms he uses are not interchangeable, he still hasn't got the message.:03:

It would help speed things along if you would make your points clearly instead of assigning homework questions as if you're the master Jedi speaking to errant students, but you've heard that before. I do like to read what you post when you finally gets cornered into explaining your point directly. Do go on.

[Armistead]

Well done.
Perhaps you could tell Armistead that the terms he uses are not interchangeable, he still hasn't got the message.:03:

the only thing interchangeable is the words you keep putting in everyones mouth..

[MH]

It would help speed things along if you would make your points clearly instead of assigning homework questions as if you're the master Jedi speaking to errant students, but you've heard that before. I do like to read what you post when you finally gets cornered into explaining your point directly. Do go on.

Explaining his point directly might put him in a situation in which he might have to deal with contra arguments.
It is much easer for him to do what he does...I did not expect anything else.

[Tribesman]

the only thing interchangeable is the words you keep putting in everyones mouth..
Really?
Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, Islamists, Hamas.
Choose which one you want to talk about in relation to a specific thing and stick to it, don't switch words which are not interchangeable.

It would help speed things along if you would make your points clearly instead of assigning homework questions as if you're the master Jedi speaking to errant students, but you've heard that before.
Ah but its nearly all there already.
If people cannot get the foundation right they can't get any further.

The two key questions are....
in relation to the military action ....what purpose does it serve, does it serve its purpose?
In relation to the blockade...what purpose does it serve, does it serve its purpose?
The follow up to each of those is ...who benefits?

These people know the answer.
It serves Hamas but that is not the intention, it serves Hamas but that is not the intention, it benefits Hamas*2.

Their reaction is "but Hamas made us do it", "it is what Hamas wants us to do".
It is why I can say they are Hamas supporters.:03:

[mapuc]

On the yesterdays news, we could see a female journalist from al al jazeera talking infront of a hospital when suddenly a rocket was fired behind her.

What more evidence does people need...

Markus

[Tribesman]

What more evidence does people need...
Evidence of what?
That Hamas are very naughty boys?
If you needed more evidence for that then where have you been for the last couple of decades?

Consider this mapuc , some horrible little brats fill a paper bag with doggydoo leave it on your doorstep and set fire to it, they knock on your door and wait to watch you stomp on the bag to put out the flames.
You now have crap on your feet.
How many times are you going to respond in exactly the same way to the knock on the door just to end up with excrement on your feet again?
It's a very silly person who does exactly what the naughty little boys want them to do time after time.

[MH]

The two key questions are....
in relation to the military action ....what purpose does it serve, does it serve its purpose?
Lets not answer the for know what propose it serves.
Question is how Israel should have responded in the light of latest events.
Rocket/mortar bombardment and tunnels to near by border towns.
Lets not forget that towns around Gaza are under threat all the time , it absurdly has become a a normality when something falls once/twice a week year around ...news don't even report this.
a weather.
Ask the people around there how they feel about.
The escalation happens when rockets fall on Tel Aviv....that what you hear on the news.



In relation to the blockade...what purpose does it serve, does it serve its purpose?
The follow up to each of those is ...who benefits?
Lets imagine there is no blockade and goods will flow freely what do you thing will happen?

[mapuc]

Evidence of what?
That Hamas are very naughty boys?
If you needed more evidence for that then where have you been for the last couple of decades?

Consider this mapuc , some horrible little brats fill a paper bag with doggydoo leave it on your doorstep and set fire to it, they knock on your door and wait to watch you stomp on the bag to put out the flames.
You now have crap on your feet.
How many times are you going to respond in exactly the same way to the knock on the door just to end up with excrement on your feet again?
It's a very silly person who does exactly what the naughty little boys want them to do time after time.

My question was more like a question to my self or an open question don't know how to explain it

Don't know by you. but the last few weeks I have lost a few FB-friends because I have said I supported Israel and they should put their critich where the critics belongs.

Even though I support Israel I do not support them 110 % I'm very critic about their way of wageing war against the civilan people in Gaza.

Then the question is who is civilians and who is HAMAS soldiers?

I do hope they will find a peace solution to the benefit of the Palestine people.

Sorry if I wrote very unclear

Markus

[MH]

My question was more like a question to my self or an open question don't know how to explain it

Don't know by you. but the last few weeks I have lost a few FB-friends because I have said I supported Israel and they should put their critich where the critics belongs.

Even though I support Israel I do not support them 110 % I'm very critic about their way of wageing war against the civilan people in Gaza.

Then the question is who is civilians and who is HAMAS soldiers?

I do hope they will find a peace solution to the benefit of the Palestine people.

Sorry if I wrote very unclear

Markus

Ask you self what kind of people they are if they don't want to be your friends because you ask questions.
Probably this militant antagonist type who don't want to hear any thing besides whatever supports their views.

[Armistead]

Evidence of what?
That Hamas are very naughty boys?
If you needed more evidence for that then where have you been for the last couple of decades?

Consider this mapuc , some horrible little brats fill a paper bag with doggydoo leave it on your doorstep and set fire to it, they knock on your door and wait to watch you stomp on the bag to put out the flames.
You now have crap on your feet.
How many times are you going to respond in exactly the same way to the knock on the door just to end up with excrement on your feet again?
It's a very silly person who does exactly what the naughty little boys want them to do time after time.

I wouldn't be dumb enough to step in the poo, maybe the fact use would use this and an analogy shows that you would...

[mapuc]

I do know how HAMAS is fighting IDF and I do know how they use civilians and how they fire rockets, mortars from civilian areas such as Hospital.

The information I got from different newspaper and newschannel makes the evidence overwhelming that there ain't no doubt.

This is what I have written on some of my friends wall

The first victim in a war is the truth and the informal winner is Propaganda

Markus

[Armistead]

I do know how HAMAS is fighting IDF and I do know how they use civilians and how they fire rockets, mortars from civilian areas such as Hospital.

The information I got from different newspaper and newschannel makes the evidence overwhelming that there ain't no doubt.

This is what I have written on some of my friends wall

The first victim in a war is the truth and the informal winner is Propaganda

Markus

You can watch numerous youtube by Hamas, not only herding civilians into areas where their rockets are, refusing to let them leave areas Israel has marked for bombing.....They also use kids as look outs in war zones as basic front men.....often they get killed in the fray...

[Skybird]

The attack tunnels built by Hamas into Israel as well as a good amount of the smuggling tunnels at the Egyptian border are build by children for the most, due to their small size. For the year 2012 alone Hamas once admitted that over 150 children died - one can safely assume that the real number per year is much greater.

A German publicist yesterday compared Hamas to the the black knight in that famous Monthy Python scene. Problem is, Arthur may be right, and may have the ight to pass along (what the black knight denies to him) and he may be the better fighter, obviously, since he hacks the dark knight into pieces - but Arthur really looks like a moral moron when hacking at that armless, helpless torso, and while Arthur wins the hacking competition, the black knight just refuses to recognise his defeat and claims moral victory all time long although he just is an armless, legless torso with a babbling head on it.

Seems to hack off arms and legs but not the head was were Arthur went wrong.

Internet forums know such black trolls, too, btw. Just that on the web they are not called black knights, but trolls. ;)

[Skybird]

Oh. My. God.

Whenever I think I have seen the highest possible peak of BS possible for man to erect, somebody comes along and climbs on top of it and adds another shovel of brown stuff.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183616#.U96izM1Z-FV


In what may be one of the most ridiculous accusations yet against Israel, the UN's top human rights official condemned Israel on Thursday for failing to share the Iron Dome anti-missile system with Hamas, Breitbart reports.
(...)
She backed this statement by citing Israel’s refusal to share its Iron Dome ballistic missile defense shield with the "governing authority" of Gaza.
:dead: The climax of stupidity. Or a new climax of antisemitism by UN representatives. Or most likely: both.

Ban Ki Moon condemned Israel for targeting UN schools form which Hamas opened fire at Israel. He never acted on behalf of those schools when Hamas build there military infrastructure inside them, or in their closest vicinity in the hope to provoke more collateral damage. But when Jewish delegates, no matter their nationality, at the conference of the African Union end of June were lead out by demand of the Muhamedan bloc, he just sat still and did not lose a single word of protest, this moron. I know I mention this act of diplomatic discrimination, racism and hate on Jews for the third or even fourth time. Its just that I still cannot believe it. One would expect to read something like this in history books only, or about the Third Reich. One is tempted to ask whether the Jewish delegates who were led out really arrived back home alive, or just disappeared once they were led out of the assembly hall.

---

On another news yesterday I learned that among the ISIS mobs, Turks are forming the biggest group of non-Arabic "mercenaries", joining in greater numbers than Muslims from any other non-Arabic country. Several hundred Germans should be amongst ISIS, too (don't ask me wether "German" here means Turks with German wellfare entitlements, or Germans by cultural identity that de facto have no Turkish migration background...). I cant stand the wait for the day when they return back to dear old Germany... They are precious members and a cultural enrichment of the multicultural new Germany, and we should really benefit from their travelling experiences.

[Tribesman]

I wouldn't be dumb enough to step in the poo, maybe the fact use would use this and an analogy shows that you would...
Yet you are cheering people who are not only stepping in it they are happily rolling around in it.
So why do you support Hamas and why do you hate Israel?
I mean you must really hate them to be cheering on actions which you acknowledge are really dumb.

Lets not answer the for know what propose it serves.

Why not, if it serves the purpose of handing Hamas the headlines it wants to sell to the worlds media and their governments and populations don't you think that is a core issue?
Those naughty boys are playing a propaganda game and you keep happily handing them the winning cards.

Question is how Israel should have responded in the light of latest events.

Run through the chain of events from the past couple of weeks, you know the period when normal routine silliness escalated into the quite nasty recent bout of silliness.
What was the stupid over reaction which kicked off the increase in rocket fire?

Lets imagine there is no blockade and goods will flow freely what do you thing will happen?
No blockade?
Did I say no blockade at all?
Adapt the blockade so Hamas is no longer raking in the money smuggling normal everyday neccesities. Regional events have severely impacted their other sources of revenue
It lessens their stranglehold on so many aspects of the populations everyday lives.
Relax the trade restrictions, idle hands make....well you know.
You cannot lessen the power of Hamas in the territory by helping them and screwing the population, you need to not help them and stop screwing the population.

[Tribesman]

Oh. My. God.

Can you do any better than a settler propaganda publication repeating a take from a wingnut website?:har:
The sparcity of the quotation marks should tell you how much they actually quoted.:03:

[MH]

No blockade?
Did I say no blockade at all?
Adapt the blockade so Hamas is no longer raking in the money smuggling normal everyday neccesities. Regional events have severely impacted their other sources of revenue
It lessens their stranglehold on so many aspects of the populations everyday lives.
Relax the trade restrictions, idle hands make....well you know.
You cannot lessen the power of Hamas in the territory by helping them and screwing the population, you need to not help them and stop screwing the population.

The usual , let the free trade flow everyone will be happy - hamas will disappear.
I think there is more to this and you know it too.
Hamas took over when the gazans had been supposed to have their hopes up.
Israel left , hamas kicked out the fatah later.
So where the all money and supply come from from , just from the tunnels?
Where most the building material went after the restrictions had been lifted a bit?

So you think that all the tunnels and rockets don't justify military action?
Israel should just stick with the "normal" situation and hope for the best regarding the tunnels?

IMHO Actually the only solution here , instead of all this rounds we have once in a while is totally disarming the terrorist by force by taking over gaza and then turning this place to PA once again.
Maybe after all this crap Gazans will be smarter in the future.
That is unless Egypt and the rest don't find a way to disarm hamas or stop founds flowing.
After Israel went "crazy" things are moving ahead a bit but it is too early to say.
We all know though that conquering Gaza will be PR political and humanitarian disaster.
Don't think anybody has stomach for that...slow bloodshed is more manageable politically so lets just call it hawkish solution and the daily routine we have a "normal" situation.

[MH]

Oh. My. God.

Whenever I think I have seen the highest possible peak of BS possible for man to erect, somebody comes along and climbs on top of it and adds another shovel of brown stuff.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183616#.U96izM1Z-FV

:dead: The climax of stupidity. Or a new climax of antisemitism by UN representatives. Or most likely: both.

Ban Ki Moon condemned Israel for targeting UN schools form which Hamas opened fire at Israel. He never acted on behalf of those schools when Hamas build there military infrastructure inside them, or in their closest vicinity in the hope to provoke more collateral damage. But when Jewish delegates, no matter their nationality, at the conference of the African Union end of June were lead out by demand of the Muhamedan bloc, he just sat still and did not lose a single word of protest, this moron. I know I mention this act of diplomatic discrimination, racism and hate on Jews for the third or even fourth time. Its just that I still cannot believe it. One would expect to read something like this in history books only, or about the Third Reich. One is tempted to ask whether the Jewish delegates who were led out really arrived back home alive, or just disappeared once they were led out of the assembly hall.

---

On another news yesterday I learned that among the ISIS mobs, Turks are forming the biggest group of non-Arabic "mercenaries", joining in greater numbers than Muslims from any other non-Arabic country. Several hundred Germans should be amongst ISIS, too (don't ask me wether "German" here means Turks with German wellfare entitlements, or Germans by cultural identity that de facto have no Turkish migration background...). I cant stand the wait for the day when they return back to dear old Germany... They are precious members and a cultural enrichment of the multicultural new Germany, and we should really benefit from their travelling experiences.

Well I don't know if it is true or not but you should not relay too much on arutz 7.
You want some right wing stuff that makes sense?
Jerusalem Post is better.
Ynet is a bit of this and that.
Haaretz is ok but also has some leftwing radicals who can hardly be called journalists.

[Armistead]

The usual let the free trade everyone will be happy and hamas will disappear.
I think there is more to this and you know it too.
Hamas took over when the gazans had been supposed to have their hopes up.
Israel left , hamas kicked out the fatah later.
So where the all money and supply come from from , just from the tunnels?
Where most the building material went after the restrictions had been lifted a bit?

So you think that all the tunnels and rockets don't justify military action?
Israel should just stick with the "normal" situation and hope for the best regarding the tunnels?

IMHO Actually the only solution here , instead of all this round we have once in a while is totally disarming the terrorist by force by taking over gaza and then turning this place to PA once again.
Maybe after all this crap Gazans will be smarter in the future.
That is unless Egypt and the rest don't find a way to disarm hamas or stop founds flowing.
After Israel went "crazy" things are moving ahead a bit but it is too early to say.
We all know though that conquering Gaza will be PR political and humanitarian disaster.
Don't think anybody has stomach for that...slow bloodshed is more manageable politically so lets just call it hawkish solution and the daily routine we have a "normal" situation.

I think Tribesman just thinks it's unfair that Israel has an Iron Dome that has stopped over 1000 rockets from raining down on civilians. Think of this hypocrisy, Hamas certainly hoped a few 100 would hit and kill mass civilians. These rocket attacks are attacks on civilians, worse than Israel, even though most don't succeed.

[Skybird]

Reuters for example has the story as well, MH, giving it a slightly different tone, but still saying the same. Also in some German blogs and international blogs. The difference, dpeending on the source, is that some sitesa make it appear as if she is more attacking Israel for not sharing Iron Dome with the Arabs, and sometimes the US get her anger for the Us assisting Israel but not forcing it to share it.

And no, the sits I saw it on did not share references amongst each other or just pasted and copied what the other had written.

Pillay has a known reputation of extreme bias against Israel and for Arabs. Amongst the many known knowns at the UN, she is a very well-known known, to borrow terminology from Rumsfeld.

[Alex]

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/clash-of-civilizations.html
Clash Of Civilizations

Monday, August 4, 2014 at 7:52AM Gilad Atzmon
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CW70dxH-ZAc/UYZybdIka_I/AAAAAAAAOMs/rHsOnxQB7Is/s1600/Why-America-and-Israel-Are-the-Greatest-Threats-to-Peace.jpgThe Israeli army confirmed today (http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/.premium-1.2396220) that up to 130 Palestinian civilians were slaughtered in Rafah last Friday following the triggering of the Hannibal protocol - an IDF directive that is designed to thwart the capture of Israeli combatants. Israel unleashed its full firepower and flattened an entire neighbourhood using tanks, artillery and gunships murdering130 Palestinians just to make sure that one Israeli soldier, Lt. Hadar Goldin didn’t fall into Hamas’ hands alive.
The only interpretation of this massacre is that Israel is a homicidal state completely immune to international conventions and without any respect for civilian lives.
In the light of the actions taken by the Jewish State in the last few days and the overwhelming support for Israel from Jews around the world, it is evident that we are witnessing a clash of civilizations. Humanity is faced with a savage tribe that shows a complete absence of empathy yet for some peculiar reason believes itself to be chosen.
For the sake of world peace, humanity has to use whatever resources it has to dismantle the Jewish State and its lobby.
Enough is enough.Anything - constructive - to add, anyone ? :hmm2:

[Sailor Steve]

Anything - constructive - to add, anyone ? :hmm2:
Why? You didn't.

[MH]

Anything - constructive - to add, anyone ?

Yes...construct more tunnels.

[AngusJS]

Now tell me how much you care about the children ....

Shame on B'Tselem and their cynical use of children but I guess it is exactly what they wanted....?As usual MH, your counterarguments are devastating. :roll: And obviously you could not care less about any Palestinians.

So according to you, the real tragedy here is not the killing of children, but the fact that an Israeli human rights group tries to bring attention to it? And the suppression of their attempt is A-OK? How warped is your world view?

Is it possible in your mind for Israel to do anything wrong ever, besides be "too soft"?

[MH]

As usual MH, your counterarguments are devastating. :roll: And obviously you could not care less about any Palestinians.

So according to you, the real tragedy here is not the killing of children, but the fact that an Israeli human rights group tries to bring attention to it? And the suppression of their attempt is A-OK? How warped is your world view?

Is it possible in your mind for Israel to do anything wrong ever, besides be "too soft"?

Where do you think we live?
We don't know what is going on there?
Pushing it through IBA was just stupid provocation.
it is funny how people fall for this idiotic issue of Israeli media suppressing thing and question democracy and free press...after all that what it was all about.
Not the children.
Just read haaretz.

As usual MH, your counterarguments are devastating. :roll: And obviously you could not care less about any Palestinians.

I care for them more than they care for themselves.
It is time people sopped regarding them ALL as little children.

[mapuc]

I'll be honest I respect most of the members attitude in this discussion, there is one post I Simply can't respect or I dislike it.

Markus

[Oberon]

Yes...construct more tunnels.

Additional pylons needed.

[Buddahaid]

I'll be honest I respect most of the members attitude in this discussion, there is one post I Simply can't respect or I dislike it.

Markus

Never say "to be honest" or "to tell the truth". I know it's a figure of speech but it implies you don't tell the truth or be honest otherwise.

I'm not sure how one could open trade to Gaza and deny HAMAS their war goods at the same time. Every shipment would be suspected war material.

[MH]

In reality after all the concession the blockade is joke anyway
Israel blocks the airspace and sea for obvous reasons while restricting some goods through land crossing.
The policy of undermining hamas through it was abandoned.
All the humanitarian disaster issue is and was nonsense for those who want to go along with it.. a propaganda weapon.

[Tribesman]

The usual , let the free trade flow everyone will be happy - hamas will disappear.


.

And where did I say that?
I think there is more to this and you know it too.

Yes lots more

Hamas took over when the gazans had been supposed to have their hopes up.

By what measure?

So where the all money and supply come from from , just from the tunnels?

Are you saying Israel is shipping Hamas its money and supplies?

Where most the building material went after the restrictions had been lifted a bit?

Israel said these constructions predate the lifting of the total ban.
Building supplies are still restricted and monitored aren't they.

So you think that all the tunnels and rockets don't justify military action?

And where did I say that?

Israel should just stick with the "normal" situation and hope for the best regarding the tunnels?

You are making a lot of strawmen.

IMHO Actually the only solution here , instead of all this rounds we have once in a while is totally disarming the terrorist by force by taking over gaza and then turning this place to PA once again.

Is that achievable or desirable?

After Israel went "crazy" things are moving ahead a bit but it is too early to say.

I think it is late enough to say nothing has changed.

We all know though that conquering Gaza will be PR political and humanitarian disaster.

Yes.

Don't think anybody has stomach for that...
There is no shortage of people who are in favour of that silly action.

slow bloodshed is more manageable politically so lets just call it hawkish solution and the daily routine we have a "normal" situation
But you need something that is manageable on both a political and productive level, that's the catch.



I think Tribesman just thinks it's unfair that Israel has an Iron Dome that has stopped over 1000 rockets from raining down on civilians.
Still flailing away Armistead?:haha:
Why is it you are a Hamas supporter?

@the sky
Reuters for example has the story as well, MH, giving it a slightly different tone, but still saying the same. Also in some German blogs and international blogs. The difference, dpeending on the source, is that some sitesa make it appear as if she is more attacking Israel for not sharing Iron Dome with the Arabs, and sometimes the US get her anger for the Us assisting Israel but not forcing it to share it.


So your sources don't agree with each other on what was said?
They can't even agree on what country she was talking about.
Is that a strong indication that your story is not what it is pretending to be?
Wouldn't it be handy if something like a speech delivered in front of lots of TV cameras was available on errrr...video:rotfl2:

[MH]

I'm on the phone so I can't play this silly sentence quoting game.
It would be nice if you describe what is practical ,productive and manageable.
..as for the tunnels yes… some are older and some not...
Milions of dollars whent into them though.

[Skybird]

http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2014/08/05/egypt-still-trying-to-crush-hamas/


As WRM pointed out recently (http://www.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2014/07/25/the-gaza-war-when-strategies-collide/), this round of Israel-Palestinian fighting was particularly protracted because core interests are at stake. This was the case not merely for Israel and Hamas, but in regard to the Arab actors in the region who would normally try to wind down a war when Israel was winning, if not openly aid the Palestinians. Instead, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and a number of other countries have been quietly urging Israel to give Hamas the pummeling they believe it needs.


Long-term, this may be promising for Israel, implying a sort of backhanded acceptance that may in time become more. Short-term, it helps to build an anti-Hamas, anti-Hezbollah, and ultimately anti-Iran consensus in the Middle East.

Interesting, for reasons I ndicated one or two posts of mine earlier. Interesting because Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and "a number of other countries" (quote) form one alliance against Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, while the Obamaniac US in its recent proposals tried to bring Turkey and Quatar into stronger and more influential positions, and beyond that tries to appease Iran more actively. Turkey is anti-Egypt and anti-Israel, Quatar is by now maybe the most active investor into Muslim terrorism and jihadism and has its hand in practically every "extremist" Muslim movement, and Iran silently sneaks forward to the the starting line for its final usprise sprint towards the bomb.

[Tribesman]

Interesting,
Interesting indeed.
Isn't that the bloke who thought invading Iraq was a really good idea?:oops:

[Von Tonner]

I don't know if any of the posters in this thread have ever watched CNN's reporter in Gaza, Karl Penhaul.

Well 10 minutes ago on CNN he outdid himself with his comment while picking his way through the rubble/aftermath of a street in Gaza. His comment - quoting the UN, his comrade in arms was this.

"It is going to take Gaza 30 years to rebuild what has been destroyed by Israel"

This journalist - and I use the word lightly with regards to him - is simply neauseating to watch and listen to.

Someone needs to whisper in his biased ears that in Hiroshima, after 90% of the approx 76,000 homes that were destroyed, a new vibrant city arose after ONLY 8 to 10 years.

But in all fairness to Karl, the difference is is that the citizens of Hiroshima were not saddled with an organisation of the ilk of Hamas who channel ANY and ALL MONEY, SUPPLIES, from benefactors who come forward etc into buying more rockets and building more tunnels perpetuating the misery of the citizens of Gaza.

Something he clearly has no understanding of.

[Tribesman]

wow that's amazing Von Tonner
Hiroshima got rebuilt.
I wonder how much a couple of hundred million per year in 1940s money would equal nowadays?
Can you point to the occupying power which is going to stump up that cash:rotfl2:

[Von Tonner]

wow that's amazing Von Tonner
Hiroshima got rebuilt.
I wonder how much a couple of hundred million per year in 1940s money would equal nowadays?
Can you point to the occupying power which is going to stump up that cash:rotfl2:

You seriously need to stop whatever it is you are smoking.

[Tribesman]

You seriously need to stop whatever it is you are smoking.
Yeah right:doh:
So onto Something he clearly has no understanding of.
The marshall plan did Europe,what was the allies reconstruction plan for the far eastern axis country?
Who knows , maybe Israel can do an adopt a gazan child program with its citizens to fund the rebuilding of schools just like America did in Japan.:rotfl2:

[Von Tonner]

Yeah right:doh:
So onto Something he clearly has no understanding of.
The marshall plan did Europe,what was the allies reconstruction plan for the far eastern axis country?
Who knows , maybe Israel can do an adopt a gazan child program with its citizens to fund the rebuilding of schools just like America did in Japan.:rotfl2:

Tribesman seriously... I mean no offence but why are you posting on a thread which clearly shows by your posts your are extremely ignorant of the facts in question.

You are no doubt oblivious of the fact that Israel provides approx 30% of Gaza's electrical power and has not been paid for such for the last 10 years. That's just to begin with. Never mind other countries contributions.

But those little inconveniences to such an ignoramus (troll) such as yourself are never taken into account.

In my country your type are referred to as a "wanker". In yours I think they call you a "tosser".

[Oberon]

Tribesman does have a point, but equally I suspect that Israel will assist in the repair efforts, likewise the various Muslim aid agencies and Palestinian supporters will chip in to assist.
I doubt it'll take 30 years, probably more like ten at the most, probably just in time for the next round of conflict. :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

You are no doubt oblivious of the fact that Israel provides approx 30% of Gaza's electrical power and has not been paid for such for the last 10 years. That's just to begin with. Never mind other countries contributions.

:rotfl2:clueless absolutely clueless , well done.
So now, that money would be paid from government tax revenues wouldn't it. They would then be recouped from GedCo who themselves get money from their customers
As I am ignorant could you tell me which country collects and holds a large slice of those tax revenues from which the money is taken?

BTW sorry to burst your bubble but you are way out on your figures.
Any luck working out what the hundreds of millions of 1940s dollars would amount to nowadays?:03:

[eddie]

I'm sure a country like Qatar could pay the bill of rebuilding Gaza without blinking an eye!

[Skybird]

No, Quatar is fully committed to spend its money for supporting Muslim terror organisation and global djihad.

The regional military command of the US is located in Quatar, btw. Must be a nuance of American humour that I do not understand.

UNRWA and Hamas practically the same thing in Gaza:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/defund-the-unrwa/

German: Wo bleibt die Verhältnismäßigkeit?
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article130901816/Sind-Muslime-wirklich-unfaehig-zur-Selbstkritik.html

[Tribesman]

I'm sure a country like Qatar could pay the bill of rebuilding Gaza without blinking an eye!
I don't know about that, after all they havn't paid all those immigrant workers building the world cup facilities.

UNRWA and Hamas practically the same thing in Gaza:
You are linking to a hell of a lot of fruitcake websites again lately.
I suppose there are two explanations for using such sites which share your views
1)the rest of the media is a big global conspiracy which doesn't share your view.
2)your views are rather fruity.

[MH]

No, Quatar is fully committed to spend its money for supporting Muslim terror organisation and global djihad.


They finance both.

UNRWA and Hamas practically the same thing in Gaza:

UNRWA and UN should rethink the way they operate...some money for hamas is transferred through UNRWA organization.

[MH]

Report: Hamas spokesperson attacked by Gaza civilians

Egyptian news report claims that Palestinians attacked Sami Abu Zuhri out of anger at Hamas for causing the latest round of violence with Israel.
Ynetnews

Palestinian civilians attacked Hamas spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri and beat him near Shifa Hospital in the Gaza Strip recently, according to a report on the Egyptian website Veto Gate.


According to the site, Abu Zuhri's attackers were expressing anger at Hamas, placing blame on the terrorist organization for inciting the IDF's Operation Protective Edge in which nearly 2,000 Palestinians were killed and some 10,000 homes destroyed.


The Egyptian report cited politician and spokesperson for the Sisi Supporters Front, Mohamed Abu Hamed, as saying that the Gaza Strip is ripe for a revolution to overthrow Hamas' rule over desperately impoverished Palestinians in the battered enclave.



http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer4/2014/07/29/5489970/54899660100099490326no.jpg
Many blame Hamas for the destruction in Gaza seen here after the IDF's Operation Protective Edge.


Abu Hamed added that public anger with Hamas had been growing previous to Israel's latest military option in the Strip and said that Gazans live in fear of the militant regime.


However Nabil Zaki, a spokesperson for the Tagamoa Party, a left-wing political group in Egypt, took a slightly opposing position in the Veto Gate report, saying that Palestinians are partly responsible for their plight as they voted Hamas into power, and that anger from civilians would bring few results without expanding into a revolution.


Meanwhile, Abu Hamed took the opportunity to attack the Egyptian regime's political opponents in the Veto Gate report saying that Palestinians and the international community were coming to the realization that Hamas is no different than the "Muslim Brotherhood terrorists."


The Muslim Brotherhood was in power for a brief in Egypt before the latest in a string of revolutions and the eventual election victory of Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who now heads a regime fiercely opposed to the Brotherhood which funded and politically aided Hamas in Gaza during its time in power.


Israel has continuously laid blame on Hamas for several rounds of conflict in the Gaza Strip, and was dismayed when Palestinians voted the terrorist group into a position of power before violently overthrowing the more moderate Palestinian Authority in Gaza.





It has been hoped on the Israeli side that Palestinian civilians will also see Hamas as responsible for the violence, but broad propaganda campaigns and suspected oppression of free speech in Gaza has made experts skeptical that a regime change could come from within the Strip....


...

[Armistead]

MH

I've read some of those reports from Israeli news sources. I hope they're true as well as the ones coming out of Egypt and not propaganda. Israel needs to keep up the pressure, not worry about world pressure....Only hope in this region is for Hamas to be destroyed.

[TarJak]

And how likely is that? Instead of talking nonsense, why not look for more practical options?

[Skybird]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/28/pinsker-corpse-pr-hamas-handbook/

http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-exclusive-video-hamas-rocket-launching-pad-near-gaza-homes-un-building/

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

[Schroeder]

why not look for more practical options?
Like what?
I'm actually out of answers when it comes to the middle east. Not that that would be difficult as I'm no expert on that matter but it seems the "experts" don't have any real answers either.:88)

[TarJak]

Almost any suggestion is better than Armistead's ridiculous destruction idea.

[MH]

Henry Kissinger seems to have solution lol.

[Tribesman]

Almost any suggestion is better than Armistead's ridiculous destruction idea.

Well he is not alone, if you look in the settler publication Skybird used there is a solution put forward.
Remove or kill the entire population, claim all the land and repopulate it with jews.
Now one could be forgiven in thinking that this was just some nut who is on the same level as the nuts in Hamas....I think the fact that he is not only an elected representative but is a Cabinet minister still makes him a nut that is on the same level as the nuts in Hamas.
I wonder if it puts the people who elected him and the government who appointed him on the same level as the Hamas nuts too?

[TarJak]

I have an intractable problem. :hmmm: I know, I'll destroy what I perceive to be the cause of the problem, even though I know I can't and will more than likely make the problem worse if I try. /sarcasm

[Dread Knot]

Seems to me what we have here is essentially a perpetual conflict machine in which the battle lines never seem to change. If Israel goes in full bore and destroys Hamas, something like Hamas or worse will simply take it's place. Hamas cannot destroy Israel not matter what fantasies they write in their charter.

Of course, no matter whose side you come down on, the better question is, "Okay, well how do we get out of this?" If you can’t accept the answer, "By both sides swallowing a bitter pill," then repeated rounds of mutual bombardment are all we’ll ever get until the Palestinians figure out how to defeat the Iron Dome or more likely succeeding in driving world opinion to the point that Israel is seen as a pariah state much as South Africa used to be. The only "out" for Israel is to devise a strategy that effectively amounts to nation-building in the Occupied Territories. One that may eventually lead to the conclusion that a two-state solution is functionally impossible given the natural geography of the region.

in the meantime, round and round.

[Armistead]

Seems to me what we have here is essentially a perpetual conflict machine in which the battle lines never seem to change. If Israel goes in full bore and destroys Hamas, something like Hamas or worse will simply take it's place. Hamas cannot destroy Israel not matter what fantasies they write in their charter.

Of course, no matter whose side you come down on, the better question is, "Okay, well how do we get out of this?" If you can’t accept the answer, "By both sides swallowing a bitter pill," then repeated rounds of mutual bombardment are all we’ll ever get until the Palestinians figure out how to defeat the Iron Dome or more likely succeeding in driving world opinion to the point that Israel is seen as a pariah state much as South Africa used to be. The only "out" for Israel is to devise a strategy that effectively amounts to nation-building in the Occupied Territories. One that may eventually lead to the conclusion that a two-state solution is functionally impossible given the natural geography of the region.

in the meantime, round and round.

I think you hit it on the head. One, we know there will never be a two state solution, not with Hamas, PLA or any group that won't accept Israels right to exist and claim plans to destroy them. The next problem is radical Islam taking over so much of the ME. I watched a lady on CNN last night speaking in some govt. forum in Iraq begging for help as ISIS is imposing true Islam on the north, even worse. They're killing civilians by the 1000's, raping and taking women and even lil girls into slavery. Syria over 200,000 dead. It seems we are getting worse trying to replace the dictators of the ME. Then Iran and Pakistan to worry about with possible nukes. Yesterdays radical Muslims are todays moderates... Who wouldn't want Hussein back now!

The truth is Islam has to be reformed, somehow get all of these people out of the dark ages or as Sam Harris says, Islam has to put away for the ME to ever have hope, but there's really no way to do it...not now, not with the climate to appease. We would have to wait for the next world war, the next round of major terror strikes in the world from ISIS or others before such resolve.

Iraq was a mistake. Bush blew it. Iraq needed a decade more of nation building under US control. Bush was more interested in saying he installed democracy. His biggest mistake was not listening to the military and experts in Iraq, he certainly shouldn't have disbanded the Iraqi army. But worse was Obama. He should've never set dates to leave, nor should we have left. We needed to run the nation, but we just didn't have the political climate to do so with Obama.

What does Iraq have to face. The past complaints of civilians we killed in the war, now replaced with those ISIS are killing and whoever, if ever, fights ISIS, we would end up killing numerous civilians to get back control and stop the civilians dying now.....Civilians die either way. That's why after the first go of war you see it through, so you don't have to keep doing it again and again as is happening in Gaza.

The best thing that could happen in Gaza is for Israel to take full control, followed by a world effort to change the education, reindoctrinate the youth.
Until then, Muslim will keep killing each other by the millions. Maybe that is the best solution, contain them as they kill each other....But Israel should have our full support and protection.

[TarJak]

Oh dear... so much bollox, so little time.:har:

[MH]

Seems to me what we have here is essentially a perpetual conflict machine in which the battle lines never seem to change. If Israel goes in full bore and destroys Hamas, something like Hamas or worse will simply take it's place. Hamas cannot destroy Israel not matter what fantasies they write in their charter.
.

Not necessary back in 2002 Israel succeed in defiling terrorists in west bank.
Actually since the " defensive shield" there are no serous problems.

Gaza is different more extreme ...it was always more extreme historically , one of reasons why hamas was elected .
Nothing to do with blockade.

Destroying hamas and passing authority to PA might be possible yet more difficult than in west bank...for both sides.
Gazans surely compere notes about Ramallah where life is not bad..actually the city is booming...not in Gaza style

I think they would be smarter now with hamas gone.
Peaceful diplomatic option is preferable but military might work as well.

[MH]

Oh dear... so much bollox, so little time.:har:


Why don't you add something constructive then?:haha:

[HunterICX]

Why don't you add something constructive then?:haha:

Pointless if you deal with a bunch of broken records.

[Oberon]

I remember this episode, Kelsey Grammer played Captain Morgan Bateson. :yeah:

[Armistead]

I don't think Israel will ever give up control of Gaza, certainly not the west anytime soon or ever regardless. There's not one player in the area they would work with. Even if they ever did find a player willing to work with them, because of the past climate, it would be a slow process of lifting restrictions and giving control. You would have to have some force, UN, Israeli, or other in to ensure the PL don't go back to supporting terrorist that demand Israels destruction.

As usual, in the ME...FUBAR is the word

Religion....bah

[Tribesman]

Why don't you add something constructive then?:haha:


When something is so consistently and steadfastly bollox no amount of constructive work can make any impact.
It is a lot more productive to just laugh instead, there is more chance they will get the message then rather than keep on pointing out why their approach is bollox this time just as it was bollox last time and bollox the time before that.

[Armistead]

Pointless if you deal with a bunch of broken records.

Well, someone has yet to play a classic song...

[Oberon]

Well, someone has yet to play a classic song...

Ok, here we go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4wHJqqud3U

[MH]

I don't think Israel will ever give up control of Gaza, certainly not the west anytime soon or ever regardless. There's not one player in the area they would work with. Even if they ever did find a player willing to work with them, because of the past climate, it would be a slow process of lifting restrictions and giving control. You would have to have some force, UN, Israeli, or other in to ensure the PL don't go back to supporting terrorist that demand Israels destruction.

As usual, in the ME...FUBAR is the word

Religion....bah

Israel already gave up control of Gaza...has no control over it.
Israel never really new what to do with Gaza.
It was under Israeli control then Egyptian then Israeli then hamas.

[Oberon]

has no control over it.


Aside from providing, you know, water, electricity, checking aid supplies, sanitation...those kinda non-essential items. :yep:

[Dread Knot]

The best thing that could happen in Gaza is for Israel to take full control, followed by a world effort to change the education, reindoctrinate the youth.

I sure wouldn't. Already smacks too much of the US government's heavy-handed attempts to assimilate Indians, or the Australian "stolen generations", or communist reindoctrination camps. If any reformation of Islam ever comes, it's going to have to be from within. Youll never be able to impose from outside.

The Muddled East is the land of the damned. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. We took out Saddam Hussein and Moammar Kaddafi --Iraq and Libya are a mess. We didn't take out Bashar Assad--Syria is a mess. At least if you don't intervene you save lives, money and some dignity. I'm come to the cynical viewpoint that you have to let things boil over to the point where the stink becomes great enough that the world as a whole goes in and does something. And that doesn't guarantee what results will be any better. For the time being I would still separate the insanity going on in Syria and Iraq from that going on between Israel and the Palestinians.

Frankly, if it weren't for the oil and Israel I think the endless conflict in the ME would get the same coverage that the internecine wars in Central Africa do that kill thousands each year and where rape is rampant....and no one outside the region gives much heed.

[MH]

Aside from providing, you know, water, electricity, checking aid supplies, sanitation...those kinda non-essential items. :yep:

Well yes... it does .

[Tribesman]

Israel already gave up control of Gaza...has no control over it.

Apart from airspace territorial waters, all imports and exports, movement of people and a self declared free fire buffer zone Israel indeed has no control over Gaza

[MH]

Apart from airspace territorial waters, all imports and exports, movement of people and a self declared free fire buffer zone Israel indeed has no control over Gaza

Yeah ..you better at this than Oberon...Agreed.:haha:

[Tribesman]

Agreed.
So what have the Romans ever done for us?:03:

[Oberon]

Well yes... it does .

So Israel does have control over Gaza, in particular the health and well-being of the Gazan people through its control of their water, sanitation and electricity supplies, not to mention the screening of any aid supplies sent through the blockade.

Israel exerts no political power over Gaza, and perhaps that's part of the problem, it can exert as much military power as it likes, but all it ends up doing, at the end of the day, is shooting itself in the foot and giving Hamas exactly what it wants, dead Palestinian children on western media.
Israels enemies aren't stupid, they know that they cannot fight Israel while it is protected by the west, so they've come to the conclusion that the best way is to let Israel isolate itself before they attack, and all they need to do is sacrifice some pawns in Hamas by providing them with cheap rockets and getting them to annoy Israel enough so that it goes in and stamps all over Gaza, giving a beautiful show for the TV cameras and increasing internal pressure in the west for them to back away from Israel.

Israel is dancing to the tune that Hamas and its masters are playing.

[Oberon]

So what have the Romans ever done for us?:03:

:rotfl2: :har: :up:

[MH]

So what have the Romans ever done for us?:03:

So should Israel revers this situation then.
Let Gaza have it all on its own...including airspace , territorial waters and so on?

[HunterICX]

Ok, here we go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4wHJqqud3U

he..I don't even have to click that to know what that is
http://i.imgur.com/kK045po.png

[MH]

So Israel does have control over Gaza, in particular the health and well-being of the Gazan people through its control of their water, sanitation and electricity supplies, not to mention the screening of any aid supplies sent through the blockade.

Israel exerts no political power over Gaza, and perhaps that's part of the problem, it can exert as much military power as it likes, but all it ends up doing, at the end of the day, is shooting itself in the foot and giving Hamas exactly what it wants, dead Palestinian children on western media.
Israels enemies aren't stupid, they know that they cannot fight Israel while it is protected by the west, so they've come to the conclusion that the best way is to let Israel isolate itself before they attack, and all they need to do is sacrifice some pawns in Hamas by providing them with cheap rockets and getting them to annoy Israel enough so that it goes in and stamps all over Gaza, giving a beautiful show for the TV cameras and increasing internal pressure in the west for them to back away from Israel.

Israel is dancing to the tune that Hamas and its masters are playing.

Well yes Israelis are aware of that...but is it not it making a great part of the world stupid then?
that is the part we cant figure out how come people are this stupid... hence we have this dialogue.
Is not calling for legitimacy of hamas playing into it hands.
... take over some land terrorize its people and the neighbors and politicians will have to deal with you.
It is like making Al Quida part of UN because it is too difficult.

Ohh yes there is this ...let them govern and they will play along nicely...really?

[MH]

he..I don't even have to click that to know what that is
http://i.imgur.com/kK045po.png

Seems you getting exited...posting all the pics.

[Armistead]

Well yes Israelis are aware of that...but is it not it making a great part of the world stupid then?
that is the part we cant figure out how come people are this stupid... hence we have this dialogue.
Is not calling for legitimacy of hamas playing into it hands.
... take over some land terrorize its people and the neighbors and politicians will have to deal with you.
It is like making Al Quida part of UN because it is too difficult.

Ohh yes there is this ...let them govern and they will play along nicely...really?

and seemingly people forget that Hamas cranks it up by lobbing 1000's of rockets into Israeli cities....Damn Israel for having the Iron Dome, it's just not fair......

and as repetitive as it is, as much as it's ignored by most....we seem to think Israel must negotiate with those that seek it's final destruction, if not quickly, inch by inch for generations. It's akin to picking up a rattlesnake and thinking you can somehow friend it and make a bed pet out of it....but that's what people like Tribesman think should happen...

[Oberon]

Well yes Israelis are aware of that...but is it not it making a great part of the world stupid then?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but can Israel afford to be completely isolated from the world?

that is the part we cant figure out how come people are this stupid... hence we have this dialogue.
Is not calling for legitimacy of hamas playing into it hands.
... take over some land terrorize its people and the neighbors and politicians will have to deal with you.
It is like making Al Quida part of UN because it is too difficult.

Ohh yes there is this ...let them govern and they will play along nicely...really?

Well, ultimately that's the decision of Tel Aviv, but pretty soon it's going to either have to commit mass genocide and be hailed as the new Third Reich, or broker some sort of agreement...or be isolated and destroyed by its neighbours. Those are the three options available to Israel really.

Seems you getting exited...posting all the pics.

https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash3/c15.15.186.186/s160x160/68943_457185277693730_440359170_n.jpg

Remove pics from premises.

[Armistead]

Apart from airspace territorial waters, all imports and exports, movement of people and a self declared free fire buffer zone Israel indeed has no control over Gaza

The people there have less control under Hamas, they would live much better under Israeli control....They're pretty hard line on their own people, heck, have a baby out of wedlock, the WOMAN gets 6 years in prison. Gay....you're dead. Try to support a different political agenda...dead. No civil rights at all for the people under Hamas...No economic plan...saw a doc that the masses of people stay doped up on Tramadol from India...Not to mention they have killed many more of their own, well, those PL people that don't follow them. Also lots of reports of them executing anyone know that disagrees with them in high numbers now.....but of course blaming it on Israel.

I think MH hit it, why are so many so stupid to choose propaganda over facts.

[Oberon]

I think MH hit it, why are so many so stupid to choose propaganda over facts.

Propaganda makes the world go round, and giving TV crews free footage of bombed schools makes it go round even faster.
Israel does not know how to play the propaganda game, Israels enemies do, this gives them an advantage that the IDF cannot counter, no matter how deep they go into Gaza.

[MH]

Perhaps, perhaps not, but can Israel afford to be completely isolated from the world?


Well, ultimately that's the decision of Tel Aviv, but pretty soon it's going to either have to commit mass genocide and be hailed as the new Third Reich, or broker some sort of agreement...or be isolated and destroyed by its neighbours. Those are the three options available to Israel really.


Some sort of agreement would be the solution...but with the regular stupidy the dance might start again...and it would be much bloodier...after all world is showing that this strategy works.
So should I say... stop helping hamas.