View Full Version : Israel ..more rockets
Armistead
08-07-14, 11:42 AM
Perhaps, perhaps not, but can Israel afford to be completely isolated from the world?
Well, ultimately that's the decision of Tel Aviv, but pretty soon it's going to either have to commit mass genocide and be hailed as the new Third Reich, or broker some sort of agreement...or be isolated and destroyed by its neighbours. Those are the three options available to Israel really.
I call BS...the 3 choices...Israel doesn't have to commit mass genocide, it simply now has to break Hamas and if the world would follow through and put pressure on Hamas, the people seem ripe for revolution. They're numerous reports now of the PL people turning on Hamas leaders....Israel only need push it along...with Egypts help and the world focusing on the facts.
Most of the isolation talk is just cursory talk....The US will never abandon Israel, even with liberal talk, we'll keep them stockpiled in the best weapons of war. Israel can't be destroyed by its neighbors, unless some WMD to blow the area, not likely since they all seemingly think the area is holy. It would take a world war for Israel to be destroyed and in that people would take sides...they wouldn't be isolated, if it came to that....you would see the west and it's allies lining up with Israel..
You can't and Israel won't give ground with all the radicals taking over the ME and they can't deal negotiate with Hamas as they refuse a workable approach to build trust.
The smart plan for those that believe in freedom and democracy, Hamas has to go, then the UN {choke as I say that} must take over governing...someone does....and I think that probably answers the stupidity question, no one wants the quagmire of piss and BS known as Gaza.....so easier to accept propaganda and blame Israel. If that is the case, in the end, Israel could care less....they can deal with the region if needed and have the money and sources to do so.
I call BS...the 3 choices...Israel doesn't have to commit mass genocide, it simply now has to break Hamas and if the world would follow through and put pressure on Hamas, the people seem ripe for revolution. They're numerous reports now of the PL people turning on Hamas leaders....Israel only need push it along...with Egypts help and the world focusing on the facts.I agree that this time there is a possibility to work out something with the Egyptians.
I also don't think that Israel as it is today would be able to commit genocide without dismantling itself first.
Armistead
08-07-14, 11:59 AM
I agree that this time there is a possibility to work out something with the Egyptians.
I also don't think that Israel as it is today would be able to commit genocide without dismantling itself first.
Well, for the ME, genocide seems to be what's coming among the Muslims themselves....or at least a strung out version of it. Maybe that's what the world sees as the best option, let them consume themselves up.
I don't think anythings going to happen now, we'll be on the same stage again, just a bunch of big heads giving political speeches to act like it matters.
Genocide, no it wouldn't work, Israel wouldn't take that approach, they only need start a revolution. Course, if that happens, you need a world approach to take control of Gaza....So like all things, the buck will get passed again, again....but we all know the big ones coming, maybe our grandkids will have to deal with it........and the Iran crisis looming in the background.....
Pick your side Gentlemen.....indoctrinate your children......cuz eventually that's going to be the only option...I just assume get it over with now.
Some sort of agreement would be the solution...but with the regular stupidy the dance might start again...and it would be much bloodier...after all world is showing that this strategy works.
So should I say... stop helping hamas.
The question is, who is giving them the most support? The TV companies broadcasting the pictures of burning hospitals, or the burning hospitals themselves? You cannot hide things any more, not in this age, the PRC tries its best but stuff still leaks out on a regular basis, and so it would be in Gaza. Even if Israel banished Western media, pictures and footage would still get out, a lot.
I call BS...the 3 choices...Israel doesn't have to commit mass genocide, it simply now has to break Hamas and if the world would follow through and put pressure on Hamas, the people seem ripe for revolution. They're numerous reports now of the PL people turning on Hamas leaders....Israel only need push it along...with Egypts help and the world focusing on the facts.
Pushing them along with Hellfires and GBUs won't work though, this operation has shown that much. Hamas may be bloodied, but it's still in control of Gaza.
]Most of the isolation talk is just cursory talk....The US will never abandon Israel, even with liberal talk, we'll keep them stockpiled in the best weapons of war.
I don't think Israel would be truly isolated, perhaps, but it may find itself in the same sort of position that Apartheid South Africa was.
Israel can't be destroyed by its neighbors, unless some WMD to blow the area, not likely since they all seemingly think the area is holy. It would take a world war for Israel to be destroyed and in that people would take sides...they wouldn't be isolated, if it came to that....you would see the west and it's allies lining up with Israel..
Israel can't be destroyed by its neighbours at the moment, but they're playing the long game, letting Israel weaken itself so that they can move in as required. WMDs are a possibility on both sides, depends how far their enemies want to go, according to Skybird they have no qualms of nuking their way straight to Tel Aviv, west or no.
You can't and Israel won't give ground with all the radicals taking over the ME and they can't deal negotiate with Hamas as they refuse a workable approach to build trust.
Then the only thing that will happen is the continuation of the status quo until such a point as which the status quo will be unworkable.
The smart plan for those that believe in freedom and democracy, Hamas has to go, then the UN {choke as I say that} must take over governing...someone does....and I think that probably answers the stupidity question, no one wants the quagmire of piss and BS known as Gaza.....so easier to accept propaganda and blame Israel. If that is the case, in the end, Israel could care less....they can deal with the region if needed and have the money and sources to do so.
Hamas will not go quietly, look at the Taliban, look at Al'Qaeda, both were supposedly pushed out of Afghanistan, and both are back. It would require more effort and bloodshed than the west is willing to pay for a nation so far away.
I agree that this time there is a possibility to work out something with the Egyptians.
I also don't think that Israel as it is today would be able to commit genocide without dismantling itself first.
Egypt is a possibility but they are going to be focusing internally for the next decade to put down what remains of the MB after the whole elections debacle. So I doubt they'd be able to do much more than what they're doing.
Tribesman
08-07-14, 04:04 PM
So should Israel revers this situation then.
Let Gaza have it all on its own...including airspace , territorial waters and so on?
The point of the post was that you wrote was not true.
It is a claim that is often made, but non the less it is still not true.
So why make the statement?
Are you trying to convince yourself or convince others?
How can you convince yourself if you know it is not true?
How can you convince others if they can easily see it is not true?
Though you can look at the irony of this statement
I think MH hit it, why are so many so stupid to choose propaganda over facts.
And realise that some people do indeed choose propaganda over facts and often don't realise it no mater how often it is pointed out to them.:03:
... take over some land terrorize its people and the neighbors and politicians will have to deal with you.
Ah the might is right angle, can you name two opposing sides in this conflict who both use an identical approach?
What to believe
Some say that HAMAS is the people from Gaza's freedomfighters and people in that area sees HAMAS as freedom fighters against the way Israel is treating them
On the other hand I have read in some news(both Mainstream and outside Mainstream) that the people in Gaza is or should be tired of HAMAS.
If it is the first then it may be right what people say about Israel's way of treating people in Gaza.
If it is the second, well then...
Again..it is so much propaganda what is the truth and what is not.
Markus
Or it could be both at the same time.
People can be funny that way. Or as bossmark would put it, "there's nowt as queer as folk".
Skybird
08-07-14, 05:44 PM
UN council discussing advance of ISIS.
Far more important, dangerous and blood-dripping an issue than just babbling about Palestinian Arabs and their condemnation of Israel once again. ISIS now is turning against its Turkish patrons, having send several hundreds of brainwashed and trained Turks back into Turkey. One cannot help but wondering why. ISIS recently has increased area of operations to Northern Lebanon and Jordan as well. Even Saudi Arabia is extremely nervous about ISIS infiltrating it. In Iraq, the Christian communites are killed down. Even the Kurdish Peshmerga, imo the best trained and equipped force in Iraq currently, seem to be unable to hold their ground against ISIS - what I would not have expected possible.
Not to mention the ISIS massacres against Christians and Jesides.
These dogs are the most dangerous threat in the region currently. I think to establish a standing drone force above their heads and killing as many of them, no matter how, is on order. Also, air forces available in the region, including Western forces there, should be available to be called in as kind of CAS strikes for the Peshmerga and Christian militias.
The US is in very heavy responsibility there since their stupid war from 2003 and their even more stupid total destruction of state and administration structures in Iraq led to a situation where the Sunni over time necessarily had to radicalise. I think Maliki and gang should have been droned already long time ago. ISIS would not be there today without the Americans having done like the have done. They have a moral responsibility there to do hat they can to crack down on ISIS as hard as they can.
Else ISIS has the potential to set the whole ME ablaze.
Tribesman
08-07-14, 05:49 PM
What to believe
People are people, some people think one thing some people think another thing.
Attempting to take a whole swath of people and attribute them all with one view is a very silly approach.
Likewise with the being specific on terms used, don't say Arab if you mean Palestinian, don't say Palestinian if you mean Hamas, don't say Hamas if you mean Fatah and don't say muslim if you mean fundamentalist nuts.
Works the other way too. Jewish, Israeli, settler and Zionist are not interchangeable terms.
When people use the wrong terms to make their points it makes their points seem stupid as they usually don't apply to the people they want to say it about.
Tribesman
08-07-14, 05:58 PM
The US is in very heavy responsibility there since their stupid war from 2003 and their even more stupid total destruction of state and administration structures in Iraq led to a situation where the Sunni over time necessarily had to radicalise.
Hold on, I thought you said all sunnis were radical anyway, and all shia too as they are all muslims and all muslims are radicalised:hmmm:
But then again I suppose they are not really muslims as according to you the only real muslims are those from the 19th century "reformist" movements who I suppose due to local and global events in the 1800s felt they over time necessarily had to radicalise:rotfl2:
The point of the post was that you wrote was not true.
It is a claim that is often made, but non the less it is still not true.
So why make the statement?
Are you trying to convince yourself or convince others?
How can you convince yourself if you know it is not true?
How can you convince others if they can easily see it is not true?
It was true enough in context it was used.
So instead of playing this stupid game put forward how do you think Israel should deal with the issue.
Tribesman
08-08-14, 07:38 AM
It was true enough in context it was used.
It was true in that it is a well worn slogan that isn't true, which is frequently used to respond to points being made despite it not being true.
How's that for context?:03:
So instead of playing this stupid game put forward how do you think Israel should deal with the issue.
Well lets see.
They had their flag waving victory parade yesterday, the talks didn't give them any of the concessions they want last night, rockets flew again this morning.
Can you see which one of those is changed rather simply?:hmmm:
Can you see which one, though providing a propaganda victory to Hamas, also provides a long term propaganda victory to Israel and in fact serves to weaken the power of Hamas?
ok
So instead of asking me this stupid worn out banal question which you think somehow are sneaky cleaver why don't you put forward how Israel should deal with this whole issue.
Did you threaten to overrule him? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwlsd8RAoqI)
Tribesman
08-08-14, 08:14 AM
So instead of asking me this stupid worn out banal question which you think somehow are sneaky cleaver why don't you put forward how Israel should deal with this whole issue.
The whole issue, that's a big one.
Honestly would be a start.
Morally would be a good follow up.
Currently as a matter of policy you are floating around with all the other turds in the sewer and trying to claim that you somehow float higher than the other turds so must be a better sort of excrement.
But did you threaten to overrule him?
Currently as a matter of policy you are floating around with all the other turds in the sewer and trying to claim that you somehow float higher than the other turds so must be a better sort of excrement.
Look at your posts.... it is what you claim.
Question is if this is true...so tell me how Israel should deal with this issue.
Tribesman
08-08-14, 09:01 AM
But did you threaten to overrule him?
But the question has been answered many times on several fronts
It always sticks with MH taking the John Major public approach without realising that he has to take the private approach too:03:
Look at your posts.... it is what you claim.
yep, the moral force has lowered itself to the same level as the excrement.
I am intrigued though, what do you think that Israel should do with Hamas and Palestine (note I did not put the two together, since as you have correctly stated they are not one and the same)?
Von Tonner
08-08-14, 09:14 AM
Well Hamas rockets are once again been fired into Israel with the sole intention of hitting anyone and everyone regardless.
Giving the flurry of diplomatic consultations prior to this latest act of aggression by Hamas where British, French and German diplomats were looking at trying to put a plan together to rehabilitate Gaza under international supervision where there would be some form of demilitarizing Gaza and possibly restoring European monitors at all crossings - I think Hamas has now miscalculated.
One, there is an old saying that you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all the time. With journalists leaving Gaza and no longer under control of Hamas in what they can and cannot say are now showing and reporting on much of what the IDF WAS saying all along about human shields and using schools, hotels, UN facilities in the storage and launching of their rockets. This action accounted for much of the civilian casualties.
Even Archbishop Alexisos, Gaza's Greek Orthodox leader has also stated publicly that Hamas has used church grounds to fire their rockets from.
So that major propaganda tool is no longer available to them any longer. The truth is now out there.
The previous Israeli minister of defence yesterday also put forward a proposal whereby $50 billion be raised to restore Gaza with the proviso that it must be demilitarized and any materials such as cement, steel etc be carefully monitored that Hamas does not use it for its own ends.
In my opinion Hamas with this latest assualt can only isolate itself further than it already is.
But the question has been answered many times on several fronts
It always sticks with MH taking the John Major public approach without realising that he has to take the private approach too:03:
yep, the moral force has lowered itself to the same level as the excrement.
Question is if you are above this or just another one of those jerk off moralists.
Armistead
08-08-14, 09:44 AM
I am intrigued though, what do you think that Israel should do with Hamas and Palestine (note I did not put the two together, since as you have correctly stated they are not one and the same)?
Define Palestine:D
Armistead
08-08-14, 10:08 AM
Question is if you are above this or just another one of those jerk off moralists.
More like Chamberlain, thinking appeasement is the answer. I've got a good friend much the same, all war is bad, always blaming, thinks love and peace can answer everything if only we give it a chance. I really don't mind people like this, they can do a lot of good in the world, but they should never be in positions of political power.
More like Chamberlain, thinking appeasement is the answer. I've got a good friend much the same, all war is bad, always blaming, thinks love and peace can answer everything if only we give it a chance. I really don't mind people like this, they can do a lot of good in the world, but they should never be in positions of political power.
What if they all were in positions of political power?
Be a nice world, wouldn't it?
Armistead
08-08-14, 10:31 AM
What if they all were in positions of political power?
Be a nice world, wouldn't it?
Yep, but because it will never happen, it's not even a realistic thought. Course, that's what makes it ever more dangerous for those nations that have such leaders with sheep that follow. In the end, they always end up throwing up the white flag, bending over and getting a good dose until someone that is realistic comes rescues them.
Von Tonner
08-08-14, 10:42 AM
Hamas' position in Cairo was the war continues after the 72 hour ceasefire but lets still negotiate. Seriously, how dumb is that!
Picture this:
Two guys walking towards each other, each with a dog on a leash. As they begin to pass each other the two dogs get stuck into each other. Instead of pulling the dogs off each other they will rather stand there and over the din of the dogs fighting negotiate under what conditions either one will pull the leash.
Armistead
08-08-14, 11:01 AM
Hamas' position in Cairo was the war continues after the 72 hour ceasefire but lets still negotiate. Seriously, how dumb is that!
Picture this:
Two guys walking towards each other, each with a dog on a leash. As they begin to pass each other the two dogs get stuck into each other. Instead of pulling the dogs off each other they will rather stand there and over the din of the dogs fighting negotiate under what conditions either one will pull the leash.
Yea, like the dumbarse once wouldn't control his big Rott on a leash and it attacked my Tibetan on a leash. He dropped his as I was trying to pull away.
I finally said the heck with it and let it go....Then as my Tibet was killing his dog, he goes nuts, screaming do something...Heard he later posting on his FB how brutal my dog was, had to put his down and all the people felt so sorry for him and something should be done about my dog.
Von Tonner
08-08-14, 11:05 AM
I posted previously on how one determines "civilian casualties" in the Gaza/Israeli conflict.
The chickens for Hamas are coming home to roost. This from the BBC:
The BBC’s head of statistics Anthony Reuben, asks:
If the Israeli attacks have been ‘indiscriminate,’ as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women…
…In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures – their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to to revision.
But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.
Armistead
08-08-14, 11:36 AM
I posted previously on how one determines "civilian casualties" in the Gaza/Israeli conflict.
The chickens for Hamas are coming home to roost. This from the BBC:
The BBC’s head of statistics Anthony Reuben, asks:
If the Israeli attacks have been ‘indiscriminate,’ as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women…
…In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures – their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to to revision.
But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.
And there's numerous reports of Hamas executing a lot of their own people and then saying they were killed by Israel for propaganda. Also direct video footage of Hamas not letting civilians leave areas marked for bombing, even herding them into such areas near their rockets, using children, etc...
Tribesman
08-08-14, 12:24 PM
I am intrigued though, what do you think that Israel should do with Hamas and Palestine (note I did not put the two together, since as you have correctly stated they are not one and the same)?
Impliment a peace deal with negotiations based on the '67 borders as a starting point.
Shocking stuff isn't it, the same idea that everyone apart from extremist supporters of both sides support.:03:
MH
Question is if you are above this or just another one of those jerk off moralists.
Havn't you been spending a lot of time trying to convince people that one bunch are good guys and the others are bad guys?
Does that make you a jerk off moralist?
Von Kerr
Hamas' position in Cairo was the war continues after the 72 hour ceasefire but lets still negotiate. Seriously, how dumb is that!
Isn't it the exactly the same position as has been taken by lots and lots of different groups?:yep:
Isn't it the same position that both your current and former governments had?:yep:
@Armistead
Yep, but because it will never happen, it's not even a realistic thought
How many times have you been pulled up by various people in this topic for your unrealistic thoughts?
Define Palestine:D
The territory defined under the mandate on the 24th July 1922 minus the territorial amendment from 16 September 1922 :D
Impliment a peace deal with negotiations based on the '67 borders as a starting point.
Shocking stuff isn't it, the same idea that everyone apart from extremist supporters of both sides support.:03:
MH
Havn't you been spending a lot of time trying to convince people that one bunch are good guys and the others are bad guys?
Does that make you a jerk off moralist?
Great plan...yes I support it too .wink wink
What bunch do you refer to?
Impliment a peace deal with negotiations based on the '67 borders as a starting point.
Shocking stuff isn't it, the same idea that everyone apart from extremist supporters of both sides support.:03:
And how would you deal with the aforementioned extremist supporters from both sides? Plus who would control Jerusalem?
It's a nice idea, and like you say, a popular one but enforcing it is the tricky situation. :hmmm: I think any Israeli government who tried would be strung up by the zionest hard-liners.
I've always looked at the borders drawn up in the original 1948 agreement and found them a little...odd. I mean, it's like dropped some paint in water or something, rather than the straight-forward 38th parallel division of Korea between North and South, or even the division of Ireland, but in the '48 agreement and even in the '67 one, it's a very messy border arrangement. :hmmm:
And how would you deal with the aforementioned extremist supporters from both sides? Plus who would control Jerusalem?
In overall ME atmosphere where Israeli government has trouble dealing with Gaza and without solving security issues in west bank the solution is hard to sell even to moderate people....everything is relative lol
An act of good will based on faith which supposedly is to end all the conflict that is not enough and will not work.
The so called settlers could be dealt with , not all of them are so extremist as you think...most of them are not.
In overall ME atmosphere where Israeli government has trouble dealing with Gaza and without solving security issues in west bank the solution is hard to sell even to moderate people....everything is relative lol
An act of good will based on faith which supposedly is to end all the conflict that is not enough and will not work.
The so called settlers could be dealt with , not all of them are so extremist as you think...most of them are not.
Oh it's not the settlers so much I'm thinking of but political figures, I mean I don't think it'd fly with the more hardline members of Likud, would it? Although they did concede the Sinai in the seventies, but I don't see the current Likud party going for a '67 border agreement, Kadima maybe, but not Likud. Maybe if Yesh Atid got involved, could sway the numbers...
Armistead
08-08-14, 02:35 PM
Oh it's not the settlers so much I'm thinking of but political figures, I mean I don't think it'd fly with the more hardline members of Likud, would it? Although they did concede the Sinai in the seventies, but I don't see the current Likud party going for a '67 border agreement, Kadima maybe, but not Likud. Maybe if Yesh Atid got involved, could sway the numbers...
How can Israel ever go back to the 67 borders? Sure you know the map, but look again at the mere distance they're left with. Not to mention they would give up the plateau and heights, a needed natural barrier to protect them. Without such it would be about impossible to protect their cities. Think of rockets raining down from the heights just miles from the cities.
Israel will never go to 67 borders. It would be suicide.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/Armistead1424085/borders_zpsbe3a3342.gif
Skybird
08-08-14, 02:39 PM
History has proven for the Israelis that any deals land-for-peace do not work. Pieces of land were repeatedly given back - and immediately the Arabs started firing rockets from it at Israel.
One has to finally - finally! - understand in the naive, reality-denying West that the Palestinian Arabs do not want just part of the land. They want it all.
There will never be a peaceful coexistence. Sooner or later the one or the other side will be wiped out - or maybe both. But coexistence - no chance.
The biggest threat to Israel is the Arabs already living inside Israel, legally. The past years have shown how little crowds are needed to riot a state order into desintegration. The danger to the inner integrity of the state in Israel I currently would rate as very high. With every Arab moving to Israel, it only becomes bigger a threat.
Talking about from bad to worse.
Tribesman
08-08-14, 02:50 PM
Great plan...yes I support it too .wink wink
That's OK, I know you are one of the extremist nationalist nuts.
Or perhaps you just do your best to do a very good impression of one.
And how would you deal with the aforementioned extremist supporters from both sides?
Deal with them for what they are.
It's a nice idea, and like you say, a popular one but enforcing it is the tricky situation
Its been a tricky situation all along, pushing through the initial resolution is the stupidest thing Truman ever did, he was fully aware of what the result would be.
think any Israeli government who tried would be strung up by the zionest hard-liners.
Do you think it is acceptable for a democratic government to be held hostage by a few domestic nuts?
If they can't deal with the domestic nuts then they have no chance of dealing with the nuts on the other side.
I've always looked at the borders drawn up in the original 1948 agreement and found them a little...odd.
That is because it was very odd. Unworkable would be the appropriate term.
or even the division of Ireland
Well 5 years in the drawing up then the rejection because 3 and a half counties is not economicly viable leading to another 80 years of silliness
it's a very messy border arrangement.
That's what happens when you draw a boundary separating people by some arbitrary measure when people on the whole don't separate themselves like that in their lives
Remove kebab from premises
http://clomedia.com/ext/resources/images/s/-1SsaDsAsNJ4/TjrDOHbf7SI/AAAAAAAAVhA/7mpdQ70IFN4/s288/broken-2520record.jpg?1395077692
Deal with them for what they are.
Its been a tricky situation all along, pushing through the initial resolution is the stupidest thing Truman ever did, he was fully aware of what the result would be.
Do you think it is acceptable for a democratic government to be held hostage by a few domestic nuts?
If they can't deal with the domestic nuts then they have no chance of dealing with the nuts on the other side.
That is because it was very odd. Unworkable would be the appropriate term.
Well 5 years in the drawing up then the rejection because 3 and a half counties is not economicly viable leading to another 80 years of silliness
That's what happens when you draw a boundary separating people by some arbitrary measure when people on the whole don't separate themselves like that in their lives
I agree, I mean the border between the DPRK and ROK isn't exactly sunset boulevard but it has worked a damn sight better than the division between Israel and Palestine. Certainly there's been less casualties in it since its creation, but then religion doesn't come into play in Korea, just ideology...which some might say is a religion of its own. :nope::nope:
Of course, the problem still lies in dealing with the crazies without killing civilians, which is problematic since the crazies tend to hide behind civilians, no matter what religion they are.
I think Iron Dome has given Israel a bit of breathing space, but it's not going to last forever and some sort of agreement will need to be reached or an attempt made to unlink Hamas from the Palestinian people some how. Of course, it's quite how this sort of thing is done is the key, the attempts at 'hearts and minds' in Afghanistan and Iraq have lead to the implementation of two stable and popular governments after all... :/\\!!
Armistead
08-08-14, 03:06 PM
See the ISIS leader had made a video to the US telling to to prepare for the day we fight the sons of Islam. Meanwhile, over 40,000 have fled to the mountains with no subsistence to survive and 100's of women being taken into slavery and raped.....
Yes, these are people we can deal with.....just like Hamas...They want war, I say destroy them all now, what's Obama do, shoots at a few artillery pieces and calls it military action...
Tribesman
08-08-14, 03:06 PM
How can Israel ever go back to the 67 borders? Sure you know the map, but look again at the mere distance they're left with. Not to mention they would give up the plateau and heights, a needed natural barrier to protect them. Without such it would be about impossible to protect their cities. Think of rockets raining down from the heights just miles from the cities.
Overlay your map with just the current ranges from gaza and it look like you have no point.
Add in the ranges from the other occupied territories and you really have no point.
add in the ranges of the known weaponry from neighbouring states which are still at war with Israel and your point has reached the wonderful territory of complete bollox.
Two common arguments that people like you use always make me laugh.
Israel needs this space to keep its population away from the threat... yet they quickly move their population into these areas.
Israels 67 borders are undefendable...yet they defended them and won that conflict.
History has proven for the Israelis that any deals land-for-peace do not work. Pieces of land were repeatedly given back - and immediately the Arabs started firing rockets from it at Israel.
They did one deal. It worked:doh:
Tribesman
08-08-14, 03:13 PM
I think Iron Dome has given Israel a bit of breathing space, but it's not going to last forever and some sort of agreement will need to be reached or an attempt made to unlink Hamas from the Palestinian people some how. Of course, it's quite how this sort of thing is done is the key, the attempts at 'hearts and minds' in Afghanistan and Iraq have lead to the implementation of two stable and popular governments after all... :/\\!!
Yep they got a bit of breathing space, instead of using it to move forward they chose to carry on with the same pattern of backwards nonsense as before.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, the first was simply no plan at all and the second was implemented by breaking every single condition of the plan they had drawn up.
The only lesson they serve is in how not to do things.
So basically, what this thread boils down to is a rough split between those who want to commit mass-genocide on a scale that would make the most die-hand Muslim fanatic blush, and those who don't.
http://www.tickld.com/cdn_image_postimage/3ae24691c60e7f496fd95342ca8a943b.jpg
Israels 67 borders are undefendable...yet they defended them and won that conflict.
In six days nonetheless. :yep:
That's OK, I know you are one of the extremist nationalist nuts.
Or perhaps you just do your best to do a very good impression of one.
:roll:
Oh it's not the settlers so much I'm thinking of but political figures, I mean I don't think it'd fly with the more hardline members of Likud, would it? Although they did concede the Sinai in the seventies, but I don't see the current Likud party going for a '67 border agreement, Kadima maybe, but not Likud. Maybe if Yesh Atid got involved, could sway the numbers... The...Ariel Sharon succeeded with withdrawal from Gaza and removing settlements against all the opposition.
Sad thing the pessimists had been right about what would come next....
Theoretically it would be possible to create collation , unity government that would follow through sensible agreement but I don't think it is possible with this Gaza mess over our heads.
Passing Gaza to PA followed by time of quiet could change this.
Israels 67 borders are undefendable...yet they defended them and won that conflict.
Well ... what sort of conflict was it?
You contradict yourself , Israel can take over Gaza.
As for now potential Jordanian invasion is not what is bothering Israelis.
add in the ranges of the known weaponry from neighbouring states which are still at war with Israel and your point has reached the wonderful territory of complete bollox Look at the map again and tell me what weaponry can be used that Iron Dome cant deal with.
Look at the spread , crossing directions..towns..airports...and yes , there are enough problems as it is.
Believe me it is nice view from those hills.
What about the costs?
Could you do us a favour and remove that image, does the eyes in. :nope:
Armistead
08-08-14, 04:23 PM
So basically, what this thread boils down to is a rough split between those who want to commit mass-genocide on a scale that would make the most die-hand Muslim fanatic blush, and those who don't.
http://www.tickld.com/cdn_image_postimage/3ae24691c60e7f496fd95342ca8a943b.jpg
Rather silly statement. ISIS, Hamas and other such groups will be the ones to commit genocide. ISIS is getting a pretty good start at it. Then these groups have the stated goal of committing genocide, creating a large Islamic state in the ME, then continue to warpath of Islamic revolution.
With your reasoning we should've left Germany and Japan alone in WW2...You make no sense at all. The fact is you and all the peace activist would probably act when it got so bad you had no choice or hide in the basement and pray someone will. Doesn't matter if millions in the world suffer, just when it concerns you. But that's the problem, if you don't stop it, it will soon come for you, so realist believe in stopping it sooner than later.
Dread Knot
08-08-14, 04:48 PM
So basically, what this thread boils down to is a rough split between those who want to commit mass-genocide on a scale that would make the most die-hand Muslim fanatic blush, and those who don't.
It is interesting that most American liberals who fault Israel seem to believe either (A) that Hamas has a set of political objectives that actually fall well short of the total annihilation of Israel, or else (B) that it is too early in the hoped-for journey toward peace to start worrying about who is in the driver's seat of the Palestinian cause.
On the other hand, most American conservatives who praise Israel doubt that Hamas has any goals short of genocide and are therefore unconcerned with Israel's failure to make concessions. Instead, one often hears them argue that Israel's reaction to Hamas is no different than the U.S. reaction to 9/11.
Rather silly statement. ISIS, Hamas and other such groups will be the ones to commit genocide. ISIS is getting a pretty good start at it. Then these groups have the stated goal of committing genocide, creating a large Islamic state in the ME, then continue to warpath of Islamic revolution.
With your reasoning we should've left Germany and Japan alone in WW2...You make no sense at all. The fact is you and all the peace activist would probably act when it got so bad you had no choice or hide in the basement and pray someone will. Doesn't matter if millions in the world suffer, just when it concerns you. But that's the problem, if you don't stop it, it will soon come for you, so realist believe in stopping it sooner than later.
So basically because they want to commit genocide then we should commit genocide against them first. :yep:
Tribesman
08-08-14, 05:54 PM
Well ... what sort of conflict was it?
One where people kill each other.
You contradict yourself , Israel can take over Gaza.
No contradiction, if you occupy territory through military force you cannot annex it and you cannot move your population into it.
If you occupy it you are obliged to follow the conditions set out governing military occupation.
These are things Israel agreed to but chooses to ignore.
As for now potential Jordanian invasion is not what is bothering Israelis. Was there a potential Jordanian invasion?
Look at the map again and tell me what weaponry can be used that Iron Dome cant deal with.
Some of the same stuff that is coming out of gaza:yep:
The same stuff that could currently come out of the west bank or Lebanon or Syria....
So your point is?
What about the costs? What about the ongoing costs?
@Oberon
So basically, what this thread boils down to is a rough split between those who want to commit mass-genocide on a scale that would make the most die-hand Muslim fanatic blush, and those who don't.
That seems to sum it up.
@Dread
one often hears them argue that Israel's reaction to Hamas is no different than the U.S. reaction to 9/11. that's good, as most of Americas reactions to 9/11 have been dumb, expensive, counterproductive and very damaging to America and its allies.
So are you saying most American conservatives are really really stupid?
Skybird
08-08-14, 06:01 PM
Pacifists. Hm.
In German:
http://boess.welt.de/2014/08/01/wann-stoppt-margot-kaessmann-endlich-isis/
Pacifists are people who let evil and indescribable atrocities happen, because it makes them feel morally superior not to fight thermselves, not even in defence of those needing help. It is a cowardly attitude that turns a cold shoulder on the victims that get mowed down or raped or tortured in scores, because bringing death to those doing these atrocities for a pacifist is the bigger moral evil. In the end, he also means to say that the attacker and the victim are not different, but that the attacker is of the same value like his victim.
Be careful, Oberon. By endlessly relativising the violence of aggression and intended barbarism, and the violence of self-defence or the defence of others, you easily end up assisting the first by denying the difference between both. Which then makes you a part of the aggression/crime, sharing the agressor's responsibility.
Dread Knot
08-08-14, 06:02 PM
@Dread
that's good, as most of Americas reactions to 9/11 have been dumb, expensive, counterproductive and very damaging to America and its allies.
So are you saying most American conservatives are really really stupid?
http://i.imgur.com/gQyPmkB.gif
Pacifists are people who let evil and indescribable atrocities happen, because it makes them feel morally superior not to fight thermselves, not even in defence of those needing help. It is a cowardly attitude that turns a cold shoulder on the victims that get mowed down or raped or tortured in scores, because bringing death to those doing these atrocities for a pacifist is the bigger moral evil. In the end, he also means to say that the attacker and the victim are not different, but that the attacker is of the same value like his victim.
Was thinking something about those lines.
Armistead
08-08-14, 06:07 PM
So basically because they want to commit genocide then we should commit genocide against them first. :yep:
You can't really be asking that...
If they're in the process of genocide, you stop it. Did we commit genocide in Germany or Japan.....NO, we fought nations that started wars until they surrendered.
If the enemy would rather die, that's his choice for starting a war.
More sickening, watched the liberals fav news for an hour just to see that opinion....proclaiming Obama is finally doing something to stop the genocide. They proclaim Obama was right to wait, that force has to be the last measure. That's the problem with that report and you, you sit back until a genocide is in the process.
Genocide ... it is getting even more weird.
There is genocide up the north then....no chemicals involved thx god.
[Some of the same stuff that is coming out of gaza:yep:
The same stuff that could currently come out of the west bank or Lebanon or Syria....
So your point is?
Hell ... I don't know anymore...
Tribesman
08-08-14, 06:18 PM
Genocide ... it is getting even more weird.
.
Not really, genocide is a key element of skybirds strange utopian dream, basicly kill everyone who doesn't share his vision of a future made of Austrian flavoured isolated feudalism so that it can exist.
So you can see why he has no qualms supporting mass murder.
Fundamentalist extremists, they are all the same even if they claim they are on opposite sides.
Confusing that middle east isn't it, no easy answers.
Well there is plenty of easy answers, its just that they don't stand up to scrutiny very well.
Confusing that middle east isn't it, no easy answers.
Well there is plenty of easy answers, its just that they don't stand up to scrutiny very well.[/QUOTE]
Define scrutiny then....
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlTwoc54psr58nbumQwxf-teZjZTc5gPLvZfRZlfWEXzzywTcf (http://www.google.co.il/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=EJFOBlTdaJVj3M&tbnid=98GKUIWMDwj2FM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FPerfectTimin g%2Fcomments%2F1b40bw%2Fa_pilot_in_an_raf_harrier_ gr9a_ejects_just_in%2F&ei=_l7lU7K6JvOz0QXQ_IGADQ&bvm=bv.72676100,d.d2k&psig=AFQjCNEa04CZxHaSanWJjxqpLre-gA5DJw&ust=1407627360067201)
Tribesman
08-08-14, 06:43 PM
Define scrutiny then....
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlTwoc54psr58nbumQwxf-teZjZTc5gPLvZfRZlfWEXzzywTcf (http://www.google.co.il/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=EJFOBlTdaJVj3M&tbnid=98GKUIWMDwj2FM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FPerfectTimin g%2Fcomments%2F1b40bw%2Fa_pilot_in_an_raf_harrier_ gr9a_ejects_just_in%2F&ei=_l7lU7K6JvOz0QXQ_IGADQ&bvm=bv.72676100,d.d2k&psig=AFQjCNEa04CZxHaSanWJjxqpLre-gA5DJw&ust=1407627360067201)
It is what Mr Christian led on the Bounty:yep:
It is what Mr Christian led on the Bounty:yep:
Ok have beer then , was nice talking to you....you are difficult guy.:haha:
Im out.
http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Guinness-Delivery_Wallpaper_ebgrf.jpg
You can't really be asking that...
If they're in the process of genocide, you stop it.
So you wait until the genocide commences, and then stop it?
Did we commit genocide in Germany or Japan.....NO, we fought nations that started wars until they surrendered.
Fair point, but only when they crossed certain lines.
If the enemy would rather die, that's his choice for starting a war.
So the aggressor is automatically the party in the wrong?
]More sickening, watched the liberals fav news for an hour just to see that opinion....proclaiming Obama is finally doing something to stop the genocide. They proclaim Obama was right to wait, that force has to be the last measure. That's the problem with that report and you, you sit back until a genocide is in the process.
But didn't you just say "If they're in the process of genocide, you stop it." :hmmm:
But yes, I am a liberal, I am left wing and I am European, I know that this particular trifecta of evil (axis of evil perhaps? :haha:) makes me an unpopular minority on Subsims General Topics (heck, on Subsim full stop I'd wager) and perhaps I should have left long ago, but I'd rather be a dove than a hawk anyday because when you've fired a bullet out of a gun, when you've shot that missile, you cannot take it back, you cannot bring a person back from the dead, so if that means aim twice and fire once, then so be it. I'd rather do that then go off half-cocked like so many hot-headed people around here. :nope:
You know what, I think it's probably best we follow MH's example and just let this thread die now, nothing more good is going to come from it. We've all made our positions abundantly clear and anything else is just going to be like trench charges in the First World War, we're all entrenched, no-one is going to move us, so let's just set here and eat rats. :yep:
https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbp67w5ElZ1qad4xqo4_250.gif
Dread Knot
08-08-14, 08:53 PM
.you cannot take it back, you cannot bring a person back from the dead, so if that means aim twice and fire once, then so be it. I'd rather do that then go off half-cocked like so many hot-headed people around here. :nope:
Something tells me we're never gonna unlease Oberon's inner American.
Aim once. Fire twice. :O: Kinda.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/gnz.gif
Armistead
08-08-14, 09:07 PM
So you wait until the genocide commences, and then stop it?
Fair point, but only when they crossed certain lines.
So the aggressor is automatically the party in the wrong?
But didn't you just say "If they're in the process of genocide, you stop it." :hmmm:
But yes, I am a liberal, I am left wing and I am European, I know that this particular trifecta of evil (axis of evil perhaps? :haha:) makes me an unpopular minority on Subsims General Topics (heck, on Subsim full stop I'd wager) and perhaps I should have left long ago, but I'd rather be a dove than a hawk anyday because when you've fired a bullet out of a gun, when you've shot that missile, you cannot take it back, you cannot bring a person back from the dead, so if that means aim twice and fire once, then so be it. I'd rather do that then go off half-cocked like so many hot-headed people around here. :nope:
Well, I'm fairly liberal myself, at least socially. I was against the Iraq war from the start, admitting Hussein met the standard for war per the Geneva Convention. However,I try to look at facts and be a realist.
I have a good friend that is probably more liberal than you about war. We can argue, but we never hate. You're overall one on my favorites here in GT, along with several other liberal here. I have no problem with the think twice first approach, but then you have to look at the facts.
In the end, with all the crisis going on, they're gonna be a lot of dead people, they're gonna be winners and losers, millions could die. I don't want to be one of them. I can reasonably argue that ISIS, Hamas and groups like them are in the wrong. I know many follow them at no fault of their own, but they do. In the end, if one side has to lose, then it must be them
Armistead
08-08-14, 09:11 PM
Something tells me we're never gonna unlease Oberon's inner American.
Aim once. Fire twice. :O: Kinda.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/gnz.gif
Yea, it's why everyone wants us to come save them.
Yea, it's why everyone wants us to come save them.
I don't.:O:
Well, I'm fairly liberal myself, at least socially. I was against the Iraq war from the start, admitting Hussein met the standard for war per the Geneva Convention. However,I try to look at facts and be a realist.
I have a good friend that is probably more liberal than you about war. We can argue, but we never hate. You're overall one on my favorites here in GT, along with several other liberal here. I have no problem with the think twice first approach, but then you have to look at the facts.
In the end, with all the crisis going on, they're gonna be a lot of dead people, they're gonna be winners and losers, millions could die. I don't want to be one of them. I can reasonably argue that ISIS, Hamas and groups like them are in the wrong. I know many follow them at no fault of their own, but they do. In the end, if one side has to lose, then it must be them
I can understand that, and I can't disagree and if it came down to Hamas or ISIS (or IS as they call themselves now...must be a budget cut or something) directly trying to kill the people I loved then I would not think twice about using whatever magnitude of firepower was necessary to remove the threat. Heck, if the immediate aftermath of 7/7 I felt that emotion, that anger that they would try, and just avoid managing to, kill my family.
But I am not a man who reaches for war as the first option, if a war can be avoided without significant consequences for either side then I would be happy for such a thing to take place. I can even understand why Chamberlain did as he did, because he wanted so badly to believe that war could be avoided, that the massacre of WWI that still haunted Western Europe could be averted. Sometimes it can, we managed over forty years of not managing to nuke each other back into the stone age despite the predictions of many on both sides of the Iron Curtain..but sometimes it cannot, and I understand and accept this.
I may be Liberal but I still strongly support the continued maintenance of Britains SLBM ability, and a strong armed forces, even though Europe has seen its longest period of peace since the fall of the Roman Empire. There is always a price for peace, and I respect those who pay it, but one of my big fears about this modern age of the 'war on terror' is that we will become the things that we once fought a world war to defeat, that we will become a society so prejudiced against a group of people for their religion that we will be willing to deal with them in any manner we see fit so long as they are removed. I see some people who say such things that, if one were to simply replace the word 'Muslim' with 'Jew' it would not seem out of place coming from the mouth of an SS Sturmbannführer, the Nazis were, to paraphrase the title of an excellent TV series 'a warning from history', and some days I do worry that we have not heeded that warning.
Yea, it's why everyone wants us to come save them.
Well, you guys usually have more gear and ammo than we do, because of the aim once, shoot twice, so it's handy to have that gear and modify it to aim twice and shoot once.
The results
http://www.network54.com/Realm/M4A3E8/Sherman_Firefly.jpg
Are often
http://www.spitcrazy.com/P-51_Mustang.jpg
Very impressive :up:
Armistead
08-08-14, 10:01 PM
Well, if there's gonna be a ruckus somewhere, America usually wants to get in it. I think it's wanting to keep the military sharpe for the next big one that's coming, keep the military war machine in profit, so they can make better stuff..
For ISIS this is turning into a blood lust likened to the religious genocides of the past, killing like sharks in blood. Given the chance, Hamas would do the same.
Just remember we had the ISIS leader in custody and let him go, his remark then.."we'll see you in New York."
Betonov
08-09-14, 01:05 AM
Yea, it's why everyone wants us to come save them.
We didn't in 1991.
You actually sided with Belgrade :O:
We didn't in 1991.
You actually sided with Belgrade :O:
Well played.
Betonov
08-09-14, 03:14 AM
Well played.
You see, Washington sided with Yugoslav Belgrade, but Serb Belgrade sided with Ljubljana and later Washington sided against Serb Belgrade and Ljubljana sided with Washington all the while there was no more Yugoslav Belgrade.
Welcome to the Balkans :)
You see, Washington sided with Yugoslav Belgrade, but Serb Belgrade sided with Ljubljana and later Washington sided against Serb Belgrade and Ljubljana sided with Washington all the while there was no more Yugoslav Belgrade.
Welcome to the Balkans :)
http://i.imgur.com/l7Bgjoa.jpg
Betonov
08-09-14, 06:10 AM
Love how they gave half of Dolenjska to Croatia and took the entire Istra from them :haha:
Von Tonner
08-09-14, 06:30 AM
Von Kerr
Isn't it the exactly the same position as has been taken by lots and lots of different groups?:yep:
Isn't it the same position that both your current and former governments had?:yep:
No Tribesman it is not! Again you show a distinct lack of knowledge on a subject you for whatever reason choose to participate in.
The previous South African government and the African National Congress and other political groups NEVER EVER negotiated with bullets, bombs, rockets etc going off by any of the negotiating parties. There were other groups in the country who were against negotiations and they tried through acts of violence to derail the negotiations. And they succeeded to an extent. Hence we had CODESA 1 and CODESA 2 (Convention for a Democratic SA). But AT NO TIME were the major parties to negotiations involved in hostilities against each other while negotiating. There were two massacres through demonstrations that did occur - and when this happened the negotiations were stopped.
The South African Defence Force and the police maintained stability in the country together with MK (the military wing of the ANC) ceasing its hostilities.
If Israel and Hamas WANT to negotiate both likewise must ensure that they will contain the hotheads on both sides. With Hamas they need to stop the Islamic Jihad in Gaza from launching rockets if Hamas is sincere in its efforts of peace through negotiations.
But to come back to my initial point. Negotiations with a partner that is busy planning and actively trying to kill you while talking to you is absurd.
And by the way, given your insistence in this thread that the correct names should be given to groups when talking about them it is Von Tonner - and not Von Kerr!!:haha:
Tribesman
08-09-14, 08:31 AM
No Tribesman it is not! Again you show a distinct lack of knowledge on a subject you for whatever reason choose to participate in.
Really?:har:
The previous South African government and the African National Congress and other political groups NEVER EVER negotiated with bullets, bombs, rockets etc going off by any of the negotiating parties. Could you name the parties involved in the big barn negotiations?
What elements of the problem did the big barn negotiations aim to end?
Hence we had CODESA 1 and CODESA 2 (Convention for a Democratic SA). But AT NO TIME were the major parties to negotiations involved in hostilities against each other while negotiating. Errrrr...CODESA came after the big barn negotiations didn't it.
You make it too easy Von Kerr.:rotfl2:
Von Tonner
08-09-14, 09:48 AM
Really?:har:
Could you name the parties involved in the big barn negotiations?
What elements of the problem did the big barn negotiations aim to end?
Errrrr...CODESA came after the big barn negotiations didn't it.
You make it too easy Von Kerr.:rotfl2:
Big Barn negotiations????? I have a masters in politics and have never heard of the so called "big barn negotiations"
Please, Tribesman, given your guru on the mount, elucidate on the "big barn negotiations".
AND given that I have corrected you on my handle that it is 'Von Tonner' and NOT 'Von Kerr' I am surprised that the moderators on this thread allow you you to participate . You have absolutely no respect for fellow participants to this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groote_Schuur
The building was the site for the signing of the historic "Groote Schuur Minute" between Nelson Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela) of the African National Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress) and F.W. De Klerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.W._De_Klerk), the then President of South Africa, on 4 May 1990. The document was a commitment between the two parties towards the resolution of the existing climate of violence and intimidation as well as a commitment to stability and to a peaceful process of negotiations. A working party was established to investigate the granting of temporary immunity to ANC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress) cadres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_revolutionaries), to advise on how to deal with the release of political prisoners and to make recommendations on the definition of political offences.
Tribesman
08-09-14, 11:11 AM
Big Barn negotiations?????
Maybe try it local:03:
I have a masters in politics and have never heard of the so called "big barn negotiations"
As for the value of your masters, that is obviously debateable since you claimed the negotiations never took place.
Not only do you claim they never took place you insist on it being true after you should be questioning your own claim
Historical documents signed by both parties prove your claim to be false and your masters to be not a lot of use.
If you want you can go further and go to the next document, the Pretoria one. That also proves your claim false.
For even more fun you can go earlier and deal with the years of negotiations which led to the big barn one. They also prove your claim false.
If you want to make claims man perhaps you should check them first by making schuurman.
Armistead
08-09-14, 11:24 AM
You see, Washington sided with Yugoslav Belgrade, but Serb Belgrade sided with Ljubljana and later Washington sided against Serb Belgrade and Ljubljana sided with Washington all the while there was no more Yugoslav Belgrade.
Welcome to the Balkans :)
Imagine Sarah Palin as president trying to wrap her head around that...
I can see her asking for permission if she can push the button now...
"Come Lord Jesus"
Betonov
08-09-14, 11:27 AM
Imagine Sarah Palin as president trying to wrap her head around that...
I can see her asking for permission if she can push the button now...
"Come Lord Jesus"
And a bomb wipes out Bratislava :D
vanjast
08-09-14, 11:42 AM
Big Barn negotiations????? I have a masters in politics and have never heard of the so called "big barn negotiations"
Please, Tribesman, given your guru on the mount, elucidate on the "big barn negotiations".
AND given that I have corrected you on my handle that it is 'Von Tonner' and NOT 'Von Kerr' I am surprised that the moderators on this thread allow you you to participate . You have absolutely no respect for fellow participants to this thread.
Von Tonner.. don't waste your time with our dear Tribesman - He's an excellent 'fisherman', and a wiki+google expert :03:
I wonder if he realises that even PW Botha started negotiations with Mandela, with the requirement that the cANCer cease hostilities.. this came to no conclusion !!
Armistead
08-09-14, 06:15 PM
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/Armistead1424088/download11_zps44cde75e.jpg
vanjast
08-09-14, 11:42 PM
What did Tribesman do, to earn himself a Red card ? :o
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 03:38 AM
What did Tribesman do, to earn himself a Red card ? :o
The answer will be revealed to you if you do research on many of his debating 'methods'.
Schroeder
08-10-14, 04:42 AM
What did Tribesman do, to earn himself a Red card ? :o
Left click on the red card. You'll get a window with a brief explanation.
Von Tonner
08-10-14, 05:32 AM
Von Tonner.. don't waste your time with our dear Tribesman - He's an excellent 'fisherman', and a wiki+google expert :03:
I wonder if he realises that even PW Botha started negotiations with Mandela, with the requirement that the cANCer cease hostilities.. this came to no conclusion !!
Quite correct Vanjast...it was largely due to Mandela's refusal to forgo violence that kept him in jail longer than necessary.
I see you are in Melkbosstrand. I am in Hermanus. At least we both live in a province of SA that is not going down the toilet:D
vanjast
08-10-14, 07:41 AM
The answer will be revealed to you if you do research on many of his debating 'methods'.
I have no problem with his methods... a good challenge, and test of verbal/written skills it is.. :arrgh!:
vanjast
08-10-14, 08:12 AM
Quite correct Vanjast...it was largely due to Mandela's refusal to forgo violence that kept him in jail longer than necessary.
Makes you think... :har:
I see you are in Melkbosstrand. I am in Hermanus. At least we both live in a province of SA that is not going down the toilet:D
I can see the big toilet approaching ... I'm outa here :03:
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 10:29 AM
I have no problem with his methods...
Debating is one thing.
Putting down people is another.
Hence why i said 'methods'
You may not, others have had issues repeatedly.
I'll leave it at that.
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/222/f/b/le_bon__la_brute_et_le_truand3_by_wwwcine-d7ujvoo.gif
Armistead
08-10-14, 07:02 PM
subliminal or sarcastic.
Well, I don't mind Tribe or his methods....hate anyone getting thrown in the brig....Hopefully his stay will be cut short.....
Hope the yellow gorilla goes easy on him:D
subliminal or sarcastic.
I was hoping to achieve both.
Armistead
08-12-14, 12:16 AM
So what are Hamas leaders really saying. Course, the lies are so obvious, I won't point them out....and this was in Morocco
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f7_1407794175
Skybird
08-12-14, 06:44 PM
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/05/the-medias-role-in-hamas-war-strategy/
Skybird's link to this article about the medias roll in the war between HAMAS and Israel is nothing new. Most of our newspaper here in Danmark and Sweden are just that, very pro-HAMAS
There are however some Danish mainstreams media and some outside mainstream who have seen what HAMAS really is
When reading some of these news I been wondering
Are HAMAS about to loose this war total ?
More and more journalist have revealed how HAMAS wage war
I have also in some newspaper read about the ordinary citizens in Gaza is getting more and more tired of HAMAS...so is HAMAS about to loose this war?
Markus
Tribesman
08-18-14, 02:35 PM
I wonder if he realises that even PW Botha started negotiations with Mandela, with the requirement that the cANCer cease hostilities.. this came to no conclusion !!
Why thank you for the information vanjast, as I havn't got a masters in politics and am ignorant these things which are common knowledge are quite outside my scope.
Thank you for mentioning these well known things as some people don't know about them:03:
Quite correct Vanjast...it was largely due to Mandela's refusal to forgo violence that kept him in jail longer than necessary.
Errrr....I hate to point out the obvious, but you spent some time argueing that these events never occurred.
I seem to recall that you even went CAPS LOCK on it and said they NEVER EVER happened:hmmm:
vanjast
08-18-14, 02:49 PM
Why thank you for the information vanjast, as I havn't got a masters in politics and am ignorant these things which are common knowledge are quite outside my scope.
Thank you for mentioning these well known things as some people don't know about them:03:
Always a pleasure.. I'm also open to learning new things, and try not to be too quick to judge, although sometimes I fail dismally :D
Good to have you back again... :arrgh!:
Armistead
08-18-14, 02:55 PM
Welcome back Tribesman..I actually missed you:oops:
Tribesman
08-18-14, 02:59 PM
Good to have you back again... :arrgh!:
Well thank you very much, I really enjoyed my recent stay in Yorkshire.
Von Tonner
08-22-14, 05:32 AM
So they proudly admit to capturing and killing those three youths. There will a few high ranking ANC members in my country with egg on their faces now - some of them having gone so far as to claim Israel itself was behind it all.
"Meanwhile a senior Hamas leader, Saleh Arouri, told a conference in Turkey the group carried out the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June - the first time anyone from the Islamic militant group has said it was behind an attack that helped spark the current war in the Gaza Strip.
"It was an operation by your brothers from the al-Qassam Brigades," he said, saying Hamas hoped to exchange the youths for Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.
Hamas has repeatedly praised the kidnappings, but Arouri, the group's exiled West Bank leader, is the first member to claim responsibility.
The kidnappings on June 12, along with the discovery of the youths' bodies two weeks later, sparked a broad Israeli crackdown on Hamas members throughout the West Bank."
http://www.news.com.au/world/breaking-news/hamas-admits-kidnapping-israeli-teens/story-e6frfkui-1227032650245?utm_source=News&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=99350214
Armistead
08-27-14, 05:04 PM
Posted by Sam Harris on his FB page. This guy is considered a moderate cleric in Kuwait....This is clearly the mindset and why Hamas/IS has to go.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4361.htm
Skybird
08-27-14, 06:13 PM
The conflict Israel versus Palestinian Arabs, is not the big deep-rooting thing as it appears, I mean the region would not become all of a sudden peaceful if they would have peace in Israel . But the conmfolict very well gets abused by many Arab actors for sort of a proxy war, mainly between Iran and Saudi Arabia, increasingly Quatar and Turkey play a major role and have major ambitions, too. And none of them care for the Palestinians Arabs, nor are they too concerned about Israel. Antisemitism and a general religious xenophobia in the end is an indispensable ingredient of the Islamic agenda.
However, one could think about why it is absolutely unrealistic to assume that Israel and the Palestinian Arabs will get a lasting peace deal and two state solution. And that has to do with the Palestinian demand for unlimited return of POalestinians - to Israel, not to the Palestinian territories of today. Minimum number estimated: 4 million people.
For Israel, accepting such a load of potentially hostile Muslims will mean the end of a stabile internal securitxy situation. We have seen how easily a rioting mob can destabilize and finally overthrow even regimes that act with much less civilised selfrestraint and greater love for police terror, than Israel: the Arab Spring that turned into an Arab winter holds very clear lessons to be learned. Israel last year had short of 8 million people, every fifth of them being Muslims Arab (1.6 million). If you add 4 million more Muslim Arabs, you then have 5.6 million Arabs versus 6.4 million Israeli Jews (and the Arabs in Westjordan and Gaza are not even counted and would come up with another 2.5 million or so, turning the Jews into the minority in looking at the whole place) - with the Palestinians having exploding birth rates, and the Jews not. You can easily imagine where this will lead to. If not to internal riots and violence, then to an "outbreeding" of the Jews by the Arabs, in the Jews' own country. Obviously, Israel will never and cannot afford to accept this "solution" of free right to return for all Arabs from the diaspora - it is strategic and demographic suicide.
The Palestinian autonomy government on the other side is a regime that gets celebrated quite much in the West, although it is not one bit different than the "democratic" and highly corrupted government of Mubarak has been. Nepotism and corruption, bribery, bending of laws and torture are the rule. Nevertheless Fatah has managed to get deals with Israel that brought some form of growing prosperity to Westjordan, compared to how it was before. With this wealth being mainly constructed and allowed by Israel and economically also founded on Israel, it nevertheless is a highly fragile social construction, with the chance of this relative increase in economic growth always being at risk if Fath would lose grip and the "ties" with Israel would crumble, and the radicals would take over like they did in Gaza.
Ignoring the separately battled-for status of Jerusalem, the remaining land of the Westjordan has around 2 - 2.2 million people. No need to reach total precision on that number: just to imagine that 4 million poor Arabs from the diaspora would suddenly flood into that society and economy, allows to forsee easily that this would mean the total economic collapse. Fatah could pack its sacks and things, if they do not throw them from house roofs like they did on Gaza, and the radicals would take over and Westjordan also would become Hamas country and thus an Iranian playground.
So, what you have is a situation where no side can existentially afford to give up its position on these 4 million people. There is no solution to this problem, not even if these 4 million people, that mostly are scattered over several Arab countries but also Europe and America, all of a sudden would decide to stop refusing integration in their hosting places, but to start settling down there indeed and integrate indeed there. Because this would be used by Hamas as an argument to call betrayal and treason by Fatah, and most likely would lead to a radicalization of the people again, from which only Hamas can win and Fatah must loose power. Even if Israel would agree a small, symbolical number of Arabs into Israel, and the rest stays where they are - for many Palestinians and especially the Hamas this again would be just a foul deal and they would react in the same fashion like before: the call "treason" would be followed by the call for "revenge!"
Who said that any problem existing necessarily also must have a solution somewhere? This problem is a mess. A mess with no way out - is possible to exist.
The longterm outlook? Very grim. For Israel.
Tribesman
08-28-14, 02:25 AM
For Israel, accepting such a load of potentially hostile Muslims will mean the end of a stabile internal securitxy situation. We have seen how easily a rioting mob can destabilize and finally overthrow even regimes that act with much less civilised selfrestraint and greater love for police terror, than Israel: the Arab Spring that turned into an Arab winter holds very clear lessons to be learned. Israel last year had short of 8 million people, every fifth of them being Muslims Arab (1.6 million). If you add 4 million more Muslim Arabs, you then have 5.6 million Arabs versus 6.4 million Israeli Jews (and the Arabs in Westjordan and Gaza are not even counted and would come up with another 2.5 million or so, turning the Jews into the minority in looking at the whole place) - with the Palestinians having exploding birth rates, and the Jews not. You can easily imagine where this will lead to. If not to internal riots and violence, then to an "outbreeding" of the Jews by the Arabs, in the Jews' own country. Obviously, Israel will never and cannot afford to accept this "solution" of free right to return for all Arabs from the diaspora - it is strategic and demographic suicide.
So the current situation is exactly like it was prior to the creation of Israel, so the creation of Israel was strategic and demographic suicide.
The longterm outlook? Very grim. For Israel.
Same as it was it the 40s then.
That probably explains why the creation of Israel was a bloody stupid idea in the first place.
I do like your new word. Westjordan.
Where exactly is that?
Remembering of course that no land in Jordan shall be part of any Palestinian arab state.
If Jordan is the mandated Palestinian territory east of the river is westjordan the mandated Palestinian territory west of the river, including that mandated territory currently known as Israel?:hmmm:
If you want to invent words you should define them or they are simply meaningless inventions of your own.
Who said that any problem existing necessarily also must have a solution somewhere? This problem is a mess. A mess with no way out - is possible to exist.
Some problems may not have solutions at given time yet things can change.
Problem is that ME runs on hormones and chemical imbalances ... reason why things usually get worse with time and logics doesn't work.:haha:
West Jordan...
Are you trolling lol
VipertheSniper
08-29-14, 07:28 AM
Westjordanland is the German word for the West Bank, I hope that clears things up somewhat.
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