Malaysia airlines B777 missing

[TarJak]

Ocean Shield detects signals in search for MH370 http://ab.co/1sqELFP

Sounds like the best lead yet.

[magic452]

Sounds encouraging. If they don't find it soon it may be years before they do.

Magic

[scorpiondown]

whether you want to believe that the US has the WHOLE world under surveillance or not is up to you....I wouldn,t bet against it after recent things have been revealed..As for the technology ,,better believe it! 1984 is here!Ask those terrorists in the middle of nowhere if they believe it..Oh sorry, they can,t answer because of that drone hellfire that atomized them! Us a cell phone and you are pin-pointed if they are looking for you..think anyone on that plane tried to use their phones?

[Flamebatter90]

Spotting potential bad guys in a hot zone, buzzing with drones is abit different from spotting an airliner in the middle of an ocean.

Using cellphones would have done little good as they were a) flying high up and b) in the middle of an ocean.

[CCIP]

Again, based on what? We're talking about very different things here. And even the cellphone thing is absurd, because we all know how effective all that has been - militias in Iraq and Afghanistan are stronger than ever. Heroin and cocaine prices in the US are at an all time low, because deliveries by land, sea and air are getting through and supply is high.

But none of that matters because where's the technology? If you can actually demonstrate the type of radar or other satellite sensor capable of this kind of surveillance at the level of coverage needed to track planes in even more remote parts of the world, then we'll see.

If history teaches us anything though, capabilities of new sensor technologies have typically been over-valued in peacetime, only to be found wholly deficient during war.

[Jimbuna]

My wish would be that the technological capability did exist and a 'lucky find' could be attributed to the planes location but I think had the aforementioned been possible then an announcement would have been made a long time ago.

[scorpiondown]

Who knows what exists...Bin laden was tracked from the US ,not from Pakistan or Afghanistan..Put under surveillance there once he was found...I can sit at this computer as any of you can..and track any flight in real-time..I watch when friends are flying in and track the flight the whole time..there is something fishy with them claiming they don,t know the flight plan..They let out that some sort of signal is automatically sent from every plane to satellites and it is not able to disable this from the cockpit(in effect ,a tracker)..If the oceans were being monitored 50 years ago with SOSUS,,why would today be any different?
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/South-Koreas-Secret-SOSUS-System-2-5-2011.asp BTW what is that BETBET thing in my last post??????

if this article was let out,other capabilities far beyond that are NOT being let out..Just like the US stealth fighters and bombers...If these were officially released to the press,,
that means something else has taken its place and has made that system almost obsolete...

Have to answer the "heroin" thing..Too much money involved for someone (who knows who) not to look the other way,,so many cases of cops only busting druggies after NOT getting their pay-offs..Always been that way,, will always stay that way..even during prohibition...Corruption is just doing business.

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/tools/acoustics/acoustics.html

[Herr-Berbunch]

whether you want to believe that the US has the WHOLE world under surveillance or not is up to you....I wouldn,t bet against it after recent things have been revealed..As for the technology ,,better believe it! 1984 is here!Ask those terrorists in the middle of nowhere if they believe it..Oh sorry, they can,t answer because of that drone hellfire that atomized them! Us a cell phone and you are pin-pointed if they are looking for you..think anyone on that plane tried to use their phones?

Terrorists or wedding party? Seems all the same, all too often with modern technology.

[mapuc]

^ scorpiondown, you're right some of the western countries have the technologies as you mentioned However and it is a big however.

You have to place some of these satellite over the area of where the plane went missing. What I understand USA has placed 2-3 of these satellite above following countries/area: North Korea, Syria/Iran or middle east and Ukraine/West Russia.

The area we speak of is not a political hot spot therefore no area of satellite surveillance.

Just for your information I'm talking about military spy satellite.

Markus

[scorpiondown]

China is the reason that area would be covered with surveillance...The US is worried about China increasing it,s naval capacity...I live near Cape Canaveral and there are always classified payload launches that are only covered on the news around here so people can watch the lift-offs..What are they???only can guess..More than just a few of those satellites lurking around up there..Military has an Un-limited budget especially for security reasons..Between US base in Diego Garcia,,Antarctica and Australian assets...Indian ocean is pretty well covered i,d think..

[vanjast]

Relax sport.. it's your polititians that will do you in.. not the terries, or the Chinese.
:03:

[TarJak]

I can sit at this computer as any of you can..and track any flight in real-time..I watch when friends are flying in and track the flight the whole time..there is something fishy with them claiming they don,t know the flight plan..They let out that some sort of signal is automatically sent from every plane to satellites and it is not able to disable this from the cockpit(in effect ,a tracker)..
Missed the part about the transponder stopping about an hour into the flight did you?

If the oceans were being monitored 50 years ago with SOSUS,,why would today be any different?
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/South-Koreas-Secret-SOSUS-System-2-5-2011.asp
Not sure how SONUS or similar would help in this case. We're talking about hearing a single splash in a very large ocean on a system designed to pick up a submarine. If any sensors picked the crash then why wait to say so? Hiding some supposedly secret technology is not enough.

Posting speculative nonsense is pointless.

[Tango589]

post moved to correct 'space shuttle' thread.

[Herr-Berbunch]

China is the reason that area would be covered with surveillance...

There's about 3,500 miles between Perth and the South China Sea. And the South China Sea is South of China.

Really, 1,000 miles to the NW of Perth is not where any military or intelligence agencies have pinpointed their focus for pretty much anything since Op Hurricane in '52.

[Platapus]

Military has an Un-limited budget especially for security reasons..

I wish I knew which military this is. It ain't the US military. The days of open checkbooks is long past. We are fighting for every buck these days.

[guntherprien]

I find it hard to believe that any major powers', hi tech submarine, didn't pick anything up.
These subs can pick up anomolous sounds a continent away.
The intelligence services know exactly where the plane is,but can't reveal due to security reasons.
I know this sounds conspiracy bs,but my friend of a friend of a friend.ad infinitum,wink,wink,serves on SSN's and he has told me things that would make your hair curl. 'Nuff said:know::know:

[mapuc]

That's one of the conspirators biggest problem... the lack of knowledge about certain things


A sub( just to take something) who may be around North Korea can't hear what happens many hundred miles away.

And should there have been a American sub in that area of the vanishing/crash, I know the information would be handed through the diplomatically or civilians channels, to the the legitimate authorities

I have seen a lot of pictures on Facebook- They can read the newspaper laying on the street, but they can't find a simple huge airplane-

Yes they could if they had a satellite in that specific area.( the nearest should be around North Korea and the chinese sea and from what I have learned these satellite haven't so much widespread area of seeing, but USA is planning to send some very advanced satellite into orbit.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:343a4a5d-47a2-467f-aae1-8fe5d25a485d

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Markus

[Platapus]

T

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Markus

The problem is that people who know about such things know better than to comment on the Internets Tubes

The people who would comment on the Internets Tubes probably don't really know. :D

[Penguin]

That's one of the conspirators biggest problem... the lack of knowledge about certain things


A sub( just to take something) who may be around North Korea can't hear what happens many hundred miles away.


Lack of knowledge is a problem which can be solved. A confirmation bias is harder.
Those people underestimate the size of the area, overestimate the state of our technology and have a blatent disregard for physical laws. Even unlimited funds can't compensate the latter.

A sub around NK might be able to pick up noises from the search area, but certainly not a signal from the black box's beacon.

[TarJak]

I know this sounds conspiracy bs,but my friend of a friend of a friend.ad infinitum,If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck....

[mapuc]

The problem is that people who know about such things know better than to comment on the Internets Tubes

The people who would comment on the Internets Tubes probably don't really know. :D

It's not some kind of a secret that USA have spy satellites. The question is where they could be at this moment.

It is here I made a guess-Ukraine, Middle East and North Korea/South China . Those are the hot spot in the world as we speak. I do not know how many USA have

And I'm 100 % sure that Russia know that a spy satellite is hanging over Ukraine.

Markus

[August]

whether you want to believe that the US has the WHOLE world under surveillance or not is up to you....I wouldn,t bet against it after recent things have been revealed..As for the technology ,,better believe it! 1984 is here!Ask those terrorists in the middle of nowhere if they believe it..Oh sorry, they can,t answer because of that drone hellfire that atomized them! Us a cell phone and you are pin-pointed if they are looking for you..think anyone on that plane tried to use their phones?


Hellfire? :)

FYI Cell phones don't work at 30kft. No missiles required.

[TarJak]

They don't work too well 4km under water either.

[BossMark]

The search for Flight 370 was declared "The most difficult in human history."

Amelia Earhart could not be reached for comment...

[TarJak]

Closing in but still no cigar: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-11/abbott-confident-signals-detected-coming-from-mh370-black-box/5384164

[Admiral Halsey]

The search for Flight 370 was declared "The most difficult in human history."

Amelia Earhart could not be reached for comment...

Is it bad that this made me laugh?

[guntherprien]

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck....And you know better,do you ? :haha:

[TarJak]

And you know better,do you ? :haha:No. But I'm also not claiming I know that intelligence services know where the aircraft is by spouting a bunch of poorly thought out speculation with very large factual errors.

The search is moving to its next phase: http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-14/malaysia-airlines-mh370-underwater-vessel-to-be-sent/5388550

[Jimbuna]

Probably the nearest the search has come to the aircraft and the batteries run dry :hmmm:

[BossMark]

I've just heard the 'Breaking News' that the search team looking for missing flight MH370 are going to deploy a submersible underwater search vehicle.

Now let me get this straight, only now, 5 weeks after a heavy metal object plunged into the sea, they are going to look underwater for it!

[GoldenRivet]

You are correct. I assume it is some sort of sea floor scanning sonar. Do you have any idea how incredibly long it takes to cover even a small area with one of those?

The past few weeks have been strictly a "narrowing down" operation. Looking for debris and listening for pings.

Now that they've heard pings and localized it to an area roughly similar in size to a major city they can use the scanning sonar sub. Meter by meter they will scan the sea floor for a man made object.

Even knowing exactly where to look it could take another month or two if long ladder pattern dredging with that sub.

Then if they find something. An ROV will be sent to check it out. Maybe even retrieve black boxes.

I think this jet is largely in one piece down there

[Jimbuna]

^ Agreed....if they do find it there is a good possibility it will be largely intact or in a few pieces (fuselage wise).

[swamprat69er]

Not really.
She told me that last night through the Wee Gee board!
:D
She also told me they are useing one to locate the wreck.
:haha:

Yes. I'm a sick SOB!
:har::har::har::haha:

[TarJak]

You are correct. I assume it is some sort of sea floor scanning sonar. Do you have any idea how incredibly long it takes to cover even a small area with one of those?

The past few weeks have been strictly a "narrowing down" operation. Looking for debris and listening for pings.

Now that they've heard pings and localized it to an area roughly similar in size to a major city they can use the scanning sonar sub. Meter by meter they will scan the sea floor for a man made object.

Even knowing exactly where to look it could take another month or two if long ladder pattern dredging with that sub.

Then if they find something. An ROV will be sent to check it out. Maybe even retrieve black boxes.

I think this jet is largely in one piece down there

Specs of the Bluefin 21 UAV being used for the underwater search. http://www.bluefinrobotics.com/products/bluefin-21/

Up till now they've been using a US Navy towed sonar array which was listening for the pinger locator beacon to narrow down the search. The towed array can only be moved at a max speed of 2kts. They are now using the UAV with sidescan sonar fitted to it to locate large underwater objects. Once they have a contact confirmed, they bring it back to the surface, fit cameras (can't carry both for some reason), for a visual search of the area.

[TarJak]

Good info graphic shows the scale of the problem depth wise http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/

[Jimbuna]

The first mission was cut short because the Bluefin operational depth had been reached.


A robotic submarine deployed to search for the missing Malaysia Airlines plane in the southern Indian Ocean has had its first mission cut short.

The Bluefin-21 was sent to search the sea floor for wreckage after signals believed to be consistent with "black box" flight recorders were detected.

But the drone exceeded its operating limit of 4,500m (15,000ft) and was brought back to the surface.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27030741

[STEED]

This is a dead horse. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads17/beatdeadhorse51277151977.gif

[Jimbuna]

Not necessarily.

12,500 feet – the depth of the wreck of the Titanic. The Titanic sank after striking an iceberg on its maiden voyage to New York in April 1912.It took 73 years to locate the wreck.

[mako88sb]

Good info graphic shows the scale of the problem depth wise http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/


Thanks for that. Really helps to show what they are up against. That is pretty close to the same depth that Liberty Bell 7 was located and recovered from back in 1999. Amazingly, it was the first potential target that they happened to use their ROV on after spending some time sweeping and listing hopeful targets. Considering the size of a Mercury capsule, I'm pretty confidant for the first time in quite awhile that they will be able to locate MH370 and hopefully figure out what the heck happened.

[TarJak]

Thanks for that. Really helps to show what they are up against. That is pretty close to the same depth that Liberty Bell 7 was located and recovered from back in 1999. Amazingly, it was the first potential target that they happened to use their ROV on after spending some time sweeping and listing hopeful targets. Considering the size of a Mercury capsule, I'm pretty confidant for the first time in quite awhile that they will be able to locate MH370 and hopefully figure out what the heck happened.

You can also then multiply the depth challenge by the 600 odd square miles of ocean they still searching in. Mind you that's now down from the original 28 million sq miles they started with.

[Mr Quatro]

Who's going to pay for all of this?

Sooner or later that little problem is going to come up.

Malaysian airlines insurance company?

CNN, Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC and other world news agencies are making tons of money off advertising.

Maybe they'll have a telethon using Jerry Lewis (is he still alive) or someone like that ... I can see it now:


"Okay folks we have located the black boxes, but this under seas project is costing over 1 million dollars a day we are going to need your support"

[TarJak]

So far the Australian Government's been footing most of the bill for the search coordination out of Perth. MAS will most likley have to cough up somewhere along the line and as they are government owned the Malaysian Government will be copping a lot of the bill.

The Airline's Insurance will only pay for the hull loss, and 3rd party claims on loss of life, luggage etc. Search doesn't get covered AFAIK.

[August]

Not necessarily.

I agree. 73 years from sinking to discovery glosses over the fact we only had the technology to actually conduct a successful search for a small fraction of that time.

[guntherprien]

No. But I'm also not claiming I know that intelligence services know where the aircraft is by spouting a bunch of poorly thought out speculation with very large factual errors.

The search is moving to its next phase: http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-14/malaysia-airlines-mh370-underwater-vessel-to-be-sent/5388550And you really believe everything the press tells you ?
On second thoughts,judging by your sweeping remarks,you probably do.
Do you know ANYTHING about the capabilities of modern listening techniques?:hmmm:

[TarJak]

And you really believe everything the press tells you ?
On second thoughts,judging by your sweeping remarks,you probably do.
Do you know ANYTHING about the capabilities of modern listening techniques?:hmmm:

No I don't believe everything the press tells me. I also don't believe every conspiracy theory that I read on the internet.

Yes, I know quite a bit about the capabilities of modern and also ancient and historic listening devices. It's been a career and hobby of mine for the past 30 years, and an interest of mine since my father explained how SONAR works to me almost 40 years ago. What would you like to know?

I also know a lot about the commercial airline industry and the capabilities and inadequacies for tracking aircraft in-flight,having worked in that industry for 16 years.


You've presented no facts to support your claim of intelligence services covering up the location of the missing aircraft.

Before attacking what I know. Perhaps you should provide what you know then we can discuss it in an adult fashion.

[Jimbuna]

And you really believe everything the press tells you ?
On second thoughts,judging by your sweeping remarks,you probably do.
Do you know ANYTHING about the capabilities of modern listening techniques?:hmmm:

Should I be detecting something of a negative nature in your tone/nuance?

[Jimbuna]

The Bluefin has eventually completed its first mission after three attempts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27048242

[STEED]

Lets flog some more...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads17/beatdeadhorse51277151977.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads17/beatdeadhorse51277151977.gif

[guntherprien]

Should I be detecting something of a negative nature in your tone/nuance?
I'm merely rebutting what I consider a negative response,maybe you should ask him the same question ?
Should I be detecting something threatening in your tone/nuance ? :hmmm:

[guntherprien]

No I don't believe everything the press tells me. I also don't believe every conspiracy theory rhat I read on the internet.



Before attacking what I know. Perhaps you should provide what you know then we can discuss it in an adult fashion.Pray tell what you know of modern listening techniques.
What I posted initially was nothing conspiratorial,it was straight from the horses mouth,not some 40 year old,ancient knowledge......Just saying :ping:
Try researching instead of attacking a friendly poster.
It's people like you that stop folk posting on here for fear of ridicule.
I will debate you on any subject you care to mention,as long as you try to be adult about it,quid pro quo ?

[Sailor Steve]

Pray tell what you know of modern listening techniques.
One could easily ask you the same question. You seem to claim knowledge of said techniques, but you have not yet demonstrated said knowledge. What do you know of these things?

And before you ask, I don't know anything, and I haven't claimed to know anything, but you have, and have insulted other people by challenging their opinions. So, what are your credentials?

What I posted initially was nothing conspiratorial,it was straight from the horses mouth,not some 40 year old,ancient knowledge......Just saying :ping:
So you say, but the problem is we only have your word for that. You have not shown any knowledge of the subject at all so far. Can you back up your claim of the government knowing exactly where the jet is but covering it up? If you can, then show it. If you can't, then your argument is no better than anyone else's.

Try researching instead of attacking a friendly poster.
Does this mean that you have done the research? Can you show it? If so, please do.

It's people like you that stop folk posting on here for fear of ridicule.
I would say it's people who make claims then don't back them up who invite ridicule upon themselves.

I will debate you on any subject you care to mention,as long as you try to be adult about it,quid pro quo ?
So you say, but you have hardly been adult about it so far. You make a claim. Someone asks you to prove it. You counter by asking if he believes everything the government tells him. He counters that by saying no, but he also says he doesn't believe everything he reads on the internet. You counter by claiming to have inside knowledge. The problem is that so far you have shown no evidence of what you claim, and accuse the person who challenges your claim of not doing his research and then of being childish.

So, can you show any evidence for this claim or not?

If not, I'm ready to argue that my cousin works in the satellite tracking industry and says the plane was zapped by aliens. Any takers?

Oh, by the way, I'm only mildly interested in where the plane went, and how, and why. What I'm interested in here is honest debate.

[TarJak]

Lets review your words not mine:I find it hard to believe that any major powers', hi tech submarine, didn't pick anything up.
These subs can pick up anomolous sounds a continent away.
The intelligence services know exactly where the plane is,but can't reveal due to security reasons.
I know this sounds conspiracy bs,but my friend of a friend of a friend.ad infinitum,wink,wink,serves on SSN's and he has told me things that would make your hair curl. 'Nuff said:know::know:
I selected the part where you said "I know this sounds conspiracy bs" and I suggested that it probably was. From the information that you have provided it certainly sounds like a conspiracy theory, so I can only assume that it most likely is one without some evidence to the contrary.

So far all we've seen from you is rhetoric that attempts to put the burden of disproving your unsupported claim on me.

Pray tell us what you have to support your claim of a government cover up.

Make your case or get off mine.

[guntherprien]

One could easily ask you the same question. You seem to claim knowledge of said techniques, but you have not yet demonstrated said knowledge. What do you know of these things?

And before you ask, I don't know anything, and I haven't claimed to know anything, but you have, and have insulted other people by challenging their opinions. So, what are your credentials?


So you say, but the problem is we only have your word for that. You have not shown any knowledge of the subject at all so far. Can you back up your claim of the government knowing exactly where the jet is but covering it up? If you can, then show it. If you can't, then your argument is no better than anyone else's.


Does this mean that you have done the research? Can you show it? If so, please do.


I would say it's people who make claims then don't back them up who invite ridicule upon themselves.


So you say, but you have hardly been adult about it so far. You make a claim. Someone asks you to prove it. You counter by asking if he believes everything the government tells him. He counters that by saying no, but he also says he doesn't believe everything he reads on the internet. You counter by claiming to have inside knowledge. The problem is that so far you have shown no evidence of what you claim, and accuse the person who challenges your claim of not doing his research and then of being childish.

So, can you show any evidence for this claim or not?

If not, I'm ready to argue that my cousin works in the satellite tracking industry and says the plane was zapped by aliens. Any takers?

Oh, by the way, I'm only mildly interested in where the plane went, and how, and why. What I'm interested in here is honest debate.I don't recall inviting you into this conversation.
Don't be so rude.
Have some manners instead of jumping into a full frontal attack,I know you're only trying to bolster your pal's response,but a little decorum goes a long way.
All I'm asking is for people to think outside of the box,instead of believing everything they hear.
A disappearance of this magnitude is unprecedented,my source says there is more to it than meets the eye (which is obvious).
It's absurd of you to ask me to back up 'my claim' that the govt. knows where it is,I was saying that there is no chance that if the plane crashed into the ocean that modern subs wouldn't have picked up the black box pings within 30 days.
Like I said,a little broader vision brings with it,it's own conclusions.
Best wishes and no offense taken/meant.

[NeonSamurai]

Alright let's all take a step back here <I am speaking as a moderator>, and relax. <moderator hat off>

Without my getting into it. The points are that a submarine may have picked up the pinging and the government it was attached to may have classified that knowledge. The opposite point is it is quite likely that a submarine did not hear this (there are not that many submarines in the ocean and they generally cannot hear for thousands of kilometers), and even if they did hear these sounds (plane hitting the water, or the pinging) the crew of the submarine may not have recognized the significance.

The other point was that if you are going to claim something and you want anyone to listen to it, it is wise to demonstrate that you have some knowledge in the subject (submarines and sonar in this case).

Anyhow lets keep it civil shall we?

[Sailor Steve]

I don't recall inviting you into this conversation.
It's an open internet forum. Did someone invite you to post in the first place? Anyone can say anything they want, as long as they don't violate the forum rules.

Don't be so rude.
Have some manners instead of jumping into a full frontal attack,I know you're only trying to bolster your pal's response,but a little decorum goes a long way.
How exactly was I rude? By posting a response on a forum?

All I'm asking is for people to think outside of the box,instead of believing everything they hear.
You did much more than that. You said flat out that the government knows exactly where the plane is but is covering it up.

A disappearance of this magnitude is unprecedented,my source says there is more to it than meets the eye (which is obvious).
Your unnamed source known only to you. Again, why should anyone believe you on your word alone?

It's absurd of you to ask me to back up 'my claim' that the govt. knows where it is,I was saying that there is no chance that if the plane crashed into the ocean that modern subs wouldn't have picked up the black box pings within 30 days.
You said the government knows where it is, and is covering it up. You stated it as a fact, rather than your opinion. A fact can be shown, or else it's not a fact. If you can't show it, then it's your opinion.

Like I said,a little broader vision brings with it,it's own conclusions.
Best wishes and no offense taken/meant.
But in a debate a statement must be backed up with facts, or else it is just opinion. Vision has nothing to do with it. What you say may be true, but you can't expect people to take your word for it, especially when you accuse others of swallowing lies. Until disproven, the government story may also be true.

[TarJak]

The effective radius the pinger can be heard is around 22km in ideal conditions, so IF a sub was in or near that radius, then it's POSSIBLE that a sub may have picked up the signal. You asserted that it was picked up as fact. There's a massive gulf between the possibility an it being a stated fact.

Does your mysterious source provide any hard evidence of the location being known?

[mapuc]

If you can then talk to someone who have been in the Baltic sea on a sub or on a military vessel with sonar.

I tell you this sea is very special with several layers of salt.

Can't remember every word one of our office told us.

A sub can be at one place on a given depth and a vessel can be about 2-4 nm away in a given direction and have it's sonar at the right depth and the ship can't hear the sub. But about 30 NM longer south an another ship hear the sub clearly(it was something like that, it was a lot more we were sitting in a classroom)

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

All I'm asking is for people to think outside of the box,instead of believing everything they hear.
A disappearance of this magnitude is unprecedented,my source says there is more to it than meets the eye (which is obvious).
I was saying that there is no chance that if the plane crashed into the ocean that modern subs wouldn't have picked up the black box pings within 30 days.
Like I said,a little broader vision brings with it,it's own conclusions.


Think outside the box, eye ...

A little broader vision, eye ...


I think they should go down and get the whole thing back up after they find it. Then we can see who was flying the darn thing and recover more than just a little black box.

The Glomar Explorer could sure come in handy to get the whole plane and it just happens to be drilling for oil in the Indian Ocean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSF_Explorer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSF_Explorer)

http://hnsa.org/doc/glomarexplorer/index.htm (http://hnsa.org/doc/glomarexplorer/index.htm)

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully something will be found in the next couple of days.

The search area for the missing MH370 plane has narrowed and will be at "a critical juncture" in the next two days, says Malaysia's acting transport minister.

Hishammuddin Hussein said an underwater drone would finish searching the area within the next week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27086583

[August]

The Glomar Explorer could sure come in handy to get the whole plane and it just happens to be drilling for oil in the Indian Ocean

I wonder about that. Didn't they screw up the only time they ever tried to lift a sunken vessel and nearly cause a nuclear detonation?

[Oberon]

I wonder about that. Didn't they screw up the only time they ever tried to lift a sunken vessel and nearly cause a nuclear detonation?

In their defence, it's not every day that a missile submarine is hauled up from such depths...that also being said, no pictures of what was recovered have ever been published...

Not wanting to be another person in this thread to go into full on conspiracy mode, but I think that they recovered a bit more of K-129 than is officially let on. Not a full wreck, obviously, but more than is commonly told. :03:

[Mr Quatro]

I wonder about that. Didn't they screw up the only time they ever tried to lift a sunken vessel and nearly cause a nuclear detonation?

They did have problems raising the submarine, but it was full of water and made out of steel and displaced a lot more than a Boeing 777 would.

One odd report I heard was that the submarine broke off and all they got was the torpedo room, but another report I heard said that they got the radio room and the missiles which are housed in the sail I think.

Oh well if they don't find it they can't bring it up and the people searching for the plane said they are going to complete their search next week.

So this is not going to go on forever ... :hmmm:

[August]

Yeah and I guess that all sorts of related technologies have come along way too. About the only thing still left on that ship that was used back in 1968 was her hull.

[Admiral Halsey]

In their defence, it's not every day that a missile submarine is hauled up from such depths...that also being said, no pictures of what was recovered have ever been published...

Not wanting to be another person in this thread to go into full on conspiracy mode, but I think that they recovered a bit more of K-129 than is officially let on. Not a full wreck, obviously, but more than is commonly told. :03:

Oh they probably did get more then what they said the got. Has anyone actually visited the wreck site since then?

[Oberon]

Oh they probably did get more then what they said the got. Has anyone actually visited the wreck site since then?

The site's location is classified, and it's about 5,000 to 6,000m down (approx 16,000 to 20,000ft), so it would take a lot of effort to get to it.

[Jimbuna]

A submarine scanning the ocean floor for signs of a missing Malaysian airliner is two-thirds of the way through its search but has yet to find the plane, officials say.

The Bluefin-21 submarine was to embark on its ninth search mission on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27100087

[guntherprien]

In their defence, it's not every day that a missile submarine is hauled up from such depths...that also being said, no pictures of what was recovered have ever been published...

Not wanting to be another person in this thread to go into full on conspiracy mode, but I think that they recovered a bit more of K-129 than is officially let on. Not a full wreck, obviously, but more than is commonly told. :03:Hi,welcome to the conspiracy mode nutters party.
Unless you can provide solid links (to the recovery of the nukes),particularly ones that are covered under the official secrets act,you will be ,like me,consigned to the fringes.
Welcome aboard! :arrgh!:
Oh,and btw,submarines can pick up sounds continents away,yes,thousands of miles,did the nay sayers not know that?
My source is an officer in the RN,aboard an SSN,he is my mates uncle,he says things he shouldn't really.:know:
And the poster (s) that mentioned salinity layers,need to get out of ww2 mode,that ceased to be a factor many years ago,SOSUS amongst others put paid to that.
Things like magnetic anomalies and satellite imagery and the actual displacement of the vessels are all amongst the many factors of submarine detection these days.

Happy Easter to you all.

[STEED]

We're running out of horses to flog better check eBay. :haha:

[TarJak]

Ask your mate about this if any of it is unclear.

A 37.5 kHz (160.5 dB re 1 μPa) pinger can be detectable 1–2 kilometres (0.62–1.24 mi) from the surface in normal conditions and 4–5 kilometres (2.5–3.1 mi) in good conditions. A 37.5 kHz (180 dB re 1 μPa) transponder pinger can be detected 4–5 kilometres (2.5–3.1 mi) in normal conditions and 6–7 kilometres (3.7–4.3 mi) in good conditions. Transponder 10 kHz (180 dB re 1 μPa) range is 7–9 kilometres (4.3–5.6 mi) in normal conditions and 17–22 kilometres (11–14 mi) in good conditions.

Underwater acoustic propagation depends on many factors. The direction of sound propagation is determined by the sound speed gradients in the water. In the sea the vertical gradients are generally much larger than the horizontal ones. Combining this with a tendency towards increasing sound speed at increasing depth, due to the increasing pressure in the deep sea, causes a reversal of the sound speed gradient in the thermocline, creating an efficient waveguide at the depth, corresponding to the minimum sound speed. The sound speed profile may cause regions of low sound intensity called "Shadow Zones," and regions of high intensity called "Caustics". These may be found by ray tracing methods.

At equator and temperate latitudes in the ocean, the surface temperature is high enough to reverse the pressure effect, such that a sound speed minimum occurs at depth of a few hundred metres. The presence of this minimum creates a special channel known as Deep Sound Channel, previously known as the SOFAR (sound fixing and ranging) channel, permitting guided propagation of underwater sound for thousands of kilometres without interaction with the sea surface or the seabed. Another phenomenon in the deep sea is the formation of sound focusing areas, known as Convergence Zones. In this case sound is refracted downward from a near-surface source and then back up again. The horizontal distance from the source at which this occurs depends on the positive and negative sound speed gradients. A surface duct can also occur in both deep and moderately shallow water when there is upward refraction, for example due to cold surface temperatures. Propagation is by repeated sound bounces off the surface.

In general, as sound propagates underwater there is a reduction in the sound intensity over increasing ranges, though in some circumstances a gain can be obtained due to focusing. Propagation loss (sometimes referred to as transmission loss) is a quantitative measure of the reduction in sound intensity between two points, normally the sound source and a distant receiver. If I_s is the far field intensity of the source referred to a point 1 m from its acoustic centre and I_r is the intensity at the receiver, then the propagation loss is given by[1] PL=10log (I_s/I_r). In this equation I_r is not the true acoustic intensity at the receiver, which is a vector quantity, but a scalar equal to the equivalent plane wave intensity (EPWI) of the sound field. The EPWI is defined as the magnitude of the intensity of a plane wave of the same RMS pressure as the true acoustic field. At short range the propagation loss is dominated by spreading while at long range it is dominated by absorption and/or scattering losses.

An alternative definition is possible in terms of pressure instead of intensity,[13] giving PL=20 log (p_s/p_r), where p_s is the RMS acoustic pressure in the far-field of the projector, scaled to a standard distance of 1 m, and p_r is the RMS pressure at the receiver position.

These two definitions are not exactly equivalent because the characteristic impedance at the receiver may be different from that at the source. Because of this, the use of the intensity definition leads to a different sonar equation to the definition based on a pressure ratio. If the source and receiver are both in water, the difference is small.

The simple outline without all the science, is that the pinger is quite quiet (deliberately so), therefore picking it up "thousands of miles away" is not actually that easy. I'm not saying its impossible, however its very unlikely even given modern classified technology. They transmit on specific frequencies that make them easier to locate with pinpoint accuracy when you are on top of them. Not from thousands of miles away. If they were loud enough to be heard that far away they would actually be harder to pinpoint because they would saturate sensitive hydrophones that are too close.

You RN mate may know more about the science than I do, but unless he and his colleagues know where the FDR and CVR are, then he doesn't know any more about this than the rest of us.

[Sailor Steve]

Hi,welcome to the conspiracy mode nutters party.
Unless you can provide solid links (to the recovery of the nukes),particularly ones that are covered under the official secrets act,you will be ,like me,consigned to the fringes.
Just to be clear on my part in this, I don't consider you to be a "nutter" or on the fringes. For me it's much simpler. In any debate, if you make a claim, especially one not accompanied by "I think" or "I believe", you should be able to back it up, or else it's not worth the paper it's printed on. No one should be expected to take anyone's word for anything. An acknowledged expert in a field has an advantage, but then an expert in the field has access to the facts. "Believe me, I know this" is never good enough.

[guntherprien]

@ TarJak...."You RN mate may know more about the science than I do, but unless he and his colleagues know where the FDR and CVR are, then he doesn't know any more about this than the rest of us.[/QUOTE]"




...My RN mate knows a little more than the out dated propaganda that google allows you to party on,trust me,but there again,lemming like behaviour of the general public is the basis of national security and governmental control.
Have you ever served in the services,a serious question,because if you have,you will have a basic understanding of what I'm trying to say here ?
Last reply here,it embarrasses me that supposed knowledgeable folk on here are questioning the basic premise of official secrets.
We have come a long way since the V11C.:subsim:

[Mr Quatro]

@ TarJak...."You RN mate may know more about the science than I do, but unless he and his colleagues know where the FDR and CVR are, then he doesn't know any more about this than the rest of us."

...My RN mate knows a little more than the out dated propaganda that google allows you to party on,trust me,but there again,lemming like behaviour of the general public is the basis of national security and governmental control.
Have you ever served in the services,a serious question,because if you have,you will have a basic understanding of what I'm trying to say here ?
Last reply here,it embarrasses me that supposed knowledgeable folk on here are questioning the basic premise of official secrets.
We have come a long way since the V11C.[/QUOTE]

Begging your pardon sir, but there is something called a 'sea story' of which I have also been guilty of telling ever so often with no excuse as to why or even how I got away with it.

If submarines could hear sounds 1,000 miles away they wouldn't need SOUS which has passive sensors that reach from PR to who knows where and can track sounds all the way across the Atlantic Ocean.

Oh I know they say they discontinued it, but you know how they lie.:o

Now my friend in the sub service tells me 50 to 60 miles is more like it :yep:

[TarJak]

I don't question the basis of the official secrets act, having signed an agreement to abide by it.

Like Steve, I question whether a claim is likely to be true based on evidence alone. Whether or not you or anyone else here is a nutter is neither here nor there

Interesting that you claim the laws of physics can be classed as outdated propaganda.

[mapuc]

I made a google search just to see if there was more info about a sub's sonar

I found this old article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460753/Britain-launches-massive-submarine-hear-ship-Atlantic.html

Here's something from the article

"Astute’s sonar is so advanced
that if she was lying in the
English Channel she would be
able to detect ships leaving
New York harbour 3,000
nautical miles away (although the
details of how she can do this
are classified). "

Ok, there is Sub today that have such advanced Sonar, the next question is was there any type of such sub near that area of which this plane could have crashed?

Markus

[Admiral Halsey]

The site's location is classified, and it's about 5,000 to 6,000m down (approx 16,000 to 20,000ft), so it would take a lot of effort to get to it.
Then who knows how much they actually recovered. For all we know they got the whole sub and there was something in her that was valuable enough to make them say they only recovered part of her.
I made a google search just to see if there was more info about a sub's sonar

I found this old article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460753/Britain-launches-massive-submarine-hear-ship-Atlantic.html

Here's something from the article

"Astute’s sonar is so advanced
that if she was lying in the
English Channel she would be
able to detect ships leaving
New York harbour 3,000
nautical miles away (although the
details of how she can do this
are classified). "

Ok, there is Sub today that have such advanced Sonar, the next question is was there any type of such sub near that area of which this plane could have crashed?

Markus

I doubt the sonar is really that powerful.

[August]

Not to mention there being a vast difference between an ocean going ship with it's huge engines and the sinking wreckage of a tiny airliner.

[Admiral Halsey]

Not to mention there being a vast difference between an ocean going ship with it's huge engines and the sinking wreckage of a tiny airliner.

Well depending on how the thing hit the water it probably made a big splash.

[NeonSamurai]

I made a google search just to see if there was more info about a sub's sonar

I found this old article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460753/Britain-launches-massive-submarine-hear-ship-Atlantic.html

Here's something from the article

"Astute’s sonar is so advanced
that if she was lying in the
English Channel she would be
able to detect ships leaving
New York harbour 3,000
nautical miles away (although the
details of how she can do this
are classified). "

Ok, there is Sub today that have such advanced Sonar, the next question is was there any type of such sub near that area of which this plane could have crashed?

Markus

I would never ever rely on any news media giving even remotely reliable information on military equipment. Particularly if it comes from the daily fail (a nickname well deserved imho). I still remember Wolf Blitzer, CNN's military expert (re, military idiot) making all kinds of absurd claims and statements about equipment, frequently even getting the names or classifications wrong.

As TarJak effectively stated, yes it is possible to hear for a thousand miles or more, but it depends on a whole host of factors, and most importantly the intensity and frequency range of the sound. Splashes also are not that loud either. Particularly if it is a bunch of little chunks, or if the plane glided down into the water and belly landed.

[guntherprien]

Just to be clear on my part in this, I don't consider you to be a "nutter" or on the fringes. For me it's much simpler. In any debate, if you make a claim, especially one not accompanied by "I think" or "I believe", you should be able to back it up, or else it's not worth the paper it's printed on. No one should be expected to take anyone's word for anything. An acknowledged expert in a field has an advantage, but then an expert in the field has access to the facts. "Believe me, I know this" is never good enough...I understand what you're saying Steve but,sometimes ones argument has to be bolstered by logic,factors like the official secrets act cloud many obvious truths,as I'm certain you know.
TBH,I don't even believe the 'plane crashed at all,stranger things happen at sea,lol.

[guntherprien]

I would never ever rely on any news media giving even remotely reliable information on military equipment. Particularly if it comes from the daily fail (a nickname well deserved imho). I still remember Wolf Blitzer, CNN's military expert (re, military idiot) making all kinds of absurd claims and statements about equipment, frequently even getting the names or classifications wrong.

As TarJak effectively stated, yes it is possible to hear for a thousand miles or more, but it depends on a whole host of factors, and most importantly the intensity and frequency range of the sound. Splashes also are not that loud either. Particularly if it is a bunch of little chunks, or if the plane glided down into the water and belly landed.You speak as if you are privy to the latest technology.
All this does is lend credence to my posts,you know no more or less than anyone else.
Like a previous poster said,either put up or shut up,or words to that effect.
Now,do you know what position I was put in ?
No one but the top echelon military has a firm idea where that 'plane is,certainly not armchair posters like you and I.
It was intimated to me by a serving officer the general thoughts of the time of his peers,I should never have relayed them on here,neither him to me tbh,but there you go,a lesson learned.
I was passing on what I had heard,I should have learned the missive "loose lips sink ships ":O:
On a lighter note,I hope you all had a bloody nice easter break.:yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

..I understand what you're saying Steve
I wonder if you do?

but,sometimes ones argument has to be bolstered by logic
Logic is the science of reason. Demanding that someone believe an unsubstantiated claim is not logic. An unsubstantiated claim is a claim, no more. As I said, if a claim is not supported by shown facts, then it is worth nothing.

factors like the official secrets act cloud many obvious truths,as I'm certain you know.
A truth that is clouded is not obvious. A truth that is obvious is not clouded. Everything you claim is certainly possible, but neither more nor less likely than any other stated theory. The only way to lend weight to an agrument is to show facts.

TBH,I don't even believe the 'plane crashed at all,stranger things happen at sea,lol.
I don't know anything about this, so I don't try to believe anything about it either. It seems more likely that the plane crashed accidentally than that it was shot down, hijacked and diverted, kidnapped by aliens or lost in the time stream. All are theoretically possible, but the one is more likely simply because it happens much more often than any of the others.

That said, I don't pretend to "believe" anything until I see some actual evidence.

[Sailor Steve]

Like a previous poster said,either put up or shut up,or words to that effect.
Nice to turn it back on other people, but you haven't put up anything yet, and here you are still going on about it.

Now,do you know what position I was put in ?
You put yourself in that position. It wasn't your making the statement that put you there, but your insistence that it was fact.

No one but the top echelon military has a firm idea where that 'plane is,certainly not armchair posters like you and I.
How do you know they know where it is?

It was intimated to me by a serving officer the general thoughts of the time of his peers
So you say. But you can't or won't prove that either.

I should never have relayed them on here,neither him to me tbh,but there you go,a lesson learned.
I disagree. Relaying that you were told something is fine, and that you believe it is fine. The only thing you did wrong was to claim it was a fact. As I said, it may be true, but you, or him, saying it doesn't make it so. I, at least, need to see evidence before I'll believe anything.

On a lighter note,I hope you all had a bloody nice easter break.:yeah:
I'm retired. My whole life is a break. :D

[TarJak]

..I understand what you're saying Steve but,sometimes ones argument has to be bolstered by logic,factors like the official secrets act cloud many obvious truths,as I'm certain you know.
TBH,I don't even believe the 'plane crashed at all,stranger things happen at sea,lol.

I'm struggling to follow this logic. The Royal Navy knows where it is because of new secret submarine sensors, implying that it must have gone into the sea (crashed), but you don't believe it crashed at all.

Which is it?

[NeonSamurai]

You speak as if you are privy to the latest technology.
All this does is lend credence to my posts,you know no more or less than anyone else.
Like a previous poster said,either put up or shut up,or words to that effect.
Now,do you know what position I was put in ?
No one but the top echelon military has a firm idea where that 'plane is,certainly not armchair posters like you and I.
It was intimated to me by a serving officer the general thoughts of the time of his peers,I should never have relayed them on here,neither him to me tbh,but there you go,a lesson learned.
I was passing on what I had heard,I should have learned the missive "loose lips sink ships ":O:
On a lighter note,I hope you all had a bloody nice easter break.:yeah:

If there is a specific part you want me to document from my post, it would be helpful if you would state what specifically you take umbrage with so that I can address it. I would also point out that just because your friend is in the military, that it doesn't mean that he knows any more than any of us, or that what he is saying is anything but his own wild supposition.

[Oberon]

Basically, to sum up the last forty pages:

http://thefabweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/EGopFRS.png

[Tango589]

I found this old article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460753/Britain-launches-massive-submarine-hear-ship-Atlantic.html

Here's something from the article

"Astute’s sonar is so advanced
that if she was lying in the
English Channel she would be
able to detect ships leaving
New York harbour 3,000
nautical miles away (although the
details of how she can do this
are classified). "
This has caught my interest, as I would have thought that the sound of a ship leaving harbour 3000 miles away would have been drowned out by all the other shipping noise in the water. Or are these things able to differentiate individual sound signatures at such a long range?:hmmm:

[TarJak]

Pinpointing distance along the sound vector is also a challenge that is dependent on conditions,depth and the type of sound being generated.

[TarJak]

Investigation of a chunk of debris washed up on the WA coast has started after it was found yesterday. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-23/material-washed-ashore-examined-for-links-to-flight-mh370/5407584

[TarJak]

ATSB has confirmed that the debris has no link to the missing aircraft. Another dead end.

[Jimbuna]

I'm still hopeful the aircraft will be found.

[guntherprien]

I wonder if you do?


Logic is the science of reason. Demanding that someone believe an unsubstantiated claim is not logic. An unsubstantiated claim is a claim, no more. As I said, if a claim is not supported by shown facts, then it is worth nothing.


A truth that is clouded is not obvious. A truth that is obvious is not clouded. Everything you claim is certainly possible, but neither more nor less likely than any other stated theory. The only way to lend weight to an agrument is to show facts.


I don't know anything about this, so I don't try to believe anything about it either. It seems more likely that the plane crashed accidentally than that it was shot down, hijacked and diverted, kidnapped by aliens or lost in the time stream. All are theoretically possible, but the one is more likely simply because it happens much more often than any of the others.

That said, I don't pretend to "believe" anything until I see some actual evidence....I thank the Lord you weren't in any kind of authority during ww2 onwards.
Your kind of timidness is......:oops:.Have some cojones,man..:oops:.

[guntherprien]

Nice to turn it back on other people, but you haven't put up anything yet, and here you are still going on about it.


You put yourself in that position. It wasn't your making the statement that put you there, but your insistence that it was fact.


How do you know they know where it is?


So you say. But you can't or won't prove that either.


I disagree. Relaying that you were told something is fine, and that you believe it is fine. The only thing you did wrong was to claim it was a fact. As I said, it may be true, but you, or him, saying it doesn't make it so. I, at least, need to see evidence before I'll believe anything.


I'm retired. My whole life is a break. :DSeriously,you make me feel a little nauseous with your safe negativity.
Do you remember your youth when you used to actually question things?
I never once quoted as fact,I purposely left it for others to decide,hurry and feverishly backtrack the posts...lol.
You are a bona fide dinosaur imo,why don't you infraction me,you've been dieing to for ages.....
You need to review your own replies and realise that you are the one who hasn't been keeping up to speed.
I'm seriously disappointed with major posters like you,you let the website down.
Revise,is your latest keyword.
REVISE.:subsim:

[Flamebatter90]

This has caught my interest, as I would have thought that the sound of a ship leaving harbour 3000 miles away would have been drowned out by all the other shipping noise in the water. Or are these things able to differentiate individual sound signatures at such a long range?:hmmm:

Excellent point.

[Sailor Steve]

...I thank the Lord you weren't in any kind of authority during ww2 onwards.
Your kind of timidness is......:oops:.Have some cojones,man..:oops:.
Refusing to believe your claim on your word alone is being timid? At least I let everyone here know my real name and show my real face.

Do you remember your youth when you used to actually question things?
I still do. I question everything, including your claims.

I never once quoted as fact,I purposely left it for others to decide,hurry and feverishly backtrack the posts...lol.
Actually you said:
The intelligence services know exactly where the plane is,but can't reveal due to security reasons.
You didn't say "I believe, or I think...", you stated it as if it were a known fact, even if known only by you.

You are a bona fide dinosaur imo,why don't you infraction me,you've been dieing to for ages.....
You don't like what I say, so you start calling names? You might be right. Infract you? You haven't broken any rules, and I'm not dying to do anything.

You need to review your own replies and realise that you are the one who hasn't been keeping up to speed.
Keeping up to what speed? You claimed to have inside knowledge, yet you can't or won't show it. I challenged you on that. Where's the problem?

I'm seriously disappointed with major posters like you,you let the website down.
Refusing to believe your claims on your word alone is letting the website down? You made a claim. You can't back it up.

Revise,is your latest keyword.
Revise what, exactly? :sunny:

[mapuc]

The headline in one of the danish tabloid paper

Danish flight expert on mysterious Flight 370:
"We are being deceived


we have not got the whole truth told by the Malaysian authorities. I think we are misled. There is someone who knows more than what is said"

and the adventure continues

Markus

[Oberon]

http://pickyrunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/dog-chasing-tail-o.gif

[Buddahaid]

Seriously,you make me feel a little nauseous with your safe negativity.
Do you remember your youth when you used to actually question things?
I never once quoted as fact,I purposely left it for others to decide,hurry and feverishly backtrack the posts...lol.
You are a bona fide dinosaur imo,why don't you infraction me,you've been dieing to for ages.....
You need to review your own replies and realise that you are the one who hasn't been keeping up to speed.
I'm seriously disappointed with major posters like you,you let the website down.
Revise,is your latest keyword.
REVISE.:subsim:

All hat and no cattle.

[CCIP]

Wow, it's been a long time that I've seen someone on Subsim who was so remarkably full of themselves without providing an inkling of any substance, supporting material or analysis, especially in a discussion with two people who've backed up their points with plenty of substance, experience and knowledge. All we get instead is a mysterious "source" and "big picture" thinking, followed by ad hominem attacks at respectable people able to behave themselves in a discussion. Unlike some.

:/\\!!

[Jimbuna]

With 95% of the search area covered and having found nothing, the area may be expanded.

The underwater search for the missing Malaysia Airlines plane could expand from its focused area in the Indian Ocean, Australian officials say.

A submersible has completed 95% of its search in the area where possible signals from the plane's flight recorder were heard on 8 April.

If nothing is found, the Bluefin-21 will move to an adjacent area, the agency co-ordinating the search said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27141914

[Dread Knot]

Wow, it's been a long time that I've seen someone on Subsim who was so remarkably full of themselves without providing an inkling of any substance, supporting material or analysis, especially in a discussion with two people who've backed up their points with plenty of substance, experience and knowledge. All we get instead is a mysterious "source" and "big picture" thinking, followed by ad hominem attacks at respectable people able to behave themselves in a discussion. Unlike some.

:/\\!!

Some people have a real difficult time shouldering a concept known as the burden of proof. However, they're very good at tossing that burden unto the shoulders of others.

http://www.chrisasbury.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Shifting-the-Burden-of-Proof.png

[Tango589]

All hat and no cattle.
All fur coat and no knickers.

[August]

All fur coat and no knickers.

Depends on the person wearing the coat as to whether that's a bad thing... :)

[Mr Quatro]

With 95% of the search area covered and having found nothing, the area may be expanded.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27141914

Glad to see they won't give up ... reports this would be the end of the search were circulating.

as for you people that are in disagreement ... how rude of you are guntherprien putting down Sailor Steve is just not done. I'm shocked he was so easy on you.

Other forums have something called, "the pit" where people go when they have disagreements.

Could subim use a place called, "the pit"?

[Aktungbby]

... followed by ad hominem attacks at respectable people able to behave themselves in a discussion. Unlike some.:/\\!!
In my line of work, 'ad hominem attacks' by 'modified Sasquatches' ARE preferred (less fangs and talons-spouses excepted); as in the Napa Valley: 'In VINO Veritas' is oft the modus operendi or 'casus belli' of such things... As opposed to a cut-rate ale for example:D I am becoming more respectable though myself, having recently upgraded from "two buck Chuck" to a $3 Foxborough Chardonnay thus giving a broader bent to my reasoning and rationale-- whilst helping? diminish my own 'reductio ad absurdum'! :03: :()1:"CCIP!" "What Aktung?" " "Who says Latin is a dead language?" :woot:

[Jimbuna]

It would be much appreciated if we could all stay on topic.

[BossMark]

This is not the jokes page.

[Tango589]

http://rs298.pbsrc.com/albums/mm260/tango589/94941-monkey-sigh-rimshot-gif-drums-K5UJ.gif~c200

[STEED]

Still flogging a dead horse? :03:

[Flamebatter90]

Still flogging a dead horse? :03:

Still flogging the man who's flogging the dead horse? :)

[STEED]

^Donkeys?

[Skybird]

Australian company claims to have found a huge airliner wreck.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-georesonance-wreckage-of-a-commercial-airliner-found/

[Admiral Halsey]

Australian company claims to have found a huge airliner wreck.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-georesonance-wreckage-of-a-commercial-airliner-found/

Hmm.... Well considering the last KNOWN heading and not something we got from pings this location make a whole lot more sense then Australia.(Seriously why the heck would the thing be off Australia when the last confirmed heading wasn't even pointing close to the direction?)

[Flamebatter90]

Looks like a lot of people are calling GeoResonance a hoax on various discussion boards.

So, I did a little digging.

GR claims on their site to have found the 'Armenia' in 2005, a ship sunk during the World War II in the Black Sea.

The Wikipedia page for the ship mentions this, but lists no source.

After a (very) quick google search, I found an article from 2008, that was about Ukraine and Americans still trying to find the ship.
http://www.stripes.com/news/americans-ukrainians-pool-resources-to-find-sunken-wwii-era-hospital-ship-1.82888

[Jimbuna]

Australian company claims to have found a huge airliner wreck.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-georesonance-wreckage-of-a-commercial-airliner-found/

A US official with knowledge of the investigation is being quoted as being 'very skeptical' but since nothing else has been found thus far it must be worth investigating.

[Mr Quatro]

One things for sure we are not getting all of the right information at the right time. This whole investigation has been screwy with the pilots just now being considered suspects.

The fact that the pilot was friends with the political opposition leader that was jailed the same day has me concerned also, plus the co-pilot was 29 and one of the passengers was a civil aeronautical engineer that was 29.

Do you think we will ever know? They say the flight data recorder rewrites it self every two hours if it wasn't turned off at the switch board that is and that is outside the pilots cabin and under a floor board visible to passengers in the main cabin (if they were still alive that is).


I still think Captain Shah the pilot, was having a hard day with his friend in the opposition party being jailed on sodomy charges just hours before his flight.

Quote from within a quote from: http://shanghaiist.com/2014/03/17/links-between-mh370-disappearance-zaharie-politics-dismissed.php

Captian Shah was an ‘obsessive’ supporter of Ibrahim. And hours before the doomed flight left Kuala Lumpur it is understood 53-year-old Shah attended a controversial trial in which Ibrahim was jailed for five years.

Campaigners say the politician, the key challenger to Malaysia’s ruling party, was the victim of a long-running smear campaign and had faced trumped-up charges.

Police sources have confirmed that Shah was a vocal political activist - and fear that the court decision left him profoundly upset. It was against this background that, seven hours later, he took control of a Boeing 777-200 bound for Beijing and carrying 238 passengers and crew.
In his defense they also report that the Captain of MH 370 was not actually seen at the trial and the article also points out that the sodomy charges were trumped up, but I think there could still be a link.

Maybe another communication was transmitted and it will never be revealed due to politics and or possible criminal lawsuits that Malaysian airlines can not afford?

[Skybird]

Not the most credible media source, I admit, but the story is being published in German media as well:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2619388/What-havent-told-cargo-MH370-Mystery-deepens-missing-flight-claims-loaded-2-3tonnes-items-not-listed-manifest.html

Terror suspects arrested and quizzed on lost flight and mysterious 2 tons of unidentified freight. Lithium batteries as cause of catastrophic fire? A conspiration to kill 20 IT experts aboard?

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-29/mh370-ping-believed-to-have-come-from-missing-plane-other-source/5485970

Oops!

[CCIP]

So... basically back to square one :dead:

[Jimbuna]

Yep....'Ping area' ruled out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27615173

[Admiral Halsey]

Doesn't surprise me really. I always thought that the plane going in that direction was weird. Honestly the should just check where the thing would've landed had it just kept going on it's last known confirmed direction. I betcha that's where the thing is.

[Mr Quatro]

Doesn't surprise me really. I always thought that the plane going in that direction was weird. Honestly the should just check where the thing would've landed had it just kept going on it's last known confirmed direction. I betcha that's where the thing is.

They don't mean the engine pings, a lot of fancy math was used for that direction to the Southern Indian Ocean, including but not limited to no other radar systems captured the plane in a Northerly direction.

So it's not the pings of the engines received by the satellite that is in question. It's the underwater pings that are now in question.

The Chinese navy heard the first ping, but the next series of pings were over 300 miles away and that was the series of pings that have now been discounted, okay?

[CCIP]

even with that... I will eat crow if it turns out to be somewhere other than the bottom of the Indian Ocean :O:

[Admiral Halsey]

They don't mean the engine pings, a lot of fancy math was used for that direction to the Southern Indian Ocean, including but not limited to no other radar systems captured the plane in a Northerly direction.

So it's not the pings of the engines received by the satellite that is in question. It's the underwater pings that are now in question.

The Chinese navy heard the first ping, but the next series of pings were over 300 miles away and that was the series of pings that have now been discounted, okay?

It still doesn't make any sense though. Either way would it really hurt them if they dispatched a small team just to take a look?

[Jimbuna]

even with that... I will eat crow if it turns out to be somewhere other than the bottom of the Indian Ocean :O:

No evidence to back up my instinctive feeling but I agree :yep:

[Flamebatter90]

It still doesn't make any sense though. Either way would it really hurt them if they dispatched a small team just to take a look?
Why is it strange? Plenty of radars to the north, if it went there. That's the conclusion they've come to; someone would have noticed the plane if it went north.

I do agree that the south isnt the only possibility, it could've gone southwest too, ending up in the middle of Indian Ocean.

I guess MH370 will be another one of those unsolved mysteries, sadly.

[Mr Quatro]

I don't know why this woman waited so long to come foreword with her sighting, but it puts MH370 back up North again: http://news.yahoo.com/woman-claims-she-saw-missing-malaysian-air-flight-173405219.html


Woman Claims She Saw Missing Malaysian Air Flight While Sailing In Indian Ocean
If true that is, why was it on fire so far off course?

[Dread Knot]

I don't know why this woman waited so long to come foreword with her sighting, but it puts MH370 back up North again: http://news.yahoo.com/woman-claims-she-saw-missing-malaysian-air-flight-173405219.html

If true that is, why was it on fire so far off course?

Did she see Jimmy Hoffa's body float by too? Like any unsolved mystery, there will always be those who claim to have clues with not much to back it up. I'm not saying we should discount such sea stories, but they should also be taken with a grain of salt.

[Mr Quatro]

A whistle blower could wind up dead in Malaysian, but now the families of the passengers of flight 370 have hired a private investigator plus offering a $5 million dollar reward.

Shouldn't take long now to find out who, what, when instead of where, uh?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10884609/MH370-families-launch-appeal-for-whistle-blowers.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10884609/MH370-families-launch-appeal-for-whistle-blowers.html)


MH370 families launch $5 million campaign to hire private investigators and find whistle-blowers, as oil rig worker claims he was sacked after sighting the plane

[Catfish]

I think they should consult John P. Craven :yep:

edit:
Oops. Looks like they will !

“The same approach we used with Scorpion could be applied in this case and should be,” John P. Craven, the former Navy scientist credited with finding the Scorpion (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/28/us/report-blames-submarine-flaws-for-1963-sinking.html?action=click&module=Search&region=searchResults%230&version=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquery.nytimes.com%2Fsearch%2Fsite search%2F%23%2Fthe%2Bscorpion%2B1968%2Bsubmarine%2 Fsince1851%2Fallresults%2F1%2Fallauthors%2Fnewest% 2F), said in a telephone interview. “But you need to begin with the right people.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/science/earth/us-navy-strategists-have-a-long-history-of-finding-the-lost.html?_r=0

[Jimbuna]

I know I'm not unique but I'd really be interested in finding out what really happened and where the plane is.

[Nippelspanner]

I know I'm not unique but I'd really be interested in finding out what really happened and where the plane is.
I start to wonder if we will ever know...

[Skybird]

A British or American book just released claims that the airliner was shot down - possibly by accident - during a joint Thai-American military exercise, and that the search was intentionally diverted to the South-West to cover it.

A worker on an oil rig also has seen, so he claims, the plane going down, confirming that woman on sailboat's report. He said the object he saw falling form the sky was burning in full flames. He also said that workers on that oil rig know the regular flight routes due to the contrails in the sky at day - this object was way off those routes. He filed a report to his boss - and got fired one day later and immediately sent off that oil rig.

It is interesting that the sailing women and now this worker both are in line with estimated positions and courses as plotted by last known, published radar contacts. While many will immediately claim "conspiracy theory!", an attempt to cover a possible intentional or accidental shooting down does explain the hilarious manuvering of the Thai officials, their uninspired attitude towards organising the search and the press campaign better, and why the search was diverted so far off last known courses and radar contacts. It also would explain why the woman, after she made herself known that late, was not seriously investigated in details of her report, and why the worker on the oil rig got fired.

That there have been military exercises in an area which MH370 must have passed through, to travel from last confirmed position to the area where these witnesses roughly point at, seems to be confirmed.

Rumours that the plane even was intentionally shot down, had popped up very early, if you go back in time to the beginning of the story unfolding.

[Nippelspanner]

Not a big fan of conspiracy theories... but not every theory is just a theory and that sounds at least... interesting.

[Catfish]

Ah, you mean they thought there might be a Taliban chief aboard the plane, and shot it down with killing the 'rest' of the passengers as collateral damage' ?
Was there a wedding party, on board ? :-?


Seriously (though the above happened, only with drones and w/o passenger jet), wouldn't you think this would be made public - even today i think they would offically admit an error ?
Having shot down a civilian plane in error has been admitted earlier, wasn't there that Korean 747 some decade ago ?
I mean all else would be too atrocious and bad for the countries involved, if this truth came out - better stand the ground and admit it.
And organise precautions that this will never happen again. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Although the idea makes sense - more than much else beimg speculated on from official side - , there are many If's involved.

Also, two countries would have been involved, according to the author, the US and Thailand. Even any US reaction to an accidental decision should not be taken for granted, no matter how reasonable it seems to assume the US would do this or that - and Thailand does many things very differently than the West anyway.

[Admiral Halsey]

Ah, you mean they thought there might be a Taliban chief aboard the plane, and shot it down with killing the 'rest' of the passengers as collateral damage' ?
Was there a wedding party, on board ? :-?


Seriously (though the above happened, only with drones and w/o passenger jet), wouldn't you think this would be made public - even today i think they would offically admit an error ?
Having shot down a civilian plane in error has been admitted earlier, wasn't there that Korean 747 some decade ago ?
I mean all else would be too atrocious and bad for the countries involved, if this truth came out - better stand the ground and admit it.
And organise precautions that this will never happen again. :hmmm:

Well that was the Soviet shootdown and they did try to cover it up at first Then you've got Iran Air Flight 655 which the US shot down.(Don't know if it was admitted at first or not though.) I'd say that it's quite possible that they'd be trying to cover this up if they shot it down.

[Flamebatter90]

Here's an interview of Inmarsat's vice president of satellite operations Mark Dickinson, explaining how and why they think MH370 is where they are searching for it:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/27/world/asia/mh370-is-inmarsat-right-quest-analysis/index.html

[BossMark]

I'm thinking of sending my wife out to Malaysia to help find missing flight MH370.

She has an extraordinary ability to bring stuff up that every other sod forgot about months ago.

[Jimbuna]

^ That won't be possible.

[August]

Maybe it's a cause or symptom of the phantom page bug... :hmmm:

[Stealhead]

(Don't know if it was admitted at first or not though.)

Officially no but the US government did pay settlement money to each passengers family so one of those we did not but we did deals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[guntherprien]

I heard a BBC radio 4 interview with the CEO of the company who manufacture the black box recorder type apparatus,and he said that each BB sends an entirely unique signal,unrepeatable in this world.
This signal was reported to be picked up ?
It either was or wasn't.
No mistake.
To all senior guys who have denigrated my posts:Either put up or shut up.
You have no respect from me until you shut your stupid mouths and do some research.
Forget your rhetoric of disasembling my posts sentence by sentence,
thinking you look good,you look like a muppet.
You tell me why this CEO is wrong,bearing in mind this guy is a professional businessman,and you are a mere non entity posting on a submarine www.
Go for it,and don't be shy.:arrgh!:

[Sailor Steve]

I heard a BBC radio 4 interview with the CEO of the company who manufacture the black box recorder type apparatus,and he said that each BB sends an entirely unique signal,unrepeatable in this world.
Can you give us a link to this interview? A transcript? Does he back up your claim that the government is covering it up? If not, what is it worth?

To all senior guys who have denigrated my posts:Either put up or shut up.
If I was brand new here I'd still be pointing out that you have yet to put anything up. You make a lot of claims but you still have shown nothing.

You have no respect from me until you shut your stupid mouths and do some research.
What research would you have me do? You made the claim; it's your job to prove it, or at least provide evidence. So far you have failed to do that. So, why would I want your respect?

Forget your rhetoric of disasembling my posts sentence by sentence,
I tried, but when you keep saying several different things in one post you make it kind of hard.

thinking you look good,you look like a muppet.
Again, having shown nothing you return to insults. It's okay, I've been insulted by far better than you.

You tell me why this CEO is wrong,bearing in mind this guy is a professional businessman,and you are a mere non entity posting on a submarine www.
Go for it,and don't be shy.:arrgh!:
First you need to actually show us what he said. What you say means nothing without proof. You are also a non-entity posting on a submarine www, so your word is worth nothing.

Also, as I said before, at least I let people here know who I really am, and don't hide behind the anonymity of the keyboard.

Your turn. :sunny:

[TarJak]

I heard a BBC radio 4 interview with the CEO of the company who manufacture the black box recorder type apparatus,and he said that each BB sends an entirely unique signal,unrepeatable in this world.
This signal was reported to be picked up ?
It either was or wasn't.
No mistake.
To all senior guys who have denigrated my posts:Either put up or shut up.
You have no respect from me until you shut your stupid mouths and do some research.
Forget your rhetoric of disasembling my posts sentence by sentence,
thinking you look good,you look like a muppet.
You tell me why this CEO is wrong,bearing in mind this guy is a professional businessman,and you are a mere non entity posting on a submarine www.
Go for it,and don't be shy.:arrgh!:

Lose the keys to your meds cabinet did you?

If that's what the CEO of whatever the company is said, then he'd most likely correct.

How that interview relates to your RN mate intimating a coverup of an RN sub picking up said signal from the other side of an ocean, I've no idea. I've also no idea whether the signals reported to have been picked up months ago by Chinese and Australian ships were actually from the FDR or CVR.

Your name calling is just childish.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/mh370-emirates-head-has-doubts-about-investigation-a-996212.html

I think the plane either had a secret cargo/passenger that some intelligence agency did not want to reach its destination - or we will see this plane again in the future: when it flies into some big, huge building with many people in it.

So, a government plot or a terrorist coup, to me that are the prime suspects amongst all possible theories.

[ikalugin]

Considering that Ukranian media had accurate passenger data before the airline HQ had it (and they are not the best journalists shall we say), I think there are some grounds to think about a conspiracy here.

[Skybird]

That are TWO different incidents, ikalugin. There have been TWO Malaysian Airlines planes strckc by disaster this year. MH17 (Ukraine) and MH370 (SE Asia, Pacific).

[ikalugin]

My bad.

[August]

First you need to actually show us what he said. What you say means nothing without proof. You are also a non-entity posting on a submarine www, so your word is worth nothing.

This ^

[Skybird]

First ikalugin, now August. Guys, you really need to realise the time gap in this thread. ;) Its over two months... The interview with the head of Emirates that I posted in #646, is the restart point in here.

[Dread Knot]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/mh370-emirates-head-has-doubts-about-investigation-a-996212.html

I think the plane either had a secret cargo/passenger that some intelligence agency did not want to reach its destination - or we will see this plane again in the future: when it flies into some big, huge building with many people in it.

So, a government plot or a terrorist coup, to me that are the prime suspects amongst all possible theories.

With all due respect to Sir Tim Clark, he is not, and never has been, a pilot. If you read the interview, he also doesn't reveal anything that we don't already know or at least strongly suspect. He's not presenting any new information or theory here, he's mostly criticizing the investigation for not being open and sharing all of the information.

I think most experts agree that it is likely that MH370 was under control all the way until the end and someone or something disabled the tracking systems. I just don't think we'll ever know what really happened unless the aircraft is found.

[Skybird]

What you say does not devalue what Tim Clark says, Dread Knot. His remarks on the transponder and ACARS are spot on, and technically correct. I also would assume that he gets his information on what technically is possible onboard a 777 and what not, from first hand experts.

It's not just any third world bush flyer club he is chairman off. It's Emirates, one of the biggest and most major players there are.

That he keeps sticking the finger in the wound, is not a bad thing either.

[August]

First ikalugin, now August. Guys, you really need to realise the time gap in this thread. ;) Its over two months... The interview with the head of Emirates that I posted in #646, is the restart point in here.

Well I was just commenting on the accuracy of Steves observation that the guy who denigrates us for being internet non-entities is himself an internet non entity. More so since unlike Steve, myself, you, and many others here on this board there is nobody else who has actually met this person in real life yet we're supposed to respect his word? :dead:

But as for your conspiracy theory I don't buy it. The ocean is a big place and unless they can produce some sort of hard evidence it just sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

[Mr Quatro]

I put this over in the MH-317 thread, but it belongs here, but I couldn't find this one due to listed as B-777.

Here it is twice in the right thread, but really could be both, which is too hard for even my faith to accept.

I don't think God is into shooting down passenger planes to prove His point of don't mess with Israel, but there is a point to be made that the God of Israel was not to pleased with Hamas terror cell groups getting there training in Malaysia.

Hamas terrorists received training in Malaysia and Gaza to infiltrate Israel by air to kidnap and murder Israelis

Quote:
In 2010, the prisoner was enlisted into a special force sent to Malaysia for parachute training, in preparation for a cross-border kidnapping attack (http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/hamas-kidnappings-constant-threat-israel/) on Israel. He and ten other terrorists from across Gaza spent a week receiving training in Malaysia.
After returning to Gaza, the cell was given additional weapons training. They were warned to maintain secrecy, and not to reveal details of their Malaysian training to anyone

https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07...ning-malaysia/ (https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07/31/hamas-cell-received-advanced-training-malaysia/)

Yes the article was written the end of July last year, but is just now chronicling the actual truth that Hamas is training in Malaysia.

What if MH-370 was an act of God and a sign to leave Israel alone?

I know it sounds strange, but God has a way of getting his message across to His followers and His enemies.

[Betonov]

It seems god is a moron

[Nippelspanner]

It seems god is a moron
It took you that long to realize this? :03:

[Dowly]

God's just misunderstood.

[Betonov]

God's just misunderstood.

Miss interpreted.
His god kills civilians and downs planes. It is a moron.
My neighbours god doesn't kill civilians.
Hell, even my god doesn't kill civilians.

[August]

Quit blaming God for the actions of men.

[Dowly]

Quit blaming God for the actions of men.
Easier to blame God, he always forgives.
(Sucker! :O:)

[Buddahaid]

Easier to blame God, he always forgives.
(Sucker! :O:)

Ah, but if you believe in God, He(She, It, Whatever) must be to blame as the pilot in command and ultimately responsible. It's easier than looking for real answers to what we don't understand, or what we choose to ignore, or looking in the mirror. But don't we make God in our own image?

[Dowly]

I dont believe in god. But I can still blame him/her/it, right? Just in case he/she/it is real, right? :D

As for who made who in their image, it used to be "God made use in his image", these days it definitely is "We made God in our image".

[Aktungbby]

It seems god is a moron

It seems god is also an oxymoron! If there is a god? would he allow this...and if there isn't a god, Homer could never have written the Illiad...:hmmm:where the gods hold a beauty contest with Helen as the prize....and really little about the format (generally greed clothed with some nationalistic missionary zeal-Putin??) has changed in 5000 years of recorded history.:/\\!! http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Images/ZeusMountIda.jpgZeus watching the Trojan war from nearby Mt. Ida...he must have loved Gallipoli as well!:03:

[Buddahaid]

I dont believe in god. But I can still blame him/her/it, right? Just in case he/she/it is real, right? :D

As for who made who in their image, it used to be "God made use in his image", these days it definitely is "We made God in our image".

Works both ways doesn't it?

[Tchocky]

For sake of balance and symbolism I feel this post should at least mention the Devil.

[Aktungbby]

Works both ways doesn't it?

Hence an oxymoron:D

[Oberon]

Drama on another Malaysian airways flight which had to circle two hours to burn fuel before RTBing in Kuala Lumpur. MH179 is the flights number. Apparently it's landed safely and parked up now, no idea why it returned so soon after take-off. :hmmm:

[Dowly]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
This thread was great,
now it is down loo.

[Jeff-Groves]

I put this over in the MH-317 thread, but it belongs here, but I couldn't find this one due to listed as B-777.

Here it is twice in the right thread, but really could be both, which is too hard for even my faith to accept.

I don't think God is into shooting down passenger planes to prove His point of don't mess with Israel, but there is a point to be made that the God of Israel was not to pleased with Hamas terror cell groups getting there training in Malaysia.

Hamas terrorists received training in Malaysia and Gaza to infiltrate Israel by air to kidnap and murder Israelis

Quote:
In 2010, the prisoner was enlisted into a special force sent to Malaysia for parachute training, in preparation for a cross-border kidnapping attack (http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/hamas-kidnappings-constant-threat-israel/) on Israel. He and ten other terrorists from across Gaza spent a week receiving training in Malaysia.
After returning to Gaza, the cell was given additional weapons training. They were warned to maintain secrecy, and not to reveal details of their Malaysian training to anyone

https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07...ning-malaysia/ (https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07/31/hamas-cell-received-advanced-training-malaysia/)

Yes the article was written the end of July last year, but is just now chronicling the actual truth that Hamas is training in Malaysia.

What if MH-370 was an act of God and a sign to leave Israel alone?

I know it sounds strange, but God has a way of getting his message across to His followers and His enemies.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Air%20Rifles/Tinfoil-hat.gif~original

Just saying.
:o

[Mr Quatro]

If it was God then the insurance companies wouldn't have to pay now would they.

Read your policy on your home, "Not covered by an act of God"

[Oberon]

This sounds like a job for the Big Yin:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512RX3MHV2L.jpg

[Buddahaid]

If it was God then the insurance companies wouldn't have to pay now would they.

Read your policy on your home, "Not covered by an act of God"

One would have to prove God exists in order to use that disclaimer beyond what it's used for now. However I think you were making a joke.

[August]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Air%20Rifles/Tinfoil-hat.gif~original

Just saying.
:o

Is it necessary to mock someones religious beliefs?

[Jeff-Groves]

Is it necessary to mock someones religious beliefs?
No. Not necessary as in 'is it needed'.
I volunteered as in 'You opened this can'.
:D

[Gargamel]

When Somebody uses religious arguments in a discussion/debate based around provable facts, then we might as well include aliens or the kraken as possible causes to this mystery.

[Nippelspanner]

When Somebody uses religious arguments in a discussion/debate based around provable facts, then we might as well include aliens or the kraken as possible causes to this mystery.
Stop mocking my religious beliefs by not mentioning the almighty Spaghetti-monster, thank you. :shifty:
Everyone knows the Kraken God is nonsense, Aliens too, come on.

[August]

When Somebody uses religious arguments in a discussion/debate based around provable facts, then we might as well include aliens or the kraken as possible causes to this mystery.

So in other words one might as well be a dick about it? There is no discussion or debate when one side is being constantly being mocked by the other.

[Jeff-Groves]

I was having a fruit salad for dinner when I posted that.
Well, it was mostly Grapes actually.
OK. All Grapes.
Fermented Grapes.
I was having Wine for dinner.
And I prefer 'Richard'. 'Dick' is just rude.
:hmph:

[August]

:hmph:

My point was that there was no need for it.

[Jeff-Groves]

And the fact I said NOTHING about God or his beliefs AFTER others did you single me out?
:har:

Read the tinfoil hat stuff and change God to CIA. Makes as much sense.
:hmmm:
I wasn't the only one having Fruit salad for dinner was I?
:D

[Sailor Steve]

There is no discussion or debate when one side is being constantly being mocked by the other.
When one proposes one's beliefs in a discussion about people's beliefs, you are right. In this case someone expressed the opinion that God sides with Israel, and tacitly approves of the shooting down of civilians just to make a point. Should that be part of a discussion about the fate of an aircraft full of people?

Was the mockery against the member's beliefs, or against a claim that God involved Himself in the shooting down of the airliner? If the first, then I agree. If the second, then maybe it's deserved, being no different than any other conspiracy theory.




That said, I would remind everybody about Subsim's rules on name-calling and derision.

[Jeff-Groves]

derision?
I thought that was half of General Topics purpose!
:o
:har:

[Gargamel]

So in other words one might as well be a dick about it? There is no discussion or debate when one side is being constantly being mocked by the other.

No, far from it.

No disrespect was meant by me at all. And I doubt others meant it as well.

It's just enter a debate in the manner that they did, you expect a little blowback.

[Jeff-Groves]

What's "being mocked" anyway? Is that like "Entity mocked"?
:hmmm:

[mapuc]

So far no-one can give a 100 % explanation to what have happen to this Malaysia airliner. Therefor - every proposal is good as anyone

Everyone has his or her belief regarding this topic.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

Everyone has his or her belief regarding this topic.

Markus
Right! And I believe I'll have another Fruit Salad.
:D

[August]

Was the mockery against the member's beliefs, or against a claim that God involved Himself in the shooting down of the airliner? If the first, then I agree. If the second, then maybe it's deserved, being no different than any other conspiracy theory.

Obviously I believed it to be the former but am willing to concede that I might have been wrong. Maybe I jumped the gun because it's become the norm for these smartass jpegs to be posted whenever someone mentions God and it's getting irritating enough for me to say something about it now and then.

As for his point about the Malaysian Airliner I still say we should quit blaming God for the actions of men. I'll extend that to include blaming God for human bad (or good) luck too. Whatever bought MH-370 down be it terrorists or just a bad window seal I believe is not at the command of God nor is it Gods responsibility to protect us from injury and death. That is our responsibility. It is the price of freedom.

[Oberon]

How about we compromise and blame Allah, then everyone can be happy. :yep:

[CCIP]

How about we compromise and blame Allah, then everyone can be happy. :yep:

To be fair, Allah is the same Abrahamic God that Christians and Jews worship, aka Yahweh, aka the Father - the only difference is in the intermediary for the presently-active covenant with Him.

But you can always blame whatever you want, doesn't change the fact that planes go down sometimes for all sorts of reasons... or none at all.

[Aktungbby]

How about we compromise and blame Allah, then everyone can be happy. :yep:

:rotfl2:How 'bout we just blame our respective 'third-man syndromes' and end this miserable debate! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Man_factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Man_factor) and get back to on-thread clear-eyed polite debate for which :subsim: is usually held in high regard??!!:yeah:

[CCIP]

This unfortunately reminds me of all our lovely debates with The Third Man here a few years ago :haha:

[Oberon]

This unfortunately reminds me of all our lovely debates with The Third Man here a few years ago :haha:

Ugh, thanks for the memories, I'd just managed to suppress them. :O: :haha:

[MH]

I put this over in the MH-317 thread, but it belongs here, but I couldn't find this one due to listed as B-777.

Here it is twice in the right thread, but really could be both, which is too hard for even my faith to accept.

I don't think God is into shooting down passenger planes to prove His point of don't mess with Israel, but there is a point to be made that the God of Israel was not to pleased with Hamas terror cell groups getting there training in Malaysia.

Hamas terrorists received training in Malaysia and Gaza to infiltrate Israel by air to kidnap and murder Israelis

Quote:
In 2010, the prisoner was enlisted into a special force sent to Malaysia for parachute training, in preparation for a cross-border kidnapping attack (http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/hamas-kidnappings-constant-threat-israel/) on Israel. He and ten other terrorists from across Gaza spent a week receiving training in Malaysia.
After returning to Gaza, the cell was given additional weapons training. They were warned to maintain secrecy, and not to reveal details of their Malaysian training to anyone

https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07...ning-malaysia/ (https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07/31/hamas-cell-received-advanced-training-malaysia/)

Yes the article was written the end of July last year, but is just now chronicling the actual truth that Hamas is training in Malaysia.

What if MH-370 was an act of God and a sign to leave Israel alone?

I know it sounds strange, but God has a way of getting his message across to His followers and His enemies.
Yeah… always blame the Jews or CIA.

[Mr Quatro]

So far no-one can give a 100 % explanation to what have happen to this Malaysia airliner. Therefor - every proposal is good as anyone

Everyone has his or her belief regarding this topic.

Markus

Well said ... give that man a lighthouse.

I just wanted to add my theory based on this is the 21st century, but the God of the bible was alive and well in the days of Abraham who appeared to Abraham in the book of Genesis 18:17-33 (NCV)

This is the story of God promising Abraham a child of promise to him and his aged wife Sarah, but then he goes on to say that he has heard bad things about Sodom and that he is going to go check it out. The Muslims believe in God and trace their beginnings back to Abraham also. These two religions have been fighting each other for a long time. A God that can destroy two cities can take out two airplanes if it would be a sign to their prophets.

Just another theory to add to the growing number of reasons why.

Abraham’s Bargain with God
The Lord said, “Should I tell Abraham what I am going to do now? Abraham’s children will certainly become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. I have chosen him so he would command his children and his descendants to live the way the Lord wants them to, to live right and be fair. Then I, the Lord, will give Abraham what I promised him.”
Then the Lord said, “I have heard many complaints against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. They are very evil.I will go down and see if they are as bad as I have heard. If not, I will know.”
So the men turned and went toward Sodom, but Abraham stood there before the Lord. Then Abraham approached him and asked, “Do you plan to destroy the good people along with the evil ones? What if there are fifty good people in that city? Will you still destroy it? Surely you will save the city for the fifty good people living there. Surely you will not destroy the good people along with the evil ones; then they would be treated the same. You are the judge of all the earth. Won’t you do what is right?”
The Lord said, “If I find fifty good people in the city of Sodom, I will save the whole city because of them.”
Then Abraham said, “Though I am only dust and ashes, I have been brave to speak to the Lord. What if there are only forty-five good people in the city? Will you destroy the whole city for the lack of five good people?”
The Lord said, “If I find forty-five there, I will not destroy the city.”
Again Abraham said to him, “If you find only forty good people there, will you destroy the city?”
The Lord said, “If I find forty, I will not destroy it.”
Then Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me, but let me ask you this. If you find only thirty good people in the city, will you destroy it?”
He said, “If I find thirty good people there, I will not destroy the city.”
Then Abraham said, “I have been brave to speak to the Lord. But what if there are twenty good people in the city?”
He answered, “If I find twenty there, I will not destroy the city.”
Then Abraham said,
“Lord, please don’t be angry with me, but let me bother you thisone last time.
What if you find ten there?”
He said, “If I find ten there, I will not destroy it.”
When the Lord finished speaking to Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

This is why the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims fear God ... His decisions are final.

[Jeff-Groves]

Huh?
:o

[Nippelspanner]

This is why the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims fear God ... His decisions are final.
Meh......

[Jeff-Groves]

Meh......

You be all "being mocking" now?
:har:

[Nippelspanner]

You be all "being mocking" now?
:har:
I do indeed kinda feel insulted/mocked/whatever, but I edited what I said before,
sometimes it is wiser to stay silent...

[Jeff-Groves]

sometimes it is wiser to stay silent...
and enjoy the Fruit Salad.
:D
:03:

[Nippelspanner]

and enjoy the Fruit Salad.
:D
:03:
I wish I had "fruit salad" right now to distract my mind from this thread indeed. :doh:

[Oberon]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cb/cb4c8bac17b57133c77e5e1293461d79901d2e01e559bc9aeb 0fcde8701e8850.jpg

[Jeff-Groves]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cb/cb4c8bac17b57133c77e5e1293461d79901d2e01e559bc9aeb 0fcde8701e8850.jpg

Nope. Just being cheeky.
:D

[Aktungbby]

http://www.businessinsider.com/oceanographic-model-predicted-a-year-ago-mh370-would-end-up-where-debris-has-now-been-found-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/oceanographic-model-predicted-a-year-ago-mh370-would-end-up-where-debris-has-now-been-found-2015-7) A detailed oceanographic map has surfaced that predicted 12 months ago that any debris from the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 could wash up where a large piece of aircraft wing (and possible luggage) has been discovered on Reunion Island near Madagascar in the Indian Ocean. http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/55b9df64371d22a10e8baf91-1165-729/mh370%20map%20skitched.jpg

[CCIP]

Actually the map suggests something quite different to me - if the plane crashed where that map suggested, we wouldn't expect to be seeing the debris washing up there for another few months - it's only been 16 months, not 18-24. To me that suggests that their search location is probably wrong.

[August]

Actually the map suggests something quite different to me - if the plane crashed where that map suggested, we wouldn't expect to be seeing the debris washing up there for another few months - it's only been 16 months, not 18-24. To me that suggests that their search location is probably wrong.


I think you're right. :yep:

[NeonSamurai]

I think only if the debris started from the blue area. If it started in the green area it would take 12-18 months, and in pink area 6-12 months, for it to reach the island. The map appears to assume the plane crashed in the blue area and projects where it could go from there and how long it could spend in each colored zone.

If I remember correctly the search location for the plane is in the pink/green area.

[August]

I think only if the debris started from the blue area. If it started in the green area it would take 12-18 months, and in pink area 6-12 months, for it to reach the island. The map appears to assume the plane crashed in the blue area and projects where it could go from there and how long it could spend in each colored zone.

If I remember correctly the search location for the plane is in the pink/green area.

I think the starting point is that square box at the extreme western edge of the blue area.

[Torplexed]

However many parts are found washed up in flotsam, retracing their drift can only point to the same general area of the ocean where flight reconstruction said it had gone down. And that is still a mighty large area. It gains little in finding the wreckage or the flight recorders. But this must confirm to anyone suspecting conspiracy, and the poor families of passengers, that the plane really did go down in the Indian Ocean, and isn't concealed in some hidden under-mountain hanger.

[Oberon]

But this must confirm to anyone suspecting conspiracy, and the poor families of passengers, that the plane really did go down in the Indian Ocean, and isn't concealed in some hidden under-mountain hanger.

Oh, the conspiracy lot will just say that they smashed a section of aircraft off and dropped it in the ocean to fool people. Never underestimate the leaps that some people are willing to make in pursuit of a good tale. :03:

[NeonSamurai]

I think the starting point is that square box at the extreme western edge of the blue area.

Yes I believe your right. But that is not where the search area is. The search area is in the northern part of the green region almost due West of Perth. If the belief that the plane landed in that area is true, then its reasonable for that discovered part to have reached Ascension in 12-18 months, assuming the map is accurate.

Of course the part may have nothing to do with this flight to begin with.

[Torplexed]

As if there was much doubt remaining it looks like the debris is confirmed as from Flight 370.

[Jimbuna]

I don't see this as any form of closure for the families other than confirmation the plane came down in the Indian Ocean.

[CCIP]

So now that French investigators officially confirmed that the flaperon part is from MH370, its condition may suggest something disturbing about how the flight ended up in the ocean: http://www.inquisitr.com/2391902/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-plane-landed/

[Oberon]

So now that French investigators officially confirmed that the flaperon part is from MH370, its condition may suggest something disturbing about how the flight ended up in the ocean: http://www.inquisitr.com/2391902/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-plane-landed/

If it did land intact in the ocean then why didn't they deploy rafts? I mean it wouldn't have sunk immediately, even in rough seas.
One can only hope that this theory is incorrect and that the passengers were already dead by the time it hit the water.

[Aktungbby]

:hmmm:My worst case scenario is that Zaharie Ahmed Shah, the pilot or Fariq Ab Hamid, the first officer "put his faith in God" as with Egypt Air's first officer a few years back and commandeered his own aircraft during the toilet break of the other officer in a copycat takeover, flown for hours, out over the Indian Ocean then ditched with all aboard. I'm not seeing how the phones would be collected in a depressure situation by any of the cockpit crew. I know the cockpit has it's own separate oxygen supply from the cabin overhead deploy masks. Further investigation of the cockpit crew would be useful perhaps...:hmmm: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/mar/16/duncancampbell (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/mar/16/duncancampbell)
:damn: http://www.theweek.co.uk/mh370/57641/mh370-plane-was-deliberately-flown-into-sea-says-investigator (http://www.theweek.co.uk/mh370/57641/mh370-plane-was-deliberately-flown-into-sea-says-investigator)
The rogue pilot theory holds that somebody at MH370’s controls could have glided the aircraft for up to a hundred miles once the fuel ran out, well beyond the boundaries of the search zone, which is already almost the size of England.
Is is also believed that the Australian officials are not limiting the potential rogue pilots to the two Malaysia Airlines flight crew flying MH370, leaving open the possibility that a third individual entered the flight deck and took control.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/645028/Malaysia-Airlines-flight-MH370-deliberately-crashed-pilots-Australian-investigators (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/645028/Malaysia-Airlines-flight-MH370-deliberately-crashed-pilots-Australian-investigators) http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/flight-468100.jpg

[Aktungbby]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1985825/captains-bathroom-visit-could-have-doomed-malaysia-airlines-flight-when-cabin-pressure-failure-hit/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1985825/captains-bathroom-visit-could-have-doomed-malaysia-airlines-flight-when-cabin-pressure-failure-hit/) https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/nintchdbpict0002669672341.jpg?w=960 (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1985825/captains-bathroom-visit-could-have-doomed-malaysia-airlines-flight-when-cabin-pressure-failure-hit/#)A large piece of debris found in Tanzania has been confirmed as a part of a wing flap from missing Malaysia Airlines passenger jet MH370 !

[Aktungbby]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/18/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-australia-says-cost-didnt-force-suspension-of-search (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/18/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-australia-says-cost-didnt-force-suspension-of-search)
Australia’s transport minister has said cost was not a factor in the suspension of the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 (https://www.theguardian.com/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370) and any decision to renew an underwater effort rests primarily with the Malaysian government.
Darren Chester and his counterparts in Malaysia and China announced the decision to suspend efforts to find the plane (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/17/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-search-called-off) in a tripartite announcement on Tuesday afternoon, after the completion of the search of a 120,000 sq km area in the southern Indian Ocean.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau had been searching that area – a remote expanse of ocean west of Perth, with waves sometimes between 15 and 20 metres and depths of up to 6km – for nearly two and a half years.
Relatives say more funds should be put into the hunt as ‘planes cannot just be allowed to disappear without a trace’
At a press conference in Melbourne on Wednesday morning, Chester said the ATSB’s mission was at the “cutting edge of science and technology, and tested the limit of human endeavour in a very inhospitable part of the world”.
The decision to suspend the search had not been taken lightly by the governments involved, Chester said, but was consistent with the tripartite resolution in July last year that any extension would depend on “credible new evidence” pointing to the “specific location” of the plane.

[Jimbuna]

Could well be the case that the relatives who lost loved ones will never see closure now.

[August]

Could well be the case that the relatives who lost loved ones will never see closure now.


Could be Jim, but never is a long time. That jet is still out there somewhere and we keep inventing new mapping and searching gadgets that could eventually find it, even if by accident.

[Jimbuna]

Could be Jim, but never is a long time. That jet is still out there somewhere and we keep inventing new mapping and searching gadgets that could eventually find it, even if by accident.

Yes, hopefully one day.

[Mr Quatro]

Yes, hopefully one day.

I think they found it Jim :up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10750765/MH370-missing-plane-black-box-pings-tracked-to-same-point-as-final-half-handshake.html

MH370 missing plane: 'black box pings' tracked to same point as final 'half-handshake'

Friday 23 February 2018


The final unexplained signal emitted by the missing Malaysia Airlines plane was tracked to the same point in the Indian Ocean at which authorities believe they have found the aircraft, it can be revealed.

It is thought that this final "half-handshake" – or satellite contact – could have been the moment at which the plane ran out of fuel and plunged into the Indian Ocean.

As authorities said they were "very close" to finding the plane after detecting more than two hours of underwater signals, The Telegraph learnt that the site coincides with analysis from two weeks ago, which estimated where the final contact occurred.

[Jimbuna]

I think they found it Jim :up:





I certainly hope so because if nothing else it will bring closure for a great many people :yep:

[HW3]

That article is from 2014.

By Jonathan Pearlman in Sydney and Tom Phillips in Shanghai 7:00PM BST 07 Apr 2014

[Mr Quatro]

That article is from 2014.

I thought the photo was from 2014, but the article at the top said today's date :o

Sorry if it was old news :oops:

[HW3]

It makes one wonder why The Telegraph is dragging up old news. I didn't see any new information in the article. It certainly wasn't your fault for posting it Mr Quatro, as the date line at the top made it seem like it was new information. What raised my suspicions was when they talked about signals from the black boxes which usually only last about 120 days, not 4 years.

[mapuc]

What made me a little suspicious is this

What I have learned about those black boxes and the signal it send. It should be good for about 30 days or so(had to look it up to fresh up my memory)

I can see I was wrong the signal is good for 120 days.(HW3 Post above)

Markus

[HW3]

I was going from my faulty memory Markus, and you are right, 30 days is the normal time span.:Kaleun_Salute: