The Scottish Independence thread - Yay or Nay?

[Egan]

Hmmm, been looking at a photo of a pile of votes in the No vote stack in Clackmannanshire, quite clearly Yes votes in the pile.....A little bit worrying.

Allegations of voting fraud in Inverclyde (where the turn out was 87%)

[Egan]

I wouldn't know, my next door neighbour is English.

[Egan]

Bloody immigrants get everywhere don't they:03:


Comin up here, talking all la de da. Gettin sniffy about the weans drinking buckfast WHICH THEY INVENTED! :D

[Egan]

Dan Snow on the Telly. Wish he would declare independence fae the rest of us and bugger aff.

[Egan]

He actually sounds anxious and a bit scared. Wonder if there's a wee team in the back ground going ' thats that Dan snow gadge....callin hisself a historian...he's gettin it.'

[Skybird]

:rotfl2:
http://i.imgur.com/xKYwetu.jpg
Pfffft - imperial system.

They should better hold a vote on going metric.

:D

[Egan]

BBC. As bad as they've been, I just can't watch STV.

Ach, i'm going to bed.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Sounding like a big fat NO.

Welcome back guys. :woot:

[magic452]

Looks like a NO vote.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/19/scotland-independence-referendum-837898067/

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/19/world/europe/scotland-independence-vote/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Magic

[Catfish]

I take it some just could not imagine an independent Scotland. Why change when it always has been that way.

Congrats to Cameron :-?
Good luck with your economy, and leaving the EU with Ukip :hmm2:

[Oberon]

Well, now they need to keep pushing at Westminster in order to get the promises they made delivered, or take another referendum a year or two down the line which will go a completely different way if the Westminster gang don't live up to their promises.
Cameron has said that the Draft Laws on more powers will be published in January...we'll see... :hmmm:

EDIT: Also, bloody fantastic turnout, well done to all Scots, I doubt very much there would be such a turnout in England for anything other than perhaps the next X-factor winner...

[Catfish]

^ yep, respect to 85 percent voters :)

Wait and see what London does now. It was not an easy decision, and the Scots did not treat that lightly –


B.t.w. how is the idea of voting for independence 'managed' ? I mean, who or what states that a country is 'allowed' (w/o revolution ahem) to leave a union; is there a law that they can vote freely every xy years ?

[Aktungbby]

It will be voted down;.... I suspect very strongly that there be insufficient .... to carry the motion.:/\\!!

[MGR1]

Good result and a brilliant turnout overall - 84.59%.:up:

Now it's up to England to decide on the type of devolution it wants as part of the United Kingdom.

Regional, or all England?

Over to you guys....!

Mike.:salute:

[Flamebatter90]

Good to see so many voted. :up:

[Skybird]

Well, there you have it, now they need to live with it - even in the future, whatever the future may bring.

That's the tough part of it.

[Betonov]

Now that London has a brown line in it's underwear, negotiate some nice fat deals about that oil you have up north :arrgh!:

Good choice though

[Skybird]

Now that London has a brown line in it's underwear, negotiate some nice fat deals about that oil you have up north :arrgh!:

Good choice though
Labour socialists will be the first who start trying to soften up their promises, with Tory socialists in a close second. The showdown is over, why now sticking to all your promises? Grass grows slowly, but it grows.

Also, any more rights given to Scotland will be an incentive for England, Wales, to get more special rights as well, even more so since Scotland has more such special privileges already than any other member of the UK.

I forsee that in the coming months and couple of years there will be many weasel races. In the final days of the emergency campaign launched by Cameron, he suddenly made promises that in the past, when negotiating the possibility of a referendum being held, he categorically had ruled out. He turned his neck once already, no reason to assume that he could not turn it once again.

After all they are all just politicians. Don't take them by their words.

But anyhow, that is UKlers issues exclusively, I only follow it with a tourist's curiousity for an exotic event... :woot:

[Oberon]

As soon as Edinburgh declared I went to bed as it was obvious. I agree Westminster must deliver now or else I will vote Yes next time.

Bit of a sore head and a grumpy neighbour who was a Yes activist.

Both your neighbour and quite a few people across Europe I'd wager, lot of places abroad watching with interest, Friesland, Catalonia, probably Bavaria too. :03:

[Jimbuna]

Well, now they need to keep pushing at Westminster in order to get the promises they made delivered, or take another referendum a year or two down the line which will go a completely different way if the Westminster gang don't live up to their promises.
Cameron has said that the Draft Laws on more powers will be published in January...we'll see... :hmmm:

EDIT: Also, bloody fantastic turnout, well done to all Scots, I doubt very much there would be such a turnout in England for anything other than perhaps the next X-factor winner...

Or the English referendum on whether Scotland maintains her current priviledges :O:

Seriously though...a great turnout and one I hope doesn't divide Scotland.

Now Cameron must deliver but it won't be easy because I sense early signs of a revolt amongst his backbenchers.

[Dread Knot]

Now Cameron must deliver but it won't be easy because I sense early signs of a revolt amongst his backbenchers.


Yes, now we see whether Cameron & Co. make good on the promises they've been making.

I'm glad for the present we can throw out the term rUK (rump UK). It never did sound very dignified. :)

[Onkel Neal]

Both your neighbour and quite a few people across Europe I'd wager, lot of places abroad watching with interest, Friesland, Catalonia, probably Bavaria too. :03:


Texas :shucks:

[Wolferz]

Texas :shucks:

Still looking to become an independent country down thar? I'm sure the flag makers are drooling.:DBut, if northern California becomes the state of Jefferson, that'll pop their balloon quick.:haha:

As for Scotland... I wonder who got stabbed in the back and then drawn and quartered this time around?:timeout:

[Jimbuna]

Just don't give us any more Braveheart films....pleeeeeese :)

[Dread Knot]

"Give me Liberty or put me on ice." Sarah Palin's last long shot to become president of something---besides her own fan club. :O:

http://www.akip.org/images/aip-ban2.jpg

[Aktungbby]

Texas :shucks: =Oberon; Both your neighbour and quite a few people across Europe I'd wager, lot of places abroad watching with interest, Friesland, Catalonia, probably Bavaria too.It ain't the Lone Star State for nuthin'! @ Oberon you overlooked a biggie! What amazed me was that if the motion passed, The Shetland Islands prefer to separate from Scotland; And they do have oil! " "A petition of more than 1,000 signatures raised by islanders from Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles calling for a separate referendum on whether they could themselves become independent was rejected last month by the Scottish government, which said it had promised new powers to the three island groups.
The Shetland archipelago, more than 100 miles north of mainland Scotland, has traditionally voted strongly against Scottish independence (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence), in part because of its distinctive history – until the 15th century it was part of Norway and is closer to its west coast than the Scottish capital – in part because the oil industry has made it rich without particular assistance from Edinburgh." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael)

[Lord_magerius]

http://i.imgur.com/vF18o9D.png

[Jimbuna]

Mr Salmond, 59, who has led his party for a total of 20 years, also said there were a "number of eminently qualified and very suitable candidates for leader", although the current deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon, also deputy SNP leader, is seen as a clear frontrunner.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

[Dread Knot]

So who replaces Salmond?

Fish is apparently out. Now where's the Angus beef?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/4659541c4d59b80f2.jpg

[U2222]

So who replaces Salmond?

My money is 100% on Nicola Sturgeon....but then strange things can happen in politics

[Dread Knot]

My money is 100% on Nicola Sturgeon....but then strange things can happen in politics

Great. Another fish. :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

Great. Another fish. :shifty:

LOL :)

[Dread Knot]

LOL :)

In light of Salmond's resignation I can guarantee you there is some copy editor at a Fleet Street broadsheet running to his editor with his genius headline.

SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE SALMOND.

[Rockstar]

Great. Another fish. :shifty:

and a bottom feeder at that :D

[Jimbuna]

So Alex Salmond was right after all, Scotland CAN still use the pound after September 18th.

[Dread Knot]

and a bottom feeder at that :D

They're probably all feeling pretty gutted today. :)

[nikimcbee]

Well, that's too bad about Scotland. I really wanted to see Jim in a kilt.

It's probably for the best though, Steed would have ruined it anyway.:hmmm:

[nikimcbee]

http://cinemattire.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/rr4.jpeg?w=650 (http://cinemattire.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/rr4.jpeg)

This is the Tooooooooooooon!

[BossMark]

Thank god its all done and dusted, well apart from electing a new first minister after Jabba the hut resigned earlier today.

[MGR1]

Well, now the new "Big Question" is what sort of devolution England decides to adopt.:hmmm:

It'll be interesting to see what happens, power devolved/restored to the counties and cities, or a centralised English Parliament at Westminster?

It seems that Labour and the Lib-Dems generally favour the former, whilst the Tories and UKIP would like the latter.

Mike.

[BossMark]

Alex Salmond has retired from politics.

Just remember Alex, there's always a welcoming place for you south of the border.

France.

[Oberon]

Well, now the new "Big Question" is what sort of devolution England decides to adopt.:hmmm:

It'll be interesting to see what happens, power devolved/restored to the counties and cities, or a centralised English Parliament at Westminster?

It seems that Labour and the Lib-Dems generally favour the former, whilst the Tories and UKIP would like the latter.

Mike.

As much as I hate both the Tories and UKIP I'd probably go with the centralised Parliament at Westminster. Otherwise things are going to get too disorganised at the county level, there'll be plenty of pass the buck (let's raise taxes to drive the poor out of Essex into Suffolk, who will then drive them to Norfolk, who will then drive them into the North Sea) and all kinds of nonsense. Of course, that kind of thing happens already but on a smaller scale, and in a country which is pretty small already, chopping it up into smaller bits just doesn't make sense. In a nation like America, maybe, but not in England.

[Oberon]

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10665897_10154592238630693_8339133084757758500_n.j pg?oh=b092fb9d55e419df74387b6ff4c4f301&oe=54CED9C9

[Oberon]

Disorder reported in Glasgow...


...but it is a Friday night... :03:

[Herr-Berbunch]

Come on folks, there's a whole host of Salmond memes out there for our enjoyment...

http://i.imgur.com/UomhEcy.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AV1Frhz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Pvv6nGu.jpg

[Oberon]

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10521231_881100008569184_4195436725522178462_n.jpg ?oh=444494c4011cbedeb635ef5b98540617&oe=548924A2

[BossMark]

So Alex Salmond was right after all, Scotland CAN still use the pound after September 18th

[BossMark]

So Alex Salmond is about to resign, and insiders are tipping Nicola Sturgeon to become new leader of the Scottish First party. I wonder which joker told them that all leaders must be named after fish???

[Catfish]

Or, Sturgeoned (like Salmond)

Or is there a special meaning, like being sturgeoned ? :hmmm:

[STEED]

What is the the matter with the Scots? 300 odd years of Stockholm syndrome, are they so incapable of wiping their own bums without Westminster say so!

[Herr-Berbunch]

Or, Sturgeoned (like Salmond)

Or is there a special meaning, like being sturgeoned ? :hmmm:

Maybe one day it'll be Catfishd?

[Skybird]

What is the the matter with the Scots? 300 odd years of Stockholm syndrome, are they so incapable of wiping their own bums without Westminster say so!
Most people prefer perceived security over freedom. Especially when freedom means they are responsible for themselves. ;)

[Jimbuna]

That's it....until the next generation mature.

[Skybird]

That's it....until the next generation mature.
But does it?

A study some weeks ago showed in germany that a growing amount of young people seek work in state's services to gain civil servant status (cannot be fired, guaranteed income, I add: no taxes [if you think it to the end] ). Life designs where they would be self-responsible, would need to decide themselves and accept the risks, were in decline.

Maturing, as you called it, seems to not convince in attractiveness. The typical German cultural climate and state-submissive mentality does the rest... It's a quite servile mindset, I would say.

The state budget and debt burden says thank you.

[STEED]

That's it....until the next generation mature.

Too busy getting slaughtered on....

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00856/SNA3017BU_280_856255a.jpg

....too give a toss.

[Aktungbby]

Maturing, as you called it, seems to not convince in attractiveness. The typical German cultural climate and state-submissive mentality does the rest... It's a quite servile mindset, I would say. The state budget and debt burden says thank you.

Been goin' downhill since 9AD.:O: http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-6075-galleryV9-ohny.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo-gallery-the-myth-of-hermann-the-german-fotostrecke-45775-2.html)ArminiusBBY

[Eichhörnchen]

So Alex Salmond is about to resign, and insiders are tipping Nicola Sturgeon to become new leader of the Scottish First party. I wonder which joker told them that all leaders must be named after fish???

Alfie Bass for First Minister...

[em2nought]

Most people prefer perceived security over freedom. Especially when freedom means they are responsible for themselves. ;)

Maybe WWI & WWII culled too many of the brave, and their progeny, leaving a population with a higher "wuss" percentage. :06:

[Skybird]

Maybe WWI & WWII culled too many of the brave, and their progeny, leaving a population with a higher "wuss" percentage. :06:

Maybe, maybe not, maybe it is more about who won and who got defeated, and maybe it is also about other factors. Sometimes the differences in mentalities between people from different nations, is stunning.

[Skybird]

Been goin' downhill since 9AD.:O: http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-6075-galleryV9-ohny.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo-gallery-the-myth-of-hermann-the-german-fotostrecke-45775-2.html)ArminiusBBY
Hehe, Germans today have less to do with the Germanic ethnicity of that time than one would assume. We are more Roman (and in Eastern parts Slavic) than Germanic today. :) Also, our culture owes much more to Greece and Rome, than to the Germanic tribes.

I always must giggle when seeing in a movie the cult the Nazis made about our "Germanic roots". It's a bit like in this Brüller :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV9gEaVj1JM

P.S.
Finally, those Germanicos back then paid heavily. Recent archeologic findings show that the Romans returned to Germania for sure, and pushed a military campaign for revenge much further into the Northern territories than was previously assumed. Indeed it seems now as if they have driven a real long dent into the Germanic forest for sure, and with strong force. Anything else would have contradicted Roman military mentality anyway, they simply were not the kind of people throwing away their weapons and flee and never come back when they got a blamage delivered to them. So the argument that they were too afraid to return after that defeat, never held much flesh on its bones anyway.

[STEED]

http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-6075-galleryV9-ohny.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo-gallery-the-myth-of-hermann-the-german-fotostrecke-45775-2.html)

And here is tonight's battle scores

Filthy Germanic barbarian hooligans, 1.
Italian battle harden veteran army, 0.

And that concludes tonight's battle scores..

[Betonov]

Maybe WWI & WWII culled too many of the brave, and their progeny, leaving a population with a higher "wuss" percentage. :06:

Or maybe the two conflicts showed them that much more can be achieved by sticking together

[nikimcbee]

England stands down their elite paratrooper invasion force to seize the Scottish oil.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7397937152/hFF52297C/

[nikimcbee]

New Ulm has some great Czech restaurants. :/\\k:

[Aktungbby]

Hehe, Germans today have less to do with the Germanic ethnicity of that time than one would assume.

And here is tonight's battle scores
Filthy Germanic barbarian hooligans, 1.
Italian battle harden veteran army, 0.

And that concludes tonight's battle scores..

And to wash it all down properly! From New Ulm Minnesota where that statue and the oldest state Brewery are located: http://growlermag.com/wp-content/uploads/SchellsArminiusCan.jpeg

[Jimbuna]

And here is tonight's battle scores

Filthy Germanic barbarian hooligans, 1.
Italian battle harden veteran army, 0.

And that concludes tonight's battle scores..

Which battlefield? Glasgow or Edinburgh? :O:

[STEED]

Which battlefield? Glasgow or Edinburgh? :O:

Not them, those battlefields are the on going battle of the drunks. :har:

[Jimbuna]

Salmond isn't planning on going anywhere far away.

The first minister of Scotland said he was not going away and planned to "be part of the political process in Scotland if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29300775

[MGR1]

Not them, those battlefields are the on going battle of the drunks. :har:

In Friday's case with a not-so-nice serving of sectarianism on the side. :down: Interestingly it wasn't the Nationalists that caused the trouble, it was the Ulster Loyalist wannabe's, probably with Rangers FC's Blue Brigade at it's core. Glasgow has a very large cultural connection with Northern Ireland due to economic migration in the 19th Century. Hence the Protestant/Catholic split with Rangers and Celtic.

Salmond isn't planning on going anywhere far away.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29300775

Stood to reason, Jim. He only ever announced he was stepping down as First Minister and leader of the SNP, not that he was leaving politics altogether.

It would do well for Westminster not to underestimate him. He's stepped down as leader before and done a come back.:hmmm:

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

In Friday's case with a not-so-nice serving of sectarianism on the side. :down: Interestingly it wasn't the Nationalists that caused the trouble, it was the Ulster Loyalist wannabe's, probably with Rangers FC's Blue Brigade at it's core. Glasgow has a very large cultural connection with Northern Ireland due to economic migration in the 19th Century. Hence the Protestant/Catholic split with Rangers and Celtic.



Stood to reason, Jim. He only ever announced he was stepping down as First Minister and leader of the SNP, not that he was leaving politics altogether.

It would do well for Westminster not to underestimate him. He's stepped down as leader before and done a come back.:hmmm:

Mike.

Rgr that Mike :yep:

[BossMark]

Barcelona's Nou Camp has been seriously vandalised.

Spanish police have arrested a dyslexic Scotsman.

[Buddahaid]

Meanwhile in Fresno an army of liberation is being trained.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Scottish%20Games/20140920_102014.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_102014.jpg.html)

Getting in training for the long march.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Scottish%20Games/20140920_121022.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_121022.jpg.html)

Even God is lending a hand.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Scottish%20Games/20140920_191020.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_191020.jpg.html)

[Aktungbby]

Meanwhile in Fresno an army of liberation is being trained.
[/URL]

Getting in training for the long march.
[URL="http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_121022.jpg.html"] (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_102014.jpg.html)

Even God is lending a hand.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Scottish%20Games/20140920_191020.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_191020.jpg.html)
Otherwise known to locals as Fresburg! If these jackobites get it right by next year...they'll call it "the 15"...AGAIN! Lord Mar's Revolt to all ye lowlanders!:O:

[em2nought]

Meanwhile in Fresno an army of liberation is being trained.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Scottish%20Games/20140920_102014.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Scottish%20Games/20140920_102014.jpg.html)



Shouldn't take much more, what is the British army down to now? About two brigades? And with an unarmed population... :har:

[Jimbuna]

Three brigades actually....you forgot the Boys Brigade.

[BossMark]

The next yes no vote in Scotland should be 'is Nicola Sturgeon a man"?.

[STEED]

The next yes no vote in Scotland should be 'is Nicola Sturgeon a man"?.

Quickest and cheapest way to find out is put your hand up her skirt and if you find meat and two veg your be....:o then :88) then :huh: then :dead: or on the other hand :up: yes she is a woman who will have you locked up for groping.

[Skybird]

http://mises.org/daily/6905/Scotland-and-the-Hoppean-Blueprint-for-Secession


(...)

Upon further analysis, it would appear that (now former) Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond and Yes Scotland may have employed the wrong strategy. What they should have done is insist during pre-referendum negotiations that any unitary council area that voted “Yes” to independence would be permitted to leave the UK. In other words, the secession movement should have been decentralist and piecemeal.

(...)

The final vote results revealed just how difficult it was for Yes Scotland to obtain a majority vote for independence from 3.6 million voters spread across all of Scotland, and illustrates why they should have pushed for the small-scale secession of Scottish council areas using a model proposed by Hans-Hermann Hoppe (http://mises.org/daily/6508/How-to-Fight-the-Modern-State).

(...)

Of course, there were various local non-libertarian political and ideological reasons that this strategy was not employed by the Scots. If Yes Scotland had used the Hoppe secession strategy, the newly independent city-states of Glasgow and Dundee City and council areas of North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire would have emerged and to survive they would have been forced to seek genuine free trade policies with the UK and the rest of the world, rather than for preserving the Scottish welfare state with tax revenues generated from North Sea oil and gas fields. They would have had to educate voters about the economic success stories of small and independent city-states like Hong Kong, Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino and others which adopt free-trade policies in order to survive and many of which have their own currencies.

(...)

Lessons to be learned by other independence movements across Europe. It's not about back to more, just smaller national states. Its about back to local regions.

Scottish - and any other regional - career politicians will not like to hear that, of course. They plan to still live parasitically of the new "nations" they hope to form up, only that these are smaller than the nations from which they broke away. In principal they want the same set of rules that favours their known ways - only on a smaller gameboard that they personally can control more easily. And that can easily lead to quite the opposite of more liberty: it could lead to even more corruption and usurping of power by the few.

[AndyJWest]

I very much doubt that many of those voting 'yes' in Glasgow or Dundee City or 'council areas of North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire' would have done so if they'd been asked whether they wanted status as 'independent' petty statelets within a Scotland that otherwise remained within the UK. One of the key factors influencing votes was clearly the question of how much influence an independent Scotland would have - a divided Scotland would clearly have both less influence within the UK, and less still outside.

Of course such factors don't come into the consideration of the von Mises moonbat collective, given their evident inability to comprehend that the real world neither shares their half-baked philosophy nor their sociopathic objectives.

On the other hand, like many other fringe religious cults (which is what they are, by any objective standard), they can on occasion be entertaining. So keep on providing the links, Skybird, we could all do with some light entertainement...

[Skybird]

If you have nothing constructive to add, just mockery, why don't you just stay silent?

The idea behind the concept compares in a way to the infection by gems. Smaller local regions form bridgeheads from which - if they are successful - attractiveness radiates into their bordering regions to copy their recipe - or to realise that these centres are so successful that oneself, as a neighbour, must raise one's own compettitveness and attractiveness for citizens if one does not want to get lost behind.

That means a dramatic change of political goals and understanding of what politics actually mean, should aim for, can achieve. It also means a substantial disempowerment of career politicians, since they can n longer blackmail protection money like crazy lunatics, but cannot avoid any longer to realsie that their decisions have to reflect realities whose borderts and limits have to be realistically considered.

Nobody wants to save, everybody wants to take, and politicians wants to spend without limits so that they can bribe voters. You have to destroy certain state monopolies from which career politicians directly benefit, if you ever want to break this vicious cycle, namely the monopoly to print/create money.

From leftist people it cannot be expected to ever understand that, looting and blackmailing is their only means of economic understanding, beyond which they have no economic reason to offer.

" From time to time I entertained the hope that my writings would bear partial fruit and show the way for policy. I have always looked for evidence of a change in ideology. But I never actually deceived myself; my theories explain, but cannot show the decline of a great civilization. I set out to be a reformer, but only became the historian of decline. " - L. v. Mises, 1978: "Notes and Recollections"

In the end, all positive assets and all negative quota will unavoidably get balanced when the monopolistic credit system falls apart, and nobody will be able to escape the consequences by socialist excuses or other misled ideological claims. Never ever has political ideology made economic realities bending, turning or changing by even just one fraction of an inch, ideology always get crushed - sometimes sooner, sometimes later. Possible, however, that this necessary and natural correction of this system that then has completely fallen out of balance will cause a dramatic amount of conflicts and collateral damages. But that comes not only not by surprise, but fully deserved as well. People like you will claim that it was not their mistake, and that they meant it well. And people like me will know that all your meaning and wishing - will not relieve you of your guilt.

To claim that all the failures that socialism has created in history - with hundreds of millions having suffered and having died by it - only comes from that it was not true socialism, but a hijacked, a distorted, a not truly socialist form of socialism that got implemented, only illustrates the lack of understanding of basic economic contexts and mechanisms, the ignorance for the ways by which real wealth only can be formed and accumulated (including social stability and social improvements for all) and the amount of derealization of a mind that after that immense human suffering caused by socialistic utopias still has the chuzpe to claim that "socialism has had nothing to do with it, because it was no real socialism." But it was.

I'm all for the independence movements across Europe. But they need to see that forming smaller sub-states the size of Bavaria, Scotland or Catalunya is not really a "zielführend" (= constructive, productive, focussed aim) solution, but must be seen as the beginning of a further fractioning for sure. Else one creates on smaller scale the same problems that the bigger national host is being brought down by: growing centralism, planned economy, socialistic tyranny, corruption, erosion from within, state monopolies for money forging, an avalanche of ever increasing debts that finally always form a snowball so big that it will bury all and everybody under it. At best one has won time, not more. Getting rid of the established parties and the caste of career politicians and their lobbies and cliques, is essential and indispensable. And you have to keep politicians away from the money, you shall never allow them to make their own money (fact is NOBODY needs to create or regulate money, money forms up all by itself in a functional free market) .

Else one always ends up in this situation again, sooner or later:

http://www11.pic-upload.de/29.10.14/dcwv4c2et8p.jpg (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-25081224/6508.jpg.html)

Happy cow. She's allowed to vote. :up:

[AndyJWest]

Nobody is going to join your cult.