View Full Version : The Scottish Independence thread - Yay or Nay?
OK, since we don't have one of these......
As most of you may or may not be aware, this September Scotland gets to vote on whether it wants to be an independent country and leave the UK.
My own opinion is that independence comes under the heading of "A Bad Thing" and I will personally be voting no, for various reasons.
One thing that has me concerned is a distinct feeling that most English people don't really give a toss what happens up here, almost as if they view Scotland as a separate country already. The recent hoo-ha over Alistair Darling's "Comatose" leadership of the Better Together campaign has only increased this concern.
What I would like to see are your arguments both for and against independence, but also your thoughts on the process of Devolution itself.
Do you feel devolution is a complete waste of time and should be abolished and everything brought back to Westminster?
Or do you think that there should be more devolution, with each regional assembly getting more powers and England getting it's own parliament, therefore turning the "United Kingdom" into the "Federated Kingdom"?
Some articles to get the brain working - I'd appreciate it if peeps would take the time to read these.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/john_curtice_and_rachel_ormston_you_think_scots_ar e_the_lefties_right_1_1500373
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/opinion/independence-for-scotland.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/politics/9073781/even-if-the-no-campaign-wins-in-scotland-the-union-will-lose/
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/12/if-tories-are-worried-about-scotland-voting-independence-they-shouldnt-be
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/who-do-we-think-we-are-scottish-and-not-british-1-3113520
Over to you gents - Devolution good or devolution bad?
(Oh, and Bossmark and Steed, if you are going to contribute I'd like something that isn't monosyllabic - I'm aware both of you don't really like Scotland!:O:)
Mike.:hmm2:
In theory Devolution is a good idea, it doesn't make too much sense that things in Aberdeen are run from Westminster, but full on independence is, I think, a bridge too far. I hope that most rational Scots will see it this way, and be able to look beyond the anti-Sassenach stirrings from Alex Salmond who seems to have very little planning for post-independence and has based his entire campaign around just getting independence rather than worrying about what happens if he achieves it.
The thing is, in our own seperate ways, England and Scotland have achieved some things worthy of note, but together we ruled over an empire that was the biggest ever seen, we were the forefront of the planet for a century and it was a joint effort that saw us through. Certainly the British armed forces have benefitted immensely from being able to call on the 'devils in skirts' to get the job done, and Scotland has benefitted from advances made in the south, although admittedly not as much as the south has, and the fact that there is a North/South divide in England alone, let alone between England and Scotland is a regrettable thing.
Perhaps it's just because I am a union of the two, with a Scottish father and an English mother, I feel a loyalty to both countries and thus consider myself British, with the history and characteristics that come with it. Culloden was a long time ago, let's not resserect ancient arguments to sacrifice the progress that has been made.
Let's stick together. :up:
Sailor Steve
01-04-14, 09:38 AM
Sometimes the search function actually works.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=191393&highlight=scottish+independence
Alright Steve - my mistake!:/\\!! No need for the remark though - it's a bit uncalled for.
I did try the search engine but didn't pick up on it - either I didn't put in the right search terms - or more likely I missed it when I skimmed through....
Either way, an honest error, as I did look.
Anyway, since that thread descended into farce, I'd like to try and keep this in a serious vein, if possible!
@Oberon: I quite agree - I'm 1/4 English, 1/4 Shetlander and 1/2 Scottish Mainland with relatives at literally both ends of the country (not that I've any intention of setting foot in Pompey just now - might not be safe.....) and consider myself both Scottish and British co-equally.
As for Culloden, if anyone actually looked at the history instead of the jingoism, they'll see that it was actually Scots vs English and Scots. 1745 was a civil war of sorts!
Whats got my thought processes going is that my cousins in Portsmouth didn't have a clue who Alec Salmond was when he appeared on telly (though they do now) and had very little interest in what happened up north.
That and various comments I've heard and seen make me wonder if England's really all that bothered?
Mike.:hmmm:
Sometimes the search function actually works.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=191393&highlight=scottish+independence
Only sometimes:
Migrants (Europe):
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210293
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210257
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210201
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210192
Guns:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=205808
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210303
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210021
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210020
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209461
NSA/government snooping:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210305
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210265
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210218
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210229
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210012
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209991
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209984
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209906
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209757
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209321
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209394
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209353
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=208944
Obamacare:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210191
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209614
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=207870
2nd Amendment/Gun Control:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=203106
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210166
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210304
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209778
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209157
Gender equality/inequality:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210319
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209785
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209616
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209423
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209297
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209200
And that's just going back by two months....
Sailor Steve
01-04-14, 10:40 AM
Alright Steve - my mistake!:/\\!! No need for the remark though - it's a bit uncalled for.
Then I apologize. I was thinking I should post something other than just a link. My bad. :oops:
I did try the search engine but didn't pick up on it - either I didn't put in the right search terms - or more likely I missed it when I skimmed through....
Either way, an honest error, as I did look.
Then I'm even more at fault. I'm probably jaded due to seeing so many people not use it. I will leave my comment in place, though, as if I remove it then your reply and this one will make no sense.
Anyway, since that thread descended into farce, I'd like to try and keep this in a serious vein, if possible!
Probably a good idea. I'll try to help you in that goal, if I can.
nikimcbee
01-04-14, 10:41 AM
Only sometimes:
Migrants (Europe):
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210293
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210257
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210201
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210192
Guns:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=205808
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210303
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210021
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210020
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209461
NSA/government snooping:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210305
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210265
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210218
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210229
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210012
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209991
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209984
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209906
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209757
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209321
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209394
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209353
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=208944
Obamacare:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210191
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209614
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=207870
2nd Amendment/Gun Control:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=203106
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210166
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210304
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209778
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209157
Gender equality/inequality:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210319
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209785
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209616
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209423
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209297
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209200
And that's just going back by two months....
...and I thought I had free time one my hands.:haha::up:
Sailor Steve
01-04-14, 10:41 AM
Only sometimes:
And that's just going back by two months....
And that's what I meant about people not using it. Of course many of them just don't care. :dead:
nikimcbee
01-04-14, 10:44 AM
Motion to change search link to: "Just ask Oberon."
Taking votes now.:know::/\\k:
@Oberon: I quite agree - I'm 1/4 English, 1/4 Shetlander and 1/2 Scottish Mainland with relatives at literally both ends of the country (not that I've any intention of setting foot in Pompey just now - might not be safe.....) and consider myself both Scottish and British co-equally.
As for Culloden, if anyone actually looked at the history instead of the jingoism, they'll see that it was actually Scots vs English and Scots. 1745 was a civil war of sorts!
Whats got my thought processes going is that my cousins in Portsmouth didn't have a clue who Alec Salmond was when he appeared on telly (though they do now) and had very little interest in what happened up north.
That and various comments I've heard and seen make me wonder if England's really all that bothered?
Mike.:hmmm:
I imagine as we get nearer September the media will bring up the referendum more and more so people down south will get more acustomed to seeing Alec giving it his all. I think though that if Scotland really did vote in favour that it would shock most people, although many of them would probably think it's a seperate country anyway but that's the Celebrity Big Brother generation for you. :doh: Certainly though aside from the odd snippet in the news, usually when Alec has put forward a new claim that Scotland will be better independent, the pending referendum doesn't take up much time in the southern media, although I expect that to change as the year goes on.
It was rather a mess back then, wasn't it? Between that and the Highland Clearances later on, it's understandable why many Scots hold a grudge against Westminster, and there's certainly more than enough evidence to point out a North-South divide in the country.
It's quite funny though, really, because I did a bit of digging into my ancestry last year, and found that even on the English side of the family, the 'Clack's originated from Scotland back in the 1700s (probably originally from Clackmannanshire) so all roads lead to the north it would seem. :haha:
Jimbuna
01-04-14, 11:01 AM
I'm for the union but should the vote go for leaving, then Scotland need to take with them their share of the national debt, sort out their own currency and defence.
Herr-Berbunch
01-04-14, 01:01 PM
Personally the majority of me would like the union to remain, any vote will be unfair - why should only the Scots get a vote that affects England too, and why should a devolved government still have a voice in Westminster? The minority me thinks those that want independence should get it but rely not one iota on the rest of us.
This goes for Wales and Ulster too. And Kernow!
Dread Knot
01-04-14, 01:20 PM
This question does seem to be an emotional one.
However, the impression I get from relatives living abroad is that most Scots are ambivalent about their emotional loyalty. Given a clear case of wearing a blue shirt or a white one, it's quite clear who they support, but when it comes to politics, finances, and nationality, the waters are far murkier.
I'm slowly - and somewhat to my surprise- being forced to conclude that most Scots are emotionally far more British than they will admit.
I couldn't give a rats arse. :O:
Aktungbby
01-04-14, 02:03 PM
It will be voted down; Even the HRM is a Scot on her late beloved mom's side, a MacClean of the Ilk of Mull, if I'm not mistaken, as is my wife. I'm a Kincaid, sub clan of the Glasgow(murderous cutthroats n' reivers) area myself and Scots-Irish-German as is half of the American nation and most of Appalachia. I suspect very strongly that there be insufficient "'wang' under the kilt"(old drinking song lyric) to carry the motion.:O:
the Glasgow
A weegie! No wonder so many people have trouble understanding you! :O: :03: :haha:
Schroeder
01-04-14, 03:35 PM
A weegie! No wonder so many people have trouble understanding you! :O: :03: :haha:
Who has trouble understanding Scots?
:D
*for those who don't know, I always had a very hard time to understand the Scot Kratos (the older ones here might remember him) on Team Speak.:/\\!!
Then I apologize. I was thinking I should post something other than just a link. My bad. :oops:
Then I'm even more at fault. I'm probably jaded due to seeing so many people not use it. I will leave my comment in place, though, as if I remove it then your reply and this one will make no sense.
Probably a good idea. I'll try to help you in that goal, if I can.
Not to worry, Steve. That's the joy of forums, isn't it? It must be like trying to herd cats!:03:
I'm for the union but should the vote go for leaving, then Scotland need to take with them their share of the national debt, sort out their own currency and defence.
What about further devolution for England? It's the only way I know of to fix the West Lothian Question and to make the current system fairer.
I couldn't give a rats arse. :O:
Ah, but you will...... Cameron et al will try their best!:D
A weegie! No wonder so many people have trouble understanding you! :O: :03: :haha:
Weegies can be pretty bad, but teuchter's from the north-east can be a whole lot worse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAdpQ5-pXA
:D
Mike.:03:
My opinion on Scottish independence is that as an American it's none of my business. :salute:
Herr-Berbunch
01-04-14, 06:56 PM
My opinion on Scottish independence is that as an American it's none of my business. :salute:
Great, that means that the good ol' US of A will be coming shortly to liberate the oppressed Scots. :D
What's under the North Sea did you say? :hmm2:
:O:
Great, that means that the good ol' US of A will be coming shortly to liberate the oppressed Scots. :D
What's under the North Sea did you say? :hmm2:
:O:
No means yes? Is your last name Orwell? :)
Who has trouble understanding Scots?
:D
....
Well the sober Scots , to begin with ...
:D
.
BossMark
01-05-14, 03:39 AM
I say the Scots must stay :yep: now if it was the Welsh that wanted independence...............................
You'd move there in a flash. :O:
Catfish
01-05-14, 05:15 AM
I'm for the union but should the vote go for leaving, then Scotland need to take with them their share of the national debt, sort out their own currency and defence.
m'k, if England then pays back what it did to Scotland before and during the Empire days .. thinking of de-foresting, driving away people and let herds of sheep eat anything that tries to grow - english sheep, of course. Scotland was a wasteland, after that.
If you take all that into the calculation i bet there will still be some debts, but England would have to pay them :D:03:
Jimbuna
01-05-14, 05:56 AM
m'k, if England then pays back what it did to Scotland before and during the Empire days .. thinking of de-foresting, driving away people and let herds of sheep eat anything that tries to grow - english sheep, of course. Scotland was a wasteland, after that.
If you take all that into the calculation i bet there will still be some debts, but England would have to pay them :D:03:
I think you need to research 'The Barnett Formula' :03:
Jimbuna
01-05-14, 06:02 AM
Great, that means that the good ol' US of A will be coming shortly to liberate the oppressed Scots. :D
What's under the North Sea did you say? :hmm2:
:O:
I would predict at least 3,000 job losses when a certain submarine base relocates south, not to mention many thousands more as defence contracts for vessels are cancelled (I do hope the treasury lawyers did their homework) on the grounds of 'foreign companies not being able to build RN vessels both on historic and constitutional grounds).
I really can't see the union breaking up but more hopefully the SNP making a fool of themselves and losing the majority of seats...if only the fools with the red rosettes could get their act together.
Catfish
01-05-14, 07:16 AM
I think you need to research 'The Barnett Formula' :03:
Thanks, this was interesting !
Although i guess the benefits from plundering Scotland before and during the Empire went into a (very) few hands, while the current financing as usually is being done by the taxpayers .. :03:
I do not really see a separated Scotland though, and i do also not believe it is finances only that makes them stay ..
Jimbuna
01-05-14, 07:28 AM
Thanks, this was interesting !
Although i guess the benefits from plundering Scotland before and during the Empire went into a (very) few hands, while the current financing as usually is being done by the taxpayers .. :03:
I do not really see a separated Scotland though, and i do also not believe it is finances only that makes them stay ..
The Union is strongest in every context of the word until it is broken up and weakened both economically, fiscally and in stature in the eyes of the world.
Wolferz
01-05-14, 08:52 AM
Billy Wallace rolling(all four pieces) in his grave?
Maybe it is time for Scotland to reboot. That's what it's all aboot.:up:
Tango589
01-05-14, 08:58 AM
If bonnie Scotland does go it's own way, does that mean passports and inoculations will be necessary to visit? :O:
Jimbuna
01-05-14, 09:02 AM
If bonnie Scotland does go it's own way, does that mean passports and inoculations will be necessary to visit? :O:
Probably gain entry at the frontier by passing over a bottle of whiskey :)
Just think of the employment that would be created if we were to ebuild Hadrians Wall :O:
Catfish
01-05-14, 09:10 AM
Probably gain entry at the frontier by passing over a bottle of whiskey :)
Maybe a cattle grid ? :O:
Just think of the employment that would be created if we were to rebuild Hadrians Wall :O:
:haha:
Tango589
01-05-14, 09:11 AM
Probably gain entry at the frontier by passing over a bottle of whiskey :)
Just think of the employment that would be created if we were to ebuild Hadrians Wall :O:
Once Hadrians wall was built, within 20 mins the north side would have cladding on it and the south side would have a long row of conservatorys built against it!
All joking aside, the independence and devolution debate needs to be broadened to include the entirety of the UK.
The Union that Jim defends is no longer the same as the one prior to 1999. Whereas before everything was centralised at Westminster, now Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast are home to devolved assemblies. In the case of the latter, it's probably the only way that the Northern Ireland pressure cooker can let of steam without an excessive amount of violence. The Labour Party in the person of the late Donald Dewar is responsible for Holyrood and since the other non-English parts of the UK were getting something, so did Wales....
The Union must evolve as the current setup is, IMHO, grossly unfair on England - as I've said before and will continue to do so, non-English MP's can vote on English matters that their English colleagues can't do in return. The West Lothian Question has to be resolved one way or the other, as does the Barnett Formula.:hmmm: Putting voting restrictions of non-English MP's at Westminster strikes me as little more than a half-way house.:down:
Scotland only has a population of 5 million or so, of course it's going to cost more to provide services as there isn't the economy of scale that there is in England. The various party's mania for the "low skill, low wage" model of economic management continually cripples the ability to generate enough taxation revenue to cover Government spending. That applies to whole of the UK, not just Scotland. After all, whereas the UK average wage is roughly £26,500, in Scotland it's only £20,862 (approx). That contrast should make the most ardent of pro-independence supporters pause, assuming it can get past their blinkers! There have been some rumbles in Holyrood about adopting the "Scandinavian Model" of "high-skill, high-wage", but that needs more investment in education and won't be an immediate panacea. Assuming someone has the balls to actually try it!
What does baffle me is the seeming unwillingness of England to demand it's own devolved Parliament. The referendum in 2004 about devolution for the North East of England foundered - why? Fear of too many politicians, inter regional rivalry, fears that it would cost too much? I do wonder if the English sense of identity is so joined to being British that the two are one and the same, whereas elseware there is a subtle distinction.
Mike.:hmm2:
Platapus
01-05-14, 12:16 PM
How about Scotland secedes from the UK, and becomes the 51st state of the US? That way we can really piss off Puerto Rico.
A win win for every one. :O:
Tango589
01-05-14, 02:40 PM
I do wonder if the English sense of identity is so joined to being British that the two are one and the same, whereas elseware there is a subtle distinction.:hmm2:
I feel there is more than a grain of truth in what you say. Personally I do use the 2 interchangably, even if I am 1/2 Irish by descent!
Penguin
01-05-14, 06:00 PM
Yay from me (sorry British mates!), because I'm a shallow person and I find Cat Boyd extremely hot! :yep:
On a serious note: I can pretty much sympathize with the positions of the RIC. I would love to see trying out an alternative to the current economic system, which is is prevailant in anglo-saxon countries, especially with its strong emphasis on the financial sector and its tendency to sacrifice all social achievements to some shareholder value.
I also believe that a working democratic system has to be down-to-top, so I am a big fan of smaller entities deciding their fate on their own, rather than having a centralistic system.
As a leftie, the first article from The Scotsman curbed my hopes a little. :wah:
In the German media, the positions of the RIC or the SSP are seldom mentioned, it's painted as if it's only the SNP which roots for independence. However from my understanding, Scotish nationalism differs greatly from other nation's nationalism, it looks like it includes less xenophobic components.
Since we're on a military-dominated website, another question comes to my mind. I haven't read too much about how the military should be organized, as many British units are tradionally Scottish dominated (don't know if there are still regiments which are solely made up of Scots). A joint-venture in this sector would certainly make sense - of course with veto powers when London decides to take part in another senseless oversea adventure.
My opinion on Scottish independence is that as an American it's none of my business. :salute:
Well, coming from a nation which has some experience about the necessity to dissolve political bands, you certainly can voice an opinion. :03:
Especially as MGM did a very good job by posting some reading material to get a grasp of the issue and thus trying to enable an informed discussion.
I think this is an issue which has been discussed in America since even before the foundation of US, and still is a relevant topic today: the question of the rights and powers of smaller entities versus central power, aka state rights vs federal rights.
Well, coming from a nation which has some experience about the necessity to dissolve political bands, you certainly can voice an opinion. :03:
I do hear what you're saying but when you look at it our national experiences are quite different in some very fundamental ways. The biggest one being that Scotland isn't located 3000 miles away from England on the other side of an ocean that, at the time, took a month to get across.
Especially as MGM did a very good job by posting some reading material to get a grasp of the issue and thus trying to enable an informed discussion.
I think this is an issue which has been discussed in America since even before the foundation of US, and still is a relevant topic today: the question of the rights and powers of smaller entities versus central power, aka state rights vs federal rights.
That's another big difference to consider. We weren't a smaller entity, we were a lot bigger and far more ethnically diverse.
I guess it's that I feel this is a decision that the British will have to work out amongst themselves and all us foreigners can really contribute is noise that will tend to muddy things up more than help.
Besides I don't want them bitching that we gave them bad advice! If they screw this up it should be totally on them. :)
Penguin
01-05-14, 07:07 PM
I do hear what you're saying but when you look at it our national experiences are quite different in some very fundamental ways. The biggest one being that Scotland isn't located 3000 miles away from England on the other side of an ocean that, at the time, took a month to get across.
Good point, but 1812 they were a lot closer. ;) Or when Texas declared independence, with the ruling country just across the river.
That's another big difference to consider. We weren't a smaller entity, we were a lot bigger and far more ethnically diverse.
Oh, this referred just to domestic US politics, down to the county level. For example I fappreciate that you guys can vote for your local sherrif/police chief, or the existance of referendums on a local/state level.
You can compare the US discussion with the discussion about the EU here in Europe, just exchange DC with Brussels. As Germany also has a federal structure, this might explain why we are more wary of a centralized power than e.g. the French, who are traditionally ruled from Paris.
Besides I don't want them bitching that we gave them bad advice! If they screw this up it should be totally on them. :)
Damned, I should have thought about this before my previous post :o - now when the Scottish dissolve and the experiment goes wrong, they'll blame trhe Germans - have to find a way to put the blame back on you! :D
Skybird
09-06-14, 05:24 PM
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/09/06/latest-scottish-referendum-poll-yes-lead/
The Scottish Independence movement has taken the lead in latest polls.
:) Well, if that is what they really want, okay. No people in one place is property of other people living somewhere else. The one people has no claims and rights over the other.
Of course it can and should be expected that Scotland lives by its own means, and cannot demand that others should pay its bills. Not "Restbritain", not the EU.
I would wish that several German federal states would leave federal Germany behind, too. The smaller and the more states, the better. Across the whole continent, so: in other countries the same splitting up, please.
Would also be a formidable weapon to destroy the EU and the Euro regime, and is a good antidot against tax-sucking by centralised political and administrative monopolists.
So I hope Scotland has done its calculations correctly, and goes all the way, and can live by its own means. Good luck!
magicstix
09-06-14, 05:28 PM
Being an American I have no dog in this fight, but I've always found it funny that the Scots seem to want to have it both ways by getting the good of independence and none of the bad. I found myself chuckling when they just automatically assumed they could keep using the UK sterling pound for currency and automatically join the EU with all of the same exceptions that were afforded the UK, as well as just being able to freely cross UK borders and use UK passports.
It sounds a lot like they just want to be independent in name only, with none of the hardships involved in being a sovereign nation...
Eichhörnchen
09-06-14, 06:15 PM
Visit our thread: "What's to Become of Sir Hamish?"
Skybird
09-06-14, 06:16 PM
I read about it today a bit, and it seems that that is why the independence movement was so successful: by taming expectations and telling people indeed that not many things would change.
The opponents of independence seem to have overdone the demonization tactic they tried.
I also read that there are fears that they could get a "conservative" government in London :haha: again at the next electiuns, while most Scots - at least that is what I read - would prefer a more "social-democratic" (=socialist) government. I wonder whether the author is right there?
Different to what I would have assumed, a fear to stay connected to the British pound, seems to play no role. But then, I know nothing about Scots and Scotland. Just know those beautiful pictures of landscapes. :)
Skybird
09-06-14, 06:17 PM
Visit our thread: "What's to Become of Sir Hamish?"
Oh! I thought that were about some British literature, and so did not visit it!
Would be a shame to see them go, but they have the right to do so, the Better Together campaign has been a bit of a damp squib and it was a bad move to put the former chancellor at the head, his past has just overshadowed the whole campaign.
Honestly I think their long term prospects aren't as rosy as they think it is, but if they made the right choices they could make a go of it. Expect a lot of sour grapes from Westminster and feet dragging if they do split. :O:
Tribesman
09-06-14, 06:51 PM
also read that there are fears that they could get a "conservative" government in London :haha: again at the next electiuns, while most Scots - at least that is what I read - would prefer a more "social-democratic" (=socialist) government. I wonder whether the author is right there?
Conservative governments destroyed their support in Scotland. They completely screwed their conservative/unionist power base which used to give them a third of the votes.
They finally killed it off with their disasterous "all people are equal" tax scheme which resulted in the conservative government belatedly discovering that Maggie had lost the plot entirely.
THEBERBSTER
09-06-14, 06:56 PM
I hope that Scotland is brave it enough to go it alone.
The thousands of deaths and massacres of the Scots fighting the English through the ages will not then have been in vain.
The Clansmen fought for their independence at the time and paid a heavy price.
Many of the voters will have had relatives from these times gone by.
I hope they will say yes, and do it for them.
Now there is an opportunity but will it be taken?
I'd like to think that all we've done as a union would make up for the massacres before, but admittedly, and much to our shame, so much of what we made was clustered down south, around London and the Home Counties, Scotland has always been the poor relation and the forgotten area, just like the rest of the north, despite being home to some of our best inventors and driving figures of the 19th and 20th centuries and beyond.
Stealhead
09-06-14, 08:05 PM
Also the home of some of your best soldiers.
Eichhörnchen
09-07-14, 02:52 AM
You got that right: the 15th(Scottish) and 52nd(Lowland) Divisions (although I think including Canadians, who were just as fearsome) scared the crap out of the German paras in NW Europe at the end of the war.
Like I said in the other thread mentioned, so much of what what makes Britain "Great" is Scottish, but they've had always to watch their lives largely shaped and controlled from Westminster.
Jimbuna
09-07-14, 05:08 AM
Visit our thread: "What's to Become of Sir Hamish?"
Or better still, read the thread from the link below:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210352&highlight=independence
Threads merged...one Scottish thread is enough for some Brits :O:
Jimbuna
09-07-14, 05:16 AM
Being an American I have no dog in this fight, but I've always found it funny that the Scots seem to want to have it both ways by getting the good of independence and none of the bad. I found myself chuckling when they just automatically assumed they could keep using the UK sterling pound for currency and automatically join the EU with all of the same exceptions that were afforded the UK, as well as just being able to freely cross UK borders and use UK passports.
It sounds a lot like they just want to be independent in name only, with none of the hardships involved in being a sovereign nation...
That if I may say so is a pretty good assessment imho but what I will add is the fact that they are refusing to pay their share of the national debt if we don't allow them to use the pound....won't be much good for their credit rating in financial circles.
Salmond is gambling too much on oil and gas reserves, estimates of which differ widely from expert to expert and any drop in energy prices will amount to a loss of income and a heavier burdon on a population amounting to a little over 5 million.
That won't bother him though, he'll probably not be on his 'throne' long enough to suffer for the consequences.
Eichhörnchen
09-07-14, 05:25 AM
Now that the threads have merged, can I ask again my original question: what's to become of Sir Hamish?
LONDON (Reuters) - The British government is scrambling to respond to a lurch in the opinion polls towards a vote for Scottish independence this month by promising a range of new powers for Scotland if it chooses to stay within the United Kingdom.
British finance minister George Osborne said on Sunday that plans would be set out in the coming days to give Scotland more autonomy on tax, spending and welfare if Scots vote against independence in a historic referendum on Sept. 18.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-scotland-more-powers-shuns-independence-osborne-083146982--business.html#umrt6kq
Osbourne the slimball trying a bribe.
Cybermat47
09-07-14, 06:09 AM
Scotland already IS independent. In 1807 two Corps of the Grand Armeè landed in the French client state of Irealnd, and quickly moved against Edinburgh. After a pitched battle, in which a British General was killed and Arthur Wellesly was wounded, Scotland gained it's independence, albeit as a French client state.
My Napoleon: Total War campaigns DO change history, right? :06:
Catfish
09-07-14, 06:16 AM
OT just read there you did not need a passport, when you wanted to pass a border from one nation to another, before 1914.
I take it Scotland would then need new passports and a whole new citizen management as well – but i take it it won't happen anyway, and if they will just use an adapted english system (?)
Jimbuna
09-07-14, 06:45 AM
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-scotland-more-powers-shuns-independence-osborne-083146982--business.html#umrt6kq
Osbourne the slimball trying a bribe.
Much more of that and the English will be demanding similar privileges :)
Jimbuna
09-07-14, 06:46 AM
OT just read there you did not need a passport, when you wanted to pass a border from one nation to another, before 1914.
I take it Scotland would then need new passports and a whole new citizen management as well – but i take it it won't happen anyway, and if they will just use an adapted english system (?)
They'll need a lot more than a passport after Hadrians Wall is rebuilt :03:
Much more of that and the English will be demanding similar privileges :)
I have a whole list but I think the answer will be no unless like the Scots I could blackmail him on something. :shifty: :03:
Jimbuna
09-07-14, 09:07 AM
Arguments for independence:
http://www.independentscotland.org/content/voting-yes-for-scottish-independence.htm
Arguments against independence:
http://www.independentscotland.org/content/voting-no-for-scottish-independence.htm
Schroeder
09-07-14, 01:28 PM
I hope that Scotland is brave it enough to go it alone.
The thousands of deaths and massacres of the Scots fighting the English through the ages will not then have been in vain.
With that way of thinking the whole of Europe would still be at war with each other for all eternity....
Maybe we should start a war with Italy...after all the Romans did to us 2.000 years ago...:/\\!!
With that way of thinking the whole of Europe would still be at war with each other for all eternity....
Maybe we should start a war with Italy...after all the Romans did to us 2.000 years ago...:/\\!!
Well, it's been the longest period of time that Europe hasn't been at war with each other since the Roman era. :doh:
Good grief, that's a bit of thread resurrection!:huh: I haven't been keeping an eye on SubSim lately.:oops:
Anyway, for those who think it's all about "Braveheart" style English hating, I found this article on the BBC news website, which should open yer eyes a bit :O::
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_8699/index.html
This bit sums things up quite well:
I asked one, an old friend I hadn’t seen for at least 10 years, why he’d be voting yes. “I changed my mind quite a while ago. For me it’s about the way Britain has gone - the extremes of wealth and poverty that people down south seem comfortable with, the dominance of the privately educated people in all walks of life, the rise of UKIP, the talk of leaving the EU and a Labour Party that I don’t really recognise any more”.
He is not alone. Social attitudes surveys reveal that Scottish public opinion, on any given question, is not very different to opinion elsewhere in the UK. The Scots do not seem to be more left-wing, issue-by-issue, than anyone else - at least not by very much.
Why, then, do the Scots vote so differently? Why is it that the central Edinburgh constituency that I live in returns a Labour MP dependably at every general election? When I moved here in the 1970s and 80s, it was a Tory seat and Edinburgh was mostly a Tory city.
The yes-supporting journalist and writer George Kerevan has himself moved from the British left to the independence camp.
The need for independence as he sees it is “based on the need to put into practice traditional Scottish views on morality inherited from the Reformation and codified by the Scottish Enlightenment… This is a moral philosophy that definitely encourages private endeavour rather than state paternalism, but it also anchors private morality in a social context".
In other words, private endeavour and reward should be connected in some way to the greater public good.
For nationalist intellectuals who have, in the course of their lifetimes moved to the independence camp, what is happening in Scotland is, in part, a Presbyterian revolt against what they perceive as the growing inequality of British society - the apparent retreat from the ideals of social mobility, from the social justice agenda that characterised post-war Britain from the 40s to the 80s.
Blame Westminster - the institution and the way it runs things is the problem.
Devolution for all, and that includes England's Cities and Counties as well.:rock:
Mike. :03:
donna52522
09-07-14, 02:23 PM
I say yay, those people suffered enough.
It's clear what we need now is a resurrection of the old borders.
http://www.wryngwyrmuk.org/resources/_wsb_550x810_EnglandMapAD700+1.jpg
But that would just result in Norway declaring war on us... :/\\!!
Catfish
09-07-14, 03:44 PM
^ You could build a shore battery, in Lindisfarne :)
Mercia? That pronounced 'murika? :)
ExFishermanBob
09-07-14, 06:16 PM
Well, that map's a bit modern - where's Strath Clwyd? And Cumbria?
Those are way too modern again. Try a bit older:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/images/PeutingerMap.jpg
Or older still if that one's a bit too Roman for you:
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/images/Britain/Britain/MapAD010.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/scotland-independence/5726836
So what happens if the vote is a tie?:hmmm: Is there a penalty shoot-out?
Jimbuna
09-08-14, 10:52 AM
The deciding factor may well be the fact that the Scots believe they are not only being governed from Westminster but also the fact that the Tories are in power...look how many Tory MP's are based in Scotland.
Skybird
09-08-14, 10:58 AM
Anyone having had a look at the Pound recently? :D
85% of the oil dwells would fall to Scotland. Point for them, a big loss for the south. Also, the financial market in the south would suffer tremendously and loose attractiveness.
On the other hand, the oil is not lasting forever, the amount getting produced, is declining. Could become a medium term problem for Scotland, depending on how far it would rely on those incomes.
I wish them Scots good luck, their case has my sympathy - but only as long as German workers and employees are not left with needing to pay the additional bills for it's "independence", not directly, not indirectly.
Platapus
09-08-14, 07:29 PM
If Scotland leaves the UK, would they still be part of the commonwealth? Or are they practically the same thing?
Buddahaid
09-08-14, 07:32 PM
The deciding factor may well be the fact that the Scots believe they are not only being governed from Westminster but also the fact that the Tories are in power...look how many Tory MP's are based in Scotland.
Pardon my ignorance but aren't they elected by their constituency when the PM calls for an election?
If Scotland leaves the UK, would they still be part of the commonwealth? Or are they practically the same thing?
As I understand it they are looking to remain part of the Commonwealth as an independent constitutional monarchy, meaning the Lizzie remains the Queen. Correct me if I've got that wrong though.
Onkel Neal
09-08-14, 08:32 PM
Well, it's been the longest period of time that Europe hasn't been at war with each other since the Roman era. :doh:
Thank you, America :shucks:
Thank you, America :shucks:
And the Soviets, if we hadn't been all in a Mexican stand-off with nukes then things probably wouldn't have been quite so rosy. :03:
Dread Knot
09-08-14, 09:19 PM
And the Soviets, if we hadn't been all in a Mexican stand-off with nukes then things probably wouldn't have been quite so rosy. :03:
As galling as it is to some, I do wonder if we don't have nuclear weapons in general to thank. No Great Power dust-ups since 1945. The only weapon system ever devised that put the glittering bigwigs at the top in the same position of risk as the little guys in the trenches.
Of course, that only works if you value your existence on this planet. Some of these fundamentalist types we have now days sort of stand that dynamic on it's head. :nope:
As galling as it is to some, I do wonder if we don't have nuclear weapons in general to thank. No Great Power dust-ups since 1945. The only weapon system ever devised that put the glittering bigwigs at the top in the same position of risk as the little guys in the trenches.
Of course, that only works if you value your existence on this planet. Some of these fundamentalist types we have now days sort of stand that dynamic on it's head. :nope:
Aye, I can't disagree there, we've had small scale dust-ups, proxy wars and the like but no great confrontations because both sides are concerned about the threat of escalation.
I wouldn't be quite so sure about the glittering bigwigs, they have nice cosy bunkers full of supplies to hide in, the average Joe just grows a new head. However they would be the leader of a broken nation when the fallout settled, and I think no-one is willing to go through the headache of repairing that.
Aktungbby
09-08-14, 11:04 PM
Maybe we should start a war with Italy...after all the Romans did to us 2.000 years ago...:/\\!!
Don't tell that to Publius Quintilius Varus!:dead: 9AD:D http://www.livius.org/a/germany/kalkriese/kalkriese_mask_s.jpg (http://www.livius.org/a/germany/kalkriese/kalkriese_mask.JPG)
Jimbuna
09-09-14, 07:02 AM
Pardon my ignorance but aren't they elected by their constituency when the PM calls for an election?
No ignorance on your part Sir...I know little to nothing about US politics. To each our own I suppose.
Back OT...the voters of each constituency do indeed vote for their respective candidates but at the present time IIRC there is only one Tory MP from Scotland in Westminster...such is there low level of popularity north of the border.
The Scottish Conservatives have yet to see a revival of fortunes following the 1997 wipeout; only one Conservative MP was returned to Westminster for a Scottish constituency at the general elections of 2001, 2005 and 2010. In the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Conservatives currently control 15 of the 129 seats, with 12 of these seats won through the system of proportional representation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Conservative_Party
Jimbuna
09-09-14, 07:04 AM
As I understand it they are looking to remain part of the Commonwealth as an independent constitutional monarchy, meaning the Lizzie remains the Queen. Correct me if I've got that wrong though.
Nope, that's how I understand it...Salmond has no objections as far as I am aware.
BossMark
09-09-14, 10:57 AM
Dear Scotland,
If you go, that's it. We don't want drunken phone calls in a few months saying what a huge mistake it was.
Regards,
England.
Trevally.
09-09-14, 11:42 AM
Dear Scotland,
If you go, that's it. We don't want drunken phone calls in a few months saying what a huge mistake it was.
Regards,
England.
http://anotherscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/a-letter-to-england/
Dear England
I hope you’re keeping well. I’m sure it must be a bit of a shock waking up to your newspapers this morning and realising that all of this could be about to end.
That’s certainly the impression that your newspaper columnists give. If any of this is coming as a surprise then that is frankly because your media have served you pretty poorly over the last two years.
They’ve tried to convince you that somehow this is all about you and how much the Scots hate you. It’s not about you – it’s about us. It’s about how we wish ourselves to be governed and it’s about the kind of society we want to live in.
Here is the reality of what has been going on in Scotland for the last two years. You might have read a few people talking about it, but to the best of my knowledge they’ve never shown it to you, so here goes…
Yes Glasgow Debate
Radical Independence Conference 2013
http://anotherscotland.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/davidhaymanradicalindependenceconferenceuhz-r72qcp6l.jpg
BwJw2lgIcAAGFt-
http://anotherscotland.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/bwjw2lgicaagft.jpg
This is just a miniscule sample of images that I pulled off Twitter as quickly as I could this morning. Events like these have been taking place on a weekly basis right across the whole length and breadth of Scotland for the last two years. And for every event with a turnout in the hundreds there has been a dozen events made up of just a few dozen, or even just a couple of people coming together to seriously discuss, in detail, the biggest political questions that we can possibly ask.
Just to put that in context I’ll remind you that all of this has been happening in a country with just two-thirds of the population of the North West of England. Can you imagine what England would be like if every single week crowds of 700 people or more were turning out in Manchester, in Liverpool, in Wigan, Preston, Blackburn, Bolton and Carlisle to discuss how they were going to change their country?
Don’t get me wrong. After all of this there is still a chance that Scotland might vote No on the 18th, but if it does nothing is ever going to be the same again. The people of Scotland have made themselves ungovernable.
That is going to be a big challenge for the SNP after independence, but right now it is an issue for the UK parties and for Labour in particular. Just minutes after last nights polling results were announced the Daily Mail ran this front page.
Mail Front Page
http://anotherscotland.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/mail-front-page.jpg
Make not mistake about it – just by itself that one headline will instantly have added about 5% to the Yes vote. After this I will be astonished if Ed Miliband can ever set foot in Scotland again.
That should worry you, especially if your hopes of improving your country are currently invested in the chance of returning a Labour government to power in 2015.
Even if the people of Scotland vote No the Scottish Labour party are done for after this campaign. The way in which they have conducted themselves over the last two years has been nothing short of a disgrace. I confidently predict that if there is a No vote then come next May many people in Scotland will be queing around the block to give the Scottish Labour party a kicking the likes of which it has never seen before. It’ll be driven by people who, in the space of just two years, will have gone from being completely disengaged in politics to being seasoned political campaigners. If Labour think they can continue relying on Scotland to provide them with lobby-fodder then they are very much mistaken.
I have sympathy for what you are going through right now. I can already see the reactions of the rest of the UK conforming to the classic 5 stages of grief model.
1 – Denial and isolation
Just yesterday I was talking to someone in Liverpool about the referendum. I told them that the rumour was that today’s newspapers were potentially going to show Yes in the lead. Even though they were supportive of the idea of Scotland becoming independent they still refused to believe that it was in any way likely.
After speaking to them I boarded and bus and drove through the centre of Liverpool watching the crowds out shopping. For me it was a moment of existential disconnection – watching all of these people going about their daily business with absolutely no idea of what is potentially about to hit them in under two weeks.
Over the last two years I have often spoken to friends and colleagues who work between both Scotland and England. In all of that time every single one of them has used the same word to describe the attitude that they encounter amongst people in England. That word is ‘sleepwalking’.
2 – Anger
Anger is a natural reaction and I don’t blame people for feeling it. Rejection hurts, but I’ll say it once again – this is not about you it’s about us. In the days that follow a Yes vote I fully expect to see huge anger coming from the British media and establishment. The right-wing press and the likes of UKIP will be goading people into venting their anger against the people of Scotland. I implore you to stand up and resist the bitterness and division that they will seek to create. Because after anger comes…
3 – Bargaining
Following a Yes vote there will be a huge amount that needs to be negotiated in a very short space of time. And you need to be on your toes at this stage – you cannot allow your political leaders to dictate this process, and you should not believe them when they try and goad you into taking your feelings out on others.
There is something that I believe that people in the rest of the UK need to get their heads around very quickly. Your leaders will attempt to convince you that Alex Salmond is either begging you to help him out or threatening you if you don’t agree to what he wants. The truth is that the negotiating position that the SNP have laid out in Scotland’s Future isn’t just the best deal for the people of Scotland – it is the best deal that the people of the rest of the UK could possibly expect in the event of Scotland’s departure.
I have done the reading and let me tell you – the currency union model that the SNP propose benefits the people of the UK far more than it is likely to benefit the people of Scotland. If the SNPs negotiating position was purely about winning the best deal that they could for the people of Scotland then they would not even be entertaining the idea of a formal currency union – they would simply go straight ahead and establish an independent Scottish currency with it’s own central bank and a fixed interest rate with Sterling, walking away from the UK’s national debts in the process.
Here is the most important thing that you need to understand right now. The idea that a newly independent Scotland would be walking away from a share of the UK’s debts is false. Scotland cannot agree to take on the UK’s debts because such a thing is legally impossible. The UK’s debt commitments are a legally binding contract that the UK government has entered into with the investors who have leant them money. Those contracts cannot be re-assigned to another third party and even it were possible the investors who issued the debt would not agree to it because to do so would go directly against their own interests. The reality is that we are not negotiating what share of the UK’s debts Scotland will be willing to take on. What is actually being negotiated is the level of foreign aid payments that a newly independent Scotland will be willing to make to the UK government in order to help it cover it’s debts.
That is not a threat. It is cold, hard reality. In February of this year George Osbourne, backed by Ed Balls and Danny Alexander, issued an announcement confirming that if Scotland votes for independence then the UK will continue to honour 100% of its existing debt obligations. Your government have already taken the unilateral decision that in the event of a breakup the rUK will be the sole continuator state, meaning that there is not a single thing that they can do to force the Scottish Government to accept any share of UK debt. That decision has already been taken on your behalf and that ought to worry you.
It ought to worry you because that triumvirate of Osbourne, Balls and Alexander have already proven themselves to be pretty poor negotiators. On the same day that they confirmed that the UK would continue to be liable for 100% of its debts they also announced that there is no way in which the rUK would agree to a formal currency union. Over the last week we have already seen the fallout of that decision, with Sterling sliding several points against both the US Dollar and the Euro. I can guarantee you that when we see the financial markets open tomorrow Sterling will start sliding even further. The financial press are already speculating that if Scotland votes Yes on the 18th then the minute that the markets open on the 19th Sterling will crash.
The reason for this is simple. What investor in their right mind is going to invest in a currency when the person in charge of running it has openly declared that he intends to slash his own economy by 10% overnight?
Right now Sterling is supported by the tax receipts from North Sea oil, meaning that in the event of a currency crisis the UK can back peoples investments by paying them back in oil instead of in cash. The minute that Scotland votes for independence 90% of the UK’s oil revenues disappear and the security that they provide disappears with it. I fully expect to see the rUK experiencing a further downgrading of its credit rating, meaning that it will face yet higher borrowing costs to continue financing its existing debt.
None of this has anything to do with Alex Salmond. It is already coming about thanks entirely to the outright incompetence of your own political leaders.
Which brings us on to the last two phases…
4 – Depression & 5 – Acceptance
I imagine that very rapidly people in the rest of the UK may well start to feel depressed about where things have wound up. This is understandable. Your lives will have been changed by a process that you have had very little control over. When people feel powerless and helpless it is natural to start feeling despondent and powerless.
This is something that you need to pass through really quickly. The truth is that the people have far, far more power than politicians will ever admit. The greatest trick that the British establishment have ever pulled is conning people into believing that they are powerless.
A Yes vote will almost certainly be the greatest opportunity that the people of the UK have ever had to try and re-shape their country. But you need to move fast. Really fast.
My political experience over the last few years has taught me that any movement or campaign has a natural lifespan of around 18 months, after which people start losing faith and losing interest. During this time anything is possible, but if you fail to force through a change before the clock runs out then things settle down, the establishment are able to paper over the cracks and everything goes back to the way it was before.
If you allow your politicians a free reign in dictating terms then they will screw you. You need to move fast and you need to move hard. In Scotland those people currently campaigning for independence will be doing exactly the same thing with the SNP.
This could be the greatest opportunity of all our lifetimes. Let’s support each other to make sure that it happens.
ExFishermanBob
09-09-14, 12:40 PM
Trevally,
I have been thinking that the No campaign's control of the usual media outlets (newspapers, television, radio) has rather back-fired on them. Because of that control, Yes campaigners have had to route around it, using the Web and so on, producing a grass-roots supply of information (plus, of course, actually having a grass-roots organisation).
I also think that they (the No side) are still trying to fight a campaign using methods from the 1980's - leaflets and newspapers work to a certain extent but for younger voters, like my sons it does not - they have never bought a newspaper in their life. Plus many comments the no side make, many of which have been simply lies, can be checked and then referenced later, along with their dismissal, using the web.
For instance, the Wee Blue Book
http://wingsoverscotland.co/weebluebook/ (http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/)
which uses their statements and claims and demolishes them using their own links and statements.
What has to be outstanding now, though, is the sight of the Westminster elite abandoning parliament and Prime Minister's Quesion Time to hurtle up to Scotland in an attempt to "Quebec" Scotland. We are not Quebec. It is not 1995.
God alone knows what the rest of the world thinks when it sees that level of panic.
My opinion? We are the last drunk at the British Empire party, having been the first to arrive - we need to leave and let the host clean up and get back to being a normal country.
Also, I think we left the gas on...
I think that using the former chancellor of the Labour government, the people who were widely credited for creating the situation that preceded the current depression, did not help, neither did deploying everyones favourite dour Scot, Gordon Brown...and now the three monkeys (David 'Hear no corruption' Cameron, Ed 'Speak no strategy' Milliband and Nick 'See no voters' Clegg) have deployed northward.
It's almost as though they want Scotland to vote yes.... :nope:
ExFishermanBob
09-09-14, 01:21 PM
Yes, Beaker, Bert and Ernie, or Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest as I've seen them called. They could make it worse, I mean, you could have UKIP coming up to campaign followed by an Orange Order march through Edinburgh.
Oh, hang on. Those are on Friday and Saturday.
Unbelievable, really. I don't know if I can find analogues for other countries of just what this is like in terms of incompetence or inappropriateness.
Frankly, Laurel and Hardy could run a better campaign. And they've been dead for 50 years.
Here's some thoughts and I have little remembrance that I have written this before
Ah I'll write it anyway
I Hope that both side will respect the outcome of this referendum. I have this nagging feeling that some of the political radical, will not respect the result
A massive demonstration by the loosing side*, battle with the police, massive destruction in the area where the demonstration is. This is what I fear, will arise the following days after the referndum.
* Here I'm thinking of these radical people
Even though I don't have much knowledge about Scotland I do know that in each countries there are political radical people.
Markus
I dunno, I doubt it, especially if the Yes vote wins, if the Yes vote loses...nah, actually nah, I don't think that the youth are that invested in the vote to care either way, so I doubt there'll be any major demonstrations.
The political uproar either way will fuel enough newspaper headlines for a while anyway.
Tribesman
09-09-14, 02:38 PM
Fly the flag.
https://skynews.grabyo.com/g/v/P25wqfTO9M3
:D
ExFishermanBob
09-09-14, 03:04 PM
Well, this is Scotland. Objected to the poll tax and marched against it without riots.
When it was introduced in England a year later, they had riots.
In 2012 there were riots in England. They did not spread to Scotland.
I doubt very much that there will be any riots.
Exactly, Scotland got most of the rioting out of its system in the 17th and 18th century. :yep:
Nah, they were aw doon pub watching fitbah.:Kaleun_Cheers:
ExFishermanBob
09-09-14, 03:24 PM
Actually, if it is, as I expect, a resounding Yes, New Year will be a real riot! So will Burns' Night.
:Kaleun_Cheers::k_rofl::Kaleun_Sleep::Kaleun_Sick:
By the way, if you haven't seen this (assuming you know who Alex Salmond is), it is very funny as it picks up on a number of his traits. No-one seems to know whether it is pro or anti.
https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond
As I understand it they are looking to remain part of the Commonwealth as an independent constitutional monarchy, meaning the Lizzie remains the Queen. Correct me if I've got that wrong though.
Until she dies and then there may be a referendum on the issue.
ExFishermanBob
09-09-14, 03:51 PM
Indeed. Scots are sovereign and get to choose our monarch. And dismiss them - in fact, we could have one for four years, and if they were any good, let them stay for another four years.
Sound familiar?
Trevally.
09-09-14, 04:30 PM
Well worth a ponder http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/yes-vote-in-scotland-most-dangerous-thing-of-all-hope?commentpage=5
I'm not a fan of Monbiot but that's two good articles he's written about the subject in the last couple of weeks. Contrast with Jonathan Freeland a few days ago - 'but I'm a London Based Media person, what does it mean for meeee?'
Yep, not gettin' it, are you Johnny?
Is Farage coming up the morra too? Are they all sharing Clegg's Mini? Bless. There's a sit-com in there somewhere....
ExFishermanBob
09-09-14, 05:00 PM
No - Farage is Friday. He said he's going to save the Union.
Must have changed his mind.
---
Yes, a very good article.
None of this should be a concern should it?http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-10/banks-alarmed-about-increasing-prospect-of-scottish-independence/5733088
:hmmm:
BossMark
09-10-14, 01:19 AM
Latest odds from Billy Hills
No 2\5
Yes 7\4
Skybird
09-10-14, 05:04 AM
The Wetsenr politcla oprder is the order of the big business monopolkists, and the banks, so is the Euro. Scotland falling away from the British flag sends a signal that people can put the usually unquersitoned obedience to these ionto querstion, no matter wqhether the motive and expectaion is relaistic or not. That is why it is so very dangerous for established politics and politicians, and banks.
Established politics are the enemy of freedom. People demanding freedom, are an enemy to such politics.
Just remember what they did to the referendum about the EU constitution. First the rejection there were, were ignored, and a second round was done to overrule the first outcome: and in the second run people no longer were asked, but just confronted with established facts decided on behind locked doors by our lords and feudal masters. Obedience to the new political caste - that is the civil duty. Not freedom and civil rights. Freedom just destroys the monopoles of power and control. How unwanted!
---
But I still have not heard about Scotland's plan about its currency. The Pound they probably cannot keep, and that is good. How can you claim to be independent when you depend on somebody else? How to distribute the astronomic debts of the UK some of which Scotland must take responsiblility for - those that got caused by the difference between Scottish tax money moving south, and money flowing back North to Scotland, that is. A Euro-membership is imo out of the question, at least it should be, for the time being, since it is unclear whether Scotland would be only a net receiver or not. Weak members the Eurozone and the EU in general already has more than enough. We need no more hungry mouths at the table.
So, I have big sympathy, but the thing is very tricky, and most likely will see many Scots suffering losses, at least in the first years. Very innovative, new politics are needed that must be quite different and very realistic from the mainstream practiced everywhere. It is desirable and worthwhile to aspire such dramatical changes, but probably not to be expected realistically.
On the other hand, in the medium or long run the whole Westenr financial system is inevitably collapsing sooner or later. Depending on what comes afterwards, or what gets enforced by our fantastic elites afterwards (possibly just a reincarnation of the same paper sh!t we have had in the past decades since Keynes started his crusade against economic reason), Scotland maybe finds itself getting through the storm better than if it would have stayed with the UK, the Pound, and the eurozone. Difficult to foresee the future, Yoda warns.
The elections impact on the pound is already being felt. Banks don't see that changing in the medium term unless there is clarity about how the money pie will be split up:
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1Y
Trevally.
09-10-14, 06:31 AM
102 and 103
Up here in Scotland these are old topics and have been done to death - a quick search will give many answers/reason
Here is something positive
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10649864_701325799942709_5579228050639148611_n.jpg ?oh=f2660256dd53e21b300b91c72c702d3d&oe=54A31B96
14th richest county - i'm sure we will be ok
102 and 103
Up here in Scotland these are old topics and have been done to death - a quick search will give many answers/reason
Here is something positive
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10649864_701325799942709_5579228050639148611_n.jpg ?oh=f2660256dd53e21b300b91c72c702d3d&oe=54A31B96
14th richest county - i'm sure we will be ok
It's not you the banks are worried about. Unless you stay in the Union. ;)
Jimbuna
09-10-14, 06:41 AM
Whilst I'm hoping the Union will remain intact, the financial possibilities are obviously potentially far reaching whichever road you walk down.
My question in military terms is...what plans for a Scottish navy and air force? (I presume the small number of Scottish regiments will be sufficient for homeland security).
ExFishermanBob
09-10-14, 07:08 AM
It's all in the white paper:
http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/what-would-happen-scottish-defence
Bear in mind these are proposals from the current Scottish Government which might not be the one in power following the immediate post-indy election, so can only be a guide.
If it brings down that B'stard cameron then who am I to stand in the way of the Scots.
ExFishermanBob
09-10-14, 07:28 AM
Actually, I'd like to say that, even in the event of a YES vote, it need not be the end of the Union if people think creatively.
Remember that sovereignty business? That means that the current UK parties can still talk directly to the Scots and the latter can pause independence, with a majority vote, should they wish. The Scottish Government could do nothing to stop them.
Thinking about the current situation with the UK and the European Union, the UK gathers all its income and gives some to the EU (simple, I know) and agrees to be bound by some regulations, etc.
Well, a Scotland that gathered all of its income (rather than having it all taken and some given back) could do the same with the UK - a matter of definition, if you like. A reduced Westminster, sovereignty for all the UK nations, a parliament for England separate from Westminster. That can still be proposed even after a Yes. Sovereignty would also mean any unpleasant regulations from the EU could be overridden by a majority, etc., in any of the countries of the UK. Might satisfy Eurosceptics, that.
Good grief, the 3 leaders of the major parties are here in Scotland. So is QE2. What great serendipitous timing. If they really wanted change they could do so, in fact, they could come out having saved the union, Yes or No. Or more correctly, come out offering a new, looser, modern union, with a definition of "independence" acceptable to all.
Don't hold your breath. They could have offered something like that years ago.
---
Actually, adding to that, we could even form an East India company for the oil, with the dividends paid in Sterling, divided amongst the countries in some way (paid directly). I don't think that Wales and NI are capable of supporting themselves, my apologies if I am wrong and this would allow them to be supported with a degree of independed income. That would stabilise Sterling quite nicely, even if Scotland later decided to go it alone, the company could still stand.
Dread Knot
09-10-14, 07:39 AM
My question in military terms is...what plans for a Scottish navy and air force? (I presume the small number of Scottish regiments will be sufficient for homeland security).
Probably any future independent Scottish navy won't amount to much more than a Coast Guard and a few Fishery defense vessels. Even without any alliances or NATO membership, the rUK would likely have to step in and defend Scotland in the very unlikely event of an invasion or coastal incursion. Letting hostile forces freely land on the British Isles wouldn't exactly be in the interests of the rUK. I imagine it would a similar situation to the secret contingency plans Churchill had for going into Ireland in the event of a German invasion of the Emerald Island in WW2.
Of course, NATO membership would mean accepting the nuclear umbrella, and quite possibly keeping Trident at HMNB Clyde. They want the protection of NATO but also to be able to be all holier than thou when it comes to nuclear weapons. In the long term, it could be a win-win for Scotland, they get protection on the cheap without having to contribute much and they get the luxury to be sanctimonious about it too. :D
I also imagine many countries in the world, from Spain to China to Canada and even the US, would be very uneasy if Scotland broke away from UK democratically and peacefully. Alaska and Hawaii are always talking independence and then there's always Texas and the Old Confederacy to worry about too. Seeing a valuable long-time ally reduced in stature isn't good either.
ExFishermanBob
09-10-14, 08:06 AM
Edit: My apologies. I should have stated that a view from abroad is welcome.
"holier than thou". Nice. There are many non-nuclear members of NATO. Only 3 have nuclear weapons, the 25 others do not.
As for the navy and its plans, well, we are already unprotected.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8718-russian-ship-in-moray-firth-uk-intelligence-was-alerted-by-social-media-admits-hammond
Previously, Scottish fishermen alterted the MOD and it only took over 24 hours for a navy vessel to arrive.
Lastly, of course, current military assets were partly paid for using Scottish money, and thus partly belong to Scotland. By the way, you might want to look up where the last UK aircraft carrier was launched.
Dread Knot
09-10-14, 08:46 AM
Lastly, of course, current military assets were partly paid for using Scottish money, and thus partly belong to Scotland. By the way, you might want to look up where the last UK aircraft carrier was launched.
I am aware of where the Queen Elizabeth was built. However, in the event of independence the rUK likely wouldn't be sending future orders for military ships to Scottish yards, beyond those currently being built and those Scottish yards wouldn't be able to offer the complete package of a fully fitted ship for export, or the training available at places like HMS Collingwood or HMS Sultan, which is a key part of why UK exports have been successful.
That's not to say Scottish Shipbuilding couldn't be successful post independence. No one doubts the skill that's available up there. But it needs a proper short term and long term plan on how to keep thriving post independence, which the SNP's current defense policy really doesn't offer.
Long term on naval defense I would certainly expect Scotland to be in the UN and I think it likely she would have to contribute to peace keeping and maritime patrols and the like, and therefore although a Type 45 is probably overkill a small fleet of three or four frigates of the Type 23 ilk is likely to be useful. I don't think a navy of say 3 frigates, a dozen patrol boats of varying capabilities a couple of supply boats and some mine sweepers is excessive for a country of an independent Scotland's size, GDP and coastline. If anything it is less than say Holland, Denmark, Belgium and a fair bit less than Norway and Sweden. The Republic of Ireland has a couple of offshore patrol boats that are frigate sized too.
I don't see Scotland ever needing a carrier. Scotland is carrier enough for the area.
Jimbuna
09-10-14, 10:14 AM
I can't rid myself of the thought that too much is being gambled by so few on so little.
The possible true extent will be revealed should the Yes vote win and then protracted negotiations commence in earnest.
The negotiations themselves are going to take well over two years I'd wager, if not longer. :hmmm:
The idea that an Independent Scotland would not be admitted to NATO is a strange one given our position in the North Atlantic, especially given Russia's current fascination with sabre rattling.
Someone on the radio made a good point about Faslane a little while ago. The SNP might not want a UK Naval base on the Clyde but in the event of independence and elections within the new country, it might not be up to them. That's a very important point: This isn't about the SNP and what they want, it's about the Scottish people and what they want. And by 'Scottish people' I mean the residents. I have more than a few English friends who live here who are planning to vote Yes.
As for the idea of having a 'foreign' base of the Forth of Clyde? Well, the Americans seemed to have managed it for a long time. I personally have no problem with it, I just don't want the nuclear weapons here.
Whilst I'm hoping the Union will remain intact, the financial possibilities are obviously potentially far reaching whichever road you walk down.
My question in military terms is...what plans for a Scottish navy and air force? (I presume the small number of Scottish regiments will be sufficient for homeland security).
Personally, I think a sensible option for an independent Scotland is to emulate Eire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Forces_%28Ireland%29
As for NATO membership? Forget it, no point as they're wouldn't be enough to be worth contributing.
In addition, the US won't want another small nation in NATO freeloading, especially one that's just given them a black eye on a major policy point. They want the UK as a nuclear power in NATO along side them (France co-operates, but doesn't co-ordinate), any threat to that will potentially leave the US alone. The US public will not tolerate that.
IMHO, as regards the currency, Salmond is taking a dangerous gamble.
Regardless of what might be economically prudent, or sensible, the population of the rest of the UK will not allow it. I can't see the likes of Jim, Steed, Bossmark or Oberon (sorry guys, your just handy!:O:) being comfortable with another country using the pound in the way proposed. Multiply that to the rest of the population and you have a Very Bad Thing for Scotland. Push comes to shove, rUK will throw Scotland under the bus out of self interest and preservation.
No, if Scotland votes yes, be prepared to set up a new, independent currency. With it's own independent central bank.
That's independence, not some half baked currency union that leaves Scotland vulnerable - see the Euro crisis.
The latest poll by Survation shows 53% towards No:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-poll-no-vote-lead
What I've written is all very negative, I'm aware of that. But something this huge needs to be voted on using your head, not your heart. Or hope and dreams.
The UK has been a great thing in the past. In can be again if we ALL work together, rather than protecting our own little bit of turf.
The referendum vote has politically radicalised the people of Scotland, very good thing. The English just need to get off their backsides and actually start participating in the democratic process again instead of just letting the Oxbridge crowd take over again.
Demand that the candidates you nominate actually represent the communities they wish serve. Demand more power for local authorities so they can serve their communities again.
Put the fear of god into Westminster - it can be done!:rock:
Mike.:up:
Interesting thing about the polls:
Up until last weekend every poll, no matter how close was reported as a clear win for No as long as No was ahead. When Yes went ahead last week via the YouGov poll it was reported by the BBC, the Telegraph and others as 'Too Close To Call'. Now, today, with the Daily Record Poll (a paper, lets remember, with a readership largely based in the Pro-union side of Glasgow) showing a lead to NO hardly more convincing than the Yes lead last weekend, it's being claimed we'll all be voting NO next weekend.
I'm bored of it now. It's a week to go. We'll see. As for currency union, I'd be much happier with a new Scottish central bank rather than having the Bank of England with a major role.
As for NATO, as one of my colleagues said today when we were talking about it: 'Lets offer Faslane to Russia and see what happens.' :D
Put the fear of god into Westminster - it can be done!:rock:
Mike.:up:
It would be nice, but I think people have become disillusioned with a system that they do not think they can change...hence this sudden swing towards UKIP (although the doomsayer media has helped with that, aka Daily Fail, Diana Excess, Torygraph, etc) and with the three main parties being as bland as beige wallpaper there's absolutely nothing to galvanise people into it any more. Politics is seen as a rich mans game which the common man cannot enter, and you take a look at any MP and you see why that it's seen that way.
We could take a lesson from the President of Uruguay. :yep:
The question is, will they want to leave the British forces and join the Scottish forces?
I doubt it.
With major redundancies from the UK armed forces over the next few years many of them might not be in a position to say no.
Stealhead
09-10-14, 04:49 PM
Personally, I do not think the Scottish in a case of a yes vote will not give two hoots about the USA. As a Scottish voter in this election (who will vote no), nobody gives a toss about the USA. Apart from maybe exports.
You are correct about that. I recall one year in high school it took several classmates to correctly point out where Florida was if the typical American has a hard time finding their nation and home state on a map they likely do not care all too much about Scotland. You'd be surprised how many people think we are at war with Iran or that call Iraqis "Iraqistanies" or "Iraqians"
The ones that do know in most cases are likely not that directly concerned which way the vote goes so far as how it might effect the US anyway. The Scottish descendants that live in the Appalachians already have a strong history of self reliance so they would likely support their ancestors to vote for independence.
Dread Knot
09-10-14, 04:57 PM
What kills me are the number of Americans who think a "yes" vote somehow avenges Mel Gibson's death in Braveheart.
Hooray for Holyrood. :doh:
What kills me are the number of Americans who think a "yes" vote somehow avenges Mel Gibson's death in Braveheart.
Hooray for Holyrood. :doh:
I wonder what way Groundskeeper Willie would vote?
Dread Knot
09-10-14, 05:10 PM
In the event of a yes vote win, it's goonae be time to drag out all the well worn Scottish caricatures. :D
Hit the vaguely Highland dirge.
"We did it---You and I."
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_U0cemexQ1k/TyqRHNyDAKI/AAAAAAAAMYU/mIbX1y4uqTg/s400/Scotty.jpg
Stealhead
09-10-14, 05:30 PM
http://i1.squidoocdn.com/resize_square/squidoo_images/320/draft_lens8782031module76860991photo_4_1262368003G roundskeeper_Willie1.gif
Yay!
Dread Knot
09-10-14, 05:36 PM
Sean Connery confronts the Dr. No vote.
http://dustedoff.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/pic23.jpg
Dread Knot
09-10-14, 05:46 PM
...and proceeds to kick it's non-Tartan butt.
http://www.exfo.com/PageFiles/39304/dr-no_13.jpg
Onkel Neal
09-10-14, 06:51 PM
What kills me are the number of Americans who think a "yes" vote somehow avenges Mel Gibson's death in Braveheart.
Hooray for Holyrood. :doh:
:06: Wait.....
Buddahaid
09-10-14, 07:23 PM
What kills me are the number of Americans who think a "yes" vote somehow avenges Mel Gibson's death in Braveheart.
Hooray for Holyrood. :doh:
Well it's all we know about Canadians.
I'm interested to see if the vote is at all a topic here.
http://www.scotsindixon.org/games_2.html
I'll be part of the entertainment in Avalon Rising and we'll also be the main backing for the ceilidh. Should be fun.
Yay!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iusUq4-f5U
Vonross
09-11-14, 02:04 AM
yea, dump there British Buts ! I am for removing that scums controle once and for all...the sooner we get rid of the British Empire and there loyalist ideals the better..We have them here in Canada too...:nope:..They have a lot to account for all over the world ! After all they did start the idea of a Consintration camp !
(The Bore war) and look where that went...:down: No my vote is to DUMP the british, and end GREAT BRIT...chok ...No more great ...lol about time..:rock:
speaking for all the celts who sufferd under them !
Von
And dump the English language too it seems... :hmmm:
Cybermat47
09-11-14, 02:19 AM
yea, dump there British Buts ! I am for removing that scums controle once and for all...the sooner we get rid of the British Empire and there loyalist ideals the better..We have them here in Canada too...:nope:..They have a lot to account for all over the world ! After all they did start the idea of a Consintration camp !
(The Bore war) and look where that went...:down: No my vote is to DUMP the british, and end GREAT BRIT...chok ...No more great ...lol about time..:rock:
speaking for all the celts who sufferd under them !
Von
The Scottish are British. I think you're confusing Britain with England.
And there isn't any British Empire any more.
And you're posting on a forum that has loads of English people on it.
And you're speaking the language of the people you just said you hate.
Trevally.
09-11-14, 02:32 AM
Dam those BANKERS!
They lost our money and now they are trying to kill my soul:wah:
Reporting Scotland is back on the "We are too wee, too poor and too stupid" :arrgh!:
Project fear in full effect
And you're speaking the language of the people you just said you hate.
No. He's writing gibberish.
Vonross
09-11-14, 02:44 AM
But .....they force that on our people..if you where caught speaking anything else you could lose you head ! As a result my natural speach is dead ,,almost anyway....it was forced on us for a long long time, and yes I do not like them. for they point at the Germans and say BAD for what they did...Killed 6 million yes that is bad ,,,But not as bad as what the British did to the Irish 3/4 off all Irish wiped out.....Some of us have a right to hate them.... As for a scott he is Scottish ..always will be (Unless he is named Camble) Us Celts NEVER hold onto history ...WE HARBOR IT So as I see it anything that hurts them the better for the rest of us ,and Scotland needs to have it her way and her way alone....anything else you would like to know?
Von
Yes. Why so angry? 3 posts to your name all with vitriol dialled up to 11. Most people just start of saying hi. Do you walk up to people and start telling them you don't like them before getting to know them?
Vonross
09-11-14, 03:00 AM
yep got just a wee bit tight on this one...Sorry all , I need to let go of the hate..just burning me up anyway...anyway ,,,Sorry all...:/\\!!
Personally, I do not think the Scottish in a case of a yes vote will not give two hoots about the USA. As a Scottish voter in this election (who will vote no), nobody gives a toss about the USA. Apart from maybe exports.
Sorry mate, but what the US public want wont matter in this, it is a private in country debate, the USA does not rule the world (although they may feel they do)
I do not care what Americans feel about what I am doing, I am only interested in me, my family and my country.
But all in all your post in sensible, apart from this bit
Well I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote down - in a bit of a hurry when I did.
What I meant was that the US public won't tolerate the idea of the US being the sole nuclear power in NATO, having to support a bunch of Europeans who they feel don't pull their weight and don't appreciate them.
Bye bye NATO? Possibly.
Mike.:hmm2:
Dam those BANKERS!
They lost our money and now they are trying to kill my soul:wah:
Reporting Scotland is back on the "We are too wee, too poor and too stupid" :arrgh!:
Project fear in full effect
Edit: Deleted what I wrote earlier - don't want to give ISIL an idea.....
BTW. RBS and Loyds will change to London in event of yes. John Lewis say prices may rise eventually. My own employers (not saying who!) have also intimated to staff that major investment will cease in Scotland should yes vote occur. Currently two potential large stores in Aberdeen and north east on hold until vote result in.
Mike.
Tribesman
09-11-14, 04:24 AM
yea, dump there British Buts ! I am for removing that scums controle once and for all...the sooner we get rid of the British Empire and there loyalist ideals the better..We have them here in Canada too...:nope:..They have a lot to account for all over the world ! After all they did start the idea of a Consintration camp !
(The Bore war) and look where that went...:down: No my vote is to DUMP the british, and end GREAT BRIT...chok ...No more great ...lol about time..:rock:
speaking for all the celts who sufferd under them !
Von
But .....they force that on our people..if you where caught speaking anything else you could lose you head ! As a result my natural speach is dead ,,almost anyway....it was forced on us for a long long time, and yes I do not like them. for they point at the Germans and say BAD for what they did...Killed 6 million yes that is bad ,,,But not as bad as what the British did to the Irish 3/4 off all Irish wiped out.....Some of us have a right to hate them.... As for a scott he is Scottish ..always will be (Unless he is named Camble) Us Celts NEVER hold onto history ...WE HARBOR IT So as I see it anything that hurts them the better for the rest of us ,and Scotland needs to have it her way and her way alone....anything else you would like to know?
Von
What a pile of absolute drivel:doh:
Trevally.
09-11-14, 04:47 AM
Lot of talk today about bank HQs moving to London is there is no shared pound.
Turns out is would only be an address change and not a physical move
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10698590_863533596990885_6316373440274336693_n.png ?oh=13e8e70a16f64afeb053de29bdd4b7a5&oe=5483166B&__gda__=1418369250_60e99486622e54d36d18332c46bece1 8
Jimbuna
09-11-14, 05:54 AM
yep got just a wee bit tight on this one...Sorry all , I need to let go of the hate..just burning me up anyway...anyway ,,,Sorry all...:/\\!!
And this post is the one that saved your bacon....you have made it quite clear where your loyalties lie but so have others on this thread in a less aggressive and therefore more acceptable fashion.
You would be well advised to debate here in a tone that members here are more accustomed to.
I thank you in advance for your future cooperation.
Jimbuna
09-11-14, 06:15 AM
Lot of talk today about bank HQs moving to London is there is no shared pound.
Turns out is would only be an address change and not a physical move
I wouldn't be so sure (admittedly RBS is approx. 82% government owned)...you can add Standard Life, BP and no doubt a growing list in the days to come.
The governor of the Bank Of England has repeated the point there will be no currency union and he as well as those above have already set up contingency plans.
I honestly hope the people of Scotland vote with their heads and not their hearts on this because Salmond appears to be looking at the economic situation as it is today and not of tomorrow and the possible financial repercussions in future weeks and months.
Without a fixed currency of her own and the banking sector to underwrite it Scotland could soon find herself in queer street.
A couple questions I'd like to ask is....Why haven't the Scots residing in England been given a vote yet foreign immigrants residing in Scotland have?
Why have sixteen year-olds been given a vote?
Whilst the answer to the two questions above may be obvious depending on ones point of view I believe it is also a fair question to ask why the English, Welsh and Irish can't vote, after all, they will be affected too won't they?
I have purposely chosen not to quote/copy paste from the abundance of articles for and against on the internet but rather offer the above as my own understanding and assessment of the situation.
In finishing....Salmond is gambling too much on what resources he believes are at his disposal. There are too many unanswered or prepared for outcomes, no Plan B.
Whatever the outcome I wish Scotland all the very best for the future but Salmond may find himself in all the history books for the wrong reasons and Scotland deserves much better than that.
Rockstar
09-11-14, 10:27 AM
... But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling.
General William Tecumseh Sherman
Now it may not be the national feeling in the U.K. But I wonder what will happen in the long run if Scotland suceeds in parting ways with the Union today. Will it stop there or just keep falling apart a little at a time until there is nothig left of it.
Dread Knot
09-11-14, 10:35 AM
Now it may not be the national feeling in the U.K. But I wonder what will happen in the long run if Scotland suceeds in parting ways with the Union today. Will it stop there or just keep falling apart a little at a time until there is nothig left of it.
I'm positive that civil war over an independence vote isn't an option. This is a legal and binding election not some hothead secession movement. I think England will eventually finds it's own path if Scotland ( or even Wales) leaves.
Well I'm British with Scottish, Irish and Welsh bits thrown in.
Next weeks vote is to determine the future of the United Kingdom.
Just cannot understand how less than 10% of the UK population can determine its future.
But we have been here before....there have been two referendums in Northern Ireland to see if the folks there want to stay part of the UK and NI. Mainland Brits have never had the opportunity to vote on this either
Rockstar
09-11-14, 01:12 PM
I'm positive that civil war over an independence vote isn't an option. This is a legal and binding election not some hothead secession movement. I think England will eventually finds it's own path if Scotland ( or even Wales) leaves.
Hey, it doesn't have to be a hotheaded movement like the Arab Spring. Just asking how far will this go if Scotland leaves the Union? I would hazard a guess a yes vote by the masses is primarily fueled by dumbed down political slogans about freedom sprinkled with potraits of mel gibson in blue face paint. I suspect its just those few leading the masses that really have anything to gain. Who are they?
Lot of talk today about bank HQs moving to London is there is no shared pound.
Turns out is would only be an address change and not a physical move
Sorry Trevally, but I'm with Jimbuna on this.
Besides, that statement is designed to calm fears, but I don't believe it. Sorry.
RBS, Loyds, Clydesdale and Standard Life. They can't be taxed if they aren't HQ'd in Scotland.:down:
Check your PM, please. I have a question on another issue for ya!:salute:
Mike.
Hey, it doesn't have to be a hotheaded movement like the Arab Spring. Just asking how far will this go if Scotland leaves the Union? I would hazard a guess a yes vote by the masses is primarily fueled by dumbed down political slogans about freedom sprinkled with potraits of mel gibson in blue face paint. I suspect its just those few leading the masses that really have anything to gain. Who are they?
Waayyyy more sophisticated than that. Way, way more.
Basic who's who:
http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/whos-who-in-the-scottish-referendum-campaign
Yes vote site: http://www.yesscotland.net/
No vote site: http://bettertogether.net/
Mike.:)
Dread Knot
09-11-14, 01:35 PM
Hey, it doesn't have to be a hotheaded movement like the Arab Spring. Just asking how far will this go if Scotland leaves the Union? I would hazard a guess a yes vote by the masses is primarily fueled by dumbed down political slogans about freedom sprinkled with potraits of mel gibson in blue face paint. I suspect its just those few leading the masses that really have anything to gain. Who are they?
Here's a BBC article that might give you a quick low-down.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26550736
Dread Knot
09-11-14, 02:06 PM
And here's another article that sort of gives in in-depth account of how this current push towards Scottish independence has it roots in the 1970s.
http://www.businessinsider.com/facts-and-fiction-on-the-scottish-independence-vote-2014-9
BossMark
09-11-14, 02:22 PM
There was a further setback for the Scottish Independence campaign today.
The Loch Ness monster has stated he's relocating to the Lake District in the event of a Yes vote.
Dread Knot
09-11-14, 02:26 PM
There was a further setback for the Scottish Independence campaign today.
The Loch Ness monster has stated he's relocating to the Lake District in the event of a Yes vote.
The Windermere Monster is gonna sound...weird.
Trevally.
09-11-14, 02:28 PM
There was a further setback for the Scottish Independence campaign today.
The Loch Ness monster has stated he's relocating to the Lake District in the event of a Yes vote.
It is only the PO box that is moving.
You will can still see the real thing at Ness on the 19th:up:
nikimcbee
09-11-14, 02:29 PM
So if Scotland leaves, will Britain invade for the oil?
The Scottish are British.
Lol, you wouldn't BELIEVE how often I've had to explain that to some people over the last couple of years.
BossMark
09-11-14, 02:51 PM
Can you imagine a Scottish independence day?
The aliens thought Will Smith was tough, wait till they try invading Glasgow on a Friday night.
Jimbuna
09-11-14, 03:04 PM
So if Scotland leaves, will Britain invade for the oil?
Does the oil actually belong to 'Scotland'?
An entire debate in its own right.
Rockstar
09-11-14, 03:37 PM
Waayyyy more sophisticated than that. Way, way more.
Basic who's who:
http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/whos-who-in-the-scottish-referendum-campaign
Yes vote site: http://www.yesscotland.net/
No vote site: http://bettertogether.net/
Mike.:)
Whatever your position is, I tend to think we agree or disagree because the few tell us exactly what we want to hear. Like Goering said during the Nuremberg Trial: ... But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.
If Scotland secedes what difference will it really make to anyone other than the few pop stars and politicians leading this campaign? Letting go the shackles to tie one on once a year for independence day? That'll show the queen!
Well, Scotland has already got one guaranteed alliance... :doh:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11089388/North-Korea-backs-Scottish-independence.html
Dread Knot
09-11-14, 04:14 PM
Well, Scotland has already got one guaranteed alliance... :doh:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11089388/North-Korea-backs-Scottish-independence.html
If this is the case, then Scotland better be expecting Dennis Rodman showing up for lots of rounds of golf at St. Andrews. :dead:
Rockstar
09-11-14, 04:29 PM
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/4/secession-europecrimeascotlandquebec.html
Who would benefit most from the secession of Scotland... ? The answer is simple: The beneficiaries would first and foremost be the leaders of secessionist parties whose aim is to take over the governments of the newly independent states. If they were rulers of independent and sovereign states, their policies and actions — including the use of coercion and force — as well as their remuneration would not be subject to any higher or “foreign” sovereign authority or oversight. In addition, as the new state takes over the functions of the old — including those of diplomacy — there would be lots of new job opportunities in the expanding state bureaucracy. Local small and medium businesses would profit, too, as their competitors from outside the region withdraw across new state borders.
Tribesman
09-11-14, 04:40 PM
Does the oil actually belong to 'Scotland'?
Yes. If it becomes an independent state all mineral rights associated with its territory belong to it.
An entire debate in its own right.
Not really. An exclusive economic zone is exclusive and the mineral rights belong to the state in question.
The only debate would be about compensation and renegotiating with those that currently operate leases on the rights.
The swings and roundabouts of polling? Or a true reflection of sentiment?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-12/support-for-scots-independence-slips-behind-unionists/5738968
Either way it looks like its going to be a close call next week.
Looks like at least one bank is considering a move in the event of a yes vote. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-12/nab-clydesdale-bank-plans-to-leave-independent-scotland/5738822
Jimbuna
09-12-14, 06:10 AM
Well, Scotland has already got one guaranteed alliance... :doh:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11089388/North-Korea-backs-Scottish-independence.html
How very embarrassing to be associated with such a fine outstanding country, one that respects and adheres to the human rights of its inhabitants.
Now don't get me started on North Korea :O:
I found this piece of particular interest:
He said it is unlikely that North Korea will seek to establish an embassy in Edinburgh – due to cost concerns – although he added that he expects Edinburgh to have a diplomatic presence in Pyongyang through the existing British Embassy.
Oh really :hmmm:
Jimbuna
09-12-14, 06:12 AM
Perhaps TarJak should forward his post on to Salmond...eggs in one basket etc. etc.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2242258&postcount=1
I do not think it is bye bye NATO and I cannot see NATO not allowing Scotland to join either.
I base that on the following reasons.
Its not a new land mass, it is already covered by NATO. The only difference is that it is now an independent state.
Nuclear weapons will not be lost, they will be just relocated to another part of the rUK.
Scotland is in a strategic place for European and Atlantic defence.
You're point about lack of nuclear powers in Europe. I don't truly understand the point in what you are saying.
The UN security council, permanent members when set up, UK, USA, France, Russia (then Soviet Union) and China, were the only holders of nuclear weapons at that time. The idea was to limit capabilities to these states. Remember the issues when India and Pakistan started developing weapons. Or even now over North Korea and in the past Iran, who are trying or tried to develop nuclear capabilities.
If I was a US citizen, I would personally be more happy the fact there are less states who have these weapons, meaning less likely having to fire these weapons in anger. I think we all agree that would be a disaster and no one will win.
The danger is that more states have these weapons, when would be the tipping point when they would use them. Today, Ukraine would they be tempted to use them? A few years ago, when would Yugoslavia used them, when the country fell apart?
That's my thoughts.
You haven't had to deal with hardline American Republican's then, especially the TEA Party crowd.
I have and it's an eye opener - the worst of them make the Tories look like communists! :o They very much feel that Europe spends too much on welfare when that money should be spent on defence, amongst others.
What I've also discovered, both from that source but also military analysis sites is that the US DoD really, really dislikes the idea of mini-states with "bonsai" militaries freeloading in NATO. If you can't pull your weight in the Alliance, you shouldn't be in it. Hence there's considerable frustration and resentment that most of the EU countries have slashed their defence budgets since the 90's, further increasing the perceived burden on the US. If, worst case scenario the rUK had to abandon it's nuclear deterrent (which isn't exactly an independent one anyway) because they couldn't find a suitable base in rUK waters, for whatever reason, that would, as I wrote earlier leave the US as sole nuclear armed NATO power. America wouldn't like being lumbered with that - it would increase the feeling that the Euros were freeloading at the US's expense. Lastly, French nukes aren't currently at NATO's disposal.
The US may not block Scotland joining NATO, but they will (and do, apparently) have grave reservations about both Scotland's no-nuclear weapons-on-Scottish-soil stance and the smallness of it's proposed armed forces. The former is at odds with US strategic interests - look what happened to New Zealand when it prohibited nuclear armed and propelled vessels entering it's waters. Salmond isn't proposing that, but he will have to accept something nuclear in the vicinity. Like the base at Faslane staying where it is for far longer then he's commited himself politically. US support for Scottish membership of NATO may entail accepting the continued existence of Faslane and it's support infrastructure, similar to the US base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
Also if a TEA Party type gets in to the White House (Sarah Palin nearly made it to Vice-President) it's possible that support for NATO from such an administration would be very much conditional on Europe pulling it's weight. That could mean forcing countries to spend the required by treaty 2% GDP on defence. Failure to do so could also result in them pulling the plug on the Alliance and leaving Europe to the wolves. Some do think like that.
Can Scotland afford to have 2% military spending, on top of everything else? Where would you get the manpower for a large armed force from a population of 5 million? The Scandinavian countries and Israel all use the national service/conscription then reservist model. Conscription would be just a tad unpopular with the younger generation here and can't see the SNP adopting it except under severe duress.
That's why I wrote earlier that NATO membership wouldn't be good idea for an independent Scotland. It's not helped by the SNP not giving any real, proper indication as to how advanced and developed their geopolitical thinking is. I don't think they've given it much thought.
This is all worst case scenario, but imagining possible unintended consequences is a very good thing to do.
Mike.:hmmm:
Skybird
09-12-14, 09:49 AM
States like Spain and Belgium, even Italy, will give an independent Scotland a hell if it tries to get into the EU, these states, like all states, consider the people living in given regions to be their property and thus will not allow Flanders, Venice or Katalonia falling away. Cooperating with scotland would mean a precedence and invitation that these governments at all costs will avoid.
And the Scots? On voti8ng day they will vote not by heart but the money they count in their wallets. I would encourage a Yay, but I expect to see a Nay as the final outcome. A close result, nevertheless a Nay.
Cameron has pormised concessions in recent days. These are demands by the Scots that during negotiating the referendum Cameron has strictly opposed and strictly refused to ever accept. If the Scots vote Nay, he will try to weasel out of the concessions he just promised, no doubt. And he will probably be successful.
To no longer being attached to an economy that has the paper money sector as its biggest "economic" :) factor, has its charms when considering the very likely scenario of the paper money sooner or later blowing up. They should go without Pound or Euro. But having voted Nay in the referendum, and possibly even getting betrayed for the concessions Cameron promised, possibly Scots will regret that they did not voted Yay while they had a chance. After this close race now, Westminster will dance with all devils in hell to make sure there will never be a referendum allowed again.
Imagine a world with no states and politicians, where neighbouring counties and small local regions directly and freely cooperate on things of shared interest, infrastructure for example, and where trading stuff also gets directly negotiated between neighbouring small communities, without any political gangsters in a distant city interfering.
The profanity of shortsighted monetarian interest will not allow this chance to be tried.
And even if the Scots would vote Yes - they tehn would be confronted with the poltical parasites ruling their new nation with the same to be expected symptoms of degeneration and abuse setting in sooner or later. Probably sooner, since the Scots do not plan to abandon the paper money system alltogether.
In principle, nothing has changed since the medieval. people still get owned and possessed by a caste of dominating "elites". People still beleive that one group of people can give freedom to another group of people, or could withhold that freedom.
And when people allow getting owned and believe the above - do they even deserve freedom?
Simple answer: No.
Jimbuna
09-12-14, 12:10 PM
And the Scots? On voti8ng day they will vote not by heart but the money they count in their wallets. I would encourage a Yay, but I expect to see a Nay as the final outcome. A close result, nevertheless a Nay.
When all is said and done that is exactly what it all boils down to...voting with head or heart.
My own personal opinion is that the result will be a close NO vote.
Perhaps TarJak should forward his post on to Salmond...eggs in one basket etc. etc.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2242258&postcount=1
I doubt that would make any difference.
Eichhörnchen
09-13-14, 02:34 AM
A close "No" vote (my expectation, too) would at any rate give the SNP a big stick with which to threaten Westminster in the future when things aren't going their way.
Herr-Berbunch
09-13-14, 04:49 AM
A roughly 50/50 split is no basis for making any nationality decisions. Civil wars have started with less of a close call.
Interesting thread, should've had a poll to see international opinion.
Trevally.
09-13-14, 05:22 AM
Two short clips
The first, Bonnie Greer gives her view on impartiality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYv6sRS3BwE&feature=youtu.be
The second is a must watch:D
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794377223917152
u crank
09-13-14, 05:29 AM
The second is a must watch:D
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794377223917152
:rotfl2:
Jimbuna
09-13-14, 06:44 AM
I notice there is no fixed day for an outcome announcement.
The polls close at 10pm on 18 September and the count will begin immediately, but Elections Scotland is decidedly cagey about when the result will be announced. "Factors such as geography, weather or road conditions are outwith the control of the COs [counting officers] and CCO [the chief counting officer]," it says. "It should be clear from this analysis that there can be no firm prediction of a time when the result will be known." Some of the highland and island constituencies in particular may take some time to collect all their ballot boxes and confirm their results, especially if the contest is close. The national outcome will not be announced until all 32 local counts have confirmed their results, which may mean that no declaration is made until the following morning.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/scottish-independence/55716/pros-and-cons-of-scottish-independence-the-referendum-countdown
I notice there is no fixed day for an outcome announcement.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/scottish-independence/55716/pros-and-cons-of-scottish-independence-the-referendum-countdown
It's ok Jim, I hear they've brought in the experts from the 2000 Florida election to help. :yep:
http://www.standupamericaus.org/sua/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Counting-Chads.jpg
Von Tonner
09-13-14, 07:36 AM
:har:
Out of the two campaigns the "No" campaign clearly is using more fear threats and blackmail. Typical of big money throwing its weight about joining the silk tongue BS politician scum.
Clearly this is the only way politician's get their jollies, sad.....:nope:
Von Tonner
09-13-14, 09:25 AM
I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down!
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/745/hbhap3.jpg
Jimbuna
09-13-14, 09:30 AM
Out of the two campaigns the "No" campaign clearly is using more fear threats and blackmail. Typical of big money throwing its weight about joining the silk tongue BS politician scum.
Clearly this is the only way politician's get their jollies, sad.....:nope:
Oh really :hmmm:
Scottish independence: Nationalist leader Jim Sillars threatens pro-union companies with 'day of reckoning' after independence
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-fear-and-loathing-in-the-battle-for-scotland-9730442.html
SNP making 'threatening phone calls', say pro-Union businesses.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100250572/fear-in-the-shadow-of-salmonds-ire/
nikimcbee
09-13-14, 09:38 AM
So everything north of the Tyne is Scotland now right?:hmmm::D:har:
Jimbuna
09-13-14, 09:45 AM
About 70-80 miles north.
Oh really :hmmm:
There has been more of it on the No campaign than on the Yes. Comes down to who can throw the biggest wettest freshest steaming pile of cow dung and that so far goes to the No campaign.
Jimbuna
09-13-14, 10:04 AM
Whatever you say....Hamish
http://s3.postimg.org/5rpew8zr7/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
Von Tonner
09-14-14, 05:22 AM
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/674/podNKi.jpg
cpj93070
09-14-14, 05:30 AM
nay
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/674/podNKi.jpg
:har: Only problem with it is Salmond's backside isn't big enough to account for the.... rubbish he's come out with.:hmph:
nay
My thought as well.:up:
If Cameron had been smart, he should have left the devo-max option on the ballot paper.
But, he's not smart.....
Even assuming we get a No vote on the 18th, it will be a narrow one and only kicks the issue into the long grass for another generation.
My only hope is that the Westminster lot actually come through on their promise of more powers in the event of a No. If they do, it'll give us a chance to see if the SNP have the ability to actually run an economy in a sensible manner without spending themselves into a black hole and at least it has a safety net in case they do.
I'll be very blunt here. The state sector in Scotland is far too large in relation to the rest of the economy, with way too many people in state employ. That needs to be cut down so it isn't such an unproductive burden on the rest of the Scottish economy. They also need to get as many unemployed people back into the workplace as possible.
What they (and the UK government) also have to do is abandon this travesty called the "low skill/low wage" economic model. "High skill/high wage" is the only way to ensure a robust tax base to at least help cover government expenditure and to raise people's standard of living.
If the SNP want to emulate Scandinavia, they have to go all the way and that includes the high taxation model the Nordic countries have. That means High skill/high wage/high tax and that's going to take years to shift to.
The irony here is that if it's a Yes, I hope those who vote for that option realise that an independent Scotland will see austerity even more severe than what the Tories have done in order to balance the books, even with the oil revenue.
Mike.
BossMark
09-14-14, 10:59 AM
I got chatting to a Scottish guy in the pub.
I asked, "Well then, is it a yes or no?"
He replied, "Look mate, I'm not lifting my kilt, so bugga off!"
Eichhörnchen
09-14-14, 10:59 AM
We can't any longer use the Union flag in its present form, can we? The Saltire will have to go from the flag in the event of a Yes.
(Edit): enjoyed that joke just now, BossMark
This flipping dribble really is pissing me off now, roll on Friday.
I just don't give a toss as both camps are acting like a load of b'stards.
Jimbuna
09-14-14, 11:10 AM
Not long to go now....all will be revealed.
Sailor Steve
09-14-14, 11:15 AM
We can't any longer use the Union flag in its present form, can we? The Saltire will have to go from the flag in the event of a Yes.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209642&highlight=scotland+leaving
Not long to go now....all will be revealed.
If I could jump into a time machine set for next Friday I would, both sides are using threats blackmail lies you name it they are doing it. Both sides are acting like children well I say children I yet to see a different word for what they are getting up too. And I sick of these bloody polls as well, up and down like whores draws....
The media in this country just love ramming it down your gullet every second of the day. I only listen to the radio news which is short and I'm already bored with that. If I watched TV news my TV would have been out the window a long time ago.
Rant over for now....
BossMark
09-14-14, 11:22 AM
I just hope the no vote just wipe that smug grin of Salmonds face
Kptlt. Neuerburg
09-14-14, 08:51 PM
http://i1.squidoocdn.com/resize_square/squidoo_images/320/draft_lens8782031module76860991photo_4_1262368003G roundskeeper_Willie1.gif
Yay!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk
Jimbuna
09-15-14, 05:54 AM
If I could jump into a time machine set for next Friday I would, both sides are using threats blackmail lies you name it they are doing it. Both sides are acting like children well I say children I yet to see a different word for what they are getting up too. And I sick of these bloody polls as well, up and down like whores draws....
The media in this country just love ramming it down your gullet every second of the day. I only listen to the radio news which is short and I'm already bored with that. If I watched TV news my TV would have been out the window a long time ago.
Rant over for now....
Must agree...but also admit I can't resist channel hopping between BBC and Sky News every evening.
Trevally.
09-15-14, 02:37 PM
Economic case for Scottish independence
An interesting view http://reportingthereferendum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/economic-case-for-scottish-independence.html
Jimbuna
09-15-14, 05:01 PM
Go for it....no currency, no automatic right to NATO membership or the nuclear acceptance that goes with it, no automatic acceptance to the EU, oil and gas demand at an all-time low for three years.
Good luck....the Scottish population is worth more than that.
Don't forget to post here in a year or two.
Von Tonner
09-16-14, 06:17 AM
A writer here in SA wrote this very witty intro to his piece on the up coming vote. His article is well worth a read.
"In thinking about this upcoming Scottish independence vote, it is pretty ironic that the archetypical British secret agent was portrayed on film by an ardent Scottish nationalist – Sean Connery, while Scotland’s great hero of the 13th century, William Wallace, was played by a misanthropic Aussie actor, Mel Gibson. These are just some of the curious ironies of the impending independence referendum-taking place in Scotland on Thursday."
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-09-16-scotland-the-land-of-the-brave-and-the-free.-or-foolish/#.VBgZcZSSzSs
Dread Knot
09-16-14, 08:21 AM
Two days to go...until I find out if I need to buy a new atlas.
But then considering that its copyright date is 1977 and it still has both the Soviet Union and the Central African Empire among other outdated nations on its pages, maybe I need an upgrade anyway. :-?
Jimbuna
09-16-14, 09:43 AM
After seeing Cameron make a fool of himself yesterday I suspect a growing number of the English are now hoping for a YES vote.
Catfish
09-16-14, 10:28 AM
A 51 to 49 percent "decision" is not the right way to decide about this .. :hmmm:
Mr Quatro
09-16-14, 11:03 AM
Win or lose this will be the last time this matter should come up.
The class system in the UK extends to poor people in Scotland, right?
How can the poor people of Scotland be assured of continuing to get a welfare check or at the least have to qualify all over again?
The rich will have to pay more taxes in Scotland to support the poor ... :yep:
Herr-Berbunch
09-16-14, 01:46 PM
A 51 to 49 percent "decision" is not the right way to decide about this .. :hmmm:
Here's a post of mine on a closed FB group from 5 hours ago :arrgh!:
Yes/no being roughly 50/50 (depending on which poll on which day) is absolutely no basis for a such a huge decision - in most other countries in the world such a close margin would be an invite to civil war.
I'm beginning to think the Yes voters should have their own plot of land somewhere innoculous... Eastern end of the Med shall we say... What trouble could come from that?
Betonov
09-16-14, 01:51 PM
Here's Slovenia's referendum in 1990
On 26 December the results of the referendum were officially proclaimed by France Bučar in the Assembly. 88.5% of all electors (94.8% of those participating) had voted in favour of independence, therefore exceeding the threshold. 4.0% had voted against independence, while 0.9% had cast invalid ballots, and 0.1% had returned their ballots unused. 6.5% of electors did not participate in the elections.
The same percentage today thinks the entire undertaking was a mistake :doh:
THIS is a nation wanting independence, 50/50 is politics playing on the sentiments if citizens.
Yep, 49-51 (or a Quebec 1995 result) is too close. Something like this should have been set at a minimum threshold of two thirds.:hmmm:
Unfortunately, there are still strong memories of the result of the 1979 referendum, a Yes but below a set threshold:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979
"The result was a narrow majority in favour of devolution. However, Parliament had set a condition that 40% of the registered electorate should vote "Yes" in order to make it valid. The amendment to the Bill which set this condition was moved by George Cunningham, the Scottish-born Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury. Thus, despite a turnout of over 60%, devolution was not enacted since less than 40% of electorate voted yes. The Scotland Act 1978 was repealed in March 1979 by a vote of 301-206 in the UK House of Commons."
Mike.:hmmm:
One thing I think we will have like 80-90% turnout on Thursday.
That'll be the biggest turnout for any voting process in the United Kingdom for the past thirty years... :doh:
Herr-Berbunch
09-17-14, 01:45 AM
A Yes vote isn't a vote for independence, it's to start negotiations. That'll be the toughest part for all concerned and a worrying time for those who decided at the last minute.
Skybird
09-17-14, 05:36 AM
Tomorrow there's going to be party anyway, right? :D The only question is will the beer glass be half full or half empty?
:O:
Dread Knot
09-17-14, 07:52 AM
Could be an interesting and historical 24 hours. This is no ordinary election where you can vote the government out after four years if they screw up. This is a no-return scenario, I assume. Any miscalculations will have permanent consequences.
There's going to be bickering no matter the result, but in the event of a YES vote I suspect the bickering will be a great deal more acrimonious and drawn out. I do expect that whatever happens, whatever the margin, there will be the usual allegations of vote-rigging and ballot box-stuffing. It sounds like there is already an English backlash brewing against the promises that have been made to Scotland by the party leaders in the event of a NO vote.
Jimbuna
09-17-14, 07:58 AM
The vote is so close the undecided portion will tilt the balance one way or the other....that's democracy for you.
Rockstar
09-17-14, 08:05 AM
The vote is so close the undecided portion will tilt the balance one way or the other....that's democracy for you.
Democracy? Are you voting?
Rockstar
09-17-14, 08:17 AM
Never mind that was a silly question
Skybird
09-17-14, 08:32 AM
The vote is so close the undecided portion will tilt the balance one way or the other....that's democracy for you.
Sorry for being straight, but that is Quatsch. Majority rule is not the essence of democracy. In fact, it is self-destruction of free society.
http://www.mega.nu/ampp/kaz/democracy.html
What is democracy really about? The answers will surpise many people, but by ancient Athen'S example are solid and true:
- before anything else: equality of all before the law, everybody being able to become juror;
- replacing hereditary aristocracy with aristocracy based on wealth(!!) (private property decided which men were seen as "free men" and thus as citizens allowed to participate in the various bodies of administration;
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/greekfeatures/a/democracyriseof.htm
A very good German introduction is from the "Institut für Wertewirtschaft" and Rahim Taghizadegan:
http://wertewirtschaft.org/analysen/Demokratie.pdf
Modern understanding of what democracy is and means, is very very porked, I'm sorry to say. To declare majority voting the key element of democracy - an argument so very often given and used today - means to mistake democracy with something else: with so-called ochlocracy.
Finally, again my reminder that the Us were founded and intended to be not a democratic republic, to use modern terminology, but an aristocratic republic.
What happens in Scotland tomorrow, is an event where crowds of people will express their decision on one issue with consequences, and the majority will "plow under" :) the minority, period. Do not call that "democracy", it has little to do with that. It already starts with that a discrimination regarding Scottish people who are eligible to vote is almost non existent. That already is, if you take serious the ancient history of the term and what it meant, not democratic! :D
:know:
Jimbuna
09-17-14, 08:49 AM
Never mind that was a silly question
A silly question answering a silly remark...I was attempting a certain element of sarcasm :03:
Perhaps I should have inserted a smiley Sky :)
Buddahaid
09-17-14, 11:47 AM
I don't think this found it's way here yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0&feature=youtu.be
I don't think this found it's way here yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0&feature=youtu.be
:har: John Oliver is brilliant. :up:
Rockstar
09-17-14, 01:36 PM
Wookie in a top hat! :har:
Rockstar
09-17-14, 03:24 PM
One thing is for certain. Scots will make out like pretty well after the ice caps melt.
http://www.keepatroshin.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/drownedUKmap.jpg
Dread Knot
09-17-14, 04:09 PM
One thing is for certain. Scots will make out like pretty well after the ice caps melt.
Whew. I thought for a moment that map was a projection of Tory, Labour and Liberal Democrat Party Boss bedwetting in the event of a Yes vote.
Well...the big day today.
No matter what Scotland decides I will always hold a special place in my heart for the land of my fathers and forefathers. I just hope that the decision is the right one for the people of Scotland, that there is no cutting off of the nose to spite the face.
I can't blame the Scots for their anger against us, they are second only to Ireland in the amount of suffering they have had inflicted against them as a result of English decisions, but I can't help but feel that apart both England and Scotland will be weaker.
So, while I'll support whatever decision they make, I hope in the deepest of my heart that they will stay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvNL81LxhOA
Long may your chimney smoke. :salute:
I think Willie says it all about Scottish Independence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk&app=desktop
Betonov
09-18-14, 02:07 AM
:haha: In no oil rich country the men wear pants :haha:
hmmmmmm
Okey, Norway and Texas are removed from my bucket list :dead:
BossMark
09-18-14, 03:16 AM
It looks like the Scottish vote will be tight.
Typical.
Catfish
09-18-14, 03:17 AM
"Vote disorder reports 'exaggerated' "
50 no, 45 yes, 6 don't know = 101 percent
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides
But hey what's a percent here and there :rotfl2:
the GCHQ is sure working overtime to squelch out the pre-printed ballots :O:
Herr-Berbunch
09-18-14, 09:41 AM
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2069846/thumbs/o-SCOTTISH-REFERENDUM-FLOWCHART-570.jpg?6
Dread Knot
09-18-14, 09:43 AM
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2069846/thumbs/o-SCOTTISH-REFERENDUM-FLOWCHART-570.jpg?6
Wow, Simply wow. :rotfl2:
The Skye Boat Song makes me mist up. I guess that makes me a YES vote and a closet Stuart. :D
God Save the Queen doesn't make me cry, it makes me fall asleep... :haha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ
nikimcbee
09-18-14, 10:30 AM
Well Jim, if you become a refugee, you can always live with me.:up:
Jimbuna
09-18-14, 11:22 AM
Well Jim, if you become a refugee, you can always live with me.:up:
We'll know soon enough, the result is due tomorrow at breakfast time....I have the supply of bricks and cement on order for the remedial work to Hadrians Wall.
Now for a brief historical interlude......
It appears devolution for Scotland isn't exactly new:
"We have a right, with all our separate national characteristics, to manage our own affairs in our own way."
This might sound like a line from Yes Scotland's latest campaign leaflet, but it was actually said over a century ago.
In 1913, William Cowan presented a successful Scottish home rule bill (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1913/may/30/government-of-scotland-bill) to Westminster, but the outbreak of World War One prevented the creation of a strong Scottish parliament which could have completely changed Scotland's modern history.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29048884
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1913/may/30/government-of-scotland-bill
WW1 also stopped Irish Home Rule as well, so it would make an interesting "What-If" scenario to see how the UK turned out.:hmmm:
Going back to the real world, why didn't Gordon Brown get off his backside earlier:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-watch-gordon-brown-4275811
The full speech (13mins):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J39bBV7CBJk
I'm no Labour supporter, but "Son of the Manse" does give a good sermon when he's on form!:up:
Love him or loath him, he's still popular in Scotland. Perhaps he should give Holyrood a try, I remember seeing something on the BBC website indicating he's thinking about it. If Salmond's still there, I'd pay good money to see those two debating each other! They do say that it takes a big man to keep a big man in line!:yeah:
Mike.
Jimbuna
09-18-14, 12:21 PM
Just beware of voting yes, Scotland.
Once the yanks know you have oil and Muslims and you're not part of England anymore...
How much oil will independant Scotland end up with when the Shetlands declare their independance from Scotland?
http://online.wsj.com/articles/as-scotland-votes-on-independence-shetland-islands-ponder-own-fate-1410967801
SHETLAND ISLANDS, Scotland—People on this remote North Sea archipelago are following the Scottish independence campaign as intently as the rest of the U.K. Some even want another vote soon after—on their own independence from Scotland.
Earlier this year a group of islanders petitioned the Scottish parliament for more referendums after Thursday's vote on Scottish independence—a request that was denied.
But that hasn't silenced the debate over whether Shetland, along with the neighboring Orkney islands and the Outer Hebrides, should break away from Scotland, either to become independent on their own or to remain in the U.K.
Meanwhile the Norwegian navy has put to sea on 'manoeuvres'... :O: :haha:
Rockstar
09-18-14, 02:57 PM
http://www.dominoesrules.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/dominoes-rules8.jpg
Rockstar
09-18-14, 03:10 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/09/18/if-scotland-breaks-away-these-8-places-in-europe-could-be-next/
Frankly, we've just scratched the surface. Here are some of the other independence movements in Europe:
Wales, Cornwall (The United Kingdom), Galicia, Aragon (Spain), Silesia (Poland), Frisia (Netherlands, Germany), Sardinia (Italy), Brittany, Occitania, Alsace, Savoy (France), and Aaland (Finland)
USA USA USA! Secession is not even addressed in our constitution. We're like the Hotel California "We are programmed to receive. You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave" :D
Skybird
09-18-14, 03:12 PM
A split between the two seems to hurt England more than Scotland. england seems to suck out more of Scotland than the other way around. At least that is what I read from the info and numbers they have repeatedly given in German media by now. Oil maybe is not even the nmost important singfle faxctor, it makes up for not even half as much than for example the Scottish (not complete British) banking sector . The financial market of Scotland alone is around 25% of the Scottish GDP, and another 25% is state employment and services. The oil - is only around 12%, even tourism seems to add more to the GDP than the oil sector.
That size does not necessarily deicde fall or rise in the globalised eocnomy, shows a look at the countries with the highest per head economic perfomance, as poublished today in Die Welt:
http://img.welt.de/img/finanzen/crop132395127/500071440-ci3x2l-w580-aoriginal-h386-l0/DWO-FI-Tschechien-aw-Aufm-Kopie.jpg
http://img.welt.de/img/finanzen/crop132395128/032071440-ci3x2l-w580-aoriginal-h386-l0/DWO-FI-Tschechien-aw-Aufm-Kopie-2.jpg
Smaller Slovakia is able to catch up with bigger Czech Republic's per head income, after they split:
http://img.welt.de/img/finanzen/crop132395129/289071440-ci3x2l-w580-aoriginal-h386-l0/DWO-FI-Tschechien-aw-Aufm.jpg
Also, it would be a boot kick into the faces of the EUrocrats at Brussel, which I would like for its own purpose, of course.
What makes me laughing is the attempt to scare the Scots by saying that if they have to leave the pound, they could not get the Euro without first qualifying for its criterions. The history of the Euro is a history of broken treaties and unfulfilled criterions for bringing mebers in and avoidiung said criterions, and softening them up. what has been common praxis now should no longer be allowed for the unobedient Scots that maybe deny to know their palce and fall in lione with what the EU regime demands of them? Same for the comments by some analysts claiming that Scotland could not bring out its own currency, because it would need to cover that with real assets and material values. But the dollar printing in Washington, the Euro printing in Europe is done without covering the increase of money by any material wealth and value since years. Thats why we call it inflation and devaluing of money. What is allowed for the FED and what is allowed for the ECB - should not be allowed for Scotland? Whether it would be wise if Scotland does like that, is something different, I just point at the double standards.
If wise policies are run and the political caste is kept on a very short line by the Scottish people, I think Scotland has what it takes to go alone. And maybe showing England in some areas how to do things even better.
But the Eu will be Scotlands enemy in the coming years, so much is clear. Punishment for the disobedient child that refused to do as demanded - to teach other separatist movements an exemplary lesson. Katalonia, Baskenland, Corsica, Flanders, Venice, South Tirol, Bavaria... their numbers are increasing. This sanctionizing could sink Scotland maybe even if Scotland would have the power and opportunity to run alone, and to run better.
What the worst possible outcome is? A hairwidth's result, and it seems that is what they will get. Hope it does not rip Scotland into two pieces, no matter which camp will have won in the end.
Skybird
09-18-14, 03:18 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/09/18/if-scotland-breaks-away-these-8-places-in-europe-could-be-next/
USA USA USA! Secession is not even addressed in our constitution. We're like the Hotel California "We are programmed to receive. You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave" :D
Frisia? I'm German, but I never heard of that one. Bavaria, yes, but Frisia...
Mr Quatro
09-18-14, 03:27 PM
Just 30 minutes till the poles close only problem is both sides will drink too much tonight in celebration or in defeat :haha:
Dread Knot
09-18-14, 04:08 PM
Is it an omen 2 minutes left and my lights are flickering :hmmm:
Could it be the Scotpocalypse?
Went to vote at the local high school on my way to the gym at about 6. The place was mobbed - more like what I would expect for a jumble sale than a vote of any kind. when I came back a while later there were a couple of dozen people standing around outside with their kids, chatting and laughing.
Regardless of what way the vote goes, the turn out is looking like it is going to be extraordinary. All day long there has been the most amazing atmosphere. At this point I'm not interested in the mechanics of it all, it has simply been a real privilege to be a part of it, even in my own small way. I don't imagine I will ever see such optimism or interest ever again - certainly not for the UK wide elections next year, although I think you might see Labour utterly slaughtered up here - nobody is going to trust them.
Me, I'm busy all weekend with work and writing so I doubt I'll have much time for getting jaked either way. Got a bottle of prosecco for this evening, though. Going to sink it watching Die Hard. :D
I'm glad that there has been such a turnout, shows that there is still some interest in the process, even if no-one really cares for voting between the three jokers that make up the General Election.
Ordinarily I'd stay up late to listen and watch the reports coming in, but I've got to get up early tomorrow morning so I'll have to do what everyone else will be doing and wake up and see if I'm going to be living in a radically different nation or not. :hmmm:
Rockstar
09-18-14, 05:14 PM
Ok, nothing to see here everyone go home now. The Queen has put down the rebellion, all rebels will be rounded up and burned at the stake.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/live/2014/sep/18/scottish-referendum-results-live-coverage-of-the-independence-vote
Scottish independence referendum result - YouGov predicts 54% no, 46% yes - live.
What is the feeling of the vote in Inverclyde? or are you north of t'clyde?
Here in the Borders, it looks likes a strong no, but that is not really a surprise.
West End of Glasgow. Judging by what I've seen with my own eyes over the last couple of weeks It's a definite Yes here. Even south of the river, where Unionist sentiment is, errr, strong :D....there seems to be a change. A small one maybe, but a change. There's a wee guy at my work who is an ultraloyalist and total bluenose - he voted Yes, which amazed us all.
In my work, I'd say it's about 75% for Yes. Amongst my direct colleagues it's even higher - probably 80%. The only ones I know for sure are voting No are a guy who is very much Tory, and a woman who is involved quite heavily in the Orange Lodge, and another guy who served in the Falklands and is also a Bluenose (A Glasgow theme here.) Mind you, it should be noted I'm a bluenose, from a long line of Bluenoses...and I voted Yes. Regardless of the outcome, I'll still go to work tomorrow and get irritated with the Tory guy for being a tool, and get on with the Orange order woman because I like her.
I have also spoken with quite a few of those rumoured but rarely seen undecideds over the last few days who have at last decided to vote Yes.
For my money? I think it'll be a No. The problem is, Westminster is going to have to realise that, whether they like it or not the genie is out of the bottle. Something has changed, and it's not ever going to go back to the way it was.
You guys all seen this? :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bGuCGdLxW0
Skybird
09-18-14, 05:58 PM
YouGov says a non-representive poll after voting shows a 54% win for the "No" side, having counted feedback by some 1800 subjects after they voted. The boss of YouGov gets quoted in German media with having said that at the risk of maybe looking like an idiot in a couple of hours he is "99% sure" that the Scots have voted for staying in the UK.
However, the poll is not to be taken for a statistically relevant prognosis, it lacks the data quality to claim a statistically valid and verified trend.
Meanwhile the Norwegian navy has put to sea on 'manoeuvres'... :O: :haha:
"Putin, I read your book!"
Dread Knot
09-18-14, 06:05 PM
YouGov says a non-representive poll after voting shows a 54% win for the "No" side, having counted feedback by some 1800 subjects after they voted. The boss of YouGov gets quoted in German media with having said that at the risk of maybe looking like an idiot in a couple of hours he is "99% sure" that the Scots have voted for staying in the UK.
However, the poll is not to be taken for a statistically relevant prognosis, it lacks the data quality to claim a statistically valid and verified trend.
Hmm. So far as the major international markets are concerned, I suspect that Tokyo will take this poll as a strong cue when it opens.
antikristuseke
09-18-14, 06:44 PM
Something seems to be a bit off here :rotfl2:
http://i.imgur.com/xKYwetu.jpg
The head of MORI polls said earlier that any turnout of over 80% will make most of the polls so far invalid as they hadn't taken such a high turn out into account. Seems odd to me but I'm so statistician. Clackmannanshire have had an 89% turn out, on Orkney it was over 80......
Very proud that people still give a damn.
Still, about Glasgow. A couple of years ago, remember, the SNP were supposed to take the council in a landslide yet Labour won it yet again - hurray, more funding for gangsters, sorry, 'youth clubs' in the east end. Many of us felt there was something deeply suspicious about that result. Paranoia aside, polls are meaningless until the results are in.
I like Cathcart. My friend lives there. Nice and quiet. I live just beyond the uni campus. It's freshers week just now and almost unbearable. :)
As for Faranges comments about riots, well, he wishes. Every thing I've seen, from both sides, has been gracious, pleasant and freindly. No hint of trouble. Except, and this is important, at the Yes vote rally in George Square a couple of days ago where the BNP tried to cause trouble before the polis dealt with them. Generally, the only people ive seen acting the tit have been on the far right. Even the Orange march in Edinburgh last weekend was notable by how little publicity it generated and I know for a fact there had been journalist dispatched from certain papers in the hopes the Yes camp might start something.
Die Hard wasn't on. Watched Serenity instead. Space cowboys and fizzy wine, this is how democracy should be honoured...:D
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