Recommended change in the modding etiquette policy

[machiavelli]

Something about the modding etiquette policy doesn't seem right to me.

Modders, people who spend their unpaid time and effort to compile mods FOR the community (they consciously realize this when releasing a mod publicly) bless their sole, are making a contribution to an ideal that this modding community represents, that Silent Hunter can be improved upon at will, and people willing to take the time and effort to do so, who are willing to share their work, would and should be under the conscious that the ultimate goal here is to better the game by modification.

If the ultimate goal here is to better the game through modification, and not to favor any party without due justice or follow unnecessary rules in order to fulfill one's pride just because they've contributed their work, then why is this etiquette thing necessary? The only justification for the necessity of these rules would be for those who contribute but have more selfish motives than those who contribute for the improvement of the game for the sake of the community. The whole ideology behind the rules for etiquette (and I say rules here because they are represented as such, stickied to the top of the Sh3 modding forum as if they are law) suggest that the modders only commit their work to the community and for sharing their efforts because they look for praise and tireless thanks. Although praise and thanks is well deserved, it alone should not be a hamper to the modding progression of this game. If one's motives were to contribute to the community for the sake of the community, then a whole slew of rules and guidelines for others to follow (which trumps even the requirements for becoming a lawyer in the United States) would not be necessary; at least in this capacity.

This, compiled with the time and effort required to fulfill this "law", does retard the progress of the modification of Silent Hunter.

In essence, perhaps we should look to making less requirements for etiquette. I'd suggest a simple "effort" tried by the person modifying another's work at simply mentioning their names in the releasing, and thanking those contributors who he cannot attain names en masse. I do not see the point in asking permission to modify another's work unless they've specifically wanted that condition upon releasing their mod.

However, as to the last point, the argument is not great. Modders should be required to understand that when they release a mod to the community, they have consented to allow others to modify their work for the better of the community, only requiring that their name is mentioned in that subsequent mod for some credit.

If the motive here is to prevent others from stealing others work without giving them any credit; I'd like to ask for the statistics of such "modification thieves" here within these forums. I'd think 99% are good souls, and would not even think of doing such a thing.

"Asking for permission" is draconian at best, when considering its hampering to the progression of the modding of Silent Hunter and the betterment of the community here and for Silent Hunter players everywhere. I would like to see only a requirement to "attempt" to post the names of those who made the mods one has used in their mod. Nothing more.

This thread was compiled after angrily seeing a modder over 2 years ago post a Fore Torpedo room for the Type 7, giving credit to those who he used mods within his, only to be received with criticism by many here that he did not ask permission to use those mods in his mods. In the end, the member removed his mod not allowing anyone to download it, and he ask for his forum account to be removed.

I have many mods in the works, including an "All flotilla mod", allowing players to play all combat flotillas and the monsun/Africa/Indian Ocean gruppes. I am also working on the mine mod that will not require to use another torpedo in order to deploy. My greatest work and most consuming is a way to add a dynamic campaign through batch processing, and perhaps adding permanent mines to the SCR layer once they are deployed.

However, I will NOT release these mods here, and if released elsewhere they will not be allowed to be posted here, if the current etiquette law remains. The current etiquette law retards the progress of bettering Silent Hunter, and I will follow suit (if it remains) by not releasing my hard work to this community. If pride and due permission is what takes precedence here, then why should I break the mold by posting work without other's permission?

[max-peck]

Wow :o

What the hell is going on here?

[machiavelli]

Wow :o

What the hell is going on here?

It's nothing. Just a request to change the etiquette policy.

[Victor Schutze]

I agree with machiavelli, all this "etiquette" stuff is BS. :nope:
Furthermore, less "etiquette" BS would allow less mods soups. :yeah:

[TheDarkWraith]

You're preaching to the choir...a choir of nobody. One of the main reasons I gave up on SH3. Too much drama and crap :yep: Come over to SH5 if you want a friendlier experience.

[machiavelli]

I agree with machiavelli, all this "etiquette" stuff is BS. :nope:
Furthermore, less "etiquette" BS would allow less mods soups. :yeah:

I think you got it backwards? Less etiquette would allow more mods soups?

[HW3]

Do a search on Seawolves, then you might understand why this all came about.

:subsim:

[sublynx]

Could there be a time limit? For example three years after the mod's release, no permission required? During the first three years permission required if it states so in the mod's readme.

[machiavelli]

Could there be a time limit? For example three years after the mod's release, no permission required? During the first three years permission required if it states so in the mod's readme.


I like this approach "if it states so in the mod's readme" that permission be asked. After 3 years, permission need not be necessary.

Seawolves is an unfortunate incident it looks like, if they so happened to use other people's work for money.

How about it?

Say aye if you agree!

aye aye

[HW3]

I just wanted to make you aware, if you didn't know. Seawolves and the company X1 were a real hot topic on here for quite a while. Yes they took mods, claimed them as their own work, and did not give credit to the original mod maker. They then sold the "stolen" mods in a for profit expansion pack called Seawolves. That is why permission and credit are such a touchy topic around here, and some are reluctant to release work without getting permission. I agree with Aces approach on this, PM them, post a notice on the boards. If you still do not get a response, release the mod anyway with credit given to the modder in the readme, and offering to remove the mod if the original modder does see it and object. That should cover all the bases.

:subsim:

[machiavelli]

I just wanted to make you aware, if you didn't know. Seawolves and the company X1 were a real hot topic on here for quite a while. Yes they took mods, claimed them as their own work, and did not give credit to the original mod maker. They then sold the "stolen" mods in a for profit expansion pack called Seawolves. That is why permission and credit are such a touchy topic around here, and some are reluctant to release work without getting permission. I agree with Aces approach on this, PM them, post a notice on the boards. If you still do not get a response, release the mod anyway with credit given to the modder in the readme, and offering to remove the mod if the original modder does see it and object. That should cover all the bases.

:subsim:



Asking permission isn't going to stop thieves from stealing other peoples work and making a profit, it is only going to add extra work to the modders here looking to improve on other mods.

Thieves who are out for a profit are going to steal the work of modders as long as they release their work on public forums, and there really isn't anything you or I can do about that, let alone having this inefficient ruleset. It's sad, but it is true, as long as the mods are made public.

[Wreford-Brown]

Has anyone actually read the recommended modding etiquette?

A) PERMISSIONS:

#1: If you are going to make a mod based on the work created by another guy, ask permission first unless the readme of the original mod stated already that it could be freely reworked and modified.

#2: Asking for permission means using all reasonable methods of locating the author, and at least includes:
a) E-mail to the address stated in the mod readme, if any
b) Private Messaging in the forums frequented by that modder,
c) Public post calling the guy in the forums, if all else fails.

#3: If the author of an old mod has disappeared and the above methods of contacting him were unsuccessful, you can use his mod provided:
a) The readme of it did not explicitly forbid any further use,
b) You give proper credit to the original work and specify clearly
b1) What you modified, and
b2) Which means you used to try to contact the author, and when/where did you post or mail him,
c) The original author has been away from subsim's forums more than 6 months, which you can check in his public profile. Keeping a screen capture of that could be worth in case of doubts.

#4: If the mod's readme indicates that further use or rework of it is not allowed, accept it. Your only alternative is to contact the author and convince him to allow you modifying it.

#5: If you are contacted by the original author to correct the credits, that is no offence. Just do it.

#6: Overlays or tweek packs for existing mods or supermods do not require previous permission unless:
a) You are not just including stuff created entirely by you, but also using parts of the original one (E.g. you change only the crosshair of the periscope but keep the original artwork of the rest of the screen, created by someone else), or
b) You are including also the whole base-mod in yours.

#7: If you receive permission from the author of a mod that also includes other third party mods, you must contact the authors of ALL of them, as per the above #1-4. Sometimes a modder gives permission to use his work in a specific pack, but will not allow it for others. Respect that.

B) CREDITS & DOCUMENTATION:
Once permission is received according to the above guidelines, give proper credit as follows:

#1: Always give credit to any third party mod you legitimately included or reworked in your own one.

#2: It is nice to credit also people who post giving information and ideas in the forums but who later do not create mods from it. If your mod was based upon data or ideas suggested by others, crediting them is always good.

#3: Include in the documentation provided with your mod the original readme of the third party mod/s you are using.

c) YOUR OWN README:
Relating to the part created by you, it is of interest for everyone that you include what follows:

#1: Your name, and a valid contact address (E-Mail, a website or a Forum)

#2: Whether your own work might or not be further modified without your permission and/or knowledge.

In short, ask for permission by any means possible but if you're unable to make contact with the original modder you can release the mod anyway, providing you give full credit to them. The only time you must not release a mod is if that modder has specifically stated that you can't (or, after release, asks you to remove their part of your mod if you haven't asked for permission).

As far as I'm concerned, asking for permission to use someone else's hard work is simply good manners. When I've asked permission to use other modders work they have always given me permission, whether that's an aircraft or ship that has taken months to produce or a request to adjust the GWX basic.cfg files.

I support the recommended modding etiquette as it allows plenty of leeway to use other modders work whilst also retaining the ability for a particular modder to keep work to themselves which they've put time and effort into.

[Johnfb]

Yes and got great assistance from admins when I couldn't locate original modern.

[flakmonkey]

This thread was compiled after angrily seeing a modder over 2 years ago post a Fore Torpedo room for the Type 7, giving credit to those who he used mods within his, only to be received with criticism by many here that he did not ask permission to use those mods in his mods. In the end, the member removed his mod not allowing anyone to download it, and he ask for his forum account to be removed.

Slightly off topic but I have to admit im a little curious, didnt realise anyone ever released another fore torpedo room for sh3 (well atleast not 2 yrs ago anyway)
That would have been around the time i was working on the new interiors, its a pity, if id have known there was another interior modder out there, he and i could have worked together and added torpedo rooms to the original v1.0 interior mod.

*edit* actually scratch that, just done a quick search and now i remember the fella, mr attitude problem. He wanted myself and others to send him the files for unreleased mods we were still actively working on, so he could finish and release them, because we were being selfish and not working fast enough.
And just for the record, i never had any problem with that member using my interiors mod, nor did i express such at the time. As i have always maintained anybody is free to use any part of my mods as they see fit. What i did object to was his wholly unreasonable demands for unreleased files that reside on my hard drive while im still working on them.

[machiavelli]

Slightly off topic but I have to admit im a little curious, didnt realise anyone ever released another fore torpedo room for sh3 (well atleast not 2 yrs ago anyway)
That would have been around the time i was working on the new interiors, its a pity, if id have known there was another interior modder out there, he and i could have worked together and added torpedo rooms to the original v1.0 interior mod.

*edit* actually scratch that, just done a quick search and now i remember the fella, mr attitude problem. He wanted myself and others to send him the files for unreleased mods we were still actively working on, so he could finish and release them, because we were being selfish and not working fast enough.
And just for the record, i never had any problem with that member using my interiors mod, nor did i express such at the time. As i have always maintained anybody is free to use any part of my mods as they see fit. What i did object to was his wholly unreasonable demands for unreleased files that reside on my hard drive while im still working on them.

Irregardless, It seemed as if he was shunned from some of the big modders here, although he was quite vocal.

Anyhow, I'm more concerned about altering this etiquette policy.

[Jimbuna]

I just wanted to make you aware, if you didn't know. Seawolves and the company X1 were a real hot topic on here for quite a while. Yes they took mods, claimed them as their own work, and did not give credit to the original mod maker. They then sold the "stolen" mods in a for profit expansion pack called Seawolves. That is why permission and credit are such a touchy topic around here, and some are reluctant to release work without getting permission. I agree with Aces approach on this, PM them, post a notice on the boards. If you still do not get a response, release the mod anyway with credit given to the modder in the readme, and offering to remove the mod if the original modder does see it and object. That should cover all the bases.

:subsim:

Has anyone actually read the recommended modding etiquette?



In short, ask for permission by any means possible but if you're unable to make contact with the original modder you can release the mod anyway, providing you give full credit to them. The only time you must not release a mod is if that modder has specifically stated that you can't (or, after release, asks you to remove their part of your mod if you haven't asked for permission).

As far as I'm concerned, asking for permission to use someone else's hard work is simply good manners. When I've asked permission to use other modders work they have always given me permission, whether that's an aircraft or ship that has taken months to produce or a request to adjust the GWX basic.cfg files.

I support the recommended modding etiquette as it allows plenty of leeway to use other modders work whilst also retaining the ability for a particular modder to keep work to themselves which they've put time and effort into.

Whether some people consider the expected etiquette to be rubbish that is a matter of personal opinion.

What is important to me as a moderator on here (and nothing else) is that the site owner is happy for such etiquette to remain in place....his house, his rules.

I believe HW3 and Wreford-Brown have adequately explained the rationale behind said etiquette and certainly don't consider it unreasonable.

The drama that existed years ago are long behind us all and long may it continue.

Now in conforming with all of the above, if links are posted to mods that are for 'with profit' and of a questionable origin I'm confident Neal, Hitman and myself would have no hesitation in pulling them down.

[flakmonkey]

Irregardless, It seemed as if he was shunned from some of the big modders here, although he was quite vocal.

Anyhow, I'm more concerned about altering this etiquette policy.

I actually agree, the modding etiquette does limit and in some ways hamper the way people work with the game.
I dont believe any modder should be able to deny anybody the use of his/her work once it has been released. After all modding is meant for the community.
Of course i still believe proper credit should be given where appropriate even if just as a courtesy.

[Hitman]

We've been through this before: the existing recommended modding etiquette is just that, the recommended guideline we officially approve here and we like. We (moderators) are not going to enforce it as policemen, as that is not our business, but for sure we and the community will dislike attitudes that blatantly are against its spirit -the spirit of overall respect for someone else's work.

We openly admit that the etiquette is not perfect and that it will never please everybody, as well as that it might be sometimes a bit exaggerated; but after the discussion and open thread that leaded to it, that's about the best compromise possible, and there is no intention to make periodic amendments or revisions to it, unless our host Neal decides it.

Thxs all for the input, must close this thread now.