[WIP] Historical Guns Specs [Archive] - Page 2

gap

01-16-13, 12:21 PM

I'm pretty sure that it's the first level of the upgrades. So when you start your campaign, there is no modifiers. The first upgrade level gives that +6 points.

Okay, I see. :up:

From my first tests with reload time (in single mission), it appears that at the highest crew experience level, the setting stored in sim file is used, whereas at the lowest level, reload times were 5 times longer.

I have still to discover if crew abilities settings are applied in mission as well as in campaign :hmmm:

Oops! My old noob avatar made a comeback... happens once a year it seems! :haha:

Ah we meet your alter ego :ahoy:

:haha:

Mr. Rongel and Dr. Rognel :O:

Добрый вечер, Габриэль! Первый урок? :O:
Good evening, Gabriele! First lesson?

Yes... if only I could figure out how to prononce it :-? :D

Are you sure?
maybe - fire at all targets, close range - would be better?

Whatever Flak order you think is more effective will be okay, as long as you retain it throughout all of your testings :up:

volodya61

01-16-13, 01:26 PM

Yes... if only I could figure out how to prononce it :-? :D

Yep.. unfortunately the online translators don't give a transcription of the words.. :D

Whatever Flak order you think is more effective will be okay, as long as you retain it throughout all of your testings :up:

Okay..
Just these orders (fire at all targets & close range) were most effective in my previous tests.. :yep:

gap

01-16-13, 02:33 PM

Yep.. unfortunately the online translators don't give a transcription of the words.. :D

Some letters are te same, or very similar, to the equivalent greeks ones. Having studied old Greek at school, I can get a vague idea of what Russian written words could sound like... actually a very vague idea :O:

Okay..
Just these orders (fire at all targets & close range) were most effective in my previous tests.. :yep:

weird, for me it was just the opposite, but I have also reduced traverse and elevation speeds which, I suppose, are affecting the ability to adjust the aim at close range :03:

volodya61

01-16-13, 03:30 PM

Some letters are te same, or very similar, to the equivalent greeks ones. Having studied old Greek at school, I can get a vague idea of what Russian written words could sound like... actually a very vague idea :O:

Everything is very simple - http://safalra.com/science/linguistics/cyrillic-pronunciation/

weird, for me it was just the opposite, but I have also reduced traverse and elevation speeds which, I suppose, are affecting the ability to adjust the aim at close range :03:

Well.. I'll try different orders for cleanliness of experiment.. :) :03:

gap

01-16-13, 06:46 PM

Everything is very simple - http://safalra.com/science/linguistics/cyrillic-pronunciation/

доброе утро Володя

dobroɛ utro Volodja :hmmm:

Well.. I'll try different orders for cleanliness of experiment.. :) :03:

cleariness above all :up:

Can you please make me another favour?

You told me that you have already made some progress in your campaign, and that your crew might already be at its highest experience level. I need to know: :)

- are you sing any morale/abilities mod? If yes, which one?
- are you using any mod dealing with U-boat guns specs? If yes, which one?
- is there a way that you could know the actual experience level of your crew? If yes, what is it?
- what flak/deck guns is your U-boat equipped with and, by watch, which is the reload time of each of them?

P.S: indeed, I won't get upset if someone else who is reading this post will answer the above questions. The more information I gather, the better I can figure out what is going on with gun specs and crew experience in campaign :up:

volodya61

01-16-13, 08:22 PM

доброе утро Володя

dobroɛ utro Volodja :hmmm:

I think, so far as it's a phonetic transcription so something like this [dobroɛ utro volodja] :O:

- are you sing any morale/abilities mod? If yes, which one?
- are you using any mod dealing with U-boat guns specs? If yes, which one?
- is there a way that you could know the actual experience level of your crew? If yes, what is it?
- what flak/deck guns is your U-boat equipped with and, by watch, which is the reload time of each of them?

- Reworked Morale & Abilities
- AMMO SH5 by Raven2012 & Sober's bad weather deck gun v1 (my edition) but currently I'm working on my revision of gun's specs and specs in my revision will be based on our tests results :up:
- no way, I don't know the experience level of my crew
- two C/38-twin on top of the conning tower and 88mm deck gun
reload time:
C/30 - 5 seconds, C/38 - 10 seconds, 37mm - 1.5 seconds, Vierling - 20 seconds, 88mm gun - 10 seconds
and I have no idea how less reload time with the gunner abilities..

gap

01-16-13, 08:37 PM

- Reworked Morale & Abilities
- AMMO SH5 by Raven2012 & Sober's bad weather deck gun v1 (my edition) but currently I'm working on my revision of gun's specs and specs in my revision will be based on our tests results :up:

Okay :up:
but are you currently using your revisions in campaign, or what?

- no way, I don't know the experience level of my crew

I wonder if it is possible at all to know it :hmmm:

- two C/38-twin on top of the conning tower and 88mm deck gun
reload time:
C/30 - 5 seconds, C/38 - 10 seconds, 37mm - 1.5 seconds, Vierling - 20 seconds, 88mm gun - 10 seconds
and I have no idea how less reload time with the gunner abilities..

Are these the values you are reading from the sim files? I need to know the measured reload times :yep:

In a nutshell, I need to compare your set reload times with your measurement of them in campaign :03:

volodya61

01-16-13, 08:58 PM

but are you currently using your revisions in campaign, or what?

Not yet.. I want to include my revision in the mod-pack..
Last time I played a month ago..

Are these the values you are reading from the sim files? I need to know the measured reload times :yep:

from the .sim files :oops: :oops:

In a nutshell, I need to compare your set reload times with your measurement of them in campaign :03:

Okay, I will measured them.. results will be reported in the evening..
:salute:

gap

01-17-13, 04:52 AM

Okay, I will measured them.. results will be reported in the evening..
:salute:

Okay, in the meanwhie I will measure them at campaign start :salute:

gap

01-17-13, 10:58 AM

I have made some more testing about the effect of passive abilities on guns' specs, using as reference gun reload times, which can be easily estimated in game, and increasing them a bit in order to minimize measurement errors.

Basically I played with crew veterancy levels (in single mission) and with 'Reduce Guns Reload Time' ability settings (both in single mission and in campaign) and, while keeping gun's specs (in sim files) fixed throughout my tests, I measured with a stopwatch how reload times changed. Here are the results:

In single mission:
apparently, actual reload times don't rely on 'Reduce Guns Reload Time' settings. They are nonetheless linked to their setting in gun's sim file, and to crew's veterancy level set in ME, according to the following fixed ratios:

rt0 = RT * 5.00
rt1 = RT * 2.50
rt2 = RT * 1.67
rt3 = RT * 1.25
rt4 = RT

where rt0 to rt4 are the measured times at different veterancy levels from 'poor' to 'elite', and RT is the standard reload time (sim file setting). During a test with crew competence level set to 2 (competent), enabling battlestations halved the reload times, but during other tests, the battlestations order seemed irrelevant (in both cases Rongel's RM&A was enabled). :hmmm:

in campaign:
after looking at the crew management interface, I have found a scale which apparently displays curret gunner ability levels. This is how it looks like at the beginning of the campaign:

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2662/gunnerabilities.jpg

so, when a new campaign is started, either crew abilities are set to a median level (among the levels defined in SpecialAbilities.upc) or, most probably, we start from a standard level, and crew abilities can be decreased as well as increased. :yep:

Talking about my tests, I carried out two of them: one with Reworked Morale and Abilities by Rongel enabled, and one without it. This mod got different 'Reduce Guns Reload Time' than stock:

RM&A settings
[SpecialAbility 34]
ID=Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time
NameDisplayable=Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Name
Description=Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description
Levels= 5
AbilityType=GunsReloadTime ;reduce gun reload time (in percents)
AbilityValue= -4, -8, -12, -16, -20

Stock settings
[SpecialAbility 34]
ID=Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time
NameDisplayable=Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Name
Description=Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description, Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time-Description
Levels= 5
AbilityType=GunsReloadTime ;reduce gun reload time (in percents)
AbilityValue= -10, -20, -30, -40, -50

In both cases I started a new campaign, and in I've obtained the same result:

rt observed = RT * 1.25

This finding is compatible with the assumption that at the beginning of the campaign our crew is assigned standard abilities (thus not affected by SpecialAbilities.upc settings). What I don't get, is this factor +25%. Shoudn't sim's RT setting be applied as it is? Is there any other factor affecting it? :hmmm:

volodya61

01-17-13, 11:28 AM

Okay, in the meanwhile I will measure them at campaign start :salute:

Well.. I've tested and measured..

- Reworked Morale & Abilities
- AMMO SH5 by Raven2012
- C/38-twin and 88mm deck gun
- reload time: C/38 - 10 seconds, 88mm gun - 10 seconds in the .sim files

All gunner's special abilities fully enabled.. reload time should be decreased by 20%.. but..

C/38 - 10 seconds, 88mm gun - 10 seconds in the game :o

PS: now start to test the trav/elev tolerance angles

Trevally.

01-17-13, 12:43 PM

How are you testing the crew Gap:06:

When out on patrol and you give them promotion point have you checked to see the effect of their stats?

Here is my crewman 16 - as you can see he is not a very good shot and is poor at reloading the gun:D
Perhaps he needs motivating

[CrewMember 16]
ID=Crew-Jr-NCO-Rank-1-Torpedo-TRA
NameDisplayable=Max Bauer
DescriptionDisplayable=Born and raised in Wilhelmshaven to a father who worked in the docks. An amateur boxer, he is like a force of nature. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but very physical, strong, and athletic. Before he joined the navy he dreamed of becoming a professional boxer, but he got a girl pregnant, had to marry her and needed to make money, so he joined the navy. He is rather quiet, and only comes to life when talking about boxing. He is a skilled gunner, though politically unmotivated, but doesn’t feel like he has a choice about the war.
CrewMemberNameIDLinks=NULL
DateOfBirth=0000-00-00 00:00:00
Head=10
Voice=0
Tatoo=0
Rank=Jr-NCO-Rank-1-TRA
CurrentExperience=0.000000
SpecialAbilities=Ability-Boost-Guns,-1,Ability-Reduce-Guns-Reload-Time,-1
SpecialAbilityTimers=100000000,100000000,100000000 ,100000000,100000000,100000000,100000000,100000000 ,100000000,100000000
SpecialAbilityDurations=1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
SpecialAbilityOldDurations=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
SpecialAbilityCooldowns=30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30 ,30
SpecialAbilityOldCooldowns=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Morale=5.000000
MoralePool=5.000000
PointsInvestedIn=0
Medals=
Patrols=0
Notes=
Hitpoints=5.000000
RenownCost=250.000000
Health=1.000000
CurrentStatus=OFF_DUTY
Efficiency=1.000000
PotentialEfficiency=1.000000
HumanEfficiency=1.000000
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
CurrentActivities=0
DamageDescription1=NULL,0,0.2,1,Minor Wound,NULL,0.2,0.3,42.2892
DamageDescription2=NULL,0,0.2,1,It's just a scratch,NULL,0.05,0.1,4.75713
DamageDescription3=NULL,0.2,0.5,1,Broken Arm,HumanDamageArmwound,0.6,0.5,109.588
DamageDescription4=NULL,0.4,0.8,0.1,Liver wound,HumanDamageArmwound,1,0.7,260.095
DamageDescription5=NULL,0.6,1,1,Sucking chest wound,HumanDamageLegWound,1,0.8,250.281
Selected=false

[CrewMember 16.Rank]
ID=Jr-NCO-Rank-1-TRA
Level=4
TreeType=Kriegsmarine
NameDisplayable=Matrosen Gefreiter
ShortNameDisplayable=Gefr
Image=4
XPRequirement=2500.000000
MoralePoolAdd=0.000000
MoraleRefill=false
LeadershipAdd=0.000000
LevelUp=Base
MaxSpecialAbilities=0
AvailableSpecialAbilities=
GetSpecialAbilityChance=0.000000
EfficiencyMod=1.000000
DescriptionWhenPlayerHasTheRank=NULL
DescriptionWhenPlayerDoesntHaveTheRank=NULL

gap

01-17-13, 01:42 PM

Well.. I've tested and measured..

- Reworked Morale & Abilities
- AMMO SH5 by Raven2012
- C/38-twin and 88mm deck gun
- reload time: C/38 - 10 seconds, 88mm gun - 10 seconds in the .sim files

All gunner's special abilities fully enabled.. reload time should be decreased by 20%.. but..

C/38 - 10 seconds, 88mm gun - 10 seconds in the game :o

I don't understand :hmmm:

Too many interactions... I am afraid these settings are too complicated for us to understand them in a reasonable time frame without the help of someone who already messed with them... :-?

Rongel, have you finished sabotaging those torpedoes yet? :D

PS: now start to test the trav/elev tolerance angles

Hopefully these will be a lot easier to understand :up:

How are you testing the crew Gap:06:

When out on patrol and you give them promotion point have you checked to see the effect of their stats?

I am a total blind at this matter... what I've done is reported in my previous post. In a nutshell, I measured gun reload times at the beginning of the career, and compared them with the settings stored in gun's sim file.

Unfortunately, I cannot go beyond this point, because I have not old campaign savegames, and currently my gpu is overheating a lot if I play for more than 10 minutes... :nope:

Anyway, what I am trying to do is making sure that sim/zon file settings are not increased or decreased by morale factors beyond reasonable and realistic limits :yep:

volodya61

01-17-13, 10:21 PM

Hopefully these will be a lot easier to understand :up:

It was a damn long evening/night :nope:

1. stock C/30, obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.8, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 0, shots to shoot down 80,73,233

test2: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 5, shots to shoot down 120,40,160

test3: trav/elev tolerance 11, wind 0, shots to shoot down 185,112,63

test4: trav/elev tolerance 11, wind 5, shots to shoot down 120,120,147

test5: trav/elev tolerance 7, wind 0, shots to shoot down 193,173,192

test6: trav/elev tolerance 7, wind 5, shots to shoot down 215,22,33

test7: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 0, shots to shoot down 110,213,111

test8: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 5, shots to shoot down 111,120,66

2. stock C/30, trav/elev tolerance 15, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.70, wind 0, shots to shoot down 230,no hits,no hits

test2: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.75, wind 0, shots to shoot down 376,215,138

test3: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.80, wind 0, shots to shoot down 92,67,134

test4: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.85, wind 0, shots to shoot down 272,146,180

test5: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.90, wind 0, shots to shoot down no hits,464,no hits

Each test was run three times.. and a thousand tests are not included in this list.. :D

also there are two interesting settings in the .sim: obj_Turret/Elevation/speed and obj_Turret/Traverse/speed.. I'll look at them more closely tomorrow/today..:D :03:

:salute:

gap

01-18-13, 06:33 AM

It was a damn long evening/night :nope:

Each test was run three times.. and a thousand tests are not included in this list.. :D

:D

Volodya, you are my hero!
just give me the time to put your results in a chart :up:

also there are two interesting settings in the .sim: obj_Turret/Elevation/speed and obj_Turret/Traverse/speed.. I'll look at them more closely tomorrow/today..:D :03:

:salute:

Those parameters are the speed at wich the gun is aimed, and they also affect gun's stabilization :yep:

Rongel

01-18-13, 07:06 AM

I don't understand :hmmm:

Too many interactions... I am afraid these settings are too complicated for us to understand them in a reasonable time frame without the help of someone who already messed with them... :-?

Rongel, have you finished sabotaging those torpedoes yet? :D

Yep, my morale/efficiency mod is based on stock settings, so I haven't explored that much actual effects of the commands. I'm basically hoping that they work, in some cases I have found that entry doesn't make any difference and I have removed it. But I don't wan't to go deeper there now!

The torpedoes have to wait until weekend! But maybe when I get it together, I'll post a test mod. It's a real pain to test random values!

gap

01-18-13, 08:29 AM

Yep, my morale/efficiency mod is based on stock settings, so I haven't explored that much actual effects of the commands. I'm basically hoping that they work, in some cases I have found that entry doesn't make any difference and I have removed it. But I don't wan't to go deeper there now!

Ok, no problem :up:

The torpedoes have to wait until weekend! But maybe when I get it together, I'll post a test mod. It's a real pain to test random values!

Yes it is. :nope:
Take your time on it

gap

01-18-13, 09:19 AM

1. stock C/30, obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.8, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 0, shots to shoot down 80,73,233

test2: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 5, shots to shoot down 120,40,160

test3: trav/elev tolerance 11, wind 0, shots to shoot down 185,112,63

test4: trav/elev tolerance 11, wind 5, shots to shoot down 120,120,147

test5: trav/elev tolerance 7, wind 0, shots to shoot down 193,173,192

test6: trav/elev tolerance 7, wind 5, shots to shoot down 215,22,33

test7: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 0, shots to shoot down 110,213,111

test8: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 5, shots to shoot down 111,120,66

I calculated the average numbers of shots, and put them on graph:

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2889/graph1j.jpg

from your tests we should deduce that there isn't a linear relationship between set tolerance angles and gun's accuracy neither at 0 m/s wind speed, nor at 5 m/s.

More surprisingly, the accuracy seems sensibly higher at 5 m/s than it is at 0 m/s (which is exactly the opposite of what one would expect) though this difference tends to attenuate at higher tolerance settigs.

What is interesting is that the two graphs seem specular, but this fact could be a mere cohincidence.

Summing up, being standard deviation values deduced from your data very high, we need for much more tests of each type before we can come to a conclusion. Repeating our tests with higher wind speeds (10 or 15 m/s) and tolerance angles (up to 30 deg) might help as well.

I will join you in doing it. Since we are at it, did you use any environmental mod affecting waves heights or sub's pitch and roll during your tests? I want to make sure to test under the same conditions than you :up:

2. stock C/30, trav/elev tolerance 15, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.70, wind 0, shots to shoot down 230,no hits,no hits

test2: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.75, wind 0, shots to shoot down 376,215,138

test3: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.80, wind 0, shots to shoot down 92,67,134

test4: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.85, wind 0, shots to shoot down 272,146,180

test5: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.90, wind 0, shots to shoot down no hits,464,no hits

It is unbelievable how much sensitive is gun's accuracy to these parameters: +/- one tenth of second and their effectiveness gets totally compromised :yep:

volodya61

01-18-13, 11:48 AM

damn.. I have a bad connection to the net again.. :nope:

Repeating our tests with higher wind speeds (10 or 15 m/s)

unfortunately it's impossible.. at least for the AI-gunners.. the dive trigger turn on and AI-gunner leave his station at these wind speed values..

and tolerance angles (up to 30 deg)

I'll test it later tonight..

did you use any environmental mod affecting waves heights or sub's pitch and roll during your tests?

stock SH5 + New UIs + IRAI + Cameras ratio + your single mission #2 + test mod (.sim).. That's all folks © :D

gap

01-18-13, 04:23 PM

unfortunately it's impossible.. at least for the AI-gunners.. the dive trigger turn on and AI-gunner leave his station at these wind speed values..

This is also true for conning tower mounted guns? :hmmm:
What is the maximum wind speed at which deck crew won't leave their stations?

I'll test it later tonight..

Take your time, Volodya ;)

stock SH5 + New UIs + IRAI + Cameras ratio + your single mission #2 + test mod (.sim).. That's all folks © :D

Okay :up:

P.S: perhaphs I have found a way to force any kind of flak gun in single mission:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=180669

This was with SHIII. Let's hope that with SH5 it is the same :)

volodya61

01-18-13, 09:06 PM

This is also true for conning tower mounted guns? :hmmm:

:yep: :nope:

What is the maximum wind speed at which deck crew won't leave their stations?

5-6 m/s.. but already sometimes they must be sent back to their place..

I'll test it later tonight..
...
Take your time, Volodya ;)

a bit later..
------------------------

a few new tests..

1. stock C/30, trav/elev tolerance 15, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.80, wind 0, shots to down 170,7,23,248,119,100
test1a: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.80, wind 5, shots to down 170,178,190,105,217,70

test2: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.81, wind 0, shots to down 48,80,78,120,89,129
test2a: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.81, wind 5, shots to down 96,37,305,68,120,90

test3: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.82, wind 0, shots to down 46,140,165,44,169,46
test3a: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.82, wind 5, shots to down 280,96,125,220,260,68

were tested also: 5.75-5.79, 5.83-5.85.. results don't deserve attention..

Each test was run six times..

I think this value (5.81) as the most stable might be used as a base value for the new tests and future stand alone mod..

to be continued.. :D

gap

01-18-13, 09:38 PM

a few new tests..

1. stock C/30, trav/elev tolerance 15, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.80, wind 0, shots to down 170,7,23,248,119,100
test1a: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.80, wind 5, shots to down 170,178,190,105,217,70

test2: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.81, wind 0, shots to down 48,80,78,120,89,129
test2a: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.81, wind 5, shots to down 96,37,305,68,120,90

test3: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.82, wind 0, shots to down 46,140,165,44,169,46
test3a: obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.82, wind 5, shots to down 280,96,125,220,260,68

were tested also: 5.75-5.79, 5.83-5.85.. results don't deserve attention..

Each test was run six times..

I think this value (5.81) as the most stable might be used as a base value for the new tests and future stand alone mod..

It probably is: :up:

avg. std.dev.
test1* 111 91
test1a 155 56

test2 91 30
test2a 119 95

test3 102 63
test3a 175 90

* 107 / 74 putting together the results of your previous tests and the new ones

to be continued.. :D

I think you deserve some rest now! ;) :)

volodya61

01-19-13, 10:59 AM

I think you deserve some rest now! ;) :)
rest? :hmmm:

Rest in peace to all the pilots of the hundreds downed Hurricanes :haha:

new portion

stock C/30, obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.81, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead standart, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1: trav/elev tolerance 10, wind 0, shots to down 200,196,9,170,32,220
test1a: trav/elev tolerance 10, wind 5, shots to down 55,100,91,155,117,130

test2: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 0, shots to down 209,123,69,91,100,77
test2a: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 5, shots to down 140,93,6,8,157,129

test3: trav/elev tolerance 20, wind 0, shots to down 140,196,243,9,91,188
test3a: trav/elev tolerance 20, wind 5, shots to down 157,91,68,178,140,300

test4: trav/elev tolerance 25, wind 0, shots to down 167,120,49,96,76,136
test4a: trav/elev tolerance 25, wind 5, shots to down 135,42,111,43,140,172

I don't see any regularities.. so I suggest leave these values/angles as they are for the future mod.. I mean trav/elev tolerance 15..

I think it's time to test the obj_Turret/Elevation/speed and obj_Turret/Traverse/speed and then move on to testing the deck gun.. and I'll need a new single mission for this..

gap

01-19-13, 11:52 AM

rest? :hmmm:

Rest in peace to all the pilots of the hundreds downed Hurricanes :haha:

:D

If during your tests you used like me Fx Updates, you would have given those poor aviators at least a tiny chance to survive :03:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=375&pictureid=3959

new portion

....

I don't see any regularities.. so I suggest leave these values/angles as they are for the future mod.. I mean trav/elev tolerance 15..

at low wind speeds the high tolerance factors you have set won't make any difference. Try doing some more tests with tolerance set to 1 (like AI guns) and wind speed as high as possible.

I think it's time to test the obj_Turret/Elevation/speed and obj_Turret/Traverse/speed...

A suggestion: set low train/elev speed and tolerance and high wind speed, and try manning the gun manually :03:

...and then move on to testing the deck gun.. and I'll need a new single mission for this..

Okay, no problem :up:

volodya61

01-19-13, 01:00 PM

If during your tests you used like me Fx Updates, you would have given those poor aviators at least a tiny chance to survive :03:

:D

Try doing some more tests with tolerance set to 1 (like AI guns) and wind speed as high as possible.

OK.. I'll test it..

A suggestion: set low train/elev speed and tolerance and high wind speed, and try manning the gun manually :03:

I saw these changes in the Sober's gun mod but I think we need to make more fine-tuning of these values.. :up:

gap

01-19-13, 01:15 PM

I saw these changes in the Sober's gun mod...

yes, sort of, but I think sober limited himself to tweak gun's aiming speeds, leaving tolerance factors unchanged

...but I think we need to make more fine-tuning of these values.. :up:

Now we are just experimenting what the various settings are doing in game. Once we get a clearer picture we will finetune them. But we should do it over a set of suggested mods which might affect how guns settings are applied. :yep:

By the way: which wave mod is your mod pack based on?

volodya61

01-19-13, 02:00 PM

yes, sort of, but I think sober limited himself to tweak gun's aiming speeds, leaving tolerance factors unchanged

:yep:

By the way: which wave mod is your mod pack based on?

My own.. I mixed it from several mods: your from DE, Sober's several versions, MadMax's etc.
If you want I can upload it for you..

gap

01-19-13, 02:14 PM

My own.. I mixed it from several mods: your from DE, Sober's several versions, MadMax's etc.
If you want I can upload it for you..

:up:

volodya61

01-19-13, 02:47 PM

My waves - http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8k3jc8bwj4csy0c

another thought:

the only way we can test the trav/elev tolerance angles at high wind speeds is ask TDW to make some fix the crew did not leave their stations.. what do you think?

EDIT: or maybe it already exists.. because with my settings the gunners at stations until the wind speed of 10-12 m/s

gap

01-19-13, 03:58 PM

My waves - http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8k3jc8bwj4csy0c

Thank you mate :up:

another thought:

the only way we can test the trav/elev tolerance angles at high wind speeds is ask TDW to make some fix the crew did not leave their stations.. what do you think?

EDIT: or maybe it already exists.. because with my settings the gunners at stations until the wind speed of 10-12 m/s

yes, settings contained in seaparameters.cfg not only affect visual waves, but they also have an impact on waves physics.

Drag, mass, etc. coefficents in U-boat's sim files also have an indirect effect on our crew leaving the deck or not.

Moreover, two other parameters in Sim.cfg might affect our sub as well as AI units:

[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.4 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.65 ;>=0

This is why I told you tha gun specs finetuning should be done having in mind a set of "background" mods :know:

volodya61

01-19-13, 05:24 PM

Okay..
I started a new series of tests:

stock C/30, obj_Turret/Elevation/gun_anim/end_index 5.81, reload time 5, ammo 500, ahead flank, battlestations activated, close range, fire at all targets

test1a: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 0, shots to down
test1b: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 5, shots to down
test1c: trav/elev tolerance 3, wind 10, shots to down

test2a: trav/elev tolerance 6, wind 0, shots to down
test2b: trav/elev tolerance 6, wind 5, shots to down
test2c: trav/elev tolerance 6, wind 10, shots to down

test3a: trav/elev tolerance 9, wind 0, shots to down
test3b: trav/elev tolerance 9, wind 5, shots to down
test3c: trav/elev tolerance 9, wind 10, shots to down

test4a: trav/elev tolerance 12, wind 0, shots to down
test4b: trav/elev tolerance 12, wind 5, shots to down
test4c: trav/elev tolerance 12, wind 10, shots to down

test5a: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 0, shots to down
test5b: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 5, shots to down
test5c: trav/elev tolerance 15, wind 10, shots to down

test6a: trav/elev tolerance 18, wind 0, shots to down
test6b: trav/elev tolerance 18, wind 5, shots to down
test6c: trav/elev tolerance 18, wind 10, shots to down

test7a: trav/elev tolerance 21, wind 0, shots to down
test7b: trav/elev tolerance 21, wind 5, shots to down
test7c: trav/elev tolerance 21, wind 10, shots to down

test8a: trav/elev tolerance 24, wind 0, shots to down
test8b: trav/elev tolerance 24, wind 5, shots to down
test8c: trav/elev tolerance 24, wind 10, shots to down

test9a: trav/elev tolerance 27, wind 0, shots to down
test9b: trav/elev tolerance 27, wind 5, shots to down
test9c: trav/elev tolerance 27, wind 10, shots to down

test10a: trav/elev tolerance 30, wind 0, shots to down
test10b: trav/elev tolerance 30, wind 5, shots to down
test10c: trav/elev tolerance 30, wind 10, shots to down

For these tests I'm using two additional mods of my mod-pack - http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?r1y14tb5l1aurr5

There appeared another question: in 3-5 minutes after the mission start the wind speed decreases rapidly.. initial setup was 10 m/s and a few minutes later 6 m/s.. :hmmm::06:

What do you think about it?

gap

01-19-13, 05:36 PM

Okay..
I started a new series of tests:

Good plan :up:

I only hope you won't get burb-out after all of these tests :D

For these tests I'm using two additional mods of my mod-pack - http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?r1y14tb5l1aurr5

There appeared another question: in 3-5 minutes after the mission start the wind speed decreases rapidly.. initial setup was 10 m/s and a few minutes later 6 m/s.. :hmmm::06:

What do you think about it?

That is weird. :hmmm:

Have you modified the wind change interval in mission settings by any chance? Is the change of wind appreciable on sight? Sometimes weather reports by the NO are mendacious :yep:

volodya61

01-19-13, 06:06 PM

I only hope you won't get burb-out after all of these tests :D

me too.. :D

Have you modified the wind change interval in mission settings by any chance? Is the change of wind appreciable on sight? Sometimes weather reports by the NO are mendacious :yep:

yes, I tried to increase the interval to 96 hours.. no luck..
yes, it's visually noticeable.. sea choppiness visually reduced..

EDIT: maybe worth to make two more missions based on mission #2 with initial wind speed of 5 and 10 m/s ??

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 06:35 PM

I was just reading through your thread on this and something sticks out to me. It appears the animation of the gun is impeding it's accuracy. I'm going to test something real quick that I believe will fix the accuracy problem :D

gap

01-19-13, 06:36 PM

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 06:40 PM

Just as I thought :rock:

The animations are totally screwing with the accuracy of the AA guns. In order to fix you need to delete the mask_name and set the start_index and end_index to 0 for the Elevation gun_anim box. AA gunner is very accurate then :D You have to do this to both 20mm AA guns (20mm_C30 and 20mm_C30_2) for the sub.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=446&pictureid=6255

:|\\

gap

01-19-13, 06:44 PM

me too.. :D

Be careful with your mental health, Volodya: I don't want to read on the newspapers that a guy in Southern Russia stepped in a supermarked wearing only a German C/30 machinegun under his raincoat :haha: :O:

yes, I tried to increase the interval to 96 hours.. no luck..
yes, it's visually noticeable.. sea choppiness visually reduced..

Does it happen from when you enabed your additional mods? :hmm2:

EDIT: maybe worth to make two more missions based on mission #2 with initial wind speed of 5 and 10 m/s ??

You can do it yourself in half a minute. If you don't know how to use ME, just open mission #2 in notepad, and look for this entry:

WindSpeed=0.000000

You can set it to any value between 0 and 15. Better doing it on a fresh copy of the mission, in case the one you are currently using got somehow corrupted ;)

gap

01-19-13, 06:48 PM

Just as I thought :rock:

The animations are totally screwing with the accuracy of the AA guns. In order to fix you need to delete the mask_name and set the start_index and end_index to 0 for the Elevation gun_anim box. AA gunner is very accurate then :D You have to do this to both 20mm AA guns (20mm_C30 and 20mm_C30_2) for the sub.

:|\\

That simple? :huh:

What those mask name settings are supposed to do? Won't deleting them have any side effect? :hmm2:

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 06:49 PM

That simple? :huh:

What that mask name settings are supposed to do? Won't deleting them have any side effect? :hmm2:

Yes, that simple! I haven't spotted any side effects :D Not sure what it does but I know it's part of the animations for moving the gun up/down. It doesn't work correctly so it needs to be disabled :up:

When you all reported that changing the end_index changed the accuracy I knew what the problem was then.

gap

01-19-13, 06:56 PM

When you all reported that changing the end_index changed the accuracy I knew what the problem was then.

Okay, your tweak will be worth a few more tests :up:

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 06:57 PM

Okay, your tweak will be worth a few more tests :up:

The AA gunner is almost too accurate now :-? My guy can shoot anything out of the sky. I'm also using Elite crew so gonna see what a crap crew does :)

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 07:04 PM

Made a single mission with just a Biplane in it and the fix for the AA guns. Tried all levels of crew rating for my sub and my AA gunner annihilates the airplane within 10 rounds shot. He never has to reload to take it out. It appears crew rating doesn't have an impact on the AA gunner. He is now WAY too accurate :-?

gap

01-19-13, 07:13 PM

The AA gunner is almost too accurate now :-? My guy can shoot anything out of the sky. I'm also using Elite crew so gonna see what a crap crew does :)

Made a single mission with just a Biplane in it and the fix for the AA guns. Tried all levels of crew rating for my sub and my AA gunner annihilates the airplane within 10 rounds shot. He never has to reload to take it out. It appears crew rating doesn't have an impact on the AA gunner. He is now WAY too accurate :-?

For what I have seen so far, crew experience setting aren't applied in single mission the same way they are in campaign, where it is affected by abilities settings and many more factors. This is at least true for guns reloading times.

This is to say that what works in campaign doesn't necessarily work the same way in mission and vice-versa. :hmmm:

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 07:15 PM

For what I have seen so far, crew experience setting aren't applied in single mission the same way they are in campaign, where it is affected by abilities settings and many more factors. This is at least true for guns reloading times.

This is to say that what works in campaign doesn't necessarily work the same way in mission and vice-versa. :hmmm:

Very true. Someone should test the fix in campaign :yep: I'm playing with another idea currently :D

volodya61

01-19-13, 07:21 PM

So.. all the tests that I did a week can be thrown out? :wah:

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 07:22 PM

So.. all the tests that I did a week can be thrown out? :wah:

Look at it this way: your data helped me 'see' the problem :yep: It was not in vain :up:

gap

01-19-13, 07:35 PM

Very true. Someone should test the fix in campaign :yep: I'm playing with another idea currently :D

:sunny:

I have also noticed that U-boat's guns elevation is limited to their maximum as previewed in goblin editor. I can set higher elevations and adjust proportionally the elevation end_index factor, even beyond the duration of the animation. Doing so makes the gun to aim correctly, but its maximum elevation remains unchanged :hmmm:

So.. all the tests that I did a week can be thrown out? :wah:

Look at it this way: your data helped me 'see' the problem :yep: It was not in vain :up:

Volodya, in these days you have made something no one had done before for this game. Maybe not everyone can appreciate the importance of your tests, but they are already giving their fruits :yep:

volodya61

01-19-13, 07:49 PM

Look at it this way: your data helped me 'see' the problem :yep: It was not in vain :up:

Volodya, in these days you have made something no one had done before for this game. Maybe not everyone can appreciate the importance of your tests, but they are already giving their fruits :yep:

Okay.. then continue our games.. :up: :03:

If now the sub guns are very accurate then we should reduce their accuracy depending of the weather condition.. I think so..
so.. continuing to test the trav/elev tolerance angles andelevation speed..
what do you think?

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 07:53 PM

Okay.. then continue our games.. :up: :03:

If now the sub guns are very accurate then we should reduce their accuracy depending of the weather condition.. I think so..
so.. continuing to test the trav/elev tolerance angles andelevation speed..
what do you think?

If you don't disable the animations for the elevations of the AA guns you're going to have nothing but problems :yep:

gap

01-19-13, 08:01 PM

If you don't disable the animations for the elevations of the AA guns you're going to have nothing but problems :yep:

Have you seen these posts:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1993604&postcount=237
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1993641&postcount=239

Our tests demonstrate that, as far as we set start/end index parameters wisely, falk gun's aiming is quite good, though not as deadly good as in your tests ;)

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 08:08 PM

Have you seen these posts:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1993604&postcount=237
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1993641&postcount=239

Our tests demonstrate that, as far as we set start/end index parameters wisely, falk gun's aiming is quite good, though not as deadly good as in your tests ;)

Try my fix and increase the trav_tolerance and elev_tolerance to 25 or 30

gap

01-19-13, 08:13 PM

Try my fix and increase the trav_tolerance and elev_tolerance to 25 or 30

Whar should I expect :06:

Dunno how much you have gone back reading this thread, but I suspect that trav and elev tolerance are acting as a sort of gyro-stabilization...

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 08:14 PM

Whar should I expect :06:

Dunno how much you have gone back reading this thread, but I suspect that trav and elev tolerance are acting as a sort of gyro-stabilization...

Since those values fall under the firing block it should mean that if the gun is anywhere within +- those specs of the target then it can fire

gap

01-19-13, 08:15 PM

Okay.. then continue our games.. :up: :03:

If now the sub guns are very accurate then we should reduce their accuracy depending of the weather condition.. I think so..
so.. continuing to test the trav/elev tolerance angles andelevation speed..
what do you think?

Okay, good plan. I would start with trav/elev tolerance at 10 or more km/h wind speed and start/elev speeds as in stock :up:

gap

01-19-13, 08:29 PM

Since those values fall under the firing block it should mean that if the gun is anywhere within +- those specs of the target then it can fire

Okay, a few days ago I was convinced, like you, that tolerance factors were... well, what their name says: the angle from the ideal aim at which the gun would have started firig.

The fact that setting ono of those parameters to 0 prevented guns from firing, even though they kept following the target, had convinced me that I was on the right way.

For testing my theory I set tolerance factors as high as 30, expecting the gun to fire everywhere but at the target, but to my disillusion the aiming wasn't apparently affected.

Nonetheless, I will repeat once more the test with the settings suggested by you, but I am almost sure to know the result ;)

volodya61

01-19-13, 08:30 PM

Okay, good plan. I would start with trav/elev tolerance at 10 or more km/h wind speed and start/elev speeds as in stock :up:

even with my additional mods they leaving their stations when wind speed is more than 11-12 m/s.. in stock they do it at 5-6 m/s..

TDW, how can we temporarily fix this issue?

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 08:31 PM

Okay, a few days ago I was convinced, like you, that tolerance factors were... well, what their name says: the angle from the ideal aim at which the gun would have started firig.

The fact that setting ono of those parameters to 0 prevented guns from firing, even though they kept following the target, had convinced me that I was on the right way.

For testing my theory I set tolerance factors as high as 30, expecting the gun to fire everywhere but at the target, but to my disillusion the aiming wasn't apparently affected.

Nonetheless, I will repeat once more the test with the settings suggested by you, but I am almost sure to know the result ;)

Yes a 0 would mean can't fire because there is no window. I should've said set the windows to a lesser value, you are correct :up: Like 5-10. This forces the gunner to be +- a smaller window before he can fire

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 08:44 PM

gap

01-19-13, 08:59 PM

Here's another tidbit of info: when the airplane's engine (zone) HPs are 0 the game destroys the airplane. So to make them hang around longer and not instantly blow-up we need to set their engine zone HPs higher.

Nice tip, I will take note of it :up:

by the way first set of tests accomplished:

trav/elev animations masks removed, start/end index parameters set to 0, trav/elev tolerance set to 30. Wind speed set to 5 kph.

Result for 3 tests respectively 17, 29 and 34 rounds to dawn the plane, with order to fire at closing targets at medium range. I will test now with lower tolerance angles...

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 09:06 PM

Nice tip, I will take note of it :up:

by the way first set of tests accomplished:

trav/elev animations masks removed, start/end index parameters set to 0, trav/elev tolerance set to 30. Wind speed set to 5 kph.

Result for 3 tests respectively 17, 29 and 34 rounds to dawn the plane, with order to fire at closing targets at medium range. I will test now with lower tolerance angles...

The tolerance angles should only define the window when the AA gunner can fire. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with accuracy. I wonder if these values in Sim.cfg would apply to our AA gunner:

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

:hmmm:

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 09:52 PM

gap

01-19-13, 09:59 PM

The tolerance angles should only define the window when the AA gunner can fire. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with accuracy.

In this case, it would have in indirect impact of gun's accuracy as, I would expect, higher values would determine a wider firing cone and therefore an higher probability to miss the target.

Anyway, these are the results of my last tests. Same settings than beore, except for tolerance factors, both set to 5 (crew veterancy set to compatent, by the way)

51, 40 and 112 to down the plane. Much worse than before. It is to be noted that during these last tests, the gun tended not to adjust its aim when the plane was at close range. :yep:

My next test will be with an higher crew veterancy.

I wonder if these values in Sim.cfg would apply to our AA gunner:

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

:hmmm:

According to the first test made by Volodya on this topic, seems that not, the aren't applied. But it could be worth retesting them anyway.

Since we are at it, there is another gun-specific parameter called restr_dist (described as 'Restrictions cone size' in meters) which could, I wonder, could also be affeting gun's aiming :hmmm:

gap

01-19-13, 10:15 PM

Here's ya a good single mission showing the accurate AA guns (modified 20mm_C30 and 20mm_C30_2 files) and how planes can take damage and not instantly blow-up: http://www.mediafire.com/?hdhf27ti3v2h1il

Extract to MODS folder and enable via JSGME. Select the single mission AA AI testing.

In this single mission you are surfaced @ 0 knots. In a short while a biplane will be heading towards you from the west. Man the flak guns and tell the flak gunner to fire at will. Go to external cam and watch the show :D

yes cool :arrgh!:

during my last tests with an hurricane the following damages occurred:

propeller damaged and black smoke trail
propeller and a wing damaged, and two black smoke trails
fuel tank damaged: long smoke trail and fire.

Talking about airplanes AI and damage, I have the following remarks:

airplanes don't give up their attack even when they are heavily damaged. Can you give them a % chance to clear off when they start spurting oil/smoke?

similarly, can you set a random chance (possibly veterancy related) that a plane which ran out of bombs/deep charges/torpedoes, clear off the area even if it got machine gun bullets left?

the parachute added to them by Fx Update is cool, but it looks a bit odd when it is spawns just on top of water surface. Can you make prevent this from happening? Can you set instead a random chance that a plane damaged and losing altitude spawns a parachute long before it crashes on water.

someties the hurricane started firing its guns while approaching the sub, but long before it started its attack dive, as if it was firing at nothing? Can this weird behaviour be fixed?

P.S: If you want to test yourself, here are the missions I and Volodya are using for our tests:

http://rapidshare.com/files/2002255920/AA%20Guns%20Test%20Missions.rar

tested with Fx Update and IRAI (latest versions) enabled ;)

TheDarkWraith

01-19-13, 11:01 PM

Talking about airplanes AI and damage, I have the following remarks:

airplanes don't give up their attack even when they are heavily damaged. Can you give them a % chance to clear off when they start spurting oil/smoke?

similarly, can you set a random chance (possibly veterancy related) that a plane which ran out of bombs/deep charges/torpedoes, clear off the area even if it got machine gun bullets left?

the parachute added to them by Fx Update is cool, but it looks a bit odd when it is spawns just on top of water surface. Can you make prevent this from happening? Can you set instead a random chance that a plane damaged and losing altitude spawns a parachute long before it crashes on water.

someties the hurricane started firing its guns while approaching the sub, but long before it started its attack dive, as if it was firing at nothing? Can this weird behaviour be fixed?
The Airplane AI gives no way to determine the amount of damage to a unit like the ship AI does. Thus many things I wanted to do cannot be done with them. Airplane AI is very limited in the number of functions the devs made available to us.

I cannot even set a random chance with the airplane AI. I cannot even tell how many bombs or guns the airplane AI has left. All I can get gun and bombs wise is can fire guns and can fire bombs. I told you it's very limited what you can do with airplane AI.

I should be able to prevent the parachute from opening past a certain height. I'll look into it.

I'll look at IRAI and see why the airplane would be shooting it guns when it shouldn't be.

gap

01-19-13, 11:24 PM

[/LIST] The Airplane AI gives no way to determine the amount of damage to a unit like the ship AI does. Thus many things I wanted to do cannot be done with them. Airplane AI is very limited in the number of functions the devs made available to us.

I cannot even set a random chance with the airplane AI. I cannot even tell how many bombs or guns the airplane AI has left. All I can get gun and bombs wise is can fire guns and can fire bombs. I told you it's very limited what you can do with airplane AI.

I should be able to prevent the parachute from opening past a certain height. I'll look into it.

I'll look at IRAI and see why the airplane would be shooting it guns when it shouldn't be.

Oakay :up:

Have you seen the resuts of my last set of tests? Look promising ;)

Rongel

01-20-13, 09:04 AM

gap

01-20-13, 09:31 AM

Hi again! I started to wonder that should this mod include also a torpedo damage modification. According to that thesis I read, German captains had to use several torpedoes to sink bigger ships. Just one magnetic detonation torpedo could destroy a big ship when it explodes under it, but magnetic detonation was forbidden to use, as it was too unreliable during the first three years of the war. Normal impact detonation torpedoes didn't cause that kind of damage, so several torpedoes were needed to sink bigger ships.

I don't know if magnetic detonation damage is modelled in the game, torpedo that explodes under the hull should cause catastrophical damage. Is that something that can be modded, TDW ???

Anyway, in my opinion the torpedo damage shouldn't bee too high, one ship, one torpedo just didn't seem to be accurate guideline according to my sources.

You are correct Rongel, we should deal with weapon's damages (from shells, to torpedoes to depth charges and bombs), and with unit's hit points. Everything needs to be checked and eventually rebalanced.

I think that weight and type of bursting charge of each weapon can be taken as a reference of what damage it could have done compared to similar weapons. Relative effectiveness factors (compared to TNT) of most of the explosive in use during WWII are available on the web. See for instance here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_effectiveness_factor) and here (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.htm) (scroll down towards mid page).

Note also that, according to the latter article:

The effect of the burster may be taken as being proportional to the square root of the weight of the bursting charge.

Hit point for units and for their zones are a bit more aleatory though, as I don't really know which objective measure we could take as reference of the damage they could have taken before being destroyed in real life.

All in all, I think we should base our settings on common sense and on descriptive accounts, taken from sources like the ones you have just mentioned. :yep:

volodya61

01-20-13, 07:37 PM

I've played around elevation animation.. and I'll show you why I did it..

Fx Update + NewUIs + IRAI + test C30.sim + test mission #2 (VIIc, wind 0, veterancy - elite)

stock C30, reload time 5, ammo 500, all stop, battlestations activated, medium range, fire at closing targets
elevation animation removed

shots to down: 40|23|53|38|71|37|60|31|39|50

stock C30, reload time 5, ammo 500, all stop, battlestations activated, medium range, fire at closing targets
Elevation anim: end_index 5.81, start_index 0.01

shots to down: 24|60|50|73|31|40|80|52|27|80

That's why:

http://s19.postimage.org/d3tnum4ub/SH5_Img_2013_01_21_1.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

http://s19.postimage.org/sdy4fjpqb/SH5_Img_2013_01_21_2.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

I think we need a complete removal of the animation only for/during testing of other parameters.
We just need to make fine tune the values of end_index and start_index..
and all what I need are single missions with all types of guns on board..

gap

01-20-13, 08:05 PM

I've played around elevation animation.. and I'll show you why I did it..

....

That's why:

...

I know those animations had to be there for a reason. Anyway do you know what is weird? I have never seen my crw manning the flak guns. Guns move by themselves... I wonder if something is broken in my game :-?

I think we need a complete removal of the animation only for/during testing of other parameters.
We just need to make fine tune the values of end_index and start_index..
and all what I need are single missions with all types of guns on board..

I will see what I can do ;)

gap

01-21-13, 07:28 PM

I have never seen my crew manning the flak guns

I think I have discovered why my gunners where invisible: I used to enable battlestations (without locking on the plane in binocular view) for making the flaks to fire on any flying target. After using the spacebar, my phantom gunners acquired back their normal appearance of visible living beings :03:

Does it work the same for you?

volodya61

01-21-13, 09:00 PM

I think I have discovered why my gunners where invisible: I used to enable battlestations (without locking on the plane in binocular view) for making the flaks to fire on any flying target. After using the spacebar, my phantom gunners acquired back their normal appearance of visible living beings :03:

Does it work the same for you?

:o
No..
Since I've installed NewUIs last May I've never used binocular.. only the order's bar.. and I always see the gunners animation..

http://s19.postimage.org/ptbdudatf/SH5_Img_2013_01_22_2.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

volodya61

01-22-13, 01:27 PM

and all what I need are single missions with all types of guns on board..

I will see what I can do ;)

Are there any good news?

PS: just want to include Reworked Sub guns/gunners in the release of my pack.. :oops: :03:

gap

01-22-13, 06:39 PM

Are there any good news?

Sorry Volodya, lately I have been quite busy with other stuff :oops:

All I can promise right now is that I will look at it within the next week end. Maybe before the week end ;)

PS: just want to include Reworked Sub guns/gunners in the release of my pack.. :oops: :03:

That is good!

I doubt the final version of this mod will be ready before you release your pack, but I am sure we will make in time for including in it various bug fixes :up:

gap

01-22-13, 06:47 PM

:o
No..
Since I've installed NewUIs last May I've never used binocular.. only the order's bar.. and I always see the gunners animation..

not so for me :-?

nother issue I have noticed is that if I simply give the order "fire at will" from WO orders bar, but without enabling battlestations, my guns won't fire. :hmmm:

Have you enable TDW's crew awakening patch, by any chance?

volodya61

01-22-13, 06:54 PM

not so for me :-?

nother issue I have noticed is that if I simply give the order "fire at will" from WO orders bar, but without enabling battlestations, my guns won't fire. :hmmm:

that's weird.. :hmmm:

Have you enable TDW's crew awakening patch, by any chance?

Yes, I've enable all patches except AI crew damage control..

gap

01-22-13, 07:02 PM

Yes, I've enable all patches except AI crew damage control..

This might explain many things :yep:

volodya61

01-22-13, 07:07 PM

This might explain many things :yep:

you think your issues caused by disabled patches? :hmmm:

gap

01-22-13, 07:14 PM

you think your issues caused by disabled patches? :hmmm:

not exactly, I think (or at least I hope) that my issues are just stock bugs which were fixed by TDW. During my tests I wanted to keep my SH5 as "clean" as possible, so I am currently playing with a fresh copy of SH5.exe.

When I get time I will enable TDW's patches and see what happens next :03:

volodya61

01-22-13, 07:20 PM

During my tests I wanted to keep my SH5 as "clean" as possible, so I am currently playing with a fresh copy of SH5.exe.

I forgot about that. I always have it patched :oops:

gap

01-22-13, 07:27 PM

I forgot about that. I always have it patched :oops:

I think those patches won't affect gun's specs anyway (TDW would have noted it), not to mention the fact that this mod has to be compatible with them.

In other words, you can safely keep them enabled :up:

gap

01-24-13, 06:28 PM

volodya61

01-24-13, 06:47 PM

Any idea? I am afraid that testing every single flak gun in campaign will take way too long, at this stage...

How Wamphyri has tested all these guns while working on his mod?

gap

01-24-13, 07:35 PM

How Wamphyri has tested all these guns while working on his mod?

He asked the same question, long ago:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167090

It seems he is still visiting the forum, maybe we can ask him :hmmm:

Rongel

01-25-13, 01:33 AM

I have already tried everything I can think of for changing U-boat's standard flak guns used in custom mission, but with no apparent result.

Neither eqp settings, nor SUBMARINE_AMMO settings in Basic.cfg seem to have any effect in game. :-?

Any idea? I am afraid that testing every single flak gun in campaign will take way too long, at this stage...

This maybe a long shot, but did you try opening your custom missions .misge file and checking the dates? My torpedoes were using the default date 1.1.1940, no matter what I put in the mission editor. After fixing the file, I got correct loadout.

gap

01-25-13, 02:19 PM

This maybe a long shot, but did you try opening your custom missions .misge file and checking the dates? My torpedoes were using the default date 1.1.1940, no matter what I put in the mission editor. After fixing the file, I got correct loadout.

Hi Rongel, thank you for your suggestion :)

however our problem is not getting correct armament loadouts, but getting player's U-boat equipped with any flak gun we need to test, correct or not :hmmm:

volodya61

01-25-13, 03:18 PM

gap

01-25-13, 04:34 PM

..thought :hmmm:

Maybe possible to make something like a test campaign, which will include all types of boats and all types of weapon's upgrades and make campaign missions against enemy aircrafts near the home base. Then we could enable it via JSGME and start a new campaign using 'silentotto' and test all what we want. :06:

:hmmm:

Your idea may be good, but I wouldn't know how to implement it, and I am sure there must be an easier way to do get those guns in ours hand.

For a start I will PM Wamphyri :yep:

volodya61

01-25-13, 05:15 PM

Also in future we could use this test campaign to any tests subs, ships, aircrafts and their equipment and weapons, which we not able to test in the single missions..

..but I wouldn't know how to implement it..

I'm reminded of a magical name - Trevally :D

gap

01-25-13, 05:51 PM

For a start I will PM Wamphyri :yep:

Done! (check your PM) ;)

I'm reminded of a magical name - Trevally :D

You don't need to remind me of him: Trevally is a constant presence in my most extravagant modding fantasies :D

Trevally.

01-25-13, 05:59 PM

You don't need to remind me of him: Trevally is a constant presence in my most extravagant modding fantasies :D

:o :eek:

If you guys need a campaign with your mission within - id be happy to make it:up:

gap

01-25-13, 06:24 PM

:o :eek:

If you guys need a campaign with your mission within - id be happy to make it:up:

Thank you Trevally, my fantasies came true! :haha: :O:

For the time being, could you design a simple campaign, with a subcampaign each 6 months, each of them featuring an enemy elite plane circling around Kiel, just outside the bunker? Something very simple: I don't want you to waste your time on it :yep:

What do you think Volodya?

Trevally.

01-25-13, 06:34 PM

gap

01-25-13, 07:27 PM

Sorry Gap - it won't work like that. The stock or OHII campaign needs to be the base.

We can add any mission you like into the campaign and it would be loaded into the game by selecting "request mission" from the KMO.
If you want mission over a few years - then Volodya was correct and this would be selected by using silent otto.

Add an all equip free mod and you would need to kit out your boat before getting mission from kmo.

Save the game before mission starts so it can be re-run if required.

The missions can have any units spawned by trigger/event of just always there. So you can have plane after plane arrive when shot down or whatever

I am afraid I wouldn't be able to play those campaign based missions anyway: since my last visit in (the dusty and bumpy) Africa, my laptop started oveheating and switching off every time I play the game too long, or when there is too much gfx stuff around. Time to open the case and see what is going on with the fan, or to buy a new computer at all :-?

In the meanwhile, I think it is better if you discuss the topic with Volodya :yep:

V13dweller

01-26-13, 01:13 AM

If you need a test done on a high power computer, I have one.
Specs are AMD Phenom II X-6
Nvidia GTX 570
32 GB of RAM
And 120 GB of Solid state Hard drive.

volodya61

01-26-13, 01:21 AM

I'm afraid that my knowledge of the language is not enough to discuss :nope:
I meant something like this -

http://s19.postimage.org/mqg67hj43/test_campaign.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Make it as an addon to the OHII campaign.. and in these test campaigns might be include any missions that we need to test..
Is this simple/easy work or..?
Is this possible at all?

Trevally.

01-26-13, 05:09 AM

Hi Guys:sunny:

Yes Volodya - that would work, but it would mean making new projects and adding them into the campaign pys and menueditor (making icons etc)

An easier way would be to do what I did for the "Training" objectives. This is when you got a type C (MareNosrtum & WesternApproaches) or the type c41 (Turining point) I made the first objective to sink 4 small hulk ships just outside Kiel.

I can edit those objectives to add aeroplanes or anything you want to test against.
I can then do the same for TG to test the type a and HT to test the type b.
So this would give the first objective for each of these campaigns as a training test just outside port (50km to reduce PC strain).

CoastalWaters = test type a
HappyTimes = test type b
WesternApproaches = test type c
TurningPoint = test type c41

So would you need a test for the type A:hmmm:
Could the whole lot (every gun) not be tested by using the type C41 in Turning Point if we edit the equip file for dates and cost:hmmm:
This would save a lot of time:yep:

Also - how do you want the aeroplane to show up.
We can have 1 or as many as you want attacking.
Do you want new ones to appear when you shoot some down.
Do you want any ships to attack:D

:Kaleun_Los:

volodya61

01-26-13, 06:05 AM

Hi Trevally! :sunny:

An easier way would be to do what I did for the "Training" objectives. This is when you got a type C (MareNosrtum & WesternApproaches) or the type c41 (Turining point) I made the first objective to sink 4 small hulk ships just outside Kiel.

This is great! :yeah:

So would you need a test for the type A:hmmm:
Could the whole lot (every gun) not be tested by using the type C41 in Turning Point if we edit the equip file for dates and cost:hmmm:
This would save a lot of time:yep:

I'm not sure exactly.. is it possible to equip VIIC/41 with any AA-guns :hmmm:.. I'll check it and will tell you..

Also - how do you want the aeroplane to show up.
We can have 1 or as many as you want attacking.
Do you want new ones to appear when you shoot some down.

I think one aircraft (maybe Hurricane) would be enough.. save before and then reload each time..

Do you want any ships to attack:D

Yes, but I'll test the deck guns later.. first of all I want to test all AA-guns.. Rongel might require ships to test torpedoes though..

Gap, what do you think about?

PS: Trevally you are the best!

V13dweller

01-26-13, 06:45 AM

This is not a gun spec, it is a historical ship speed spec, the Cimmaron Class tanker has it's speed set to 12 knots, but in reality, it could go 18.
Could this be addressed in this thread?

Trevally.

01-26-13, 07:30 AM

Ok - I have it made and am testing now:up:
It will give you a plane to attack when you get to the training range in TP (as well as the four hulks).
Weap officed has been told to give you any type of weapon you want at no cost:03:

So save before switching weapons in the bunker (reload here to try new guns)
Save just before getting to the gun range (reload here to retest same gun)

volodya61

01-26-13, 08:07 AM

I'm not sure exactly.. is it possible to equip VIIC/41 with any AA-guns :hmmm:.. I'll check it and will tell you..

OK.. I have checked.. we need two sub types - VIIC and VIIC/41 because on the top of VIIC/41 conning tower we can put only couple AA-guns, not single.. so we need VIIC/41 for test 37mm AA-guns and we need VIIC for test 20mm single AA-guns

Ok - I have it made and am testing now:up:
It will give you a plane to attack when you get to the training range in TP (as well as the four hulks).

:yeah:

Weap officed has been told to give you any type of weapon you want at no cost:03:

I have already edited upgrades.ups file in the Equipment Upgrades mod.. :D

Trevally.

01-26-13, 09:08 AM

Anyone wanting to test:-
Install with jsgme http://www.4sync.com/archive/cMp_S7Ek/GunTest_TurningPoint.html
Load game using OHIIv2
Use silentotto to start new campaign (WA or TP)
Save/load in bunker
Talk to Upgrade Dude for your guns to test
Talk to KMO and ask for mission
Pick the training mission
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4201/47163594.jpg

Head out to the gun range with your new guns:D
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/9224/89063719.jpg

Save you game again before you reach the range (this is your main reload point for retesting the same mission/guns
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2412/24171682.jpg

Keep an eye on the sky
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3121/88993480.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6847/61494395.jpg

Some issues:oops:

1. the plane gets attacked by luftwaffe - fix by reload your save point from before reaching range
2. plan goes off and attacks a passing ship - fix by reload again
:up:

volodya61

01-26-13, 09:44 AM

Anyone wanting to test:-
Install with jsgme http://www.4sync.com/archive/cMp_S7Ek/GunTest_TurningPoint.html

You are my hero!

WA for VIIC
TA for VIIC/41
correct?

Some issues:oops:
1. the plane gets attacked by luftwaffe - fix by reload your save point from before reaching range
2. plan goes off and attacks a passing ship - fix by reload again
:up:

I knew it :O: but everything has its price :03:

Sooo.. I am able now to test C30, C30_2, C38 Twin, C38 Twin_shield with VIIC and 37mm M, 37mm SA, Vierling with VIIC/41.. but..

37mm TSA :hmmm::06:

Who know what the gun is it?
anyone?

gap

01-26-13, 10:29 AM

If you need a test done on a high power computer, I have one.
Specs are AMD Phenom II X-6
Nvidia GTX 570
32 GB of RAM
And 120 GB of Solid state Hard drive.

WOW, nice specs. I will keep you informed on any special test that we will plan :up:

This is not a gun spec, it is a historical ship speed spec, the Cimmaron Class tanker has it's speed set to 12 knots, but in reality, it could go 18.

Its max speed setting in cfg file is 12 kn, whereas the same setting in sim file is 15 kn :hmmm:

Could this be addressed in this thread?

It can and it will :yep:

gap

01-26-13, 10:36 AM

Ok - I have it made and am testing now:up:

Thank you veeery much Trevally! you are our deus ex machina :yep:

37mm TSA :hmmm::06:

Who know what the gun is it?
anyone?

Flak M42 (37mm) twin mount ;)

Rongel

01-26-13, 11:23 AM

So here it is, reworked torpedo malfunctions that try to mimic historical values. All aspects of the malfunctions are working, except I doubt that lowering torpedos speed doesn't have any affect on duds.

Beginning of the war is the time of the "Torpedo Crisis" where Germany had really serious problems with their torpedoes. According to my sources the malfunction rate was something between 30-40 percents. But when the "Happy Times" arrived, there were several improvements in torpedoes, and especially dud rates were lowered. Still the magnetic detonation was faulty, and it was prohibited to use. It was fixed in 1942.

So to make it simple, in start of the war there are lots and lots of malfunctions, but relatively soon, in start of the june 1940 most of them are fixed and it should be smooth sailing.

Please try this out and report your experiences here, testing random values is a... well you know.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ga2kxztkza70gj4

gap

01-26-13, 11:43 AM

So here it is...

Wunderbar, Rongel! :yeah:

I have just updated the first page with a link to your test mod. Let's hope that posible beta testers won't miss it! ;)

Rongel

01-26-13, 01:02 PM

Wunderbar, Rongel! :yeah:

I have just updated the first page with a link to your test mod. Let's hope that posible beta testers won't miss it! ;)

Thanks again Gap! It might be that some people are hesitant to the idea sabotaging their torpedoes though... :D

gap

01-26-13, 01:55 PM

Thanks again Gap! It might be that some people are hesitant to the idea sabotaging their torpedoes though... :D

this is an undesired effect that I didn't think of at first :haha:

what about concealing your nefarious tweaks within the next Open Horizon's version? :hmm2: :03:

volodya61

01-26-13, 03:29 PM

Flak M42 (37mm) twin mount ;)

OK.. and where can I get this gun? :hmmm: it doesn't presented neither in stock, nor in Equipment Upgrades..
??

So here it is...

Well done.. Thanks! :salute:

gap

01-26-13, 05:03 PM

OK.. and where can I get this gun? :hmmm: it doesn't presented neither in stock, nor in Equipment Upgrades..
??

hmmm you are right,
it is not among selectable upgrades. Yet, the gun is present in the Objects/Guns folders and in the upgrades charts, under the name "M42 Zwilling" :hmmm: :06:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=329&pictureid=4035

Probably another broken feature that devs forgot to fix. I will try and see if we can bring it back in game :salute:

V13dweller

01-27-13, 09:14 AM

What exactly is the "Reflector Base" in the CFG files of some ships?:hmmm:

Also, I fixed the Cimmaron Tankers speed by setting it's CFG speed to 18 :D

gap

01-27-13, 10:46 AM

What exactly is the "Reflector Base" in the CFG files of some ships?:hmmm:

They are... the reflectors: the spotligts they are pointing at enemy units during night attacks :up:

Also, I fixed the Cimmaron Tankers speed by setting it's CFG speed to 18 :D

I am not sure if changing that setting alone will be enough. Probably, you should also change the max speed setting found in unit's sim file ;)

V13dweller

01-27-13, 11:15 AM

Im not sure what program is needed to open SIM files. :hmmm:

gap

01-27-13, 11:29 AM

Im not sure what program is needed to open SIM files. :hmmm:

easy: run GoblinEditorApp.exe (found in main SH5 folder), open NOL_T03.GR2 with it, and merge then NOL_T03.sim. Double click then on the unit_Ship controller, in 'Project Tree' window, select again unit_Ship in the following 'existing behaviors' tree, and navigate to Propulsion => Propellers. The property you need to change is called max_speed.

Once finished, close the 'edit behavior' window, right click on NOL_T03.sim in 'Project Tree' window, and select save file :up:

V13dweller

01-27-13, 11:57 AM

gap

01-27-13, 12:12 PM

When I merge the file it says "You don't have the actor DLLs for the following controller types
Water reflection
cmdr_AIship
obj_funnel
unit_ship
Please get the appropriate actor DLLs"
Could you also simplify this as much as you can? because I have never used this before.

yes, following this guide (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1328039&postcount=1) should solve your dll's problem :yep:

Moreover, before you run again GoblinEditorApp.exe you should right click on it in order to display its property window, and in the 'compatibility' tab, check the box 'disable visual themes':

http://en.community.dell.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/550x550/__key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/3518/7041.DisableVisualThemes.JPG

This will solve a problem with flickerings drop-down selection boxes in the editor :up:

V13dweller

01-28-13, 12:46 AM

Thanks gap, I have edited the file and now the Cimmaron runs at it's realistic speed.
Also, Is it possible to set how fast the propellers spin? in case you have not noticed, some ships propellers spin impossibly slow, the best example is the Liberty ship, or the type C2-s ship.

V13dweller

01-28-13, 01:24 AM

I am now looking for the Historical engine RPM's now, after finding out how to set the speed and RPM in Goblin Editor.:D
Also, how can I view the weapons on the ships, and edit them?
And could you also tell me where I can increase the armour on ships?
Because I would like to correct the weak armour on the Graf Zeppelin and if I need to, others.

Rongel

01-28-13, 05:36 AM

Here is one idea that I've been thinking about. Well, it's also TDW's FX update issue. Airplanes and AA-guns create a lot of debris when using FX update. The debris floats and doesn't dissapear. Bigger battles start to stutter soon, and particle effects become bugged.

So it would be really nice to add a option to remove the debris from smaller AA-guns, deck guns and cannons are still okay, the fire rate is much slower. Maybe revert back to stock settings (can't remember anymore the effect). This way we could get large battles without computers melting (maybe even port air-raids :o).

I know TDW is a busy man, so maybe it could be added with this mod???

gap

01-28-13, 10:45 AM

Thanks gap, I have edited the file and now the Cimmaron runs at it's realistic speed.

Glad you managed to do it by yourself! :up:

If possible I would like to add realistic ships and planes specs to the list of features of the present mod.

Maybe you could take care of this aspect. What do you think?

Also, Is it possible to set how fast the propellers spin? in case you have not noticed, some ships propellers spin impossibly slow, the best example is the Liberty ship, or the type C2-s ship.

unit_Ship => Propulsion => eng_rpm
(same group as max_speed) ;)

Please note that Engine's max (max_force) force and max power (eng_power) can be set as well. Should we mess with these parameters? :hmmm:

I am now looking for the Historical engine RPM's now, after finding out how to set the speed and RPM in Goblin Editor.:D

Yes, please, do it!

Also, how can I view the weapons on the ships, and edit them?

fro their .eqp file :yep:

historical gun armaments will be an important feature of this mod. ;)

And could you also tell me where I can increase the armour on ships?
Because I would like to correct the weak armour on the Graf Zeppelin and if I need to, others.

This is a bit more complicated.

For a start, there is a main armour setting, found in unit's zon file (ColisionableObject => ArmorLevel).
Moreover the same zon file contains information on the various zones placed around the unit (engine room, conning tower, tanks, ballast, propeller, etc).
Damage properties for each zone type are defined in Zones.cfg. Zone definition set in this file can be shared by several units. Among the various zone-specific properties, there are armor settings. Zones armor can be an absolute value, or a percentage of parent object's armor. In most cases parent object is the main unit itself, so main ArmorLevel setting is used as base.

I could go into details but since you are moving your first steps into SH5 modding, I am afraid I would confuse you. Just tell me if you want to know more :salute:

Adjusting unit's armor levels and creating new zones definitions will be another important part of this project. :yep:

Here is one idea that I've been thinking about. Well, it's also TDW's FX update issue. Airplanes and AA-guns create a lot of debris when using FX update. The debris floats and doesn't dissapear. Bigger battles start to stutter soon, and particle effects become bugged.

So it would be really nice to add a option to remove the debris from smaller AA-guns, deck guns and cannons are still okay, the fire rate is much slower. Maybe revert back to stock settings (can't remember anymore the effect). This way we could get large battles without computers melting (maybe even port air-raids :o).

I know TDW is a busy man, so maybe it could be added with this mod???

:hmmm:

the idea is good, though reducing the number of debris, and making them to sink after a short while instead of totally getting rid of them, seem to me a better option. ;)

In any case, I don't know where to start from. Can you start having a look at Fx Update, while we are waiting for TDW to come back and to give us some cue. :D

gap

01-28-13, 10:54 AM

Thanks again Gap! It might be that some people are hesitant to the idea sabotaging their torpedoes though... :D

Rongel,
could you please post a chart showing the new failure settings for each torpedo?

gap

01-28-13, 02:42 PM

Yesterday I have been working on the twin flak M42, in an attempt to make it available as U-boat upgrade.

I have been successful, in part: the gun is displayed in the upgrades interface among other heavy AA guns, and it is fitted aboard the sub if selected.

Nonetheless, when I try walking toward it, my avatar "freezes" (I get stuck in front of it), audio changes (the bunker background sound gets replaced by a more generic ambience sound), and the screen is filled with dynamic waterdrops. I can still exit the game, give orders by way of the UI, and even navigate elsewhere using the shortcuts, but as soon I try approaching the gun again, I get stuck like before... :-? :hmmm:

Seems a wrong camera setting. Maybe this explain why devs didn't include the game in game. Nonetheless, I will try and see if I can spot a mistake from my part.

gap

01-28-13, 07:44 PM

Just ran another test.

This time I changed the ExternalLinkName3D setting of the M42 Zwilling (found in Weapons.upc), making it to point to the 37mmM gun model (Flak SK C/30), instead than 37mmTSA. All other settings unchanged.

Supposing that there was any error in my settings, I expected that the "stand-in" M42 would have been affected by the same problem as the "real" M42 during my previous test. :know:

Unfortunately, this time I could walk around the gun and man it with no problem. This fact seems to demonstrate that the problem is either in 37mmTSA.GR2, 37mmTSA.sim or 37mmTSA.cam. :-? :hmm2:

Any idea on what can be wrong with them, guys?

A screeshot showing the gun during my first test. It was taken just after I had got stuck around it (note the waterdrops):

http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/715/sh5img20130129005710.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6532/sh5img20130129005710.jpg)

gap

01-28-13, 08:13 PM

A comparison between the working single mount M42 (on the left), and the flawed twin mount (on the right):

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5613/comparisonbk.jpg

Can you spot the error? Aren't the last 3 bones misplaced? As far as I can understand, they should have the subset 37mmTSA_Body as parent, and not 37mmTSA_Barrel, as it is currently :hmmm:

volodya61

01-29-13, 12:38 AM

Can you spot the error? Aren't the last 3 bones misplaced? As far as I can understand, they should have the subset 37mmTSA_Body as parent, and not 37mmTSA_Barrel, as it is currently :hmmm:

Could this be corrected with the GR2 Editor/Viewer? :06:

Rongel

01-29-13, 05:32 AM

Rongel,
could you please post a chart showing the new failure settings for each torpedo?

Yes, I can do that, but again it goes to next weekend. And also the numbers are not so simple to decipher, for example premature torpedoes have 300 % possibility to explode in high wind speeds, still it doesn't happen every time. So it's not 0-100% scale in all the options.

Had and idea to add some radiomessages concerning the malfunctions, there were many authentic messsages in the thesis I read, that are not used currently in game.

gap

01-29-13, 01:10 PM

Could this be corrected with the GR2 Editor/Viewer? :06:

After some tweaks with the GR2 Editor, this is how the twin gun looks in Goblin (see image below, on the right):

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5613/comparisonbk.jpg

As you can see, the bone structure is now almost identical to the one of the single gun (on the left). Unfortunately, this didn't solve the weird problem...

volodya61

01-29-13, 01:53 PM

Let us hope that TDW will back in two-three weeks and decide this issue..
This problem has been waiting for three years and I think a couple of weeks will wait :D

gap

01-29-13, 02:00 PM

Let us hope that TDW will back in two-three weeks and decide this issue..
This problem has been waiting for three years and I think a couple of weeks will wait :D

Wise words, if only I could apply them...

tracking down the problem and fixing it, is becoming a matter of personal pride for me :O: :D

volodya61

01-29-13, 02:12 PM

You know, he is only interested what he is interested and not the fact that he will interested in this problem..

PS: aren't there too much the words "interested"? :haha:

gap

01-29-13, 03:35 PM

Yes, I can do that, but again it goes to next weekend.

No hurry, Rongel. Take your time on it :)

And also the numbers are not so simple to decipher, for example premature torpedoes have 300 % possibility to explode in high wind speeds, still it doesn't happen every time. So it's not 0-100% scale in all the options.

Does it mean that the chance of premature detonations is 3 times higher than normal in rough seas :06:

Had and idea to add some radiomessages concerning the malfunctions, there were many authentic messsages in the thesis I read, that are not used currently in game.

Good idea! do you know how to add those messages in game?

You know, he is only interested what he is interested and not the fact that he will interested in this problem..

PS: aren't there too much the words "interested"? :haha:

I am not sure I have got your point. Did you mean that it is in our interest interesting him into getting interested in this interesting problem, by any chance? :hmm2:

volodya61

01-29-13, 04:39 PM

Did you mean that it is in our interest interesting him into getting interested in this interesting problem, by any chance? :hmm2:

:har: yes.. something similar..

Rongel

01-30-13, 03:38 AM

Does it mean that the chance of premature detonations is 3 times higher than normal in rough seas :06:

Well something like that, currently wind speed zero premature possibility is 80 % which maybe is 40 percents in reality. The numbers are calculated in a crazy manner, I think TDW explained in some mail what kind of a maze it is. So the only way to get the numbers right is to test and test and test...

Good idea! do you know how to add those messages in game?

I do! :D Just made a test last night, and it worked in custom mission, so I think it will work also in campaign!

Thinking about to start the game from scratch again, so that I can test these in real situation (and to get longer repair times mod to kick in!)... :o

gap

01-30-13, 07:12 AM

The numbers are calculated in a crazy manner, I think TDW explained in some mail what kind of a maze it is. So the only way to get the numbers right is to test and test and test...

If you find the PM by TDW, we could try to put those formulas in a spreadsheet, for it to do the calculations automatically...

I do! Just made a test last night, and it worked in custom mission, so I think it will work also in campaign!

Cool! Please go on with them :yep:

Thinking about to start the game from scratch again, so that I can test these in real situation (and to get longer repair times mod to kick in!)... :o

http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/58.gif Added SH 5 Longer Repairs to the compatibility list :up:

volodya61

01-30-13, 07:33 AM

@ Rongel

I'm playing around EUF mod now and I've noticed that your Longer Repairs mod is not compatible with it.. it's compatible with the main EUF mod but not with the Patch1..

@ Gap

Noticed your post in the Sober's thread :D :03:

gap

01-30-13, 07:51 AM

Noticed your post in the Sober's thread :D :03:

...and what do you think? :hmm2:

PS: okay, I have just noticed you har already posted there ;)

Rongel

01-30-13, 09:06 AM

@ Rongel

I'm playing around EUF mod now and I've noticed that your Longer Repairs mod is not compatible with it.. it's compatible with the main EUF mod but not with the Patch1..

Argh, must check this... Thanks for letting me know!

volodya61

01-30-13, 10:51 AM

...and what do you think? :hmm2:

PS: okay, I have just noticed you har already posted there ;)

What I think?
I think it's a great job, but it's a pity that still unfinished..

gap

01-30-13, 11:21 AM

What I think?
I think it's a great job, but it's a pity that still unfinished..

What, Equipment Upgrades Fix?

volodya61

01-30-13, 11:27 AM

What, Equipment Upgrades Fix?

:yep:

gap

01-30-13, 11:41 AM

:yep:

Why do you think that it is still unfinished? :hmmm:

volodya61

01-30-13, 12:18 PM

Why do you think that it is still unfinished? :hmmm:

Well.. the following reasons..
There inside are the remains of unfinished work with the scopes.. and camos are not working correctly, but it's probably the exe-file issue.. also M42 Zwilling is not presented.. dates are not adjusted etc..
Generally, there is a work to do..

gap

01-30-13, 12:59 PM

Since this mod it is going to be featured in part in our project, I could try fixing some of the issues you have reported :yep:

Well.. the following reasons..
There inside are the remains of unfinished work with the scopes..

Can you please clarify this point? What kind of work was done with the scopes and why it is still unfinished? Would it be okay if we removed unfinished equipments from the list of available upgrades?

and camos are not working correctly, but it's probably the exe-file issue..

Yes, this is an old SH5 problem, not related with this mod. I am afraid there is nothing we can do for it atm... :-?

also M42 Zwilling is not presented..

Fixing this problem should be possible. If everything else fails, we can always take the 37mmSA GR2 file, and replace its meshes with the ones from the zwilling ;)

dates are not adjusted etc..

Currently working on them... :up:
though this work is getting longer than expected :hmph:

I am also trying rebalancing upgrades renown costs. What do you think about them? In general, are stock renown requirements to high/low, compared with Open Horizon's rewards? :hmm2:

volodya61

01-30-13, 02:01 PM

Can you please clarify this point? What kind of work was done with the scopes and why it is still unfinished?

It seems TB wanted/tried to add a new tab (scopes) to the sensors/weapons upgrades screen but it didn't work.. the files contain lines with this work..

Would it be okay if we removed unfinished equipments from the list of available upgrades?

There is nothing to remove because it didn't work yet..

Yes, this is an old SH5 problem, not related with this mod. I am afraid there is nothing we can do for it atm... :-?

The fact is that in game shows only camos which already were in stock and those that he added.. the stock camos that were in the folder tex but which were not enabled in the stock are not shown.. I mean in the game.. in the upgrades screen they completely available, but in the game :nope:..

Fixing this problem should be possible. If everything else fails, we can always take the 37mmSA GR2 file, and replace its meshes with the ones from the zwilling ;)

:up:

Currently working on them... :up:
though this work is getting longer than expected :hmph:

I already corrected all the dates.. not based on historical accuracy :O:.. based on campaigns dates.. :D better than nothing..

I am also trying rebalancing upgrades renown costs. What do you think about them? In general, are stock renown requirements to high/low, compared with Open Horizon's rewards? :hmm2:

I've never used renown for upgrades.. in my game everything always free.. :oops:
so nothing to say..:03:

gap

01-30-13, 03:06 PM

It seems TB wanted/tried to add a new tab (scopes) to the sensors/weapons upgrades screen but it didn't work.. the files contain lines with this work..

There is nothing to remove because it didn't work yet..

No "wrong" (broken or inservible) equipment shown in upgrades menu?

The fact is that in game shows only camos which already were in stock and those that he added.. the stock camos that were in the folder tex but which were not enabled in the stock are not shown.. I mean in the game.. in the upgrades screen they completely available, but in the game :nope:..

I see

I already corrected all the dates.. not based on historical accuracy :O:.. based on campaigns dates.. :D better than nothing..

I've never used renown for upgrades.. in my game everything always free.. :oops:
so nothing to say..:03:

I am doing my best to set historical availability dates :)

volodya61

01-30-13, 03:48 PM

No "wrong" (broken or inservible) equipment shown in upgrades menu?

No.. just weird thing.. I can't see the image for "Bold1" (decoy launcher) for subs 7A and 7B although I made it available since 01.09.39.. I think some other files are responsible for this, which are not included in EUF..

gap

01-30-13, 05:15 PM

No.. just weird thing.. I can't see the image for "Bold1" (decoy launcher) for subs 7A and 7B although I made it available since 01.09.39.. I think some other files are responsible for this, which are not included in EUF..

Ok I will have a glance at those bolds. What about periscopes?

gap

01-30-13, 08:42 PM

Guys, I feel like I had just found a gold mine: :D

Hi & need help with damage model (http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1378&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mareesme/Other%20Funny%20Stuff/animated.gif

Wolfpack345

01-30-13, 09:21 PM

This looks Amazing! :yeah: Thank you for your hard work!!!! I can't Wait:up::salute:

volodya61

01-31-13, 01:40 AM

What about periscopes?

:06: didn't quite understand the question :oops:.. what do you mean?

V13dweller

01-31-13, 12:18 PM

This is for Gap. http://www.mediafire.com/view/?2ugkccsic26r7vl

Regarding U boat Starshells.

They don't seem to do anything but explode like normal shells.

gap

01-31-13, 12:52 PM

This is for Gap. http://www.mediafire.com/view/?2ugkccsic26r7vl

Regarding U boat Starshells.

They don't seem to do anything but explode like normal shells.

haha, nice test. :up:

How did you add them?

V13dweller

01-31-13, 01:03 PM

I didn't manually add them, when I tested the 105mm Deck gun once, they were just there, Ill give you my mod list, to see if that helps.
Open Horizons II Full V2
Accurate German flags
Cerburus62 Historical Ship equipment
Auxiliary Cruiser guns v.0.0.01
Enhanced funnel smoke
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 by the beast
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 patch 1
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 patch 1 hotfix
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 AFFOE_151
Gap Armaments & equipment patch
Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.1
Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2
Free upgrades patch 1
Gross Deutscher Rundfunk
IRAI 0 07 by TDW
Mighty fine crew mod stock faces
New Ui's TDC 7_1_0
Real environment revision 3
Realistic ammo amount for AA and deck guns
Remove logo and intro
Seawolf torpedo tweak
SH5 lifeboats
Smaller warship flags
Sobers green spinning thing
Stoianm pitch and roll normal
Sub exaust
U-boat Snorkel with exhaust smoke
silentmichals interior mod 1.2.1
WoGaDi mod beta six
Reboots hot soup mod
Corrected Depth charge thrower.

gap

01-31-13, 02:20 PM

I didn't manually add them, when I tested the 105mm Deck gun once, they were just there, Ill give you my mod list, to see if that helps.

Might be Realistic ammo amount for AA and deck guns then :hmmm:

P.S: I have a few remarks on your mod list:

Open Horizons II Full V2
Accurate German flags
Cerburus62 Historical Ship equipment
Auxiliary Cruiser guns v.0.0.01 => probably no necessary, since you are already using Cerburus62 Historical Ship equipment
Enhanced funnel smoke
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 by the beast
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 patch 1
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 patch 1 hotfix
Equipment upgrades fix 1_4 AFFOE_151 => remove it. It isn't needed, as you don't have A Fistful of Emblems
Gap Armaments & equipment patch => remove it (already included in Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2)
Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.1 => remove it (already included in Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2)
Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2
Free upgrades patch 1 => there are chances that this mod is not compatible with Equipment upgrades fix
Gross Deutscher Rundfunk
IRAI 0 07 by TDW
Mighty fine crew mod stock faces
New Ui's TDC 7_1_0
Real environment revision 3
Realistic ammo amount for AA and deck guns
Remove logo and intro
Seawolf torpedo tweak
SH5 lifeboats
Smaller warship flags
Sobers green spinning thing
Stoianm pitch and roll normal
Sub exaust
U-boat Snorkel with exhaust smoke
silentmichals interior mod 1.2.1
WoGaDi mod beta six => there are chances that this mod is not compatible with silentmichals interior mod 1.2.1
Reboots hot soup mod => there are chances that this mod is not compatible with silentmichals interior mod 1.2.1
Corrected Depth charge thrower.

volodya61

01-31-13, 03:02 PM

Might be Realistic ammo amount for AA and deck guns then :hmmm:

EUF contain shells.zon (SS type for 105mm) and 105mm.sim.. Realistic ammo amount is too old.. it isn't contain 105mm.sim..

EDIT:
@V13dweller
Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2 isn't working in your list.. IRAI overwrites it..

V13dweller

01-31-13, 11:23 PM

I use the Auxiliary cruiser mod because Cerberus's mod only give the Pinguin one gun on the Stern because he thinks int's ugly when the barrels clip through the side, but I don't mind, but that ships needs its four guns.

V13dweller

02-01-13, 12:29 AM

Also Gap, have you made a breakthrough relating to the starshells yet? because I encountered the Admiral Hipper in the Baltic during Baltic operations, so I stayed near it, and it found a Merchant, so it fired it's starshells and then it's 105mm guns had to sink it.

V13dweller

02-05-13, 09:20 AM

I have noticed a problem that should be addressed, the Dido Class light cruiser's turrets seem to rotate and clip through the ship and fire through the super structure, also all the guns on the Scharnhorst Battle cruiser also fire through the ship.
Could this be addressed?

V13dweller

02-05-13, 09:27 AM

Also, the triple turrets on the Scharnhorst and the Deutschland class battlecruisers only fire two rounds per salvo, so one of the barrels is inactive.

gap

02-06-13, 05:33 AM

EUF contain shells.zon (SS type for 105mm) and 105mm.sim.. Realistic ammo amount is too old.. it isn't contain 105mm.sim..

Yes you are right, nonetheless I had a look into EUF, and the 105 mm deckgun isn't assigned starshells in its sim file; or, more exactly, it is assigned 88 mm caliber starshells, but their loadout is set to 0. :hmmm:

EDIT:
@V13dweller
Gap Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2 isn't working in your list.. IRAI overwrites it..

I don't think so: nothing in IRAI overwrites Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2 :yep:

I use the Auxiliary cruiser mod because Cerberus's mod only give the Pinguin one gun on the Stern because he thinks int's ugly when the barrels clip through the side, but I don't mind, but that ships needs its four guns.

Okay :up:

Talking about it, I have found some nice charts showing the gun positioning of all the auxiliary cruisers ;)

Also Gap, have you made a breakthrough relating to the starshells yet? because I encountered the Admiral Hipper in the Baltic during Baltic operations, so I stayed near it, and it found a Merchant, so it fired it's starshells and then it's 105mm guns had to sink it.

no, not yet.

I have noticed a problem that should be addressed, the Dido Class light cruiser's turrets seem to rotate and clip through the ship and fire through the super structure, also all the guns on the Scharnhorst Battle cruiser also fire through the ship.
Could this be addressed?

Might have to do with the restr_dist parameter (obj_Turret => Debug). In general its numeric value increases with the caliber of the gun, but for some guns it is unusually small... just guessing.

If adjusting those settings doesn't work, we can always restrict guns' min/max train angle to historical values. Currently they are set to 0-360 deg, no matter the gun :yep:

Also, the triple turrets on the Scharnhorst and the Deutschland class battlecruisers only fire two rounds per salvo, so one of the barrels is inactive.

This problem could be easy to fix. I think those guns are actually firing 3 shells, but 2 of them have the same x/y/z coordinates (Muzzle => entry => position).

I suspect that those coordinates are representing two factors:

- gun axes distances
- shell dispersion

If two muzzles have exactly the same coordinates, we won't be able to discern their shells: they will be spawned one inside the other, and they will follow exactly the same trajectory :know:

volodya61

02-06-13, 06:16 AM

I don't think so: nothing in IRAI overwrites Armaments & equipment patch v 0.2 :yep:

:o

http://s19.postimage.org/lbri8s0sj/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

http://s19.postimage.org/fov5bay9v/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

PS: Unfortunately I dropped out of the testing program :) and of further work now. I lost the section of my RAM, and for me it's difficult to recover my computer's operability now..

gap

02-06-13, 07:04 AM

:o

http://s19.postimage.org/lbri8s0sj/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

http://s19.postimage.org/fov5bay9v/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

You are obviously correct, my bad. :oops:
I wonder what gun/setting is changed in IRAI. Anyway my changes are based on TDW files, so it can be installed on top of IRAI without problems.

PS: Unfortunately I dropped out of the testing program :) and of further work now. I lost the section of my RAM, and for me it's difficult to recover my computer's operability now..

too many testing hours :-?

I am sorry Volodya, I hope you will get your RAM fixed soon :)

V13dweller

02-08-13, 07:39 AM

Since Volodya dropped out of testing for the time being, is there any testing that I could help with?
I am perfectly happy to lend my powerful computer to testing for the good of the modding community.:D

gap

02-08-13, 09:02 AM

vlad29

02-09-13, 12:53 PM

Hi Gap! Just for the info: after applying 'More acurate AA-gunners" by TDW my AA gunner (not overhauled yet) with a primitive single AA-gun have managed to damage one of a pair of Hurry (then I helped him to finish the plane). That was the first air attack on boat, and AA-gunner did his job fine:up: So either the mod is working, or my man is just a lucky guy:smug:

volodya61

02-09-13, 01:10 PM

Vlad, you are cheater! :haha:

gap

02-09-13, 01:41 PM

vlad29

02-09-13, 02:00 PM

Is there a 'More accurate AA-gunners" mod by TDW? :huh:

Where?

See post 311 in this thread.

gap

02-09-13, 02:15 PM

See post 311 in this thread.

Silly me, I thought you were talking about an "official" mod :88)

Unfortunately, Volodya has discovered that TDW's fix screws up gunner animations: :yep:

http://s19.postimage.org/sdy4fjpqb/SH5_Img_2013_01_21_2.jpg

This is not a big problem anyway, since wamphyri's method that I and Volody have been testing in the past weeks is as effective as the one suggested by TDW, and without side effects :up:

volodya61

02-09-13, 02:27 PM

I continue to work on this now, as far as the limited capacity of my PC can :yep:

And I think that TDW's method is good but not realistic.. the gunners are too accurate..

vlad29

02-09-13, 02:37 PM

Unfortunately, Volodya has discovered that TDW's fix screws up gunner animations: :yep:
This is not a big problem anyway, since wamphyri's method that I and Volody have been testing in the past weeks is as effective as the one suggested by TDW, and without side effects :up:

Oops, haven't noticed it before:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!! I've beeing watching where this guy have beeing shooting but not at his bloody hands:arrgh!:

vlad29

02-09-13, 02:40 PM

I continue to work on this now, as far as the limited capacity of my PC can :yep:

And I think that TDW's method is good but not realistic.. the gunners are too accurate..

:agree: I'm not the cheater yet - just studying with You, guys:D, so lets give this fix out untill better times

gap

02-10-13, 05:14 AM

:agree: I'm not the cheater yet - just studying with You, guys:D, so lets give this fix out untill better times

Thank you for your support, Vlad :up:

I have just realized that after all this long talking, we haven't released an AA guns fix yet :oops:

Give me time to finish packing the nex DynEnv release (only small updates), and I and Volodya will try putting together the results of our testings in an overall U-boat flak gun patch. I hope it won't be the classical case of an elephant giving birth to a mouse :O:

volodya61

02-10-13, 06:02 AM

I hope it won't be the classical case of an elephant giving birth to a mouse :O:

:D :up:

In Russian it sounds a bit differently - a mountain giving birth to a mouse :)

Okay..
I was thinking about AA-guns ranges in the CrewAI.cfg.. and decided slightly change them..

somehow like this

AA guns range 1=500 → 400
AA guns range 2=1000 → 800
AA guns range 3=1500 → 1200

or like this

AA guns range 1=500 → 350
AA guns range 2=1000 → 700
AA guns range 3=1500 → 1050

What you think?

gap

02-10-13, 06:56 AM

:D :up:

In Russian it sounds a bit differently - a mountain giving birth to a mouse :)

In Italy the two forms are possible :)

Okay..
I was thinking about AA-guns ranges in the CrewAI.cfg.. and decided slightly change them..

somehow like this

AA guns range 1=500 → 400
AA guns range 2=1000 → 800
AA guns range 3=1500 → 1200

or like this

AA guns range 1=500 → 350
AA guns range 2=1000 → 700
AA guns range 3=1500 → 1050

What you think?

According to the "Cumulative Edition of Admiraltie's Interrogation of U-Boat Survivors (http://www.uboatarchive.net/CumulativeEdition.htm")" German flak guns' operational ranges were as follows:

Max effective Limiting Minimum
range range range
=======================================
20 mm 1,000 m 2,000 m n.a.

37 mm 2,000 m 3,000-3,500 m 25 m

I think the 'Limiting range' refers to the maximum ranges at which gunners would have started firing, with the scope of adjusting the aim on target and as barrage fire.

Also note that nominal maximum AA ranges were 3,700 m for 20 mm guns, 6,800 for 37 mm C/30 and 4,800 for the 37 mm M42.

All in all, I think that your proposed settings are too low ;)

volodya61

02-10-13, 07:55 AM

All in all, I think that your proposed settings are too low ;)

At that moment I was not thinking about historical accuracy and specs of AA armaments..
I was thinking about real gunners accuracy in the game.. if we will set the exact historic values in the game files then we can forget about the gunners accuracy and about the downed planes..

I just suggest to set Max effective range as AA guns range3.. :hmmm:

spydar1959

02-10-13, 08:06 AM

Your limiting range should be at least tripiled. All the weapon catalogs I have looked through show at least a 1200 to 3700 meter range. Most of what they show is the variation of the cannons themselves. The U-boat is using standard long barrels. Some of the spec's you might read are on short barrel aircraft weapons. The 20 and 37 mm weapons were shortened anywhere from 1 to 5 feet to fit the airframe. Ballistics fall off accordingly. The 37 mm they used in the Stuka tankbusters were full barreled. But that was more a drop pod than installed piece. So crank them up and let's shoot at some Tommies. :up:

gap

02-10-13, 11:33 AM

At that moment I was not thinking about historical accuracy and specs of AA armaments..
I was thinking about real gunners accuracy in the game.. if we will set the exact historic values in the game files then we can forget about the gunners accuracy and about the downed planes..

I agree. I am aware that those settings have to be a compromise between historical likelihod, game limits, playability, etc, and I am very open to any balanced solution. Nonetheless, it is my opinion that we should start from the 'limiting ranges' reported in the Admiralty table, and eventually reduce them, if we notice that they give AI gunners too much advantage over incoming aircraft or even compared with human performance.

Personally I would be satisfied if our gunners were able to damage a plane at long range once in while. Not too often, but just enough to make the 'fire at long range' order a viable strategy rather than a mere waste of bullets or, worse, a guarantee against any air attack.

Don't forget that by now we have ways to increase/decrease guns accuracy at wish, and that the longer the firing range, the more critic accuracy settings will result. If that wasn't enough, we can increase planes hit points, as suggested by TDW , or decrease bullet damage.

Last but not least: we are increasing AA ammo loadouts according to historical records. It means that we shouldn't worry any longer about running out of bullets, but focus instead on any tactic that will increase boat's safety :yep:

I just suggest to set Max effective range as AA guns range3.. :hmmm:

Max effective range 20 mm: 1,000 m
Max effective range 30 mm: 2,000 m

average = 1,500 m = stock setting :03:

Your limiting range should be at least tripiled. All the weapon catalogs I have looked through show at least a 1200 to 3700 meter range. Most of what they show is the variation of the cannons themselves. The U-boat is using standard long barrels. Some of the spec's you might read are on short barrel aircraft weapons. The 20 and 37 mm weapons were shortened anywhere from 1 to 5 feet to fit the airframe. Ballistics fall off accordingly. The 37 mm they used in the Stuka tankbusters were full barreled. But that was more a drop pod than installed piece.

The ranges I have reported are strictly relative to the flak guns mounted aboard German U-boats and, as I understand them, they are the best estimations that the British Admiralty had available as of June 1944. I cannot think of a better source than this, unless someone can provide official figures from original Kriegsmarine documents.

So crank them up and let's shoot at some Tommies. :up:

:arrgh!:

I just hope you don't want to win the war with a single flak :O:

volodya61

02-10-13, 12:14 PM

Last but not least: we are increasing AA ammo loadouts according to historical records. It means that we shouldn't worry any longer about running out of bullets, but focus instead on any tactic that will increase boat's safety :yep:

Unfortunately we can set only the total number of bullets for each type of guns.. regardless of their number on board.. I mean, if we set 1000 bullets to type C/38 then we will have only 1000 bullets for C/38, regardless one or two or three C/38 we have..

Max effective range 20 mm: 1,000 m
Max effective range 30 mm: 2,000 m

average = 1,500 m = stock setting :03:

Here we see the same picture.. we can't set different values for 20mm guns and for 37mm guns..

I just hope you don't want to win the war with a single flak :O:

but I do :yep:

:O:

gap

02-10-13, 12:50 PM

Unfortunately we can set only the total number of bullets for each type of guns.. regardless of their number on board.. I mean, if we set 1000 bullets to type C/38 then we will have only 1000 bullets for C/38, regardless one or two or three C/38 we have..

Let's keep this little secret for us ;)

Here we see the same picture.. we can't set different values for 20mm guns and for 37mm guns..

After serious consideration ;) :O: my proposed settings are:

AA guns range 1=500*
AA guns range 2=1250**
AA guns range 3=2000***

* going below this range wouldn't make much sense imo: even in game (using realistic train/elevation rates) aircraft relative speed would be so high that the gunner wouldn't be able to aim at it.

** intermediate between range 1 and range 3, a bit over 20mm gun's maximum range, but this would be okay considering that AA gunners need to fire in advance in order to lead their targets

*** equal to 37mm flak's maximum range and 20mm flak's barrage fire range

Sailor Steve

02-10-13, 12:58 PM

Your limiting range should be at least tripiled. All the weapon catalogs I have looked through show at least a 1200 to 3700 meter range.
This is very much in line with the old arguments we had about the deck gun rate of fire. There is a huge difference between the listed range in your catalog and how far you can actually hit anything with the weapon. Hitting an airplane with a hand-aimed weapon is never easy. It's even hard to hit a stationary target with an automatic weapon, even when it's mounted solidly to a pintel. One thousand meters is a very long range with this kind of thing.

gap

02-10-13, 01:27 PM

This is very much in line with the old arguments we had about the deck gun rate of fire. There is a huge difference between the listed range in your catalog and how far you can actually hit anything with the weapon. Hitting an airplane with a hand-aimed weapon is never easy. It's even hard to hit a stationary target with an automatic weapon, even when it's mounted solidly to a pintel. One thousand meters is a very long range with this kind of thing.

Thank you for taking part in this discussion, Steve :salute:

I agree with you that figures available on the web, or even on books, are generally exagerated, being relative to nominal specs, or at best to gunnery trials under ideal conditions.

Nonetheless, I invite you to have a look at the document I mentioned a few posts below (look for "Performance and Ammunition"). 2,000 m is reported as maximum effective range for 37mm flaks, and as barrage fire range for 20mm flaks. Also note that the above figures are far below nominal AA ranges for the same guns, as reported in other sources.

Even more interesting, the same source reports the approximate number of shells fired during one plane run up, which can be used for cross checking the accuracy of our range/rof settings.

Since the above data were collected from captured U-boat crews, I doubt that they were relative to nominal ranges: imo they have to be operational ranges. :hmm2:

...and by the way, I don't expect a 20 mm gun to shoot a plane down at a range of 2,000 m, but rather to have a better probability to hit it at closer range, as it is approaching ;)

vlad29

02-10-13, 03:20 PM

Thank you for taking part in this discussion, Steve :salute:

I agree with you that figures available on the web, or even on books, are generally exagerated, being relative to nominal specs, or at best to gunnery trials under ideal conditions.

Nonetheless, I invite you to have a look at the document I mentioned a few posts below (look for "Performance and Ammunition"). 2,000 m is reported as maximum effective range for 37mm flaks, and as barrage fire range for 20mm flaks. Also note that the above figures are far below nominal AA ranges for the same guns, as reported in other sources.

Even more interesting, the same source reports the approximate number of shells fired during one plane run up, which can be used for cross checking the accuracy of our range/rof settings.

Since the above data were collected from captured U-boat crews, I doubt that they were relative to nominal ranges: imo they have to be operational ranges. :hmm2:

...and by the way, I don't expect a 20 mm gun to shoot a plane down at a range of 2,000 m, but rather to have a better probability to hit it at closer range, as it is approaching ;)
Historically prooved that 'air victorys' of U-boats were very rare. Only 2 of them were equiped with huge "batteries' of flak-guns (the so called 'plane catchers'), when the activity of british aviation in Biskay became really a disaster for subs, but this experience was uneffective.
So if we make AA-gunners wery accurate, that is not realistyc I think.
As for the range 2000m - "effective" is att. to shell capacity I think, but not to the accuracy of gunners:yep:.

gap

02-10-13, 05:10 PM

So if we make AA-gunners wery accurate, that is not realistyc I think.
As for the range 2000m - "effective" is att. to shell capacity I think, but not to the accuracy of gunners:yep:.

:hmmm:

I can be wrong, but talking about the "maximum range" of an AA gun against an unarmored target, like an aircraft, the term can only have 3 meanings. In descending order, they are:

the balistic range: the ideal distance the shell can travel, given its angle, drag, and starting momentum.

the self destruct range: the distance the shell can travel before exploding or self destructing.

the effective range: the range at which the gun can be aimed having even a remote chance to hit the target. This is obvously an uncertain figure, nonetheless, many sources agree that:

Effective range during World War II against aircraft for manually aimed weapons rarely exceeded 1,000 yards (910 m)

(source: navweaps.com (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_2cm-70_mk234.htm))

It is also interesting what the same source states about the 20mm Oerlikon gun in service with USN:

USN Oerlikon gunners were expected to open fire at 1,200 or 1,300 yards (1,100 or 1,200 m) which allowed aiming corrections by the point the target entered effective range.

So, it should be clear that the effective range was applied in excess.

Talking about German 20 mm flaks, we have:

maximum balistic range at 85° (AA ceiling): 3,700 m source (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_20mm-65_c30.htm)

self destruct range: 2,900 m source (http://www.uboatarchive.net/CumulativeEdition.htm)

maximum effective range: 1,000 m (same source as above)

As far as I can understand, the above figures seem consistent to me.

Moreover the last source reports a 2,000 m range, as barrage fire distance of the 20mm flaks and maximum effective range of the 37mm flaks. I agree that this last figure seems a bit excessive, and partly contradicts the first quote in this post. On the other hand, it is reported by a reliable source (the Admiralty Recors) together with other consistent information and, as I think I have demonstrated above, the meaning of "maximum effective range" can't be equivocated...

...my two cents :O: :D

vlad29

02-11-13, 02:31 PM

Good material Gap!
What about aiming range, and killing range?
F.e., lets have a look at Makarov pistol characteristics (from WiKi):
Aiming range - 50 m
Maximum range - 50 m (effective), 350 m (killing)
So we can conclude, that effective range is a certain figure, and effective range usually equal to aiming range.

Put the third cent:03:

THE_MASK

02-11-13, 02:42 PM

volodya61

02-11-13, 06:36 PM

Gap, I finally figured out why you thought that your gunners broken :03:

That's my way for tests:

1. Man the Flak gun
2. F7 or Battle Stations (on the order's bar)
3. Flak gun bar

http://s19.postimage.org/498hicsg3/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

http://s19.postimage.org/itpkd6ner/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

If you didn't order the first point, then you get only virtual gunners..
That's why you've never seen their animation and that's why they don't leave their posts in high wind.. just because they do not exist :haha:

volodya61

02-11-13, 08:54 PM

And seems that CrewAI.cfg isn't working correctly also..
just tested it with different ranges and the results were the same in all tests for all ranges.. :hmmm:

EDIT: not pretty sure already.. need more tests.. much more tests.. :03:

volodya61

02-11-13, 10:13 PM

V13dweller

02-12-13, 12:21 AM

Would it be possible to get a single Flak with shield on your U-boat?
I prefer the single Flak because I don't like to throw so many rounds down range but still offer protection, also for the aesthetic effect.

volodya61

02-12-13, 01:55 AM

http://s19.postimage.org/5kku4kdfn/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

To be honest, I don't see any aesthetic in this Flak..
Uncomfortable for aiming also..

V13dweller

02-12-13, 06:03 AM

Under my opinion, there is a nice aesthetic effect to the obscure view of the Shielded Flak gun.
And what about having MG-34's as a Flak gun?
That would give a Late War feel to it.
And there are two MG-34's in the conning tower next the Stahlhelm's.

gap

02-12-13, 08:02 AM

...So we can conclude, that effective range is a certain figure, and effective range usually equal to aiming range.

yes, I am... 50% sure about it.:O:

I hope that some native english speaker with a military beckground can confirm it :up:

And seems that CrewAI.cfg isn't working correctly also..
just tested it with different ranges and the results were the same in all tests for all ranges.. :hmmm:

EDIT: not pretty sure already.. need more tests.. much more tests.. :03:

:huh:

Do you mean that range settings aren't applied in game, or rather that they don't make any difference on how effective are the Flaks? :hmm2:

gap

02-12-13, 08:28 AM

If you want to get rid of the yellow tracers then use goblin .
Right click on the goblin exe and click on properties and disable visual themes .
Open Library/Shells Dat then merge Shells Sim file .
Click on amun_Shell@105mm and change the trace to something else like 30mm_HE_Shell then change it to NONE .
(if i dont click on another trace value first i cannot get the NONE to stick , you will see what i mean)
Save the Shells.Sim
Do the rest of the guns .

Thank you for the information, sober, I had already noticed that you have got rid of shell tracers in the last version of your bad weather deck gun. :)

But why removing them at all? They are a cool and useful feature after all, and what matters most, tracers were widely used during WWII. With s3d we can modify or even add new, more realistic tracer effects at wish.

What do you think? :hmm2:

gap

02-12-13, 08:35 AM

Gap, I finally figured out why you thought that your gunners broken :03:

That's my way for tests:

1. Man the Flak gun
2. F7 or Battle Stations (on the order's bar)
3. Flak gun bar

If you didn't order the first point, then you get only virtual gunners..
That's why you've never seen their animation and that's why they don't leave their posts in high wind.. just because they do not exist :haha:

Silly me! :doh: :haha:

to be precise, AA gunners only showed when I locked on an aircraft with the spacebar, but I had never manned the flak gun the way you are suggesting.

I any case, seems I have found by accident a loophole in New UI's that would allow us to use flak guns during bad weather. I think we should report it to TDW :hmmm:

volodya61

02-12-13, 08:35 AM

Do you mean that range settings aren't applied in game, or rather that they don't make any difference on how effective are the Flaks? :hmm2:

I can't figure this yet.. :hmmm:

gap

02-12-13, 08:40 AM

Gap, another thought, about your testing M42 Zwilling..
Recall the conditions under which your avatar was frozen.. because I've noticed the same thing when testing C30_2..
Battle Stations were activated and gunner had firing at the target, then when I tried to firing myself, my avatar was frozen also.. not always but couple of times this happen..

nice finding Volodya. :up:

By any chance, do you remember if the background sound changed as well? And was your screen full of streaking water drops?

gap

02-12-13, 08:42 AM

I can't figure this yet.. :hmmm:

try setting very long or very short ranges. Sometimes extreme settings help discovering things that you wouldn't by adopting a prudent approach :03: :D

volodya61

02-12-13, 08:44 AM

..to be precise, AA gunners only showed when I locked on an aircraft with the spacebar, but I had never manned the flak gun the way you are suggesting.

That's why I couldn't understand why you are using binoculars where it is not needed.. :haha:

..I think we should report it to TDW :hmmm:

Yep.. we should.. :yep:

volodya61

02-12-13, 08:51 AM

By any chance, do you remember if the background sound changed as well? And was your screen full of streaking water drops?

No and no.. but I'm not sure about second "no" because I have Render patches patch enabled..

try setting very long or very short ranges. Sometimes extreme settings help discovering things that you wouldn't by adopting a prudent approach :03: :D

Okay.. I will try it today.. :yep:

gap

02-12-13, 08:55 AM

Would it be possible to get a single Flak with shield on your U-boat?

And what about having MG-34's as a Flak gun?
That would give a Late War feel to it.
And there are two MG-34's in the conning tower next the Stahlhelm's.

Both ideas are theoretically feasible, but we should find/create good 3d models to be inported in the GR2 of one of the existing guns. I really have no ideas if it would work: I still find it difficult making a native GR2 (the double M42) to work in game.

To be honest, I don't see any aesthetic in this Flak..
Uncomfortable for aiming also..

I agree, as it is now, this gun is absolutely useless, but what if we gave the unshielded twin 20mm gun the specs of a C/30 (currently, they are both set as if the were C/38), and we made the shielded version more resistent to enemy bullets? ;)

gap

02-12-13, 09:08 AM

That's why I couldn't understand why you are using binoculars where it is not needed.. :haha:

well, I used the binoculars only if I wanted the gunner to show. Otherwise, ordering 'battlestations' and 'fire at wish' was just enough for making my cybernetic gun to fire at any target in range. :yep:

After a second thought, I am not sure that I want this oustanding feature removed from New UI's :O:

No and no.. but I'm not sure about second "no" because I have Render patches patch enabled..

About the sound change, I have experienced it in bunker. The new sound was similar (or dentical) to the one played in open sea. Maybe this is why you couldn't notice it.

As for waterdrops, I think I have missed these Render patches that you are talkin about. What do they are supposed to do :06:

Another mod which would prevent water drops from sgowing is sobers no water drops... ;)

volodya61

02-12-13, 09:30 AM

Okay.. I will try it today.. :yep:

I want to thank Trevally again for the awesome tool which he presented us to test..
Thank you John! :salute:

..but what if we gave the unshielded twin 20mm gun the specs of a C/30 ... and we made the shielded version more resistent to enemy bullets? ;)

I do not think that's necessary at the moment.. details can come later.. Rongel will be enough to make a couple of corrections to his Longer Repairs mod..

After a second thought, I am not sure that I want this oustanding feature removed from New UI's :O:

Virtual gunners? Seems like a cheat.. :D :O:

As for waterdrops, I think I have missed these Render patches that you are talkin about. What do they are supposed to do :06:
Another mod which would prevent water drops from sgowing is sobers no water drops... ;)

I've used Sober's mod before.. this mod just removed drops from the textures.. not from game's engine.. and PC's resources are still required..

gap

02-12-13, 10:14 AM

I want to thank Trevally again for the awesome tool which he presented us to test..
Thank you John! :salute:

I join you in offering our Cpt. Trevally my most sincere sentiments of profound esteem and eternal gratitude. :D

... out of jokes, thank you John :up:

I do not think that's necessary at the moment.. details can come later.. Rongel will be enough to make a couple of corrections to his Longer Repairs mod..

Why not? do you call it a detail?

Basically, atm we have in game two twin C/38, one of which is essentially useless. Downgrading the lighter one to C/30 specs, and making the player to pay the extra rate of fire and armor protection of the shielded flak with reduced gun manageability and extra sub drag (;)), makes much more sense to me.

Similarly, I want to promote the "improved" C/30 (the one with the gunsight) to C/38 specs... but without extra armor and extra weight this time. Just extra renown required to get it :know:

Virtual gunners? Seems like a cheat.. :D :O:

it is :D

I've used Sober's mod before.. this mod just removed drops from the textures.. not from game's engine.. and PC's resources are still required..

I undesrtand now :up:
Can you please remove that patch then, and see if you can replicate the frozen avatar issue :)

volodya61

02-12-13, 11:32 AM

Similarly, I want to promote the "improved" C/30 (the one with the gunsight) to C/38 specs... but without extra armor and extra weight this time. Just extra renown required to get it :know:

BTW, you know, the C30_2 ("improved") is the best in aiming accuracy so far :yep:

it is :D

:o you are cheater.. :har:

Can you please remove that patch then, and see if you can replicate the frozen avatar issue :)

Okay, I will try to repeat/reproduce this effect.. :yep:

PS: IRAI, R.E.M, reworked sub guns.. too many tests for one tired man.. :O: :03:

gap

02-12-13, 12:34 PM

BTW, you know, the C30_2 ("improved") is the best in aiming accuracy so far :yep:

with custom or tweaked anim index settings?

Maybe its gunsight is the secret ingredient :03:

:o you are cheater.. :har:

I was, unaware :-?

Okay, I will try to repeat/reproduce this effect.. :yep:

PS: IRAI, R.E.M, reworked sub guns.. too many tests for one tired man.. :O: :03:

too much for a tired man, but still not enough for someone detaining the title of Best of Subsim 2012 for being a friendly, productive part of the Subsim community and for contributing to the good side of the Internet :yep: :D

Trevally.

02-12-13, 12:39 PM

volodya61

02-12-13, 01:07 PM

with custom or tweaked anim index settings?

tweaked of course.. but here I had enough change only one value for a good result..

too much for a tired man, but still not enough for someone detaining the title of Best of Subsim 2012 for being a friendly, productive part of the Subsim community and for contributing to the good side of the Internet :yep: :D

:wah:

gap

02-12-13, 01:13 PM

tweaked of course.. but here I had enough change only one value for a good result..

I hope you are using Wamphyri's settings as reference :03:

volodya61

02-12-13, 01:21 PM

I hope you are using Wamphyri's settings as reference :03:

not exactly.. and not always.. there are symply ways..

EDIT: but definitely his method showed the right way to solve the problem :up:

gap

02-12-13, 01:27 PM

not exactly.. and not always.. there are symply ways..

EDIT: but definitely his method showed the right way to solve the problem :up:

WHICH ways exactly, if I can ask? :huh:

You look a bit secretive... :03: :D

volodya61

02-12-13, 01:38 PM

WHICH ways exactly, if I can ask? :huh:

You look a bit secretive... :03: :D

change and tune only one value.. and one more to fine tune.. and trav&elev angles to the best fine tune..

what secret did you see here? :haha: :O:

gap

02-12-13, 01:47 PM

change and tune only one value.. and one more to fine tune.. and trav&elev angles to the best fine tune..

what secret did you see here? :haha: :O:

yes, but it takes a lot of time finding the "right values". In my opinion, using Wamphyri's settings as base for your adjustements would make things a lot faster :hmm2:

volodya61

02-12-13, 01:55 PM

yes, but it takes a lot of time finding the "right values". In my opinion, using Wamphyri's settings as base for your adjustements would make things a lot faster :hmm2:

We are not looking for the easier ways © .. and faster too :D

gap

02-12-13, 02:17 PM

We are not looking for the easier ways © .. and faster too :D

I see you like the hard ways :03:

Hope to join you soon, as I finish with DynEnv :salute:

volodya61

02-12-13, 02:33 PM

I see you like the hard ways :03:

Not me..
Unfortunately it is way of my country :nope: :)

Rongel

02-12-13, 02:51 PM

A quick status update!

Made some tweaks to torpedo malfunction values, and added couple historic radio messages concerning them. I'll try to post a new version next weekend, and maybe even add some statistic about them like Gap asked! It might be wiser to list torpedo malfunction percentages that I'm aiming for, and then people can comment if they seem accurate or not. It's not telling much if I write down that chance for angle deviation is 70 % in the sim file, but when you play the game, it only happens about 1/20 or so...

Stay tuned! :D

gap

02-12-13, 04:23 PM

Made some tweaks to torpedo malfunction values, and added couple historic radio messages concerning them. I'll try to post a new version next weekend, and maybe even add some statistic about them like Gap asked!

Thank you Rongel, we are eagerly waiting for your updates :yeah:

It might be wiser to list torpedo malfunction percentages that I'm aiming for, and then people can comment if they seem accurate or not. It's not telling much if I write down that chance for angle deviation is 70 % in the sim file, but when you play the game, it only happens about 1/20 or so...

yep, hopefully your statistics will help testers to understand if the new settings are applied as expected :03:

THE_MASK

02-13-13, 08:29 PM

I noticed this folder here so i assume you would have to start a new career for modding to apply ?
MyDocuments\SH5\data\cfg\UserPlayerContextGE\Weapo ns

gap

02-13-13, 09:28 PM

I noticed this folder here so i assume you would have to start a new career for modding to apply ?
MyDocuments\SH5\data\cfg\UserPlayerContextGE\Weapo ns

No idea sober, I will investigate. Thank you for reporting :salute:

7thSeal

02-13-13, 09:35 PM

You could probably just delete that one there after enabling the mod and it may load the new one after starting a save. Worse case it would just reload the old one if you tried it..... maybe that's the worse case. :D

Rongel

02-17-13, 01:44 PM

Here is a new test version of the Torpedo Malfunctions-mod.

http://www.mediafire.com/?33dbm70scamom2g

And now with real documentation!

.................................................. .............

SH 5 Torpedo Malfunctions by Rongel (test2)

This mod adds torpedo malfunctions to the game. The aim is to follow historic values and to recreate the "Torpedo Crisis" that plagued Germany in the opening years of the war. Values are based on the thesis "WOLVES WITHOUT TEETH: THE GERMAN TORPEDO CRISIS IN WORLD WAR TWO" by David Habersham Wright.

- Torpedo duds. There is approx. 20 % possibility of torpedo duds. G7e TII torpedo is a bit more unreliable. After the Operation Weserubung (spring 1940) dud percentages are lowered when the issue is fixed.
- Depth keeping. In the early years, torpedoes depth may vary several meters. This is gradually fixed during the years.
- Premature detonation. Magnetic detonation torpedoes suffer from premature detonations, windy conditions make them more likely. In good conditions, failure rate is approx. 30-40 percentages. Eventually magnetic detonation is prohibited to use. It is fixed when G7e TIII torpedo is taken to use.
- Gyro deviation. At the start of the war there is a approx. 10 % possibility of a gyro deviation, which is reduced in 1940.
- Circle runners are rare, but it happens.

To make it short, first year of the war is plagued with torpedo malfunctions. In the spring of 1940 most of the issues are fixed, but magnetic detonation problems remain, and they are banned to use. When G7e TIII is introduced in 1942, Germany finally has a torpedo that works in all aspects. Some malfunctions still happen, but they are not common.

This mod also adds some historic radio messages that concern torpedo malfunctions. Magnetic detonation depth is 4 four meters with every torpedo.

Mod will be updated when more testing is done. All comments are welcome!

Install with JSGME, apply when in port. Good luck! :up:

gap

02-17-13, 02:02 PM

Thank you Rongel :yeah:

post #1 updated with the link to the new version.

Now we need for your help guys. Any volunteer ready to test it? :)

THE_MASK

02-17-13, 06:21 PM

Smokin guns
http://i49.tinypic.com/10fxms3.jpg

gap

02-17-13, 06:40 PM

Smokin guns
http://i49.tinypic.com/10fxms3.jpg

yes, cool idea. Unfortunately starshells, which I planned to convert into smokeshells, are bugged: once a a gun fires them, it becomes unable to track enemies :wah:

GT182

02-18-13, 11:15 AM

Rongel, does this fix the magnetic pistol not working? I know that TDW has a fix with his Uis but I'm not running any of his mods.

gap

02-18-13, 11:22 AM

Rongel, does this fix the magnetic pistol not working? I know that TDW has a fix with his Uis but I'm not running any of his mods.

While we are waiting for a definitive answer by Rongel, I will give you my opinion:

I think that Rongel's tweaks are based on TDW's torpedo patch, and that the patch must be enabled for them to work.

Before this patch, torpedo failure rates weren't applied to GR2 units, and magnetic pistols weren't triggered. No "normal" mod can fix the above issues, as they are hardcoded features :yep:

Rongel

02-18-13, 12:04 PM

Yep, Gap is right again. I forgot to mention that this mod is made TDW's Patcher in mind.

So you need to enable torpedo duds and magnetic detonation from the patcher. This mod puts the malfunction percentages right and fixes not-hard-coded (soft-coded? :D) stuff.

gap

02-18-13, 12:13 PM

(soft-coded? :D)

:huh: :06:

yet another subsimologism :D

Trevally.

02-18-13, 12:59 PM

:huh: :06:

yet another subsimologism :D

:har::haha::up:

V13dweller

02-19-13, 08:59 PM

gap

02-20-13, 05:39 AM

I managed to give my U-boat starshells as ammunition, by changing the AA shell to the starshell effect, but then all AA round fired from all ships became starshells, and I think you might be able to tell, that caused massive lags.
When you give you 8.8cm deck gun starshells it doesn't show up as a selectable ammo type, so I had to change the AA round.
And is it possible to change the ammo type, that each gun fires?
At the moment, I do not know how to do that.

I don't understand why you are so fond of arming your guns with starshells: I doubt that they were ever used as ordnance aboard Uboats. :03: :)

Anyway... if I understood your question, the answer is yes, you can assign any type of shell to any gun:

open the GR2 of the gun you want to edit, be one of the U-boat guns (data/Objects/Guns/*.GR2) or ship guns: (data/Library/ShipParts/guns_radars_01.GR2);
merge its sim file;
merge Shells.dat (data/Library);
merge Shells.sim;
at this point you can double click on the wpn_Cannon controller of the gun you want to edit;
expand the ammo_storage group;
expand any of its sub-groups (AP, HE, AA, SS) for changing type and amount of shell used.

The one starshell set in stock game is the 88mm_S_shell. You can assign any type of shell, unrespective of gun's caliber or designation (AP, HE, etc.) to any gun/ammo_storage subgroup. For instance, you could set 20mm_AA_shell as AP ammunition fired by the 88mm gun, but obvously the AI crew would keep using AA rounds as if they were AP shells. And the damage would be the one done by an AA shell, ideed. ;)

You can also create new shell definitions, and assign them to the existing guns, but I think this goes beyond your question, and it would take a lot longer that one would expect from a quick tweak.

Notice also that for human playable guns things are a bit more complex than for AI guns, because when manning a gun manually you need to select the desired type of ammunition, and not all the types are available for each gun. I think that you could add the missing types by messing with UPCDataGE/UPCUnitsData/Ammunition.upc, but for the moment I suggest you to assign the starshells to one of the ordnance types (ammo_storage subgroups) yet available.