AI working acoustic torpedo ("fido")? Take a look!

[Rubini]

Hy guys,

Last days with few sleep ... the Ai torpedos matter is really very interesting!::arrgh!:

I finished the Air Torpedos, tested it on campaigns, save&reload campaign games, all working ok and with random Air torpedo bombers covering all the war time following the allied air coverage. It´s ok and ready for release.

But then I found something new. I as able (with some tricks) to have also a "real" working Ai acoustic torpedo (without use of Virtual torpedos)...take a look yourself on the videos below.

In truth they continue with that old limitation to only be spawed going to north...but with some tricks they are working, finding loud propellers in any direction. They are very good in behaviour for my taste. Let me know what you think.

http://youtu.be/OaPoWy0048o surfaced
http://youtu.be/K2WpdXp1Fvc submerged



Ahoy!
Rubini.

PS: correct me if I´m wrong: Fido and others acoustic torpedos were eletric ones and didn´t had visible trail over water? Is this correct?

[sublynx]

Hy guys,

Last days with few sleep ... the Ai torpedos matter is really very interesting!::arrgh!:


Great work Rubini! It looks marvelous (and horrible at the same time - I don't think I'll be sleeping too good myself thinking about 1943 and those damn Fidos hunting my poor boat):yeah::yeah::yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Looks like your onto a winner Rubini http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[reaper7]

OMG, this is fantastic Rubini. First Air torpedoes and now FIDO, the seas have now become a terrifying place to be. :yeah:

[sublynx]

PS: correct me if I´m wrong: Fido and others acoustic torpedos were eletric ones and didn´t had visible trail over water? Is this correct?

As far as I know, they were indeed electric, Falkes, Zaunkönigs and Fidos. There should be no clearly visible trail like the one a G7a torpedo in the game leaves.

(However there is a mod in downloads section that adds some trail to electric torpedoes. I don't know how realistic that is but I would guess that any torpedo would leave some trail behind it that would be visible at least in very calm waters.)

[Rubini]

As far as I know, they were indeed electric, Falkes, Zaunkönigs and Fidos. There should be no clearly visible trail like the one a G7a torpedo in the game leaves.

(However there is a mod in downloads section that adds some trail to electric torpedoes. I don't know how realistic that is but I would guess that any torpedo would leave some trail behind it that would be visible at least in very calm waters.)
Thanks by the input. Let´s wait more opinions about, then I will finish the mod!:up:

[melnibonian]

Another great addition.

I can't wait to try it :up:

[EmeAzul]

Rubini, very nice indeed, but I was just wondering if there is any defensive tactic that would avoid the loss of the U-Boot. i.e deeper submerge, turning off all engines and/or more evasive maneuvers? Thx

EmeAzul

[Rubini]

Rubini, very nice indeed, but I was just wondering if there is any defensive tactic that would avoid the loss of the U-Boot. i.e deeper submerge, turning off all engines and/or more evasive maneuvers? Thx

EmeAzul

Yes all the above works, mainly going very slow or going deep. Also high speed manouvers can help but if you have more than one fish on water will be difficulty to avoid all them.:up:

[Red Heat]

Great work, Rubini... :up:
Sorry my ignorance but i all aways think the acustic torpedos was exclusive used only by the Krigstmarine in the W.W.II.

[sharkbit]

How deep will the torpedoes track you?

My normal procedure with aircraft is to crash dive. I suppose if the aircraft drops close to my position, the fido may hit me pretty close to periscope depth, but I wonder if they will pursue you much below 25 meters or so.

Just wondering.

Looks like a very welcome addition. Thanks for your work. :salute:

:)

[sharkbit]

Great work, Rubini... :up:
Sorry my ignorance but i all aways think the acustic torpedos was exclusive used only by the Krigstmarine in the W.W.II.

The Allies developed the Fido air dropped torpedo later in '43. Some of the accounts I read in Michael Gannon's "Black May" were pretty chilling. He gives a pretty detailed account on their development and use.

Fleet boats in the Pacific used acoustic torpedoes later in the war as well.

:)

[sublynx]

I understood that Stiebler has modded Fido so that the torpedo will follow you regardless of depth if it can hear you. That would mean going slow is the only way to lose it.

[Rubini]

Great work, Rubini... :up:
Sorry my ignorance but i all aways think the acustic torpedos was exclusive used only by the Krigstmarine in the W.W.II.
Allies had the FIDO (an acoustic torpedo) after 1943 and it was used against uboats. :up:


How deep will the torpedoes track you?

My normal procedure with aircraft is to crash dive. I suppose if the aircraft drops close to my position, the fido may hit me pretty close to periscope depth, but I wonder if they will pursue you much below 25 meters or so.
In my tests seems that they will catch you until 12-15m below water. I don´t know if this is historically correct but is what we have in game. The ai torpedos are a compromisse because Sh3 lacks totally the code to control them. Anyhow seems that even in Sh4/Sh5 their stock routines isn´t that good. Remembers me about lifeboats, where the sh3 mod works frequentelly better than the original Sh4 code...:up:

[Rubini]

Ok! Tests finished, success, so, we will also have acoustic torpedos on the Air Torpedo mod.:arrgh!:

The mod idea:
At the beggining of war, until 1943, we will have only aerial direct torpedos. After that, the Avengers will carry aerial or fidos. This will achieve by holding both virtual torpedos and the "real" acoustic ones on the mod.

This means that, when attacked early war, if not get hit by torpedo quickly, (max. one or two minutes after release) no more torpedos left on that attack (simulating only direct aerial "virtual" ones). But late war you can be hit even some minutes after the attack by "real' acoustic torpedos, even if submerged until 15m. No wakes trails on acoustic torpedos...if you want to see then take a look at your back in external or object view.

By Sh3 limitations, you will not see any torpedo just after it enters water. The acoustic ones (FIDO), will be armed several seconds after it enters water and then they becames visible using external camera.:up:

[reaper7]

Excellent, thanks Rubini. :Kaleun_Cheers:

[Borgneface]

S! Rubini,
This is very impressive and also very scarrrrrrrrryyy:wah: No more relaxing on the seven seas!
Great work......Merci

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Oh my lord!

Rubini old friend.... you have killed us all!!! :arrgh!:

Excellent work good man!!!! :up::up::up:

[Troublous_Haze]

These news surely surprised me a lot, since I thought this could never be done on Sh3.What would kill me for sure would be reading about GWX making special dustclean update version for GWX, that would include basicly all known realism based mods which were never known at the time final GWX came out.. :)

[Rubini]

I found some interesting info about Avenger, Mark13 and Fido. Well, in truth isn´t difficulty to find these infos as they comes from Wikipedia and uboat.net:D. See:

From Wiki:

"The Avenger had a large bomb bay, allowing for one Bliss-Leavitt Mark 13 torpedo, a single 2,000 pound (907 kg) bomb, or up to four 500 pound (227 kg) bombs."

If I understood it correctly no external visible payload on the Avenger, even the torpedo are inside the bomb bay.

"Originating in a 1925 design study, the Mark 13 was subject to changing USN requirements through its early years with resulting on-and-off development. Early models***8212;even when dropped low to the water at slow speeds***8212;were prone to running on the surface, or not running at all. By late 1944, the design had been modified to allow reliable drops from as high as 2,400 ft (730 m), at speeds up to 410 knots (760 km/h). The final Mark 13 weighed 2,216 lb (1,005 kg); 600 lb (270 kg) of this was the high explosive Torpex.[4]"

Wiki Fido specs:

"...
Maximum drop altitude: 200 to 300 ft (60 m to 90 m)
Maximum aircraft launch speed: 120 knots (220 km/h)."

My conclusion is that the drop behaviour on the mod is much better than initially expected - 100km/h at more or less 40/50m high & 700m before target - and the avenger must not have any visible torpedo externally. This will make things better as I don´t found a away to put that static under body torpedo go away. We can then just not see it until it´s dropped. What you think about? May it stay there for identification/eye candy purposes ?

The same above refer to the FIDO...i will just, in a future release, make a correct 3d model/texture for it. Or someone here can do it to speed up the mod?

Here from wiki about Swordfish:

"The primary weapon was the aerial torpedo, but the low speed of the biplane and the need for a long straight approach made it difficult to deliver against well-defended targets. Swordfish torpedo doctrine called for an approach at 5,000 ft (1,500 m) followed by a dive to torpedo release altitude of 18 ft (5.5 m).[2] Maximum range of the early Mark XII torpedo was 1,500 yd (1400 m) at 40 knots (74 km/h) and 3,500 yd (3200 m) at 27 knots (50 km/h).[3] The torpedo travelled 200 yd (180 m) forward from release to water impact, and required another 300 yd (270 m) to stabilise at preset depth and arm itself. Ideal release distance was 1,000 yd (900 m) from target if the Swordfish survived to that distance.[2]"

The Swordfish is another history because it was slow and probably dropped the external visible torpedo from low altitudes (but seing the below video it is not that only 5,5m anyway! . Anyhow, for playability, my idea is to mantain it that way, just dropping the velocity to 90km/h. Humm...also the splash must be much major.::o

Here the better video that I found showing Sworfish in action dropping torpedos:
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/swordfish-torpedo-planes

[melnibonian]

Excelent work Rubini :up:

I can't wait to try it :yep:

[Hans Witteman]

Hi mate,

Not sure i want to install this with our evil destroyer ai player will see the death screen often!:k_rofl:
Nice work on this another historic part restore!:Kaleun_Salute:
Best regards Hans

[Rubini]

Thanks guys by the kind of word!

Nice to see you too Kpt Lehmann!:salute:

I just finished the main .dat that control all aspects of the mod...wow it´s a bit complex now. For example, i added the feature to have also deep running acoustic torpedos, they will be released even if you are submerged...and will hunt you more deeply, more or less until 25m ( was 12-15m before).

As we already knows (by the first release) the mod comes with some limitations that are inside SH3 itself. But it works very well, I have not found any problem, CTD, save reload bug, or inconsistence with the mod.

If I have a RL with a bit less time on real work I could release it quickly. Let´s see!:arrgh!:

[TorpX]

PS: correct me if I´m wrong: Fido and others acoustic torpedos were eletric ones and didn´t had visible trail over water? Is this correct?
This is correct. Also, the Fido's, at least, were much smaller, less powerful, and slow. (The reason for this is a powerful motor would make too much noise and prevent the torpedo from "listening".) So, there would be some hope of surviving a hit.


Anyway, really nice work. :salute:

[Captain Nemo]

Also, the Fido's, at least, were much smaller, less powerful, and slow. (The reason for this is a powerful motor would make too much noise and prevent the torpedo from "listening".) So, there would be some hope of surviving a hit.

Their maximum speed was around 12 knots, so in theory a u-boat could out run a Fido on the surface. Unfortunately for the u-boat men they didn't know of Fido's existence, so crash diving was the preferred option. The Allies officially called Fido the Mark 24 Mine to cover up the fact it was an acoustic torpedo.

This sounds like a great addition to the game, well done Rubini:up:.

Nemo

[Jimbuna]

A few links on the 'mine'

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_Mine

http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/fido.htm

http://www.history.navy.mil/museums/keyport/html/history2.htm

[rik007]

Rubini, great one!


What are the odds in bad wheather? Or when the boat is running silent? Or is this torpedo a standard acoustic torpedo cloned from the game and should I ask Ubi?

[Rubini]

Rubini, great one!


What are the odds in bad wheather? Or when the boat is running silent? Or is this torpedo a standard acoustic torpedo cloned from the game and should I ask Ubi?

LOL...Yes, you are right !:)

The acoustic in the mod isn´t a clone but obviously uses the same type of controllers...so it will behaviour like ubi´s one.

It have the same goods and bads (ready here: limitations) like the original ones. I yet didn´t see it at big waves, but this will be not common in game because the torpedo bombers will not find you easily in bad wheather.

The best manouver is crash dive, but stopping or going very slow also help. But is very dangerous stay in their action area anyway...they can be erratic too and then you are dead.

Having some issues with the RND groups...need to fix it as last work before release.:up:

[rik007]

LOL...Yes, you are right !:)

The acoustic in the mod isn´t a clone but obviously uses the same type of controllers...so it will behaviour like ubi´s one.

It have the same goods and bads (ready here: limitations) like the original ones. I yet didn´t see it at big waves, but this will be not common in game because the torpedo bombers will not find you easily in bad wheather.

The best manouver is crash dive, but stopping or going very slow also help. But is very dangerous stay in their action area anyway...they can be erratic too and then you are dead.

Having some issues with the RND groups...need to fix it as last work before release.:up:

Very good! I'm glad that we have a way to survive this new accoustic nightmare. Over reality we have the advantage of the exernal/event cam. But at full realism you will have the sudden death. Outstanding!

Take your time in fixing. We are patient.

[Troublous_Haze]

BTW I hope everyone agree to the fact that torpedo hit to a u-boat in RL was deadly by all means. 100% destruction of the hull that is.

[Captain Nemo]

BTW I hope everyone agree to the fact that torpedo hit to a u-boat in RL was deadly by all means. 100% destruction of the hull that is.

You might like to look at these statistics which show that 100% destruction was not always the case.

From US Navy OEG Study No. 289, 12 August 1946 provides the following data related to Mark 24 effectiveness:

Number of attacks in which Mark 24s were launched - 264
Total number of Mark 24 torpedoes launched - all targets - 340
Number of Mark 24s launched against submarines - 204
Number of Mark 24 attacks on submarines by US aircraft - 142
Number of Mark 24 attacks by Allied (primarily British) aircraft - 62
Number of German U-boats sunk by FIDO - 31
Number of German U-boats damaged by FIDO - 15
Number of Japanese submarines sunk by FIDO -6
Number of Japanese submarines damaged by FIDO -3
Total number of submarines sunk by FIDO (German & Japanese) -37
Total number of submarines damaged -18

Nemo

[Troublous_Haze]

Thanks, you're right reading about Fidos at Wikipedia currently

[sublynx]

BTW I hope everyone agree to the fact that torpedo hit to a u-boat in RL was deadly by all means. 100% destruction of the hull that is.

This reminds me of story of a soldier who was shot between the eyes by a sniper and survived...

One possible explanation for this very odd finding that Fido hits were not always kills is the size of the warhead. Fido had only 100 lb of explosives, when the warhead of MK 14 torpedo was 640 lb. I would also think that in a way submarines would have to be more durable than merchant ships as submarines are designed to be able to deal with water pressure at great depths. I think that that would mean that they could endure more pressure resulting from an explosion as well. Probably not as well as a warship with armor, but perhaps better than an unarmored steamer?

[Sailor Steve]

I would also think that in a way submarines would have to be more durable than merchant ships as submarines are designed to be able to deal with water pressure at great depths. I think that that would mean that they could endure more pressure resulting from an explosion as well. Probably not as well as a warship with armor, but perhaps better than an unarmored steamer?
Actually armor on a warship is no protection against torpedoes at all. The fact that the armor plate is a lot thicker than the 1/2" hull plates normally used helps some, but it is also more brittle, plus because of its weight the area covered by the armor is limited, and even a shallow-running torpedo will hit below the bottom of the armor. Near the end of the First World War they began experimenting with anti-torpedo bulges. These involved an extra section of steel (unarmored and usually no thicker than the hull plates), the idea being that the explosion would take place away from the hull itself. I imagine that a submarine would have a small chance of surviving a FIDO hit because of the same principle - the gap between the outer hull and the pressure hull.

[Gammel]

Outstanding!

So will we see one day ship fired torpedos too?

[Rubini]

Outstanding!

So will we see one day ship fired torpedos too?

Hi Gammel,

Yes, the virtual particle approach can be adapted for any ship or plane, so you can see it (the torpedos) being released in good shape...but not the torpedo itself running just after it hit the water. The Ai torpedos on sh3 continues with only being spawed looking north...a engine limitation without fix yet (I´m close...:D) but some seconds later it will be armed and will appears runing near your target. It´s in truth a compromise solution as we yet have not a complete one. Anyhow, the overall feeling/visual and results are very good. The player will not notice these tricks.


Now some update on the mod:

I spent the last 4 days just trying the best adjust for all the stuff to run ok on the campaigns (for SM or simple SCR scripts it´s ok since first release). So after hard time (fu*&% good game!) i achieve to have all aspects solved and it´s now totally problems free running at the Campaign_RND.mis!:up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Rubini is just too cool for school!:arrgh!:

[TorpX]

One possible explanation for this very odd finding that Fido hits were not always kills is the size of the warhead. Fido had only 100 lb of explosives, when the warhead of MK 14 torpedo was 640 lb. I would also think that in a way submarines would have to be more durable than merchant ships as submarines are designed to be able to deal with water pressure at great depths. I think that that would mean that they could endure more pressure resulting from an explosion as well. Probably not as well as a warship with armor, but perhaps better than an unarmored steamer?
Another possible explanation is that the Fido is homing in on the sound the screws make, and so is likely to hit near the stern. This, I think, allows a much better chance to survive than a hit amidships.

[orlos2]

Will this mod be playable with GWX? Can't wait for it!

[Missing Name]

This is... amazing. I don't know what else to say.

[Rubini]

New version is on the way. See the mod [REL] main thread, post 40 for what is comming! ETA tomorrow. See you!:up:

[Rubini]

New mod version released (v2)! See here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=197762 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=197762)