Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged)

[STEED]

First link is more to do with Germany.
Soros calls on Berlin to contribute more to save euro
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/soros-calls-berlin-contribute-more-save-euro-195025760.html

Second link Euro.
Euro crisis has entered a more lethal phase, says Soros
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/euro-crisis-entered-more-lethal-005600456.html

As I recall he bet against the pound back in 1992 just before Black Wednesday.

Over to Skybird...

[Skybird]

Over to Skybird...
http://diefreiheitsliebe.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/atombombe-300x217.jpg (http://diefreiheitsliebe.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/atombombe.jpg)


The dark Sith Lord is on the dancefloor again. Having ripped of Britain, he now tries the same with Germany - he has bought 2 billion in liabilites from critial Euro-countries like Greece and Spain, for which he now wants Germany to bail them out so that his bet wins and he can make a profit from it. His hitting the drum on the Germans since months. Debts, debts, more debts - in principle he just wanst to keep the snowballing chainmail-system staying alive a bit longer. Germany can happily bite the dust after he made his profit.

What is money? Money was a tool to exchange goods more easily without needing to carry said goods in reality with you. But then somethign bad happened, money turned from being a tool for trading to being the object of trade itself. It was taken out of the cycle where in needs to fow to keep business-makign alive, it was saved and stockpiled and became the target of the trading intewtiuon, not just a tool to ease trading. It became an item, a good. And that was bad. The poorer ones need to lend money, for which they need to pay interests. The interests represent money that has no real value in goods, items or commodities. It started to became abstract value only. The rich started to accumulate this abstract value, and traded it as if it were real, material items and goods. The pooro needed to serve their inteerests moreand more, since the credit they took to serve the former credit, accumulated to their existing debts. In toher words: the poor's debts rise, due to rising interest obligations, and the rich whith their stockpiled money become wealthier over nothing. Even more - more and more money is in circulation that is "uncovered" by real materiual asset, value, goods. It is abstract value, that is leased away, priodcues real meterial interest and thus sucks m aterial wealth from the poor to those having had abstract wealth, but by this afflus become wealthier in real value as well.

The monetarian system and finacial maerkets we have, are sick and rotten to the bone. They are the core of the problem themselves.

This is the misery we see in Greece currently. The interests for their debts is strangling them, and saviong more and more is killing what is remainign fo their small economy. My anger with them is not so much over interests and being poor,. but about their fingerpojnting at otzhers, that they hold others responisble for their own failings, the criminal selfishness of their corrupt political establishement (I say: shoot their politicians on sight in thre streets), and calling Germany a Nazi regime.

The problem of today'S financial misery are people like Soros himself: the wealth of the one, needs the debt of the other - and somebody else except the welathy< one to bail the debtor out if he cannot serve his interests anymore. The whole current financial system guarantees a financial redistribution on a massive scale.

Interests is the price you have to pay in order to buy money. Again: money has become a trading item itselt today, which is part of the explanation why things went so terribly wrong recently.

What this means for states? Take Germany. From 1970 to 2009, Germany trook debts in the range of 1596 billion Euro. In the same time, it had to pay interests for old credits and credits taken during this time, totalling 1562 billion euros. Only 34 billion of these ammounts of mony were spend on general public purposes and circulated in the general financial economy. The remaing 1500+ billion ended up in the hand of creditors who lend these moneys and earned interests for doing so, they gained a profit for - doing nothing. The public debts meanwhile skyrocketed, which means guarantee for future profits of creditors.

This puts Soros' demands into relation, I think. He wants to make more money, that'S why he is saying what he says.

In a book from 2011 ("Geld - Der vetrackte Kern des Kapitalismus"), financial journalist Lucas Zeise gave this nice anecdote:

There was a village, that lived by tourism until the financial breakdown 2008. Suddenly, tourists stayed away, and the people living in that vilage had to lend money from each other to survive. But then, one foreigner entered the localo hotel, and demanded a room. He payed in advance with a 100 Euro note. The hotel owner took the note to the butcher becasue he owed him 100 Euros. The butcher took the 100 Euro to the farmer whose cattle he still needed to pay. The farmer took the money to the whore in the village, whom he still did owe 100 Euros. The whore took the 100 Euros to the hotel owner, because she occassionally rented a room in his hotel, and still owed him 100 Euros. When she put the note on the table, the tourist came down the stairs, fetched the 100 Euros off the table, said he had changed his mind, and left. - Well, nobody in the village had won money, nobody had lost money, there were no gains and no losses for anyone. But for some reason everybody was suddenly free of debts.

The big ammounts of mony owned by the few, are a big problem for the money not having money, becasue the money of the rich is missing in the financial cycle. We see it in every richer nation in the West: more and more wwelath gets acucmulated in fewer and fewer hands, more and more parts of the population owqn smallwer and smaller ammouints of the avilable wealth. The spread between decreasing rich and increasing poor is widening, and with growing pace. That is true inside nations, but on a global stage as well. Helmut Creutz wrote in the mid-90s, that the 4000 million dollar in developing aid that were collected in the industrial nations at that time, were enough only for serving the interest obligations of the third world for a meager 12 days. In oher words: since the poor states need to finance themselves all by themselves for the remaining 353 days of the year, inclducind making new debts, the developement aid that the industrial nations payed, was back with them after 12 days.

The richest 10% of the German people own 60% of all national properties and wealth. The richest 20% own over 80% of the wealth, while the remaining 80% of the Germans share the remaining 20% of wealth. The poorest 50% of the population even need to share just 2% of the German welath.

On a global scale, these relations are even worse: by numbers from 2006, the richest 2% of the world'S population own more than 50% of the global welath, the richest 10% of the world's population own 85% of the global wealth, the poorer half of the world population (50%), ownes only 1% (World Institute for Developement Economics Research, Decembre 2006)

And lets face it, the rich elites cannot compensate the lack of buying power in the huge majoirty of the population. Stockpiling this money and excluding it from the economic cylce, does damage to the whole, also it devalues the money in circulation by inflation that is the inevitable consequence of borrowing money to pay old interests, paying interests for the new debts, and by this incrasing the ammount of money without increasing real values to compensate and to balance the monetarian increase. This is what esopecially in America is not being understood, and is underestimated in danger. The damage done by this, is struczural, and thus much, much harder to be adressed in the future. The Fed without doubt is one of the most stupid or most desperate institutions on this planet. Look at the numbers for 1st quarter, propagandists said there is a rise in Us economy and jobs. But that Amwrica for the I think 42nd month in sequence had to increase its debtsa and increaing its budget deficit, and that these proclaimed gains were "acchieved" at the cost of making more debts and milking the tax payer - this they forgot to mention.

It'S all FUBAR, I think. I have no idea how the world could ever get out of this self-destructive trap. We are too deep in it.

And people like Soros - still cannot get enough. :nope: For a short while, some time ago, I fell for him when reading his website and his revolutionary propaganda there. Thankfully I have the ability to recognise and to correct mistakes I made, sometimes.

[STEED]

The dark Sith Lord is on the dancefloor again. Having ripped of Britain, he now tries the same with Germany - he has bought 2 billion in liabilites from critial Euro-countries like Greece and Spain, for which he now wants Germany to bail them out so that his bet wins and he can make a profit from it. His hitting the drum on the Germans since months. Debts, debts, more debts - in principle he just wanst to keep the snowballing chainmail-system staying alive a bit longer. Germany can happily bite the dust after he made his profit.



Sounds like another jamie diamond of JPMorgan Chase, wants to rip off people.

Thanks Sky. :up:

[Diopos]

Actually my friend (or not) Skybird you know s***t about how the Greeks feel and who they blame, other than what the media say. In the early days of the crisis when there was talk about """technical help""" from Europe and more specifically Germany there were many people here who thought "great bring in the germans and maybe we'll put some order in the place". The mood shifted when parts of the german media started to routinely portray the whole nation in a derogative manner.
For the moment people here are leaving the country, others are putting guns on their heads and pulling the trigger. Don't worry, eventually someone will decide to aim the gun elsewhere. By the way, some of those leaving are finding jobs in Germany. Are you hiring lazy thieves with a tendency to live beyond their means?

.

[Catfish]

It is certainly à la mode to bash the Euro, but if you look behind the especially anglo-saxon stage, astonishingly just of all those agencies like Standard and Poors, Fitch or Moody's always downsize the Euro, while english and US banks and currencies gloriously make their way into the future lol.

As usual it is important to think about who gains the most out of a situation and its own actions ... despite all the public hogwash the european currency is competition and an enemy of the US one, plain and simple. What do you think will happen when oil will be payed in Euro or Yen, instead of US dollars ?
We are in a hot industrial and currency war if you did not realize that before, and american money rating agencies will act accordingly.

Also please to all greeks, you do not really believe what the german Bildzeitung writes is what germans really think, or does anyone believe Silvio Berlusconi's or Rupert Murdoch's media, the "Sun", or even "Fox news" ?
Really :rotfl2:

[joea]

(I say: shoot their politicians on sight in thre streets), and calling Germany a Nazi regime.


Ok it's my birthday and Orthodox Easter but verdamit YOU ARE RIGHT!!!

not only the Greek politicians bw. :down:

P.S. I don't consider the Germans Nazi-but the EU...:stare:

[Skybird]

Actually my friend (or not) Skybird you know s***t about how the Greeks feel and who they blame, other than what the media say. In the early days of the crisis when there was talk about """technical help""" from Europe and more specifically Germany there were many people here who thought "great bring in the germans and maybe we'll put some order in the place". The mood shifted when parts of the german media started to routinely portray the whole nation in a derogative manner.
That was no start - that was a provoked reaction.


For the moment people here are leaving the country, others are putting guns on their heads and pulling the trigger. Don't worry, eventually someone will decide to aim the gun elsewhere. By the way, some of those leaving are finding jobs in Germany. Are you hiring lazy thieves with a tendency to live beyond their means?

Well, you Greeks seem to vote them into power time and again. Since 40 years and more.

And your guns that somebody will aim elsewhere, hm. You maintain the largest battke tank armada in European NATO, only the Yanks have more MBTs, and most of these tanks you ordered voluntarily, only on the latest tranch the German government demanded you stick to the deal. But most of your tanks are unarmed because your voted politicians managed to not order the needed ammunition. So no matter where you aim your guns - it probably fails to leave a lasting impression.

Your finance minister, btw, has just demanded a third bailout, just days ago. Obviously his former claim that now, finally, all numbers are true, are honest and are brought to light in full, once again was a lie. And whom do you expect to agree to according payments? Us stupid Nazis here in Nazi Germany who are respon sible for all your woes and worries and who stgarted to balk back when you started to call the crminals and Nazis.

As I said in the posting earlier, I fully understand the cataclysmic nature of the international finance system and how it wreaks havoc, and you can see in my remarks that I do not like it one bit, and do not defend it. I also said that what pisses me about Greece was not it's debts, but it's unwillingness to see its own share of respiksnibility, and always pointing fingers at others, and expecting those hands to help that it spits on at the same time. In other words, what pisses me is the attitude that you just once again has demonstrated. I hold German voters responsible for the votes they cast. I do the same for Greek voters who happily arranged themselves with he corruption and dilettantism since decades.

The stupid leadership, the dysfunctional structure of a society - always is an image of the stupidity of the people who voted for this system, and tolerated the structures of society so long that they could turn dysfunctional. That is true for all the Western nations. And it is true for Greece as well. And the merits of Greece in the past, millenia ago, are history lessons only. No Greek alive has any right to claim credit for what was done in culture and philosophy by foreign people who have lived 80 generations ago. So save me with the pride and greatness of Greece. That is just dead ruins and dust in the wind.

Leave the Euro. Get your own currency, and are free to manipulate your currency to your liking. This step would do punishing damage to the ECB, no worry, we are not in for getting a cheap ride when letting you go - quiotew the opposite. Stop being a lamenting burden for ewverybody, and stop calling others responsible for your very own egoism and your very own failures. Nobody forced you to join the Euro, nobody forced you to vote your fraudsters into office, nobody forced you to gain entrance into the Euro on the basis of lies and forged statistics. Your elected leaders did it, you voted for them, and when they did you all aplauded becasue you thought you had married the big money that from then on you could suck in like babies drink milk. Agreed, many others did think this way, too. But for your decisions, others are not responsible, but only you yourself are.

So, save me your laments and accusations.

BTW, if you have a qualified education and profession that is in need, you are welcomed in Germany still. German business says they are seeking employees with qualification in several branches. Just Greeks lecturing us on why it is our duty to pay for Greece and that we are Nazis if we don't - that is something you better do not do over here currently. Could upset people quite easily, could maybe even get you into trouble here and there. Because especially in the working class many people are fed up with such kind of talking.

[Skybird]

It is certainly à la mode to bash the Euro, but if you look behind the especially anglo-saxon stage, astonishingly just of all those agencies like Standard and Poors, Fitch or Moody's always downsize the Euro, while english and US banks and currencies gloriously make their way into the future lol.

As usual it is important to think about who gains the most out of a situation and its own actions ... despite all the public hogwash the european currency is competition and an enemy of the US one, plain and simple. What do you think will happen when oil will be payed in Euro or Yen, instead of US dollars ?
We are in a hot industrial and currency war if you did not realize that before, and american money rating agencies will act accordingly.

Also please to all greeks, you do not really believe what the german Bildzeitung writes is what germans really think, or does anyone believe Silvio Berlusconi's or Rupert Murdoch's media, the "Sun", or even "Fox news" ?
Really :rotfl2:
Anglosaxon traditions of economy and finance is a branch of its own. The Dollar-run and the Euro-run economies are two totally different philosophies. The difference is that the anglosaxon tradition reaches stellar debt levels earlier, while the Eurppean sphere reaches the same debt levels - just with a delay. Both result in collapses sooner or later, because both are snowballing systems.

If you look at statistics putting into relation the ammount of circulating money and abstract value bookings to the real value of the real economies, you see a still growing bubble spanning from the East to the West and from the South to the North, and most "experts" are busy with trying to pump more air into it. Guess how it will end. It's all bubble-games played by bubble-heads, and 19 out of 20 do not have a smallest clue, are tunnelviewed, unable to see contexts and feedbacks, they are Fachidioten who cannot think beyond their tight, narrow horizons that end at the rim of their table at the latest.

[Skybird]

P.S. I am wondering sometimes: is it really like that the career inside the establishment corrupts people, do they get corrupted by success and blinded by money - or couldn't it be that only certain character traits have a chance from beginning on to make it the ladder upwards, is it that a corrputed mind already is needed to be successful inside the established system, must you have an blinding fixiation on money: else they would not even let you enter the club on entrance level?

I think it is the latter. Now figure what this tells about our education systems. Our cultural values. Our mental sanity in general. Our education of the young regarding ethics and humanism.

Not really a compliment for our greatness, I would say. Bildung and Ausbildung are two very different things.

[VipertheSniper]

Oh come on Skybird, don't you remember that disgusting campaign by the "Bild". That was rude and uncalled for. I think the Greeks know full well, that they share responsibility in this mess. But ridiculing them in the newspapers, isn't going to help a single bit.

I can understand their bitterness.

[Skybird]

Oh come on Skybird, don't you remember that disgusting campaign by the "Bild". That was rude and uncalled for. I think the Greeks know full well, that they share responsibility in this mess.

Indeed. But they started first - months ahead. First they wanted Nazi gold. Then they started to campaign that Germany was conquering all Europe, and finally they compared Merkel to Hitler and Schäuble became the wickiest human being ever having lived on this planet.

And then Bild struck back, and others joined in.

Wie man in den Wald hineinbrüllt, so schallt es halt wieder heraus.

Again, my anger over some Greeks is not because their economy is in shatters. It is anger about a certain attitude that always accuses the others, and if the others do not easily will to bail them out endlessly, then criminalising them and offending them. Greece plays the self-victimization card, and its political elite obviously plans to play it time and time and time again. Another issue I have with Greece, that the parties have still not learned what the hour is by now, and still play their conspiratory games for power, knopwing that Germany has self-committed itself to bail out the Euro-Union endlessly (Merkels own verdict), by this giving a hilarious ammount of power and options for blackmailing to the southern states.

The debtor is the stronger the higher the potential write-offs are for the creditor. At some point, the balance tips over, and the debtor is stronger and can demand more than the creditor.

[krashkart]

I'd be bitter, too, if my country was falling down around my ears. And we're not that far off from it over here. :doh:

[Skybird]

A Greek's subjective observation:

Greeks embrace German thrift (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,827737,00.html)

By Georgios Christidis.

[Diopos]

A German's professional view (economic historian):
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,769703,00.html
by Albrecht Ritschl

.

[Kongo Otto]

To be honest Germany should not have wasted one Cent of their Taxpayers money for Greece, Ireland or anybody else!
For what? Why?
Be sure that nothing will change, they take our money and as thanks we get the middlefinger. German politicians just forget where they money is from the put down the drain so willingly. It's not theirs it's the money of hard working humans beeings known as taxpayers.
I really don't give a rats fart about Greece or anyone of those Sates. Your Problem, your responsibility for a solution!
Go and solve yours problems alone, why should i or any other german taxpayer care?
How many Billions of Euros has the german Government put down the drain alone for Greece and with the same breath the same German Politicians tell us "sorry we can't built new streets or schools, no money"
Aha ok then stop burning money on Greece and spent it there were it belongs to!
Spend German Taxmoney for German taxpayers!
Kick Greece out of the Eurozone, i say! They swindled their way into the Eurozone now give'em the boot and sho'em the door!
Enough is enough i say!
It's as simple as that!

[Skybird]

Kongo Otto, the problem is this damn thing called globalised economy. The German economy and the economies of the others are closely tied and interwoven, causing plenty and plenty of bilateral feedbacks. The finance market made it even worse.

So while I have voiced criticism, I do not agree with this simplified view. I understand the anger, however. Yiur remark on the Greek middlefinger holds some truth - which is why Diopos and me ran into each other repeatedly, since I see it erected into the sky, and he claims it either is not so, or is an act of self-defence.

The fundament of present crisis is simple by structure, but complex in symptoms, and too many profiteers are allowed to still benefit from delaying needed, hard solutions: rich elites, bankers, banks, politicians, big ecohjomy business and it's lobbyists. These all work against solving the problematic present, since they suck it's blood and enjoy it, like ticks.

A signle tick must not be a threatening danger. But when they swarm all about your body and sit on your skin close by close, then you have a really big problem.

[Kongo Otto]

So while I have voiced criticism, I do not agree with this simplified view. I understand the anger, however. Yiur remark on the Greek middlefinger holds some truth - which is why Diopos and me ran into each other repeatedly, since I see it erected into the sky, and he claims it either is not so, or is an act of self-defence.


Hi Skybird,
yes it's a very simplified view, but it's more a picture of anger than a real view of the things.
I'm living from a disability pension and from part time work and because the disability pension (for my Service time) is from an other country than Germany i have to pay taxes for it, also for my Part time work (but that's ok).
Yes angry i am, i'm angry that the german taxpayer has to pay the Dinner bills for other people, which lied, swindled and frauded at least for the last 20 years.
It makes me angry that i have to pay taxes which are happily given to every fraudulent government around europe who meant the Euro is a big self service outlet.
I still say: give 'em the boot and sho 'em the door.
You know the German say:
"Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende"
(Better an end with terror than terror without an end)

[Skybird]

Hi Skybird,
yes it's a very simplified view, but it's more a picture of anger than a real view of the things.
I'm living from a disability pension and from part time work and because the disability pension (for my Service time) is from an other country than Germany i have to pay taxes for it, also for my Part time work (but that's ok).
Yes angry i am, i'm angry that the german taxpayer has to pay the Dinner bills for other people, which lied, swindled and frauded at least for the last 20 years.
It makes me angry that i have to pay taxes which are happily given to every fraudulent government around europe who meant the Euro is a big self service outlet.
I still say: give 'em the boot and sho 'em the door.
You know the German say:
"Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende"
(Better an end with terror than terror without an end)
I see, and - though not for the same and very personal reasons of yours - I share your anger. If anything this should be clear by my rants about the EU and politicians, right?! :D Additional to the saying you quote - which I also agree with, I would say that the sin of people is nopt to be born rich, maybe, but to assume this welath gioves them special rights and these people being unable to truly value and appreciate the wealth they live in, instead always wanting more, and more. And more. And thinking this were their natural right tzo take from others.

For whom enough is not enough, nothing will ever be enough.

Are you a vet having migrated to Germany? A Brit, or American?

[Kongo Otto]

Are you a vet having migrated to Germany? A Brit, or American?

No i'm German.

[Skybird]

Paul Krugman's simplistic take on the Euro crisis (http://flatworld.welt.de/2012/04/17/paul-krugmans-simplistic-take-on-the-euro-crisis/)

Germany's fate now is in the hand of others (http://flatworld.welt.de/2011/10/04/euro-crisis-shows-germans-that-there-fate-is-now-in-the-hand-of-others/#more-522)(from Octobre 2011)

[joea]

That was no start - that was a provoked reaction.


Well, you Greeks seem to vote them into power time and again. Since 40 years and more.

And your guns that somebody will aim elsewhere, hm. You maintain the largest battke tank armada in European NATO, only the Yanks have more MBTs, and most of these tanks you ordered voluntarily, only on the latest tranch the German government demanded you stick to the deal. But most of your tanks are unarmed because your voted politicians managed to not order the needed ammunition. So no matter where you aim your guns - it probably fails to leave a lasting impression.

Your finance minister, btw, has just demanded a third bailout, just days ago. Obviously his former claim that now, finally, all numbers are true, are honest and are brought to light in full, once again was a lie. And whom do you expect to agree to according payments? Us stupid Nazis here in Nazi Germany who are respon sible for all your woes and worries and who stgarted to balk back when you started to call the crminals and Nazis.

As I said in the posting earlier, I fully understand the cataclysmic nature of the international finance system and how it wreaks havoc, and you can see in my remarks that I do not like it one bit, and do not defend it. I also said that what pisses me about Greece was not it's debts, but it's unwillingness to see its own share of respiksnibility, and always pointing fingers at others, and expecting those hands to help that it spits on at the same time. In other words, what pisses me is the attitude that you just once again has demonstrated. I hold German voters responsible for the votes they cast. I do the same for Greek voters who happily arranged themselves with he corruption and dilettantism since decades.

The stupid leadership, the dysfunctional structure of a society - always is an image of the stupidity of the people who voted for this system, and tolerated the structures of society so long that they could turn dysfunctional. That is true for all the Western nations. And it is true for Greece as well. And the merits of Greece in the past, millenia ago, are history lessons only. No Greek alive has any right to claim credit for what was done in culture and philosophy by foreign people who have lived 80 generations ago. So save me with the pride and greatness of Greece. That is just dead ruins and dust in the wind.

Leave the Euro. Get your own currency, and are free to manipulate your currency to your liking. This step would do punishing damage to the ECB, no worry, we are not in for getting a cheap ride when letting you go - quiotew the opposite. Stop being a lamenting burden for ewverybody, and stop calling others responsible for your very own egoism and your very own failures. Nobody forced you to join the Euro, nobody forced you to vote your fraudsters into office, nobody forced you to gain entrance into the Euro on the basis of lies and forged statistics. Your elected leaders did it, you voted for them, and when they did you all aplauded becasue you thought you had married the big money that from then on you could suck in like babies drink milk. Agreed, many others did think this way, too. But for your decisions, others are not responsible, but only you yourself are.

So, save me your laments and accusations.

BTW, if you have a qualified education and profession that is in need, you are welcomed in Germany still. German business says they are seeking employees with qualification in several branches. Just Greeks lecturing us on why it is our duty to pay for Greece and that we are Nazis if we don't - that is something you better do not do over here currently. Could upset people quite easily, could maybe even get you into trouble here and there. Because especially in the working class many people are fed up with such kind of talking.

Hmm sorry to bump up this thread-I do tend to avoid these as I am sick of attitudes and stereotypes on both sides, the last part seems a bit like a threat. I do acknowledge your attitude is not sparing of any nation or group including your own-I just want to say I disagree with the bold part. At least, this might be a good point for another thread. You cannot I think expect people to ignore their heritage-both the good and the bad. We cannot take credit or blame-but have a special responsibility to highlight the dark spots and the light and learn from both-and this of course applies to taking care of physical heritage.

In terms of today's crisis well, the recent past is of more import here. I am not optimistic but can only hope something better can be built over the long term.

[Skybird]

That was something I gave as a reply in an earlier thread, and did again here. It is due to the fact that some weeks ago there were Greek poltiicians raising complains and criticism of the ge rman by explicitly pointing out what a great history Greece has, and that this pride resulting is something that forbids the german arguments and demands. I agree that it had a great past culture, and that it had massively influenced Europe. My own thinking is basing fundamentally on philosphical and intellectual traditions and principles whose roots were founded by Greek philosophers.

Bad news is: they all are dead. Since millenia. Can'T ask them anything today anymore. Can't give them a public office.

History is just this: history. The facts were formed back then - today's people have no merits in having participated in their creation, for it happened nbefore today's people's times. And living with one'S head stuck in the far away past, never is a good thing. Because the present does not go away.

What there is in merits and resources today is what decides Greece's fate in the present. For the gold medal at the olympic games at the times of Rome you cannot buy Greek relief today anymore. Plato'S fame does not earn present Greece any respectability today anymore. And ancient ruins are just this: ruins of something long since gone.


Also, the history of Greece is not that shiny in completeness at all. I read historians commenting like that the past of Greece is the best hint so far why Greece does not function as a state in the present, and in the forseeable future. I mean its administration is hopelessly dysfunctional, there are no registers, not even legal taxes can be collectd and overwtched in final totals, npobody knows what is happening, and the bureaucracy is hopelessly blown up in size. It just does not function, and nthat'S why things are today like they are. It has no tradition of being a functioning state.

If you understand German, I can try to find an according essay again from maybe half a year ago, from a German newspaper I think. But I need to find it first, and have clue by whom it was and where I had found it. Also, the ancient era of Greece also showed how democracy in the Greek city states went wrong time and again, corruption taking over and messing things up. Critical historians would replace the label of Greece as "cradle of democracy" with "cradle of corruption and dysfunctional state administration". The problems Greece has today, have a tradition that reaches back centuries and centuries and centuries. The EU suffers from extremley heavy wishful thinking here.

Which is another reason why I am very pessimistic about Greece.

[joea]

Critical historians would replace the label of Greece as "cradle of democracy" with "cradle of corruption and dysfunctional state administration". The problems Greece has today, have a tradition that reaches back centuries and centuries and centuries.

Please give me the names of these historians (I don't read German unfortunately) - anyway it appears to be more stereotyping, just as wrong as saying "Germans are naturally militaristic" IMO. I am really convinced there are folks who are happy to see these kinds of divisions arise between peoples.

I think I better limit my participation in these kind of threads. :down:

[Skybird]

I see if I remember and find those articles. Can'T promise, I do not keep records on my surfing.

What I recall right now by memory is Herrfried Münkler, professor for politics in Berlin, making remarks on corruption levels in ancient Athens eroding democratic principles, the dialogue with the Meliers as described by Thukydides being exemplary how empires cannot afford not to react to even minor challenges only, and democratic structures in ancient Greek city states different to Athen repeatedly being threatend and eroded by corruption. The part over the Meliers probably was in his book about the rise and fall of empires, the other stuff I believe to recall to have been a comprehensive essay online somwhere, or a book-excerpt online.

Keegan, Huntington, Creveld and Kennedy it were not, I'm sure. Just saying that since I mentioned all these repeatedly.

Joe, I try to avoid stereotyping. I open fire at the eU, at European nations, at the US, and at Germany. I have no intention to make an exception from the rule with Greece. And that Greece is far left behind in corruption indices, is a fact. You can check the statistics and nation rankings at Transparency International, for example, they update their index at least once a year. In Europe, corruption is worse only in Bulgaria, they said last time I looked. That is not meant as an insult, I just call the facts by their names. Sweet-talking about and glossing over a very bad status quo will not help anyone - not Greece's creditors, nor Greece itself. As we foriegners see it, Greece has gotten away with cheating far too long, and now the mess is as big as it is as a coinsequent result. It is no surprise, and it is no plague that fell out of the blue sky into man'S realm.

[Skybird]

No luck in my search so far, but I found this which is kind of a summary of the essay I am after.
The author Richard Wagner was born in Rumania, moved to Germany, and was/is journalist, independant writer and author.

This piece is no attempt to get away in a cheap way, Joea. I find it is indeed a very good description of historic processes that led to a shattered national mentality and to the forming of a nation named Greece not before some 100 years ago. The website I found it at, is one of my prferred sites to visit, against the mainstream, but with some very solid, reasonable minds writing and posting there. And politically often very incorrect, which is great.

Ein Protektorat für Griechenland

Das Missverständnis beginnt damit, dass man mit Griechenland eine große Zeit verbindet. Kein Nachrichtenbild ohne Akropolis. Der Westen hält das Land nicht nur für einen Ausläufer der Antike, sondern gleich für einen Repräsentanten dieser Hochkulturphantasie. Was er sich selbst symbolisch angeeignet hat, hält er insgesamt für symbolisch transportierbar.
Griechenland aber ist nicht Griechenland. Es ist es nie gewesen. Das heutige Griechenland gibt es seit dem frühen 19. Jahrhundert und seine Traditionen beruhen auf dem Bekenntnis zur Ostkirche und zu deren politischer Ausmalung, zu Byzanz. Byzanz war, als ideeller und realer Mittelpunkt der Orthodoxie, nie an Reformen beteiligt, weder an kirchlichen noch an weltlichen.
Die zweite Prämisse für das Wesen des heutigen Griechenland stellt eine jahrhundertelange osmanische Herrschaft dar, die, ähnlich wie auf dem Balkan, mentalitätszerstörerisch wirkte, indem sie den gesamten Raum, einschließlich Griechenland, von der westlichen Entwicklung seit der Renaissance abgeschnitten hat.
Auch in Griechenland gab es im 19. Jahrhundert, getragen von der Welle europäischer Gedankenflüge und des Kontaktes mit diesen, eine ausgeprägte nationale Idee. Mehr aber auch nicht. Der Unterschied zwischen der Nationalvorstellung, wie sie im Westen Fuß fassen konnte und jener im Osten Europas ist einfach: Die einen hatten zwingende Gründe und Vorgaben durch Industrialisierung und laufende Auswertung der Schriftkultur, die anderen hatten Träume. Griechenland gehörte zu den Träumern.
Nun liebt man bekanntlich die Träumer nirgends so sehr als im Westen Europas. Sie sind dort früh zur kollektiven Fantasie gestoßen. Die französische Revolution hat den Hang zur Imagination noch verstärkt und die Romantik hat ihres dazu beigetragen, dass die Folklore über den Helden diesen zu einer der wichtigsten Imaginations- und Denkfiguren der westlichen Öffentlichkeit machen konnte. Die Kämpfer für Freiheit und Gerechtigkeit wurden spätestens mit der Einführung der Presse zu Serienhelden gekürt. So wurde der Rebell zum Inidvidualisten.
Dieser Hang des Westens, die Realität durch die Imagination zu ergänzen und es zu goutieren, kann dem Abendland nichts anhaben, und kommt zunächst einmal dem östlichen Rand Europas zugute. Er hilft den Stillstand der osmanischen Herrschaft zu überwinden. Die das wollten, waren kleine Gruppen aus der einheimischen Oberschicht, die aufgrund ihrer Privilegien und Besitztümer den Westen kennen gelernt hatten.
Ihre Chance war die geopolitische Situation im Europa des 19. Jahrhunderts. Die Zerstrittenheit der sehr verschiedenen Großmächte. Für Länder wie Griechenland war der zukünftige Zerfall des Osmanischen Reiches entscheidend, und das in Verbindung mit den Interessen Russlands an den Dardanellen, dem Flotten-Zugang vom Schwarzen Meer in die Ägäis, sowie den Mittelmeerplänen der westlichen Kolonialakteure, deren Ziel es war, die osmanische Herrschaft zu beenden, um näher an die Rohstoffe des vorderen Orient, zu kommen.
Fantasien und Interessen des Westens brachten die Griechen in die Rolle der Freiheitskämpfer. Ihr Image entstand nicht aus der eigenen Situation, sondern aus deren Instrumentalisierung. Ihre Chance bestand nicht darin, einen lang gehegten kollektiven Wunsch zu verwirklichen, sondern die instrumentalisierte Situation zu nutzen.
So hatte der Vorgang von Anfang an mehr mit seiner Darstellung als mit der in ihm enthaltenen Wahrheit zu tun. Schlimmer aber ist, folgenreicher, dass die Griechen, wie die Balkanvölker insgesamt, lernten, wie man sich angesichts der Großmachtinteressen am besten durchmogelt, und von den Divergenzen und Konflikten zwischen den Großmächten profitiert bzw. buchstäblich Kapital daraus schlagen kann.
Griechenland war nicht nur keine ganz gewöhnliche Demokratie, wie es ab und zu gesagt wird, es war nicht einmal eine nach modernen Kriterien installierte Gesellschaft. Die Institutionen waren Scheininstitutionen, flankiert von der dazugehörenden Verwaltungskorruption. Und das wichtigste: Griechenland lebte nie von der wirtschaftlichen Leistung, es lebte von seiner geopolitischen Lage. Solange es gegen das Osmanische Reich ging, war es Brückenkopf für Russland und für die Entente, im Kalten Krieg war es unverzichtbar für die Sicherung der Südostflanke der NATO. Es gab stets einen Grund, Griechenland zu alimentieren.
Griechenland ist ein Opfer von 1989 geworden. Das Ende des Kalten Krieges war nicht nur die Stunde der Freiheit in Europa, sondern für nicht wenige, die sich in den symbolischen Schützengräben bequem eingerichtet hatten, auch die Stunde der Wahrheit. Griechenland hatte gewissermaßen ein ähnliches Problem wie das Tito-Jugoslawien. Der Staatshaushalt war gar nicht mit eigenen Mitteln zu erwirtschaften, wurde aber von den Supermächten stillschweigend ausgeglichen.
Die heutige Katastrophe, in die Griechenland geraten ist, beruht auf einem Missverständnis zwischen EU und Griechenland. Griechenlands Beitritt zur EU und zur Eurozone ist mit einem klassischen politischen Denken in Athen zu erklären. Man schließt sich dem Imperium an. Das Missverständnis war, die EU als klassisches Imperium zu betrachten. Die EU hat zwar eine imperiale Rolle, aber sie legt Wert darauf, dieses Imperiale selbst zu definieren und es erst, wenn es als Notwendigkeit erscheint, zuzulassen.
Der Unterschied zur klassischen Konstellation im Europa des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts besteht vor allem darin, dass die Fronten der Welt nicht mehr durch Europa verlaufen, dass Europa kein Schauplatz der Konflikte mehr ist. In welcher Weise sollte Griechenland sich in Brüssel und Straßburg nützlich machen können? Es gibt keinen einzigen sinnvollen Grund, den Staat Griechenland, wenn er nicht lebensfähig ist, weiter am Leben zu halten. Jede Nation hat zwar nach europäischen Vorstellungen, spätestens mit der französischen Revolution, das Recht auf einen eigenen Staat, aber nicht das Recht auf europäische Standards, wenn sie nicht durch eigene Leistung aufgebracht werden können.
Es gibt keinen Anspruch auf die Mitgliedschaft in der Eurozone, es gibt nur das Recht auf einen Antrag zu einer solchen Mitgliedschaft. In der Griechenland Frage müssen alle Beteiligten die Lüge erkennen und überwinden können. Die Wahrheit ist brutal. Entweder man schließt Griechenland aus der Eurozone aus und riskiert ein Chaos im Lande oder man stellt es unter eine direkte Verwaltung der Europäischen Union. Es wäre eine Art Konkursverwaltung. Damit kollidiert man aber mit dem ausgeprägtem griechischen Nationalbewusstsein und bekommt es ebenfalls mit Unruhen zu tun. Kurzum, wer eine Ordnung ins Griechische System bringen will, wird, so oder so, auf große Schwierigkeiten stoßen. Also sollte man das Protektorat, als effektivstes Mittel des Krisenmanagements in Erwägung ziehen.

bold markings by me.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/ein_protektorat_fuer_griechenland/

[Diopos]

Would really to see that text in english. Don't want to comment on it based on auto-translation.:hmmm:

.

[Skybird]

In very brief, the main points:

The West mistakes the role of Greece in the ancient era and overestimates it, because it'S cultural heritage infleunced the West in later times. In fact the ancient era is so much more than only Greece.

Modern Greece exists since only early 19th century, and in the ancient era it was not one state, but man cities. Modern Greece's traditions base on orientation towards the Bycantine tradition and Eastern church, both of which were not known for being reformistic (Skybird: Bycantine was blocked "to death" by administrative inability during the centuries-long war with the Persian Sassanides) in relgious or poltical ways.

The centuries-long occupation by Islam had a mentality-destroying effect on Greece, like it had the same effect on the balkans. The area was sealed off from the West and the Rennaissance. The differenc ebetween weas that the West's national self-understzanding was driven by the puishiung industrialisation and the onpoing interaction with content and ideas, whereas Greece was locked in Islamic self-paralysis and fatalism and just had dreams instead of civilisational, developing needs motivating it.

The Greek more and more grew into the mentality of resitence fihgters instead, against the Osmans. European sympathy for dreams and ideals (especially during the German Romantik era )helped to earn Greece such smypathy for itself. This easily leads to transfiguration. Only few, small groups, "elites", managed to get into contact with the unfolding cultural deveopement in Europe, but these elites left the rest of the Greek people more or less behind, isolated. You see that until today, especially in the current crisis.

Greece never was able to live by itself, economically, industrially, and it never had resources enabling to be a self-maintaining state. It's chance were its geopolitcal position: european colonial powers fighting over dominance in the Mediterranean to gain access to the Orient, the Russians and the Dardanelles, and before all: the fall of the Osman empire. Thus the Greek needed to learn - and excelled in that - to not focus on realsijng the idea of a ntion but to make best use of the situation geopolitics have put them into, and instrumkentalising that to their best advantage. Like the Balkan people, they learned how to opportunistically use the divergences between the great powers for best own profit, and get away with it.

Greece not only was no oridnary democracy like th eothers, it even was no installed/institutionalised society by modern criteria (Skybird: until today the state has no registers in many ministries by which these offices could do administrative work, there is no tax register, nbo house property register, and a significant part of Greek pay their taxes - if they pay taxes! - in farming products instead of money. The list of lacking administrative abilities and characteristics of a modern state goes on and on). Corruption always was high, since auhtorities were incompetent to tackle it, and unwilling, and were not even püroperly installed in themselves.

Greece never lived by its economical power and production (as a state), but its geopoltical position made sure there always were greater powers willing to support it and to make any differences in the balance straight. The state budget never was able to be earned by Greece' own'S economic potential, but the superpowers payed the differences, later the EU. The end of the cold war - for Greece it marked the beginning of the end. 1989 was a disaster for Greece.

Athen, by a classical thinking of always "joining the empire", overlooked that the EU is an empire of a slightly different nature than those before. Also, there currentlxy are no conflict lines drawn through Europe along which conflicts emegre that could give Greece the benefit of presenting itself as a demanded geopolitcal psoition worth to be supported. The interest of the Russians has declined. That of the Americans has gone. That of the EU is dropping, too. Athen simply has nopthign to offer that would motivate other powers to endlessly come up for a hige part of the Greek budget. Greece can no longer play the geopolitcal card like it did in the past almost 200 years.

People have th eright to desire an own state, but they have no right to demand europoean stanbdards if they cannot produce, finance and support these standards by their own productivity and economic power. There is no right for membership in the Eurozone, there is only the right to file an according request for membership - which can be answered with Yes or No.

Only two alternatives for Greece today: either throw it out of the Euro, or to turn it into an protectorate administrated by the EU, which would mean nothing else but a receivership (=Konkursverwaltung). But the latter collides with the strong Greek pride resulting from the Greek-selfunderstanding as "resistence-fighters" as mentioned earlier.

In other words, whatever gets done, it will lead to immense social unrest and conflicts, and big problems.

The author concludes fginally that the protectiorate might be the best option as a form of crisis manage,ment. But when I look at the last time the EU ran a crisis management - Kosovo, Bosnia, Balkan - I have my doubts.

[Diopos]

Thanks Sky for the translation (and the effort :yep:). Comments to follow soon.

.

[Oberon]

I'm waiting to see what Hollande is going to do...if he's all talk and no trousers then things will stay the same...but if he bucks the current trend...then things may get...for want of a word that won't incur me an infraction...interesting.

[Skybird]

Headlines today: Netherlands. France. Spain. Czech Republic.

Many money-printing hounds soon catch the German cash cow.

But nobody so far said what should be done once the German cow has been killed and eaten? There will be nobody else to milk anymore.

[joea]

Sorry for the late answer, very thoughtful comments as always Sky. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Sorry for the late answer, very thoughtful comments as always Sky. :hmmm:
No, last time I just translated/summarised somebody else's comment! ;)

[Onkel Neal]

You really showed the Man. Your mindless activism and senseless violence snuffed out the lives of decent people.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/02/world/europe/greece-papathanasopoulou-family/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Looking forward to someone coming along and throwing blame on the bank. :nope:

[the_tyrant]

Well they aready are.

Seriously, charging the people at the bank, but not the people fireboming it?

Further, he said, the bank was confident the courts would rule in favor of the executives and there was "surprise" those who caused the incident remained free.

seriously, an extra layer of glass can't do much, when even armed police can't stop it

[Jimbuna]

Terribly tragic :nope:

I wonder if the photographer who followed the firebombers part of the way has any photographic evidence that might help the authorities identify the arsonists/murderers?

[Stealhead]

I imagine so but anarchists are known to cover their faces when they do their thing so it might be hard to identify someone.

[Jimbuna]

I imagine so but anarchists are known to cover their faces when they do their thing so it might be hard to identify someone.

Oh I agree but it just might bring some to justice if there is evidence.

[Stealhead]

Oh I agree but it just might bring some to justice if there is evidence.

True and with modern technology you could ID someone just by the eyes and upper face that may not be hidden if a good enough image is used enough to mark a person of interest at least.

[JU_88]

Yes its a tragic story and I hope the scumbags responsible are punished.
but it seems like it could be rather selective journalism, possibly designed to make us go - 'booo hisss' at the bad protestors and make us feel some empathy for the good bankers? maybe? or maybe not, but im just throwing it out there as possibility.

My heart goes out to this woman- but in reality, there is a story like this for every innocent person who is senslessly killed in the world (for what ever reason.)
I wonder how many 'Angeliki Papathanasopoulou's' there are in Iraq and afghanistan for example?
Do we cry for them? Does CNN report it?.. nahh of course not.

Im just saying.....

[Kongo Otto]

Teribble tragedy!

But you are aware that this incident already happened in 2010?

[Jimbuna]

Happens every day of the week in one place or another :nope:

[Kongo Otto]

Happens every day of the week in one place or another :nope:

Sadly!

[Penguin]

Way to lump hundreds of thousands of protesters together! The same thinking in reverse people have, who would call any and every cop a murderer after the death of a protestor, like after the death of Ian Tomlinson in 2009.
Killing people is not the means and way by which the political left goes.
That's why I doubt that it really happened the way CNN tells:

When the group got to Marfin, other protesters begged them not to attack the bank: "No, there are people in there." But they were ignored: "F**k them, burn it, burn the rich," the cries continued.
If it was known that there were people in the bank, certainly people would have tried to stop it not only verbally, I am talking about real protesters, not kids who want to post their cool riot pics on facebook.
Yes, people blame the banks, but not the little employees.
Despite this, it is always idiotic to torch a building, as there can never be a 100% certainity that nobody is in there, and politically nothing is won. Some people may that that is symbolism, like throwing paint, but to me it is idiotic. You can never control a fire and a molotov is indeed a deadly weapon.


Looking forward to someone coming along and throwing blame on the bank. :nope:

While indeed the individual(s) who torched the building are to blame for this tragedy, here is one piece an alleged bank employee from the very same company wrote on the night of the event: http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2010/05/05/an-employee-of-marfin-bank-speaks-on-tonights-tragic-deaths-in-athens/

I have not done more research how much of it is true, some facts like that the employees had to work on the day of a general strike in an institution that got blamed for the crisis (read: a potential target of the protests) are undeniable.
This (http://www.grreporter.info/en/police_investigation_found_five_fireraising_anarch ists_year_after_tragedy_marfin_bank/4449) article from last year also says something about an ongoing investigation against the bank for violation of fire codes.

According to the labour inspection report issued in July 2010, in their attempts to escape the fire the 27 employees of the Bank have found themselves in an iron cage. The only emergency exit was locked and the remote control that opens it was lost. The tragedy would have been even greater if a door had not been opened, which the employees used as ventilation against the bad smell coming from one of the toilets in the bank
Again: Screw the people who torched the building, I hope they will be held responsible, but please don't paint any protestor in Greece or anywhere else in the same color.

[JU_88]

Sure - its not right to band all protesters in one basket, just as you shouldn't do so with Bankers. also protesting and rioting are two seperate things.

The police here actually have the right to shoot-to-kill a rioter if he is attempting to torch a business that has residental appartments above it.
I wish they would.
......I am all for Police brutality when its used in the right context such as the above example.

[Penguin]

also protesting and rioting are two seperate things.


Yes, but it is not only b/w, protests and protests that become violent are rather complex. I have witnessed escalations from both sides, sometimes even at the same event. The blame-game aftermath however always looks the same: "oh, it's THEIR fault! We did nothing. THEY started it!" - on all sides... :doh:


The police here actually have the right to shoot-to-kill a rioter if he is attempting to torch a business that has residental appartments above it.
......I have no problem with that.

I think we both still have the pictures from last year's London riots in our head, where it was just pure luck and coincidence that nobody died in a burning building. :nope:
If someone would try to torch the building where I reside and I had a gun at hand, I would certainly use it, no doubt about that.

[JU_88]

Yes, but it is not only b/w, protests and protests that become violent are rather complex. I have witnessed escalations from both sides, sometimes even at the same event. The blame-game aftermath however always looks the same: "oh, it's THEIR fault! We did nothing. THEY started it!" - on all sides... :doh:



I think we both still have the pictures from last year's London riots in our head, where it was just pure luck and coincidence that nobody died in a burning building. :nope:
If someone would try to torch the building where I reside and I had a gun at hand, I would certainly use it, no doubt about that.

Sure you have some Protester thugs and you have some Police thugs, when the two get in each others face, that usually how it starts :)
Your right it was luck, Apparently, in one case, a couple of rioters were 'kind enough' to go up in to the flats above a burning shop to bang on peoples doors - to warn them of the fire.
Thats something i guess.
But yeah, the Riots last year were not political, it was just opportunistic mayhem.

[Aramike]

This just illustrates the insidious nature of the entitlement mentality. People who get something for nothing are nearly uncontrollable when that something is taken away because it cannot be afforded.

Look what happened in my home state when teachers were merely forced to chip in a little bit and not have more rights than the rest of the middle-class - they went ballistic.

The entitlement mentality is the most destructive force in a societal construct. Instead of sacrificing something to make ends meet, people on the dole demand, often violently, that the actual producers of their largesse work and produce just a bit more. Unreal.

[redsocialist]

lol

[Blood_splat]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/give-a-man-a-gun-and-he-can-rob-a-bank.jpg

[redsocialist]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/give-a-man-a-gun-and-he-can-rob-a-bank.jpg

Great web photo

[STEED]

The IMF chief Christine Lagarde was accused of hypocrisy yesterday after it emerged that she pays no income tax – just days after blaming the Greeks for causing their financial peril by dodging their own bills.

The managing director of the International Monetary Fund is paid a salary of $467,940 (£298,675), automatically increased every year according to inflation. On top of that she receives an allowance of $83,760 – payable without "justification" – and additional expenses for entertainment, making her total package worth more than the amount received by US President Barack Obama according to reports last night.

Unlike Mr Obama, however, she does not have to pay any tax on this substantial income because of her diplomatic status.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/anger-over-christine-lagardes-taxfree-salary-7801028.html

Bloody Heck this women is a perfect example of a two face cow.

[Jimbuna]

I DEMAND DIPLOMATIC STATUS!! :o

[TarJak]

You've got to hand it to the fat cats. They know how to feather their own nests. The hypocrisy is astounding.

[BossMark]

One rule for THEM and one rule for us :yep:

[Skybird]

Lagarde did not make the rules saying that international offices like the one she holds are not object to income tax payments.

Latest assessment on tax dodging in Greece says that 40% of Greek people avoid paying income tax. 20-25% pay their taxess - since years and decades! - in kind. The so-called "state" has neither the administrativ power nor the needed registers to control and en force tax payments. The rich elites have betrayed their people and fleed the country with their capital. All parties now again campaign with promising payments and benefits to the people that everybody should know they cannot pay for, because Greece won't get the money to afford that.

It seems to me that many people still have not heared the starting shot. The EU does not even threaten Greece anymore, and Italy and Spain already are higher on the crisis management agenda. This should make Greece think. Instead - it starts to raise steeper demands than before, especially this left egoist who is in the headlines all day on.

I liked the defence of Lagarde when she was challenged over her comments for lacking discipline and tax morale in Greece. It was sober, it was healthy reason, it was straight. Greece is in a bad situation, no doubt. But Greeks finally have to understand that they themselves have brought them there, by the failures of the past 3-4 years as well as the past decades. And in the end, the whole historical construction of this attempted, I would even say: failed state, brought them there. Considering the weak basis on which they based, it maybe was not clever to just pretend that they would be a state like any other adminstration in Europe by just acting "as if" without having the administrational, traditional and economical basis to run a state, not to mention to be a sovereign state. Sovereignity does not fall from the sky. It must be won and then maintained. Maybe Greece, in its history orf resistence against the Ottomans, won the right to one day become a sovereing state, yes. But it never assured the needs for maintaining it, at no point in modern history.

And I do not see where this should come from now or in the forseeable future. For europe, it will always just be a bucket without bottom, like it has been for decades and centuries for those Western powers who maintained it because it was in a needed strategic geographic position. With the end of the cold war, the geography no longer is a trump card to play - and Greece failed on trying to develope alternatives to that. The collapse now is the result, and I see it as inevitable. Because it never was a sovereign, survivable state in the first, was always a massively subsidised entity maintained by foreign powers that now no longer are there.

Bad for the people. But the brutal truth becomes not less harsh by not speaking it out.

[Jimbuna]

I agree...Greece will not be a part of the Euro by the end of the year at the latest.

[gimpy117]

honestly, People like this woman in my mind are part of the new Bourgeoisie, At the expensive of maybe sounding a little like Marx, they don't really do anything near what their pay scale is. This Lady gets all this cash, and we just avoided (or maybe are still on the verge) of a total meltdown of the global economy...while these people still make sick amounts of money, yet helped cause it all.

If it would have been us little guys running the show, we'd all be fired and told where to shove it for our mistakes...but unfortunately the kind of power that come's with a no justification needed expense account is hard to overcome.

But then again, I don't think it's an isolated problem...is just the fact that at the end of the day money talks...and it talks loud. Think of all the rich who get away with stuff just because they are rich and have a good accountant and lawyer.

[Jimbuna]

Euro will sort themselves out...

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/political-pictures-orca-summit.jpg

[STEED]

Are the G8..

Great food
Great Drink
Great seats
Great time
Great chat
Great round of slapping each other on the backs, didn't we do well

Answer: Kick the can down the road...Solved nothing.

Lets do this again soon at the next G meeting.

[Skybird]

Heads on speers, put on display in every town's market place.

Medieval clergy and selfish aristocracy of past centuries could take lessons from corrupt and incompetent Europe today.

The dogma of eternal growth is what has sealed our doom. Sustainability should have been the key criterion deciding everything else. What we choosed for, was craving for more instead.

We are where we deserve to be. I see no longtermed rescue for us. Only collapse, and an evolutional dead end, because I do not think we will see a sudden jump in our ethical evolution. There is a 50.000 year gap between our softwar and our hardware.

P.S. Sorry, but somoebody had to lift the mood again, I think.

[STEED]

***8216;Serious possibility***8217; Cyprus may need EU bailout

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/05/218792.html


Spain's Bailout Refusal Is 'Kamikaze Politics'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/spanish-bailout-refusal-is-no-longer-tenable-say-commentators-a-837318.html

Madrid hopes to get around bailout conditions with direct aid to its banks

Why? Banks are all the same..Another word for rough file ending in s.

[TarJak]

You could always buy into Australia's 4.3% GDP growth. http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumers-and-mining-fuel-growth-20120606-1zwqt.html

Oh wait... you're all broke.:03:

Not that I'm too keen on how our economy will be effected by the mess your mob are making over there.

[STEED]

You could always buy into Australia's 4.3% GDP growth. http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumers-and-mining-fuel-growth-20120606-1zwqt.html

Oh wait... you're all broke.:03:

Not that I'm too keen on how our economy will be effected by the mess your mob are making over there.

Your be alright if you side with China to take over the world.

[TarJak]

Your be alright if you side with China to take over the world.

No doubt about that. However their domination is based on a house of cards. They released some more stimulus http://www.smh.com.au/business/chinas-fix-dont-mention-the-stimulus-package-20120530-1zjg8.html

The first round from 2009 has run out and they are printing more money to fuel their growth. The whole mess will fall in time.

I'm preparing for when they decide they can't pay for the raw materials and come get them by force. I've got my loincloth and a spade so I'm ready for slave labour in "their" mines in Western Australia.:nope:

[JU_88]

Are the G8..

Great food
Great Drink
Great seats
Great time
Great chat
Great round of slapping each other on the backs, didn't we do well

Answer: Kick the can down the road...Solved nothing.

Lets do this again soon at the next G meeting.

Yup thats pretty much sums it up. :yeah:
the sad part is that they are trying to untangle a mess, that they could have actually have avoided all together - had they tried to untangle it 10 years ago!
Our global economy is like a sophisticated peice of machinary that is held together with glue and operated by chimps.

[Rockstar]

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/6d665fe3.jpg

[STEED]

The first round from 2009 has run out and they are printing more money to fuel their growth. The whole mess will fall in time.



China is part of the 3rd currency war that is going on now with America & Europe since 2010. There is talk the best thing we all can do is dump paper money which are governments don't want us to do for the return to the gold & silver standard.

[JU_88]

China is part of the 3rd currency war that is going on now with America & Europe since 2010. There is talk the best thing we all can do is dump paper money which are governments don't want us to do for the return to the gold & silver standard.

Yes, and it does rather look like will try to push for an independant world central bank (like the frederal reserve on steriods), and if not a global currency, there will certainly be a new world reserve currency at the very least. It will be the biggest and probably the ugliest transfer of wealth in history. Cant say im looking forward to it :oops:

[TLAM Strike]

If the EU turned its governance over to Cetaceans they would no doubt be in far less trouble than they are in now.

[Skybird]

China is part of the 3rd currency war that is going on now with America & Europe since 2010. There is talk the best thing we all can do is dump paper money which are governments don't want us to do for the return to the gold & silver standard.
Both Germany and the US have had times in the past 100 years when the state enforced people to transfer private wealth to the state by declaring it illegal and crminal by the law to own gold. Police raided homes and searched for illegally owned gold "treasures".

When they want your wealth, they will find ways to get it. Wanted high inflation, high cold progression, devaluing, taxes, or simply laws ruling something. As long as you are not willing to declare civil war and starting to shoot at the other side while plenty and pleny of buddies are by your side, you always sit at the shorter end.

It's not as if the maths of redistrubuting wealth and shifting it from the many poor to the few rich and then to the bailout of the riches' institutions, is unknown. The math has been repeatedly demonstrated, the statistics speak a clear language. But many people do not believe it for ideological, political reasons, or they do ignore it because if they would not, they would need to draw consequences that bring them into conflict with their life plan of how to invest into a home, raising a family and enjoy watching the grandchildren playing in the garden. The Greek street battles we have seen short while ago, indicated how fast the relative peace can turn into violence. And what we have seen so far - was nothing compared to what is still to come: in most of Europe.

Always spending more than one earns. Always assuming there is unlimited resources of everything. Always assuming there could be unlimited growth, and no need for thinking in terms of sustainability instead. All this is the eternal cancer haunting mankind , a cancer that sooner or later seems to destroy every human civilisation there ever emerges, always. In the past, when civilisations fell, they were regional only, and when they fell, somewhere else somebody pick up the ball and continued to play. But today, economically and regarding the use of resources, there is only one civilisaiton, and it is global. If this one breaks apart, then there will be nothing left to start again.

But what do I hear from these people? "Growth! Spending Frenzy...! Consume more, and faster!"

We still have not heared the shot.

[JU_88]

there is only one civilisaiton, and it is global. If this one breaks apart, then there will be nothing left to start again.

If that turn out to be the case -and if history is anything to go by, then next part of the cycle is WOOORRR!!
Then there REALLY will be nothing left to start again, lets hope we are both wrong on that one.:damn:

[Oberon]

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/05/218792.html

I'm sure Turkey will be only too happy to 'bail them out'... :O:

[the_tyrant]

Are the G8..

Great food
Great Drink
Great seats
Great time
Great chat
Great round of slapping each other on the backs, didn't we do well

Answer: Kick the can down the road...Solved nothing.

Lets do this again soon at the next G meeting.


Still doesn't make it a great party though
not enough chicks

[Skybird]

Fits nicely earlier comments of mine:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-greek-writer-nikos-dimou-on-crisis-a-837024.html


In a SPIEGEL interview, Greek writer Nikos Dimou analyses the state of his country's psyche, describing the "deep fears that torment the Greek soul." He blames Greek politicians for the current crisis but insists the EU and Germany only have themselves to blame for the resentment that many Greeks feel.

Thirty-seven years ago, Nikos Dimou, who is now 76, wrote a book of aphorisms titled "The Misery of Being Greek," which was published in 1975. In the book, he wrote that a Greek does "everything he can to widen the divide between desire and reality."
(...)
SPIEGEL: Mr. Dimou, you have studied the Greek soul more thoroughly than almost anyone. One could say you've practically dissected it. How is the Greek soul doing right now?

Dimou: The prevailing feeling is one of uncertainty. Greeks no longer feel confident, which partly has to do with their history. They have certainly suffered a great deal. But uncertainty also leads to aggression. We Greeks love conspiracy theories -- they help to explain and substantiate our uncertainties. That's why we don't only think with our heads and our reason, but also with our emotions. You must remember, even in the ancient world, learned Egyptians referred to the Greeks as "children." But this immaturity also has a kind of beauty to it.

SPIEGEL: And you truly believe that Greece's history continues to determine your fellow Greeks' behavior to this day, in the current crisis?

Dimou: Yes, without a doubt. Modern Greeks will always suffer from knowing what the ancient Greeks accomplished, which we can neither forget nor surpass. My theory is that the Greeks suffered culture shock when they were catapulted from feudal conditions to modernity within the space of a few years in the 19th century. Being caught somewhere between east and west, ancient glory and present poverty, between orthodoxy and enlightenment, has left the Greeks with an identity problem. That's what makes them unsettled and uncertain to this day. They always feel under threat.

SPIEGEL: Does that mean Greeks never entirely arrived in Europe?

Dimou: Greeks weren't free for a long time. First they were part of a multinational empire that spoke many different languages. Then they lived under Turkish rule for 500 years. Then all of a sudden they had to become Europeans, importing all these institutions. The result is that, to this day, Greeks don't have a good relationship with their government.

(...)

[CaptainHaplo]

Just for a moment, I am curious.

Soros destroys the value of currency it is said.
He bets against the currency to make money.

So basically he is playing the "futures market" on a more global scale with various national currencies?

Does he convert his Euro's into another currency before the bottom falls out so he doesn't take the loss?

I am not discounting his actions, I am just questioning the process of how he protects his own monetary assets if they are tied to a currency he is out to gut.

Anyone know?

[Jimbuna]

I'm preparing for when they decide they can't pay for the raw materials and come get them by force. I've got my loincloth and a spade so I'm ready for slave labour in "their" mines in Western Australia.:nope:

LOL :DL

[STEED]

That will help the bailout. :shifty:

Spain Downgraded To BBB As Fitch Predicts Slump Through 2013

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-07/spain-downgraded-to-bbb-as-fitch-forecasts-slump-through-2013.html

[Jimbuna]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01641/cameronMerkel_1641139c.jpg
Things are looking better already :DL

[STEED]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01641/cameronMerkel_1641139c.jpg

Come here big boy I want to spank you and ride you.

[Jimbuna]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01641/cameronMerkel_1641139c.jpg

You won't be smiling when you realise what I've got in store for you tonight!!

[STEED]

No point farting around time to bail the honest Spanish banks out. :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

Si Senor :know:

[STEED]

Just one question, which ones?

Don't want to bailout El Crooko do we now.

[Jimbuna]

Surely the Banko El Chapparal Buna is the only real choice :03:

[STEED]

Is that the one who will open their books only to JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs who will give them a clean bill of health. :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

Depends how much they put in the palm of my hand :03:

[STEED]

Depends how much they put in the palm of my hand :03:

Trying to out bid JP Morgan & Goldman Sachs? :haha:

[STEED]

Roll over Dave, Obama wants in..

For election favour, Obama looks to Merkel, again

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/election-favour-obama-looks-merkel-again-201335007.html

[Jimbuna]

First Dave and now Barack...she's a very busy lady...I wonder how much she charges? :hmmm:

A t least now we know where all the German money is coming from :O:

[STEED]

Spain's Rajoy hails bank rescue as 'victory for euro

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18385634

You wait and see, they got you by the balls now.

[Jimbuna]

It just gets worse and worse :nope:

[BossMark]

It just gets worse and worse :nope:
And those two clowns Gideon and dodgy Dave think they can sort it out :har::har:

[Jimbuna]

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article136365.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/image-1-for-editorial-pics-21st-june-2011-gallery-308570433.jpg

[Oberon]

Saw this, thought of Skybird:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate-uk/2012/06/07/the-danger-of-dictating-to-germany/

[Jimbuna]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18385634

You wait and see, they got you by the balls now.

I'm betting my money on the Spanish to win Euro 2012 after yesterday.

Much like the Spanish themselves, who will also be betting my money since this weekend...

[STEED]

British gilts are in the red and the FTSE-100 is now sliding again, the gloss of Spain is over!

Time to kick that can down the road one more time.

[JU_88]

British gilts are in the red and the FTSE-100 is now sliding again, the gloss of Spain is over!

Time to kick that can down the road one more time.

Yes, but they are running out of road. Time to stock up on gold and Baked beans I guess. :shifty:

[STEED]

Yes, but they are running out of road. Time to stock up on gold and Baked beans I guess. :shifty:

Nah...plenty of Ponzi ideas out there to come our way and rip us off yet again.

Baked beans on toast...yummy. :DL

[JU_88]

Nah...plenty of Ponzi ideas out there to come our way and rip us off yet again.

Baked beans on toast...yummy. :DL

Oh for sure there is still time, the sky wont fall in just yet :O:, but I prefer to prepare for these things in advance. modest and sensible preparations that is, Im not about to move in to some remote mountain cave with only a sack of weat and an automatic rifle for company. :haha:
I think it will get pretty rough eventually, but i dont doubt that civilization will continue one way or another.

[STEED]

Just been reading a news item from Sky News that was posted 30 minutes ago and it was saying a good day on the stock market but I checked and its down! Makes me wonder if they have a clue what is going on. :haha:

[STEED]

Exclusive - Euro zone discussed capital controls if Greek exits euro - sources

European finance officials have discussed limiting the size of withdrawals from ATM machines

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-eu-floats-worst-case-plans-greek-euro-153143583--finance.html

Well there you have it people, there is not enough printed euro's in Europe. :haha:

[Skybird]

Saw this, thought of Skybird:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate-uk/2012/06/07/the-danger-of-dictating-to-germany/

There is anpother implication that in other countries is not realised that much, because of a German speciality: Germans are the most enthusiastic private savers amongst all Western nations, and where as in England and America for example traditonally stock papers are common as a way to save for pensions and higher age, in Germany that function has been traditionally filled by life insurrances. They play a far more important role for private life-long saving plans than anywhere else in the first world. But the interest niveau is such that the insurrers cannot produe any profits by them anymore, and so they have started to lose money due to the guaranteed higher interests of several millions of such old insurancies that were fixed years and decades ago - and now reach the time when the get payed out. Also, fonds investing on behalf of such insurrancies invest in the Eurozone and are heavily depending on them. If Germany would leave the Euro, or the Euro would explode into our faces - it would deliver a K.O. blow to the German social security system and easily could lead within days or weeks to violent conditions much worse than anything we have seen in Greece or elsewhere so far. At least German politicians are desperate, I am sure, because despite their obvious lies they know this - and other implications - very well, just have no exit solution and so just sit still, hold their breath and hope to win more time. BTW, I also do not have an idea for an exit solution. We are beyoind the point of where the thing can be repaired at affordable costs. I only can say that I prefer an end with terror to constantly increasing terror without end.

This Euro is like having been hit by a poisened spear with huge barbs, and the tip sits very close to the heart. It kills by poison if not being removed, and removing it would cut the heart and kill the victim immediately.

The benefit for Germany from trading with the Euro-"partners" often is exaggerated. Exports of the past three years depended more on oversea marketplaces, and that means quite a relativising of the usual cliam that the Euzro was a blessing for Germany. Calculations done by independent institutions not obeying political parties and lobby groups show that the overall effect of calculating the coasts versus the gains result in a balance with an almost zeroed net effect. Considering that this overestimated curfrecny was traded for destroying the D-Mark and the independen ce of the German Federal bank means that what Germany got delivered by the Euro was a major wounding. And as I argue since years: that was exactly what Mitterand wanted, probably also the British government and Bank of England.

A remarkable essay, Oberon, considering the author is no German internal critic, but an Englishman or American ( I don't know). When I scan the international press especially in Europe I have the very strong impression that the view of Germany being the giant that can bear all bills of the EU and has no internal risks and vulnerabilities, is dominating the international media. Der dukatenscheißende Goldesel der EU, so to speak. I ask who bails out Germany when it has collpased - and it will collapse, I am 80% sure. There is no bigger player in Europe than Germany. The social safety of future pensioners we have already destroyed (while Hollande in france has lowered the pension age for some people again - thank you France for letting us Germans work longer and harder to pay you lazy socialists for that luxury- we have just increased our pension age to 67 and it is expected that it will be pushed up to beyond 70 sooner or later). Our banking system is shaking and tottering. The additional guarantees for the Euro bailouts of the past two years alone equal a minimum of two national budgets, some calculations even say it is already beyiond the factor of 4. Our debts are mounting and are officially beyond 2.2 trillion, inofficially, when including future pensions for state employes of the present moment, it is in the range of 7-6 trillion.

When Germany collapses and social unrest, maybe civil war, reigns in the streets again - then the fun times are back in Europe!

The Euro is not needed to prevent europe falling back into national rivalry and hostility. The past three years have clearly shown that the Euro has right produced what it claims to prevent, and the national hostilities have grown since then. The good thing is that it saves all the potential aggressive energy. When it explodes, it blows erven more brutal at the EU as well, increaisdng the chances to destroy it and make room for a better form of national coordination. In the end, the EU fails due to its pedantic, surreal megalomania. I personally think that the EU is even more worthless and misconstructed than the UN, because the UN at least has not been given the tools and means to do damage. Everybody knows its just a freak show that has nop real powers (thankfully). But the EU has been given this power to damage Europe.

And it makes massive use of it since the end of the cold war.

[Jimbuna]

Time to withdraw my investments and drag the British banks down to the same levels as those in Spain :O:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8231/pinocchioij91.gif http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/9501/liarrv1ed9.gif

[JU_88]

Time to withdraw my investments and drag the British banks down to the same levels as those in Spain :O:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8231/pinocchioij91.gif http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/9501/liarrv1ed9.gif

While its inevitable that 'we will get ours', We got Mervins printing press which should allow us to 'kick the can' for little while longer than anyone using the single currency, I expect we will be one of the last ones to hit the dreaded reset button. These things can esculate very rapidly as we saw in 2008, but for now Europe is still in slow motion train wreck mode.
Im pretty sure we will see another round of counterfi.... (ahem) QE, before this month is up. :dead:

[mapuc]

This cartoon was in todays Financial Times

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff440/mapuc/168892_10150948087495750_1077785145_n.jpg

This pictures says more than thousand words.

Markus

[STEED]

This cartoon was in todays Financial Times

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff440/mapuc/168892_10150948087495750_1077785145_n.jpg

This pictures says more than thousand words.

Markus

^^^THIS?
German parties fail to resolve row over fiscal pact

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/german-parties-fail-resolve-row-over-fiscal-pact-122242393--finance.html

[JU_88]

This cartoon was in todays Financial Times

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff440/mapuc/168892_10150948087495750_1077785145_n.jpg

This pictures says more than thousand words.

Markus

A nice one for the history books :)

[mapuc]

When I saw this images I remembered all that Skybird have written about Germany and EU. How Greece accused Germany for not helping them and all the rest of EU that wants Germany to be the train that shall lift EU, while their just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

I'll wager she lifts the weight with a minimum of effort :O:

[JU_88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Csc99K3fPI

[Jimbuna]

^ The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth :yep:

[JU_88]

^ The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth :yep:

....So help us god :D

[Jimbuna]

....So help us god :D

Oh I think Europe is way beyond that now :)

[Oberon]

Panorama. Just watching this on iplayer, I wondered if there was a copy on the tubes and voila, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu_cYB60xFY

An interesting look so far at the problems faced in Greece, and an acknowledgement that not all Greeks blame Germany for their troubles.
Also, Jon Humphrys, who is awesome. :yep:

[Ducimus]

Interesting show. There's definately something to be learned by looking at Greece.

On a side note, this comic comes to mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fCsEER7t8

[Jimbuna]

Panorama. Just watching this on iplayer, I wondered if there was a copy on the tubes and voila, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu_cYB60xFY

An interesting look so far at the problems faced in Greece, and an acknowledgement that not all Greeks blame Germany for their troubles.
Also, Jon Humphrys, who is awesome. :yep:

Very interesting :yep:

[Gerald]

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/4058/6312414263124136.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/6312414263124136.jpg/)
With record unemployment and a third of Greeks pushed below the poverty line, there is strong resistance to further cuts.

Tens of thousands of people have gathered outside Greece's parliament as part of a day-long general strike to protest against new austerity measures.

The trade union-led action is the first since Greece's conservative-led coalition came to power in June.

The protest is against planned spending cuts of 11.5bn euros ($15bn; £9bn).

The savings are a pre-condition to Greece receiving its next tranche of bailout funds, without which the country could face bankruptcy in weeks.

Wednesday's strike has brought the whole country to a standstill, says the BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens, with doctors, teachers, tax workers, ferry operators and air traffic controllers all joining the protest.

It follows a series of demonstrations in Spain and Portugal, which are also facing stringent austerity measures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19724284


Note: 26 September 2012 Last updated at 10:45 GMT

[Gerald]

They have a hard time...

[Gerald]

http://imageshack.us/a/img59/3672/6312753363124403.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/6312753363124403.jpg/)

[Herr-Berbunch]

That reminds me, I've not seen convoy hunter around for a while - last activity on the 19th but he's not actually posted for many months. Hope he's ok.

[Jimbuna]

That reminds me, I've not seen convoy hunter around for a while - last activity on the 19th but he's not actually posted for many months. Hope he's ok.

He'll be fine...they breed em tough in those parts :cool:

[Oberon]

He'll be fine...they breed em tough in those parts :cool:

:yep:

The Greek people have been through a lot in the last century, they know how to survive, to keep their heads down whilst the rocks are flying.

[Gerald]

Greek finance minister Yannis Stournaras says the three parties in the country's governing coalition have reached a "basic agreement" on the austerity package for 2013-14.

The measures are likely to be presented to Greece's international lenders on Monday before going before parliament.

The cuts are necessary if Greece is to continue receiving bailout funds.

Earlier, Greece announced plans to sell most of its 34% stake in the gaming monopoly Opap.

Mr Stournaras said there were "very few details left to work out" on the austerity package.

The deal comes the day after 50,000 anti-austerity protesters took to the streets of Athens.The spending cuts are reported to be worth at least 11.5bn euros ($14.8bn; £9.1bn) and are a condition for Greece to receive the next 31bn-euro instalment of its international loans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19744114


Note: Update record, 27 September 2012 Last updated at 11:05 GMT

[Herr-Berbunch]

PM'd CH, he's fine just got a lot of work on. :yeah:

[Gerald]

PM'd CH, he's fine just got a lot of work on. :yeah: Good, :up:

[soopaman2]

I saw a pic of an officer on the ground on fire, from some jerk off throwing a molotov at him.

Take note of the wrong way to protest.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/Soopaman2/Greece.jpg

But being peaceful...This is what you get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIccco4PRRk

Note how threatening the students are being, I am with you guys, filthy scum had it coming, how dare they protest! America is infallible!

Maybe they should have thrown firebombs too. :hmmm:

[Gerald]

Unfortunately thrown both the one and the other, at certain demonstrations or riots, :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

:yep:

The Greek people have been through a lot in the last century, they know how to survive, to keep their heads down whilst the rocks are flying.

Rgr that.

[Jimbuna]

PM'd CH, he's fine just got a lot of work on. :yeah:

Told ya so :)

[the_tyrant]

What the hell can the protesters expect?

Their country has NO MORE money, how the hell can they expect welfare, pensions, etc when there is NO MORE money?

Protesting just increases police spending, further decreasing the amount of money the government has

[Jimbuna]

What the hell can the protesters expect?

Their country has NO MORE money, how the hell can they expect welfare, pensions, etc when there is NO MORE money?

Protesting just increases police spending, further decreasing the amount of money the government has

A bit of a vicious circle and nobody has an answer that will be welcomed by either side.

[soopaman2]

Telling people to "take thier medicine" when most of those people (just like most other people in the world) have no choice on the poisons their government fed them leading up to this, is unfair.

This makes it hard to justify the reaction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www

In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area ***8212; a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates ***8212; and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

Sadly it is the poor of Greece paying the price, not the pool tax evaders.

But being promised something, then having it taken, because your government stole it...

We can all identify with that.

[Jimbuna]

I remember looking on a site somewhere that showed ariel shots of pools and extent some people go to camouflage them....ingeneous, if I come across it again I'll post a link.

[Gerald]

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/59842862-greeks-hide-swimming-pools-income-in-rampant-tax-dodges.html

[Jimbuna]

Don't remember it being YouTube but it also linked there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wELSaDxkSY0

[Gerald]

Right, the same story,and link :)

[Jimbuna]

Cross post...I was searching.

[Gerald]

Easy happened.

[STEED]

Greece is a dead duck, game over..The troika of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank have carved up Greece like a Sunday roast.


Bailout looks even more likely for Spain, will they be next to be carved up? :hmmm:

[Gerald]

Greece is a dead duck, game over..The troika of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank have carved up Greece like a Sunday roast.


Bailout looks even more likely for Spain, will they be next to be carved up? :hmmm: Yes, Spain has major problems and just like Portugal also, :huh:

[Jimbuna]

Greece is a dead duck, game over..The troika of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank have carved up Greece like a Sunday roast.


Bailout looks even more likely for Spain, will they be next to be carved up? :hmmm:

Wondering if there'll only be Germany, France, Holland and a few others left in the end.

[Gerald]

About Spain,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19763756

[joea]

Telling people to "take thier medicine" when most of those people (just like most other people in the world) have no choice on the poisons their government fed them leading up to this, is unfair.

This makes it hard to justify the reaction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www



Sadly it is the poor of Greece paying the price, not the pool tax evaders.

But being promised something, then having it taken, because your government stole it...

We can all identify with that.

Yup the worst is what I read this morning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/28/greek-police-victims-neo-nazi

Bloody hell. :down:

[Skybird]

The political and rich elites in Greece and the ordinary people have always been at war with each other, the former establishing a corrupt because it helps them to suck money and evade taxes, the latter because some small cracker fall from the rich people's table for them to pick up. Just remember: from 2009 on, all Greek parties were more interested in playing their powergames and securing as much influence for themselves as possible, than they were to solve the issues killing society.

But since decades Greek people also are used to think that the bakshish culture when dealing with state offices, were very much okay: everybody got what he wanted, and a blown up state administration also seemed to promise an endless universe of easy jobs with guaranteed fees. That way, the Greek became the most oversized and upblown state administration in all Europe. And the current government just weeks ago had created even more jobs , 6000 I think, in public service sector.

Dear Greeks, stop living in the past, raise against the rich elites that betray you and have brought their wealth out of the country already, and raise against politicians as well. Save nobody, make short process of this stinking breed. More than any other country in Europe, you need a revolution, and rolling heads in the so-called elites of your society. Your state - never existed in a modern understanding, you now have to build it from scratch.

The EU just seems to have decided to pay another tranche of 31 billion. Money that will be forever lost. And that illustrates that all EU politicians are criminal liars and all their papers and promises, treaties and laws are worth a dog's #### . What was it the EU has told European tax payers regarding obligations Greece has to meet, and how many of such conditions have been ignored, and promises got broken?

Greek corrupt politicians would be stupid to stop acting like they do - they know that EUcrats will throw money after them, no matter what, and if all hell freezes over - the money still will be thrown at them. So why should they ever change when it all works so well and they get away with it? It has worked for them since over two thousand years this way!

Greek needs a revolution to overthrow the current state of things, and build the first Greek national state worth the name in a modern understanding of the term "national state". I really would argue that what Greek is today, historically is not a national state, but a cleptocracy by administrational design. But this would also mean a massive change to long-grown mentality, I assume. So be it. If it is a must, then it is a must.

The EU will not ever kick anyone out of the Euro. For a simple reason. Sooner or later this country would come to terms again one way or the other - and then by its own example would demonstrate that there is a life without the Euro and that one can even be successful while leaving the Euro. A demonstration the EU will move all heaven and hell to prevent at all cost, even if it destroys memberstates - net payers or net receivers alike. Successful examples of leaving the Euro, are strictly prohibited. There shall never be demonstrated that one can win back freedom and life from Brussel. Sentenced for life - without parole.

[Tribesman]

Dear Greeks, stop living in the past, raise against the rich elites that betray you and have brought their wealth out of the country already, and raise against politicians as well. Save nobody, make short process of this stinking breed. More than any other country in Europe, you need a revolution, and rolling heads in the so-called elites of your society. Your state - never existed in a modern understanding, you now have to build it from scratch.
Add in a rant about Turks and Skybird has just delivered Golden Dawns street corner neo-nazi thug speech.:doh:

[Jimbuna]

No revolution needed Sky....simply keep sending them your peoples savins and leave ours alone (what little we still have left anyway) :)

[Gerald]

^Good one!

[Jimbuna]

One tries one's best :smug:

[Gerald]

One tries one's best :smug: As usual, :)

[Jimbuna]

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img104/2807/icontennisyk3.gif

[Gerald]

It was a long time ago.....

[Jimbuna]

It carries on to this day...and six words.

[Gerald]

Only to day/night?

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19777114

[STEED]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19777114

Spain's debts to increase further next year

Well that is about as clear as a big breasted buxom lady walking down the street, you can't miss her. :o :haha:

[Gerald]

Well that is about as clear as a big breasted buxom lady walking down the street, you can't miss her. :o :haha: No one can, :O:

[STEED]

No one can, :O:

I should know...I saw one today...Corrrrr...cough. :har:

OK back to the thread.

[Gerald]

I should know...I saw one today...Corrrrr...cough. :har:

OK make to the thread. So u have date now...:D

[Jimbuna]

I should know...I saw one today...Corrrrr...cough. :har:

OK back to the thread.

Looks like the cost of my holiday Sangria and Cerveza is going to rise :o

[Gerald]

Looks like the cost of my holiday Sangria and Cerveza is going to rise :o Nice one, :arrgh!:

[Stealhead]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/2012103181110169706.html

[JU_88]

Indeed, Turkey is not a nation that sits by and takes any crap willingly. It sounds like they are within their right to retaliate. Syria has already tested their patience on a couple of occasions now. But still, I hope it doesnt blow out of proportion.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Indeed, Turkey is not a nation that sits by and takes any crap willingly. It sounds like they are within their right to retaliate. Syria has already tested their patience on a couple of occasions now. But still, I hope it doesnt blow out of proportion.I hope so too. As Turkey is NATO member (atleast in theory) conflict between Syria and Turkey would also be conflict between Syria and UK, Syria and USA and so on. Something I would like to avoid.

[JU_88]

I hope so too. As Turkey is NATO member (atleast in theory) conflict between Syria and Turkey would also be conflict between Syria and UK, Syria and USA and so on. Something I would like to avoid.

Militarily speaking, Turkey is quite a force to be reckoned with, I dont suppose they will even need to request any U.N assistance all that desperately.

[Oberon]

I'd be inclined to agree with Ju-88, Turkey is quite a formidable force on its own, and whilst it's bombing Syria it's not looking at Greece or Cyprus. I think it knows not to expect any help from NATO, but since Russia and China will be trying to put UN motions in place to sanction Turkey I'd wager that the UK and US will be quick to veto them, so Turkey knows we have their back in the UN, which is...well...where it matter least I guess. :haha:

It's certainly an interesting escalation...question is, will Iran decide to up the ante in its support to Syria if the Turkish go 'all in'?

EDIT: There's also a third point to this that many people have not touched on. The Kurds. Since the war has been raging in Syria, the Kurds have been quietly fortifying their areas, hoping that when the dust settles they can create their own autonomous region. This is an anathema to the Turks, and they would have to move in to disperse any Kurdish gathering in order to prevent arms shipments and organisation across the border. Just as they did in Iraq during the invasion. So, there's that...

[JU_88]

I'd be inclined to agree with Ju-88, Turkey is quite a formidable force on its own, and whilst it's bombing Syria it's not looking at Greece or Cyprus. I think it knows not to expect any help from NATO, but since Russia and China will be trying to put UN motions in place to sanction Turkey I'd wager that the UK and US will be quick to veto them, so Turkey knows we have their back in the UN, which is...well...where it matter least I guess. :haha:

It's certainly an interesting escalation...question is, will Iran decide to up the ante in its support to Syria if the Turkish go 'all in'?

Oh I dont think they are too worried about any shenanigans from the Greeks, they have enough on their plate as it is.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Militarily speaking, Turkey is quite a force to be reckoned with, I dont suppose they will even need to request any U.N assistance all that desperately.I understand. I don't mean anything related to UN but strictly NATO's own "attack against one, is attack against all" principle. If Turkey request NATO assistance can Western nations deny it without undermining whole idea of NATO? In other hand if USA and Co. agree then its "big evil America (and Western infidels) messing with others business" again.

EDIT: To clarify: I'm not thinking from military perspective but from PR one. What it looks like?

[JU_88]

I understand. I don't mean anything related to UN but strictly NATO's own "attack against one, is attack against all" principle. If Turkey request NATO assistance can Western nations deny it without undermining whole idea of NATO? In other hand if USA and Co. agree then its "big evil America (and Western infidels) messing with others business" again.

EDIT: To clarify: I'm not thinking from military perspective but from PR one. What it looks like?

True, I dont know, The impression I get of the U.S and UK is that with the exception of a few war mongering hard liners, they really, really dont want to get involved in Syria. (Cant say I blame them) If they do, I expect it will be with a great degree of reluctance, its especially complicated with the likes of Russia pushing the other way.

[Stealhead]

I hope so too. As Turkey is NATO member (atleast in theory) conflict between Syria and Turkey would also be conflict between Syria and UK, Syria and USA and so on. Something I would like to avoid.


Turkey is a member of NATO no theory to it they have been a member for some time.Turkey has been part of NATO since 1952.

Not sure why you have doubt about their standing. They are in on the missile defense shield.

[Oberon]

True, I dont know, The impression I get of the U.S and UK is that with the exception of a few war mongering hard liners, they really, really dont want to get involved in Syria. (Cant say I blame them) If they do, I expect it will be with a great degree of reluctance, its especially complicated with the likes of Russia pushing the other way.

In a situation like this I'd wager that the US/UK would put forward the theory that Turkey shot first, thus nullifying the NATO agreement. Alternatively, they will provide covert support to Turkey on the agreement that it will not call for public support from NATO.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Turkey is a member of NATO no theory to it they have been a member for some time.Turkey has been part of NATO since 1952.

Not sure why you have doubt about their standing.I don't have doubt whether Turkey is member or not but whether NATO members will respect request for military assistance in remotely possible case that Turkey request it.

[Jimbuna]

According to the news a few moments ago Turkey have not gone down the Article 5 route but down that of Article 4 which only invokes consultation between NATO members.

[Stealhead]

I don't have doubt whether Turkey is member or not but whether NATO members will respect request for military assistance in remotely possible case that Turkey request it.

According to CNN NATO said that they would if asked.

Only thing is if Turkey does go in how will Iran react to it?

[Karle94]

Greece won`t touch Turkey and vice versa, both are NATO members and if they do something, they`ll have hell to pay. Also, Greece can`t fund enough troops to do anything any way.

[August]

In a situation like this I'd wager that the US/UK would put forward the theory that Turkey shot first, thus nullifying the NATO agreement. Alternatively, they will provide covert support to Turkey on the agreement that it will not call for public support from NATO.

I'd think it would be kind of hard to claim that Turkey shot first when they're replying to a mortar attack that killed civilians.

[soopaman2]

Turkey does not need the UK or US help. They are actually quite competent military wise.

They just need to be left alone while they handle their business.:03:

[TLAM Strike]

Iranian and Russian "advisors" reported in Syria, a supposed sighting of an IRIAF F-5 and now the Turks fire shots across the border.

http://i45.tinypic.com/vdmyl3.gif

[Stealhead]

Turkey has a decent military but at the same time I have seen it in action while on TDY to Incirlik AB they have interesting methods.

In my experience with Turkish troops some are pretty good but some are pretty meh and seem to lack any military bearing at all. Not sure how strong their discipline is to be honest it depends on what they are fighting for and if they are for it or not.I heard in Korea that they liked to go out at night and infiltrate enemy lines and cut off communist heads but they wanted to that I am betting because communists are atheists and therefore infidels so they can be nasty if you inspire them.

They also fire warning shots at the ground between your legs as a rule rather than into the air sometimes they "miss" and that is against just some derp Turk getting too close to the base.

[TLAM Strike]

Turkey has a decent military but at the same time I have seen it in action while on TDY to Incirlik AB they have interesting methods.

They also fire warning shots at the ground between your legs as a rule rather than into the air sometimes they "miss" and that is against just some derp Turk getting too close to the base.

Yea I bet they were real nasty about defending Incirlik as that is where we stationed all the "special weapons" designated for their air force's use.

[soopaman2]

Just put them on a plane, and tell them they are invading Cyprus.

Motivation problem solved. ;)

[Oberon]

Iranian and Russian "advisors" reported in Syria, a supposed sighting of an IRIAF F-5 and now the Turks fire shots across the border.



I thought the Iranians didn't use their F-14s any more? :03:

And I'm pretty sure they don't have any Panthers either ;) ;)

[TLAM Strike]

I thought the Iranians didn't use their F-14s any more? :03:

Oh they use them every time the press cameras are rolling. :O:

[yubba]

You'd won't think anything was going on the way abc nightly news spun it, a couple of car bombs they say.:har::har::har::har: no mention of Turkey or shelling and now Turkey is calling on NATO under article 4 fox news radio 2000hrs.

[eddie]

Who cares yubba!!:har::har::har::har:

[Oberon]

Well said eddie :haha:

Anyway, it looks like Turkey's parliament has approved cross border operations if required by the government. So the ball has definitely started rolling, I doubt NATO will come into this in any military fashion but there will certainly be images from US spysats and ammunition from European/US factories readily on tap if Turkey requests it.

Now we wait and see how Iran and Russia react...

[Jimbuna]

Turkey have won the upper hand thus far but I don't think either side want a war because they are both currently attending to internal conflicts...even more so the Syrians.

Turkey will probably up their arms shipments to the FSA though.

[mapuc]

Neither Turkey nor Syria wants a war, but the situation is so tense.

The danger is, if one of the religious groups in Syria sends mortars and/or rockets into Turkey

These religious groups would gain more of a conflict between Turkey and Syria.

(Said by Steffen Jensen a danish Journalist and expert on the middle east)

Markus

[Cybermat47]

Personaly, I think that the Rebels in Syria have needed assistance from the outside world for a long time.
I don't have any doubt that they are determined, but the more assistance we give them, the less civilians have to die.
Also, if the US lends support, and stays to help rebuild Syria, it could mean that Al-Qaeda won't be able to establish a powerbase there, like they did in Lybia...

[Oberon]

Also, if the US lends support, and stays to help rebuild Syria, it could mean that Al-Qaeda won't be able to establish a powerbase there,

It worked well in Afghanistan and Iraq :yep:

[soopaman2]

It worked well in Afghanistan and Iraq :yep:


My hero Oberon! *swoons*

All I got from those messes was a trip to Arlington.

The people of those countries got even less.

But Xe, and Haliburton, arms manufacturers, Boeing etc, I am sure those job providers are doing well.

My mother isn't...

[Stealhead]

Yea I bet they were real nasty about defending Incirlik as that is where we stationed all the "special weapons" designated for their air force's use.

On US bases troops that want to sneak off base on the rare occasions where personal get restricted to base will find ways to sneak past the MP/SPs in turkey they where motivated to stay on base not by fellow Americans but the Turks and there was alot to entice a young man to want to go off base in Turkey.It was a fear of itchy trigger fingers.

At the same time there where Kurdish supporters in the towns some that liked Americans as people and some that did not(PKK) the ones that liked Americans where trying to draw our attention to the Kurdish plight but that was risky because that airman might go back and report the guy to the authorities thinking he was a PKK. Personally I think tat they where really just Turks that did not like the Turkish Government and they used PKK to get your attention.

Anyway the Peshmerga of Kurdistan are the good Kurds.

[Tribesman]

Anyway the Peshmerga of Kurdistan are the good Kurds. Which ones? the Iranian backed ones or the Syrian backed ones or the Israeli backed ones the American backed ones or the ones who were backed by Saddam?
Add in the interchangables and the overlaps and you get even more difficulty in finding which seperatists are the "good" Kurds.

[HunterICX]

Syria better watch out if the Turks decide to send this guy over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir9KqguJxPg

HunterICX

[Gerald]

(Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel will tell Greeks she wants to keep their country in the euro when she visits Athens this week, but she faces a hostile reception from a people worn down by years of austerity and recession.

Many Greeks blame Merkel, who has publicly chastised them for much of the past three years, for the nation's plight. Opponents, some of whom have caricatured her as a bullying Nazi, have promised protests on Tuesday during her first visit to Greece since the euro zone crisis erupted there in 2009.

"She does not come to support Greece, which her policies have brought to the brink. She comes to save the corrupt, disgraced and servile political system," said Alexis Tsipras, who leads the opposition Syriza alliance. "We will give her the welcome she deserves."

About 6,000 policemen will be deployed in the capital for her 6-hour visit, turning the city center into a no-go zone for protest marches planned by labor unions and opposition parties.

"We don't want her here," said Yannis Georgiou, 72, who has seen his pension cut by one third. "We will take to the streets against austerity and against the government. Maybe Merkel will hear something and see what we're going through."

Merkel's visit is a sign of Germany's support for the coalition government of Prime Minister Antonis Samaras as it struggles to agree new budget cuts with international lenders, overcome the objections of reluctant coalition partners and cope with rising public anger.

After toying with the idea of a Greek exit from the euro zone in the first half of 2012, Merkel has come full circle and decided the risks of the country leaving are too high, especially with a German election looming next year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/07/us-greece-germany-idUSBRE8960B020121007


Note: Sun Oct 7, 2012 1:25pm EDT

[STEED]

Greece is dead.

Spain take note..

[Jimbuna]

Greece is dead.

Spain take note..
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Mpd1ozuoa64/TAGWo0-PxII/AAAAAAAACJQ/b9BnDWsnZMA/s1600/House+of+Cards.jpg

[STEED]

Greece is now dead, this is what happens when you let crooks in to finish you off. Spain is on the cliff's edge and if that money bucket comes out the result could be a free fall. I feel sorry for the everyday Greek who had nothing to do with this dreadful situation they now have.

[Jimbuna]

All I can Google atm is the fact Germany are continuing to support Greece :hmm2:

[STEED]

Hmmm.....

[nikimcbee]

Greece is dead.

Spain take note..

I wonder if Hunter is building his bunker?:hmm2:

[soopaman2]

You think they will throw fire bombs at her?

They are kinda fond of them, might even be doing Europe a favor, god forbid, just saying.

I know that will be read the wrong way, I have a low opinion on Germany being the "King" in the fate of Europe, considering the history.

Banks are better than panzers.

[Penguin]

You think they will throw fire bombs at her?

They are kinda fond of them, might even be doing Europe a favor, god forbid, just saying.


The German "freedom of speech" :har: forbid me to give you an adequate answer. Just be assured, that Merkel is just as far away from the German working-class as Samaras is from the Greek one. Both German and Greek Joe Sixpacks understand that, so I see the protest as against the German/EU regime, not against the German people.
The party leader of the German socialists was criticized by our honorable government for attending the counter-protests in Greece - what a shameful thing to do: standing with the people who suffer under the cleptocracy.

[HunterICX]

I wonder if Hunter is building his bunker?:hmm2:

http://imageshack.us/a/img703/7227/39717462.jpg

HunterICX

[Herr-Berbunch]

I wonder if Hunter is building his bunker?:hmm2:

Not yet, that pic is a fake! But they are accepting donations for the Save HunterICX fund -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19892976 :03:

[Hottentot]

Swastika-waving protesters greet Merkel in Greece (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-10/protesters-greet-merkel-in-greece/4304372)

Originality is not exactly their forte, eh?

[Herr-Berbunch]

Swastika-waving protesters greet Merkel in Greece (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-10/protesters-greet-merkel-in-greece/4304372)

Originality is not exactly their forte, eh?

Eh? Last time it was the other way round. :hmmm:

[Hottentot]

Eh? Last time it was the other way round. :hmmm:

Swastika-waving Merkel greeted protesters in Germany?

[the_tyrant]

What the hell would this achieve?!

their country is OUT OF MONEY. Protesting will not make money appear out of thin air.

[Jimbuna]

Without another bailout Greece will run out of money come November.

[STEED]

Without another bailout Greece will run out of money come November.

They went bust long before the first bailout, Greece can never pay the money back.

Greece get out of the euro & EU & that goes for the UK and all the rest.

[Jimbuna]

They went bust long before the first bailout, Greece can never pay the money back.

Greece get out of the euro & EU & that goes for the UK and all the rest.

Whispers abound that ypor mate Dave is starting to consider a referendum :hmm2:

[STEED]

Whispers abound that ypor mate Dave is starting to consider a referendum :hmm2:

Your killing me jim...:har::har::har::har::har:

[Jimbuna]

Your killing me jim...:har::har::har::har::har:

Tis true I assure you....he must be getting a sense of reality :yep:

[Gerald]

* Dollar index holds near one-month high

* Euro likely to see range-trade between $1.2820 and $1.31

* Markets eye Greece talk with lenders, Spain bailout move

By Wanfeng Zhou

NEW YORK, Oct 10 (Reuters) - The euro edged higher against the dollar on Wednesday after a two-day decline, but uncertainty about whether debt-ridden Spain would ask for a bailout and Greece would get more money from its lenders could limit gains.

European Union leaders are scheduled to meet at the end of next week, with Spain expected to be a focus of discussion. Euro zone finance ministers delivered a united defense of Spain at a meeting this week, saying the country did not need a bailout, at least for now.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/markets-forex-idUSL1E8LAFGN20121010


Note: update record Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:44pm EDT

[Jimbuna]

Your killing me jim...:har::har::har::har::har:

http://cowanglobal.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/cameron-merkel-sarkozy.jpg
Merkel "If you don't give all your French Euros to the guy standing behind you, Dave and I reckon you'll lose your next election".

[Gerald]

(Reuters) - As Greece's privatization program resumes this month, nearly half a year behind schedule, at stake is not just the billions of euros it needs to raise, but the credibility of its commitment to reforms demanded by its creditors.

Greek politicians are under intense pressure at home to resist foreign calls to sell state assets on the cheap and raise fast cash to pay down government debt.

More challenging still will be efforts to use privatization as a tool to uproot corrupt business practices and restore foreign investors' confidence in Greece.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/11/us-greece-privatisation-idUSBRE89A13S20121011


Note: Update record,Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:10pm EDT

[STEED]

Tis true I assure you....he must be getting a sense of reality :yep:


No such thing, he's trolling for the swing voters vote. :shifty:

[Hawk66]

standing with the people who suffer under the cleptocracy.

As the saying goes: Every (democratic) nation gets the leaders, which they deserve...A lot of people need to have participated in this corrupt economic system...the same is true for some German regions too and almost all other countries have such sectors of 'guided economic incompetence and corrupted societies'. The difference in Greece it this sector was in fact the whole country.

Frankly (not referring to this thread), I also cannot hear the nonsense anymore that the EU is to blaim for every bull**** people, their leaders and the nations do (or not do). People should ask themselves how Europe would look like today if the EU would not be there (forgotten the first half of the 20th century ?).

It's the century of Asia and frankly they have earned it. Look at South Korea: In the beginning of the 60th's they were poor like hell...they got some funding from IWF, some military protection from the U.S and look what they've created in hard work - in spite of a very tense border situation, which is today as worse as the hottest periods in the height of the cold war at the inner-German border...

Also, in contrast to the West - and especially to some European countries- they had and have a master plan in what to invest and in what areas they wanna become leaders.

In most Western countries we talk about our banks, our finance system, our debts (but we happily create more), who gets what money (which we do not have anymore), wince about our incompetent leaders(which we have selected) and guilty are always others but never yourself.

Continue that one or more decades and China might buy the U.S and EU together...

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

As the saying goes: Every (democratic) nation gets the leaders, which they deserve...A lot of people need to have participated in this corrupt economic system...the same is true for some German regions too and almost all other countries have such sectors of 'guided economic incompetence and corrupted societies'. The difference in Greece it this sector was in fact the whole country.

Frankly (not referring to this thread), I also cannot hear the nonsense anymore that the EU is to blaim for every bull**** people, their leaders and the nations do (or not do). People should ask themselves how Europe would look like today if the EU would not be there (forgotten the first half of the 20th century ?).

It's the century of Asia and frankly they have earned it. Look at South Korea: In the beginning of the 60th's they were poor like hell...they got some funding from IWF, some military protection from the U.S and look what they've created in hard work - in spite of a very tense border situation, which is today as worse as the hottest periods in the height of the cold war at the inner-German border...

Also, in contrast to the West - and especially to some European countries- they had and have a master plan in what to invest and in what areas they wanna become leaders.

In most Western countries we talk about our banks, our finance system, our debts (but we happily create more), who gets what money (which we do not have anymore), wince about our incompetent leaders(which we have selected) and guilty are always others but never yourself.

Continue that one or more decades and China might buy the U.S and EU together...
^:up:

[Jimbuna]

No such thing, he's trolling for the swing voters vote. :shifty:

Could be right there :yep:

[soopaman2]

Kind of related, but slightly off topic... (My apologies)

What is Britains relation to the Euro, and its politics?

I am under the impression the Brits never totally commited to the Euro currency.

Making them foresight of the year award winners.

Currency is never a unifying factor for nations, nor should it be, your "New World Order Experiment" is failing, and god bless the queen, for raising up such smart people, must be that British Cynicism.:D


I wish failure on the Euro, not to poke ha ha at Europe, but because this NWO dream only makes interesting literature, and not economic prosperity. At least not in real life.

There is always a loser in economics. Something I wish people in the US would realize.

[Oberon]

We're half on the pot, half off it, depending on what government is in power at what time. We refrained from joining the Euro, although there was a lot of talk about it during the early Blair years IIRC.
Britain generally will co-operate with the EU to a point and then will just be bloody minded, usually meaning that we get left out of many of the big decisions. Meanwhile France and Germany get peeved because we're trying to dictate policy to them whilst only putting one foot in the boat, and not fully co-operating with them.
It may be our saving grace if the Euro does fold up, but it's not going to make us friends in Europe, which is a price I expect many in Britain would be willing to take at face value. I just hope that that is not something that bites us on the arse later.

[Jimbuna]

The overall unemployment rate in Greece has topped 25% and the level for young people is over 54% :o

I'm wondering if there is an end to the mess they appear to be in :hmm2:

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19922108


Note:Update record, 12 October 2012 Last updated at 16:30 GMT

[Gerald]

Mythologists might say Greece is navigating a treacherous course between Scylla and Charybdis, the twin perils that threatened to destroy the hero Odysseus.

More prosaically, we might say the debt-burdened country is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

To qualify for the next 31.5bn-euro (£26.6bn) tranche of its 130bn-euro bailout it needs to deepen its already drastic austerity measures.

With this aim, Prime Minister Antonis Samaras and Finance Minister Yannis Stournaras have just finalised their long-awaited debt reduction package worth 11.5bn euros, with another 2bn euros expected to come from tax revenue.

But even they admit this is unlikely to be enough.

Now they just need to get the plan past the fractious coalition government on Thursday, not to mention the troika of inspectors from the European Union, the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the European Central Bank (ECB), due in Athens on Sunday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19726263

Note: 26 September 2012 Last updated at 14:02 GMT

[yubba]

Don't sweat it man I do it all the time,, your only human. So, us folks in the states destine to follow Greece over the cliff.

[the_tyrant]

Unfortunately, all Greece can do is to cut everything.

Without money, they can't afford anything! Maybe they also have to sell some state owned industry to raise money

[Sailor Steve]

Would that be what's next for Greece ???
No, it's a perfectly valid phrase. A destination doesn't have to be physical. It can be economic, emotional, moral, and a host of other things.

[Catfish]

Hmm, Greece is one thing, but if the US really follow isn't this a sign that capitalism does not work in the long run as well ? :D
(only joking:03:)

[Oberon]

Right now, for the Greek people, it might be better to just stop now, end this before the Greek people become effective slaves to the economic machine with no rights to speak of.
Perhaps it would be better to focus on getting Greece through an exit from the Euro than to force it to keep agreeing to further and further cuts that are not only damaging what's left of its economy but the well being of its people.

It is a Catch-22, no matter which way Greece goes the ordinary Greek people are going to be the ones who suffer. :nope:

[Catfish]

Hmm the thing is since the introduction of the Euro, salaries in Germany have effectively been halved, prices thus effectively doubled - e.g. some 100 gram of bacon costed 3,99 DM before introduction of the Euro, afterwards they costed 3,99 Euro.
But the monthly income of, say, 3000 DM was then halved to 1500 Euros.

At the same time inflation struck, additionally. While electronic products like TVs were relatively 'cheap', daily costs rose badly. In Germany you are paying now 3,80 Euros for a loaf of bread, which is almost 8 DM !

While our government tells us "that there is no inflation", the daily price lists make those statements look like mythomania.
At the same time all kinds of public enterprises like railways, Telecom, power lines, Autobahn are all being sold by the government, and "privatized".
Also, the german reunification took around 500 billion Euros out of existing infrastructure by the german "Treuhand" (this word being a joke in itself), and just trickled somewhere - no company can remember what they did, with the money.

According to their logic this is much better because there is "competition", because prices would fall then. But indeed there is no competition at all, only monopolies raising the prices at their leisure. The remaining Petroleum compaanies do not compete, but tell each other which prices to raise, and when. Different brands raise the prices at the gas stations in a second. One litre of benzine fuel is now at 1 Euro 70 cents, and this is still cheaper than in Italy !

Banks do the same as they did before the crisis, they threatened the EU governments with either helping them in the crisis, or let the whole system go down - effective blackmailing, if you ask me.

They say we are bickereing at a high niveau, but every 4th person in Germany is now threatened with poverty, and the real (read: deviating from official) job situation is almost at 28 percent jobless, mirroring those statistics.

I really cannot see how capitalism with its privatization and growing monopolies alone will make things better here or in Europe, or get us out of this situation, and i have not mentioned the paying for other nations within the EU.
Well communism is obviously not the solution, so - what to do ?

I have nothing against helping Greece and other nations, but i cannot see an improvement of the overall situation, unless the whole economy gets rolling again. And it does not.

:-?

[yubba]

Hmm, Greece is one thing, but if the US really follow isn't this a sign that capitalism does not work in the long run as well ? :D
(only joking:03:)
This is a sign that crowney capitalism and crowney socalism doesn't work, as it stands, all these entitlelist have more to loose than I and I intend to do as little as possible to feed the beast, I believe no one is entitled to the fruits of my labor, if 10% is good enough for god then 5% should be good enough for this no account government:O:

[Catfish]

^ No they feel themselves certainly much higher than being only a divine inthronisation, thus the value added tax is now at 19 percent in Germany, and will be raised soon again.
Energy tax is 75 percent, b.t.w., for fuel.

Eat that US cheapos ! :D:O:

[Jimbuna]

Right now, for the Greek people, it might be better to just stop now, end this before the Greek people become effective slaves to the economic machine with no rights to speak of.
Perhaps it would be better to focus on getting Greece through an exit from the Euro than to force it to keep agreeing to further and further cuts that are not only damaging what's left of its economy but the well being of its people.

It is a Catch-22, no matter which way Greece goes the ordinary Greek people are going to be the ones who suffer. :nope:

Sums it up pretty well IMHO :yep:

[STEED]

Greece is history, as I said before...the troika of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank have picked it dry.

[Skybird]

Just revelaed - they needed even more over the next two years. 30 billion more to cover costs from just having agreed to give them a two year timeout from the previous austerity plan. :har:

But then, Greece will be saved, finally.

Really. Finally.

In two years at the latest.

Finally.

No further delays and bailouts.

Man, i said: "really".

Really "really" I mean.

I am not kidding.

Serious.

Really finally, serious.

Really "really" serious.

Definitely.

Put some trust into what I say.

Let'S define two years. Earth years, Neptune years? They say the way is the goal. So in two lightyears it will be! Only two lightyears separate us from Greek salvation and end of currency crisis.

That's not much, isn'T it? :D I mean: two lightyears! C'mon!

[Oberon]

Sums it up pretty well IMHO :yep:

I would not be entirely surprised to see another era of the Colonels or at the very least some form of 'government of national unity' backed by the army before the decade is out. Not a route I want to see Greece go down, but unless something amazing happens then there are some turbulent times ahead. We keep pushing the minute hand back by a minute per bailout but it's 23:59 and the second hand is ticking and every time the minute hand is pushed back things get harder and harder for their people. You can only push so much austerity on a populace before there is a major revolution, and civil disorder that not even the police can handle. So then the army is brought in, and they face the awkward decision of what side to take. :hmmm:

[Gerald]

Hard trials are expected, on cuts.

[Jimbuna]

I would not be entirely surprised to see another era of the Colonels or at the very least some form of 'government of national unity' backed by the army before the decade is out. Not a route I want to see Greece go down, but unless something amazing happens then there are some turbulent times ahead. We keep pushing the minute hand back by a minute per bailout but it's 23:59 and the second hand is ticking and every time the minute hand is pushed back things get harder and harder for their people. You can only push so much austerity on a populace before there is a major revolution, and civil disorder that not even the police can handle. So then the army is brought in, and they face the awkward decision of what side to take. :hmmm:

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see military rule either but what will they do about the austerity measures?

Break free of the shackles and go alone independantly, or continue in the same vain but with a tougher stance?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see military rule either but what will they do about the austerity measures?

Break free of the shackles and go alone independantly, or continue in the same vain but with a tougher stance?I would guess going independent. Accepting current path and complying with austerity demands will eventually mean cuts to military spending. I don't believe military would be ready for that especially as there is risk of revolt against their rule.

[Dread Knot]

The Greek Government's kick the can phrase; "We can't be out of money, there are still checks in the checkbook...." :wah:

Something tells me Greece may be staging it's own "Arab Spring" in the near future.

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20116548

Note: Update record, 28 October 2012 Last updated at 16:28 GMT

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20116548

Note: Update record, 28 October 2012 Last updated at 16:28 GMT

Indeed, stinks somewhat. :yep:

[Gerald]

Indeed, stinks somewhat. :yep: Ya bet,:doh:

[Oberon]

Ya bet,:doh:

Not the sort of message that the government needs to be sending the people...or the military.

[Gerald]

Not the sort of message that the government needs to be sending the people...or the military. Not only there are major economic problems, things like this may well develop into scandals and corruption grows at high.

[Jimbuna]

Not the sort of message that the government needs to be sending the people...or the military.

I can't see the government lasting all that much longer, the question is who will remove it, the people or the military?

[Gerald]

People might, :hmmm:

[Oberon]

People might, :hmmm:

Only if they have the backing of the military. They have the guns after all. :03:

[Gerald]

Only if they have the backing of the military. They have the guns after all. :03: Right,:yep: