Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged)

[Jimbuna]

Only if they have the backing of the military. They have the guns after all. :03:

I doubt it would become a joint effort somehow.

[Oberon]

I doubt it would become a joint effort somehow.

It might at face value, but there'd be no question who was really pulling the strings.

[Jimbuna]

It might at face value, but there'd be no question who was really pulling the strings.

My concern would be the military backing a small left wing faction and keeping them in power as puppets....something the Euro countries would have great problems with.

[Gerald]

(Reuters) - An overwhelming majority of Greek Socialist lawmakers have agreed to vote in favor of contested austerity reforms, party officials told Reuters on Tuesday, sharply increasing the odds of securing parliamentary approval for the measures.

Near-bankrupt Greece needs to push through spending cuts and tax measures worth 13.5 billion euros as well as a raft of reforms to appease EU and IMF lenders and secure bailout money needed to avoid running out of cash next month.

After months of negotiations on the austerity plan, Prime Minister Antonis Samaras announced on Tuesday that talks had been completed and implored his allies to back the package.

The prime minister's New Democracy party and the Socialist PASOK have between them 160 deputies, nine more than they need for an absolute majority in parliament.

But the third party in the coalition, Democratic Left, refuses to back the proposed new labor laws which could tempt other deputies to defect and leave the government facing an unpredictable vote in parliament next week.

However, the odds of parliamentary approval jumped after Socialist PASOK deputies agreed to back the reforms.

Tough situation.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/30/us-greece-austerity-idUSBRE89T1BI20121030


Note: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:42pm EDT

[STEED]

Pointless paying them money...

Here you go Greece...And now hand it back..:doh:

[Jimbuna]

As if things couldn't get any worse :hmm2:


Greece's draft budget for 2013 has forecast a deeper recession and worse debt problems than previously thought.
The economy is expected to shrink by 4.5% next year, and government debts to rise to 189% of economic output.



Parliament had been due to vote on a full package of reforms, including the budget, on Tuesday, but this has been delayed a week in light of the Democratic Left's opposition.
The budget includes 13.5bn euros ($17.4bn; £10.8bn) of cuts.
Greece's two main trade unions have called a 48-hour general strike on 6-7 November to protest against the austerity package.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20153875

[Gerald]

General strike,not good :doh:

[Jimbuna]

:salute:

[em2nought]

Can't Greece just sell some souvlaki franchises? We've got Taco Bell, surely we could have some "souvlaki r us".:D

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I'm afraid most important question on Greece's future is: Colonels or Generals?

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20163430

Note: Update record, 1 November 2012 Last updated at 09:11 GMT

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20163430

Imagine a world in which Greek authorities would show as much enthusiasm for catching and locking up tax evaders, financial gangster and corrupt office holders like they show enthusiasm for silencing a journalist how puts his finger into a wound and asks why for two years there had not been any investigation of a known lists of suspects so far, but the list just "disappeared".

One should not be surprised maybe. Greece does not even have a land registry office, but the highest number of employees working in public and state offices in the whole EU. How to tax land property, then? Some days ago a former Greek finance minister said that the EU should indeed not give money into the hands of the Greek government, but - if any more money gets payed out - it should be payed onto a blocked account only, like the German finance minister demanded. - Says a former Greek finance minister.

It'S all madness down there. Already the ancient Egyptians complained about that, so what does the EU expect to be able to make a difference there? It is going as chaotic like this since millenia.

[Jimbuna]

The names on the list are said to include politicians, businessmen and others


Probably why he's being prosecuted.

[Oberon]

It is getting out of control and it's not going to put any confidence in the Greek government, I can see the clock ticking on the lifespan of the current Greek coalition, I can't see it lasting more than a year before crumbling.
Sleeze and corruption is a problem in every political system, it's just become so obvious in Greece because of the current financial situation and the fact that all the eyes of the EU are situated firmly on Athens.
I fear for the people of Greece, I fear that revolution is in the air, and whilst it may clear out the old corrupt system, most revolutions have a habit of replacing one failed system with another system doomed to fail in time, and meanwhile it's the people that get caught in the crossfire.
Not good at all.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

A Greek journalist has been acquitted of breaching privacy for publishing the names of 2,000 suspected tax evaders.


Article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20172516)

Last updated: 1 November 2012 at 20:15 GMT

[Jimbuna]

Article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20172516)

Last updated: 1 November 2012 at 20:15 GMT

Yep and rightly so :sunny:

[Oberon]

:yep: Indeed so, in fact it was really the only option the government could take and not risk creating a figurehead for the protesters to rally around.
Last thing they need to do is create a martyr, that would kick the ball rolling faster than they could handle.

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20163430

:arrgh!:

[Skybird]

Wealthy Greeks still don't pay taxes:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/wealthy-greeks-still-dodging-taxes-despite-crisis-a-864703.html

Hopeless.

[Jimbuna]

Wealthy Greeks still don't pay taxes:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/wealthy-greeks-still-dodging-taxes-despite-crisis-a-864703.html

Hopeless.

Absolutely.

[Gerald]

(Reuters) - World shares and the euro steadied on Tuesday after an initial fall in reaction to France losing its top-notch credit rating from Moody's, with shares maintaining sharp gains from the previous day as investors await a deal for Greece.

Euro zone finance ministers and the International Monetary Fund meet later in the day and are expected to approve a plan to give Greece 44 billion euros ($56.4 billion) in aid by December 5, which is needed to stave off bankruptcy.

The likely resolution of the short-term funding problems for Greece and optimism that U.S. lawmakers would reach a deal to avert automatic tax hikes and spending cuts have been behind a sharp rally in riskier assets this week.



http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/us-markets-global-idUSBRE88901C20121120

Note: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:16am EST

[STEED]

Rating agency's are not worth a bar of soap between them all. Just lap dogs to the big boys who throw them the odd bone and tell them what to do.


GREECE AAA..after seeing their books! :o

And now they say yes it was a clear error. :har:

[STEED]

The clock is ticking as they try to think up more ponzi scams to prevent what is going to happen.

[Jimbuna]

The clock is ticking as they try to think up more ponzi scams to prevent what is going to happen.

Was undecided where to go on holiday next....Greece or Turkey.

Now I might even buy Greece :)

[STEED]

Was undecided where to go on holiday next....Greece or Turkey.

Now I might even buy Greece :)

Well they are selling off some of their island's I hear.

You could buy one and fill it with naked ladies.


In steps BossMark. :har:

[Jimbuna]

On a serious note...the Greek holidays aren't actually getting any cheaper :doh:

[Betonov]

Slovenia thought of buying a Greek island

The Maritime administration protested since buying a small island would cause chaos due to tripling our coastline

[Jimbuna]

Slovenia thought of buying a Greek island

The Maritime administration protested since buying a small island would cause chaos due to tripling our coastline

LOL :)

[Gerald]

The failure of eurozone ministers to reach a deal to give Greece its latest bailout payment threatens the whole bloc, leaders have said.

Following nearly 12 hours of talks in Brussels, the Eurogroup said it needed more time for technical work.

A long way to go....

Note: Update record 21 November 2012 Last updated at 11:07 GMT

[Takeda Shingen]

We should all buy Greek Islands. I hear they're going cheap now.

[Jimbuna]

We should all buy Greek Islands. I hear they're going cheap now.

Went to the travel agents today and I can assure you the cost of Greek holidays/vacations heven't dropped :)

[Takeda Shingen]

Went to the travel agents today and I can assure you the cost of Greek holidays/vacations heven't dropped :)

So you're saying the agencies are still doing it the Greek way?

[Jimbuna]

So you're saying the agencies are still doing it the Greek way?

Must be...so we chose Turkey instead :)

[Gerald]

Madeira is a flowering oasis,:sunny:

[Gerald]

Must be...so we chose Turkey instead :) The food goes to eat there,:)

[Jimbuna]

The food goes to eat there,:)

No idea what that means :nope:

[Gerald]

No idea what that means :nope: It means that the food is good, :)

[Jimbuna]

Ah, right...we will be fully inclusive so I hope that is the case.

[Gerald]

Ah, right...we will be fully inclusive so I hope that is the case.Are you going this month, you and Mrs.?

[Jimbuna]

Are you going this month, you and Mrs.?

Heavens no...not until June but we will be going to London to take in a few shows before then.

[Gerald]

Heavens no...not until June but we will be going to London to take in a few shows before then. That sounds nice,:yep:

[em2nought]

If only Greece had trademarked the Gyro and franchised. :D

[Gerald]

Well,it maybe be so :D

[the_tyrant]

Right now, they should really consider bankruptcy as an option. After all, what percentage of their spending is on debt service?

declare bankruptcy, and only spend what you can afford in the future

[Gerald]

and only spend what you can afford in the future Yes, it does not get much of the money,:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Right now, they should really consider bankruptcy as an option. After all, what percentage of their spending is on debt service?

declare bankruptcy, and only spend what you can afford in the future

Why bother when other countries are falling over themselves to give you money?

[Gerald]

Eurozone finance ministers are set to meet in Brussels later on Monday to discuss the next instalment of bailout money for debt-laden Greece.

Greece is due about 31bn euros ($40bn; £25bn) in bailout loans.

However, eurozone members fundamentally disagree on how to deal with Greece's vast debt mountain.

It will be the third such meeting in two weeks. Greece was supposed to get the money back in May, and is being kept afloat on emergency loans.

The meeting is aimed at reaching agreement among the 17 eurozone members about creating a plan to return Greece to financial health.

The European Union's economic and monetary affairs commissioner, Ollie Rehn, said it was vital a deal was struck for Greece.

In before Steed,:cool:

Note: 26 November 2012 Last updated at 11:05 GMT

[Gerald]

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q764/gasturbin/_64376444_1568604121.jpg

[Gerald]

Hard talks,:nope:

[Jimbuna]

Talking to yourself :)

[Gerald]

Talking to yourself :) Hmm...I speak for the whole world, :O:

[Jimbuna]

I'll get help...just try to hang on.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FebFCfbHpfM/R6UfYCyZJnI/AAAAAAAAAG4/Rv3p9pMCFBE/s400/crazy_man_straight_jacket_lg_wht.gif

[Gerald]

The men in the white shirts,:doh:

[Jimbuna]

Aye

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5926/police161.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/police161.gif/)

[Gerald]

Familiar light,:know: using one lamp, that can be removed when required,:03:

[Jimbuna]

Aye that.

[Gerald]

:salute:

[Jimbuna]

:salute:

[Gerald]

Talk about a thread that has been completely derailed,:o

[Jimbuna]

Talk about a thread that has been completely derailed,:o

Precisely :yep:

[Gerald]

They,agree deal on Greece bailout...:hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20506251

Note: Update record, 27 November 2012 Last updated at 09:51 GMT

[Skybird]

Early this year, the ECB gave away one trillion in credits to banks. These credits run for three years and will need to be payed back late 2014 and early 2015.

Now that will be fun.

[Jimbuna]

Early this year, the ECB gave away one trillion in credits to banks. These credits run for three years and will need to be payed back late 2014 and early 2015.

Now that will be fun.

Talk about paying on the 'never never' :o

[Gerald]

Right!

[Jimbuna]

Early this year, the ECB gave away one trillion in credits to banks. These credits run for three years and will need to be payed back late 2014 and early 2015.

Now that will be fun.

Actually I've been thinking and it sounds like being on a hamster wheel.

[Gerald]

Actually I've been thinking and it sounds like being on a hamster wheel. Ya, bet :haha:

[Jimbuna]

LOL

[Gerald]

Greece is perceived to have the most corrupt public sector of all 27 EU countries,http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

Worldwide, Denmark, Finland and New Zealand were seen as the least corrupt nations, while Afghanistan, North Korea and Somalia were perceived to be the most corrupt.

Transparency International's 2012 Corruption Perceptions Index gathered views on 176 countries worldwide.

Two-thirds scored below 50, with zero highly corrupt and 100 very clean.

The UK ranked 17th in the world, with a score of 74.

Greece's global ranking fell from 80th in 2011 to 94th in 2012, reflecting the country's continuing economic turmoil and widespread tax evasion.

Italy was ranked 72nd, below EU-newcomer Romania at 66 in the index.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20605869

That Greece would be in trouble in EU, was not entirely unexpected.


Note: 5 December 2012 Last updated at 10:28 GMT

[Dowly]

IN YOUR FACE SWEDEN!! :smug:

[Gerald]

Number four is not bad considering the political and fine commercial that exist, Finland,have €, and it can eventually worsen the situation.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Sounds like a new SATW strip coming up. :yeah:

[Gerald]

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q764/gasturbin/900x681xmoby-is-a-dickjpgpagespeediccrNEm6G9Cb.jpg

[Tribesman]

How did Ireland come in at#25?
Was someone bribed

[Gerald]

Bribed occur only at night when people sleep,:haha:

[Oberon]

Sounds like a new SATW strip coming up. :yeah:

Wish this news had come through a few months ago, could have suggested it to Humon when I met her. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

How did Ireland come in at#25?
Was someone bribed

I'd be inclined to question Pakistan #139 :)

[STEED]

Well Goldman Sachs is...COUGH!!!

[Gerald]

I'd be inclined to question Pakistan #139 :) How come,:salute:

[Jimbuna]

You need to ask a question like that your likely to get a silly answer.

[Gerald]

Let 'em come...how ridiculous it is are.

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that

[Gerald]

:sunny:

[Jimbuna]

:salute:

[Jimbuna]

Click on the graphics in the link to see the potential consequences should Greece leave the Eurozone...there are a lot more bad than good which I found a little surprising:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18074674

[STEED]

Well back in May this year this was said...

Citigroup’s Michael Saunders has informed clients that Greece WILL leave the eurozone on January 1st, 2013

http://www.silverdoctors.com/citigroup-boss-says-greece-will-leave-the-eurozone-on-january-1-2013%E2%80%B2-predicts-massive-wave-of-contagion-across-europe/

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2148843/Citigroup-predicts-Greece-leave-eurozone-New-Years-Day.html


We shall see. :hmmm:

My bet...fat chance as Goldman Sachs has got their grubby claws in Greece.

[Gerald]

Seventy years on, it is one of the many war crimes for which Greece is seeking compensation from Germany.

The Greek government has compiled a document demanding war reparations from Germany.High up in the Peloponnese, above the town of Kalavryta, Giorgos Dimopoulos reads through the names chiselled into a stone monument. At one, he stops. "Dimitrios Dimopoulos. My father." He pauses to catch his breath before continuing through the list of 498 men.

At this spot on 13 December 1943, one of the worst crimes of World War II took place: the massacre of the town's entire male population over the age of 12.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22470295

Note: 13 May 2013 Last updated at 00:26 GMT

[Skybird]

Left+communist party Syriza is projected to be currently just one seat away from an absolute majority.

That is bad new for all people who have believed the stupid babble of the past five years about state bonds being paid back and credits being paid back. Tsirpas, head of a party that almost by half is formed of radical communists, wants to once again steal from and betray creditors. I would not complain if these creditors were private actors who formed their own decisions regarding their own investments only - unfortunately we are talking about investments made by criminal and ruthless governments in other countries such as my own, who gamble away money for which ordinary people like myself have to come up for, or money that gets created by fresh credit and so hurts a whole rat tail of fiscal contexts that again will have the financial bill in the end paid not by decision makers, but the ordinary people. That starts with insurance business bleeding, and ends with new credits we have to take up and pay for in order to pay for the credit losses by the Greeks.

This article is by a Greek author, about his countrymen and their culture of denying reality. I had read him before repeatedly, and find it very interesting what he has to say about how and why the Greek are so insecure of themselves, have an obvious inferiority complex, and a serious identity problem. It already starts with realising that the modern Greece is far less West-oriented than usually is implied when mentioning "Europe" and "democracy". The identity forming factors have not been democracy or the renaissance, traditional Western values and views, but the orthodox church, and orthodox communism - both of which are hostile to the West.

LINK (https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fkultur%2Farticle13671 3336%2FDie-Griechen-wissen-nicht-wer-sie-sind.html)

[STEED]

With luck the first thing they will do is withdraw from the EU and get the ball rolling. :)

[Skybird]

With luck the first thing they will do is withdraw from the EU and get the ball rolling. :)

Would cost Germany alone 70 billions in securities. Follow-on costs from the disruption not counted. No, its better to throw more money after the illusions and hope that a miracle will happen all by itself. The fairy queen, maybe.

But thank God hasn't the central committee of the EU just recently declared that the Euro treaties do not allow withdrawal of members from the Euro, and that membership in the Euro-Union was signed to last forever, eternally?

:yep:

Yes, I am very sure that this was exactly what they said.

:88)

No wonder. If one country leaves the Euro and than would have the indecency to be su7ccessful and to recover, then this would prove that there is a life outside and beyond and after the Euro.

This evidence is to be prevented AT ALL COST. Even if that means to shatter nations to pieces instead. That's why they will not let Greece move away (and why they are so murderously infuriated about the Swiss). And that is why Tsirpas will get what he wants. And that is why the crisis will deepen. And his example will be copied. And reforms will be further prevented and delayed and eroded. And that is why it will become all worse.

[Oberon]

The German delegation is on its way to congratulate the new Greek government:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/42/8b/30428bf395a35d1b7db87f4ef55c5582.jpg

[mapuc]

Would cost Germany alone 70 billions in securities. Follow-on costs from the disruption not counted. No, its better to throw more money after the illusions and hope that a miracle will happen all by itself. The fairy queen, maybe.

But thank God hasn't the central committee of the EU just recently declared that the Euro treaties do not allow withdrawal of members from the Euro, and that membership in the Euro-Union was signed to last forever, eternally?

:yep:

Yes, I am very sure that this was exactly what they said.

:88)

No wonder. If one country leaves the Euro and than would have the indecency to be su7ccessful and to recover, then this would prove that there is a life outside and beyond and after the Euro.

This evidence is to be prevented AT ALL COST. Even if that means to shatter nations to pieces instead. That's why they will not let Greece move away (and why they are so murderously infuriated about the Swiss). And that is why Tsirpas will get what he wants. And that is why the crisis will deepen. And his example will be copied. And reforms will be further prevented and delayed and eroded. And that is why it will become all worse.


Now I wonder what would happen in the other EU-contries, if EU refuse Greece to leave the Union and the Euro?(a speculation)

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

So, Greece is turning commie. What's that mean for the Greek economy? How about their debt?

[Rockstar]

Fluoridation is next.
http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/humor/cigar3.jpg
.

[Oberon]

So, Greece is turning commie. What's that mean for the Greek economy? How about their debt?

For the average Greek person...probably not good things. People are tired of austerity, and things in Greece are pretty bleak. I think they hope that this new party will change that. I think there are three possibilities:

1) They don't change anything. The Troika continues because now that they're in power they suddenly realise the enormity of the problem and that their promises will actually only make things worse. The downside of this is that there will be fresh elections within a year as people demand change, and the far-right Golden Dawn (who polled third in the elections, up from fifth/sixth in 2012) might well be able to gain itself some power. Needless to say, this would be a bad thing. Thankfully it's also not likely to happen, SYRIZA isn't stupid and they know that they have to do something that's different from the current leadership, which brings us to...

2) A watered down bailout deal. The most likely of the three, Germany doesn't want Greece to leave the EU, so they're likely going to try and strike a deal of some sort. It'll be at great cost to Germany and will probably sink Merkel, but it'll keep Greece in, SYRIZA in power, and yet Merkel will still be able to take away a little something, a promise that Greece will pay something back.

3) Greece leaves the single currency, no more bailouts, no more Euro in Athens. It's possible that they might stay within the EU but leave the Euro, operating a little like the UK, or they might leave entirely. This is the second most likely scenario. In which case there will be somewhat of a shockwave across the Eurozone, no doubt UKIP will be applauding from the rooftops and Cameron will put his own spin on it, Merkel will be very unimpressed but powerless. Greece will feel emotionally bouyant, it will be a great propaganda coup...but four months down the line, the Greek economy will either be heading for stability, or sinking without a trace...I fear tha latter if I'm honest. Either which way, bad scenario for the average Greek citizen.

So, really, the best case scenario for the Greek citizen in the immediate to medium term future is Greece within the Eurozone but with a substantial deal in regards to its debts (although this in itself may trigger a wave of debt negotiations with Germanies other customers). Long term...well, that's a trickier one, on its own Greece could perhaps make a go of it, it wouldn't be easy at all, there will be at least a decade of economic misery and social unrest, but after that...depending on how the EU has coped in that decade, Greece could pull through quite well, or it could collapse into another civil war. Until a country leaves the EU that has already been intergrated and assimilated into it, there's simply no real way of knowing.

[em2nought]

So, Greece is turning commie. What's that mean for the Greek economy?

Tzatziki lines beside the bread lines. :D

[Jimbuna]

So, really, the best case scenario for the Greek citizen in the immediate to medium term future is Greece within the Eurozone but with a substantial deal in regards to its debts (although this in itself may trigger a wave of debt negotiations with Germanies other customers). Long term...well, that's a trickier one, on its own Greece could perhaps make a go of it, it wouldn't be easy at all, there will be at least a decade of economic misery and social unrest, but after that...depending on how the EU has coped in that decade, Greece could pull through quite well, or it could collapse into another civil war. Until a country leaves the EU that has already been intergrated and assimilated into it, there's simply no real way of knowing.

I'd agree with the above but whichever way it goes will see a weakening of Merkels status in not just the EU but also in the eyes of the German electorate. Germany have paid a huge price keeping Greece in the EU.

One further problem would then probably be a move by the French President Hollande trying to take over the mantle left by Merkel but without the financial clout behind him.

I doubt Greece would ever be trusted in financial terms by Europe or the western world for a many a year to come and the ultimate consequence would see the country falling on her knees, possibly never to recover, at least not in our lifetimes.

One probability (a hint of sarcasm here) will be cheap holidays for everyone, in a country that would have little to offer to the holidaymaker in ways of a viable tourism industry.

[Oberon]

I'd agree with the above but whichever way it goes will see a weakening of Merkels status in not just the EU but also in the eyes of the German electorate. Germany have paid a huge price keeping Greece in the EU.

One further problem would then probably be a move by the French President Hollande trying to take over the mantle left by Merkel but without the financial clout behind him.

I doubt Greece would ever be trusted in financial terms by Europe or the western world for a many a year to come and the ultimate consequence would see the country falling on her knees, possibly never to recover, at least not in our lifetimes.

One probability (a hint of sarcasm here) will be cheap holidays for everyone, in a country that would have little to offer to the holidaymaker in ways of a viable tourism industry.

Merkel is a difficult one to figure, the German electorate are not easy to predict. I honestly would have thought she wouldn't have survived last years election, but she does seem to be quite a strong lady and Germany tends to respect strength. Trouble is whether she has the willpower to use that strength against Greece trying to renegotiate the terms of the bailout, and whether she has the power behind her to enforce her will.
But yes, this isn't going to do her any favours, and it'll undermine her position in the Grand Coalition, but it's hard to say if there's any political power in Germany capable of doing anything against her. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Not just the Greek left, but the left throughout Europe are celebrtaing in Greece. That is a signal of things to come. Whjat it means? That the Euro will complete its journey to turn the EU into a collective "Schuldenhaftungsunion" (union of collective reponsibility for debts), which will ease the way for even more centralization of planning by the EU.

You have read Atlas Shrugged yourself, Neal. The Greek have retold another chapter from that. From that novel, you know what it means. Since I read it two years ago, the parallels to reality do not stop to stun me.

And I still claim that the Euro from all beginning on was planned and intended to become right this, and nothing else.

The lack of reforms in the political structures of Greece, are telling volumes. And the ordinary people still believes in self-glorifying and self-victimizing illusions. "Us proud and great Greeks! Oh look how bad the world treats us - they do not want to pay for us eternally! And this although we have so famous lifeless ruins collecting dust!"

Of course they have the right to want to live in decent living conditions. But they have no right to demand that others have to eternally pay for that - they have the right to change themselves and their country,. however, and to change things in such a way that wishes and claims, and what they can afford, meet in a balance.

But that is not what the political left wants, in Greece and elsewhere. The left always wants a free ride towards maximum claims, paid for by stealing from others. The question of what actually can be afforded, never gets asked by them.

The young Greeks are best advised to try to make their fortune outside Greece, like many Irish and Germans have done in the past when going to America - again, for reasons of poverty at home. Well-trained workers and academics are much wanted in other countries, namely Germany. If they wish, they can try to finance their home country from these other places by supporting those that left behind, or they can use the success they may have in other countries to return and then try to rebuild Greece. That are bitter choices and they are not for the fearful, but that is the state of things today, and they have nobody else to hold responsible for their situation than themselves, their excessive spending that theri nation's GDP never could afford in the past, and their unwillingness to send their corrupt political elites to hell and burn out their hilarious joke of a hopelessly overblown administrative bureaucracy, has brought them to this pass. It has been themselves, and nobody else. But as I see it, self-deception and illusions about the real reasons for their present mess have not shrunk in past seven years. And corrupted political elites support these follies because they feed their own powerinterest from them.

You can dream of better living conditions, and you have the right trying to work for achieving that. But you have no right to just make a claim for them, and then demanding others to finance it for you.

[Skybird]

Hm, Syriza goes together not with separate socialists or communist party, but the rightwingers... The probably only thing they share with them is their hostility towards the EU asnd the debt troika, so I think their choice of alliance indicates what they are going after, by priority. But except Syriza I have not learned that much about the other parties they have in Greece. More surprises to come?

Treaties yes or no, I hope the simply leave the Euro and get back the Drachme. The losses for Germany are losses that will become manifest anyway, whether with more delay at the cost of even higher final bills to settle, or not - in the Eurozone, the liability of banks towards private customers is almost 27 times as banks' saved and stored really assets, so one must wonder if it really makes any difference any more.

Think of it: the relation between sight deposites, and debt-based credit notes, is 1:27 in the Eurozone. Growing. - There is no escape from the devil exacting what is his.

[Oberon]

http://www.personal.psu.edu/afr3/blogs/siowfa12/ashleymbhs6.edublogs.org,%20Disney-Chicken-Little-Sky-Falling.jpg

[Betonov]

Zorba the Comrade

[STEED]

I rather wait and see than speculate. :)

[Tchocky]

My favourite part of Atlas Shrugged was the chapter headed "Financial crises within a sub-optimal currency union - Electoral consequences".

Rand really hit the nail on the head there.

There's some ceiling in my soup.

[Onkel Neal]

For the average Greek person...probably not good things. People are tired of austerity, and things in Greece are pretty bleak. I think they hope that this new party will change that. I think there are three possibilities:


Thanks for the analysis. :yeah: I have not been keeping current on these small countries and their economic issues, other than being aware they are deep in debt (why? Can nations have a gambling problem or a need brother in law...?) so I can see why they would vote for the Socialists, but will that fix the underlying issues?

[Skybird]

More big state, more state-run business, more money form Germany - this interview with their new finance minister (tba) shows where the journey is going to. And it is a fearsome outlook.

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.latribune.fr%2Factualites%2Feco nomie%2Finternational%2F20150120trib9ab84d48e%2Fla-grece-peut-forcer-l-europe-a-changer.html&edit-text=

Original text in French La Tribune:
http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/economie/international/20150120trib9ab84d48e/la-grece-peut-forcer-l-europe-a-changer.html


Whatever Germany does or says, it pays anyway. (...) The real deficit in Greece, it is a dignity deficit. It is because of this lack of dignity that we have accepted stupid measures and this has fueled a vicious cycle of indignity which itself maintains discontent, fear and resentment. All this is not good. We must regain our dignity, spirit, October 28, 1940 made us say "no" to the ultimatum of Mussolini's Italy. At this time, we do not have the means to say "no" and yet we did. (...) Greece may be a glimmer of opportunity. We are not large enough to change the world, but we can force Europe to change.He gives it all yet again a romantic, backwards-oriented touch. This cannot hide that "more state", "more socialism", cannot be the answer to anything. Also, it cannot hide that in the end he intends to plunder net payer nations of their taxes, no matter what catchy phrases and heroic words he dresses his intention into. What he intends, is not different from what Kirchner tried in Argentina - betraying creditors who were stupid enough (or were forced by states) to once again lend a de factor bankrupt Greece more money, doing that against all reason, and now refusing to pay back the money that Greece has gotten. This is robbery, plain and simple. The dubious role of the ECB - which I certainly do not love nor defend - does not change the basic facts.

I wonder what kind of drugs he is on.

Greeks. They already made the Romans curse. And before the Romans, the Egyptians. And them both were stronger, more reasonable actors on the historic stage, than the EU ever has been.

Let'S not distract by evading into discussions about history and dignity, Mr. Varoufakis. Let's talk money you took and now owe, let'S talk hard solid facts, let'S talk material reality in the resent. Lets talk the difference between daydreaming illusions - and dealing with reality.

[Schroeder]

Merkel is a difficult one to figure, the German electorate are not easy to predict. I honestly would have thought she wouldn't have survived last years election, but she does seem to be quite a strong lady and Germany tends to respect strength.
It's exactly the opposite. She isn't doing much and always let's her ministers do the dirty work. That's why nothing sticks to her because it was always someone else. She hasn't been doing much except continuing Gerhard Schröder's Agenda 2010 (for which he got thrown out of office by the German electorate btw.). The only thing she excels at is to eliminate competitors. All other big guys in the CDU who could have become a danger to her throne have politically vanished one after another (Merz, Oettinger, Stoiber, Wulff the list probably goes on) and the opposition has no charismatic person who could win over the people.:/\\!!

[mapuc]

Guess I have to wait and not speculate. To see if they want to leave and what the respond from EU will be.

Markus

[Oberon]

Thanks for the analysis. :yeah: I have not been keeping current on these small countries and their economic issues, other than being aware they are deep in debt (why? Can nations have a gambling problem or a need brother in law...?) so I can see why they would vote for the Socialists, but will that fix the underlying issues?

Sadly, I doubt it, the problems are too big for such an ideolistic party to solve, and what the people want, Greece really can't afford. The best they can hope for is a slight easing of the situation that they're in, but even that might be writing a cheque the Greek economy can't cash.
The BBC did a Panorama on the Greek crisis back in 2012, it's worth a watch, annoyingly only half of it is available on youtube so you have to go a little further afield to find it:
http://www.theresistanceseries.com/watch/HDXk77tLW7yubbYFKD2C

It gives a good insight into the situation on the ground, something that a lot of the news reports tend to overlook, focusing on select groups of people.

It's exactly the opposite. She isn't doing much and always let's her ministers do the dirty work. That's why nothing sticks to her because it was always someone else. She hasn't been doing much except continuing Gerhard Schröder's Agenda 2010 (for which he got thrown out of office by the German electorate btw.). The only thing she excels at is to eliminate competitors. All other big guys in the CDU who could have become a danger to her throne have politically vanished one after another (Merz, Oettinger, Stoiber, Wulff the list probably goes on) and the opposition has no charismatic person who could win over the people.:/\\!!

Ah, the teflon don type, I think that a lot of the western nations are suffering from the lack of charismatic people in opposition problem at the moment, the US has had that problem, the UK has that problem, and it always concerns me a bit that if someone from the outside was to come in with an agenda, who a truckload of charisma, then that person would start getting votes on that alone, just because he or she is different from the normal politician, no matter what their policies might be.
There's definitely a change in the air in Europe, it probably isn't the catastrophic collapse of the EU that Skybird predicts, but things are definitely going to change in the next decade or two, the question is for the worse or better. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

I think the Greeks will soon regret that they voted at all, or for Syriza.

Tsipris made so many promises that he must fail on most of them, necessarily. To fulfill them, Greece would need additionally 40 billion, calculations show. He will not get that money.

What counts more is that Tsipris probably already has lost. The stockmarkets seem to be completely unimpressed by the prosepct of a Grexit or stay within the Euro. Which can only mean: it is no longer relevant what Greece does. And that means that Tsipris has no threat card to play by which to blackmail the creditors.

I assume we will see in the coming days desperate attempts by him to raise the stakes - the stakes for the creditors, so that Greece becomes more relevant again, so that creditors must/will accept "compromises". And he probably will find that he has overestimated his cards there. His bluff will collapse.

The only real danger I see is that Greece's example encourages other countries and left politicians to start opposing the policy of structural reformation and austerity. A unification of the left opposition throughout the Euro zone could mean the end to any structural reforms - as far as these even are tried. France for example avoids realising the need for them to be really and seriously run until today. Then there is Italy. Spain.

[nikimcbee]

So, Greece is turning commie. What's that mean for the Greek economy? How about their debt?

Sounds like something out of the walking dead.:haha:

[nikimcbee]

Don't worry everybody, Tante Merkel has a deep check book and will gladly pay when it doesn't work out.

[em2nought]

Zorba the Comrade

Da! :D

[Penguin]

All you need to know about Tsipras:

http://i.imgur.com/FJ7uN.jpg

[Skybird]

A Greek historian on the eternal failure of the Greeks to come to terms with building a functional state that would not fail:

http://www.welt.de/geschichte/article136856931/Seit-120-Jahren-setzt-Griechenland-auf-Stagnation.html

English bot-translation:
LINK (https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fgeschichte%2Farticle1 36856931%2FSeit-120-Jahren-setzt-Griechenland-auf-Stagnation.html&edit-text=)

I would trace that inability even back into ancient times. Already ol' pharao had a song of despair to sing about what the Egyptians called "those little children". And the Romans at times were driven crazy by the grotesque bureaucracy and always blossoming corruption in their Greek province as well. Thats' why quite some educated Greek welcomed the Roman submission of Greece. Considering how influential the intellectual and cultural heritage of Greece became in the Roman empire, that era when they were ruled by Rome probably merant by far more benefits than evils for them. When Rome was gone, Greece entered an era of stagnation and non-existence for roughly two millenia.

News of today: Tsipras has announced that thousands of public officials, who were retired or fired in a bit to slightly reduce the by far biggest bureaucratic apparatus in any EU country, are being called back to their work, if one can call that stellar amount of institutional incompetence "work". That historical essay above sends a deja vu, it seems. He also announced that Greece opposes further EU sanctions against Russia. Both steps are meant to seek confrontation with Greek creditors, eh wants to get paid for concessions.

I say let the Greek do what they want, accept that all credit billions given so far are lost anyway, give no further money and let the Greek see where it leads them inside their precious proud tiny little country. They are not the navel of the universe. Not even of Europe. The owls in Athen may howl - but the caravan moves on. And the markets obviously have written off Greece anyway already. So why should us overwhelmingly powerfull wicked evil Fourth-Reich-Nazis even care...

[Tchocky]

Yeah! Screw Greece anyway!

Thankfully no European economies are either interlinked or dependent on international trade.

[Skybird]

Greece contributes less than 0.3% to the world's GDP, so their relevance today is somewhat limited, to put it friendly. Bangladesh contributes more to the global GDP. Markets have adopted to the chance for a Grexit, stockmarket indices reflect and communicate that. Athen has no threat potential anymore by which to blackmail the EU. Oh, the Greek stockmarket yesterday collapsed, in case you have not noticed it, in reaciton to Tsipra's announcement of suicidal plans. The two biggest banks of Greece, lost 30 and 40% of their value. That is the Tsipras magic. More to follow!

Let them have their own currency that they can value up and down like they want, and refer them to the long since overdue structural reforms. Best for them. Best for us. Best for all. At least the best of all bad scenarios possible, since good options we already have run out of many, many years ago.

But you can plunder your private savings, Tchocky, and transfer them over to Athens to contribute to their cause, if you feel so concerned. ;) Just keep your hands off other people's stack. When somebody of us wants to follow your example, we can decide and do so all by ourselves and do not need neither your assistance nor your command, thank you.

Hewre is Vaclav Klaus in an interview witrh German daily Die Welt, on the disaster of the Maastricht treaties and the Euro:

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/staatsverschuldung/vaclav-klaus-im-focus-online-interview-tschechiens-ex-praesident-rechnet-ab-der-euro-ist-die-groesste-tragoedie-europas_id_4435356.html


Die Diagnose ist sehr einfach: Die europäische Wirtschaft leidet unter einem Systemfehler. Man muss sich dieses Fehlers annehmen, anstatt auf Gipfelkonferenzen kosmetische Korrekturen zu beschließen. Die sind irrelevant. Ich werde oft gefragt, welche konkreten Maßnahmen ich empfehle. Diese Frage ist falsch. Es gibt keine richtigen Maßnahmen. Was wir brauchen, ist ein Paradigmenwechsel.
(...)
Europa braucht einen Systemwechsel, ähnlich wie die osteuropäischen Staaten vor 25 Jahren. Ich war damals Finanzminister und habe immer gesagt, dass wir keine Reformen brauchen. Reformen gab es gegen Ende des Kommunismus genug. Wir brauchten eine grundlegende Veränderung des Denkens und des Benehmens. Das gleiche gilt heute für die EU.
(...)
Vom europäischen Sozialismus hin zu einem echten Kapitalismus.
(...)
Je schneller Griechenland die Eurozone verlässt, desto besser für Griechenland. Ansonsten wird Griechenland jahrzehntelang in tragischen Situationen verharren. Die Finanztransfers, die wir aktuell sehen, sind keine Hilfen für Griechenland. Es sind Hilfen für die Weiterexistenz der Eurozone.
Der Euro ist die größte Tragödie Europas.
Translation:
"The diagnosis is simple. The European economy suffers from a (fundamental) system error. One has to adress this system error, instead of just doing some cosmetical corrections at summits. These are irrelevant. I often get asked what concrete measure I would recommend. The question is wrong. There are no right measures. What is needed, is a fundamental change in paradigms. (...) Europe needs a system chnage, comparable to the easteuropean states 25 years ago. Back then I was finance minister, and I always said that we did not need reforms. Reforms we had more than enough at the end of communism. We need a fundamental chnage in thinking and behaving. The same is true for the EU today. (...) From European socialism towards true capitalism.(...) The Euro is the biggest tragedy of Europe. (...) The sooner Greece leaves the Euro, the better it will be for Greece. Else it will stay deadlocked for decades in this tragic situation. The financial transfers we currently see, are no help for Greece. They are a help to secure the survival of the Euro.

[em2nought]

Greece should go for being the Thailand of Europe. They've got the food, they just need bar girls and massage parlors. Kathoey need not apply. :D

[Jimbuna]

Tsipras was quoted on UK news last night as confirming Greece will not default on her next loan repayment.

[Oberon]

Greece should go for being the Thailand of Europe. They've got the food, they just need bar girls and massage parlors. Kathoey need not apply. :D

They're going through governments at about the same rate as Thailand... :hmmm:

Wonder how long it'll be before the Greek military stages a coup... :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

They're going through governments at about the same rate as Thailand... :hmmm:

Wonder how long it'll be before the Greek military stages a coup... :hmmm:

Probably when they have sufficient funds to buy some ammo for their rifles.

[STEED]

Still not much going on where I am sitting. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Probably when they have sufficient funds to buy some ammo for their rifles.
And their tanks! :D Three or four years ago news made the round that they have the biggest battle tank fleet in NATO (after the US), but over half of their tanks had no ammo at that time. :har:

[Jimbuna]

And their tanks! :D Three or four years ago news made the round that they have the biggest battle tank fleet in NATO (after the US), but over half of their tanks had no ammo at that time. :har:

Looks like they have in the region of 1900 ranging from Leopards to M60A1's :o

Many of them are in storage but so are over half of the UK's 407 :)

[Skybird]

Last time I read about it, longer time ago, it was over 2400 tanks. :D Ah, unarmed hull targets, I mean. :haha:

They probably need to maintain virtual tank batallions so that old 80 year old grandfathers can still get listed as "active" officers and get their full Major's and Colonel's pay. Greek administration, you know. ;)

[Jimbuna]

Well someone has to have money to pay for the swimming pool tax :)

[Rockstar]

Having been bailed out, absolutley nothing to show or it, and no one else to turn too. It's time to divert the publics attention away from its own internal problems and blame someone else and look for more handouts.

Greece has 'moral obligation' to claim German WWII reparations: PM
http://news.yahoo.com/greece-moral-obligation-claim-german-wwii-reparations-pm-192051560.html;_ylt=AwrBJSBVvNdUcTUA4WzQtDMD

[Schroeder]

All of that was settled in the talks of 1990 for the German reunification. So it's a dud.:yawn:

[CaptainHaplo]

Germany should consider saying "Ok, we will just take that off the over 200 Billion we have lent you over the last few years. When will you be making payments on the rest of the money you now owe us?"

[nikimcbee]

I hear Tanke Merkel has pretty deep pockets.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm still reading up on this, this is a resource for teachers, it seems to explain the situation fairly well, and matches what I've read on wiki and the Economist
http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/explaining-the-greek-economic-crisis-with-students.shtml

[Onkel Neal]

The EU lives!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11426378/Greece-averts-bankruptcy-and-softens-austerity-in-last-ditch-deal.html

[Oberon]

Until the next crisis! :haha: Still, hopefully the Greek government can squeeze a bit of mileage out of this, although I honestly don't know how long they're going to be able to stay in power, they've just about got away with it this time...I don't think they'll be so lucky next time.
Then, of course, we have the upcoming elections in the UK, Spain and Portugal to look at, with anti-EU and anti-austerity parties on the rise. It's going to be an interesting political year for the EU, quite possibly the year that makes or breaks it really.

[Jimbuna]

Your links doesn't appear to be working Neal :hmmm:

Back on topic:

A dangerous precedent has now been set and other members such as Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland must be feeling like Greece has been given preferential traetment.

The Greek electorate are probably disappointed to see that their newly elected government have gone back on many of their pre-election promises regarding a harder line approach to the crisis.

The Greek debt is now over Euros 3 billion and without further austerity measures it is hard to envisage how they will be able to repay.

I fear bankruptcy may be the eventual outcome and a serious financial knock on effect for much of Europe, especially Germany.

[STEED]

Its all boring, we want action, bring down the EU. :03:

[Oberon]

Can we have...like...some industry and farms first? So we can feed ourselves after we bring down the EU? :timeout:

[Betonov]

Can we have...like...some industry and farms first? So we can feed ourselves after we bring down the EU? :timeout:

Gimme a visa and a nice fat paycheck and I'll feed you :03:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10712924_879962762016242_8854230660594753769_n.jpg ?oh=2ca8992417ab4e749b03744c321c4977&oe=55845305&__gda__=1431542668_4d3d86b2de25a3c405b4e021ca17b15 3

[STEED]

Can we have...like...some industry and farms first? So we can feed ourselves after we bring down the EU? :timeout:

What industry in the UK? Or whats left of it.

Hey we got so much food supermarkets are throwing out, yea that's bad.

EU gone, we get our industry back and fishing.

Stock up on bake beans. :)

[ikalugin]

I guess you don't have strategic reserves, where kilometers of tunnels are filled with canned beef and WW2 era winter clothing.

[STEED]

We got tons of..

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3460/3199861125_b58b6dedc6.jpg

Trouble is its dry and tasteless. :har:

This would enplane why our shop shelfs are full of it at discount prices.

[ikalugin]

I was talking about something like this:
http://veslo.ru/2006/snaraga/tushna/bereza2hot.jpg
Belorussians tend to make good canned beef.

By the way, what Is the size of Greek dept? Would be an interesting comparison against that of Ukraine.

[Onkel Neal]

Uh-oh :06:

Nikos Voutsis, the interior minister, said that "this money will not be given and is not there to be given". The Greek state is due to hand over the money in four instalments in June, as part of its obligations under its 2011 bail-out.



http://www.afr.com/markets/debt-markets/greece-unable-to-pay-11bn-imf-debt-20150524-gh8qf8

The downward spiral speeds up...

[Oberon]

Meh, they'll just renegotiate and push back the deadlines.

The US government isn't the only one that can kick the can down the road. :03:

[Jimbuna]

The downward spiral speeds up...

Careful you don't go starting a riot here :):03:

What I can't understand is why do the EU keep on extending the time period and amount of money owed?

Greece leaving the the EU or dropping the Euro would obviously have serious consequences for the EU initially but surely that is the only option remaining now.

My real sympathy lies with the Greeks, they are going to suffer because of the poor financial management of previous Greek governments.

[Schroeder]

My real sympathy lies with the Greeks, they are going to suffer because of the poor financial management of previous Greek governments.
They were the ones voting them in time and again. I don't know how true it is but talk has it that tax evasion and corruption are also very popular pastimes in Greece. So the problem wasn't just made by the politicians but by a large part of the population as well. I do not know the exact feared consequences of a "Grexit" but I think it's the only option to prevent a bottomless hole.

[Jimbuna]

They were the ones voting them in time and again. I don't know how true it is but talk has it that tax evasion and corruption are also very popular pastimes in Greece. So the problem wasn't just made by the politicians but by a large part of the population as well. I do not know the exact feared consequences of a "Grexit" but I think it's the only option to prevent a bottomless hole.

Yes, there must be a lot of contributing factors of a greater and lesser extent as to the root causes. My expectation is that Greece will default and drop the Euro then possibly leave the EU....my concern is what the effect will have not only on the European financial markets but ultimately on the Greek population themselves.

How do you build a stable foundation, a new beginning on a history of defaulting on loans and a surplus of unpaid bills? How do you borrow and who would be willing to lend for the building blocks to such a new beginning?

I think that should the EU wipe out/write off the debt there would still be a lack of willingless for anyone to assist financially again.

The Greeks must feel like they are between a rock and a hard place....much like the UK felt at the end of the last Labour governments term of office but probably a thousand or more times worse.

I sincerely hope it all ends well for them.

[Onkel Neal]

Careful you don't go starting a riot here :):03:

What I can't understand is why do the EU keep on extending the time period and amount of money owed?

Greece leaving the the EU or dropping the Euro would obviously have serious consequences for the EU initially but surely that is the only option remaining now.

My real sympathy lies with the Greeks, they are going to suffer because of the poor financial management of previous Greek governments.

Yeah, I'm not sure I understand, Greece cannot pay $1 billion to the EU, so they won't get $7 billion in bailout money...? Just get a payday loan, or something.

[Oberon]

Using game theory to try to explain Greeces plans:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33254857

Meanwhile, the Greek PM has announced that a referendum will take place on whether to accept the terms of the bailout plan presented.
This is a shrewd and smart move by Tsipras, it will give the people of Greece the choice of what direction they want to go in. If they refuse it, they will all share (well...mostly all) the consequences, and likewise if they accept it. Tsipras is giving the Greek people a voice and at the same time absolving himself of blame for what is going to happen after the vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33296839

[Jimbuna]

Using game theory to try to explain Greeces plans:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33254857

Meanwhile, the Greek PM has announced that a referendum will take place on whether to accept the terms of the bailout plan presented.
This is a shrewd and smart move by Tsipras, it will give the people of Greece the choice of what direction they want to go in. If they refuse it, they will all share (well...mostly all) the consequences, and likewise if they accept it. Tsipras is giving the Greek people a voice and at the same time absolving himself of blame for what is going to happen after the vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33296839

Spot on......Tsipras have more or less conned the Greek population by promising outcomes they knew were probably impossible to achieve.

The only way out now is for the return of the Drachma and hopefully an eventual return to normality but that will still be a painful experience initially seeing as how Greece will have no funds to purchase imports as well as an almost total dependency on tourism income.

One question though....what happens to the money owed if they leave the EU and drop the Euro?

Either way, I wish the Greek people well seeing as it was the mismanagement of successive Greek governments by enlarge that caused this situation.

[em2nought]

I'm hoping to get a lovely cliff side villa on Crete with a view overlooking the Mediterranean for the price of a Detroit hovel. :D Maybe I'll buy a gyro stand too!

[Torplexed]

Spot on......Tsipras have more or less conned the Greek population by promising outcomes they knew were probably impossible to achieve.



Tsipras can claim it was all Europe’s fault for not letting Greeks decide, when in fact, by calling the referendum, he made the decision for them.

Now, the ECB is ending emergency lending to Greek banks. Monday is expected to be a banking holiday in Greece, pending introduction of capital controls. It'll be a busy time for Greek bankcards today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33303105

Looks to be a tumultuous time ahead in the Eurozone.

[Oberon]

Yes, it's going to be a very...interesting...week for Greece and the finance ministers of the Eurozone.

[ikalugin]

I wonder if Putin would show up and save the day?

[Oberon]

I wonder if Putin would show up and save the day?

It's entirely possible, although whether Putin is able to assist with the resources he has available at this point in time is debatable. Russia has certainly made interested noises towards Greece though.

[Torplexed]

Did someone blink? The ECB suddenly reverses course:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33304674

The European Central Bank says it will maintain its emergency funding of Greek banks at the level agreed on Friday.
The ECB said (http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2015/html/pr150628.en.html) that it stood ready to review the decision on its Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA) and would work closely with the Bank of Greece.
BBC economics editor Robert Peston says the ECB is not providing any additional aid to Greece, which will lead to huge pressure for capital controls.
Greek banks depend on ELA, and cutting it could push Greece out of the euro.

[Betonov]

If NATO wants to destroy Russia, we should give them Greece.
In 10 years they'd drain Moscow

[Torplexed]

If NATO wants to destroy Russia, we should give them Greece.
In 10 years they'd drain Moscow



Yeah, I don't think Putin really wants a Greece-sized hole in the Russian wallet for the foreseeable future.

The Greeks sure enjoy playing the Fourth Reich card in portraying their economic plight in cartoons.


http://www.topontiki.gr/sites/default/files/styles/default/public/article/2015-06/skitso.jpg

[STEED]

Greece should have pulled out back in 2011/12 but no they had to dig the hole deeper.

[Jimbuna]

It could be argued Greece have mainly them selves to blaim:

Greece admitted yesterday that the budget figures it used to gain entry to the euro three years ago were fudged. The Finance Minister, George Alogoskoufis, said the true scale of Greece's budget deficit was massively understated enabling Athens to dip below the qualification bar and into the EU's single currency.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-admits-deficit-figures-were-fudged-to-secure-euro-entry-6157967.html

[Schroeder]

The Greeks sure enjoy playing the Fourth Reich card in portraying their economic plight in cartoons.

^This. And that's one more reason why I would cut all support for the ungrateful lot. First they lie their way into the Euro and then they mark us as Nazis after spending billions to get them back on track while they are unwilling to do real reforms. The writing was on the wall for years but they did nothing. Calling us Nazis now instead of accepting their own faults and doing everything they can to get out of the mess is just the final insult.

Besides, Greece isn't a big country. If a Grexit could have such horrific consequences for the whole of Europe and the Euro as is always said then one must ask the question whether the system in it's current state is maintainable. I say it isn't.

[Onkel Neal]

Euro sharply down as Greece crisis deepens, default looms
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/29/us-markets-forex-idUSKCN0P903C20150629

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras shocked European officials by instead calling for a referendum to be held on July 5 to ask Greek voters to decide on whether to accept the bailout terms which his government opposes. Athens also closed banks and imposed capital controls to prevent a collapse of its banks as anxious investors pulled out their cash.

So, what will the referendum prove? That the current govt cannot/will not deliver their promises?

It's about to get hairy.

[Torplexed]

It's about to get hairy.

Here come the Rumsfelian unknown unknowns. :huh:

http://cdn.historycommons.org/images/events/a999rumsfeld1976_2050081722-23538.jpg

[Betonov]

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11692538_10155753424500483_3881866489175667151_n.p ng?oh=9d9195e687052e9ff630ac063f86b5b7&oe=55E723D4


The sad thing is, how local bar politics also paint Germany as loan nazis and at the same breath complain about people they loaned money to themselves and never got back :doh:

[ikalugin]

I think that austerity did it, as it is not just hitting regular greeks, but is also counter productive.

[HunterICX]

Euro sharply down as Greece crisis deepens, default looms
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/29/us-markets-forex-idUSKCN0P903C20150629



So, what will the referendum prove? That the current govt cannot/will not deliver their promises?

It's about to get hairy.

It already stated that his governement opposes the terms of the bailout, but the people of Greece may not so he does what a democratic governement should do and let the people decide.

[Betonov]

I think that austerity did it, as it is not just hitting regular greeks, but is also counter productive.

Yes it is.
Less money to go around, less is ivested in development, less is spent and less taxes are paid so less money goes into dept repayment.

But the Greek first have to pass tax reforms and find a way to enforce tax collection. Something that is going to become imposible. The Greek national sport has become tax evasion long before those taxes were being spent by paying back Germany. Now add that the Greek are increasingly angry about the situation, they'll be even more reluctant to pay taxes.

And one more thing. The Greeks are not morons. If someone will tell them there's a way out of this mess by simply slowly improving the situation, they'll go along and maybe the debtors will have a more sympathetic ear because things will be moving.
But as in politics, point scoring by calling Germany a nazi state is the easy way to get yourself elected even if you have to burn the country to the ground.

[Onkel Neal]

It already stated that his governement opposes the terms of the bailout, but the people of Greece may not so he does what a democratic governement should do and let the people decide.

That's how California does it, legislation via referendum.

What I meant was, his govt was democratically elected by the people to manage this mess. He knows what his govt was elected to do. By throwing it back to the people in a referendum, he's punting.

[Oberon]

It's a big decision though, possibly the biggest that Greece has faced since the time of the Generals, in a way it's too big for even a democratically elected leadership to make by itself.

And it's clever political manoeuvring, of course.

[HunterICX]

What I meant was, his govt was democratically elected by the people to manage this mess. He knows what his govt was elected to do. By throwing it back to the people in a referendum, he's punting.

A Government's job is also to listen to the people is it not? Yes it's job is to manage the country but if a solution in a crisis requires to accept terms that affects you and the people around you on a daily basis wouldn't you prefer to have a say in it? I would.

The Swiss do this all the time with less serious but yet national wide decisions.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, let's see how this works out for them. The govt is advocating against.

[Jimbuna]

Tsipras have played a canny game of poker, knowing full well that what they were promising prior to the election was unachievable seeing as how the EU were holding a full house.

Now Tsipras bluff has been called and I fear decisions will be acted upon prior to the referendum (the default point tomorrow).

I was once heavily criticised on an area of the forum for predicting 'cheap holidays' but should the worst come to being, that is exactly what the Greeks will be looking for....an influx of foreign currency from holiday makers looking for a low cost vacation package.

My bottom line being....I feel for the Greek people who by en large had little to do with the predicament potentially facing them now.

My only criticism of the Germans is that they should have used any influence they had by having the money tap turned off long ago, thus saving the Greek people some of the burdon.

Can anyone answer the question I posed earlier? What happens to to outstanding debt should Greece default, drop out of the Euro and leave the EU?

[em2nought]

Man, I lived on Crete for a year almost thirty years ago. I bet if I went back there now that nothing much has changed since then. What the heck did they spend so much money on, or did it all just disappear like charity aid to Haiti? :nope:

...and if I was German they'd really be pi$$ing me off. Lots of German tourists there when I was there, and not a single paratrooper in sight.

[nikimcbee]

What happens to to outstanding debt should Greece default

I hear Tante Merkel has pretty deep pockets.

[Respenus]

Can anyone answer the question I posed earlier? What happens to to outstanding debt should Greece default, drop out of the Euro and leave the EU?

That very much depends on the legal basis on which the debt was obtained. If I remember correctly, a lot of Greece's private debt is based on British law, but I could be wrong. There was also an article recently on what would happen to such debt in case of default, but for the life of me, I cannot find it right now.

With the majority of the debt being to the EU Member States (the first bailout), the EFSF/ESM (second bailout) and the IMF, however, the debate on what happens to the debt turns very nasty and complicated. And that's not counting Greece's TARGET 2 obligations (I have no idea how precisely they work, just that they are an extra burden to other EZ states) and the Emergency Liquidity Assistance, which must also be kept on the ECB's books and is probably not (fully) covered by the collateral given by Greek banks.

To summarize, no one know exactly, but it still exists and if Greece ever wanted to return to the credit markets in the future, it would have to pay it off with its new currency that would lose its value by the minute.

[Jimbuna]

That very much depends on the legal basis on which the debt was obtained. If I remember correctly, a lot of Greece's private debt is based on British law, but I could be wrong. There was also an article recently on what would happen to such debt in case of default, but for the life of me, I cannot find it right now.

With the majority of the debt being to the EU Member States (the first bailout), the EFSF/ESM (second bailout) and the IMF, however, the debate on what happens to the debt turns very nasty and complicated. And that's not counting Greece's TARGET 2 obligations (I have no idea how precisely they work, just that they are an extra burden to other EZ states) and the Emergency Liquidity Assistance, which must also be kept on the ECB's books and is probably not (fully) covered by the collateral given by Greek banks.

To summarize, no one know exactly, but it still exists and if Greece ever wanted to return to the credit markets in the future, it would have to pay it off with its new currency that would lose its value by the minute.

I appreciate your response....I'm a little better informed now :know:

[Respenus]

For those interested, here's an article on EUobserver (https://euobserver.com/economic/129371) on how the IMF and the ECB may respond to Greece's non-payment of its debt to the IMF. The article, however, seems to be rather soft on what could/would happen, so things may get uglier than is suggested within.

@Jim,

I wish I could be of more help. I've been following the developments in Greece and gobbling up info and news like crazy and even I cannot fully make heads or tails of it all. So goodness knows what the ordinary citizen on the street can make of this latest debacle.

[Betonov]

So goodness knows what the ordinary citizen on the street can make of this latest debacle.

Listening to the talking heads that follow their own agendas.
Can't say we'd do the same.

[Onkel Neal]

I appreciate your response....I'm a little better informed now :know:


Yeah, same here.:shucks:

[Oberon]

I would be surprised if the referendum is a vote for yes, so I think that we have the real possibility of Grexit occurring within the month.
Next up is the Spanish general election occurring later this year, last I heard that Podemos has been doing well...


EDIT: One thing that has occurred to me, how is the Greek military these days? I don't ask for fear that there's going to be another tug of war over Cyprus, but ponderance whether, if the situation should deteriorate significantly within Greece following a Grexit, the Greek military might move in to restore order and form an emergency government. I don't think we're likely to see another Junta, the situation that lead to the '67 coup isn't applicable to 2015 Greece, but you do have to wonder how far Greece is going to fall when it exits before it starts to level off and head back up, and how far the military will let it go before they step in.

[em2nought]

So goes Puerto Rico http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/30/us-usa-puertorico-idUSKCN0P91QA20150630 :woot:

[ikalugin]

Has anyone looked into Russian default of 1998?

[Betonov]

Has anyone looked into Russian default of 1998?

Just read about it. But Greece doesn't have the energy production Russia has to jumpstart their economy. Early 2000's oil price rise boosted Russian economy.
Greece can only rely on Europe/US/Russia to get an economic boom so their tourists spent more :hmmm:

[Respenus]

A very good read on Der Spiegel International.

The Price of Five Years of Cowardice (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/spiegel-editorial-on-the-greek-referendum-shock-a-1041236.html)

[Jimbuna]

It's looking like a 'yes' vote in the referendum may bring Tsipras and his government down whilst a 'no' vote will plunge Greece into financial meltdown.

A rock and a hard place me thinks.

[Rockstar]

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/77369cb053b1da8f5951d216585cfea5.jpg

[Jimbuna]

This whole affair just gets sillier by the hour.

Greece has asked for a new bailout deal of Euro 29.1bn after stating it will default on the Eoro 1.6bn that is due to be paid this evening.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33325886

I'm beginning to think Tsipras is playing games with other peoples money....games that the Greek population will end up paying for.

I don't dismiss the possibility of the EU granting the bailout either...such is the madness surrounding this whole affair.

[nikimcbee]

This whole affair just gets sillier by the hour.

Greece has asked for a new bailout deal of Euro 29.1bn after stating it will default on the Eoro 1.6bn that is due to be paid this evening.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33325886

I'm beginning to think Tsipras is playing games with other peoples money....games that the Greek population will end up paying for.

I don't dismiss the possibility of the EU granting the bailout either...such is the madness surrounding this whole affair.


No problem, here's Tante Merkel's CC#.

[yubba]

Socalism is great till you run out of other peoples money to spend. Alot to be learned from this,, heck I had threads up about this years ago now you take notice. Puerto Rico seems to be going the way of Greece,,,http://www.marketwatch.com/story/puerto-rico-poses-bigger-threat-to-us-investors-than-greece-2015-06-30

[ikalugin]

By the way, what happened to SkyBird?

On topic - atleast Greece is not defaulting due to a (more or less fraudilent) securities scheme like Russia does now.

[Rockstar]

By the way, what happened to SkyBird?

On topic - atleast Greece is not defaulting due to a (more or less fraudilent) securities scheme like Russia does now.


Well, I think Sky's disappearance stems from his personal ideas about sending Islamists who refuse to assimilate back to the country they came from. Of course he is German so for having such ideas he was continually compared to Hitler and the Nazis by our resident crusaders.

If he was an American talking about doing that to Mexicans everyone would be OK with that and he would most likely still be here.

[Jimbuna]

The Greek proposal has been declined so now we wait until tonights deadline passes and what happens tomorrow is anyone's guess.

[Betonov]

Socalism is great till you run out of other peoples money to spend. Alot to be learned from this,, heck I had threads up about this years ago now you take notice. Puerto Rico seems to be going the way of Greece,,,http://www.marketwatch.com/story/puerto-rico-poses-bigger-threat-to-us-investors-than-greece-2015-06-30


I thought that Puerto Rico was the model of state* management according to fox reporters :hmmm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwpMtVg4SZg


*I think Puerto Rico is not a de juro state

[yubba]

I thought that Puerto Rico was the model of state* management according to fox reporters :hmmm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwpMtVg4SZg


*I think Puerto Rico is not a de juro state

I guess they lied.

[Oberon]

our resident crusaders.

I think that him agreeing with the words of Hitler in Mein Kampf probably didn't help his cause much.

But whatever, I'm beginning to tire of this 'crusading' lark, if people want a non-inclusive forum style then who am I to stop them?

[Jimbuna]

The wide and diverse viewpoints are what make GT what it is and long may it continue.

None of us are as wise as all of us.

[Betonov]

I guess they lied.

Mainstream from the mainstream media.

[mapuc]

The wide and diverse viewpoints are what make GT what it is and long may it continue.

None of us are as wise as all of us.

True-I only have the knowledge to balance my own budget.

Throughout of our time when we have had money we have had problems of any type.

I can't say which solution there is to all these upcoming problems I do hope some have it.

Markus

[Oberon]

Anyway, getting back to the matter at hand, the deadline has expired, and now we wait until the results of Sunday.

Meanwhile on twitter:


Dan Snow ‏@thehistoryguy 9 hours ago
Lots of clever tweets reminding us that Greeks invented economics & everything I just want to point out that the English invented football

[em2nought]

If only there was some other currency that all of Greece could convert to quickly and $crew over those that helped them out. Oh, there is bitcoin http://http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/technology/greece-bitcoin/ LOL

[ikalugin]

If greece goes bitcoin it would be pretty amasing.

[BossMark]

For all the Americans on here confused about Greece, please be aware that it's not a typo of grease, it is in fact a Country that exists in Europe.

[Torplexed]

For all the Americans on here confused about Greece, please be aware that it's not a typo of grease, it is in fact a Country that exists in Europe.

So, there is no hope of returning to Rydell High? :O:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00219/t2-brookes_64809706_219763b.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Tsipras has offered further concessions less than an hour ago but Angela Merkel, said no new bailout talks would be possible before Greece holds a referendum on Sunday, that will ask Greeks if they want to accept their creditors' proposals.

Looks like the EU are getting fed up with it all and are towing a unified hard line.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33345219

[Onkel Neal]

For all the Americans on here confused about Greece, please be aware that it's not a typo of grease, it is in fact a Country that exists in Europe.

Well, that puts things in a totally different light....er, ignore my previous opinions on the subject :doh:

Another good article about the issue
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/us-eurozone-greece-negotiations-specialr-idUSKCN0PB4QK20150701


PS: What exactly is "austerity"? Is there a set of rules or standards?

[August]

For all the Americans on here confused about Greece, please be aware that it's not a typo of grease, it is in fact a Country that exists in Europe.

Gee what would we poor illiterate Americans do without you British around to correct our potential spelling mistakes. :)

[yubba]

Gee what would we poor illiterate Americans do without you British around to correct our potential spelling mistakes. :)

control freaks to the end

[Oberon]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/330706/trololo-o.gif

[August]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/330706/trololo-o.gif

You Brits have funny haircuts! :haha:

[yubba]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/330706/trololo-o.gif

funny lookin Brit mime

[Betonov]

I think that guy's a Russian. But he could be a Soviet.

[Dowly]

I think that guy's a Russian. But he could be a Soviet.
Don't confuse them. :O:

[Oberon]

I think that guy's a Russian. But he could be a Soviet.

Technically he's a corpse now, but let's not complicate matters. :O:

[Jimbuna]

PS: What exactly is "austerity"? Is there a set of rules or standards?

The simplest answer I can think of is 'Strict Economy' and to what level of severity depends on each countries applied measures.

[Jimbuna]

Withe the Greek referendum due this Sunday I've a feeling Tsipras is running out of options, especially if the population go against his plea in a televised speech asking them to vote 'no'.

Either way, next week should give us all a much clearer picture as to which way this situation is going to end up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33314442

[Oberon]

Withe the Greek referendum due this Sunday I've a feeling Tsipras is running out of options, especially if the population go against his plea in a televised speech asking them to vote 'no'.

Either way, next week should give us all a much clearer picture as to which way this situation is going to end up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33314442

I think it's going to be closer than a lot of people think, there has been definitely an undercurrent of opposition to Tsipras which has grown a fair bit in recent weeks. His statement that he will resign with a 'Yes' vote is another shrewd political move, he doesn't want to be seen as the politician that was voted to power on a non-austerity platform and then was forced to implement austerity anyway.
I'll give the guy his dues, he sticks to his guns, more so than most western politicians.

[Schroeder]

I'll give the guy his dues, he sticks to his guns, more so than most western politicians.
He actually doesn't. At first he said he would stay in power and enforce the result of the election no matter which way it would go. Later then he said he would step down if he loses that election. According to Martin Schulz (president of the European parliament) he has been known to change his opinion quite often.

[Oberon]

He actually doesn't. At first he said he would stay in power and enforce the result of the election no matter which way it would go. Later then he said he would step down if he loses that election. According to Martin Schulz (president of the European parliament) he has been known to change his opinion quite often.

Huh, didn't know the former of that. Ah well, sticks him back into the normal politician category then.

Still, at least he isn't Golden Dawn. :yep:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c0e717975a44e6a69eb1f26347edc040/tumblr_np0lzoJqZR1rx0gnvo2_250.gif

[Jimbuna]

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is expected to address the rally for the "No" vote, opposing the terms.

EU leaders have warned that a "No" vote could see Greece leave the eurozone.

A poll published in Ethnos newspaper on Friday showed the two sides evenly split, with the "Yes" vote at 44.8% and the "No" vote at 43.4%. But the same poll showed 74% in favour of staying in the euro, with just 15% choosing a return to a national currency.

Despite the campaigning, however, there is still a chance the referendum may be suspended.
Greece's top court, the Council of State, is due to rule on the legality of Sunday's vote and whether it breaches the constitution.

Mr Tsipras has said that a strong "No" vote will help lead to a "better agreement" with creditors.
"If the 'Yes' vote wins the banks will open with a deal, which will not be viable, but if that is the decision of the Greek people, either from fear or from pressure, or choice, we will respect it," he said.
"If the 'No' vote wins, and the 'no' is stronger, I assure you, the very next day I will be in Brussels and a deal will be signed."

But EU leaders have warned that a "No" vote on Sunday may see Greece forced from the eurozone, something Mr Tsipras says he does not want to happen.
"If the Greeks will vote 'No' the Greek position will be dramatically weakened," said EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. Even with a "Yes" vote "we'll face difficult negotiations", he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33375653

What a mess :nope:

[Schroeder]

"If the 'No' vote wins, and the 'no' is stronger, I assure you, the very next day I will be in Brussels and a deal will be signed."
The only deal he'll sign on that day will be his signature on his return flight ticket. What a moron.

[Torplexed]

The only deal he'll sign on that day will be his signature on his return flight ticket. What a moron.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33378057

Greek PM Alexis Tsipras has called on voters to reject "blackmail" when they vote in a bailout referendum on Sunday.
In a short TV address, he insisted Greece's presence in the EU was not at stake and urged voters to reject the "sirens of scaremongering"The impression I get of Tsipras is that he is less interested in economic considerations than in political power. He is prepared to sacrifice the country for political theater in which he gets to play the starring role. Europe has hoped that, having the responsibility of government, Tsipras would morph from a radical into a moderate. That cannot happen because the guy relies on firebrand rhetoric to garner sufficient political support. The only good outcome I can see is the implosion of Syriza and the reconfiguration of political forces in Athens. The self-interested politicians we have seen in power up to now cannot make the decision that best serves the country.

The only sensible solution would be a government of national unity that unites the moderate forces of all parties. The Syriza party has no plan, there is no plan B and there isn't even a plan A. Decisions seem to come ad hoc and result from the shifting influence of its factions driven by events as they occur and informed by a misguided ideology. What Greece needs a strong government that can take the unpopular decisions needed to take the country out off the crisis. Papandreo was too weak, Samaras was too weak and Tsipras is apparently, too mad to take the right decisions.

[Oberon]

I think you've got the head of the nail there Torplexed, he is playing the '300' card, trying to portray Greece as standing up to the Persians. I think he's definitely dreaming if he thinks that a no vote is going to result in better terms. The EU is desperate, but not that desperate.

That being said, I view the potential collapse of Syriza with a small amount of alarm, because of the 3rd largest party in Greece, the fascist Golden Dawn. Syriza is trouble, Golden Dawn are dangerous. If the Greeks are forced to go to the election again because Syriza has failed, I fear that Golden Dawn are going to increase their share of the vote and get to either opposition or main party status.

[Jimbuna]

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over :doh:

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has accused Athens' creditors of "terrorism", the day before a referendum on an international bailout.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

[Torplexed]

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over :doh:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

Both him and Tsipras have threatened to resign in the event of a Yes vote. We'll see. But, they both probably have cozy jobs lined up if they do.

Tsipras could have been a strong leader if he had turned moderate. Perhaps he could still unite the moderate forces from other parties, even though his tactics have discredited him.

Greece isn't out off the woods yet by far, even with a Yes vote. :hmmm:

[Lionclaw]

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over :doh:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

Terrorism? :timeout: :-?

Well... If you don't pay back the loans, you should expect that you won't get any more money until you do.

And he is the Finance Minister? :doh:

[Schroeder]

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over :doh:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

Good. They can now cancel all future talks with us, after all nations don't negotiate with terrorists right? Let them deal with their problem on their own.

[Jimbuna]

Both him and Tsipras have threatened to resign in the event of a Yes vote. We'll see. But, they both probably have cozy jobs lined up if they do.

Tsipras could have been a strong leader if he had turned moderate. Perhaps he could still unite the moderate forces from other parties, even though his tactics have discredited him.

Greece isn't out off the woods yet by far, even with a Yes vote. :hmmm:

Terrorism? :timeout: :-?

Well... If you don't pay back the loans, you should expect that you won't get any more money until you do.

And he is the Finance Minister? :doh:

Good. They can now cancel all future talks with us, after all nations don't negotiate with terrorists right? Let them deal with their problem on their own.

Aye, sad (for the Greek people) but true :yep:

[Oberon]

And now for something completely different:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/04/a-hilarious-monty-python-sketch-explains-why-greece-is-in-a-huge-crisis/

[Torplexed]

And now for something completely different:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/04/a-hilarious-monty-python-sketch-explains-why-greece-is-in-a-huge-crisis/

(It's worth noting that the Greeks have tried to appropriate the German philosopher Immanuel Kant, employing Kant's writings about doing what's right to argue against paying back unfair debts.)
I don't think that approach will cut any ice with Merkel, but it's worth a shot. :)

http://pyxis.homestead.com/greece-kant.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

even if the vote is "yes" or "no" the settlement of the debt talks will continue on.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07/05/greece-votes-on-high-stakes-bailout-referendum-with-opinion-polls-showing/

Yale University political science professor Stathis Kalyvas said the Greek government will face daunting challenges no matter which way the vote goes.
If the "no" side wins, Kalyvas said other eurozone countries could refuse to negotiate a better deal for Greece because of their distrust of Tsipras.
A "yes" win won't mean a road to the negotiating table strewn with roses either, but would likely usher in a new government with a shot at negotiating an improved deal, Kalyvas said.
The Greeks are tough people ... I think they will do the right thing.

Some good is already coming out of this debt crisis with doctors and dentist offering their services to the unable to pay population.

Greece could become the poster child of Europe :yep:

[Schroeder]

Looks like they have voted for a no. Good, maybe we can finally slam the doors shut and cut our losses.:/\\!!

[Oberon]

and cut our losses.:/\\!!

$16bn worth of losses.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/griechenland-krise-weidmann-warnt-wegen-bundesbank-gewinns/12012008.html

The newspaper says he has warned Angela Merkel's cabinet that a Grexit would hit the Bundesbank's profits and have a knock-on effect on Germany's budget. The bank's losses could top €14.4bn (£10.3bn, $16bn) in the event of a Grexit, he says.

[Torplexed]

$16bn worth of losses.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/griechenland-krise-weidmann-warnt-wegen-bundesbank-gewinns/12012008.html

Nicht sehr gut! :o

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Merkel_go_round.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Perhaps even more pressing will be the reaction of the European Central Bank, which has been propping up the Greek banking system for months with emergency funding. If the ECB decides at a meeting Monday to end that support, Greece’s banks will quickly run out of cash, business will grind to a halt and basic supplies could start to dwindle on store shelves.


I'm sure Germany and the EU can handle a 16 billion loss.

Anyone in Greece who had money in a bank, say goodbye to it.

http://www.trbimg.com/img-559404fe/turbine/la-fg-europe-greece-debt-pictures-021/550/550x309

[Torplexed]

On the other side of the smoking ledger, Greek banks are probably now insolvent and as good as ruined tomorrow. Somebody better dust off a drachma minting and printing press and get cranking.

[Onkel Neal]

Missed it by that much.

[Schroeder]

$16bn worth of losses.

And how much will it be if we continue this insanity? I rather say good bye to what we've already lost (it was clear from day one that we would never see that money again if you ask me) than to increase this sum further just to postpone the inevitable crash of Greece.

[STEED]

Over to you Germany, ECB, IMF and all the rest.

I have a strange feeling the cord with Greece will not be cut.

[Oberon]

And how much will it be if we continue this insanity? I rather say good bye to what we've already lost (it was clear from day one that we would never see that money again if you ask me) than to increase this sum further just to postpone the inevitable crash of Greece.

Can't disagree with you, if anything this is probably the better route for Greece. Honestly in the long run it'd probably be better to write off certain parts of Greek debt down to a manageable amount so it can repay the debts whilst maintaining a certain level of government spending for the people of Greece.
Of course, the problem with that approach is that then everyone else will want their debts written off.

Perhaps we should have an economic reset day, midnight 1st Jan 2016, all debts get written off and everyone starts again from scratch. :O:

[STEED]

France and Germany to meet on Tuesday for talks.

[em2nought]

Free Greek vacations for Northern Europe for life. You all get a timeshare slice of Greece, but have to pay a yearly maintenance fee of 1000 euros. :D

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJLVgq4WEAIMUk9.jpg:large

[mapuc]

So you think EU is going to let Greece free from EU and maybe Euro ?

From what I understand, the people in greece, those who voted no, isn't against EU and or Euro, they want a better propasal or what it is called.

Markus

[Oberon]

So you think EU is going to let Greece free from EU and maybe Euro ?

Markus

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xstRgDJC_FY/VSwH01Mkk4I/AAAAAAAAS6k/sW7ED3Q1WIE/s1600/ill-tell-you.gif

[Penguin]

Perhaps we should have an economic reset day, midnight 1st Jan 2016, all debts get written off and everyone starts again from scratch. :O:
So have you guys finally paid off your debts from 1720? (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/world/that-debt-from-1720-britains-payment-is-coming.html) :O:

[Oberon]

So have you guys finally paid off your debts from 1720? (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/world/that-debt-from-1720-britains-payment-is-coming.html) :O:

:o :doh:

How much do you want to bet that Italy is going to find some loans given to Britannia during the Roman occupation? :hmmm:

[Penguin]

:o :doh:

How much do you want to bet that Italy is going to find some loans given to Britannia during the Roman occupation? :hmmm:

Here we still have to pay a hefty fine for the Roman occupation - we call it Köln.

[mapuc]

Another thought

Could it be so, the Greece voted no, with the mind set on living as they always have, with the same benefit. Meaning.

"I vote no, so I can keep on living good as I always have. I don't want to see my benefits go away."

Markus

[Schroeder]

we call it Köln.
Which is Cologne in English for all those not familiar with how German cities are really spelled.:smug:

[Torplexed]

Which is Cologne in English for all those not familiar with how German cities are really spelled.:smug:

Ha! Next you'll be telling us that Munich is really München. :D

http://profiles.sulekhalive.com/mstore/14565155/albums/default/thumbnailfull/munching-hamster.jpg

[Oberon]

Which is Cologne in English for all those not familiar with how German cities are really spelled.:smug:

Explain Bielefeld then. :smug:

[Oberon]

Another thought

Could it be so, the Greece voted no, with the mind set on living as they always have, with the same benefit. Meaning.

"I vote no, so I can keep on living good as I always have. I don't want to see my benefits go away."

Markus

Honestly, I don't think so, because the average Greek doesn't really have much in the way of benefits to go away. As many have pointed out, no matter what way Greece went with the referendum today, it was still going to be majorly screwed over in the immediate future. I think that this vote, if anything, is partially national pride, a determination to stick two fingers up at what has been portrayed as an overbearing European presence in Greek internal affairs. In a way, it's not that much different to all the other anti-EU movements which have been spreading throughout Europe over the past decade.
The Greeks know that hard times are coming, but it will be on their terms rather than on Berlins. In theory at least.

To quote the film 'Gandhi': "Mr. Kinnoch, I beg you to accept that there is no people on Earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power."