Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged) [Archive] - Page 3

mapuc

07-05-15, 05:50 PM

Honestly, I don't think so, because the average Greek doesn't really have much in the way of benefits to go away. As many have pointed out, no matter what way Greece went with the referendum today, it was still going to be majorly screwed over in the immediate future. I think that this vote, if anything, is partially national pride, a determination to stick two fingers up at what has been portrayed as an overbearing European presence in Greek internal affairs. In a way, it's not that much different to all the other anti-EU movements which have been spreading throughout Europe over the past decade.
The Greeks know that hard times are coming, but it will be on their terms rather than on Berlins. In theory at least.

To quote the film 'Gandhi': "Mr. Kinnoch, I beg you to accept that there is no people on Earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power."

Thank you for your answer.

I had two things on my mind when writing. Their retirement age is about 53 years. And the EU want Greece to raise it to 67. and their vacation pay, who should be something out of the ordinary was also forced to be changed(have heard it in a news program)

But I'm not an expert on Greece or state economics I can only reply what I read/see and hear on the news and Internet.

And even that is difficult-´cause I seem to get different information depending on which channel I watch or which Internet page I read

Markus

Onkel Neal

07-05-15, 07:45 PM

One of these days it will be us :timeout:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Oberon

07-05-15, 08:02 PM

One of these days it will be us :timeout:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Nah, Obamas Communist-fascist FEMA deathcamp dentist Muslims will have enslaved the US and money will be outlawed by then. :yep:

Rhodes

07-06-15, 04:23 AM

Varoufakis resigns! :huh:

We have a expression here, "viram-se gregos para cá chegar!" Translate like someone fell greek to arrive/come/complete something, do to the language beeing hard/complecated to understand.
I think the greeks are indeed felling greeks...

Schroeder

07-06-15, 04:23 AM

Nah, Obamas Communist-fascist FEMA deathcamp dentist Muslims will have enslaved the US and money will be outlawed by then. :yep:
And people will be forced to marry someone from the same sex.:rock:

Anyway, at least that clown Varoufakis has stepped down.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/06/news/economy/greece-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/index.html

Don't think it'll change that much though.

*Edit* Damn you Rhodes you ninjaed me.:wah:

Rhodes

07-06-15, 04:37 AM

*Edit* Damn you Rhodes you ninjaed me.:wah:

Sorry Schroeder, it was my first time! :oops::03:

For what I saw/read in the news, It's to facilitate the new negotiations and deals. :hmmm:

Catfish

07-06-15, 05:21 AM

This is so nice:

Regarding the referendum they urged their followers to vote no, and when they did, the minister retreats.
I thought he would do that after a "yes" ?!

And now he retreats after being accepted, instead of dealing with the mess he created. :rotfl2:
You really cannot make this up.

Jimbuna

07-06-15, 05:25 AM

An interesting week ahead but the warning sign for me will be if, after France and Germany meet and if that meeting is closely followed by the ECB pulling the plug on the Greek banks....the EU intentions will then be crystal clear.

Oberon

07-06-15, 05:43 AM

Unusual step for Varoufakis to take, I suspect that he was given the push because of his comments on Europe. Could well be that Tspiras is looking to take a more conciliatory tone on Europe now that the referendum went in his way. Of course, he's still under the impression that Greece can get a better deal now that it's rejected the offered one. For all we know he could well be right. :doh: We are in completely unknown territory now. :dead:

Catfish

07-06-15, 06:03 AM

Explain Bielefeld then. :smug:

There is no need to spell Bielefeld, it does not exist. Just a cold war ruse. :smug:

http://bv.bytos.de/
http://www.stupidedia.org/stupi/Bielefeld

Catfish

07-06-15, 06:04 AM

Unusual step for Varoufakis to take, I suspect that he was given the push because of his comments on Europe. [...]

You mean Varoufakis was a errrmm pawn offer? peasant? farmer? :timeout:
:hmm2:

Oberon

07-06-15, 06:14 AM

You mean Varoufakis was a errrmm pawn offer? peasant? farmer? :timeout:
:hmm2:

Well, he did look like he could have walked out of an episode of 24. :O:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/Varoufakis_Merkel.jpg

I must admit, part of me will miss a politician who arrives at finance meetings driving his own motorcycle and wearing jeans and a leather jacket rather than the traditional smart suit. :haha:

STEED

07-06-15, 10:00 AM

One of these days it will be us :timeout:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

I'm not too well up on America but from the news I see America keeps raising the debt ceiling by another trillion every year if you keep doing that wouldn't that mean a bigger fall? Seems America has no answer to the debt problem. Of course here in the UK they are so focus on trying to get the government deficit down the last government added to the national debt!

As for Greece their no vote shows they will not be dictated too for how long only time will show us that. The EU will probably not allow them to leave with out a fight because that would show weakness and could open the door for Spain Italy Portugal and Ireland and maybe even the UK.

Catfish

07-06-15, 11:58 AM

With the international money system there will never be a balanced national budget, no country is ever able to pay back its debts.

As soon as you allow interest, the downfall is inevitable. All you can do is delaying, delaying, delaying, and then have a war and/or a monetary reform.

This is not very new, b.t.w.

Jimbuna

07-06-15, 03:14 PM

and maybe even the UK.

YES PLEASE!! :know:

ikalugin

07-06-15, 03:27 PM

Sailor Steve

07-06-15, 03:42 PM

Really? What's this then?
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/russia

Yours is a lot better than ours, but it's still there.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/government-debt-to-gdp

mapuc

07-06-15, 04:56 PM

What is there to believe ?

Are Greece on its way out of Euro and perhaps EU ? And thereby into economical collapse

Or will EU do anything to keep Greece "occupied" inside the Euro and EU ?

Markus

Oberon

07-06-15, 09:20 PM

Torplexed

07-06-15, 10:29 PM

What is there to believe ?

Are Greece on its way out of Euro and perhaps EU ? And thereby into economical collapse

Or will EU do anything to keep Greece "occupied" inside the Euro and EU ?

Markus

If you are hearing a lot of “coulds” and “mights” lately, it’s because after the people’s “No” vote, Greece is sailing into some seriously uncharted waters. What is certain is that there is much more ambiguity to come, since there isn't much historical precedent to go by.

To make matters worse, events will take an even more dramatic turn on July 20th, when Athens is due to pay the ECB 3.5 billion euros. If Greece misses that payment, the central bank will probably conclude that the state is bust and, because of the way the country’s banks are connected to the government, that they are insolvent too. That could mean that even tourists couldn't withdraw money from banks, killing tourism, and there goes the last frail, creaking prop holding what is left of the Greek economy up. :-?

Oberon

07-06-15, 11:21 PM

If you are hearing a lot of “coulds” and “mights” lately, it’s because after the people’s “No” vote, Greece is sailing into some seriously uncharted waters. What is certain is that there is much more ambiguity to come, since there isn't much historical precedent to go by.

To make matters worse, events will take an even more dramatic turn on July 20th, when Athens is due to pay the ECB 3.5 billion euros. If Greece misses that payment, the central bank will probably conclude that the state is bust and, because of the way the country’s banks are connected to the government, that they are insolvent too. That could mean that even tourists couldn't withdraw money from banks, killing tourism, and there goes the last frail, creaking prop holding what is left of the Greek economy up. :-?

You put it better than I possibly could. No-one can be sure what's going to happen next, guesses can be made, assumptions drawn, but honestly no-one can be sure.
The UK has its budget report on Wednesday, which is going to be...difficult for large swathes of the country. Certainly not Greece level difficult, but the same complaint could be made of the process. Attack the poor and defend the rich, because the rich can move countries whereas the poor are stuck, ready to be milked whenever demanded. :nope:

ikalugin

07-07-15, 02:21 AM

If RN gets cut I would shed some tears.

Eisenwurst

07-07-15, 04:49 AM

The world collectively owes a huge debt ( not monetary ) to the Greek peoples. Throughout history the Greeks have been at the forefront of innovation, laying the foundations of civilisation :- the alphabet (adapted from the Phoenicians I know, but revised with modern letters and read from left to right). Democracy, education, some brilliant minds:- Euclid, Archimedes, Pythagoras and quite a few others.

Who knows they might surprise everyone and pull off a miracle. What they need now is a focus. This is just the ramblings of an armchair politician, but would the Greek Royal Family being re-established ( self supporting of course ) be a good idea do you think? From what I could find out they were deposed after a dodgey vote.

I'm sure they're deeply patriotic and all the European Royal families are closely related. There could be a good network of pro greek influence there
with their respective governments.

I've heard of some small positive developments amongst the greek populace already, doctors and dentists offering their service for free.

The U.N. should get off it's backside and actively assist Greece.

I know there's possible ramifications if Greece is treated specially, other countries jumping up and down and going "me too, me too".

I know I'm an old bastard with possibly naïve ideas and the world is now a selfish negative place, but I honestly hope the world community comes together on this one. To not do anything and confine any possible "solutions" in terms of economic rational is so amoral.

We're all brothers after all.

Warning some colourful language in the videoclip, nothing too bad though.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-xgd_eETE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-xgd_eETE)

Jimbuna

07-07-15, 05:21 AM

If you are hearing a lot of “coulds” and “mights” lately, it’s because after the people’s “No” vote, Greece is sailing into some seriously uncharted waters. What is certain is that there is much more ambiguity to come, since there isn't much historical precedent to go by.

To make matters worse, events will take an even more dramatic turn on July 20th, when Athens is due to pay the ECB 3.5 billion euros. If Greece misses that payment, the central bank will probably conclude that the state is bust and, because of the way the country’s banks are connected to the government, that they are insolvent too. That could mean that even tourists couldn't withdraw money from banks, killing tourism, and there goes the last frail, creaking prop holding what is left of the Greek economy up. :-?

Pretty much sums it up for me but on the tourist subject, that is the one vital strand that will always be there, provided weather patterns don't change and there is obviously no chance of that.

Tourists will resort to cash (that has always been the best option in Turkey for example) and whilst some might say they would be taking advantage I think the opposite....the Greeks will be eager for foreign currency to shore up the Drachma (should they decide to drop the Euro.

As I've previously said on numerous occasions, it is the Greek population my sympathies are with and not those who lead them and govern on their behalf.

Onkel Neal

07-07-15, 08:27 AM

Wondering: Greeks cannot get more than ~60 euros a day from ATMs...if they have money in their accounts, can they simply use their debit cards? Or write checks on the account?

One thing that should not be overlooked, the social breakdown that can and probably will occur quickly as the economic breakdown begins. If people have no easy/clear way to exchange goods and services, ie buying some fish at the market, getting fuel for the car, getting formula for the baby, etc. because of a shortage of currency, things will start to get ugly fast. People may have found the referendum a catharsis for their frustration, but it won't last when they have to spend half their day just surviving. :06:

Schroeder

07-07-15, 09:06 AM

People may have found the referendum a catharsis for their frustration, but it won't last when they have to spend half their day just surviving. :06:
The majority has voted for it. So obviously they want to go that route.

Jimbuna

07-07-15, 09:33 AM

Breaking News (5 minutes ago):

Greece has provided Eurogroup with no "concrete proposal" to resolve debt crisis - Malta PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33426328

Who will blink first?

Rockstar

07-07-15, 09:43 AM

The majority has voted for it. So obviously they want to go that route.

But do they really know what they just asked for? As one Greek women in a WSJ article was quoted as saying:

“I feel like I need to choose between two doors, but no one’s really told me what lies behind each.”

The way I see it No to the euro is what got Tsipra notoriety with the Greek public. By bringing it up for a vote it took the heat of him if it gets worse.

em2nought

07-07-15, 03:15 PM

Anybody, besides me, decide to pull some cash from the bank to have on hand as a result of this Greek play? Or maybe because it's getting to be hurricane season? It's not like the bank is paying interest anyway. lol

The funny thing is I was uncomfortable driving home just in case somebody decided that I made a rolling stop, and that any money I was carrying needed to be confiscated because I was "probably" going to buying drugs. Land of the free!

Jimbuna

07-08-15, 06:00 AM

It looks like Greece is fast running out of deadlines and has until Thursday to come up with a concrete list of proposals, those which would be acceptable to the creditors. The problem being, such proposals would be in total defiance of what Tspiras was elected on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33441183

Sending the new finance minister with nothing other than a hand written note on a hotel notepad hardly garnered any credibility or support from those they seek help from.

http://news.sky.com/story/1515196/greece-may-have-finally-run-out-of-deadlines

Stay strong people of Greece, it is not you but rather those who represent you who are not worthy.

Dowly

07-08-15, 08:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=085G2yVNmZk

:O:

Onkel Neal

07-11-15, 01:14 AM

Wondering: Greeks cannot get more than ~60 euros a day from ATMs...if they have money in their accounts, can they simply use their debit cards? Or write checks on the account?

Seems like they can:
since the start of last week, when cash withdrawals and foreign transactions were restricted, they have had two ways of doing that. They can either use their debit cards or make bank transfers inside Greece.

So, for all the hoopla of referendums and "democracy", it appears Tsipras is back with the deal he urged "No" on. :hmmm:

What it all boils down to, more or less, is that the Greeks voted not so much with their heads last Sunday as with whatever part of the body is home to their abundant pride. “I voted with my soul, because I cannot vote with reason,” said Natassa Platsouka, a 39-year-old librarian who has had to provide for her two teenage children over the past two years with no job and no income. “For me the first thing was to say ‘No’ to everything we suffered.”

Roumbos found that a one-liner would suffice: “Greece is the only country where ‘No’ really does mean ‘Yes.'”

http://time.com/3953834/greece-referendum-bailout-euro-europe/

As Skybird was fond of saying, Germany and the EU should share the pain. They did not do a very good job of ensuring the original loans were based on solid accounting.

Oberon

07-11-15, 02:38 AM

Yes, that's going to leave a bad taste in the mouth of many of Tspiras's supporters, as well as all those who voted 'no' to what is pretty much exactly the same deal that the Greek parliament just voted 'yes' on.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a few protests in Athens at some point.
Of course, we're not entirely out of the woods yet, as Robert Preston points out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33475455

And meanwhile on the other side of the planet, China has suffered a big stumble:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33473386

STEED

07-11-15, 05:22 AM

Greek debt crisis: Goldman Sachs could be sued for helping hide debts when it joined euro

:har: :har: :har: :har:

I'm not laughing at Greece good luck to them if they do. Goldman Sachs in the news again for the..I lost count for their dodgy doings.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

em2nought

07-11-15, 10:10 AM

And meanwhile on the other side of the planet, China has suffered a big stumble:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33473386

Ah, some good news for a change! :D :D:Dhttp://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-entire-world-learned-a-very-important-lesson-about-china-this-week-2015-7

Probably why they're permitted to watch "Big Bang Theory" now, they need some humor to keep them off the ledges. :o

kraznyi_oktjabr

07-11-15, 03:17 PM

As you may know decisions in Euro issues require consensus agreements. Unfortunately for Greece, Finnish national broadcaster YLE reports, that Finnish finance minister Alexander Stubb has been instructed to block third bailout package.

Source in Finnish: http://yle.fi/uutiset/suomelta_tiukka_ei_kreikalle/8148625

Last update at 22:31 local time (19:31 GMT)

Red Devil

07-11-15, 03:28 PM

Is there anybody here from the ancient wonderful land called Greece?

I want to know, first hand, what is now going to happen in Greece now that you were all brave enough to anger Angela Merkel and voted with some common sense? :arrgh!:

Red Devil

07-11-15, 03:32 PM

oh, on that subject, a little bit of fun:

THE nation of Greece said sorry to the European Union with a present of an enormous wooden horse.
Left outside the European Central Bank in the dead of night, the horse has now been moved into the ECB’s central lobby where it is proudly on display.
A gift tag attached to the horse, which is surprisingly light for its size and has small holes along the length of its body, suggested that it should be placed in the bank’s vaults overnight to avoid it being targeted by thieves.
Mario Draghi, President of the ECB, said: “How nice of the Greeks to acknowledge the trouble we’ve been put to on their behalf with this wonderful horse, handmade and so large it could hold a dozen double-decker buses.
“The card with it, which had a teddy bear dressed as a hobo on the front, explained that Greece made us this because they don’t have enough money for a present, which brought a tear to my eye.
“However, unless they can somehow find billions overnight then austerity measures must continue.”
Oddly, Greek representatives in Brussels have hinted that they may soon be in a position to settle their debts and have puzzled the French and German banks that hold their loans by asking if there is any discount for cash.
The govt of Spain reacted angrily to the gift, accusing the Greeks of trying to bribe the ECB and redoubling their own efforts to weave a gigantic sombrero-wearing straw donkey.

mapuc

07-11-15, 03:54 PM

Oberon

07-11-15, 05:03 PM

Are we heading to wards a big economical meltdown ? A meltdown who would make 1929 crash look like little breeze in compare.

And in every crashes we had throughout the history-the guilty one has always been money and greed.

Is there a solution for the future-so we avoid similar situations ?

Markus

I think we're not out of the woods yet. I don't know about a meltdown, although if Europe falls over hard enough to make China fall over, that in turn would make Japan and America fall over and then we could be in a spot of bother. I doubt that a Grexit would be as bad for the European markets as it would have been about five years ago though, since most of Europe has seen this one coming for a while now and have taken steps to make firewalls around Greece so that if it should fall out of the Eurozone then it won't spark off a bigger problem.
China on the other hand, that's a concern, because it's going to give the markets a fair bit of jitters to know that China isn't the safe pair of hands that many have made it out to be (mainly people in Beijing). So that's going to be one to watch, but then again the PRC has been one to watch since the beginning of this century. However, we've been told ever since around 2007-9 that China is coming to get us, it's been the new Red scare before Russia got jealous and wanted it back, that China is replacing the US as the main global superpower, that soon everything will be made in China and there'll be no jobs for the rest of us. China is a big power, yes, but it's a house of cards built on the roof of a Lada driving through the most poorly maintained road in deepest Siberia. It looks big, it looks strong, but it really is very fragile and only a few bad months away from an uprising.
Of course, the US and Europe don't want the PRC to fall because a) it would really screw with western markets, and b) we'd have no idea what would replace it and how that would affect Eastern Asia, so we're happy to buy into the myth of a strong China and deal with it on that level, rather than trying to undermine and collapse it as we did with the Soviet Union. :yep:

em2nought

07-11-15, 05:04 PM

Nope, you'll find all the Greeks in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3SfNANtig

Somebody posted it already, but I can't find it here. :D lol

kraznyi_oktjabr

07-11-15, 05:30 PM

Apparently there is emergency clause in ESM treaties which allows 85% of Eurozone countries to overrule dissidence. This means that Finland alone can't prevent bailout and atleast three countries have to say 'no' to it. Who could they be? Not sure if Germany is really willing to pull the plug even though their stance seems to be quite tough.

Betonov

07-11-15, 05:34 PM

Any Greeks living on Ios ??
I want to know if Sweet Irish Dreams is still opened :Kaleun_Cheers:

Harvs

07-11-15, 06:08 PM

Oxi

Torplexed

07-11-15, 06:22 PM

China on the other hand, that's a concern, because it's going to give the markets a fair bit of jitters to know that China isn't the safe pair of hands that many have made it out to be (mainly people in Beijing). So that's going to be one to watch, but then again the PRC has been one to watch since the beginning of this century. However, we've been told ever since around 2007-9 that China is coming to get us, it's been the new Red scare before Russia got jealous and wanted it back, that China is replacing the US as the main global superpower, that soon everything will be made in China and there'll be no jobs for the rest of us. China is a big power, yes, but it's a house of cards built on the roof of a Lada driving through the most poorly maintained road in deepest Siberia. It looks big, it looks strong, but it really is very fragile and only a few bad months away from an uprising.
Of course, the US and Europe don't want the PRC to fall because a) it would really screw with western markets, and b) we'd have no idea what would replace it and how that would affect Eastern Asia, so we're happy to buy into the myth of a strong China and deal with it on that level, rather than trying to undermine and collapse it as we did with the Soviet Union. :yep:

I figure there won't be a crash anytime soon while the Chinese government is furiously propping their market up. They have stopped traders from selling shares for 6 months, and they are suspending from the market thousands of shares that look like they may fall. They are pumping in cash to keep the market afloat.

However, it this point it's become a zombie stock market. The Party's actions may have prevented a politically embarrassing stock market meltdown, but in the process, they've made the task of modernizing China's economy more difficult. Drastic, hasty measures tend to make investors even more desperate to get the heck out. The first casualty may be China’s plan to open up its stock market to foreign investors. Recent events will make louder those voices which have argued that Chinese equities are not yet mature enough to be included in international stock market indexes.

BossMark

07-12-15, 01:38 AM

Stay on topic, this is meant to be anything but a joking thread/matter.

Herr-Berbunch

07-12-15, 03:49 AM

Yes, there are a couple of Greek members that I know of. Haven't seen them recently though.

Jimbuna

07-12-15, 04:58 AM

A gentle reminder to keep this thread on topic and observe the serious nature of the subject matter....no jokes if we'd all be so kind.

Jimbuna

07-12-15, 05:34 AM

^ I see and appreciate the action :salute:

Oberon

07-12-15, 01:21 PM

Right, so from what I can tell from the snippets of news coming out from the meetings today, it looks as though Greeces current proposal will be rejected in favour of one of further stringency. Something along the lines of:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJudbnwUEAA1sI2.png

This will have to be voted on by the Greek parliament which is already showing signs of cracks in Syrizas unity, Citi puts forward this overview of what's to come:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJu2foQUEAAvgzI.jpg:large

In short, 72 hours to save Greece.

Oberon

07-12-15, 01:30 PM

Here's some more details on the EU counter, the website is in Greek but the pictures are in English:
http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=432281&catID=22

Paul Mason (Channel 4 economics editor) puts it thus:

Here's what's happening in the Greek negotiation: first the document
(above link)

The Eurogroup demands = mixture of negotiable and ludicrous. No Greek govt will hand 50bn assets to tax haven Luxemburg...
Lukewise obsessional product mkt reform is like Frankfurt bankers declaring war on Greek bakeries - who in the world actually cares?
the new stuff is offer of debt reprofling and offer of temporary Grexit & debt restructure. Media here freaking out about it. But...
Greeks just found out there is no sovereignty and nothing but extreme pro-market economics on offer inside EZ.

Whereas, Andrew Neil, BBC presenter puts it in a manner in which we are probably all capable of feeling right now:

Those following me on Twitter know I have followed Greek crisis in huge detail. So here is the truth. I have no idea what is happening

In short, basically the EU seems to have hardened its stance considerably, perhaps on the input from Euro-sceptic ministers such as Finlands Finance minister. Greeces attempt to get through with a re-jigged version of what was originally put forward over a week ago has been rebuffed. There's blood in the water and the EU ministers know they hold all the cards.
This will not pass in its current form, there's no way any self-respecting government would accept it, not Greece, not any nation.

Grexit is now almost inevitable.

Oberon

07-12-15, 01:47 PM

One part of the document catches the eye:

http://www.real.gr/Files/Articles/Document/432285.pdf

"to fully normalize working methods with the institutions [the documents words for the 'troika'], including the necessary work on the ground in Athens, to improve programme implementation and monitoring. The government needs to consult and agree with the institutions on all draft legislation in relevant areas with adequate time before submitting it for public consultation or to Parliament."

In other words, the Greek government would have to get the approval of the Troika for every financial decision that it would put forward to the parliament or referendum.
I don't think there's a government in the world who would accept such a direct intervention in their sovereignty as this. :nope:

kraznyi_oktjabr

07-12-15, 02:23 PM

<snip>In short, basically the EU seems to have hardened its stance considerably, perhaps on the input from Euro-sceptic ministers such as Finlands Finance minister. Greeces attempt to get through with a re-jigged version of what was originally put forward over a week ago has been rebuffed. There's blood in the water and the EU ministers know they hold all the cards.
This will not pass in its current form, there's no way any self-respecting government would accept it, not Greece, not any nation.

Grexit is now almost inevitable.I agree except that Finance Minister Stubb is hardly eurosceptic (our Foreign Minister Timo Soini on the other hand...) and has been very pro-Europe and pro-Euro in his previous statements.
One part of the document catches the eye:

http://www.real.gr/Files/Articles/Document/432285.pdf

In other words, the Greek government would have to get the approval of the Troika for every financial decision that it would put forward to the parliament or referendum.
I don't think there's a government in the world who would accept such a direct intervention in their sovereignty as this. :nope:Taking into account how much Greek politicians' word is worth I wouldn't except any better offer...

Oberon

07-12-15, 02:49 PM

Foreign, that was the one. Got those mixed up. :dead: Although how much input he'd have had into it is questionable, but certainly there's a pro/anti-Greece-remaining-in-the-EU split in the current negotiating team, I've heard word of a German/France split which could be exacerbated depending on what happens.
A lot of uncertainty ahead, that's about the only certain thing. :haha:

But, I have to say, reliability of Greek ministers or not, that level of direct intervention into Greek politics, I don't think any European nation would accept such a thing directed at them. In fact, I don't think any nation in the world would. :dead:

kraznyi_oktjabr

07-12-15, 03:13 PM

But, I have to say, reliability of Greek ministers or not, that level of direct intervention into Greek politics, I don't think any European nation would accept such a thing directed at them. In fact, I don't think any nation in the world would. :dead:Well, sign up and become a glorified puppet goverment or do not sign and face economic collapse. Mr. Tsipras has wonderful options to pick from. :dead:

Agreed, Grexit (not any silly "time-out" but exit) seems most realistic option at the moment.

Torplexed

07-12-15, 04:06 PM

Beyond Northern European distrust of Greece, another factor that could prevent a deal is that Greece needs a far bigger bailout now than it did when Tsipras announced the Greek referendum two weeks ago. That's because the last two weeks of dithering have done even more serious damage to the Greek economy. Depositors have been bleeding Greek banks of cash, and commerce in the country has been grinding to a halt. It will take additional cash to recapitalize the banks and repair the damage to the Greek government's finances.

Maybe now, better an end with horror than horror without end.

kraznyi_oktjabr

07-12-15, 04:15 PM

Beyond Northern European distrust of Greece, another factor that could prevent a deal is that Greece needs a far bigger bailout now than it did when Tsipras announced the Greek referendum two weeks ago. That's because the last two weeks of dithering have done even more serious damage to the Greek economy. Depositors have been bleeding Greek banks of cash, and commerce in the country has been grinding to a halt. It will take additional cash to recapitalize the banks and repair the damage to the Greek government's finances.In Thursday they talked about €53 billion. In Friday that was upto €74 billion. Yesterday it went to €80+billion... What will it be tomorrow? They already owe €320 billion...

Maybe now, better an end with horror than horror without end.:yep:

Oberon

07-12-15, 04:25 PM

200% of GDP, that's what the debt would be if the new bailout was to go ahead. :doh:
There really is no way for Greece to go but down, and down hard. I really, really feel sorry for the people of Greece.

mapuc

07-12-15, 04:26 PM

"Grexit is now almost inevitable."

Are you sure ?

What if Greece do agree on EU'S all 12 terms ?

Markus

Torplexed

07-12-15, 04:39 PM

What if Greece do agree on EU'S all 12 terms ?

Markus

I think Greece is a like a drowning man, who'll agree to any terms to be saved. However, I think certain European countries feel that if they toss them a life preserver, it won't be long before they are grumbling for a row boat, then a yacht. :-?

Schroeder

07-12-15, 04:55 PM

There is no point in any more bail outs if the Greek don't get a proper tax authority up and running. If there is no income the state can't spend money. Since they are unwilling to set up a proper tax authority it's just a question of (short) time before they are broke again. We offered them help in setting their tax authority up like ours (which isn't perfect but fairly efficient) but they refused so I say they can sort out their problems themselves. I'm already taxed in my home country and refuse to pay the taxes for the Greek people as well. I don't want a single Euro to be given to that government. I've no problems with giving humanitarian relief like food, medical supplies and stuff like that, hell not even if it would cost some billions but no more bail outs!

Oberon

07-12-15, 05:28 PM

Indeed, it's not as if much, if anything, of this bailout money has actually gone to the Greek people, it's just gone into the black hole of the Greek debt and its bloated banking system.
There is talk of a temporary Grexit, something like five years out of the Eurozone and the restructuring of Greek debts.
I think restructuring really is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, the only way forward really is writing off portions of the debt. Of course, to do that you'd also need to do that to Ireland, Spain, Italy, etc, and you can bet the UK, even though it's not in that bad a financial shape, would start whinging about something.
Meanwhile Russia is getting ready to start moving into the Greek market as soon as they fall out of the Euro.

Little wonder that there's been reports of ministers shouting at each other in this meeting. :O:

Solving the Greek debt crisis was never going to be easy - but some negotiators have been feeling the heat more than others.
Reuters reports that the atmosphere between finance ministers during talks on Saturday became "tough, even violent" at times.
Germany's Wolfgang Schaeuble seemed to be at the centre of much of the heated debate. At one stage he reportedly snapped at ECB governor Mario Draghi, "I'm not stupid".
One participant told the news agency that Mr Schaeuble also had to sit down with French finance chief Michel Sapin to clear the air before talks resumed on Sunday.
"It was crazy, a kindergarten," the source added.
Meanwhile, Greece's new finance minister, Euclid Tsakalotos, was keeping a calm head.
"I don't know if it's because he's tired or just the way he is, but he can really soak up the pressure," said one observer.

V senior French official briefing the meeting btw finance ministers last night was "extremely violent". Schauble was "reigned in" by Merkel.

Of course, the ramifications of tonights talks is going to be felt beyond Greece, there's been a lot of talk of tension between Germany and France as well as between Merkel and her finance minister, Schäuble.
This week will probably be the biggest event in the EUs history so far.

Torplexed

07-12-15, 06:17 PM

This week will probably be the biggest event in the EUs history so far.

No doubt. This is rather shocking. It could scuttle the European Project and it's likely to drive Greece into Russia's arms. However, if Russia values their rubles over a quick geopolitical advantage, they'll run away screaming.

Red Devil

07-12-15, 06:29 PM

I didnt realise that my thread had been merged with another, no problem, it would have been nice to have been told ..... anyway.

I have been watching some of the developments on tv. The bottom line as far as I can see is that the EU soviet, scared of the imminent collapse of thier empire, is psreading doom and gloom in the EU controlled Euro press.

Greece will recover and do well IF she is not scared to take the plunge and get the heck out. Greece should never have joined in the first place, I could say the same about the UK.

But this is nothing new to Greece, see their history of 1893.

Trade. Greece will be able to freely trade with the EU countires and with the world, gaining the best deals probably outside the EU.

The same goes for the UK, we will be able to recommence our trade that we had for years with the Commonwealth of Nations and with the world, again gaining the best deals in nrgotiations withuot hands tied by the EU.

Both the Greeks and the British will do much much better out.

The EU say that 'penalties' will ensue if we pull out. Penalties? What are they going to do, they are impotent. They cant enforce a trade embargo we only deal 10% with the EU and 80% with the world. They cant fine us, because the £77m a DAY we pay into the EU will then be our own money again.

Greece although in a much worse position, can also recover, with our help and that of her friends in the world.

My original question was aimed at greek fans who are members of this forum and I wanted to know if they were 'suffering' as much as the EU tries to have us believe.

Mikhael Gorbatchev said in the not too distant past that the EU was worse than any Soviet ever was, even when Stalin was in the hot seat.

Oberon

07-12-15, 06:51 PM

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/015/652/230114_908223010.png

Red Devil

07-12-15, 07:16 PM

This is interesting, Angela (Adolph) Merkel take note:

why cant I cut and paste a news item.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/06/27/germany-owes-greece-e9-billion-in-wwi-reparations/

oh well, here is the link instead

Berlin may suffer from around 9 billion euros in lost revenue due to reparations (http://greece.greekreporter.com/?s=reparations) from WWI to Greece, according to a recent report conducted by the Greek General Accounting Office.

In the relevant assessment, it is claimed that Greece had anticipated to receive 0.4% of the total amount of reparations after WWI.

Germany should have paid 37 installments to Greece, however the Greek government received nothing more than 1.5% of the total amount.

That was the result of a British and French initiative during the Lausanne Conference in 1932 to suspend demands for war reparations from Germany due to the Great Depression (http://greece.greekreporter.com/?s=Great+Depression) outbreak.

According to the Greek General Accounting Office’s report, Greece still has the right to ask for the 9 billion euros because of the fact that the country was not a signatory to the aforementioned agreement.
- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/06/27/germany-owes-greece-e9-billion-in-wwi-reparations/#sthash.hubWV0jj.dpuf

Oberon

07-12-15, 07:19 PM

http://i.imgur.com/zQQMQMD.jpg

mapuc

07-12-15, 07:21 PM

About post #564

Have Greece made a demand on these money before ?

If no, why suddenly now ?

Markus

Red Devil

07-12-15, 07:31 PM

I do recall it being mentioned some years ago, but, I assume because they were seeking admittance to the EU, germany 'persuaded' them to drop it, but it is still owed.

Torplexed

07-12-15, 07:44 PM

Berlin may suffer from around 9 billion euros in lost revenue due to reparations (http://greece.greekreporter.com/?s=reparations) from WWI to Greece, according to a recent report conducted by the Greek General Accounting Office.

In the relevant assessment, it is claimed that Greece had anticipated to receive 0.4% of the total amount of reparations after WWI.

Germany should have paid 37 installments to Greece, however the Greek government received nothing more than 1.5% of the total amount.

That was the result of a British and French initiative during the Lausanne Conference in 1932 to suspend demands for war reparations from Germany due to the Great Depression (http://greece.greekreporter.com/?s=Great+Depression) outbreak.

I wonder if they'll be seeking reparations from what's left of the Ottoman & Austro-Hungarian Empires and Bulgaria as well? :hmmm:

Oberon

07-12-15, 07:47 PM

Germany finished paying WWI reparations in 2010, if Greece had wanted its share then it should have brought this up sooner with the US, UK or France.
Note that one of those three is not an EU member and thus would be clear from 'EU bullying'.

Oberon

07-12-15, 07:53 PM

I wonder if they'll be seeking reparations from what's left of the Ottoman & Austro-Hungarian Empires and Bulgaria as well? :hmmm:

I wonder how we can get that money that the South Sea Company owes us back...could always charge the French and the Russians for the debts we still have from financing the Napoleonic and Crimean wars...not sure about the Slavery Abolition Act though...

Torplexed

07-12-15, 08:06 PM

not sure about the Slavery Abolition Act though...

Forty acres and a mule. Three acres and a cow. A car in a every garage and a chicken in every pot. Got to be wary of those cheap promises. :D

em2nought

07-12-15, 11:09 PM

Anyone here from Washington State? I want the money back that my folks invested in Whoops. :hmmm:

...and the CIA owes me for what my brother had in Global Marine. Project Azorian be damned.

Betonov

07-13-15, 01:47 AM

Rhodes

07-13-15, 03:19 AM

Eurozone leaders reach a "unanimous" agreement over a third Greek bailout after marathon talks.
According with news here, 17 hours of talking and possibly other stuff!

So, no Grexit, but also a defeat for Tsipras/Syriza? or can this be considered as victory? :hmmm:

Catfish

07-13-15, 03:31 AM

What WW1 reparations from Germany ??????

The Entante landed in Thesalonike to help Serbia and then the Greek king decided to help the Central powers and refused the Entante to move out of the port :/\\!!:/\\!!
UK and France should demand reparations from Greece

^wth?

The king was pro-Germany, but wished to remain neutral.

The Entente had "entered" (real orwellian truspeak here) the neutral greek harbour and region against the declared will of the king, without asking anyone of the greek government, too. Strange enough, no other country protested against this break against a country's neutrality :shifty:
The greek parliament finally decided to drive their king out (they saw the chance to fight Turkey and get their hands on Konstantinopel/Istanbul), and thus broke neutrality, in not hindering the landed Entente forces.

Just like Italy too, which entered the war because of seeing the chance to take a big slice from Austro-Hungary, including Trieste and a smaller town called Venetia, and leave the kingdom without any port, in the Mediterranean.

No friendship or sympathy, just greed and own interests by all of them.
__________________

Oberon

07-13-15, 05:33 AM

Moving back to the present day...

So Tspiras has agreed to the EU bailout, but the battle isn't quite over yet. He's got to get the reforms that the EU want through the Greek parliament and do it by Wednesday. Then, the French and German parliaments have to approve it.

What a mess...

Betonov

07-13-15, 06:50 AM

^wth?

The king was pro-Germany, but wished to remain neutral.

Yes he was and yes he remained.
Problem is that the Greeks gave the Entante rights to disembark armies in their port and march them to Serbia. All well here but the king them withdrew that deal and the allied soldiers were stuck in Thessaloniki, Serbia remained helpless.
He didn't join the central powers, but he did them one great favour.

Present day
Another bailout sounds like a bad idea, but provided the greek actually get their act together it just might work.

Catfish

07-13-15, 07:11 AM

^ No, the Greeks did never allow Entente arimies to land. They had no real power or will to hinder them though, also due to the greek schism.

"The objective was to help the Serbs in their fight against Bulgarian aggression. But the expedition arrived too late, the Serbs having been beaten before they landed. It was decided to keep the force in place for future operations, even against Greek opposition. The Greek Chief of the General Staff in Athens had told them " You will be driven into the sea, and you will not have time even to cry for mercy"

The Entente used Greek neutrality as an excuse, although they could have used the Albanian coast for a rapid deployment of reinforcements and equipment during the first 14 months of the war.

The Germans ordered the Bulgarians not to cross the Greek borders, reluctant to risk a Greek entry into the war in response to a Bulgarian invasion in Macedonia.
The Allies for their part took advantage of that, reinforcing and consolidating their positions behind the border to Bulgaria.

Betonov

07-13-15, 07:40 AM

Then this documentary is wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaRGckgSoYs&list=PLdEBPyoq11-7H07u7iwGM_3l-_QfxFj9B&index=10&t=33m50s

Skybird

07-13-15, 07:57 AM

Hi folks, just a quick jump-in, jump-out.

Greece cannot pay its debts ... ever. Nor can several other members of the European Union. That’s why Europe’s elite are loath to place Greece in default. If Greece is allowed to abrogate its debts, why should any of the other debtor members of the EU pay up? The financial consequences of massive default by most of the EU members is hard to predict, but it won't be pretty. Europe has built a financial house of cards, and the slightest loss of confidence will bring it crashing down.
The tragedy of Europe has socialism at its core. Europe has flirted with socialism since the late nineteenth century. Nineteenth century Bismarckian socialism produced two world wars. Leninist socialism slaughtered and enslaved hundreds of millions until it collapsed, mercifully without a third world war. Yet, not to be deterred, in the ashes of World War II, Europe’s socialists embarked on a new socialist dream. If socialism fails in one country, perhaps it will succeed if all of Europe joined a supra-national socialist organization. Oh, they don't call what has evolved from this dream “socialism,” but it is socialism nonetheless.
Socialism will not work, whether in one country, a multi-state region such as Europe, or the entire world. Ludwig von Mises explained that socialism is not an alternative economic system. It is a program for consumption. It tells us nothing about economic production. Since each man's production must be distributed to all of mankind, there is no economic incentive to produce anything, although there may be the incentive of coercion and threats of violence. Conversely, free market capitalism is an economic system of production, whereby each man owns the product of his own labors and, therefore, has great economic incentives to produce both for himself, his family, and has surplus goods to trade for the surplus product of others. Even under life and death threats neither the socialist worker nor his overseer would know what to produce, how to produce it, or in what quantities and qualities. These economic cues are the product of free market capitalism and money prices.
Under capitalism, man specializes to produce trade goods for the product of others. This is just one way of stating Say’s Law; i.e., that production precedes consumption and that production itself creates demand. For example, a farmer may grow some corn for his family to consume or to feed to his own livestock, but he sells most of his corn on the market in exchange for money with which to buy all the many other necessities and luxuries of life. His corn crop is his demand and money is simply the indirect medium of exchange.
Keynes attempted to deny Say’s Law, claiming that demand itself — created artificially by central bank money printing — would spur production. He attempted, illogically and unsuccessfully, to place consumption ahead of production. To this day Keynes is very popular with spendthrift politicians, to whom he bestowed a moral imperative to spend money that they did not have.
We see the result of 150 years of European socialism playing out in grand style in Greece today. The producing countries are beginning to realize that they have been robbed by the EU’s socialist guarantee that no nation will be allowed to default on its bonds. Greece merely accepted this guarantee at face value and spent itself into national bankruptcy. Other EU nations are not far behind. It’s time to give free market capitalism and sound money a chance: it’s worked every time it’s been tried.

SOURCE (https://mises.org/print/35835)

Bullseye.

The German "translation" of it is even more comprehensive: LINK (http://www.misesde.org/?p=10404&print=1)

Red Devil

07-13-15, 07:58 AM

Yes he was and yes he remained.
Problem is that the Greeks gave the Entante rights to disembark armies in their port and march them to Serbia. All well here but the king them withdrew that deal and the allied soldiers were stuck in Thessaloniki, Serbia remained helpless.
He didn't join the central powers, but he did them one great favour.

Present day
Another bailout sounds like a bad idea, but provided the greek actually get their act together it just might work.

If this was Otto, he got thrown out by the Greeks as a waste of time.

Catfish

07-13-15, 08:17 AM

If this was Otto, he got thrown out by the Greeks as a waste of time.

Yes lol, but

- it was not Otto, but Constantine
- and he was not thrown out by the greek, but abdicated:

"By the summer of 1917, the Allies had lost their patience with Constantine. On June 11, they sent an ultimatum to Athens, demanding the king’s abdication. That same day, blatantly disregarding the country’s neutrality, British forces blockaded Greece and the French landed their troops at Piraeus, on the Isthmus of Corinth. The following day, Constantine abdicated in favor of his second son, Alexander, who reinstated Venizelos as prime minister. On July 2, 1916, Greece declared war on the Central Powers. Over the next 18 months, some 5,000 Greek soldiers would die on the battlefields of World War I"

And of course Greece did not get Konstantinople.

STEED

07-13-15, 08:43 AM

That's a rap people see you at Greece crises 3 in a couple of years if not before. :03:

About time Greece asked to see the EU accounts and ask them would they like a free 20 year celebration cake for not having their accounts audited. :DL

Schroeder

07-13-15, 10:37 AM

Hi folks, just a quick jump-in, jump-out.

It's alive!!!!:o

Catfish

07-13-15, 01:14 PM

It's alive!!!!:o

Yes, and with a load of complete nonsense, he must have gathered from Mises and Ayn Rand :haha:

The whole system is bollocks, not only Greece! What do you think happens, if ANY of the world's nations would be forced to pay its debts?
They would all be bankrupt, in a second!

But to accuse socialism for the debt of Greece is absolutely ridiculous. Not one rich guy in Greece pays taxes, this is why they are bankrupt. And don't tell me that just this is not the wet dream of any "capitalist"!

Mises blames governments for the fact that markets now are controlled by transnational Cartels. Why they don’t seem to consider the shareholders and controllers responsible remains an open question.

"It’s time to give free market capitalism and sound money a chance: it’s worked every time it’s been tried"

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

Betonov

07-13-15, 01:57 PM

Runaway socialism will bankrupt the country.
Runaway capitalism will bankrupt the nation.

August

07-13-15, 02:17 PM

Runaway socialism will bankrupt the country.
Runaway capitalism will bankrupt the nation.

That's why i'm so fond of the saying:

"Gridlock is the best form of government for the common man"

Jimbuna

07-13-15, 02:50 PM

Beginning to look like Tsipras has failed to deliver on any of his pre-election pledges and has given in to even more stringent measures than what were on offer prior to the referendum he called.

Britain is the third or fourth largest contributor to the EU budget (dependant on source used). At this rate the EU should be begging Cameron not to pull the UK out of the EU....somehow I doubt this will happen though.

Red Devil

07-13-15, 03:55 PM

The EU have ripped up an agreement between the member nations and will be holding out the hat to member nations to COUGH UP!! Expected to cost UK £850 MILLION, and trhe risk of default is HIGH.

It seems that agreements are not worth the paper they are written on. The unelected commission are ordering!!!! states to cough up. Second word is off EU. UK pay 14% of the EU Budget.

Shame we cannot look after our own so generously.

Whatever the result of any referdum UK might, or might not have, Cameron is committed to the EU, he is a traitor to his people and will find any escuse to rip up the referendum.

mapuc

07-13-15, 04:25 PM

As I see it, the crisis isn't over yet, it has only been postponed. The Greece parliament have to vote on these terms.

Markus

STEED

07-13-15, 06:03 PM

Whatever the result of any referdum UK might, or might not have, Cameron is committed to the EU, he is a traitor to his people and will find any escuse to rip up the referendum.

No argument from me, that son of a bitch will stitch this country up like a kipper.

Oberon

07-13-15, 09:22 PM

As I see it, the crisis isn't over yet, it has only been postponed. The Greece parliament have to vote on these terms.

Markus

From what I can tell of how the lines are formed in the Greek parliament at the moment there's enough in favour of the terms in order to get them through, but it's going to be ugly inside and outside of parliament. There's been a call for mass protests on Wednesday, and I expect that the Greek people will come out onto the streets to make their displeasure at this perceived betrayal by Tsipras. I can't see him remaining PM for long, in fact, if I were him I'd resign as soon as this agreement makes it through parliament. It's the only honourable way out.

Then it's over to the French and German parliaments to vote, and that's where it could get a little tighter, there's plenty in Germany who are against this deal, but I don't know how the coalitions lie in Germany enough to say either way how it will go. France has the not insignificant portion of the FN who will probably vote against it, but otherwise, again, I couldn't say yes or no for certain.

Jimbuna

07-14-15, 10:03 AM

If this all goes through (which I suspect it will) let the French and the Italians (those who were all for the deal from the beginning of the meeting of EU leaders) foot the bill.

I'm pleased it looks like the UK won't be funding much if any of it.

Tspiras and his government won't see out the end of the year and I predict a Grexit before that deadline also.

Schroeder

07-14-15, 11:12 AM

I'm pleased it looks like the UK won't be funding much if any of it.

Tspiras and his government won't see out the end of the year and I predict a Grexit before that deadline also.
Funny, I must have missed the "Nazi" and "non solidary pigs that want to humiliate Greece" screaming when the UK decided that. Sure as hell always comes up when Germany is taking tough stance on Greece.:roll:

Oberon

07-14-15, 11:16 AM

It really is stupid, the UK always seems to want to cherry pick its role in the EU. Wants to harvest the good stuff without taking the responsibility with the bad stuff. :nope: :/\\!!
No wonder the rest of Europe gets fed up with us, I would get fed up with us.

STEED

07-14-15, 12:00 PM

I'm pleased it looks like the UK won't be funding much if any of it.

Don't bank on it jim we have been down this road before.

UK..NO NO NO
EU..YOU WILL CONTRIBUTE
UK..OK

Rockstar

07-14-15, 06:36 PM

But nobody goes around accusing the Brits of being members of the Legion of St. George either. :D

mapuc

07-14-15, 07:58 PM

What I understand there is a little majority in the Greece parliament-so it looks like Greece will obey.

A Danish politician said yesterday- about 2-3 years from now, Greece will again be standing there and begging for more money.

Markus

Red Devil

07-14-15, 08:03 PM

Torplexed

07-14-15, 08:10 PM

Welcome to immortal Greece, where the party never ends.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03369/drugs_3369470k.jpg

Oberon

07-14-15, 09:07 PM

EH!

You lost me on that. We pay 14% of the EU budget - thats £77m a DAY!!!

Last year that figure was put at £55m a day, but we got a rebate on that, so the actual cost was £33m.
In return, we make about £578m a day in trade with the EU thanks to the low tariffs and restrictions between the UK and EU member states.

Of course, you could argue that we'd enjoy such rates outside of the EU...but looking at how the EU has treated Greece, I think they'd be liable to tell us where to stick our trade, and rightly so.

This isn't 1950, we're not a powerful nation anymore, we've little to no industry and barely enough money to run a health service and a military.
I don't see how the UK can be anything other than a joke outside of the EU.

Anyway, getting back to the subject at hand, it looks like the IMF has stated that it won't touch the Greek deal with a ten foot barge pole unless Germany also agrees to write off significant portions of Greek debt. It points out, and rightly so, that this bailout deal will put Greek debt at 200% of GDP which is unsustainably high and so unless large portions of this debt are written off it doesn't see how Greece can possibly meet the forecasted growth rates.
Considering part of the deal with Germany was that Greece should listen more to the IMF it's a bit tragically comic, to use Robert Prestons words:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33531743

And so, Wednesday, the dead-line day, dawns...

http://www.zeldainformer.com/2011/11/19/finalday.jpg

Jimbuna

07-15-15, 08:44 AM

^ One problem being....any debt relief for Greece wouls bring calls for equality from countries such as Italy Ireland, Spain and Portugal.

Oberon

07-15-15, 11:50 AM

^ One problem being....any debt relief for Greece wouls bring calls for equality from countries such as Italy Ireland, Spain and Portugal.

Eyup, and probably the UK too if we have any hats in the ring.
We're so deep down the rabbit hole though that the EU might well just have to do it and take the losses on the chin, because otherwise it's just a case of trying to stick fingers in the dam and hope it doesn't break.
Really and truly this crisis should be seen as a chance to rectify the problems that the start-up of the Euro created, yes there were mistakes, some very big ones, but the idea was sound, as I've stated before, single individual European states are nothing compared to the powerhouses of Russia, the US and China, but together the EU is the most powerful economic bloc in the world, with a combined GDP greater than the US.
Yes, the EU is not without its problems, but nationalistic sentiments and stubborn pride are not the way forward. :nope:

Oberon

07-15-15, 04:39 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX9IWbal5lo

Live stream of Greek parliamentary debate with English interpretation.

Oberon

07-15-15, 05:20 PM

The parliamentary debate is likely to go until midnight Brussels time in order to wiggle in a few more hours debate time.

Meanwhile in the streets of Athens...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ-guuTWgAEuhvB.jpg:large

Oberon

07-15-15, 05:37 PM

Voting will begin shortly.

EDIT: Hearing a lot of 'Nai' (Yes) in the livestream. I think this will likely pass.

Rhodes

07-15-15, 06:00 PM

148 'Nai', 45 'Oxi', 4 abst. Preliminary results or definitive?

Oberon

07-15-15, 06:02 PM

Either way I'd say it's passed.
Now we see what happens next, and how bad the situation on the ground in Athens get when they hear the news.

Torplexed

07-15-15, 09:38 PM

What a never-ending shambles. It certainly was a mistake to let Greece into the EU. It is a mistake of even more monumental proportions to try to save the Greeks from themselves.

Let them go.

Red Devil

07-16-15, 01:34 AM

What a never-ending shambles. It certainly was a mistake to let Greece into the EU. It is a mistake of even more monumental proportions to try to save the Greeks from themselves.

Let them go.

The whole EU is a mistake :down:

Schroeder

07-16-15, 03:57 AM

The whole EU is a mistake :down:
Your opinion.:03:

Though I admit that some things need to change and the local governments need to get some of the power back.

Betonov

07-16-15, 06:04 AM

The EU was far from a mistake.
A case of a serious missmanagement and an example of what happens when an economic entity enlarges itself on political and not economic grounds. Yes to that. Reforms are heavily needed.
And a rollback. The EU was never intended to become a steping stone to the federalization of Europe and the EU parliament is a dead weight.
Keep it at free trade, free flow, no borders and one currency and lett the heads of members do the problem solving.

Oberon

07-16-15, 06:06 AM

It is a mistake of even more monumental proportions to try to save the Greeks from themselves.

Let them go.

I think what's happened here is a game of bluff that's gone horrendously wrong.

I think after the Oxi vote, Tspiras was prepared to forge a deal with Germany, he was willing to play the 'madman' card, he would go to Germany and basically state that he was willing to obey the wishes of his people and take Greece out of the Eurozone and default, with all the economic trouble that would cause Germany if he did not get a better deal, but ultimately what he wanted more than anything was to secure a deal.
Germany, meanwhile, had had enough, it couldn't see any way that increasing Greeces debt was going to help it, so it was decided that they'd make Greece an offer they'd have to refuse. Set the terms so strict that Greece couldn't possibly accept them.
Only Greece did accept them, after a bit of wrangling, and now Germany has to go along with the whole bailout deal.
Of course, there is a small chance that the German parliament won't pass the bailout terms, but I strongly doubt it.

Personally, the way I'd go about it is to give Greece the bailout, but as part of a transitioned exit from the Eurozone, taking place over the course of a year, and at which point their account within the EU would be frozen, and any further money given would be in the form of aid packages, thus not requiring repayment. Greece would have twelve months to mint and print Drachmas and to prepare its internal industry and people for Grexit, a task that would be assisted by the IMF and Greece.
In regards to 'Haircuts', that's something that could be negotiated once Greece is outside the Eurozone, perhaps as a part of industrial concessions to German businesses or the like. However to help Greece with its trade (what little there is) the EU rates should be retained.