What's up with London? (riots, merged) [Archive] - Page 3

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 06:39 AM

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pm-chair-another-cobra-crisis-meeting-054620201.html

Bloody water cannon?!,they'll just laugh at that!,most of them look like they havent been washed in weeks anyway and will just take the opportunity to get a free shower!,what good will bloody water do Cameron you idiot?! they need to be met with the same level of violence as they are ruthlessly unleashing upon innocent people and their properties!
I bought The Sun newspaper (page 8) earlier and it has a few statistics of the percentage of people in the country opposed and unopposed to various methods of dealing with this crisis.They are as follows:

water cannon - 90%
tear gas - 78% <--- used in conjunction with no6 and you have a great backup support weapon against large groups of rioters heading your way
tasers - 72%
mounted police - 84%
plastic bullets - 65%
firearms/live ammunition - 33 <--- used in combination with the last option and you have a certain winner,no more rioters and people can get to sleep safely again.And I dont care about all this garbage about,oh they are just poor kids,you cant massacre kids and civilians on the streets of England,BULLS##T! ,ive had enough of them now and they need gunning down,every god damn one of them! you dont see me or anyone else currently having financial difficulties caused by this insane government resorting to this dispicable behaviour! They are taking the pi## with us,the police and our country,they think they can just do what they please when they please,and this has to STOP!
curfews - 82%
army - 77% <--- this is my favourite option,and should definitely be considered if things escalate completely out of control.Either that or say goodbye to your cities.

papa_smurf

08-10-11, 06:41 AM

Whats things like in Derbyshire,not that far from me you know.Mind you,you should be pretty safe,are you in a rural area?.

Nice and quiet, all we got to worry bout are the occasional sheep that cross the roads without warning.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 06:42 AM

All the water cannons are in Northern Ireland. ;)

Bleedin' typical! :nope:
Damn this government is flippin useless beyond comprehension!
It also comes to light too that the minister of defence has sparked outrage by taking 5 members of his staff with him on a trip to Spain,at taxpayers' expense,while the taxpayers get their properties and homes looted.
Nice one Liam Fox,you dickhead! :stare:

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 06:44 AM

Nice and quiet, all we got to worry bout are the occasional sheep that cross the roads without warning.

You got a spare room for rent?,just while this blows over hehehe :D

Sammi79

08-10-11, 07:04 AM

I bought The Sun newspaper (page 8) earlier and it has a few statistics of the percentage of people in the country opposed and unopposed to various methods of dealing with this crisis.They are as follows:

water cannon - 90%
tear gas - 78% <--- used in conjunction with no6 and you have a great backup support weapon against large groups of rioters heading your way
tasers - 72%
mounted police - 84%
plastic bullets - 65%
firearms/live ammunition - 33 <--- used in combination with the last option and you have a certain winner,no more rioters and people can get to sleep safely again.And I dont care about all this garbage about,oh they are just poor kids,you cant massacre kids and civilians on the streets of England,BULLS##T! ,ive had enough of them now and they need gunning down,every god damn one of them! you dont see me or anyone else currently having financial difficulties caused by this insane government resorting to this dispicable behaviour! They are taking the pi## with us,the police and our country,they think they can just do what they please when they please,and this has to STOP!
curfews - 82%
army - 77% <--- this is my favourite option,and should definitely be considered if things escalate completely out of control.Either that or say goodbye to your cities.

Sickened by your last post Paul Riley. :nope:

'The Sun' fascistlunaticpoisonpaper? a major cause of embarrasment for Britain and British people the world over. Everything single thing they write should be considered at the very least inflammatory, manipulative and untrue. Tabloids like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

First of all, 2500ish people is not representative of British society, though maybe of the collective total of brain cells that sun readers have between them. Secondly, plastic bullets = firearms/live ammunition. Shows something about the (lack of) intelligence behind this poll.

Bringing in the Army is not an option. The army is deployed already. Unless you're arguing that we bring them back now, that I would agree with.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:07 AM

Sickened by your last post Paul Riley. :nope:

'The Sun' fascistlunaticpoisonpaper? a major cause of embarrasment for Britain and British people the world over. Everything single thing they write should be considered at the very least inflammatory, manipulative and untrue. Tabloids like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

First of all, 2500ish people is not representative of British society, though maybe of the collective total of brain cells that sun readers have between them. Secondly, plastic bullets = firearms/live ammunition. Shows something about the (lack of) intelligence behind this poll.

Bringing in the Army is not an option. The army is deployed already. Unless you're arguing that we bring them back now, that I would agree with.

I dont care what you think,i'm bloody sick of this and its about time some of you grew a god damn spine! do you know what it feels like to live in fear in your own home and then to not get help when you desperately need it? do you know how many people have been left homeless and beaten because of this?!, do you?! :stare:
How dare you even question what I wrote,its scandalous and the full weight of the law needs crashing down on this vermin now!
You know its people like you that are also part of this problem,you and the bloody rioters.My mother is terrified because of this and so many other residents on my street!.
You are going straight onto my ignore list now.Good day!

Skybird

08-10-11, 07:15 AM

A German comment (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article13536948/Pluenderer-sehen-sich-als-Opfer-zu-Unrecht.html)that is spot on and that does not excuse the criminality seen on the streets as "social uprise of the disadvantaged", but concludes that it is laziness and comfortable self-victimization that lead to the illusion that one does not have to put own effort into trying to acchieve something in life, but that the others, that the state, thge the society is owing to oneself and thus and that one does not steal when one steals because one has a legimtimate natural right for it anyway. Why should anyone try to imorve his own situation and claim responsibility for his own life, if the fincial suzpport fro social wellfare is comiung in every month anyway, and just complaining and claiming to be a victim is so much easier than accepting responsibility and getting involved oneself in imporviong one'S own situation?

It is no just an uprise of the socially disadvantaged, but an amok run of people making too high claims towards society and who want to fall upwards without themselves contriobutijng to it by their own work and effort. It is no social revolutionaries, but criminals we see on the street. It is no call for social justice, but demand for being given even more social wellfare and additonal, non-vital luxury - for free.

Self-victimization is a great way of pushing the other on the defence. And we see it being used as a tactic so very often today. Migrants refusing to integrate, do it. Muslim communities use it. Socially parasytes do it. European nations in debt use it. Intzerest grouip and social "equal rights" groups use it. They all raise claims that they are being owed something by all others, due to their state of being "victims" of circumstances and present codnitioons. And mostly, none of them shows in return the solidarity they demand from others. And usually, none of them plans to ever question and change himself.

Riots like this, they say, are nothing new in Britain, and that there were such things already in the 80s. I saw looting, crminality, theft and robbery. What I did not see so far, is legitimate social uprise against injustice and supression. I say crack down on this criminal mob. It is not any different to the street wars we see in Berlin every year on May 1st. And those thugs in Berlin do not have any social ideal or agenda they fight for, although they claim that and try to hide their anarchy and thirst for violence and "action" as a "social revolution" - what they have, is just a hobby. It's called live action-entertainment.

I laugh right in the faces of these thugs, with this song video (http://www.directlyrics.com/amy-macdonald-this-pretty-face-lyrics.html).

Hottentot

08-10-11, 07:18 AM

I dont care what you think

How dare you even question what I wrote

You are going straight onto my ignore list now.Good day!

Now there's a surprise.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:24 AM

A German comment (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article13536948/Pluenderer-sehen-sich-als-Opfer-zu-Unrecht.html)that is spot on and that does not excuse the criminality seen on the streets as "social uprise of the disadvantaged", but concludes that it is laziness and comfortable self-victimization that lead to the illusion that one does not have to put own effort into trying to acchieve something in life, but that the others, that the state, thge the society is owing to oneself and thus and that one does not steal when one steals because one has a legimtimate natural right for it anyway. Why should anyone try to imorve his own situation and claim responsibility for his own life, if the fincial suzpport fro social wellfare is comiung in every month anyway, and just complaining and claiming to be a victim is so much easier than accepting responsibility and getting involved oneself in imporviong one'S own situation?

It is no just an uprise of the socially disadvantaged, but an amok run of people making too high claims towards society and who want to fall upwards without themselves contriobutijng to it by their own work and effort. It is no social revolutionaries, but criminals we see on the street. It is no call for social justice, but demand for being given even more social wellfare and additonal, non-vital luxury - for free.

Self-victimization is a great way of pushing the other on the defence. And we see it being used as a tactic so very often today. Migrants refusing to integrate, do it. Muslim communities use it. Socially parasytes do it. European nations in debt use it. Intzerest grouip and social "equal rights" groups use it. They all raise claims that they are being owed something by all others, due to their state of being "victims" of circumstances and present codnitioons. And mostly, none of them shows in return the solidarity they demand from others. And usually, none of them plans to ever question and change himself.

Riots like this, they say, are nothing new in Britain, and that there were such things already in the 80s. I saw looting, crminality, theft and robbery. I say crack down on this criminal mob. It is not any different to the street wars we see in Berlin every year on May 1st. And those thugs in Berlin do not have any social ideal or agenda they fight for, althoiugh they claim that and try to hide their anarchy as a social revolution - what they have, is just a hobby. It's called live action-entertainment.

I laugh right in the faces of these thugs, with this song video (http://www.directlyrics.com/amy-macdonald-this-pretty-face-lyrics.html).

Hi,

I hate them,just as much as I hate some of the sympathizers for them in this forum.People are terrified (especially the elderly residents) to go outside on my street do you know that?,thats just plain wrong if you ask me :damn:
There should be extreme force used in this extreme case,its not right that people have to live in fear in a developed country like ours.

Skybird

08-10-11, 07:27 AM

Hi,

I hate them,just as much as I hate some of the sympathizers for them in this forum.People are terrified to go outside on my street do you know that?,thats just plain wrong if you ask me :damn:
There should be extreme force used in this extreme case,its not right that people have to live in fear in a developed country like ours.
You sound a bit over-"emotionalised", if I may say so. Hate is not needed, nor any good. Determination is absolutely sufficient - that, and some delighted enthusiasm to re-establish the law.:salute:

max-peck

08-10-11, 07:28 AM

How dare you even question what I wrote

Really?

max-peck

08-10-11, 07:29 AM

but concludes that it is laziness and comfortable self-victimization that lead to the illusion that one does not have to put own effort into trying to acchieve something in life

And that is absolutely spot on.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:33 AM

You know,to those of you that have undermined,ridiculed,flamed and insulted me over the last few days I hope the rioters kick off in your neighbourhoods,drag you out into the street and kick your bloody heads in!,maybe then you will see sense,but I doubt even that could trigger the growth of brain cellls in your thick skulls!
This is outrageous that some of you even question what i'm saying during this tense time for law abiding English people,you have no shame,no decency,no balls and no brains!

You make me sick and I curse you!

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:34 AM

Really?

Yes,and?,what you going to do about it? do YOU have a problem with me too?.You enjoying these riots are you?,you enjoying what they are doing to people's lives?! you sick tw##s!
To even undermine the severity in this crisis only goes to show that some of you dont deserve to live in countries like ours,it makes me sick!

*thats another one to the ignore list*

Hottentot

08-10-11, 07:38 AM

do YOU have a problem with me too?.You enjoying these riots are you?

Newsflash: You and the Riots are not synonymous. The riots, neither England, neither the world revolve around you.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:39 AM

Newsflash: You and the Riots are not synonymous. The riots, neither England, neither the world revolve around you.

Kiss my a#s you little s##t! :x

Growler

08-10-11, 07:39 AM

Paul -

Ease down, lad. You're becoming very emotionally invested in this, and while, on some levels, it's understandable, you're rapidly leaving reason behind.

I understand that you're scared - a lot of people in Britain are upset, nervous, and yes, scared right now. But responding and reacting from fear is not going to help the situation at all.

Deep breaths, now. Your city and neighbors need strength in rationality, not reactionism.

max-peck

08-10-11, 07:41 AM

Yes,and?,what you going to do about it?

Absolutely nothing.

That response sounds like you want to fight me or something.

Certainly not what I want.

Remember the conversation we had yesterday about calming down and not panicking?

But demanding that people aren't even allowed to question some of your assertions is a little bit over the top isn't it?

Hottentot

08-10-11, 07:41 AM

Kiss my a#s you little s##t! :x

First of all, I'm by no means little.

Second, your fantasies do not apply to me.

Third, as I suspected, your ignore list is not working.

Fourth, and I repeat: the world does not revolve around you, as much as you'd apparently like to think.

Lord Justice

08-10-11, 07:44 AM

Yes,and?,what you going to do about it? do YOU have a problem with me too?.You enjoying these riots are you?,you enjoying what they are doing to people's lives?! you sick tw##s!
Paul, try take it easy man. I do understand your concerns, and I am sensible to your feelings. :cool:

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:46 AM

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:48 AM

Paul, try take it easy man. I do understand your concerns, and I am sensible to your feelings. :cool:

I'm just fed up of it,and i'm fed up of these morons taking the p#ss all the time while I get left feeling like its all my bloody fault.
All I can say is they had better not come on our street tonight,i'll grab the nearest blunt object I can find.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:50 AM

Absolutely nothing.

That response sounds like you want to fight me or something.

Certainly not what I want.

Remember the conversation we had yesterday about calming down and not panicking?

But demanding that people aren't even allowed to question some of your assertions is a little bit over the top isn't it?

Nobody seems to care,and thats the problem.
I dont want to fight you,I want to fight those causig all this.
Sorry,I misjudged you.

Dowly

08-10-11, 07:52 AM

Nobody seems to care,and thats the problem.

Eh.. just because everyone isn't siding with you in shooting the lot, doesn't mean
no one cares. ;)

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:53 AM

Absolutely nothing.

That response sounds like you want to fight me or something.

Certainly not what I want.

Remember the conversation we had yesterday about calming down and not panicking?

But demanding that people aren't even allowed to question some of your assertions is a little bit over the top isn't it?

I'm not demanding,i'm asking that people be more sensitive instead of mocking all the time.Those that continue to mock had better pray the riots dont end up in their countries or cities,thats all I can say,as I for one wont be offering them any sympathy.

Lord Justice

08-10-11, 07:57 AM

I'm just fed up of it,and i'm fed up of these morons taking the p#ss all the time while I get left feeling like its all my bloody fault.
You are being tormented with some embarrassments which other members are wickedly leaving you to struggle with. Try rise above it, you have other matters for concern more immediate. :yep:

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 07:57 AM

First of all, I'm by no means little.

Second, your fantasies do not apply to me.

Third, as I suspected, your ignore list is not working.

Fourth, and I repeat: the world does not revolve around you, as much as you'd apparently like to think.

Fantasies?,we'll see about that,because if any damage comes to my street tonight and anyone gets hurt i'll pray that your country is on the list next,and you are caught up in it personally! just watch what you say to me pal.

Growler

08-10-11, 07:58 AM

My mother has been crying today,and with my father being in a care home I am limited in the amount of comfort I can offer her :nope:

Then it's ever more important that you maintain your composure - you will be of far more comfort to her that way than any other. I would wager that your current state may be contributing to her upset, rather than easing it.

Think on it: your unstable emotional state is being reflected outside your window by others who are equally unstable right now. Which would you rather have in your home with your mum? Both of your parents need you to be strong right now, not emotionally labile.

Hottentot

08-10-11, 07:59 AM

Fantasies?,we'll see about that,because if any damage comes to my street tonight and anyone gets hurt i'll pray that your country is on the list next,and you are caught up in it personally! just watch what you say to me pal.

Proof once more of what I just said. Do I need to say for the third time that you are not the same as the riots?

Oberon

08-10-11, 08:00 AM

Oh for heavens sake, you're making this sound like it's the bloody Egyptian revolution. Dave is just playing the political game, trying to make himself popular with the people by saying that he will permit baton rounds and water cannons to be used. None of the police forces in the UK at this time think that either are actually needed or are in fact useful.

THESE ARE MOBILE RIOTS! They will spring up in one area, and as soon as the police arrive, they disperse into side streets and disappear to another area. Water Cannons will not work against mobile rioting, Baton rounds will not work against mobile rioting. The only use the Army could serve is possibly using UAVs and/or attack helos to track the rioters from scene to scene and guide the police in, however it would be a bloody logistical and communications nightmare. I mean it's difficult on a good day to get one branch of the armed forces to talk to another. Dave is just politicking and trying to appear the hard man while the real people actually know what they're doing, and the only real thing they can do is try to protect certain areas in force.

Paul, if you want to live in a country where people on the street are gunned down by the military so much then I suggest that you move to Syria. Until then just keep your head down and get on with life like everyone else in Britain is having to do. Panicking will solve nothing. :nope:

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 08:01 AM

You are being tormented with some embarrassments which other members are wickedly leaving you to struggle with. Try rise above it, you have other matters for concern more immediate. :yep:

They ARE wicked,you are right,and they should be on the recieving ends of all this,not decent people trying to COMBAT it!
Whats with these bloody Finnish people anyway?,taking the pi##,who the bloody hell are they to challenge me during this time? its ok for them sat on their bloody icebox,come down here and face what WE have to face! we'll see how arrogant and smug they are then.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 08:02 AM

I'm seriously considering leaving Subsim,I will have to wait and see.

Takeda Shingen

08-10-11, 08:04 AM

Paul Riley, maybe you should take some time away from the thread. You seem to be a little too invested in this topic, and it is bound to get you in trouble here. Besides, if things are as dire as you say, you can certainly find a more productive outlet for your efforts offline.

The Management

Hottentot

08-10-11, 08:07 AM

Whats with these bloody Finnish people anyway?,taking the pi##,who the bloody hell are they to challenge me during this time? its ok for them sat on their bloody icebox,come down here and face what WE have to face! we'll see how arrogant and smug they are then.

Noted.

Growler

08-10-11, 08:08 AM

I'm seriously considering leaving Subsim,I will have to wait and see.

Maybe for the day or so, that wouldn't be a bad thing. You're clearly upset, and there's little anyone here can apparently do to help; rather, it seems to be making you even more upset.

Members come and go on forums all the time. I find it interesting that you're choosing to dwell extensively on those who disagree with you, rather than moving on to something less combative. You've enough fight outside your home to be inviting this one into it.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 08:11 AM

Maybe for the day or so, that wouldn't be a bad thing. You're clearly upset, and there's little anyone here can apparently do to help; rather, it seems to be making you even more upset.

Members come and go on forums all the time. I find it interesting that you're choosing to dwell extensively on those who disagree with you, rather than moving on to something less combative. You've enough fight outside your home to be inviting this one into it.

You're the only one thats made any sense SO far.
I think they actually enjoy winding people up,it seems to indicate insecurity or gaps in THEIR lives too.
You're right,I am to blame,for biting back all the time,I dont know why i've done it thus far.This time I really AM going to ignore their posts,I gave them a chance last time and opened a few of their *hidden* posts up out of curiosity,only to find the same cr#p as before.

Thanks.

Dowly

08-10-11, 08:17 AM

I think they actually enjoy winding people up,it seems to indicate insecurity or gaps in THEIR lives too.

Wind you up? You're doing that quite well all by yourself. ;)

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 08:21 AM

Wind you up? You're doing that quite well all by yourself. ;)

Fine.
I'll be even more wound up if the Huns go on the rampage here in Sheffield tonight.

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 08:22 AM

Paul....go to your PM box and read the last message I sent you and carefully consider your next move.

Respectfully
Jim

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 08:52 AM

You sound a bit over-"emotionalised", if I may say so. Hate is not needed, nor any good. Determination is absolutely sufficient - that, and some delighted enthusiasm to re-establish the law.:salute:

Is not 'enthusiasm' and 'determination' components of or the foundations of 'extremism' though?.Not that I have much of a problem with this during specific conditions,its far better than sitting on your behind while the mob happily rob and beat you without resistance.Even a rat will viciously defend its own life when threatened by animals much larger and fiercer than themselves.

Tribesman

08-10-11, 08:56 AM

Really hope they are tactical firearms teams Jim,because I fear tonight is going to be hell for a lot of people,including the police
Young man, rain is forcast isn't it, that is normally enough to stop young British people rioting so it isn't going to be hell tonight and as a bonus the farmers and gardeners will be mightily pleased with the precipitation.

nikimcbee

08-10-11, 08:56 AM

@ Jim
I trust everything is okay in your neck of the woods.:hmmm:

Herr-Berbunch

08-10-11, 09:23 AM

If you're still here Paul here's a South Yorkshire Police's latest tweets -

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6168/syptweet.jpg

Going back further than my screenshot, the only trouble last night seemed to be six bins on fire in Donny. Dowly was elsewhere so it was just Donny kids doing what Donny kids do.

Dowly

08-10-11, 09:31 AM

1444: Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond
says 250 police officers have been dispatched from Scotland to the Midlands
and the north of England to help combat rioting and disorder.
He added there are 17,000 officers available for duty in Scotland tonight, in
case violence breaks out.

:yeah:

Herr_Pete

08-10-11, 09:54 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm

Morons....

Oberon

08-10-11, 09:55 AM

He added there are 17,000 officers available for duty in Scotland tonight, in case violence breaks out. But would anyone notice? :O:

Herr_Pete

08-10-11, 09:57 AM

But would anyone notice? :O:

The awkward moment when Scottish people are good examples for behaviour.

Oberon

08-10-11, 10:01 AM

The awkward moment when Scottish people are good examples for behaviour.

Oh, you can hear the gloating coming over the border :haha::03:

papa_smurf

08-10-11, 10:04 AM

Oh, you can hear the gloating coming over the border :haha::03:

The smug gits must be enjoying this.

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 10:06 AM

@ Jim
I trust everything is okay in your neck of the woods.:hmmm:

Yeah pretty quiet here Jason but as has already been demonstrated, the scene can change location in a mater of a few hours.

Herr-Berbunch

08-10-11, 10:08 AM

They're just amazed it's taken us this long to catch up. :03:

I reserve the right to take the piss. Scotland is really beautiful - well the bits I have seen are.

AVGWarhawk

08-10-11, 10:12 AM

What will the rioting solve anyway?

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 10:38 AM

Spoke to an ex-colleague/friend this morning and he informed me one of the local Tactical Riot Squads (35 crazies and some of whom I had trained briefly with in the past) have been transferred to Manchester today.

I've wished them well but part of me is worrying more than a little bit.

Really hope they are tactical firearms teams Jim,because I fear tonight is going to be hell for a lot of people,including the police. I just cant understand why this lame country is so opposed to using even rubber bullets when these filthy animals are ruthlessly assaulting,maiming and looting at will :nope:
Last night the police said they will fight fire with fire,and the order to shoot has not been ruled out yet.I dearly hope they 'stick to their guns'

Sorry Paul, just realised you responded.

These guys are trained in the techniques of the snatch squad, sometimes referred to as 'the crazies'......forming a v-formation behind the front line, the line approaches the naughty folk and suddenly opens a gap about six people wide, the formation of twelve rush through closely followed by another twelve, the lead formation grab the leader or person of most immediate threat and bring them back behind the front line, the following twelve cover their backs and keep the exit route clear.

If this is indeed how they are to be utilised it leads me to believe that the authorities are going to get a bit tougher in their response methods.

Betonov

08-10-11, 10:44 AM

What will the rioting solve anyway?

Today, nothing I guess.

In the old days riots were used to strike fear into leaders. Old ancient fammilies, clinging to thrones and fearing the breaking of the bloodline. First there were dissidents, but those could be arrested, then there were riots and rioteers just couldn't be arrested. Too many of them to handle and putting half a town into prison would strain the economy and show a weakness to enemies. Next step then is revolution. It forced leaders into some liberal decisions we take for granted today.
Today, well, we have leaders that are here only for the benefit of power. Grab what you can and run when the term is over. They don't see farther then the next four years, no legacy of the name, of bloodline. So there's a riot because of you, well, that only means you'll just end the mandate with a fat bank account and a legacy for your successor to clean up.
Plus the people today are in a terminal state of political apathy. No one cares anymore. My parents had a dream in 1991 and they fought for it. My generation has no dream. Quick euro for a drink and a job with the lowest amount of responsibility. Last years riots against reforms in student labor were alcohol motivated, not because people actually came to voice the opinion. It was the same in London, some people went to voice their grief over an issue and hooligans hijacked for their material benefit. In the eighties thousands would protest the goverment in Belgrade and demand independence and some unwanted elements would use the occasion to loot, but they were small in numbers and quickly subdued by the protesters themselves. The problem today is the hooligans outnumber the activists by hundreds.

STEED

08-10-11, 11:00 AM

What will the rioting solve anyway?

NOT A DAMN THING!

SWEET FA.

Paul Riley

08-10-11, 11:00 AM

Sorry Paul, just realised you responded.

These guys are trained in the techniques of the snatch squad, sometimes referred to as 'the crazies'......forming a v-formation behind the front line, the line approaches the naughty folk and suddenly opens a gap about six people wide, the formation of twelve rush through closely followed by another twelve, the lead formation grab the leader or person of most immediate threat and bring them back behind the front line, the following twelve cover their backs and keep the exit route clear.

If this is indeed how they are to be utilised it leads me to believe that the authorities are going to get a bit tougher in their response methods.

Sounds like the classic 'wedge formation' used by many ancient armies,to break through enemy formations,only this time it is used to move forward,capture,and bring back through the front line...nice :cool:

Penguin

08-10-11, 11:20 AM

sorry guys for the wall of text - but I have to answer Skybird ;)

A German comment (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article13536948/Pluenderer-sehen-sich-als-Opfer-zu-Unrecht.html)that is spot on

As someone who is able to read the article, I feel obliged to reply:
No it is not spot on, only 60% right, like most from "Die Welt" :O:

Das Problem ist nur, dass die Soziologisierung der britischen Unruhen zwangsweise auch ein Element der Entschuldung beinhaltet. Denn wer die Ereignisse erklärbar macht, macht sie in gewisser Weise auch entschuldbar

translation:
The problem only is, that the "sociologization" (explanation by sociology) of the British unrest neccessarily includes an element of apology. As someone who makes the events explainable, in some way makes them also excusable.
Sorry, Clemens Wergin, this is complete cowcrap! Looking for explanations is a whole different thing than looking for excuses and/or raising sympathies. Not only in sociology, also in psychology or criminology. Anybody who looks for causes of criminal behaviour excuses it, because he looks for an explanation? Laughable!

and that does not excuse the criminality seen on the streets as "social uprise of the disadvantaged", but concludes that it is laziness and comfortable self-victimization that lead to the illusion that one does not have to put own effort into trying to acchieve something in life, but that the others, that the state, thge the society is owing to oneself and thus and that one does not steal when one steals because one has a legimtimate natural right for it anyway.

I agree with you that the rioters are ordinary criminals. BUT: how do our governments treat criminals when they have enough money? They pump billions into organizations which never gave anything back to society when they were on the winning streak. The neocon capitalism gratifies the same antisocial behaviour that the looters show: the strongest with the biggest ellbows gets the most. Learned behaviour? Of course it's not that simple. But an irate feeling is understandable when you take a look at where budget cuts happen, while on the other hands billions are thrown out of the window to save our idiotic monetary system.

Why should anyone try to imorve his own situation and claim responsibility for his own life, if the fincial suzpport fro social wellfare is comiung in every month anyway, and just complaining and claiming to be a victim is so much easier than accepting responsibility and getting involved oneself in imporviong one'S own situation?

Short answer: because it sucks to be poor.

longer:
By this you imply that anybody can break the vicious circle by himself. That is wrong, however this also touches the old question how much (social) circumstances shape you. Absoluties are wrong in this case. You are neither paralyzed by them, nor can you deny an influence.
And this is something people from the middle-class do not seem to get. Not everybody gets aided by their family to thrive for knowledge. When I had a discussion with collegues about people if people choose to stay dumb, I talked about sociopathic parents who beat the crap out of their kids when they want to become something better than their loser parents. I only earned uneasy laughter, as if I was telling a strange joke.
Excuses? No, only a description.

Self-victimization is a great way of pushing the other on the defence. And we see it being used as a tactic so very often today. Migrants refusing to integrate, do it. Muslim communities use it. Socially parasytes do it. European nations in debt use it. Intzerest grouip and social "equal rights" groups use it. They all raise claims that they are being owed something by all others, due to their state of being "victims" of circumstances and present codnitioons. And mostly, none of them shows in return the solidarity they demand from others. And usually, none of them plans to ever question and change himself.

I ignore the (obligatory?) muslim rant and the equalization of humans with animals and give you right a second time (yay!:DL)
People learn to exploit such behaviour, but the people who tolerate this, due to a feeling of gult or whatever, are just as guilty.
Personally, I can't stand this "You are against me, just because I am ____ :wah: " attitude. Of course prejudice and racism exists, but one has to face it and not whine about it. Using it for your advantage only makes you the same moron as the people who judge you by your appearance.

AVGWarhawk

08-10-11, 11:29 AM

Today, nothing I guess.

In the old days riots were used to strike fear into leaders. Old ancient fammilies, clinging to thrones and fearing the breaking of the bloodline. First there were dissidents, but those could be arrested, then there were riots and rioteers just couldn't be arrested. Too many of them to handle and putting half a town into prison would strain the economy and show a weakness to enemies. Next step then is revolution. It forced leaders into some liberal decisions we take for granted today.
Today, well, we have leaders that are here only for the benefit of power. Grab what you can and run when the term is over. They don't see farther then the next four years, no legacy of the name, of bloodline. So there's a riot because of you, well, that only means you'll just end the mandate with a fat bank account and a legacy for your successor to clean up.
Plus the people today are in a terminal state of political apathy. No one cares anymore. My parents had a dream in 1991 and they fought for it. My generation has no dream. Quick euro for a drink and a job with the lowest amount of responsibility. Last years riots against reforms in student labor were alcohol motivated, not because people actually came to voice the opinion. It was the same in London, some people went to voice their grief over an issue and hooligans hijacked for their material benefit. In the eighties thousands would protest the goverment in Belgrade and demand independence and some unwanted elements would use the occasion to loot, but they were small in numbers and quickly subdued by the protesters themselves. The problem today is the hooligans outnumber the activists by hundreds.

It would seem this is a exercise in futility and just a way to blow off steam.

Betonov

08-10-11, 11:32 AM

It would seem this is a exercise in futility and just a way to blow off steam.

If you mean me typing this, then you're right

Alex

08-10-11, 12:03 PM

At least it shows that sort of stuff doesn't happen only in the city of light. :roll:
But I certainly didn't think these riots would ever take place in the UK.

nikimcbee

08-10-11, 12:18 PM

Yeah pretty quiet here Jason but as has already been demonstrated, the scene can change location in a mater of a few hours.

Well, Jim, if England gets to be too dangerous, you can come over and visit me. I'll have a keg of Newcastle waiting for you.:woot:

offer open to herr berr, oberon, and even...steed:D

AVGWarhawk

08-10-11, 12:33 PM

If you mean me typing this, then you're right

No, the riots! :haha:

AVGWarhawk

08-10-11, 12:34 PM

Tribesman

08-10-11, 12:44 PM

Well, Jim, if England gets to be too dangerous
That will neveer happen.
If you look at it the people up in Jims direction they have a well tried way of getting people to get along and to diffuse potential violent confrontation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJzPXzcF_g&feature=player_embedded

nikimcbee

08-10-11, 12:50 PM

You will need a spot under your bed for Jim's diecast aircraft. :up:

You mean warehouse? I'm more worries about Jim's drinking tab.:o:shucks:

nikimcbee

08-10-11, 12:52 PM

That will neveer happen.
If you look at it the people up in Jims direction they have a well tried way of getting people to get along and to diffuse potential violent confrontation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJzPXzcF_g&feature=player_embedded

:har::yeah:

Tribesman

08-10-11, 01:01 PM

I'm more worries about Jim's drinking tab.
His cigarette drinks?

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 01:06 PM

Well, Jim, if England gets to be too dangerous, you can come over and visit me. I'll have a keg of Newcastle waiting for you.:woot:

offer open to herr berr, oberon, and even...steed:D

You do know the other three are 'southerners' :hmmm:

You will need a spot under your bed for Jim's diecast aircraft. :up:

Four more this week (celebrating a week off work) :03:

That will neveer happen.
If you look at it the people up in Jims direction they have a well tried way of getting people to get along and to diffuse potential violent confrontation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJzPXzcF_g&feature=player_embedded

LOL first time I've seen that :har:

Egan

08-10-11, 01:18 PM

Oh, you can hear the gloating coming over the border :haha::03:

The smug gits must be enjoying this.

:yeah:

You're even making the Northern Irish look like saints - and it's marching season!

To be fair, I'd love to be on that street when a bunch of your 'soft southern chavs' decide to cheek some of Strathclyde's finest.

Anyways, the footballs on. Slange!

BossMark

08-10-11, 01:38 PM

Well to be honest how these riots have spread I am quite surprised certain parts of Leeds and Bradford haven't seen anything yet :hmmm:

Dowly

08-10-11, 01:48 PM

Iranian press say the UK has been too tough on the rioters, who it
portrays as citizens protesting against poor living conditions and police
mistreatment.

The Iranian government, usually at the receiving end of criticism for its
treatment of demonstrators, was quick to condemn what it said was police
brutality against innocent individuals

Press TV cites Mohammad Karim Abedi, the vice-chairman of the
parliamentary committee, as urging London "to order the police to stop
treating protesters violently".:haha:

sidslotm

08-10-11, 02:06 PM

The health of any Nation depends on our consent to live together, the right to disagree, or debate, to ensure that right is done. This generation does not want to obey law, you only have to look while driving, people on cell phones while they drive, it's all ages and all types of people ignoring a law they know full well to be right. So what to do, I know of nothing else that will help the law breaker understand we live by concent, "you don't steel and we will not punish you"

http://www.corpun.com/manx.htm

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7295/manxq.jpg

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 02:53 PM

Well to be honest how these riots have spread I am quite surprised certain parts of Leeds and Bradford haven't seen anything yet :hmmm:

That is simply because they are not racially motivated but more along the lines of being opportunist criminality.

Betonov

08-10-11, 03:13 PM

That is simply because they are not racially motivated but more along the lines of being opportunist criminality.

sums up what 3/4 of the thread was about :doh:

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 03:19 PM

sums up what 3/4 of the thread was about :doh:

Yes, I'd have to agree with you there.

Egan

08-10-11, 03:20 PM

As disagreeable as I found most of his views, I hope Paul is alright and he's using his enforced time out to chill a little. He seemed to have taken the whole thing rather personally. It wasn't healthy, to be honest. I hope he gets some sleep and just rests his head a little.

Are things quieter tonight then? I haven't been watching the news much today, other than catching that horrible story about the three brummie guys being deliberately run over during the riots there last night. I don't even know what to say about that...

nikimcbee

08-10-11, 03:38 PM

You do know the other three are 'southerners' :hmmm:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg220/scaled.php?server=220&filename=3hillbillies.jpg&res=medium

Hair Berbunch and Steed?
http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/images2/hillbillies.gif

Oh, wait...

Jimbuna

08-10-11, 03:47 PM

LMAO :har:

Skybird

08-10-11, 03:48 PM

German online newspaper "Die Welt" reports that Britons prepare for the events now by supplying themselves with everything that can hit, stab, poke and crack open. British Amazon, so says "Die Welt", reports that nine of the top ten of the currently most sold articles are items that could be used as hitting or stabbing weapons, amongst those nine top seller are four different models of baseball bats alone.

I assume the other five top seller are hammers and axes!?

:D

Well, now they are really going for it, eh? Those Klingons know no jokes when it comes to hacking and slicing!

Edit: P.S.
Aluminium baseball bats are the most popular, followed by telescope Tonfas and army folding shovels, they write.

Betonov

08-10-11, 03:52 PM

Those Klingons know no jokes when it comes to hacking and slicing!

Worf: asimilate this (just before shooting a borg)

Oberon

08-10-11, 04:27 PM

No riots around here, busiest this place gets is during the carnival...which...just...happens to be on Monday. Be very surprised if anything untoward happens during it...well...more than usual anyway.

jumpy

08-10-11, 05:07 PM

good to hear that it's quite on your front.
too bad some people don't riot on your arsehole neighbours face...:x

I also wanted give you kudos for your post #72 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1724351&postcount=72
A very well to read description of the social situation in Britain and a great analysis of the motives without a glorification. Well done, Sir! :up:

The only thing which I think is more extreme than I have noticed from previous British riots, is the sheer amount of torched buildings.

Ta, mate - I only tell it like I see it for the most part.

Really hope they are tactical firearms teams

no, no, no, no.

I bought The Sun newspaper

no, no, no, no.

I dont care what you think,i'm bloody sick of this and its about time some of you grew a god damn spine! do you know what it feels like to live in fear in your own home and then to not get help when you desperately need it? do you know how many people have been left homeless and beaten because of this?!, do you?! :stare:
How dare you even question what I wrote,its scandalous and the full weight of the law needs crashing down on this vermin now!
You know its people like you that are also part of this problem,you and the bloody rioters.My mother is terrified because of this and so many other residents on my street!.
You are going straight onto my ignore list now.Good day!

To be fair, you give people every right to question you, given your overall tone.

You know,to those of you that have undermined,ridiculed,flamed and insulted me over the last few days I hope the rioters kick off in your neighbourhoods,drag you out into the street and kick your bloody heads in!,maybe then you will see sense,but I doubt even that could trigger the growth of brain cellls in your thick skulls!
This is outrageous that some of you even question what i'm saying during this tense time for law abiding English people,you have no shame,no decency,no balls and no brains!

You make me sick and I curse you!

Yes,and?,what you going to do about it? do YOU have a problem with me too?.You enjoying these riots are you?,you enjoying what they are doing to people's lives?! you sick tw##s!
To even undermine the severity in this crisis only goes to show that some of you dont deserve to live in countries like ours,it makes me sick!

*thats another one to the ignore list*

The way you say it you sound no better than some of the people on telly earlier - vigilantism is the price of your vehemence mate, sorry to say.

Kiss my a#s you little s##t! :x

Just going too far now mate - I know you've already been binned for a few days because of it, but I must add my support to the actions of the moderators in this matter. I'll not be commenting further on this myself, after this post.

Paul -

Ease down, lad. You're becoming very emotionally invested in this, and while, on some levels, it's understandable, you're rapidly leaving reason behind.

I understand that you're scared - a lot of people in Britain are upset, nervous, and yes, scared right now. But responding and reacting from fear is not going to help the situation at all.

Deep breaths, now. Your city and neighbors need strength in rationality, not reactionism.

Agreed.

Fantasies?,we'll see about that,because if any damage comes to my street tonight and anyone gets hurt i'll pray that your country is on the list next,and you are caught up in it personally! just watch what you say to me pal.

Which ever way I look at it, that's not pretty at all - I gave you the benefit of the doubt to begin with, but you don't really deserve another chance for me to listen to what you have to say anymore 'post-moderation'.

Oh for heavens sake, you're making this sound like it's the bloody Egyptian revolution. Dave is just playing the political game, trying to make himself popular with the people by saying that he will permit baton rounds and water cannons to be used. None of the police forces in the UK at this time think that either are actually needed or are in fact useful.

THESE ARE MOBILE RIOTS! They will spring up in one area, and as soon as the police arrive, they disperse into side streets and disappear to another area. Water Cannons will not work against mobile rioting, Baton rounds will not work against mobile rioting. The only use the Army could serve is possibly using UAVs and/or attack helos to track the rioters from scene to scene and guide the police in, however it would be a bloody logistical and communications nightmare. I mean it's difficult on a good day to get one branch of the armed forces to talk to another. Dave is just politicking and trying to appear the hard man while the real people actually know what they're doing, and the only real thing they can do is try to protect certain areas in force.

Paul, if you want to live in a country where people on the street are gunned down by the military so much then I suggest that you move to Syria. Until then just keep your head down and get on with life like everyone else in Britain is having to do. Panicking will solve nothing. :nope:

Well said.

I have battled my entire life over what my vocation in life should be and I think working with the police is for me,on some level at least.
Maybe Jim may be able to shed some light on things you will need to work for them?

Sorry to make it sound so crass, but I wager jim would suggest that the ability to remain clam when under pressure is at least one of the qualities required to work for the police, either as an officer or as control-room/support staff - One of my mum's neighbours works on the emergency calls and some of the stuff she has to deal with requires a very calm and rational disposition.
So, on a personal note - I'd recommend you choose a career that involves as little stress as possible, purely on the basis of your tirade here where your only influence is to slightly annoy a few of the members - I'd not like to see a meltdown were you to have a position of responsibility for public safety. Sorry, but I just don't see that being a good idea, I really don't.

As disagreeable as I found most of his views, I hope Paul is alright and he's using his enforced time out to chill a little. He seemed to have taken the whole thing rather personally. It wasn't healthy, to be honest. I hope he gets some sleep and just rests his head a little.

Are things quieter tonight then? I haven't been watching the news much today, other than catching that horrible story about the three brummie guys being deliberately run over during the riots there last night. I don't even know what to say about that...

So do I. For all he spazzed out, I'd not wish him ill for it.

As for me, I don't really have anything more to add to the discussion of these disturbances - I think I said it all already a good few pages back.
Local news shows some smallish disturbance last night - smashed windows in town, a dozen or so arrests and tonight offers a stronger police presence (I've seen worse after a bad football match) - our city will not be loaning other forces our officers. On the way home tonight there were a few sirens and there's more police visible about the place. With any luck things will not get too out of hand.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Riot-police-fight-contain-yobs/story-13104053-detail/story.html

Ignore the comments; predictably they contain no fresh insight to what has been plastered over our tv screens all day anyway.

I may have a wander into town tomorrow to see the results for myself, lend a hand cleaning up maybe, who knows? It might all be over bar the shouting by tomorrow - especially as it's now raining here :roll:

flatsixes

08-10-11, 05:42 PM

Hmmmm... Yet another revolting development. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904006104576499631544932082.html?m od=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond)

"People are saying it's a race issue now—blacks against Asians," said Mykel Douglas, a black youth worker and resident of Winson Green, the working-class district northwest of Birmingham city center where the incident occurred. "It's like the ethnic groups are at war with each other."

I've seen this before. Los Angeles. It can get ugly fast and last for a generation. Fortunately for the UK, Al Sharpton isn't there to help out.

Sammi79

08-11-11, 02:41 AM

Thats exactly why papers like 'The Sun' are part of the problem as they have promoted such attitudes for a long time. There is no race war here, but bigoted fascist idiots (within all ethnic groups) would like there to be and will use this as an excuse. The UKIP are going to love this. I have already stated the primary reasons for these troubles in previous posts in this thread, multiculturalism is not the issue, its about a generation of spoiled children who have been created by a failing state education system and OTT laws inhibiting discipline brought in with good intentions by the increasingly confused politically correct crowd. It has been going on for the last 30 years at least. It is a bunch of chavs is all, who else would be stopped by a bit of rain? These kids are already getting the shock they need being sent up to crown court where their sentences are reasonably heavy, when they felt confident that they would get little more than a slapped wrist.

papa_smurf

08-11-11, 04:10 AM

So far 888 have been arrested in London alone, and show the varied cross-section of people involved in these "riots". From a 11 year old girl to students and a teaching assistant (who ironically was a learning mentor).

Meanwhile Greater Manchester and Salford councils have stated that if any of their tenants are found to been involved in the disturbance/looting will be evicted with immediate effect.

Skybird

08-11-11, 04:41 AM

I read descritpions of the structure of migration in Britain and London, and learn that there is a lot of hostility between ethnic groups when some groups refusing to integrate envy other groups who integrate and by their own effort have more success.

Cameron called British society as "broken society" when he entered office. These days, he even called it a sick society. In these riots we see a total lack of consent on communal and cultural values, wrongs and rights, definitions of lawful and criminal. There is a group in society at the lower end of the spectrum that obviously has quit consent on even a minimum of value standards. I think that due to a decline of said consence in some groups, especially blacks and groups who became prominent migrant groups into the UK longer time ago and who are left behind by especially Asian migrants who integrate with more discipline, self-investement and work, and there are others, namely Muslim migrant groups, that to a prominent share actively refuse integration from all beginning on because they refuse to accept that as their duty and obligation when going to a foreign place.

And then there is the home-bred white social lower class that probably disconnected from said value consent because establishment and self-declared elites since long time fail them to serve as convincing standards to follow, but make headlines by their own excesses in which they make mockery of any talking about "values". It is not by random chance that the most aggressive, emotionally upcharged, aggressive, primitive yellow press in Europe is set in Britain and not any other country. I mean the "fame" of Britain's yellow press is global, isn't it.

The result of all this together is anarchy, crime, disinhibition. All of this is maybe an explanation. But it never can be an excuse.

I read some comments calling Britain a failed state. I yet would not go that far, but I think in major parts it is a deeply broken, failed society, and in the long run it could turn into a failed state, like several Western states. And failed integration and illusions about "Multi-Kulti", as it is called in German, is one part of the explanation.

Some pics I saw in the media looked like scenes from WWII. Some of the buildings burned down they said had survived the destructions of WWI and WWII while their neighbourhood went into smoking ruins.

But then came the mob.

No soft talking this time please, no illusional and pedagogically oh so valuable understanding by courts and judges - crack down on them, and hard, and uncompromised.

Tribesman

08-11-11, 05:18 AM

I read descritpions of the structure of migration in Britain and London
Live in London then come back and talk about it and see how badly your contradictory phobias stand up :doh:
most of that post is just Sky trying to fit his pet hates into a context where they don't fit.

These kids are already getting the shock they need being sent up to crown court where their sentences are reasonably heavy
Yeah 20 weeks jail for using abusive language. I bet he was bloody surprised at that

Penguin

08-11-11, 05:20 AM

Tribesman

08-11-11, 05:27 AM

Penguin perhaps you are on his famous ignore list:rotfl2:

Penguin

08-11-11, 05:30 AM

Penguin perhaps you are on his famous ignore list:rotfl2:

Maybe everybody's on his iggy list - same like Senor PR ;).
That's why this looks to both like a blog :O:

Skybird

08-11-11, 05:35 AM

Yay! Race war: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHCQA1EJiC0 :up:

@Skybird: an honest question: do you even bother to read other posts? Just 2 posts above yours did Sammi adress exactly the issues which you rant about.:nope:
Check out his or jumpys posts in this thread to get some insiders perspective! This is really the German "Oh we know it all better!", oberlehrer attitude you show. Could it be that maybe those pesky island inhabitants have just a little, tiny more insight into their own countries matters than others?
And this is no fresh outsiders perspective you bring into, the British have their own ranters who say the very same things - some of them write for The Sun...

Jesuselvischrist, really, it looks like you need a blog if you do not want to discuss things or adress other points! I also tried to adress your issues 2 pages ago and took my time to answer you in a polite way. If your nose is to much in ther air to be bothered with an answer to me or other mortals, I do not see much sense in writing on a forum.
Sammi says so, so it must be true? He reflects just one aspect of it, and it is the classical sociologically oriented perspective. It may or may not be true, but no matter: it hardly is more than just one part of the puzzle.

Check German media our international media, and you will see that some more left-leaning media tend to focus on social explanation models, while other, conservative media tend to focus more on what I point at.

Spiegel quotes Die Welt in a translated national press overview with this, I found it after I wrote my previous post:

"The unrest in London is a form of hooliganism by losers who are living in a society which no longer has anything left to offer losers. Among the arsonists are people who no longer possess any values. They've gotten used to drawing money from the state and they complain when the handouts stop coming as generously as they did in the past. This is a problem that, within the foreseeable future, many more Europeans are going to be confronted with, including many young people. This is because most European countries have been living far beyond their means. They will, without exception, be forced to cut back their spending."
"And with that development, an outmoded illusion of prosperity will be lost -- namely the belief that everything will continue to get better, without us Europeans having to make much of an effort. In part, the peace in Europe of the past 66 years has also been bought through increasingly generous welfare states. But those days are over. The strength of Europe's democracy will now be measured based on how sustainably societies change their values to reflect that reality."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,779413,00.html

And take note of the comment by the extremely left Tageszeitung', which this time is surprisingly conservative.

Agree, or don't agree. But do not try to engage me on a personal, rethoric level. We both know since a bit longer now that on some issues you are more left-leaning than I am and that I am more right leaning than you are. C'est la vie.

Betonov

08-11-11, 05:37 AM

Thank Neal for this forum. The media coverage is lousy here. If I'd depend on local newspapers I'd know nothing.

Tribesman

08-11-11, 05:38 AM

Classic, his answer is "look in german newspapers":har::har::har::har::har:

Betonov

08-11-11, 05:47 AM

Classic, his answer is "look in german newspapers":har::har::har::har::har:

Better than look in Slovenian newspapers that's for sure. We have only one reliable newspaper and that one devoted about half a page per day about the riots.

Sammi79

08-11-11, 05:49 AM

Skybird, while I agree with some of what you say :-

These disturbances are not about race in any way, in fact all racial groups here are clearly represented perpetrating the vandalism and violence, with no group being the target of another. 'Multi-Kulti' can and will work but we need to make integration a law and a principle. Remove religion from schools primary and secondary would solve half of this problem, as this is where the practice of non-integrating (voluntary segregation) starts. If the kids are mixed from the beggining these imaginary groupings will be dissolved within a generation, and the likelihood of them forming or joining 'gangs' later on will be reduced. Also think of the extra time schools could spend teaching worthwhile subjects like logic, reason, rhetoric and critical thinking as opposed to R.E of which in high school I had mandatory 4 hours a week. In primary it was more. I actually support the French idea to ban religious clothing - getting rid of the muslim veil and christian crosses at the same moment, thus subtley enforcing integration in public.

Also, us adults need to take our responsibility seriously, and set a proper example, especially the affluent few who control/own everything. The problem here is - banks are allowed to essentially loot off everyone except for the very rich, politicians fiddle their expenses and own several houses and have huge pay-cheques anyway. As a working class person, inflation means that you get paid less today than you did for the same job yesterday, taxes and costs of living (food/accomodation) rise and services are cut. Over at least the last 30 years the politically correct folks with the best of intentions and the media (with mostly less than honorable intentions) have inhibited the neccessary ability of parents, teachers and police to instill discipline/respect in the next generation. Adults are afraid to reprimand mis-behaving youngsters for fear of being labelled a child molester/peadophile. Personally if I see a child doing something stupid and dangerous I will tell them off, and many times have then had to deal with abusive parents who should be doing the job themselves, but this will not discourage me to stand by my principle.

This problem is not just with the latest generation, they've got it the worst but like I said this started a long time ago, and the kids that got damaged in the first place now have had kids themselves - and this is the result. I would say throw the book at them, they are crying out for the lesson they should have been taught as primary school children, that for every action there shall be a consequence, and I'm sure they will get heavy sentencing but somehow I don't think it will help much. The root problems are not being addressed yet. Like I said earlier, the fascists and racists will have a field day now saying that immigration is the problem. The Religious folks will similarly say that godlessness and the lack of good christian/muslim morality is the problem. The police will be given more powers and more of our rights will be eroded, while we applaud them, and the fat cat politicians and banksters will still be considerably richer than the rest of us.

Skybird

08-11-11, 05:50 AM

Sammi79

08-11-11, 06:04 AM

Here's a good article from someone with a finger on the pulse.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

Penguin

08-11-11, 06:05 AM

Sammi says so, so it must be true?

I don't know if Sammi is Jesus - probably not! ;) As any other statement members on here write, it is open for discussion. I found it fitting, because he adresses ALL idiots, without singling out a group and he just wrote about the same topics like you wrote 2 posts later.
a little hint: just check out which ethnic groups organized themselves to defend their property AND uphold the law of the country they live in - whites anglosaxons were only one one part of it.

Check German media our international media, and you will see that some more left-leaning media tend to focus on social explanation models, while other, conservative media tend to focus more on what I point at.

Sure, like it always was. But the shoe that the search for explanations equals a sympathy for criminal elements does not fit.

Spiegel quotes Die Welt in a translated national press overview with this, I found it after I wrote my previous post:
[snip]
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,779413,00.html

And take note of the comment by the extremely left Tageszeitung', which this time is surprisingly conservative.

I tried to adress this in my last answer:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1725080&postcount=562 where I even (tada!) agreed with some of your points.

I read some stuff on left British websites about the riots, and reading most stuff on there made me want to bang my head against the wall all day :damn: - or theirs ;)
Those middle-class wannabe revolutionaries suffer from a serious lack of perspective, idiological borders and lack of life experience. I am glad that I saw some few sane opinions there.

Agree, or don't agree. But do not try to engage me on a personal, rethoric level. We both know since a bit longer now that on some issues you are more left-leaning than I am and that I am more right leaning than you are. C'est la vie.

Well, I try to be reasonable, sometimes I am more rhetoric - c'est moi! :03:
I try not to be personal, but disregarding other opinions and statements is a sign of bad bahaviour. I do not attack options just because they do not fit into my little, dumb political POV, I attack them when they are off. Other views can and should be discussed.

Skybird

08-11-11, 06:24 AM

Skybird, while I agree with some of what you say :-

These disturbances are not about race in any way, in fact all racial groups here are clearly represented perpetrating the vandalism and violence, with no group being the target of another.

You see these groups as homogenous entities. I do not. Age for example makes a difference. Gender is another major feature differenbtiating people within a subgroup, with far-reaching consequences on a multitude of levels. And hostility towards British home culture has been shown in sociological reviews since early last decade to be the higher in migrants' younger age groups the more a.) non-integrative and b.) Muslim said Migrant subgroup is marked. Your own press linked and reported about these studies, and I have linked to these media reprots several years ago in this forum.

We have similiar findings from Germany. Sweden. Netherlands.

'Multi-Kulti' can and will work but we need to make integration a law and a principle. Remove religion from schools primary and secondary would solve half of this problem, as this is where the practice of non-integrating (voluntary segregation) starts.

While I agree on the need for obligational integration and adaptation to European homke culture, I see multi-kulti failing too often and remind you that self-chosen segragation does not start with classes in relgion at school, but with ideological claims that have already been set before school even starts. Such families will refuse integration no matter whether you have relgious courses at school or not. It is a big EU-driven illusion to think they could tame a certain religion of peace by educating European Imams. If these Imams would indeed representing said religion, they still would need to represent the ideological claim of said religion (else they would not be that religion's "Imams") - no matter where they have been educated and whether they have a European diploma for it or not.

If the kids are mixed from the beggining these imaginary groupings will be dissolved within a generation, and the likelihood of them forming or joining 'gangs' later on will be reduced. Also think of the extra time schools could spend teaching worthwhile subjects like logic, reason, rhetoric and critical thinking as opposed to R.E of which in high school I had mandatory 4 hours a week. In primary it was more. I actually support the French idea to ban religious clothing - getting rid of the muslim veil and christian crosses at the same moment, thus subtley enforcing integration in public.
All this is okay with me, but I again must tell you that you simply bypass the problem of ideologic claim to not needing to integrate. Every social worker and school teacher (I know several) here in Germany would tell you that the indeed "enlightened" Muslim families, mostly Turks over here, who can afford it would send there children to private schools anyway, since the state-run schools fall for the same illusions like you indicate in the above paragraph, and that the majority of Muslim families in state schools either refuse to cooperate with the public school'S teachers in educating their children for desinterest, leaving the whole burden completely to the school (so it necessarily must fail), or actively fight against the school'S ideas and actively counter integration attempts by school teachers by educatiung their children at home in a completely opposite way. It is a mixture of passdvity and desinterest on the one hand (due to the historically build fatalism), and active and wanted aggression.

I am sure it is the same in Sweden, Netherlands, France - and Britain.

Also, us adults need to take our responsibility seriously, and set a proper example, especially the affluent few who control/own everything.

"Us adults" are a very mixed, diverse breed with plenty of partially or completely mutually exclusive ideologies on mind.

The problem here is - banks are allowed to essentially loot off everyone except for the very rich, politicians fiddle their expenses and own several houses and have huge pay-cheques anyway.

Yes, that is the decline of the exemplary function of idols and values I talked of. The finajcial criticising and big bailouts have sent a devastating message to the ordinary small guy.

As a working class person, inflation means that you get paid less today than you did for the same job yesterday, taxes and costs of living (food/accomodation) rise and services are cut.

I see what you mean, cold progression and the like. A calculation that was published in Germany one or two days ago said that Germany is heavily effected by the decline of buying power of real wages over the past I think it were 20 years , and that in Germanyx that loss i greater than in other eurppean states. Germany also has the biggest minimum wages job sector in Europe and the greatest deficit in regulation for guaranteed minimum wages amongst all Western industrial nations. Now you kinow why tzhe German economy wentz smoother throught he crisis so far than anyone's elses. It's a a social time-bomb of course.

Over at least the last 30 years the politically correct folks with the best of intentions and the media (with mostly less than honorable intentions) have inhibited the neccessary ability of parents, teachers and police to instill discipline/respect in the next generation. Adults are afraid to reprimand mis-behaving youngsters for fear of being labelled a child molester/peadophile. Personally if I see a child doing something stupid and dangerous I will tell them off, and many times have then had to deal with abusive parents who should be doing the job themselves, but this will not discourage me to stand by my principle.

Agreed. In Germany we call it the fallout of the 68-generation, becasue back then there were student revolts in Germany that lead to a massive shift to the left in ther thinbking of achademic eltiers that today hold key offices in legislation, courts, and education. The education misery we have in Germany is one of the results of these 68ers, as we call them. Anti-authoritarian education, unlimited relativisation of standards until they mean nothing anymore, lowering performance standards to push up mean assessment scores. I have been psychologist myself and had, and still have friends working as teachers, sociologists, psychologists, social workers. You must not tell me. :) Never regretted I left it behind.

This problem is not just with the latest generation, they've got it the worst but like I said this started a long time ago, and the kids that got damaged in the first place now have had kids themselves - and this is the result. I would say throw the book at them, they are crying out for the lesson they should have been taught as primary school children, that for every action there shall be a consequence, and I'm sure they will get heavy sentencing but somehow I don't think it will help much. The root problems are not being addressed yet. Like I said earlier, the fascists and racists will have a field day now saying that immigration is the problem. The Religious folks will similarly say that godlessness and the lack of good christian/muslim morality is the problem. The police will be given more powers and more of our rights will be eroded, while we applaud them, and the fat cat politicians and banksters will still be considerably richer than the rest of us.
Agreed. Just for the record: I am critical of unselected migration policies and Islam - but that does not make me either a fascist or a Nazi. I know you did not throw that at me, but I remind of that just becasue there are people, also in this forum, who for rethorical reasons try the cheap shopt at me when being given the opportunity.

I'm sure there are my usual plenty of typos, but I am a lazy man. Forgive. :)

On leave now.

Tribesman

08-11-11, 07:26 AM

Agreed. Just for the record: I am critical of unselected migration policies and Islam - but that does not make me either a fascist or a Nazi. I know you did not throw that at me, but I remind of that just becasue there are people, also in this forum, who for rethorical reasons try the cheap shopt at me when being given the opportunity.
Hey thats not even remotely accurate, I only call Sky a nazi when he is writing word for word 1930/40s german propoganda but switching jews for muslims, it isn't a cheap shot and it isn't rhetorical as it is a direct and very telling point which gets right to the heart of why his "intelligence" has led him full circle into foolishness and how he is so blinded by his pet hatreds that he cannot even see anymore.
Likewise I only call him a liar when he is lying and only say he is repeating his thoroughly trashed rubbish when he repeats the same nonsense again and again after it has been shown to be undeniably nonsense dozens of times:yeah:

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 07:45 AM

Penguin,

a German-language comment/article:

England krankt an Wertelosigkeit der Unterschicht (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article13538025/England-krankt-an-Wertelosigkeit-der-Unterschicht.html)

Maybe you now ask what came first, the hen or the egg, but - does that really matter anyway?

I've just read that article, and once again (tell me if I'm wrong in my translation) it appears to be blaming blacks/immigration. If that is the case then it is wholly wrong. The initial point was because police shot an innocent black man (innocent in that he didn't shoot first - he still had an illegal firearm capable at that time of doing so). And the protests on the Saturday evening were as a result of that (over-reactive, mis-informed locals). The rioting that occured that night was in areas of high non-white ethnicity and could be understood to be like previous race riots of the '80s and '90s. What followed was copycat thuggary by people in other cities who thought they could do the same and make much personal gain. Even some, I'm sure, of previous good character caught up in the mob moment . Black or white, what followed was not racially motivated, just greed.

Penguin

08-11-11, 07:52 AM

to all: Good that we can discuss this topic further and rather civilized...:yeah:

Penguin,

a German-language comment/article:

England krankt an Wertelosigkeit der Unterschicht (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article13538025/England-krankt-an-Wertelosigkeit-der-Unterschicht.html)

Maybe you now ask what came first, the hen or the egg, but - does that really matter anyway?

:hmmm: this quite condradicts Clemens Wergin's opinion from yesterday, as Kielinger does try to mention some explanations. Not a bad article, some flaws though. The biggest one would be the one that people confuse no- or laissez-faire education with a democratic education style.
This is lesson one in pedagogics that this provides the same inefficency like an all-authoritarian education style.

The authoritarian beat-em-up style bears the same "results" as the "oh, i do not want to interfere" style. Values or respect for other folks is not one of them. Both are unfortunately predominant among the lower class.

Sammi79

08-11-11, 07:57 AM

Hi Skybird,

I see the groups as homogenous because, well quite simply, they are. Ages 11 - 33, male and female, black, white, and all colours in between. I don't think stopping religious lessons in schools is enough, I am talking about separating education and religion entirely. Over 2/3 primary schools in Britain are 'faith' schools, mainly christian and islamic, some judaic also, where by way of which school you go to you are segregated automatically - I am not talking about segregation within schools regarding religious lessons, of which you must admit the time could be better spent? If there is only 1 kind of primary school then regardless of ideologic resistance to integration, the children (who have no ideologic resistance) would be integrated at a crucial stage of their development. No parent could be worried that their child is being taught that other religion, because religion in schools would not exist. Do you see my point? Aren't there enough sunday schools and prayer meetings etc. outside of education to cater for religion?

I am critical of all religions, none more so than the three I mentioned above as they all harp on about the same fictitious creator and yet remain eternally divided on the matter. I think building mosques for muslims and churches for christians etc. is wrong. If I had my way, they'd all have to use the same building, either at the same time or work out a rotor, I wouldn't care which, just keep it away from me, and don't feed it to my kids please.

Anyway, I know religion is not the issue here, though it is as I see it part of the root cause, as it has exacerbated and encouraged the gang mentality that is a real part of the problem.

edit: Sorry I can't read German so no comment from me on that article.

Penguin

08-11-11, 08:17 AM

I've just read that article, and once again (tell me if I'm wrong in my translation) it appears to be blaming blacks/immigration. If that is the case then it is wholly wrong.

Not quite accurate. The thing about immigration it blames, is that the immi politics "did not set reasonable requirements which are neccessary to adjust to a tradition on democracy" (quote from the article)
The piece also points towards the problem of immigrants who hate the guts of other immigrant groups.

The last paragraph of the article is complete bs though, it states that a hard criminal presecution is forbidden by political correctness. This is again an example for turning the own, German perception of the justice system and society here, into a statement about Britain's.

In general, the core essence of the article is this sentence :

Die Krankheit Englands, so müssen es die Menschen erleben, nistet in einer sich selbst überlassenen Unterschicht am Ende der sozialen Skala, in der es keine Übereinkunft mehr gibt mit den Werten der übrigen Gemeinschaft, kein Bewusstsein von Rechten und Pflichten, vom Unterschied zwischen Moral und Unmoral, zwischen Recht und Unrecht.

translation:
The English illness, as the people have to experience (atm), roots in a lower class at the end of the social ladder, which is left on its own , where is no more agreement with the values of the rest of society, no consciousness of rights and obligations, difference between moral and immoral, between justice and injustice.
my 2 cents: as if those values are different in the other classes, where an antisocial upper-class shows how desirable it is to live recklessly, exploit, cheat and lie for some financial gain.

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 08:18 AM

edit: Sorry I can't read German so no comment from me on that article.

Google translate did it for me. :yep:

I think. :hmmm:

Edit: just read Penguin's post above. Thanks. The people at the lower-end of that spectrum (it is perceived) need to get off their arses and look for jobs rather than live off benefits or go rioting/looting for their latest TV. I've just done a quick job search for within 10 miles of my nearest large town and there are hundreds of jobs to be filled - admittedly not all are available to all as some require specific qualifications/experience - but the rest are there for the taking, and just about all were above the minimum wage. And that town is not one of the most affluent areas of the county, or country. When I left the air force I was unemployed for about one month, when I was made redundant from that job two years later I was again unemployed for only a couple of weeks - and they were (are - if my boss reads this :D) jobs I wanted to do. People just expect it all on a plate nowadays.

That's not to say that everybody can or will find a job easily, I'm sure there are other areas that are different, but blaming the government (or the previous one that put us here) is not the answer.

Top tip to anyone who thinks they are living below the breadline and complains they don't have enough money - ditch your £40-per-month Sky subscription, sell your wall mounted 50" TV and replace it (if you must) with a much smaller model - it'll still work, just sit closer! Work out your mobile phone costs - why pay £35-per-month for a contract that includes 2000 minutes if you only use 200 minutes which would be available for £15? :damn: People need to help themselves, and I don't mean in an illegal way. :arrgh!:

/rant

Sammi79

08-11-11, 09:28 AM

as if those values are different in the other classes, where an antisocial upper-class shows how desirable it is to live recklessly, exploit, cheat and lie for some financial gain.

Thank you for your correct translation this makes more sense to me now. I think you are spot on with your 2 cents that is exactly what has happened, and what regular people here are really ticked off about. That this is the example we set them. Gangs offer financial gains through criminality, wether that be drugs, guns, mugging etc. Consumerism makes these financial gains all the more desirable, added to the welfare money and you as a teenager could be raking in more than a man twice your age who has been working for 10 years. Gangs also have power to exact what they decide is justice in a way the authorities may not.

The authorities need to provide better opportunities to compete with this, but the lack of values and morality that they talk about is endemic throughout our society particularly among its leaders and said authorities.

Unfortunately this cannot be fixed quickly.

@Herr-Berbunch - Yeah I never tried google translate for more than a few words before, pretty cool :DL

Oberon

08-11-11, 09:40 AM

Don't worry, Dave will get it under control...err...Dave?

http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/082011/cameron-looters.jpg

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 09:41 AM

@Herr-Berbunch - Yeah I never tried google translate for more than a few words before, pretty cool :DL

But like everything on teh interwebs it's not 100% reliable. I use it at work mostly for Norwegian stuff, but with Subsim it's also invaluable with Française, Suomi, Polski, Deutsch (obviously!), amonst the odd other.

Even Cymraeg -

Helo 'na boyo! A ydych yn y Gogledd, De, neu yn y canol? :hmmm: (y u no memes make even more sense to the Welsh!)

joea

08-11-11, 09:42 AM

Some very good points on these last pages. Pretty awful all around. :shifty:

Great pic Oberon. :har:

Sammi79

08-11-11, 09:55 AM

Don't worry, Dave will get it under control...err...Dave?

http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/082011/cameron-looters.jpg

I had to look at that for a while before I :har:

Yn y boyo canol.

Ha! this google translate is good, I never could speak welsh but now...

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 10:02 AM

I had to look at that for a while before I :har:

Yn y boyo canol.

Ha! this google translate is good, I never could speak welsh but now...

Ah, I used to go out with a girl from Welshpool.

More p'shopped looters available here - http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/ and most are very, very funny.

My favourite is this one, so subtle -

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8548/tumblrlpnlwiyzzu1r1qajl.jpg

Tribesman

08-11-11, 10:35 AM

My favourite is this one, so subtle -

The thing with that photo (the original) is that it could be any English riot from the 70s 80s or 90s (which might have been educational for young Paul who didn't realise these things happen).
However if you replaced the gold tin with a purple one or a bottle of buck it could be a picture from any Scottish riot:03:

joea

08-11-11, 10:37 AM

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 10:50 AM

Back to a serious note-looks like the goverment is looking at clamping down on social media. Taking a leaf from Mubarak, err the People's Republic of China errr no wait. :-?:down:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14493497

That's only for situations such as we have witnessed, although still not going to be a crowd-pleaser. :nope:

If anyone's interested - in extreme situations (war) the telephone networks will be closed down to all numbers that aren't registered on a certain government list, the exception being public telephone boxes - well, those that are left.

Oberon

08-11-11, 10:51 AM

http://gerryco23.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/toxteth-riots-upper-parliament-street.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/1981_Brixton_Riots.jpg/800px-1981_Brixton_Riots.jpg

http://oxford.indymedia.org.uk/images/2011/04/477380.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRj2K0ulD8Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCjZEZt3QKc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpOwOquPc2M

I think the difference between these riots and the others are two-fold. Firstly there was a clear set reason behind many of the others, whereas the reasons behind this one is a little more blurred, and secondly this is the first UK riot in the era of the 24/7 rolling news...which naturally makes it seem all the more dramatic than it is.

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 10:56 AM

Well I don't have Sky, so my only rolling news is BBC News 24, and that was very boring on Tuesday night, showing the same two minutes of footage for almost an hour, interspersed every now and again with a trip to the studio. After watching normal telly we flicked back again later on with live scenes from Manchester - of cars driving past the Britannia Hotel, little or no furore, and then back to the earlier rolling (i.e. repeated) footage. :nope:

Jimbuna

08-11-11, 11:06 AM

Don't worry, Dave will get it under control...err...Dave?

http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/082011/cameron-looters.jpg

LOL....I doubt there's anything in there left that is worth stealing :DL

08-11-11, 12:29 PM

The root causes of the British riots

by Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi
The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=233299)

What to make of the riots that began in parts of London and have spread to Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol and Liverpool? Are there any root causes we can identify? First, it is apparent that far too many commentators interpret these events based entirely on pre-conceived paradigms. For socialists like Ken Livingstone (former mayor of London), the riots are the fault of the government's spending cuts and the "social division" they have supposedly fostered.
Meanwhile, the far-Right British National Party characterizes the mayhem as a repeat of the race riots that occurred in Oldham in 2001. Only this time, the primary agitators are not South Asians but, in the words of one London-based right-wing blogger, "pampered black youth" who "indulged in welfare scrounging, looting and ****less fathering supported by the bleeding hearts of the BBC/Guardian axis." Many mainstream conservatives point to a state policy of multiculturalism as the culprit.
However, a close look at what is actually going on demonstrates the failure of all these analyses to explain the riots. Contrary to what Livingstone imagines, many of the youths taking part in these disturbances are not poor at all: They are mostly of a middleor lower-middle-class background. In any case, if they are angry with the coalition government and its spending cuts, why are they looting the homes and businesses of middle- and working-class people? It is clearly not the wealthy who are bearing the burden of costs in damages.
Portraying the disturbances as an uprising of the "under-privileged" is to be expected from those who subscribe to the Marxist theory of historical materialism, according to which economic causes are the driving force behind all human actions.
Likewise, those pointing to racial tensions and multiculturalism have ignored the facts. I do not endorse multiculturalism as a state policy, but the area of Tottenham where the riots began is composed of whites, blacks, Jews and Turks. The vandals in that part of London have certainly not divided themselves into separate racial gangs. As Talal Rajab, a blogger from north London, points out, the riots are also taking place in predominantly white areas of the capital such as Enfield, and the looters there are mainly white as well.
Nevertheless, one rationale that has somewhat transcended political boundaries is the relationship between the Metropolitan Police and London's residents.
Specifically, the unrest sparked just after the police shooting of a 29-year old man, Mark Duggan.
Duggan, a suspected member of a local criminal gang, was apparently unarmed at the time, and officers at Tottenham's police station seem to have ignored a local vigil held outside the station, demanding information on the circumstances behind the shooting.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is thus carrying out an investigation.
Yet this is not the first time the police have failed to be transparent when it comes to apparent mistakes.
For example, in 2005, after the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, they initially allowed false reports to circulate that the Brazilian man tried to run away from officers.
Such an explanation does not justify the current riots. Rather, youths driven by greed and a lust for senseless violence have taken advantage of the lack of trust between the police and local communities, using the shooting of Duggan as a pretext. It is telling that many victims of the current unrest have complained of inadequate police protection in their areas.
UNDENIABLY, THE spread of these riots has been planned. Pundits have frequently characterized the Arab Spring as the "Twitter Revolution." It might be accurate to label these riots in Britain a "BlackBerry Revolution." Indeed, broadcasts via BlackBerry (rather than Twitter or Facebook), which immediately came under surveillance by the police, and distribution of leaflets have been instrumental in orchestrating the present unrest.
As for the motivation of the vandals and thieves, one need look no further than what one rioter told Sky News reporter Mark Stone: "We're getting our taxes back."
In other words, the rioters are stealing designer clothes and gadgets ***8211; besides causing property damage ***8211; simply because they can.
Hence, I can only agree with Rajab's concluding observations: "The saddest thing is that while our parents fought for noble causes such as equal rights and the end of apartheid, our generation fights for Nike trainers and iPads. This, I am afraid, will define my generation."

..............

Tribesman

08-11-11, 12:47 PM

Good article MH.
One small thing though, as yet there is nothing to indicate that Duggan was unarmed and there is sufficient to indicate he was armed, the problem was that the claim was made that he had fired at police and they returned fire.
According to IPCC statements released so far the actual police involved never made any such claim.
That points to management failures and an failed attempt to pre-emptively colour their positioni n a more favourable light.....which is exactly what they did with the Menendez shooting, the major difference being that they kept on repeating the lies about Menendez long after they knew they were obviously untrue whereas in this case they just clammed up and said nothing more.

Oberon

08-11-11, 12:47 PM

The Riots have now spread to Edinburgh...here's some shocking footage filmed in the streets of the city.
Warning, graphic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE

Sammi79

08-11-11, 12:53 PM

That is an interesting article MH, although a couple of things to point out. The man who was shot by police was apparently armed - at least a non-police issue weapon was recovered from the scene, said the police. Also they are not stealing designer clothes and ipads its a bit more downmarket than that, more like alcohol and cheap trainers. The last thing I would argue with is that none of the rioters were working class - unless you consider the lowest class in Britain to be lower-middle class, well we're not all small business owners with half a mortgage and 2 cars thankyou.

Other than that it warns of simplified pre-conceived ideas for the root causes then places its own statement from 1 person as the singular reason - high taxes. If you look at the comments though the most recent one on that page, and if you really want a simple answer to all of this then listen to Paul Yarden:

'The last 40 years in Britain have raised two generations who know everything about their rights and benefits but nothing about their responsibilites and obligations.'

Sammi79

08-11-11, 12:54 PM

The Riots have now spread to Edinburgh...here's some shocking footage filmed in the streets of the city.
Warning, graphic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE

:stare: break out the rubber bullets! call in the army!

jumpy

08-11-11, 01:53 PM

The Riots have now spread to Edinburgh...here's some shocking footage filmed in the streets of the city.
Warning, graphic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE

lmao

BossMark

08-11-11, 02:03 PM

The Riots have now spread to Edinburgh...here's some shocking footage filmed in the streets of the city.
Warning, graphic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE
:haha:
I bet that tosser Cameron and his goons still wants to cut down on our police force
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14485592

08-11-11, 02:27 PM

'The last 40 years in Britain have raised two generations who know everything about their rights and benefits but nothing about their responsibilites and obligations.'

From may point of view its a mix various reason....
Failed multiculturalism where the "stay behind" weak individuals or communities blame the system/authority instead of themselves for their life failure is one of them.
The ethnically different minority people mostly divert to racial explanations for their failure.
Usually they hold to anything that can back their stance and justify
"screw the system" criminal behavior turning it into sort of ideology.
An ideology that sometimes is fueled by politicians with their corrective sympathy and "rational" injustice explanations to get votes.
In Israel in Hebrew its called "corrective discrimination"..... (that's direct translation)

Shooting black man in dubious circumstances is one of good examples of self rationalised ethnic criminal violence.
"Yeah its because he is black so lets riot" as if police would have to shoot a white criminal for PC each time for the balance.

Add to this opportunistic vandalism and rioting for the heck of it and free stuff which comes from all groups-"to get the taxes back".
Groups that by the way are in similar state of mind but different self explanation.

Multiculturalism is one of the issues that adds the fuel to the fire but not only one.
A reason the flames may be a bit higher this time?

Growler

08-11-11, 04:33 PM

The Riots have now spread to Edinburgh...here's some shocking footage filmed in the streets of the city.
Warning, graphic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE
The very idea... What unmitigated gall!
:har:

Jimbuna

08-11-11, 05:57 PM

Good to see that humour can still prevail at times :yeah:

MothBalls

08-11-11, 06:22 PM

Herr-Berbunch

08-11-11, 06:41 PM

Can I ask a couple questions for those who actually live there? Yes.

1. From everything I read, it seems the country as a whole is totally against using any kind of deadly force, or military, to retake 'control'. But, would it really be that bad to do so? Yes, the use of such force is unnecessary, excessive and completely un-British. Unless we're in another country!

2. If it went to the extreme, say martial law for example, would that just backfire and make it worse? The incumbent government would not last beyond the next election. You're talking about a couple of thousand people taking the piss out of a population of ~60m, so martial law would be excessive.

3. From my armchair thousands of miles away, it seems more like just a mob taking advantage of the opportunity to loot and pillage because they know there aren't enough resources to deal with all of it. Am I wrong? It's all in the cities, lots of allyways and side streets, not a big square like Trafalgar Square or Tiananmen Square that could easily be surrounded, the dickheads kick off somewhere and then move on before the police arrive, and again, and again. It is just opportunist thuggary, the communities involved will not tolerate much longer at all.

4. For me, it looks like a war zone (trying to see through the media hype and focus on the trouble spots). Is it really widespread carnage? People afraid to go out and do anything at night? No, a few isolated areas. Sure there are some people who live close to these hotspots that will be afraid, but living that close rightly so. The rest of the public are pretty safe.

Frustrating watching these things happen. Especially when the truly innocent are getting victimized by a few thugs. I really feel sorry for the shopkeepers and other people who have suffered because of the mob mentality. That's the part that really gets me, these people are intentionally hurting innocent people. It is frustrating, I'm sure, the businesses and buildings should be insured, it's just a case of how much profit is missed until normal service can be resumed, and if the said businesses can survive that long. As for the injured parties, well no amount of rebuilding businesses can help heal them inside or out. All we can hope is that all the culprits are brought to justice swiftly and decent penalties are given (although any football fan will tell you England's not great on penalties :nope:). Whether that justice is through the courts or through local community 'action' - who knows, and I don't think many right-minded people would care. You don't sh1t on your own doorstep - but that's what they've done.

jumpy

08-11-11, 07:14 PM

Can I ask a couple questions for those who actually live there?

1. From everything I read, it seems the country as a whole is totally against using any kind of deadly force, or military, to retake 'control'. But, would it really be that bad to do so?

2. If it went to the extreme, say martial law for example, would that just backfire and make it worse?

3. From my armchair thousands of miles away, it seems more like just a mob taking advantage of the opportunity to loot and pillage because they know there aren't enough resources to deal with all of it. Am I wrong?

4. For me, it looks like a war zone (trying to see through the media hype and focus on the trouble spots). Is it really widespread carnage? People afraid to go out and do anything at night?

Frustrating watching these things happen. Especially when the truly innocent are getting victimized by a few thugs. I really feel sorry for the shopkeepers and other people who have suffered because of the mob mentality. That's the part that really gets me, these people are intentionally hurting innocent people.

It would be an unmitigated disaster, both for the country and the government, besides, it just not the way we like to do things here. There are plenty who advocate it, but I don't believe they really know what a precedent this sets, as they are reacting with emotion not reason.
Martial law would only be appropriate when all the people who did not riot started to do so; for example, the total collapse of state and logistical supply of food to the population (that's about as extreme as it could get here imo for such action to be warranted). Effectively I think this country would have to be well and truly ****** for martial law to make any sense and to not face widespread and forceful opposition, both in parliament and on the streets.
Not really - most are opportunists with no more solidarity with any community or protest at (insert reason here) than any of the scum who are already inclined to break the law by stealing etc.
Well, I'm certainly not afraid to step out of my door. There's been some scattered violence and freebooting, which is by no means systemic in its origins or evolution. What you see is like every other 'on the hour every hour' 24hour news - lots of opinion, commentary and moralising, criticism and saturation bombing of the airwaves with images of 'unprecedented violence' 'not seen in decades'. **** has gone down, certainly; but there's an awful lot of media hype, just like the NotW/news international coverage... you'll hear nothing else for weeks on end, until something more interesting comes along then it will be forgotten by the media collective and most everyone else who did not loose sleep or property, or those few who lost family.

Mob mentality aside, I like how the football was cancelled, but the test match went ahead - says it all really :DL
What these yobs are doing is intentionally ******* up their own stuff... they're so stupid that they were trying to break into Poundland in my city :doh:

STEED

08-12-11, 06:17 AM

What a stupid moron this women is..

Yesterday in Parliament Hazel Blears MP (Labour) said...

"Why are these kids not at school"? :doh:

Simple there on summer school holiday you plonker.

Tribesman

08-12-11, 07:13 AM

Be fair Steed, she couldn't even remember which of her houses was her real house so you don't expect her to be able to remember what month it is.

BossMark

08-12-11, 07:47 AM

Looks like Cameron as pissed somebody else off
http://news.sky.com/home/article/16048691

BossMark

08-12-11, 07:56 AM

Oberon

08-12-11, 08:07 AM

Be fair Steed, she couldn't even remember which of her houses was her real house so you don't expect her to be able to remember what month it is.

:har::har::har: Nicely put that man.

It's nice to see the Heads of Police fighting back against Governmental backseat driving though. I've gained a lot of respect for Hugh Orde every time I've seen him on television. He has to play the co-operation game with the government, otherwise everyone will round on him for trying to create a rift and the blame will all fall on his shoulders...however he is not a toady, and he's not afraid to quash the kinds of radical ideas that were coming out (water cannons, baton rounds) during the dark days of the riots in favour of adapting to the mobile situation and using a solution which might not be visual in terms of rioters getting blasted with water or having their eyes knocked out by baton rounds, but it was visible deterrent policing that stopped what was opportunistic theft.

TLDR? Dave and his merry bunch of idiots need to leave the police alone to do their jobs...preferably without taking most of their funding away from them. :damn:

STEED

08-12-11, 10:08 AM

Be fair Steed, she couldn't even remember which of her houses was her real house so you don't expect her to be able to remember what month it is.

What twonk of a MP she is. :haha:

Maybe she just forgot :hmmm:

What she had other things on her mind like fiddling her expenses, again. :88)

BossMark

08-12-11, 11:15 AM

What she had other things on her mind like fiddling her expenses, again. :88)
Could be, wouldn't bet against it :D

papa_smurf

08-12-11, 11:28 AM

What a stupid moron this women is..

Yesterday in Parliament Hazel Blears MP (Labour) said...

"Why are these kids not at school"? :doh:

Simple there on summer school holiday you plonker.

Indeed. Saw on local news when Blears was visiting Manchester afterwards, someone told her, whilst she was been interviewed, to "grab a brush and get stuck in" - classic:D

Tribesman

08-12-11, 11:53 AM

I've gained a lot of respect for Hugh Orde every time I've seen him on television.
Well he had already been through the minefield of the changeover in NI and came out pretty unscathed so dealing with "call me Dave" and the airbrush crowd are childs play to him

jumpy

08-12-11, 12:00 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14510329

The police watchdog has admitted it may have misled journalists into believing police shooting victim Mark Duggan fired at officers before he was killed.

I wonder how this will be explained?

Two small articles, one on the radio on monday, and this one today which actually tell something of value to what happened in the incident that is supposed to have been a catalyst for the rioting (before it spread).

Ok, the guy was armed with a converted blank firing pistol, but it makes me wonder... what did officers in charge of the operation and at the scene know - and did this mean they were justified in killing him with no apparent provocation - if they thought that I was armed, but there was no visible evidence to show that I was a direct threat to them, would they have shot me too?.

What does it say about firearms officers that they were seemingly prepared for this?

What does it say about the abilities of such officers that they managed to shoot one of their own (then blame it on the suspect, who due to the misfortune of being dead, cannot refute this)?

What does it say about the dissemination of information as regards such incidents that it is leaked that duggan fired first, thereby making valid shooting him dead?

Anyone remember the run of information released about the murder* of jean charles de menezes?

More questions than answers again - and if it's going to take another six months to reach an official verdict (a cynical man might say that will give everyone time to get their facts aligned correctly), any answers to the case will likely be as vague and unsatisfactory as those regarding the stockwell tube station incident.

*I use that word specifically in that case, because as far as I'm concerned, due to a number of procedural failures and decisions by those on the ground and also by those in overall command, that's exactly what it was. That case was an utter disgrace and the fact no-one was prosecuted for it, at any level, is even more disgraceful. I know some will disagree, but that's ok, I'm not here to argue the toss over my opinion.

STEED

08-12-11, 04:14 PM

OK, which of the following is true...

The rioters stopped as they got what they wanted?
The Police got the riots under control?
The Govenment got the riots under control as the Police had no idea?

Only saw the headlines on the 10pm BBC News as there was a conflict between the Police and Government as too who it was who got the rioters under control.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236

Oberon

08-12-11, 04:33 PM

Well, obviously it's number 3, because as we all know, the people of Britain respect their politicians and their promises. Mr Cameron said to the people to stop rioting and lo! So it was.

Next week Mr Cameron promises to obsolete the Channel Tunnel by parting the English Channel...

Skybird

08-12-11, 04:53 PM

The following German comment is by Daniel Johnson, a Briton about whom I only learned that he was commentator for the Times until two years ago, now runs his own monthly magazine, and occasionally writes for German newspapers, like here:

http://www.welt.de/kultur/article13541938/Wir-muessen-die-rosa-getoente-liberale-Brille-ablegen.html

German language.

We need to take off the rosy coloured, liberal glasses. Europe practices understanding for the raging mob on the streets of London. But how about mere contempt for this orgy of violence, for a change?
...
But who are these juvenile Mephistos, these spirits that always deny? They are the fatherless orphants of the revolt against the core families, that started in the 60s of the past century. They did not becom e orphants by war, famine or epidemics, but by the deconstruction of the institutions that support British society and especially those at the lower end of it: marriage, rule of law-and-order, education, and religion.
...
For shoplifting, the penalties today equal those for wrong parking and violation of non-smoking rules.
...
Migrants who arrived earlier in Britain, feel threatened by those arriving after them, and with the growth of Islam's influence, religion replaces race and ethnicity as an origin of tension.
Some compare to the tensions they had in France some years ago. But no British politician used the term that Sarkozy used, who called the rioters "pack" (=lowlife). But this is exactly what many citizens want to hear from the decision-makers.
Evberybody who speculates about the causes for the total breakdown of public order, should not ignore the most important one: there was no real policing work being done in London. Whole districts of the city, Tottenham for example, in fact are No-Go areas.

Johnson reminds of that some rioters who were brought to their first hearing before the judges so far, were by far no social low-class teenagers, but belonged to the middle class, and had ordinary jobs and lived quite burgeousie lives. There are examples mentioned that include social wellfare workers by Christian aid projects, and school teachers. Most however seem to be father- and orientationless young adults and juveniles for whom the gang leader has taken over the function of role modelling that fathers no longer are allowed and/or cannot fill anymore. The disdain and lack of loyalty to society's institutions and rules, seem to be infinite.

STEED

08-12-11, 04:55 PM

Tribesman

08-12-11, 04:57 PM

The following German comment is by Daniel Johnson
Interesting...
Whole districts of the city, Tottenham for example, in fact are No-Go areas.
.....it doesn't take much reading to see he is talking total bolloxs

STEED

08-12-11, 05:05 PM

A caller on LBC Radio came out with a interesting remark...

"It's better to be at the top as a criminal and not at the bottom in sociality".

I wonder. :hmmm:

Skybird

08-12-11, 05:12 PM

A caller on LBC Radio came out with a interesting remark...

"It's better to be at the top as a criminal and not at the bottom in sociality".

I wonder. :hmmm:
I don'T. In Germany, many would say: "it'S more beneficial to be on wellfare than to work in a low wages job and get less money."

I think that the cuts announced in the social sector not only hurt some who get really little aid indeed, but also makes angry some who have made themselves comfortable inside the wellfare system and do not plan for own acchievements anymore. Planned cuts threatens their chosen exile from solidarity with the social community that they abuse, and so they turn noisy.

However, this should be checked for in every individual case. Else you also cut many honest and innocent people whose only fault was to have had no or bad luck while you try to clean the system of the parasites that intentionally abuse it. But said honest victims of circumstances should single out and hand over the parasites amongst them, because the latter give the first a bad name.

But anyway, the roots for the decline in cultural integrity that we see, go deeper than just money. Which again cannot be an excuse - just an explanation.

And again: by far not just the poor disadvantaged social low class groups went to the streets, but also quite some members of the middle class and the educated as well. Which reminds of football holiganism, where in case of British hooligans it is known that here also brokers, academics, doctors join the weekend fun and give and taske blows alongside or agaimnst socially lower located holligan gangs that revive some form or archaic tribal culture that is about defending own ground against every foreigner wearing the wrong colours. Football is just the welcomed starting shot, the real fun these people crave for is the beating-up afterwards.

I wonder to what degree this hooligansim and its middle class customers may be compared to the riots there have been right now.

Let'S face it, some people simply enjoy to smash things into pieces and beat up people and have a real good fight, an the comfortably living middle class broker may also enjoy to have his little secret weekend adventure when stealing something that is not his own and afterwards celebrating his hidden act of rebellion and social protest in the pub, feeling cosy when imagining that he is "one of them". That's so cool, you know. Some people just enjoy this. And that is where you do not need to try to explain anything anymore. Instead you need to hit them so hard that they freeze and fall down. Then you can pick them up and bring them to court.

BossMark

08-13-11, 06:53 AM

I guess tosser Cameron dont trust our police any more :nope:

http://news.sky.com/home/article/16049302

What a jerk this bloke is along with his goons :shifty:

STEED

08-13-11, 07:59 AM

I guess tosser Cameron dont trust our police any more :nope:

http://news.sky.com/home/article/16049302

What a jerk this bloke is along with his goons :shifty:

The best of a rotten bunch who got the job. That tells me British politics is about as useful as putting your shopping in a Brown wet paper bag.

Time to get the yard broom out and sweep this rubbish away.

Garion

08-13-11, 11:53 AM

I thought they stopped because it began to piss down with rain and that would ruin the electical goods they were looting:woot:

Cheers

Garion

Oberon

08-13-11, 12:31 PM

Why do I get the feeling that was a cynical comment. :hmmm: :har:

Cynical, Moi? :O::haha:

BossMark

08-13-11, 12:52 PM

I thought they stopped because it began to piss down with rain and that would ruin the electical goods they were looting:woot:

Yep those poor rioters were scared of a drop rain:har:

Tribesman

08-14-11, 04:43 AM

Its lucky "call me Dave" didn't ship over the water cannon.
It kicked off in Derry during the apprentices.
3 vehicles were burnt, an attempted arson on one building plus a few petrol bombs and a pipe bomb thrown at police....a very quiet weekend really and they didn't have to use baton rounds or the water cannon at all.
You can see why Orde thinks Cameron is such a pillock:rotfl2:

Betonov

08-14-11, 05:14 AM

So let me ge tthis straight. The goverment gave the green light to use force on the rioters, but the police refused to use it and just went to contain the riots until they lost momentum and stopped. You know your country is going down the drain when the police is smarter than the goverment.
If the police would use excesive force, wouldn't that inflame the rioters even more ??

On the other note, how's London doing. I'll proabibly return next year for a weekend.

Skybird

08-14-11, 05:31 AM

You know your country is going down the drain when the police is smarter than the goverment.
:hmmm:
From our experiences in Berlin every May 1st, I would put that exactly the other way around.

Tribesman

08-14-11, 05:31 AM

So let me ge tthis straight. The goverment gave the green light to use force on the rioters, but the police refused to use it and just went to contain the riots until they lost momentum and stopped.
No, the governement says they gave the green light to use extra levels of force, the police said we can do that anyway but the situation doesn't merit it.

On the other note, how's London doing.
My kids are enjoying it, though I havn't heard from them yet today so maybe they have been looted or arsoned over night

Betonov

08-14-11, 05:51 AM

No, the governement says they gave the green light to use extra levels of force, the police said we can do that anyway but the situation doesn't merit it.

So, the police is stil smarter than the goverment :hmmm:

BossMark

08-14-11, 05:57 AM

So, the police is stil smarter than the goverment :hmmm:
A monkey is smarter than our current government ;)

Betonov

08-14-11, 06:02 AM

A monkey is smarter than our current government ;)

http://www.treehugger.com/monkey-police.jpg

Castout

08-15-11, 01:24 AM

I believe UK riots point that many youths are feeling a sense of detachment from society and from their own government. They may feel that they are not a part of the society or British state in general. They may harbor a deep sense of resentment towards authorities and loath authorities because basically they feel they are shut out. This raises a question what happens to their immediate communities: school, family and neighborhoods. People feel that they are part of a society when they receive social benefits from it in the form of love, relationships, care, nurture, etc and able to contribute back to it be it in the form of time, effort and or financially.

Penguin

08-15-11, 05:48 AM

feeling a sense of detachment from society and from their own government. They may feel that they are not a part of the society or [...] state in general. They may harbor a deep sense of resentment towards authorities and loath authorities because basically they feel they are shut out.

I don't know about the British rioters, but you gave a good description of me. :D

Castout

08-15-11, 07:15 AM

I don't know about the British rioters, but you gave a good description of me. :D

:DL. Nah you're not. If you were you wouldn't be even actively socializing on subsim :O:

Do you have a mask? Do you consider yourself a good thrower? Have you ever mugged someone? Do you have a perversion with HD-ready flat panel TV? Just to make sure LOL.

CaptainMattJ.

08-15-11, 11:48 AM

:DL. Nah you're not. If you were you wouldn't be even actively socializing on subsim :O:

Do you have a mask? Do you consider yourself a good thrower? Have you ever mugged someone? Do you have a perversion with HD-ready flat panel TV? Just to make sure LOL.
Sounds like a job for HunterICX's pal "V"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26h-H6CFO-A&feature=related

Betonov

08-15-11, 11:58 AM

Sounds like a job for HunterICX's pal "V"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26h-H6CFO-A&feature=related

wooooooooo :o

I've watched the movie about five times now and only after seeing this link I saw that almost all of his words start with V :doh:

August

08-15-11, 02:11 PM

Skybird

08-15-11, 02:57 PM

I'm just speculating here but perhaps the reason these hoodlums feel "shut out" is because Europeans wear their alienation from the state like a badge of honor. Hating ones country is almost a rite of passage if what's written on this forum is any indication of your true feelings.

After all how many times have we read how you don't feel any loyalty to your homeland? That you don't feel your representatives represent you? That your government is some evil organization designed to bleed you dry?

Well country is basically another word for community and if todays youth are trashing their own community then perhaps it's because they've been told all their lives not to have any respect or loyalty towards it.

That points at a truth, I think. 'Butquestzion must be asked why it is that the youth does not love its country. Several answers that are neither a compliment to their families as well as to their countries (and their societies), must be taken into account.

For loyalty to a country is something the country cannot expect to be given, or declare a duty by birth, but must be deserved. Which in return means the poersonb expoected to show thjat loyalty must live with personal "code" that in principle is compatible in vlaues with what that country's culture stands for. And if you ask the opening question again on this detail, you also have to take into account differences in ideological backgrounds between person/family, and country. That can express itself in the soical split between social low classe getting left behind, and the rich, as well as the ideological/cultural backgrounds of migrants and the new hosting society they have arrived in.

I don'T say or think you are wriong, you point at the right direction, and I feel what you try to express between the written lines. I agree with that (if I sensed you right). I just think you do not ask far/deep enough.