Bin Laden is dead, official

[Jimbuna]

NICE ONE :salute:

[tater]

If that were real instead of the real speech, his approval would be twice what it is now

[mookiemookie]

Last week, President Obama significantly out-Bushed Bush: We killed Osama Bin Laden. Judging by their top priority for most of the last decade, it would seem that most Republicans will now vote for Obama in 2012. Sure, Bush doubled the size of government and the debt. Big deal---8212;we were fighting a War on Terror. Sure, it---8217;s true that Obama is now tripling the size of government and our debt. But so what---8212;President Obama just killed the world---8217;s top terrorist! ---8220;Obama kept us safe---8221; might even be enough to carry the president through the next election.

http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2011/05/05/obama-kept-us-safe/

I really liked this "What now?" analysis from American Conservative. Not a Pat Buchanan fan, but he's got some good writers over there.

[geetrue]

http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/05/cia-lived-next-door-to-bin-laden-for-months-before-attack

Did you hear?
The CIA was living next door to bin ladens compound for two months and they say ??? that they weren't sure, but they listened and watched for him.

No voice was ever heard from him or clear picture of his face was obtained.

All they had was that a tall man was walking around and exercising, plus the carrier made two trips at the same time bin Ladens messages to the world were released.

I hope and pray that the followers of OBL take the money and run in fact we should give the $25 million dollars reward to them to stop fighting us ...

probably wouldn't work just like my other plan to drop 10,000 cell phones off to them by air.

When they call the only number avaiable for being able to use the cell phone they hear, "Hey! Whats your problem anyway? Can't we just sit down and talk about this"

[tater]

I read that his wife is telling the pakis he barely left the room he was in, much less the house.

While the islamist press calls him a "lion" he seems to have been a cowed man, hiding in a bedroom. Guess he liked to "lead from the rear."

[August]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/comic-riffs/StandingArt/osamafairrington.jpg?uuid=bxhJuHU4EeCp-zLwUkDZpw

[tater]

I'm actually thrilled to hear he spent the last 5 years literally in the same room he was killed in according to his wife. Without leaving.

I dearly hope this is true. It meant he was a broken man. Think about it, so afraid that you have a medium sized house, and you are afraid to leave a room in the middle.

He very much ended up like Saddam in the spider hole.

Also, I read that he stuck his head into the hall, and was fired at (shot missed). Nice to know he probably pissed himself in the moments before he was put down.

[mookiemookie]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/comic-riffs/StandingArt/osamafairrington.jpg?uuid=bxhJuHU4EeCp-zLwUkDZpw

Suuuure. From the memory hole:

After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html)

And who can forget these gems?

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

A couple weeks ago it would have been a funny joke to say that if Obama killed bin Laden, the right would still find something to complain about. And now it's happened. People are loons.

[August]

Suuuure

That Taiban offer was viewed by everyone at the time as just a stalling tactic. They were basically saying that if we stopped the bombing they would allow us to try and convince them that bin Laden was guilty enough to justify them handing him over. How likely do you think that was going to be?

As for your gems you'll also note that at the time Bush made them we didn't know where bin Laden was, or whether he was even still alive. What was Bush supposed to say? "I can think of nothing else?" A year ago it seems to me that Obama wasn't saying much at all about capturing bin Laden.

The fact is that bin Ladens hide wouldn't be nailed to Obamas door right now without George Bush so you Liberals are gonna have to learn to deal with it.

[mookiemookie]

The fact is that bin Ladens hide wouldn't be nailed to Obamas door right now without George Bush so you Liberals are gonna have to learn to deal with it.

Strange how there's no consistency here. Obama inherits the worst recession in decades and the right wingers immediately start screeching about how he needs to stop blaming Bush. But now two and a half years into his presidency the majority of the credit for taking down Osama is due to a guy who hasn't cared about him for 9 years?

You can't have it both ways.

[August]

Strange how there's no consistency here. Obama inherits the worst recession in decades and the right wingers immediately start screeching about how he needs to stop blaming Bush. But now two and a half years into his presidency the majority of the credit for taking down Osama is due to a guy who hasn't cared about him for 9 years?

You can't have it both ways.


Your argument boils down to"If you don't like Oranges you have no right to dislike Apples".

Candidate Obama promised the immediate closure of the Gitmo prison but a couple years later he ends up using information gained through the interrogation of it's detainees to go after bin Laden.

Apparently he can have it both ways right?

[AVGWarhawk]

Strange how there's no consistency here. Obama inherits the worst recession in decades and the right wingers immediately start screeching about how he needs to stop blaming Bush. But now two and a half years into his presidency the majority of the credit for taking down Osama is due to a guy who hasn't cared about him for 9 years?

You can't have it both ways.

Inherited worst recession that was helped along by a Democratic Congress. So yes, he needs to stop blaming Bush. I give no credit to Obama or Bush. It was the guys who went in and did the job they trained for.

[Bakkels]

Your argument boils down to"If you don't like Oranges you have no right to dislike Apples".

Candidate Obama promised the immediate closure of the Gitmo prison but a couple years later he ends up using information gained through the interrogation of it's detainees to go after bin Laden.

Apparently he can have it both ways right?

His argument makes sense, but you choose to ignore it. Aside from that you bring up a point . Obama promised to close down Gitmo in a year.
However, how can you close a prison who's prisoners were deliberately not given any status? What were they? Criminals, suspects, prisoners of war? They were given no status whatsoever, so they could be treated in whatever way their capturers saw fit.
Closing down a facility like that is nearly impossible. And Obama hugely overplayed his hand by saying that he could close Gitmo in a year.
But does failing to clean up the mess your predecessor left you with, make you a worse president? I don't think so.

[mookiemookie]

Your argument boils down to"If you don't like Oranges you have no right to dislike Apples".

Candidate Obama promised the immediate closure of the Gitmo prison but a couple years later he ends up using information gained through the interrogation of it's detainees to go after bin Laden.

Apparently he can have it both ways right?

So if Gitmo was such a godsend (and believe me, I hold it against Obama that he did not stay true to his word and close it down) then why did Bush do nothing with the intelligence gathered there? It's because he didn't care about bin Laden, as he said so. Don't get it twisted - Bush, by his own admission, DID NOT CARE about bin Laden.

[tater]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-raid-al-qaeda-playbook-revealed/story?id=13544154

Either the admin are morons, or this information is useless. Else we'd not know about it, cause publishing it is, well, dumb.

Regarding mookie's post:
Strange how there's no consistency here. Obama inherits the worst recession in decades and the right wingers immediately start screeching about how he needs to stop blaming Bush. But now two and a half years into his presidency the majority of the credit for taking down Osama is due to a guy who hasn't cared about him for 9 years?

You can't have it both ways.

It's not like Obama has enacted any policies to stop the government hemorrhaging money. During the election democrats rightfully bashed Bush overspending, then Obama goes on to spend more into the red in a couple years than Bush did in 8.

Obama took out OBL. I give him credit for that, but he's a showboat, and makes everything about himself. He's the least self-deprecating president in a long time. The intel came about in part because of stuff he himself claims to be very much against. The very framework that allowed the raid was built by Bush for the Global War On Terror.

When OBL disappeared, in order to continue the rest of the fight, it was politically expedient to send the message that OBL was a bit player, marginalized. Its not like the US started ignoring intel on OBL, it's just that they wanted public perception to be that it was not the be all and end all, else every day without nailing him looks like a failure.

You can argue Iraq, but the reality is that AQIraq became (after we invaded) the principle theater of action for AQ. Their humiliating defeat in Iraq dealt AQ a serious blow. Even Sunnis rose up to eject them. What happened to AQ in Iraq was as unforeseen by them as the US response to 9-11 was (it's clear from OBLs statements before 9-112 he expected some tomahawks and a subpoena as a US response).

Regardless, the bulk of credit goes to Obama cause it's on his watch. Still, a better man would have talked less about himself, and more about everyone else.

Credit for the botched handling of the post-OBL information is all Obama, though.

Seriously, they are not showing pictures, but they ARE leaking information about the intel they gathered? WTF? Anything they even mention to the press is instantly NON-actionable. Ideally they'd have bumped off OBL (or interrogated him, then bumped him off), and kept it quiet while they used the intel to kill bad guys. Every time they open their mouths about all the great intel they got in the raid they lose---unless they got crap, and are trying to get the bad guys to move so we can catch them in a mistake.

[tater]

Yeah, I know, it's the daily mail. So sue me...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384358/Was-Osama-bin-Laden-stitched-deputy-Power-struggle-Al-Qaeda-led-Zawahiri-turn-leader.html

Interesting story. The idea is that Zawahiri intentionally tipped the US off because: "The courier who led U.S. forces to Bin Laden was a Pakistani national working for Zawahiri, according to the source."

The claim made in the paper is that they knew he'd be tailed...

Assume that the story is NOT true, but is planted by the US. Might cause some AQ to be rather miffed with their new leader, no?

It's plausible if true, and either way it might create a good civil war in AQ.

[August]

So if Gitmo was such a godsend (and believe me, I hold it against Obama that he did not stay true to his word and close it down) then why did Bush do nothing with the intelligence gathered there?

I wouldn't exactly call it a Godsend but nothing? I wouldn't call putting our people on the trail that eventually led to the most wanted man on the planet "nothing". But whatever, Obama has no problem taking both advantage and credit for something he and you have publicly opposed so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would get so upset over a silly political cartoon.

[Aramike]

Just to interject slightly regarding this article: After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html)

The offer yesterday from Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban's deputy prime minister, to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident was not new but it suggested the Taliban are increasingly weary of the air strikes, which have crippled much of their military and communications assets.I just have one question for you, mookie: What on earth makes you think it would be wise to give AN ENEMY so-called "evidence" of Osama's guilt, when such evidence could give away intelligence tools and capabilities with it?

As August said, it was a stalling tactic. In fact, it was questionable whether or not the Taliban even had the capacity to do so. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2004/060604giveuposama.htm

[Pelle71]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjtNiTm99e8 (mhtml:{D65C707D-19D0-4D75-8440-38BF09BEFEBD}mid://00000004/!x-usc:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjtNiTm99e8) Look at the hole interviev. Very intressting!

[Tribesman]

That Taiban offer was viewed by everyone at the time as just a stalling tactic.
That Taliban offer was the offer the people running any nation would give. If you want them to hand over a suspect then you hand over some evidence to show you have a case.
It does of course lead to complications as asking a government to extradite someone would imply that you have some recognition of that government.
But anyway if it was a stalling tactic what where they supposed to be stalling?
If they were just trying to stall the ongoing bombing why was the offer the same as before the bombing had started?

What on earth makes you think it would be wise to give AN ENEMY so-called "evidence" of Osama's guilt, when such evidence could give away intelligence tools and capabilities with it?


Someones working on a long run of guesswork. At the time of the first request the Taliban were not deemed AN ENEMY, they became AN ENEMY when they didn't hand him over.
And Wow they might find out that the world superpower has really extensive intelligence capabilities.:88)

In fact, it was questionable whether or not the Taliban even had the capacity to do so.
Oh no, he is linking to a wingnut loony who thinks Bin Ladens frozen corpse has just been wheeled out of storage for Obama to get a popularity boost and the whole al-qaida thing is really a scare story created by the Whitehouse branch of the secret world government:doh:

Yeah, I know, it's the daily mail. So sue me...

But it might be true, Glen Beck is also running with that theory:rotfl2:

[MH]

But it might be true, Glen Beck is also running with that theory:rotfl2:

Reading your post make me think that GB is maybe correct :D

[MH]

So if Gitmo was such a godsend (and believe me, I hold it against Obama that he did not stay true to his word and close it down) then why did Bush do nothing with the intelligence gathered there? It's because he didn't care about bin Laden, as he said so. Don't get it twisted - Bush, by his own admission, DID NOT CARE about bin Laden.

Another case of deep reasoning.

[MH]

His argument makes sense, but you choose to ignore it. Aside from that you bring up a point . Obama promised to close down Gitmo in a year.
However, how can you close a prison who's prisoners were deliberately not given any status? What were they? Criminals, suspects, prisoners of war? They were given no status whatsoever, so they could be treated in whatever way their capturers saw fit.
Closing down a facility like that is nearly impossible. And Obama hugely overplayed his hand by saying that he could close Gitmo in a year.
But does failing to clean up the mess your predecessor left you with, make you a worse president? I don't think so.

Maybe its one thing to shout election propaganda and another when you are the president.
When all info is available to you.

[Dowly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjtNiTm99e8 (mhtml:%7BD65C707D-19D0-4D75-8440-38BF09BEFEBD%7Dmid://00000004/%21x-usc:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjtNiTm99e8) Look at the hole interviev. Very intressting!

Alex Jones? Really? :DL

[joea]

Alex Jones? Really? :DL
:har: Russia Today's favourite American pundit.

Can't open the link for some reason.

[Dowly]

:har: Russia Today's favourite American pundit.

Can't open the link for some reason.

This should work if you REALLY care :DL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjtNiTm99e8

[mookiemookie]

I wouldn't exactly call it a Godsend but nothing? I wouldn't call putting our people on the trail that eventually led to the most wanted man on the planet "nothing". But whatever, Obama has no problem taking both advantage and credit for something he and you have publicly opposed so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would get so upset over a silly political cartoon.

Am I happy Osama is dead? Of course. Am I happy about the trillions of dollars have been wasted, thousands of American casualties, hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and the existence of a place like Gitmo? No.

[tater]

You don't think in an "intelligence war" we should take prisoners, or do you just not like that it's called, "gitmo?"

Not sure what the total cost of the GWOT has been, but at least we got something for the money. We've spent as much in the red in the last 2 years on nothing worthwhile at all, just pork, and political payback. You can be against the human cost, but since the Obama admin, no one on the left can complain about cost anymore, sorry. The left is unwilling to consider any realistic cuts to get us balanced at this point. A trillion in cuts over 10 years (Obama) when we're spending maybe 1.5 trillion in the red per year?

Obama deserves credit where it is due for ordering Osama's execution, but the entire infrastructure the raid was based on was built by his predecessor in the name of "war," where many of his opponents were calling for dealing with it as a law enforcement issue---notably Senator Kerry. Being upset with gitmo seems to fit that mold---they want civilian trials for people who should not ever have a trial until the war is over. If it's a war, you hold them til it's over, then try them. If you think it's a criminal justice issue, then you try them now.

Note that summary execution is not really compatible with the notion of trials. Bin Laden was killed with no due process (among MANY others ordered by the President, most of whom are "presumed" bad guys), yet some still imagine that gitmo is somehow worse? That boggles my mind. If gitmo is bad, then extra-judicial killing MUST be worse to anyone even a little rational. Make no mistake in talking about gitmo and waterboarding, to be consistent you need to say that Osama should have been captured (which he would easily have been had that been the orders, I have no doubt in the Seals abilities along those lines).

Again, for clarity, Obama will get the lion's share of OBL killin' credit, and deserves it by virtue of being the boss when it happened, period. Still, he stands on other shoulders. Personally, I think that had he explicitly given credit to Bush he'd have bounced higher. Americans like that sort of bipartisanship, and it would not only have been the right thing to do, but also the politically expedient thing to do (a remarkable confluence).

[tater]

Extra-judicial killing.

http://pubrecord.org/world/5801/report-drone-strikes-increased/

The administration has bumped off between 326 and 538 people with drone strikes. These are not all shots at Bin Laden, they are aimed at lesser targets. There are not indictments on these targets, just "actionable intelligence."

Note that the low number is almost 50% higher than the number of people currently held at gitmo. The high estimate is more than twice gitmo's count. That's just the dead, not the maimed and injured. Given the indiscriminate nature of explosives, and the fact that our enemy intentionally hides among women and children (look at the number of men at OBL's hideout vs women and kids for an example), we can assume that many of those deaths and injuries are "collateral." Some are just mistakes, too.

You can't be for drone attacks and against Gitmo and claim rationality.

[Gerald]

The fact that these kinds of attacks are now being published, is not so strange in the water after OBL, the fact is that there is no secret, that stuff out now and then.

[Tribesman]

You can't be for drone attacks and against Gitmo and claim rationality.
Of course you can, it is those who are in favour of gitmo but are unable to justify it as what it is who lack the rationality.
People like you tater.:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, no, you're the one who's crazy! You can't prove you're not, so you must be!

[Jimbuna]

Not sure what's worse for Osama: the fact he got found and killed, or that he now has to explain to a bunch of suicide bombers where their virgins are :hmmm:

[Growler]

Wait wait wait.

Global WAR on Terror, right?

It's a WAR. People die in war. Sometimes, they're non-combatants. Sometimes they're not.

I love this. People scream to their politicians after terrorist attacks, "Keep us safe!" The politicians, eager to be reelected, do so. And when the press starts printing pictures of blown-up people and prisoners from the other side, they start screaming, "Wait! Keep THEM safe, too!"

We are one seriously bent species.

[Torplexed]

Not sure what's worse for Osama: the fact he got found and killed, or that he now has to explain to a bunch of suicide bombers where their virgins are :hmmm:

They find there was an error in translating the Quran. You actually get Virgils instead of virgins. :03:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BqGK2vXYc9w/SyHFfmcubqI/AAAAAAAACgY/FWayQxSotWc/s400/rednecks.jpg

[Gerald]

They find there was an error in translating the Quran. You actually get Virgils instead of virgins. :03:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BqGK2vXYc9w/SyHFfmcubqI/AAAAAAAACgY/FWayQxSotWc/s400/rednecks.jpgLooks like taken from the "The Last Trip"

[TLAM Strike]

Looks like taken from the "The Last Trip" Or "Deliverance Part II"

[Gerald]

Or "Deliverance Part II"Right..:up:

[Jimbuna]

They find there was an error in translating the Quran. You actually get Virgils instead of virgins. :03:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BqGK2vXYc9w/SyHFfmcubqI/AAAAAAAACgY/FWayQxSotWc/s400/rednecks.jpg

I wonder which one he'd pick? :DL

[tater]

Of course you can, it is those who are in favour of gitmo but are unable to justify it as what it is who lack the rationality.
People like you tater.:yep:

What is the problem with Gitmo, exactly? They are POWs, and we've very nicely indeed let most go from Gitmo before the war is even over.

I can justify Gitmo completely. We capture people for gaining intelligence so that we can minimize civilian casualties by gaining intel that allows us to discriminate in targeting. They are then held until the war is over, or we decide to try them if guilty of war crimes.

I'm fine with drone attacks, too.

You, apparently, are against gitmo. I assume you think they deserve trials before hostilities end? Maybe just to sort out the innocent from the enemy combatants? I'll accept the latter as reasonable, and even "nice" of us to try and do, but there might have been conscripts in the nazi or imperial japanese militaries who were not willing combatants, or who never actually fired a shot, and they were POWs, regardless, and were never sorted out (many of the latter, and some of the former faced summary execution on the front). Hard cheese for them.

Drone attacks are killings. The evidence used to make target selections is exactly the same as used to grab people up. If 15% of those in gitmop are innocent, then it's a safe bet that 15% of those targeted with drones are also innocent. The difference is that the drone targets often include "collateral damage" targets that are innocent regardless of the status of the target. Drone attacks involve zero due process, and in fact kill innocents (a 100% removal of liberty compared to a XX% removal of liberty for detainees). In fact they have likely killed many more innocents than people are currently held at gitmo.

Please, defend drone attacks using the same rationale that attacks gitmo. I'm open to a cogent argument.

[mookiemookie]

I wonder which one he'd pick? :DL

Not sure he'd have a choice. :rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

Not sure he'd have a choice. :rotfl2:

I'd make the bastid take em all......at the same time :DL

[Tribesman]

I can justify Gitmo completely
No you can't, the only way you have ever attempted to justify it is by portraying it as something that it isn't, and you have just done exactlythe same again.
Try again tater, what is the facility annd what is its purpose, until you get that straight all your "justifications" are nowhere even near the subject let alone justifying it.

Please, defend drone attacks using the same rationale that attacks gitmo.
Errrr ...what is the specific purpose of drones and the attacks which are launched using them?
Are they doing it?

See how easy it is, if the answers to questions match you can get the justification.
But your aguement is like saying drones scare pigeons, some pigeons are scared, that means the drones attacks are justified.

[vienna]

They find there was an error in translating the Quran. You actually get Virgils instead of virgins. :03:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BqGK2vXYc9w/SyHFfmcubqI/AAAAAAAACgY/FWayQxSotWc/s400/rednecks.jpg


"Say, Osama, you sure got a pretty mouth..."

[Growler]

They find there was an error in translating the Quran. You actually get Virgils instead of virgins. :03:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BqGK2vXYc9w/SyHFfmcubqI/AAAAAAAACgY/FWayQxSotWc/s400/rednecks.jpg

Poor Virgil.

[Susexx]

Probably he has died so:
http://www.yapfiles.ru/show/244052/b62bd4c8552bff8ab928cfa439d3d89d.flv.html

[Dowly]

^ :rotfl2:

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13323284

[Subnuts]

How it really went down:
Osama bin Laden firefight footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL6IisL2qlU)

[Jimbuna]

Probably he has died so:
http://www.yapfiles.ru/show/244052/b62bd4c8552bff8ab928cfa439d3d89d.flv.html

Nice one :DL

[Growler]

How it really went down:
Osama bin Laden firefight footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL6IisL2qlU)

"Talk Abbotabad place to hide" LOL

[Einsman]

United States in my opinion has been quite discredited by the way he has performed the operation (have played the role of jury, judge and executioner). You can not fight terrorism with more terrorism. Enter a sovereign country and do what they want ...

U.S. policy in many countries has not exactly been "very democratic. " Many South American democracies have been overthrown (Arbenz in Guatemala "" Operation PBSUCCESS, Allende in Chile, etc.) I am against any form of totalitarianism and terrorism but unfortunately who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind.

President Obama has a large challenge ahead: Health Reform. Less military spending and more internal reforms. If you do not have access to decent public health ... It is more profitable to scare people with possible terrorist acts. It's much easier to control. Are you afraid of not thinking.

Sorry for my English.

[krashkart]

President Obama has a large challenge ahead: Health Reform. Less military spending and more internal reforms. If you do not have access to decent public health ... It is more profitable to scare people with possible terrorist acts. It's much easier to control. Are you afraid of not thinking.


It would certainly be nice if the focus would shift toward fixing our internal problems. In fact, it might even be unequivocally the most awesome thing that could ever happen to our country. However, we all know how important it is to go tromping around the globe smacking every little problem with a great big hammer... never mind that it costs trillions of vital dollars. :damn:

/catharsis :oops:


Sorry for my English.

Your grasp of English is much better than you've given yourself credit for. :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

No you can't, the only way you have ever attempted to justify it is by portraying it as something that it isn't, and you have just done exactlythe same again.
Try again tater, what is the facility annd what is its purpose, until you get that straight all your "justifications" are nowhere even near the subject let alone justifying it.


Errrr ...what is the specific purpose of drones and the attacks which are launched using them?
Are they doing it?

See how easy it is, if the answers to questions match you can get the justification.
But your aguement is like saying drones scare pigeons, some pigeons are scared, that means the drones attacks are justified.
You're babbling. He gave a reasoned and reasonable argument. He may be wrong, but you're not addressing his argument, you're just telling him he's wrong because you're right, and you end by making up a silly comparison that has not relation to anything he said. You like to tell other people they don't know anything, yet you don't present any real case, just your anger. This is why you get accused of trolling so much.

I don't claim to know the answers here, but at least Tater tries to discuss the issue, which you don't seem to be capable of.

[Tribesman]

He gave a reasoned and reasonable argument.
No, if the arguement he gives has nothing to do with the purpose of the facility then it is neither a reasoned or reasonable arguement.

you end by making up a silly comparison that has not relation to anything he said.
You mean pigeons are nothing to do with the intentions of the makers of the of drones and scaring pigeons are not what drones were meant to be used for?
whodathunkit
but if they do scare pigeons that means it is a reasonable arguement for their existance and use isn't it

I don't claim to know the answers here, but at least Tater tries to discuss the issue, which you don't seem to be capable of.
No tater avoids the issue, he has to as even the former sec. of defence says it wasn't being used as it was intended..... and he was involved setting the whole operation up and justifying its creation in the first place so he should know:yep:
Steve what tater is justifying with his arguement is just about every official prison or holding facility apart from the one in question.

[MH]

No, if the arguement he gives has nothing to do with the purpose of the facility then it is neither a reasoned or reasonable arguement.


You mean pigeons are nothing to do with the intentions of the makers of the of drones and scaring pigeons are not what drones were meant to be used for?
whodathunkit
but if they do scare pigeons that means it is a reasonable arguement for their existance and use isn't it


No tater avoids the issue, he has to as even the former sec. of defence says it wasn't being used as it was intended..... and he was involved setting the whole operation up and justifying its creation in the first place so he should know:yep:
Steve what tater is justifying with his arguement is just about every official prison or holding facility apart from the one in question.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwcGftOFonzs4ef6gZgB-rHYtT2-PtcgzRVkkh2o4NVGhVnWOz

[August]

I don't know why do you guys even bother. Nothing good ever comes from feeding the troll. :dead:

[magic452]

AMEN. :sign_yeah:

Magic

[AVGWarhawk]

Great! Tribesman here! :shifty:

:O:

[Torplexed]

Great! Tribesman here! :shifty:

:O:

Where!?

Oh.....there.

http://images.nymag.com/daily/intel/20090422_tribesman_190x190.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

"As nervous as I was about this whole process, the one thing I didn't lose sleep over was the possibility of taking bin Laden out," Obama said. "Justice was done. And I think that anyone who would question that the perpetrator of mass murder on American soil didn't deserve what he got needs to have their head examined."


Dang, Obama sounding very Bushesque. Obama for President!

[AVGWarhawk]

Dang, Obama sounding very Bushesque.

Not really. I did see any made up words and mis-remembering something. :DL

[Tribesman]

I don't know why do you guys even bother. Nothing good ever comes from feeding the troll.
Is August still upset about getting told off for being a troll?
Isn't it funny that August decides to troll on a regular basis just to tell people about trolling:yeah:

[tonschk]

More and more (as usual) lies from the US government :DL

[joea]

More and more (as usual) lies from the US government :DL
Right so, why did Al Queda scream for revenge for OBL's death then? :roll:

P.S. Bush is no longer president.

[Sailor Steve]

More and more (as usual) lies from the US government :DL
Says the guy whose sig leads to the silliest site on the web.

[Growler]

Says the guy whose sig leads to the silliest site on the web.


Hey, now, Youtube has some quality stuff!:har:

[Jimbuna]

Says the guy whose sig leads to the silliest site on the web.

TBH I'm truly amazed that Neal allows such disgraceful material on his forum :nope:

[vienna]

http://www.cagle.com/news/OsamaObama/images/rogers.jpg (http://cagle.com/caglecards/main.asp?image=/news/OsamaObama/images/rogers.jpg)


http://www.cagle.com/news/OsamaObama/images/plante.jpg (http://cagle.com/caglecards/main.asp?image=/news/OsamaObama/images/plante.jpg)

[Ducimus]

I just have to reiterate.

For one, i am insanely surprised Osama was not only found, but killed. I never thought he would be found, and i never thought he would ever be captured alive. So I am extremely happy that this "man" is dead.

I say "this man" because anyone who can mastermind the murder of thousands doesn't even deserve the recognition, or the thought of being a human ----ing being. I rate that animal's death as a historical significance on par with the september 11th event in itself. I do not believe we should have let that animal drag us into two simultainious wars, but I do believe we should have spared no expense, and let no triviality, or legality get between us, and bringing final justice to that SOB.

My only regret in the whole affair, is I think he died too quickly. For what he wrought, a bullet was too merciful.

[Reece]

My only regret in the whole affair, is I think he died too quickly. For what he wrought, a bullet was too merciful.Agree 100%, pity he wasn't captured alive, I can think of a dozen or so methods starting from humiliation and working slowly till death, but then "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord" so I best contain myself!:yep:

[Ducimus]

Agree 100%, pity he wasn't captured alive, I can think of a dozen or so methods starting from humiliation and working slowly till death, but then "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord" so I best contain myself!:yep:

Yeah i can think of a bunch of things myself. As for vengeance... well.. ive never been the religious sort. Spiritual maybe.. but not religious. I would have no problem adopting a Frank Castle like attitude. There's also little saying, "Forgiveness is between them and god", an office cube dweller like myself isn't going to be arranging the meeting, but somebody should.

[Reece]

There's also little saying, "Forgiveness is between them and god", an office cube dweller like myself isn't going to be arranging the meeting, but somebody should.
That would be like introducing the Titanic to an iceberg... it wouldn't go down to well!!:03:

[krashkart]

That would be like introducing the Titanic to an iceberg... it wouldn't go down to well!!:03:


I see what you did there. :lol:

[Ducimus]

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/23000/Osama-Bin-Laden-Dead--23406.jpg

[Reece]

:har: Good one!:yeah:

[MothBalls]

Is he still dead?

[AVGWarhawk]

:haha:

[tonschk]

Story of Bin Laden's death looks like staged fairytale -- military analyst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta2_P7JZ9qs

[MH]

Story of Bin Laden's death looks like staged fairytale -- military analyst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta2_P7JZ9qs

Yevgeni Hruchev:rotfl2:

He talked for 2 minutes.
he could read it all about on subsim. :D
Actually there are much better theories in this very thread.
Military Expert lol

[MH]

So what Obama will do in 2 years?
Say it was just a joke?

[tonschk]

In the US, former deputy assistant secretary at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs under three different administrations, Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik (http://www.opednews.com/Diary/Al-Qaeda-is-a-CIA-proxy-by-Saman-Mohammadi-110506-207.html?show=votes) claimed his readiness, on a May 3th interview on the Alex Jones Show, to stand before a grand jury and reveal the name of a senior general who had personally told him that 9/11 was a false flag attack.


:cool:


I Agree :up:

[MH]

Living in a Matrix?
which pill blue or Red?


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSU-Z9ljM3K5-59Ti8EwBgJIh9Jeq6BjFOhQDVdw32f9tbf46Vx2g

[krashkart]

Living in a Matrix?
which pill blue or Red?


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSU-Z9ljM3K5-59Ti8EwBgJIh9Jeq6BjFOhQDVdw32f9tbf46Vx2g

Ummm... I don't really like either color. Do you have a chartreuse pill? :D

[AVGWarhawk]

http://lolsnaps.com/upload_pic/4472.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

http://lolsnaps.com/upload_pic/4411.jpg

[MH]

Sorry :Dfor trolling

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJOohQ37swcALDRoRWqwG_v2m5on2Zl f7Fjl6GDjufYzL_07V3

[Jimbuna]

I Agree :up:

A sycophant of 'The Truth' now as well I see :nope:

:zzz:

[Sailor Steve]

II say "this man" because anyone who can mastermind the murder of thousands doesn't even deserve the recognition, or the thought of being a human ----ing being.
I would agree, but unfortunately man is the only animal capable of the rational thought required to "mastermind" anything. No matter how irrational that thought may be, we're stuck with that sad fact.

[Aramike]

I would agree, but unfortunately man is the only animal capable of the rational thought required to "mastermind" anything. No matter how irrational that thought may be, we're stuck with that sad fact.Technicalities.

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl2: True.

On the other hand, calling someone like that "subhuman" is an insult to all the lower species.

[Jimbuna]

:rotfl2: True.

On the other hand, calling someone like that "subhuman" is an insult to all the lower species.

Rgr that :yep:

[Aramike]

:rotfl2: True.

On the other hand, calling someone like that "subhuman" is an insult to all the lower species.Indeed! :salute:

[August]

:rotfl2: True.

On the other hand, calling someone like that "subhuman" is an insult to all the lower species.


Since he was buried at sea that officially makes him lower than whale do do. :yep:

[krashkart]

He is now crab bait. :)

[Ducimus]

He is now crab bait. :)

Nah, I'll wager that by now, bits and pieces of him are being excreted out the ass of all form of fish and aquatic wildlife as a scummy residual waste product smeared across the ocean floor.

[krashkart]

Nah, I'll wager that by now, bits and pieces of him are being excreted out the ass of all form of fish and aquatic wildlife as a scummy residual waste product smeared across the ocean floor.


I would wager that you are probably correct. :yep:

[Reece]

Nah, I'll wager that by now, bits and pieces of him are being excreted out the ass of all form of fish and aquatic wildlife as a scummy residual waste product smeared across the ocean floor.
Yuck!!:oops:
However... You could call that a job well done!!:salute:

[Torplexed]

Nah, I'll wager that by now, bits and pieces of him are being excreted out the ass of all form of fish and aquatic wildlife as a scummy residual waste product smeared across the ocean floor.

http://www.moviefancentral.com/images/pictures/52692/image_6476fd91d.JPG?1304455796

[Jimbuna]

Nah, I'll wager that by now, bits and pieces of him are being excreted out the ass of all form of fish and aquatic wildlife as a scummy residual waste product smeared across the ocean floor.

With that abhorrent thought in mind I may have to stop eating fish now :hmmm:

[TarJak]

With that abhorrent thought in mind I may have to stop eating fish now :hmmm:Your cod and chips should be safe Jim. I doubt any of them were in the vicinty of the burial.:haha:

[Jimbuna]

Your cod and chips should be safe Jim. I doubt any of them were in the vicinty of the burial.:haha:

Here's hoping :DL

[Ducimus]

And here i thought i put a little artistry into that statement. :O:

[August]

And here i thought i put a little artistry into that statement. :O:

Considering the normal English diet I suspect most of the distaste is just posturing... :DL

[geetrue]

What do Howard Hughes, Elvis Presley and Osama bin Laden have in common?

They are dead and they will never walk this earth again ... :yep:

However many think they never did die ... this few will always keep that false notion till their end is the end :arrgh!:

[Reece]

Your cod and chips should be safe Jim. I doubt any of them were in the vicinty of the burial.:haha:Yes but minute pieces will spread over the whole world so eventually we'll all have a little Osama in all of us!:o Gad what a horrid thought!!:doh::timeout:

[TarJak]

Brings a whole new meaning to the term bottom feeder.:dead:

[Jimbuna]

http://www.maxfarquar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/bin-laden-buried-at-sea.jpg

[vienna]

I think it would be poetic justice if Bin Laden goes to the after life looking for Allah and instead finds someone named Yahweh saying "Oy, are you in trouble"...

[Skybird]

I was enjoying some reading in German newspapers saying that they have founbd a huge collection of porno videos on Osama's computers. And as iof this would not alrready be enough to make the Jihadis cry in despair, said articles claim that it is not known in the public but in the American intel services that the videos that get shot by American drones also frequently show that desperate proud examples of the male Jihad seeking relief from internal pressure by abusing donkeys and goats.

:haha:

Some years ago a research done showed that several of the most ultra-islamic, most suppressive countries are on the top places of a global list showing how many clicks Internet poon sites receive from various countries.

:har:

Too bad that the old theory of Christian moralists that masturbation consumes your brain, was not verified. Else the term "sex-bomb" would give us a whole new weapon to fight to fight them!

[Torplexed]

I was enjoying some reading in German newspapers saying that they have founbd a huge collection of porno videos on Osama's computers.

No doubt his collection included such hot titles as Debbie Does Damascus, Burqa Raid and Sheik Your Booty. :03:

[MH]

No doubt his collection included such hot titles as Debbie Does Damascus, Burqa Raid and Sheik Your Booty. :03:


"Adventures of Shahid in Heaven" must be still the hit.

[Sailor Steve]

No doubt his collection included such hot titles as Debbie Does Damascus, Burqa Raid and Sheik Your Booty. :03:

Zappa fan, eh? Who knew?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/zappa.jpg

[MH]

Some years ago a research done showed that several of the most ultra-islamic, most suppressive countries are on the top places of a global list showing how many clicks Internet poon sites receive from various countries.




Yeah west is corrupting.
They got it right.

[MothBalls]

Is Osama still dead?

[Jimbuna]

I had breakfast with him this morning but something smelled a little fishy :hmmm:

[Torplexed]

I had breakfast with him this morning but something smelled a little fishy :hmmm:

Could be the sturgeon you get with your virgins. :)

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Sturgeon-with-virgin.jpg

[Jimbuna]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uj198pcnfuo/TcTLs1YKDHI/AAAAAAAAAOA/dFESF8GCFcI/s1600/BinLaden_FishFood.jpg

[Reece]

:har: As you say Jim, this is all a little fishy!:yep:

[Ducimus]

I still say he's well past being fish food.

http://conservationreport.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/shark-feces.jpg

[TorpX]

Thank-you for that image. :haha:

And on second thought, forget the fish, I'll have the hamburger instead.......

[Jimbuna]

http://whatdidyoubringme.homestead.com/files/Tshirts/Fish/images_troll/humor/OSalmonBinLaden712.jpg

[Growler]

http://whatdidyoubringme.homestead.com/files/Tshirts/Fish/images_troll/humor/OSalmonBinLaden712.jpg

Free-range? Or farmed?

[Iceman]

We did not forget....no one is untouchable or safe form someone who wants to do harm is the sad fact. An intelligent person understands this which is why I knew someday he would join the ranks of Saddam and Zarqawi and the likes of these guys (http://www.elistmania.com/juice/top_10_al_qaeda_leaders_killed_since_9_11/).

I do not celebrate the death of anyone but people like these I do not cry for either...it was something that needed to be done in my opinion to help America heal and send a message to anyone else who may attempt such things...you will not get away with your deeds without paying for it.

Fear the ping. :ping::up::arrgh!::dead:

[Jimbuna]

We did not forget....no one is untouchable or safe form someone who wants to do harm is the sad fact. An intelligent person understands this which is why I knew someday he would join the ranks of Saddam and Zarqawi and the likes of these guys (http://www.elistmania.com/juice/top_10_al_qaeda_leaders_killed_since_9_11/).

I do not celebrate the death of anyone but people like these I do not cry for either...it was something that needed to be done in my opinion to help America heal and send a message to anyone else who may attempt such things...you will not get away with your deeds without paying for it.

Fear the ping. :ping::up::arrgh!::dead:

^+1 :yep:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

"Justice has been done"

:rotfl2:

Its amazing what the media does with people's minds...

Laden didn't do anything. The US govern did.

[Freiwillige]

"Justice has been done"

:rotfl2:

Its amazing what the media does with people's minds...

Laden didn't do anything. The US govern did.

Does that include the First bombing of the WTC? The bombing of the USS Cole? The African embassy bombings that Bin Laden himself took credit for?

[Tribesman]

Its amazing what the media does with people's minds...

Laden didn't do anything. The US govern did.
It must be some very strange media you are watching and some even stranger people you have been listening to........
or you are just talking rubbish:yep:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I have over 5gb of documents and videos about how the WTC was controlled demolition and the involvements of US government with both WTC AND Bin Laden, things you wouldn't believe.

The word "Terrorism" in every newspaper have a purpose. You gotta see thru it.

[CCIP]

Well now, measuring information value by gigabytes and public obscurity is a great way to make an argument...

Because it's poorly compressed, comes from suppressed sources and isn't acknowledged by by brainless public doesn't buy it, it must be true.

Also, why is it that some people choose to turn every thread into the "[insert agency/government/nationality] did 9/11"?

All of this also goes a long way to explain Bin Laden's public claims of responsibility for other acts (Embassies, 96 bombing, USS Cole) noted above. Unless of course he was in the basement of the Pentagon/White House/Kremlin/The Judaeo-Masonic Lobby's Secret Headquarters/Wal Mart all along...

[MH]

I have over 5gb of documents and videos about how the WTC was controlled demolition and the involvements of US government with both WTC AND Bin Laden, things you wouldn't believe.

The word "Terrorism" in every newspaper have a purpose. You gotta see thru it.

No i wouldn't believe but that's probably because my memory got wiped out.

http://images.hitfix.com/photos/637150/MIB_3_having_trouble_article_story_main.jpg

You batter watch your back....:ping:

[Tribesman]

I have over 5gb of documents and videos about how the WTC was controlled demolition and the involvements of US government with both WTC AND Bin Laden, things you wouldn't believe.

The word "Terrorism" in every newspaper have a purpose. You gotta see thru it.
It is proven that the WTC wasn't a government job, the government had sunk all its scarce resources in creating a fake american to becomefuture president and couldn't afford the demolition job. They may have had some resources to spare if they had some foresight but they were stuck with high interest payments for their fake moon landing and were saddled with ongoing feed bills for area 51 as no one reaslised the aliens could eat so much.

[Takeda Shingen]

I have over 5gb of documents and videos about how the WTC was controlled demolition and the involvements of US government with both WTC AND Bin Laden, things you wouldn't believe.

You're right; I wouldn't believe it.

[joea]

It is proven that the WTC wasn't a government job, the government had sunk all its scarce resources in creating a fake american to becomefuture president and couldn't afford the demolition job. They may have had some resources to spare if they had some foresight but they were stuck with high interest payments for their fake moon landing and were saddled with ongoing feed bills for area 51 as no one reaslised the aliens could eat so much.
:har::har:

[Bakkels]

... as no one realised the aliens could eat so much.

:haha::yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

I have over 5gb of documents and videos about how the WTC was controlled demolition and the involvements of US government with both WTC AND Bin Laden, things you wouldn't believe.
I've seen most of that crap, and it's crap. What I can't believe is that I used to respect you.

[Catfish]

It's hard to believe, and it may be true or not. But if you look for CIA action in the last decades, and especially state terrorism (program "Gladio" in Europe) you get at least a bit worried. As usual it helps to think about whom serves such action most.
The two other "terrorist" assaults in Europ (Spain etc.) now seem to not have islamist background, indeed the people involved reported it to be a drill that went out of hand due to too much exposives (it was even announced by the authorities).
Greetings
Catfish

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I've seen most of that crap, and it's crap. What I can't believe is that I used to respect you.


Cheap shot, Steve... :arrgh!:

Well, you all might call me "conspirationist", but what CAN you prove or take for granted nowdays? To be honest, what the media feeds me taste as crappy as the underground stuff. Only thing is, the underground stuff makes more sense in my head.

The government is filthy with corruption and things done in the wrong way, so why would day be totally honest and transparent when it comes to giving information to the mass?

If I was the man behind the curtain, I would make the mass believe what I wanted them to believe, what was more convenient for keeping them under control.

[Bakkels]

If I was the man behind the curtain, I would make the mass believe what I wanted them to believe, what was more convenient for keeping them under control.

Which is exactly the psychologic profile of 'conspirationists'. Just two weeks ago a study was released that made a psychological profile of people that tend to believe in conspiracies, and it concludes that these people more often use manipulative techniques in real life. According to this study, they project their own personality on the way they see the world. Of course this study could be part of a conspiracy as well..
No offense by the way Phillip, but I just thought the study was worth mentioning. And it makes sense to me.

That being said, questioning the media is always a good thing. Especially in matters like these, usually our whole perception of the truth is solely based on what we see on tv. Now I can't and won't believe all journalists are part of some elaborate plot to make people believe a certain 'truth'. That's just BS. But I am critical at how easy journalists will often believe what they are being told.

[Sailor Steve]

Cheap shot, Steve... :arrgh!:
Well, it is crap. The first problem with any conspiracy is that it only takes one person involved to blow the wistle, and this would have taken dozens to pull off, if not hundreds. Please, show me any piece of so-called evidence and I'll bet I can show you what's wrong with it.

No, wait, that will only prove I'm in denial.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Which is exactly the psychologic profile of 'conspirationists'. Just two weeks ago a study was released that made a psychological profile of people that tend to believe in conspiracies, and it concludes that these people more often use manipulative techniques in real life. According to this study, they project their own personality on the way they see the world. Of course this study could be part of a conspiracy as well..
No offense by the way Phillip, but I just thought the study was worth mentioning. And it makes sense to me.

That being said, questioning the media is always a good thing. Especially in matters like these, usually our whole perception of the truth is solely based on what we see on tv. Now I can't and won't believe all journalists are part of some elaborate plot to make people believe a certain 'truth'. That's just BS. But I am critical at how easy journalists will often believe what they are being told.


It's an interesting study, and part of it is correct: People do see what they wanna see, do believe what they wanna believe. But of course that if they do a thousand studies about conspirationism, all thousand will show evidence of how it's all in people's minds and it's all a fiction.

But the info the TV passes to you have a source. You think the journalists will make a deep study for weeks to determine what caused the building to collapse and then tell the public? No. The government will tell the media what to tell the mass. Has always been like that, will always be like that.

So, I do not believe right away whatever I hear, whatever I read. No. I dig down for more info and after I have enough evidence, I mount up my own conclusions. I don't watch tv, don't read newspaper. That's not the raw info at all, thats only the info that has been put in front of your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Well, it is crap. The first problem with any conspiracy is that it only takes one person involved to blow the wistle, and this would have taken dozens to pull off, if not hundreds. Please, show me any piece of so-called evidence and I'll bet I can show you what's wrong with it.

No, wait, that will only prove I'm in denial.


The amount of people giving testimonials about what happened, both victims and scientists, people that were there, people that have some info... I've seen and read a huge amount of stuff about it.

So, we're down to this: 100 people tell you "It wasn't", and show weak evidence or no evidence at all. Another 100 people tell you "It was", showing some evidence.

Is it possible that the evidence is fake, and they convinced a thousand people to say the same thing? Yes. Anything is possible.

But IMO one side makes more sense than the other. I think in the end is a matter of personal preference about what to believe.

I say it all looks too suspicious, and even some stuff look ridiculous, impossible to chew. Feels like their feeding me crap.

Here between you and me, this stuff is just like religion. You tell a believer that god doens't exist and jesus is basically the adoration of the sun and church is just a money harvesting and mass controlling device, and he will not listen to you, might even call you crazy, and no matter how much evidence you show him, he will grab hold of his beliefs and fight to protect it. People are so desperately attached to their beliefs that they can't live without it, it's impossible to rip them of it. So no, it doens't surprise me what people believe and what people don't, and I don't ever lose my time trying to change people's minds, cos to be honest I think anybody have the right to believe whatever crap they want to believe.

What is the truth anyway? Nothing can be proved, not my theory, not yours. Maybe neither is the truth. All I have is a theory, the best I could craft with the info I gathered, and I'm happy with it.

So, I guess we can agree to disagree, eh? And I won't respect you 1% less just cos your believes don't match mine. :03:

[CCIP]

I think you're right in that in some sense, it's always a matter of belief - there's probably noone out there who has actually seen all the evidence and has the expertise to interpret it on their own, meaning that anyone's views of it boil down to a) who they trust as credible sources of analysis; and b) common sense (which is itself 'sourced' from somewhere). The amount of evidence anyone has on their hands, however, is in that case not relevant if they only have a narrow view on interpreting it.

But here's where I'm with Steve and where I think the Achilles' heel of conspiracy theories lies: in order to pull something so complex off and cover it up, you have to push the data through a very narrow interpretation channel. And that interpretation channel has to take as granted some very unlikely and un-common-sense things, along with the notion that what we know about the workings of public officials is a complete lie. No matter how much data you have, you still have to force it into a convoluted sort of puzzle. Sheer probability and breadth of perspective tends to defeat this most of the time. In the real world, the convoluted version is very rarely the right one. The narrow version tends to ignore broader interpretations and realities of how information travels these days.

Sadly, the fact that 9/11 itself was such a bizzare and incompetently-handled event easily lends itself to these things.

[Sailor Steve]

The amount of people giving testimonials about what happened, both victims and scientists, people that were there, people that have some info... I've seen and read a huge amount of stuff about it.

So, we're down to this: 100 people tell you "It wasn't", and show weak evidence or no evidence at all. Another 100 people tell you "It was", showing some evidence.
Did any one of the 'witnesses' see anybody plant even one of the hundreds of charges it would take to accomplish that destruction? That's a pretty big secret to keep right there. That's all I ask for - one single piece of actual evidence.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I think you're right in that in some sense, it's always a matter of belief - there's probably noone out there who has actually seen all the evidence and has the expertise to interpret it on their own, meaning that anyone's views of it boil down to a) who they trust as credible sources of analysis; and b) common sense (which is itself 'sourced' from somewhere). The amount of evidence anyone has on their hands, however, is in that case not relevant if they only have a narrow view on interpreting it.

But here's where I'm with Steve and where I think the Achilles' heel of conspiracy theories lies: in order to pull something so complex off and cover it up, you have to push the data through a very narrow interpretation channel. And that interpretation channel has to take as granted some very unlikely and un-common-sense things, along with the notion that what we know about the workings of public officials is a complete lie. No matter how much data you have, you still have to force it into a convoluted sort of puzzle. Sheer probability and breadth of perspective tends to defeat this most of the time. In the real world, the convoluted version is very rarely the right one. The narrow version tends to ignore broader interpretations and realities of how information travels these days.

Sadly, the fact that 9/11 itself was such a bizzare and incompetently-handled event easily lends itself to these things.

If they had done a good job of covering it up, or if was they said is actually what really happened, there wouldn't be so much discussion about how it's all a lie.

In my opinion they tried to pull this complex thing off, and they didn't do a very good job.

Did you actually read they reports on the analysis of the WTC and the Pentagon? Did you read they replies about the inquiries regarding the inconsistent data and information?

A kid could've done a better job.

[CCIP]

I've looked into all sorts of things actually, there's even a "9/11 truth club" at my university where a lot of the conspiracy-oriented information is advocated. My own conclusion, from a politically-disinterested point of view, is that it was in part the result of gross incompetence but not wilful malice or desire for propaganda. Propaganda coups are much easier to manufacture than that, and they don't have to cost this much politically, econimically, and in terms of lives. But other than that, I'm not seeing anything here other than planes flying and buildings falling, and a lot of innocent people dead by terrorism. I think it's grossly inappropriate to try to diminish that. Bin Laden doesn't even have to enter the equation here.

As for Bin Laden, I'm also just as willing to agree that the US support for Afghan Mujahedeen against the Soviets is in no small part responsible for the rise of his likes. Fallout of the "maybe an SOB, but our SOB" doctrine that is part of the type of the gross incompetence and short-sightedness that led to so many problems the US faces today. So yep, while I see "the government" at fault, I'm just not seeing the smoke and mirrors.

And the bigger issue for me now, of course, is that the cashing-in on the Bin Laden killing is a wonderful way to yet again tout competence in this non-achievement, when in fact this whole war on terror and US' foreign policy are still a terrible debacle.

[Torplexed]

Did any one of the 'witnesses' see anybody plant even one of the hundreds of charges it would take to accomplish that destruction? That's a pretty big secret to keep right there. That's all I ask for - one single piece of actual evidence.

I agree.

Truckloads of demo charges and dozens of mysterious workers, going in and out of the Twin Towers, night after night. Security at the building doesn't catch them, Port Authority Police don't catch them, random eyewitnesses who stumble across the operation don't catch them, maintenance workers who stumble across wet paint and repaired walls and bits of strange wire don't catch them, security cameras don't catch them. Dogs brought in to sniff for bombs (a standard procedure after the 1993 attack) don't catch them.

As long as conspiracy theorists keep believing that the only explanation for any objection to their theories is blind faith in the government, then they will be unable and ill-equipped to discuss the actual problems with their theories. Nearly every conspiracy theory follows exactly the same pattern. It chips away at the prevailing opinion without regard to the comparative credibility of any other theory. One is supposed to believe that if the "official" story seems wrong, then maybe a conspiracy theory should be considered, no matter how absurd or ill-conceived it is.

Real investigations don't work that way. You can't say the patient has cancer because he doesn't appear to have tooth decay. Conspiracy theorists take that indirect approach because it's easier to erode something than to prove something else. The latter is what makes a real investigation. We reject the conspiracy theory not because we blindly believe the government's story, but because the conspiracy theories are often comically unsupportable according to the facts.

[MH]

Any body for theory that "Pearl Harbor" was a conspiracy....
Every incompetence there can be explained as purposefull cover up to bring USA to fight WW2 since American public wasn't so enthusiastic.
So would USA go to war if the raid was intercepted?

So tell me if anyone decided to force American public into war on terror why blowing up the building.
Smashing 2 planes would more than enough?
Would it justify going into Iraq or Afghanistan?

[Jimbuna]

Any body for theory that "Pearl Harbor" was a conspiracy....
Every incompetence there can be explained as purposefull cover up to bring USA to fight WW2 since American public wasn't so enthusiastic.
So would USA go to war if the raid was intercepted?



Once Japan started her invasion of American 'interests' (the Phillipines for example)...most definitely YES.

[Platapus]

\We reject the conspiracy theory not because we blindly believe the government's story, but because the conspiracy theories are often comically unsupportable according to the facts.


Also you will notice that many (most?) conspiracy theories "rely" on "evidence" that can't be examined.

The government is concealing something is not logical evidence. :nope:

Anyone see Conspiracy Theory with Mel Gibson? Crappy movie but Mel's character was one of his better roles and made the movie entertaining. He played that nutter very well.....he was acting right? :D

[Sailor Steve]

You can't say the patient has cancer because he doesn't appear to have tooth decay.
:rotfl2: :rock:

Of course you can! Tooth decay doesn't prove he doesn't have cancer! :stare:

Every incompetence there can be explained as purposefull cover up...
:yep:

When NASA managed to lose the original moon landing photos a whole new wave of conspiracy theorists started shouting. I replied "I'll always believe screw-up before I believe cover-up."

[joea]

Once Japan started her invasion of American 'interests' (the Phillipines for example)...most definitely YES.
Just lucky Hitler declared war on the US-FDR's main goal. :03:

Anyway-ironic that Pearl Harbor is brought up-the conspiracy there is just "Kept the commanders in Hawaii in the dark" variety-everyone by late 41 was expecting war and an attack on the Philippines as well as British and Dutch colinies was expected. BTW I wonder why MacArthur was let off for not being ready when news of Pearl Harbor came through. :hmmm:

What I want to bring up with connection to 9-11 is the mildest of the various conspiracy theories is "they (the Bush administration) knew about it but let it happen to get their projects going" or even "they hired through intermediaries some islamic terrorists to do the deed who thought they were striking a blow against the Great Satan".

No-the most popular theory is the most complex and ridiculous one. Demolition charges in the WTC-a plane that vanished or never existed (the Pentagon one-BTW there was a Chinese couple on that plane so if they were invented why didn't China say anything)? Other very unlikely assertions, missiles and holograms etc. :shifty: If I were to believe anything-I might believe the government created these crazy theories to cover up their own incompetence or possibly criminal negligence.

[Platapus]

No-the most popular theory is the most complex and ridiculous one. Demolition charges in the WTC-a plane that vanished or never existed (the Pentagon one-BTW there was a Chinese couple on that plane so if they were invented why didn't China say anything)? Other very unlikely assertions, missiles and holograms etc. :shifty: If I were to believe anything-I might believe the government created these crazy theories to cover up their own incompetence or possibly criminal negligence.


A CHINESE couple? Hmmm That opens up other theories. You know how them (looking right and left) Chinese are. :03:

Maybe it was not AQ after all, but them (looking left and right) crafty Chinese guys. :yep:

[MH]

A CHINESE couple? Hmmm That opens up other theories. You know how them (looking right and left) Chinese are. :03:

Maybe it was not AQ after all, but them (looking left and right) crafty Chinese guys. :yep:
Chinnise covertly sponsor AQ to make USA bankrupt through regional wars.
Its very obvious to me.
They will own USA soon.

[joea]

Chinnise covertly sponsor AQ to make USA bankrupt through regional wars.
Its very obvious to me.
They will own USA soon.
:yeah:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

You're all saying "The evidence is questionable" about the conspiracy theory.

But you're all forgetting that the evidence for the non-conspiracy version is also questionable.

Does anybody here have any hard physical evidence that proves the original story?

So, like I said, what is truth? All we have is theories.

[MH]

You're all saying "The evidence is questionable" about the conspiracy theory.

But you're all forgetting that the evidence for the non-conspiracy version is also questionable.

Does anybody here have any hard physical evidence that proves the original story?

So, like I said, what is truth? All we have is theories.

Whats so questionable about the fact that few terrorist could be smart enough to crash airplanes into WTC and pentagon.
With American security measures and some intelligence failures at the time it was possible and they exploited the weakness.
All those conspiracy theories come from underestimating one side and overestimating the other it seems.

Mighty USA allowed itself to be whooped like that.
It must be a trick.
Could some Muslim nut with a beard really pull it off and do such unthinkable thing?.
If they simply blew themselves up in the air it would be acceptable.
We are sort of used to that but flying plane into WTC oh.. come on...
Maybe next time it will be a small nuclear device but who would do such a crazy thing besides your own evil allmighty government.:doh:
Not some crazy fanatic muslims....

BW

The physical evidence was demolished.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Well Im letting go of this topic. I might start getting enemies around here and people throwing Molotov cocktails in my house cos I have a different opinion.

And that's certainly not what Im looking for.

What matter is, that the guy LIED! He said today was the end of the world, and I freed my schedule in order to not miss any of the action, and now it's already 6:40pm and nothing happened.

Im depressed.

[tonschk]

I have over 5gb of documents and videos about how the WTC was controlled demolition and the involvements of US government with both WTC AND Bin Laden, things you wouldn't believe.

The word "Terrorism" in every newspaper have a purpose. You gotta see thru it.

Yes I agree with you , the World Trade Center was controlled demolished with explosives , nobody knows about World Trade Center building Seven which also was controlled imploded the same day by the US government at 5:20 pm , check out the link below

http://www.ae911truth.org/ (http://www.ae911truth.org/)

http://rememberbuilding7.org/ (http://rememberbuilding7.org/)

[FIREWALL]

Like Osama... Let this thread which, strated out good, DIE :dead::dead::dead:

[tonschk]

You're all saying "The evidence is questionable" about the conspiracy theory.

But you're all forgetting that the evidence for the non-conspiracy version is also questionable.

Does anybody here have any hard physical evidence that proves the original story?

So, like I said, what is truth? All we have is theories.

More than 1500 Architects and Engineers are questioning the george bush Official theory about what happened on 9/11/2001

http://www.ae911truth.org/ (http://www.ae911truth.org/)

[yubba]

http://i.imgur.com/CL9Gq.jpg

[Platapus]

More than 1500 Architects and Engineers are questioning the george bush Official theory about what happened on 9/11/2001

http://www.ae911truth.org/ (http://www.ae911truth.org/)

If you read some of the comments of the people signing the petition, not all of them think there was a conspiracy. Some of them are interested in why the nation was not better prepared for the attack. Not exactly conspiracy material.

I am not going to take the time to read all 1500 (or what ever the total is) but at least a few do not mention any conspiracy.

[CCIP]

But hey, "the truth" must be one thing, and on the extreme side of either spectrum. Otherwise it's boring and doesn't let people wave their ultrainformed egos around.

[tonschk]

The Facts Speak For Themselves

http://911truthnews.com/the-facts-speak-for-themselves/ (http://911truthnews.com/the-facts-speak-for-themselves/)

[CCIP]

The Facts Speak For Themselves

http://911truthnews.com/the-facts-speak-for-themselves/ (http://911truthnews.com/the-facts-speak-for-themselves/)

Then why does the article begin with a picture of a guy speaking them? :DL

Facts don't speak. Facts are only interpreted, and there is a very clear and forceful interpretation given to them in that article. Weasely language there.

[Platapus]

Then why does the article begin with a picture of a guy speaking them? :DL

Facts don't speak. Facts are only interpreted, and there is a very clear and forceful interpretation given to them in that article. Weasely language there.

I just wasted my time reading these 50 "facts". None of them seem to indicate that the US government was involved in the planning or execution of the 911 attacks. Most of these facts dealt with what happened after the attacks

Don't waste your time like I just did. :nope:

[tonschk]

http://rememberbuilding7.org/ (http://rememberbuilding7.org/)

Building 7 was a 47-story skyscraper and was part of the World Trade Center complex. Built in 1984, it would have been the tallest high-rise in 33 states in the United States. It imploded at 5:20 pm on September 11, 2001. It was not hit by an airplane and suffered minimal damage compared to other buildings much closer to the Twin Towers.
7 Facts about Building 7

1) If fire caused Building 7 to collapse, it would be the first ever fire-induced collapse of a steel-frame high-rise.
2) Building 7---8217;s collapse was not mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report.
3) According to a Zogby poll in 2006, 43% of Americans did not know about Building 7.
4) It took the federal government seven years to conduct an investigation and issue a report for Building 7.
5) 1,500+architects and engineers (http://ae911truth.org) have signed a petition calling for a new investigation that would include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives for the collapse of Building 7.
6) Numerous witnesses say the possibility of demolishing Building 7 was widely discussed by emergency personnel at the scene and advocated by the building---8217;s owner.
7) Building 7 housed several intelligence and law enforcement agencies, and the NYC Office of Emergency Management---8217;s Emergency Operations Center, more commonly known as ---8220;Giuliani---8217;s Bunker---8221;.

[Sailor Steve]

So, if the point of the destruction of the Trade Center was to fake a terrorist attack and get us to go into Iraq, what exactly was the point of destroying a building nobody knew about? It didn't make us more angry, because we didn't know about it. In fact it seems to have served no purpose at all except to let those you who are smarter than the rest of us have more 'evidence' of the conspiracy. Pretty stupid of them.

I will reiterate my question: How did American agents manage to plant all those explosives with no one noticing?

This is beginning to look more and more like the Kennedy conspiracy. Sure, it could be true, but all of the "facts" presented so far show exactly nothing. Let's see some actual proof, please.

[Sailor Steve]

You're all saying "The evidence is questionable" about the conspiracy theory.

But you're all forgetting that the evidence for the non-conspiracy version is also questionable.

Does anybody here have any hard physical evidence that proves the original story?

So, like I said, what is truth? All we have is theories.
Planes crashed into the towers. The towers fell down. Those are facts. That's the evidence for the "non-conspiracy" version. Was the US government behind it? You're perfectly welcome to think so, and no, no one is going to throw bombs at your house.

Your "two theories" fun is about the same as when the atheist says "You can't prove there's a God", and the believer retorts with "You can't prove there isn't!" The two are not the same. When you claim something beyond the obvious the burden of proof is on you.

[Tribesman]

I might start getting enemies around here and people throwing Molotov cocktails in my house cos I have a different opinion.

Its a molotov conspiracy I tell ya, your house isn't real it is a lie which was made up by journalists and politicians working for bilderberg inc. step through the door and move into the real world, get away from the house its a trap.

More than 1500 Architects and Engineers
So that would be say perhaps just 0.0001% of the architects and engineers currently eating a boiled egg for breakfast in central London....pretty impressive figure you have there :doh:

[tonschk]

World Trade Center Tower 7 (47 Stories Tall) blasted into a pile of rubble in just Seven SECONDS :hmmm:


if the controlled demolition of building seven is fishy/suspicious , also the destruction of the WTC twin towers become suspicious


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=972ETepp4GI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=972ETepp4GI&feature=related)


Danny Jovenko controlled demolition expert, show concern about the obvious controlled demolition of WTC building seven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877gr6xtQIc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877gr6xtQIc)

[tonschk]

Please Help Put This Ad On Air - Go to BuildingWhat.org

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHIj9wzbYGQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHIj9wzbYGQ)

[CCIP]

Alright, now you're just spamming links :/


if the controlled demolition of building seven is fishy/suspicious , also the destruction of the WTC twin towers become suspicious



And there we have exactly the logical fallacy I was talking about. With full acknowledgment that any version of what happened on Sept 11th is inherently unlikely, you can't build a broader theory of all events of the day based on one very unlikely and unascertained (but rather just 'suspicious') version of one peripheral event.

[tonschk]

I will reiterate my question: How did American agents manage to plant all those explosives with no one noticing?

.

9/11 World Trade Center Security Courtesy of Marvin Bush ,


Marvin P. Bush, the president---8217;s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911security.html (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911security.html)


Marvin Bush and the Planting of Explosives

http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_09.htm (http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_09.htm)


Bush Family Exposed; Marvin, George Jr. & Sr. Put Bin Laden & Oil Interests 1st


http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4023723700225520669 (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4023723700225520669)#


Marvin Bush and the World Trade Center Twin Towers left unmonitered. (http://digg.com/story/r/Marvin_Bush_and_the_Twin_Towers_left_unmonitered_U h_oh)

youtube.com (http://digg.com/search?q=site:youtube.com) ---8212; Time for a rewind. Did you know that the towers where shut down a week before 9/11? Did you know all the cameras and monitoring where stopped while Bush's brothers "maintenance" workers fixed "cables". Then they removed the bomb sniffing dogs just before 9/11

[Platapus]

(looking at the scale)

I think he has had enough to eat for a while.

As CCIP posted, all he is doing is burping up links.

[Mush Martin]

Sounds like both sides in this thread are smothering objectivity with propaganda.

I believe David Ray Griffin Presents enough info to warrant an Independent
investigation, to make up for the clearly inadequate 911Report.
I do not purport to know the result of such an investigation in advance,
I just feel that if it were on my vote, the indications are that a new investigation is warranted.
M

[tonschk]

Is this building collapsing or EXPLODING ?

Check out the full video here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0ZBSDBZCY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0ZBSDBZCY)

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z58/tonschk/collapse_vlg.jpg

[Tribesman]

As CCIP posted, all he is doing is burping up links.
And he just burped up a link by someone who by their comments is absolutley dumb as could possibly be, seriously FFS "evidence" should at least be based on an arguement that has some relation to reality, that last piece is just laughable, only a complete muppet could make such silly claims as are on that link

[tonschk]

http://www.csi911.info/CSI911.html

POINT #1:
"The North Tower was 1,368 ft tall.
Free fall time to the ground with no resistance (drag) is approximately 9.25 seconds."
</B>http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Height / Distance = the N.Y. Port Authority data.
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Time = Square root of (Distance, divided by 16 ).

The North Tower, all 110 floors, "destroyed" in approximately 10 Seconds.
This is approximately 0.09 Sec. Per floor.
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif </B>Not my numbers, this is from CNN Video - Fox Video -
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Even in the 9/11 Commission Report.

POINT #2:
There were "... no fires in the core. "
Bill Manning Editor (http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/article_display.html?id=131225) in chief of Fire Engineering Magazine. http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif F.D.N.Y. Transcripts

The path of greatest resistance would be straight down.
The Core of the Tower was "A Building Within the Building"
47 Steel Columns 12 columns 54" x 22" plus 35 columns 24" x 18"
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Aprox. dimensions from Bed Rock to 66th fl. Columns 'taper' as they rise higher.

"...over designed to resist hurricane force winds and downward pressure".
</B>They all fell away, striped clean of their sprayed-on asbestos fire proofing,
each column broken apart neatly at its joints, not bent, not melted, not heated. </B>

[Torplexed]

Oh lookie! Somebody is spitting out their coveted collection of 9/11 spam.

That's supposed to make us all drop our jaws and say "OMG it was a conspiracy!":rotfl2:

[HunterICX]

That's supposed to make us all drop our jaws and say "OMG it was a conspiracy!":rotfl2:

I guess so....I always find it fun to seem them utterly fail without any input by themselves as they just copy and paste the nonesense they glanced over someplace else and paste it here and move on.

:roll: Conspiracy..it's as much of an conspiracy as it is that actually someone else drank my coffee......*looks in cup* SONOFA.....!!!

HunterICX

[MH]

Assuming what you say is true we should go to basics.

I need a motive for destroying B7 so long after WTC collapse.
Who was so stupid to plan this in such a complicated way and demolished B7 in front of cameras.
Why would he want to do such a dumb thing.
Why demolish WTC at all?

Half of what happen in 9/11 would achieve the objective with American public so why the risks?

Someone should investigate the stupidity and over complicity of this government cover up and fire the sucker.

[tonschk]

Assuming what you say is true we should go to basics.

I need a motive for destroying B7 so long after WTC collapse.
Who was so stupid to plan this in such a complicated way and demolished B7 in front of cameras.
Why would he want to do such a dumb thing.
Why demolish WTC at all?

Half of what happen in 9/11 would achieve the objective with American public so why the risks?

Someone should investigate the stupidity and over complicity of this government cover up and fire the sucker.


Unfortunately , not everything ran smoothly for the controlled demolition team, probably the plan was to controlled detonated the WTC building seven soon after the disintegration of the WTC North tower to cover-up the demolition of building seven with the colossal clous of pulverised dust of the previous controlled demolition, the explosions were going off inside the WTC building seven since about 9 am, some detonators (Due to the previous explosions) inside the WTC building seven become a dud and the controlled demolition team have no way out other than lit some fires inside WTC Building seven , hopefully the naive people will swallow the lie of a fire induced collapse for the first time in history in a Steel reinforce Frame building

Eyewitness explosions inside WTC building seven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DuSeuxjiJQ&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DuSeuxjiJQ&feature=fvst)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaKHq2dfCI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaKHq2dfCI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LO5V2CJpzI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LO5V2CJpzI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKtNHPeKxg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKtNHPeKxg)

[MH]

Unfortunately , not everything was ran smoothly for the controlled demolition team, probably the plan was to controlled detonated the WTC building seven soon after the disintegration of the WTC North tower to cover-up the demolition of building seven with he colossal clous of pulverised dust of the previous controlled demolition, the explosions were going off inside the WTC building seven since about 9 am, the detonators indside the WTC building seven become a dud and the controlled demolition team have no way out other than lit some fires inside WTC Building seven , hopefully the naive people will swallow the lie of a fire induced collapse for the first time in history in a Steel reinforce Frame building

Why such a complicated plan?
Pentagon would do the job.
Exploding the planes in the air would do the job .....what is that insurance company scam?

[August]

motive

You nail it. These conspiracy nuts are always long on technical falderal but woefully short on motive.

[Mush Martin]

You nail it. These conspiracy nuts are always long on technical falderal but woefully short on motive.


3billion in SEC securities fraud investigation Vapourized.

More than that in Missing defence spending Under investigation.

Both investigations ended with the collapse of building seven,

Heck Im not on either side and motive is pretty easy to see.

but theres a whole lot of rhetoric and bunk flying in both directions.

so I am just withdrawing from this ever less objective thread.

Regards to all.
M.

[Dowly]

[/URL]

POINT #1:
"The North Tower was 1,368 ft tall.
Free fall time to the ground with no resistance (drag) is approximately 9.25 seconds."
</B>http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Height / Distance = the N.Y. Port Authority data.
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Time = Square root of (Distance, divided by 16 ).

The North Tower, all 110 floors, "destroyed" in approximately 10 Seconds.
This is approximately 0.09 Sec. Per floor.
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif </B>Not my numbers, this is from CNN Video - Fox Video -
http://www.csi911.info/dot_clear.gif Even in the 9/11 Commission Report.



Guess no one was arsed to actually check what the conspiracy theories claim. :doh:

South Tower: ~15 seconds
North Tower: ~22 seconds

9/11 Debunked: World Trade Center - No Free-Fall speed
http://youtu.be/qLShZOvxVe4 (http://www.csi911.info/CSI911.html)

9/11 Debunked: WTC 7's Collapse Explained
[url]http://youtu.be/_kSq663m0G8

[nikimcbee]

Guess no one was arsed to actually check what the conspiracy theories claim. :doh:

South Tower: ~15 seconds
North Tower: ~22 seconds

9/11 Debunked: World Trade Center - No Free-Fall speed
http://youtu.be/qLShZOvxVe4

9/11 Debunked: WTC 7's Collapse Explained
http://youtu.be/_kSq663m0G8

Rosie o'donnell said it, it must be true:haha:.

[tonschk]

3billion in SEC securities fraud investigation Vapourized.

More than that in Missing defence spending Under investigation.

Both investigations ended with the collapse of building seven,

Heck Im not on either side and motive is pretty easy to see.

.

:up:

[MH]

:up:


Why you so happy?
It sort of contradicts the whole conspiracy theory then.
The attack really happen but Israelis knew about it beforehand?

[tonschk]

Why you so happy?
It sort of contradicts the whole conspiracy theory then.
The attack really happen but Israelis knew about it beforehand?

I am not happy, the real perpetrators (elements within the US government) must go to jail, apparently the israeli secret service MOSSAD was also involved


MOSSAD INVOLVEMENT In The 9 11 WTC ATTACKS 1 of 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5f4fbknkD4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5f4fbknkD4)

[Penguin]

I'd like to pick up the motive ball and ask about the one of the U.S. government. I certainly don't trust any government more far than I could throw its members, but I have failed to hear an explanation about the government role:
- the 3 billion insurance money mentioned before are clearly peanuts for a government, we saw this bitterly proven at the bailout madness.
- a reason to go to war would have been easier to make
- to unite the public against a common enemy would need much less effort; the less people involved, the better

If the U.S. government planned or at least knew about the attacks: Why did they used it not as a great propaganda coup, to present themselves in a good light, let W. hold a powerfully wrtitten speech and show that they clearly handle the situation, rather than looking incompetent and surprised. Or does this show the brilliance of the plan?
They could used forged evidence to clearly point at the enemy, instead of going the hard way and following several leads :"Oh, look, we found Osama's business card in one of the planes" ;)

And a government which was able to clandestinely plan and carry out the biggest attack on U.S. soil is later unable to plant one tiny fake WMD in Iraq to proof its claims?
It came out that Rumsfeld and the others lied about the WMD issue, but nobody of the people involved in 9/11 talked or presented evidence of a conspiracy which would have included significantly more people who were informed than the Iraq claims?

[August]

3billion in SEC securities fraud investigation Vapourized.

More than that in Missing defence spending Under investigation.

Both investigations ended with the collapse of building seven,

Smoke and mirrors. They're all lies invented by the conspiracy nuts. If you follow their quotes and citations they lead you nowhere.

But besides that.

No government with the power to covertly destroy buildings and murder thousands of their own people would need to go to such extreme and risky measures to achieve those objectives.

[MH]

I am not happy, the real perpetrators (elements within the US government) must go to jail, apparently the israeli secret service MOSSAD was also involved

.....and they dealt with airline shares to make few bucks...warned Israeli workers in WTC leaving trace.
That what this theory is based on.
This perfect conspiracy theory is full of #$%#$% hezbollah would do it better.

[Torplexed]

I am not happy, the real perpetrators (elements within the US government) must go to jail, apparently the israeli secret service MOSSAD was also involved


MOSSAD INVOLVEMENT In The 9 11 WTC ATTACKS 1 of 2

Oh yeah. That old tired argument of anti-Semites everywhere. Dah Joos musta dunn it! :zzz:

[August]

Why you so happy?
It sort of contradicts the whole conspiracy theory then.
The attack really happen but Israelis knew about it beforehand?

His happiness indicates he's the other kind of conspiracy theorist.

The first kind are the believers. People whose hate of the US Government is so strong they'd believe anything negative. The other kind are those who don't believe in much at all but do it just to goad and irritate.

[Torplexed]

It came out that Rumsfeld and the others lied about the WMD issue, but nobody of the people involved in 9/11 talked or presented evidence of a conspiracy which would have included significantly more people who were informed than the Iraq claims?


The question as to who, specifically carried out the machinations of the events of 9/11/01 is quite relevant. But, the Truther crowd will answer that they have no way of knowing since this is a highly guarded secret and that perhaps many of those doing the grunt jobs either did not realize they were involved or they were killed shortly after they completed their part.

A person who would not know they had a part would be someone who was told to install a black box of some sort next to columns of the towers months or weeks in advance which, unbeknownst to that person , contained explosives. Yes, I see the holes in that. The person may realize after the event that they had unwittingly played a part, the people supervising this would have to know etc.

The Truther crowd likes to claim that very few people would have to know the whole plot and that is correct, but many people would have to know enough to understand they played a part in a large conspiracy. The people who would fit this category, according to the many plots and sub-plots the Truthers adhere to: (a partial list)

-Members of the US administration such as but not limited to;
GWB, Ashcroft, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice plus their Illuminati/ Zionist/ NWO masters.

-NORAD officials who ordered a 'stand-down' or transmitted such orders upon being told to by higher up political masters

-ATC officials who delayed notifying NORAD of the hijackings

-The members of GWB's Secret Service protection detail who knew he was not in danger in the school and thus did not move him to Airforce 1 immediately

-The crew who installed the thermite and explosives in WTC 1,2 & 7,( or the thermobaric weapons, or the mini-nukes)

-The pilots who remotely commandeered the planes

-The crew who programmed and sent the missile to hit the Pentagon

-The staff of the secret base to which Flight 77 was taken(and possibly the other three planes as well) where the aircraft and the persons on board were disposed of.

-The personnel who created the false phone calls from the planes

-The planners of all of the above.

The idea that you get this complex and diverse group of people to remain silent for that past decade is just as ridiculous as the conspiracy theory that the virtual army of technicians, managers and ground controllers involving in faking the Apollo landings could keep their peace for forty years. :har::har:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Here's some curious stuff.

US government claims that one plane crashed into Pentagon.

Where's the plane? There's no plane, no sign of any parts of a plane in the crash site.

Any video footage of the plane crashing? US government collected all security cameras from all the buildings nearby, and negate to release the footage till this day. Any video leaked showing an airplane crashing into the pentagon? No, not a single one. Why? Cos it was a missile.

They were asked "If it was an airplane, where's the rubble?"

They replied "It melted down cos of the heat from the airplane fuel burning".

Tons and tons of steel engine melted down? The whole thing melted down to leave absolutely no trace? I think they never saw a plane crash before.

Then they covered the whole area of the plane crash with huge amounts of sand in less then 24 hours, to cover up any evidence.

They have "We're hiding something" written all over their foreheads.

Oh, btw, they claimed to have found a terrorist passport in the middle of the rubble. Tons of steel melt, but a passport stays intact? haha :up:

[August]

Here's some curious stuff.

I know people who were in the building that day. There was indeed wreckage. There is indeed video. It was indeed a civilian airliner that crashed into it.

[tater]

They found plane parts in the Pentagon. Anyone who believes 9-11 conspiracies is an idiot. Or crazy. Pick one.

Actually, i think it's both. Believing any conspiracy is a mental illness, IMO. All such people, regardless of the particular conspiracy act exactly the same way (JFK, faked moon landing, etc, ad nauseum). Their reaction to contrary evidence is identical. As such, while I think they are indeed invariably less intelligent, the belief itself is a demonstration of mental illness into the bargain (and I do mean frank, clinical mental illness).

[MH]

Here's some curious stuff.

US government claims that one plane crashed into Pentagon.

Where's the plane? There's no plane, no sign of any parts of a plane in the crash site.

Any video footage of the plane crashing? US government collected all security cameras from all the buildings nearby, and negate to release the footage till this day. Any video leaked showing an airplane crashing into the pentagon? No, not a single one. Why? Cos it was a missile.

They were asked "If it was an airplane, where's the rubble?"

They replied "It melted down cos of the heat from the airplane fuel burning".

Tons and tons of steel engine melted down? The whole thing melted down to leave absolutely no trace? I think they never saw a plane crash before.

Then they covered the whole area of the plane crash with huge amounts of sand in less then 24 hours, to cover up any evidence.

They have "We're hiding something" written all over their foreheads.

Oh, btw, they claimed to have found a terrorist passport in the middle of the rubble. Tons of steel melt, but a passport stays intact? haha :up:

Try to catch fast moving object on slow F/S camera.
To the camera the plane is indeed a missile lol.

[Oberon]

Here's some curious stuff.

US government claims that one plane crashed into Pentagon.

Where's the plane? There's no plane, no sign of any parts of a plane in the crash site.


Here's a plane:

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/ats/pentagon757/planeparts-1.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/ats/pentagon757/rim1.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/ats/pentagon757/757-americanlogo.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/ats/pentagon757/generator.jpg

Size of 757 matches the initial size of hole in the building - somewhere between 13 and 16 feet (757 is 13 feet wide/high)
Rims found in building match those of a 757
Small turbine engine outside is an APU
Same engine has been clearly stated to not match a Global Hawk engine
Blue seats from 757 laying on ground in photos
Part of "American" fuselage logo visible in more than 1 photo
Engine parts photographed inside match a Rolls-Royce RB211
Structural components photographed in wreckage match Boeing paint primer schemes
Large diesel generator in front of building hit by a large heavy object
Large diesel engine outside is spun towards the building - could not be result of bomb blast or missile explosion
Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner
Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner hit the Pentagon
60+ bodies, matching the passenger list and flight crew roster identified and returned to families from Pentagon wreckage



http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

[Mush Martin]

Smoke and mirrors. They're all lies invented by the conspiracy nuts. If you follow their quotes and citations they lead you nowhere.

But besides that.

No government with the power to covertly destroy buildings and murder thousands of their own people would need to go to such extreme and risky measures to achieve those objectives.

:rotfl2:Nice!

[tater]

I'll go farther. Anyone believing is an idiot with a mental illness, and anyone even entertaining the notion is at the very least an idiot (if they switch to belief, they're ill).

Being unintelligent is pretty much required to look past the evidence, and belief requires either stunning stupidity, mental illness, or some combination.

[nikimcbee]

I'll go farther. Anyone believing is an idiot with a mental illness, and anyone even entertaining the notion is at the very least an idiot (if they switch to belief, they're ill).

Being unintelligent is pretty much required to look past the evidence, and belief requires either stunning stupidity, mental illness, or some combination.

How dare you insult rosie o'donnell:har:.

[Torplexed]

If the conspirators were perfectly willing to murder the plane's passengers anyway, why not just use Flight 77 to crash into the Pentagon in the first place?

Why go to all of the trouble of covering up a missile strike, blowing up the plane elsewhere, convincing dozens of eyewitnesses that they'd seen a jetliner flying low over the nearby freeway and into the Pentagon when they didn't, faking authentic sounding cell phone calls to victims relatives, and planting authentic charred and damaged Boeing 757 parts and American Airlines seats and uniforms, as well as human body parts, terrorist passports and other remains at the scene before the press, firefighters, and coroner could've arrived? Also remember that all the major news networks have correspondents whose offices are located in the Pentagon and they could have witnessed this evidence planting going on before the "strike" and blown the whole thing.

As always conspiracy theorists can't see the gaping holes in their own theories. I agree with tater. Mental illness.

[Dowly]

Here, check this channel out. Tons and tons of conspiracy theories debunked right there:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#g/u

[Sailor Steve]

@ Tonschk: Your Marvin Bush links are interesting, but none of them addresses my question of how nobody managed to notice all those charges being planted.

And with all of your parrotting of "facts" you haven't bothered to speak for yourself in all this. You completely ignored my question: If the purpose of the "Bush regime", as you like to call it, was to garner support for an attack on Iraq, what possible purpose would the destruction of Building 7 have, other than to let people see how stupid their plan was? It added nothing to the outrage over the twin towers. For that matter, what purpose would the destruction of the twin towers themselves have? There was more than enough outrage over the planes themselves.

You don't seem to want to discuss all this, just spout hatred for George Bush. Which brings us full circle to the main problem the Bush-haters have always had. Either he was an evil genius of unprecedented magnitude or he was a bumbling buffoon. It's kind of hard to have it both ways, but you guys seem to try so hard anyway.

to all of the trouble of covering up a missile strike, blowing up the plane elsewhere, convincing dozens of eyewitnesses that they'd seen a jetliner flying low over the nearby freeway and into the Pentagon when they didn't, faking authentic sounding cell phone calls to victims relatives, and planting authentic charred and damaged Boeing 757 parts and American Airlines seats and uniforms, as well as human body parts, terrorist passports and other remains at the scene before the press, firefighters, and coroner could've arrived? Also remember that all the major news networks have correspondents whose offices are located in the Pentagon and they could have witnessed this evidence planting going on before the "strike" and blown the whole thing.
None of this matters. What matters is that (pick your theory) is the truth and you're buying into the evil government's evil scheme. They present "facts" that go nowhere and logic that isn't, and expect you to believe it because it has to be true. Political fanaticism is no different than religious fanaticism.

For myself, I find a lot of the evidence interesting, but none of it truly compelling. Like just about anything else, it could be true, but nothing I've seen so far tells me I should believe, much less that I must believe. All of this leads me to think that you who do believe do so because you want to, not because any of it is truly convincing.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I'll go farther. Anyone believing is an idiot with a mental illness, and anyone even entertaining the notion is at the very least an idiot (if they switch to belief, they're ill).

Being unintelligent is pretty much required to look past the evidence, and belief requires either stunning stupidity, mental illness, or some combination.


I'd say exactly the same about religion.

[August]

I'd say exactly the same about religion.

So what makes you so willing to believe one but not the other?

[Torplexed]

All of this leads me to think that you who do believe do so because you want to, not because any of it is truly convincing.

The X-files move tagline. I blame Agents Mudler and Scully for popularizing most of this conspiracy crap myself.

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Plunger-detonator.jpg

[Penguin]

I am not happy, the real perpetrators (elements within the US government) must go to jail, apparently the israeli secret service MOSSAD was also involved

MOSSAD INVOLVEMENT In The 9 11 WTC ATTACKS 1 of 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5f4fbknkD4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5f4fbknkD4)

I watched the video and now I am convinced:

It is obvious that the U.S. with its tiny agancies would never be able to carry out this attack on their own - so they needed the Mossad to help out.
When you want to document the attack, the best way to do so is to use 3 people who park a van in the open and film from there rather than using an apartment in a surrounding building. Too bad that they didn't calculate the binocular lady in...

And the US did arrest more than 60 Israelis after 9/11 (the timeframe is not revealed) on Patriot act or visa charges: Wow, imagine the amazing dialogue of the immigration agency: "Sir, we found an Israeli citizen with an expired visa!" - "Send him to Gitmo, he clearly is involved in the 9/11 attacks!" :D

But then this stupid, stupid Mossad allowed their agents to go into an Israeli talk show and let them confess all their involvement, which consists of: "We are coming from a country which experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." Wow, it's a conspiracy - they filmed it, like 1000's of other people who were there and documented the events, but I think those came from other intelligence agencies.
Joking is a healthy method to cope with shocking events. I have been in life-threatening sits and cracked jokes afterwards. But I am just in the german secret service. Ouch - I shouldn't write this! Too late, now I blew my cover... :o

Sorry, didn't watch part 2 of it, I have to digest the shocking and convincing revelations that the first part had shown me. I bet we'll find proof there that the Mossad warned all the Juice in the buildings before!

[MH]

The video
Many Israelis look middle eastern so its not so odd that many got arrested in the post 9/11 sweeps.
Israelis travel to USA to make some money and sightseeing after 3 or more years of army service.
Probably some had some mentioned military background while many not so secretive jobs that can be included in the description.
Rest is plain crap i mean all is.

[nikimcbee]

Personally, I blame the world-wide zionist conspiracy, bushcheneypalinhalliburtonrumsfeld axis of evil, and care bears.

[Catfish]

Personally, I blame the world-wide zionist conspiracy, bushcheneypalinhalliburtonrumsfeld axis of evil, and care bears.

There is not one in this nice word collection who did not lie, as has been proven :hmmm:

So there is no connection between US arms industry, oil industry or anything with politics, in the US ?
Ah thanks, I can sleep much calmer now.

Democracy is the illusion that you and me have the double influence on politics, than Mr. Rumsfeld. But any cloudy "terrorist threat" is a good excuse to enact the most undemocratic laws.

[MH]

There is not one in this nice word collection who did not lie, as has been proven :hmmm:

So there is no connection between US arms industry, oil industry or anything with politics, in the US ?
Ah thanks, I can sleep much calmer now.

Democracy is the illusion that you and me have the double influence on politics, than Mr. Rumsfeld. But any cloudy "terrorist threat" is a good excuse to enact the most undemocratic laws.

Enjoy what you got or move to North Korea.:yep:

Interesting to know what terror you may have experienced or what rights you feel have been personally taken from you.
Someone is spaying on your Facebook page?

[Tribesman]

I watched the video and now I am convinced:
Its even better if you look at a few more on that channel, its got reptilians, freemasons, the illuminati, hidden nazis, hidden jews, new world order old world order off world order, real messiahs, false messiahs, contrails.......in fact if you look at the sources of the "evidence" these clever people are posting you can have a really good laugh

[Sailor Steve]

So there is no connection between US arms industry, oil industry or anything with politics, in the US ?
Ah thanks, I can sleep much calmer now.
There's nobody here (okay, maybe one or two) who says that is true. There are all kinds of connections and shenanigans going on. Like most governments, the US government is guilty as all get-out.

The whole 9/11 conspiracy thing may be true, as may be the moon-landing and Kennedy assasination theories. All we're saying is that these loons have yet to show one single piece of real evidence that would make us believe it.

Believe it's possible? Sure. Anything is possible, if unlikely. Believe it's true? I just became an honorary Missourian. SHOW ME.

[Growler]

Simpler truth: if the conspiracy advocates are right, then what? What's the payoff? Where's the conclusion? A New World Order? Please - this is the same government that couldn't fake a birth certificate, remember?

None of these "theories" concludes with anything. And like any investigation, they're finding what they're looking hard enough for. These folks are of the same ilk that find the face of the devil in smoke clouds and Jesus on a grilled cheese sammich.

Modern day, woefully misguided Don Quixotes lacking even that poor soul's nobility.

[tater]

I'd say exactly the same about religion.

Yeah, the belief in conspiracy has the hallmarks of "faith" for sure. Once you invest yourself in pure "belief" you cannot allow any contrary evidence at all. Change the subject, invent "nano-thermite," etc. Whatever it takes.

[tater]

I remember getting in an argument with some idiot truther (yeah, I know, adding "idiot" is redundant, but it's sorta like "dirty hippie" you can't say one without the other). He claimed that W did it to invade Iraq, etc. I asked why, with his thousands of conspirators (a bare minimum to place charges, lol) he didn't have them plant IRAQI passports... he of course changed the subject. I then asked why after invading Iraq, an administration willing to murder thousands so as to not implicate the country they wanted to invade (huh? what?) didn't send ONE guy into iraq with weaponized bio-weapons, and some disks/files forged as Iraqi WMD proof. Again, Occam's razor... and a change of subject.

Bad guys willing to conspire to murder innocents, then unwilling to... forge papers to implicate others they want to implicate, or defuse all qualms about the war (plant WMD, Profit!).

That won't convince them, because, as I said, they are idiots and/or mentally ill.

[Sailor Steve]

Simpler truth: if the conspiracy advocates are right, then what? What's the payoff? Where's the conclusion? A New World Order? Please - this is the same government that couldn't fake a birth certificate, remember?
I'm going to get personal here and quote the sig:
george bush dictatorship regime
If that's true, then why isn't Dubya still in charge? Less-than-perfect? Sure. Misguided? Possibly. Not-too-bright? It's been argued. But a dictator? If that were true he'd still be running things, and he's not, so calling him a dictator is a blatant lie, and I don't think it should be allowed here. Just my opinion, of course.

...it's sorta like "dirty hippie" you can't say one without the other.
You take that back! :stare: I'll have you know I've been a very clean hippie for decades, maybe since before you were born! :O: :D

[CCIP]

Ah yes, Occam's razor is one heck of a weapon against conspiracies. I was also kind of hinting at that, and honestly no theory I've seen even remotely passes that test. Terrorists flying planes flying into buildings that later fall, on the other hand, does pass plausibly.

Also I find it amusing how most of the "anti-conspiracists" here are self-confessed liberals or libertarians, far from flag-waving Bush and/or government lovers :D

[August]

I'd like to know who invents and perpetuates these conspiracy theories.
Are they all just the product of some pathetic loonies living in their moms basement, or could at least some of them be a form of covert warfare designed to vilify a nations reputation?

[Torplexed]

I'd like to know who invents and perpetuates these conspiracy theories.
Are they all just the product of some pathetic loonies living in their moms basement, or could at least some of them be a form of covert warfare designed to vilify a nations reputation?

From my dealings with Apollo hoax believers, I suspect it is people who are suffering from a combination of paranoia and, perhaps more importantly, feelings of inadequacy. They create a delusional fantasy in which they are the heroes. Their ability to decipher the subtle clues and uncover the hoax or conspiracy is seen as a demonstration of their intellectual superiority. They revel in the thought that they're in on some exclusive knowledge the rest of us don't get. To the conspiracy theorists the more complex, convoluted or even outright ridiculous the theory, the smarter they feel for having figured it all out. To the rest of us the theory just doesn't make any sense.

Basically like you said. Pathetic. :D

[CCIP]

Well, I think some of them do come out of legitimate academic concerns, and I think at any point it's fair to ask a question. That's how you get to the bottom of things - you exhaust all possible questions and possibilities. The real problem is that it gets picked up by people who have very little interest in respecting any sort of reasonable inquiry or debate, and all they want to do instead is wave a banner. Banners are a great way to attract attention, whether or not the rhetoric behind them actually adds up to anything.

[Dowly]

I'd like to know who invents and perpetuates these conspiracy theories.
Are they all just the product of some pathetic loonies living in their moms basement, or could at least some of them be a form of covert warfare designed to vilify a nations reputation?

For money from DVDs/books/lectures or just plain old paranoia. That's the only thing I can come up with looking at how they "sell" their side of the story (everything taken out of context, lies and the best of all: fighter intercept time estimation from a friggin' ATC simulator manual :haha:).

Funny stuff:

9/11 Truthers: Meet the Creators of 'Loose Change'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs5jWvu4tR8

...Meet the 'Scholars for 9/11 Truth'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6fe9YlHQwA

...Meet Alex Jones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ikRc4ER2xY

[Tribesman]

...Meet Alex Jones

Isn't that the same fruitcake both Aramike and Maddog linked to earlier in this topic?
Isn't it sad that some people got all ranting and raving about some mosque two blocks away yet post links to some bloody idiot who stands right at ground zero spouting bull about worldwide jewish conspiracies and secret american government plans to commit mass murder

[Dowly]

^ Yeah, I believe someone linked to him earlier.

[Jimbuna]

I'd like to know who invents and perpetuates these conspiracy theories.
Are they all just the product of some pathetic loonies living in their moms basement, or could at least some of them be a form of covert warfare designed to vilify a nations reputation?

I could name at least one subscriber to this thread but it would be deemed as a personal attack :DL:03:

[Takeda Shingen]

I could name at least one subscriber to this thread but it would be deemed as a personal attack :DL:03:

Okay, I will come clean; it was me. I only do it because my tin foil hat gives me special powers.

[Dowly]

Okay, I will come clean; it was me. I only do it because my tin foil hat gives me special powers.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/retardpowers.jpg



:O:

[Reece]

WOW!!:o Is that really Takeda!!:dead:

[Jimbuna]

:har::har::har:

[Takeda Shingen]

WOW!!:o Is that really Takeda!!:dead:

And now you know.

[Sledgehammer427]

I thought you looked more Shogun-y.

Must be some kind of conspiracy.......:hmmm:

[CCIP]

I dunno, it looks to me like an accurate picture of his biggest fan (Third Man). :doh:

[Dowly]

I dunno, it looks to me like an accurate picture of his biggest fan (Third Man). :doh:

:rotfl2:

[Takeda Shingen]

I dunno, it looks to me like an accurate picture of his biggest fan (Third Man). :doh:

^^QFT

[tonschk]

Dr. Bob Bowman (Aeronautical and Nuclear Engineer) - Expose 9/11 World Trade Center Controlled Explosive Evidence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4X8OVL5vo&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4X8OVL5vo&feature=share)



World Trade Center Building SEVEN (47 stories high) Imploded in JUST about SEVEN seconds , check out the video of WTC building SEVEN the implosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjFBIeC_jU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjFBIeC_jU)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WieKk2o5GS8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WieKk2o5GS8)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8e81L-oEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8e81L-oEk)

[Morts]

sooo, how about you stop spewing out links and start arguing your case ?

[Kaleun Cook]

I thought this thread was over the post-youtube-vids-phase already. Bowman just expresses an opinion in this video, there are no facts presented. Why link it?

I just struggled a lot with myself to post an answer or not. I had written long replies to the policemen bit and the BBC bit already when I decided to let it be. It's just not worth the time. I only want to tell you what many others have said here before: Ask yourself if there's a simple explanation. Policemen telling people to get away from a burning building because "it's gonna come down". A huge conspiracy involving even the lowest ranks of the police or just a policeman making a random statement to get the gazers off the scene? The BBC accidently "announcing" the collapse or just a bad news source on probably the most chaotic day to report about in history? Well, I know what your answer is - and that's the reason why I decided not to go into any more detail in my post.

[Dowly]

Dr. Bob Bowman (Aeronautical and Nuclear Engineer) - Expose 9/11 World Trade Center Controlled Explosive Evidence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4X8OVL5vo&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4X8OVL5vo&feature=share)


World Trade Center Building SEVEN (47 stories high) Imploded in JUST about SEVEN seconds , check out the video of WTC building SEVEN the implosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjFBIeC_jU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjFBIeC_jU)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WieKk2o5GS8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WieKk2o5GS8)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8e81L-oEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8e81L-oEk)


9/11 Debunked: Columns Cut not by Thermite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySHgiUxnLC0

9/11 Debunked: World Trade Center "Topple-Over" Scenario:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Mhhvl7vWk

9/11 Debunked: Firefighters in the Impact Zone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1g3OAOiOP0

9/11 Debunked: Controlled Demolition Not Possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tacYjsS-g6k

9/11 Debunked: World Trade Center - No Free-Fall Speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLShZOvxVe4

9/11 Debunked: WTC 7's Collapse Explained:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8

9/11 Debunked: "Molten Metal" Explained:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhHzMttUKO0

9/11 Debunked: WTC "Base Smoke" Identified:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTXFnAIP6A0

9/11 Debunked: WTC "Pre-Collapse Explosions" Identified:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jir7yWTroN8

9/11 Debunked: Why 9/11 Commission Didn't Investigate WTC7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjcAoc3ZPwY

9/11 Debunked: WTC - Zero Hallmarks of Controlled Demolition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsUYhrXonXQ

9/11 Debunked: Thermate Chemical Signatures Disproven:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWpC_1WP8do


There, that should cover it.

BTW, I must apologize, I couldn't find my Crayons, so you just have to deal
with the default font colors.

[tonschk]

WTC NORTH TOWER EXPLODING, prof. David Chandler Expose the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center North tower , a must to see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EgN080yySe0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EgN080yySe0)

[Morts]

alright, i see you have no interest in a discussion, and that you only want to push your insane theories on others

http://www.ipandora.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/epic_fail.jpg

[Dowly]

@tonschk

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu145/bliat/facepalm-over9000.png

[Penguin]

What I would really like to know:
How do the 9/11 Truthers see the 1993 WTC bombing? Was this a real terror act or the first attempt of ______ (insert power of your choice) to demolish the building?
I haven't found anything about this yet.

@Morts: guess your "no-interest-in-discussion" theory was proven right...:-?

[Dowly]

What I would really like to know:
How do the 9/11 Truthers see the 1993 WTC bombing? Was this a real terror act or the first attempt of ______ (insert power of your choice) to demolish the building?
I haven't found anything about this yet.

Well take a ----ing guess! :DL

Obviously, it was FBI behind it (according to Alex Jones)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n76g57X4hM

[AVGWarhawk]

I love this guy.

http://trevorloudon.com/2011/05/pat-condell-on-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden/

[Jimbuna]

WTC NORTH TOWER EXPLODING, prof. David Chandler Expose the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center North tower , a must to see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EgN080yySe0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EgN080yySe0)

Beats me how someone can be allowed to have such an outrageous sig on an American owned forum :nope: