Bin Laden is dead, official

[MH]

It's about evidence, Neal. Just about evidence. So far, there is NONE. Just rumours, claims and hear-say. No evidence. And an insightful mastermind of the operation would have forseen the need for evidence and made sure that the objective of getting undeniable evidence gets acchieved at all cost.

The only thing i could believe is that they took him alive to squeeze him out and shoot in the head later.
Wishful thinking though.:D

[Gerald]

So secret is so outrageous and monstrous that neither republicans or democrats have nerve to expose it.
Then Obama just buries the secret and gains the points while every body keeps mouth shot? Of course there are secrets about this, but not the actual raid against OBL, perhaps ... a bit part may, however, it will be the cover of respect for the right learning the bait, in this action, which could have been considerably earlier, but there are reasons that make that it is right now, no coincidence.

[AVGWarhawk]

Skybird, they have gone to great lengths in this mission. Bases surrounding me went into high alert over the weekend when this was occurring. I'm not sure why all the theatrics if this was a stage show only or showboating for some particular reason. This was was years of intel and some gotten at Gitmo (Tribesman :O:) from what I hear. For a team of Seals to risk their lives for a good show during the Obama administration does not make sense. I believe OBL is dead.

[Skybird]

So what would it take for you to be satisfied? Is there any evidence that would satisfy you?
Something that is better than a photoshop job that copied an image of a smashed skull from 2009 over a Bin Laden portrait from 1998. Beyond that forged photo we only have claims by the officials.

An animated feed that portraits the dead body together with an actual newspaper frontpage - that would have been a good start, and one that could even have been managed.

So far there is a forged photo, an sea burial with nobody able to witness the iodentity of the body that got kicked over board, a claimed genetical analysis that also lacks witnesses able to confirm that the sample from the body indeed was the sample from the body and that the comparsion sample indeed was that from Bin Laden, and his wife identifying BL. ASll oif this has been seen in many Mafia plotsa on TV, and even in real life, from forged dentist documentations to bought (or blackm ailed or intimidated witnesses).

It's the media age. Seeing is believeing. Animated feeds (animation makes it more difficult to forge details for example in a newspaper frontpage so perfectly that manipulated pixels can'T be identified) would have been the best start for proving that it was Bin Laden who got killed yesterday.

I am not about conspiracy theories. But what there is until now, simply is njot fully convincing. There is no evidence, but a forged photo and just this: claims. That is not good enough to really close the file. While the WH has an outspoken interest for right this: to just see the Bin Laden file closed, and claim it to be a success, and profit from this.

[razark]

It seems to me that if this was going to be faked, it would have been faked a lot closer to November 2012.

Of course, some people will never be convinced. There are people that seem to thrive off of disbelieving anything the government claims.

[MaddogK]

I wanna see Bin Ladens dialysis machines .

For someone with kidney failure, and never leaves his home those EXPENSIVE machines gotta be somewhere on site, right ?

:D

[tater]

Who came up with the 1 million figure? Is it based at all on actual cost or is it more like a "million dollar haircut"?

I think you are right. The press is simply doing what they do... Making stuff up.

[MaddogK]

I think you are right. The press is simply doing what they do... Making stuff up.

Could be...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5goImUTnFgQHITWZJdbpPLB6lngWA?docId=ec68f068e 92f4c649eb81332d190b7e6

[Gerald]

This type of speculation that "he" is or not, is so completely insane that he is in hell laughing at this, the mission is accomplished, moreover, it is bad for morale, but these kinds of excesses.

[Skybird]

Of course, some people will never be convinced. There are people that seem to thrive off of disbelieving anything the government claims.
And othger püeople will always be convinced, no matter what. They thrive of belief even when not a single evidence is there and the one "evidence" having been given is a confirmed forgery and even meanwhilke has been withdrawn from publication, if I understand it correctly.

It was claimed by Pentagon employees that there is indeed photography that could serve as evidence for the events yesterday night. If it indeed is that, all speculations could bed ended immediately when releasing it. Just giving excuses for why it is not being released, just feeds speculations.

Believing on the basis of confirmed forgery and nothingness, is no virtue. Not even a sign of cleverness.

I'm the first to welcome the confirmation of BL's end. My fiorst posting in thios thread expressed cheers and congratuilations. The doubts I got when realising how thin the "evidence" given so far really is. Maybe it nevertheless is true. But it cold also be that it all is just a staged event to give Obama a boost in a time of national crisis. These doubts are legitimiate, and well-founded so far: no proof, just a forged photo, and claims - nothing else so far. It is not the same like doubting the landing on the moon.

If I have learned one thing in life, it is to never trust or respect politics and that politicians and ideologic leaders alike stop short of nothing if it serves their interest.

The excuses for a much bigger operation like the Vietnam war or the Iraq war, were staged. The excuse for the German attack on Poland, was staged. How much easier must it be to stage the "evidence" for a small and limited operation like two helicopters full of troops killing one person?

[Growler]

Apply Occam's Razor, Sky.

The simplest theory is that the news is true as they tell it; the next level of complexity is that the news is true as they tell it, with the additional weight of new data changing or superseding previous editions. From there, things become ever more complicated as more variations and theories work their way into it, making it more difficult to prove satisfactorily; such ad hoc hypotheses only cloud the issue further by adding unnecessary layers of obfuscation to the story.

[flatsixes]

I would not release the death photo. Why give his followers anything useful to recruit more murderous zealots? To "prove" to the inevitable unbelievers and conspiracy whacks on the fringe that the U.S. did what it said it did? Nonsense. You will never satisfy that crowd, so move past it. If OBL is really still alive, and just off somewhere bowling with Elvis, we'll read about it soon enough in The New York Times and Der Spiegel courtesy of Wikileaks. That f*cker is dead, and I feel fine.

[Gerald]

I personally have never trusted what is written, one must always "read between the lines, and if I want Information it does it through other channels, some newspapers want to sell, and that in many cases, so they do not have that much information , and right now there is a drought in this state if previous OBL, precisely because the authorities did not release as much or nothing right now .. and then, speculation and utter bitches into the picture, the day will come very soon as more card comes up on the table

[Growler]

I personally have never trusted what is written, one must always "read between the lines, and if I want Information it does it through other channels, some newspapers want to sell, and that in many cases, so they do not have that much information , and right now there is a drought in this state if previous OBL, precisely because the authorities did not release as much or nothing right now .. and then, speculation and utter bitches into the picture, the day will come very soon as more card comes up on the table

Forgive me, my thinking, and as a consequence, my ability to articulate those thoughts, is a bit muddled.

I'm not advocating blind acceptance of the story - in my opinion, that's as bad as blindly rejecting the story. What I am advocating is a process of reasoned thought and critical thinking instead of needlessly complicating a story with diversionary thoughts.

[Biggles]

Osama is dead or captured/soon dead. There is no way that they'd publish news of his demise and funeral at sea if there was even a glimmer of a chance for him to contact the outer world and prove them wrong. That would be the death sentence of any government, and noone is foolish enough to take that risk.

[Onkel Neal]

What the US should have done: well prior to capturing Osama, or killing him, they should have fenced off several hundred acres in central Afghanistan, some area that is easy to access. They should have constructed a huge concrete mausoleum, and then kept it secret and guarded until the day the got Obama, er, Osama, sorry. Then they could bury Osama's body in the mausoleum and annouced out of respect to Islam, they would allow a pilgrimage one time a year.




Then after the 4th or 5th year when the attendance was really high, blow up the shrine and all the supporters in attendance.

[Skybird]

Apply Occam's Razor, Sky.


Ah haha, at least you know me well enough to know what is the most promising way to get me on the train. :DL :up:

It's just that we do not talk about rational scientific methodology and theory-building here, but irrational political interest-securing.

I expect that within the next 1-3 days they will release pohotos of the dead body that in any way make clear the identity of the dead body, and the time when it was shot. To hell with sentim,ents in the Muslim world that will cook up over this, if the story is true like it is being told, it is more important to kill the - so far very legitimate - doubts in their cradle. If hysterics think that this is a reason why their red-faced skulls must burst open again like popcorn, who cares. Every burst religious hysteric's head makes the world a slightly friendlier place to live in.

What I want is just this: a clearance of the the issue, an evidecnce beyond doubt. Not this unripe hear-say and forged material there is until now. As I saids, to 70% I assume it is trtue (I assume, I do not know so far), to 20% I think BL has been dead since longer time, and to 10% I think he still lives and just any nobody got killed yesterday, a double. We know that BL had several doubles.

[Gerald]

Forgive me, my thinking, and as a consequence, my ability to articulate those thoughts, is a bit muddled.

I'm not advocating blind acceptance of the story - in my opinion, that's as bad as blindly rejecting the story. What I am advocating is a process of reasoned thought and critical thinking instead of needlessly complicating a story with diversionary thoughts. No, I understand you, it's okay, my post was from my point of reference, what you say here is relevant in many ways, especially how opionen generally perceive this, which of course is a science .... almost

[Skybird]

I also say that it is hilarious what debates are now being waged over the morality of killing Bin Laden and whether or not it is legitimate for a democracy to kill an enemy. Every Western government kills when the police hunts down a gangster and he starts to shoot at the police. But one of the worst gangster of the past two decade suddenly should represent the exception? Democracies have the right to kill their enemies in self-defence or prevention of these enemies committing such disastrous crimes like Al Quaeda did. It needs a truly decadent society to start a debate about the legality of this, really.

[MaddogK]

Prolly had one of these new machines installed on U.S.S. Carl Vinson at the last refit, because they knew already that the HVT at that compound was Bin Laden:
Typical lab-based DNA matching tests like this can take up to 14 days; they're painstaking and need to be repeated several times to ensure the sample's not contaminated from any other DNA sources. But that's not necessarily the only way to do these tests: late in 2010, a University of Arizona team presented (http://www.kpho.com/news/25550382/detail.html) research on a machine that can do the analysis in just two hours in a largely automated way. It's possible that knowing they were engaged on a mission to capture bin Laden, U.S. forces arranged for access to a machine like this to be on quick alert — probably for flying blood, cheek cells, and other samples taken from the body to the lab for expedited analysis.

...then they buried him at sea within 24 hours with full Muslim respects.

I also heard they stripped all the computers of hard drives when they we're in the compound those 40 minutes, I wonder if they took the time to look for hidden rooms and such. We may never know as the compound was on fire when the teams left.
:arrgh!:

[TLAM Strike]

Anyone see the chopper we lost was some new yet unreported type? (http://defensetech.org/2011/05/03/secret-helo-may-have-been-used-in-bin-laden-raid/) :hmmm:

[Gerald]

What the US should have done: well prior to capturing Osama, or killing him, they should have fenced off several hundred acres in central Afghanistan, some area that is easy to access. They should have constructed a huge concrete mausoleum, and then kept it secret and guarded until the day the got Obama, er, Osama, sorry. Then they could bury Osama's body in the mausoleum and annouced out of respect to Islam, they would allow a pilgrimage one time a year.




Then after the 4th or 5th year when the attendance was really high, blow up the shrine and all the supporters in attendance. No way, he has already become a martyr to some, shall we go back strap a half years, so maybe it could come true, I was in Pakistan last year, and there was no pleasure trip directly, but to see his face to mine, had been the top, and I promise that the outcome had been different

[AVGWarhawk]

What the US should have done: well prior to capturing Osama, or killing him, they should have fenced off several hundred acres in central Afghanistan, some area that is easy to access. They should have constructed a huge concrete mausoleum, and then kept it secret and guarded until the day the got Obama, er, Osama, sorry. Then they could bury Osama's body in the mausoleum and annouced out of respect to Islam, they would allow a pilgrimage one time a year.




Then after the 4th or 5th year when the attendance was really high, blow up the shrine and all the supporters in attendance.


Need one more item....make it pay-per-view when the bomb drops and solve the national debt! :up:

[GoldenRivet]

What the US should have done: well prior to capturing Osama, or killing him, they should have fenced off several hundred acres in central Afghanistan, some area that is easy to access. They should have constructed a huge concrete mausoleum, and then kept it secret and guarded until the day the got Obama, er, Osama, sorry. Then they could bury Osama's body in the mausoleum and annouced out of respect to Islam, they would allow a pilgrimage one time a year.




Then after the 4th or 5th year when the attendance was really high, blow up the shrine and all the supporters in attendance.

I like it!:rock:

Im borrowing that

[Gerald]

Anyone see the chopper we lost was some new yet unreported type? (http://defensetech.org/2011/05/03/secret-helo-may-have-been-used-in-bin-laden-raid/) :hmmm: American property!

[MaddogK]

This gets more interesting by the minute: now its 4 helos ?
The seals were from Bagram (in Afghanistan), but the exit was to the Arabian sea- right down the center of the Pakistani country ? Or did they fly back to Afghanistan, fly the length of the country and fly back over pakistan enroute to the Carl Vinson, or make a bee-line to Indian airspace and fly south to the Arabian sea.

:hmmm:

I find it hard to believe a Chinook wasn't picked up by Paki air defenses.

[Gargamel]

Yay!

:up:

[Penguin]

Osama is dead or captured/soon dead. There is no way that they'd publish news of his demise and funeral at sea if there was even a glimmer of a chance for him to contact the outer world and prove them wrong. That would be the death sentence of any government, and noone is foolish enough to take that risk.

Exactly! It's quite easy to disprove false death claims: just wave into the cam and say: "Hey guys, I'm alive and kicking!" :DL

If Obama would have staged it, imo the better time would be either before the mid-term elections or before the primaries. Now is not really the best time, voters tend to forget very fast.


I also say that it is hilarious what debates are now being waged over the morality of killing Bin Laden and whether or not it is legitimate for a democracy to kill an enemy. Every Western government kills when the police hunts down a gangster and he starts to shoot at the police. But one of the worst gangster of the past two decade suddenly should represent the exception? Democracies have the right to kill their enemies in self-defence or prevention of these enemies committing such disastrous crimes like Al Quaeda did. It needs a truly decadent society to start a debate about the legality of this, really.

Nope, it's not a sign of a decadent society, but the sign that we don't live in a police state where people do not question decisions of the government. You may not agree with those people, this doesn't mean that a discussion is not legitimate - even if they have no good point ;)

[Gerald]

I also say that it is hilarious what debates are now being waged over the morality of killing Bin Laden and whether or not it is legitimate for a democracy to kill an enemy. Every Western government kills when the police hunts down a gangster and he starts to shoot at the police. But one of the worst gangster of the past two decade suddenly should represent the exception? Democracies have the right to kill their enemies in self-defence or prevention of these enemies committing such disastrous crimes like Al Quaeda did. It needs a truly decadent society to start a debate about the legality of this, really. In this case barely, if you have two goals in front of you, you know that both do not hesitate to kill, they like it, who do you choose? Or would you go back, then you have two targets that are in your vicinity, therefore no soul defense situation, how would you act, plan and proceed with the slopes or you, for in both cases they are potent killers and do not care about you, you are only in their statistics, one in the crowd, of course, have to measure, but a debate like that in this case is ridiculous

[Jimbuna]

What the US should have done: well prior to capturing Osama, or killing him, they should have fenced off several hundred acres in central Afghanistan, some area that is easy to access. They should have constructed a huge concrete mausoleum, and then kept it secret and guarded until the day the got Obama, er, Osama, sorry. Then they could bury Osama's body in the mausoleum and annouced out of respect to Islam, they would allow a pilgrimage one time a year.




Then after the 4th or 5th year when the attendance was really high, blow up the shrine and all the supporters in attendance.

Priceless!! :rock:

[tater]

The gang that can't shoot straight.

For all the talk a couple years ago about the media-savvy Obama, they screw up at least as much if not more than W.

OBL was armed, and using a woman as a shield... turns out no human shield, and OBL was completely unarmed. Initial reports from the admin were "a 40 minute firefight." Instead it was 40 minutes total. Probably under 5 were violence (the whole point of special teams trained for "violence of action"), and the rest was carting away intel and leaving. Way to feed the loons, morons. This is all stuff they should have been sure of before leaking. The "firefight" stuff helps them vs claims of extra-judicial killing (with the left, since they seem to care about AQ's "rights"), but it also paints a picture for AQ supporters of dear leader going out in a blaze of glory over an extended firefight. Instead he was killed in his jammies, unarmed---likely within seconds to a handful of minutes from hearing helos. No strong death for that soldier of allah, he died like the women AQ is fond of murdering.

Just wish the WH had gotten their ducks in a row to help keep the conspiracy loons and OBL supporters at bay.

[Ducimus]

Link?

[tater]

The retraction on the human shield, etc, is everywhere.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54162.html

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/white-house-corrects-bin-laden-narrative/

etc, ad nauseum.

Was in the press conference today.

[tater]

Or these:

http://www.cnn.com/

http://abcnews.go.com/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

(top story on virtually all news pages)

[Skybird]

In this case barely, if you have two goals in front of you, you know that both do not hesitate to kill, they like it, who do you choose? Or would you go back, then you have two targets that are in your vicinity, therefore no soul defense situation, how would you act, plan and proceed with the slopes or you, for in both cases they are potent killers and do not care about you, you are only in their statistics, one in the crowd, of course, have to measure, but a debate like that in this case is ridiculous
W-w-woot...??
Oh my, pardon...!?:DL I must admit I have no clue of what you try to say here! :D

[Gerald]

W-w-woot...??
Oh my, pardon...!?:DL I must admit I have no clue of what you try to say here! :DSo, you talked about a possible "debate" on the subject in question and I mentioned just one example, no big deal :hmmm:

[MaddogK]

Yup, as posted #246, Bin Laden been executed.

[Ducimus]

I dont understand why they are changing details of the account of the raid, or why the feel compelled to change the story at all. If someone shot the raghead in his pajama's, then say so the first time around.

[Jimbuna]

Latest news on BBC tv say his wife was initially shot in the leg to prevent her shielding him then he was shot once in the chest and once in the head (whilst unarmed).

[longam]

I dont understand why they are changing details of the account of the raid, or why the feel compelled to change the story at all. If someone shot the raghead in his pajama's, then say so the first time around.

With the 24/7 media channels now they have gone over the edge on trying to fill the void of time they have on air. Its sad really.

[Madox58]

It's all been recorded.
Just release the videos!

If his woman jumped in front of him to protect him?
I would have shot throught her!
Sorry about your luck Witch but I'm going home alive!
If he resisted in any way?
Sorry about your luck, take a few bullets ArseHole!

I don't see Obama as any big Hero in this.
Whoever was in charge at this moment would have gotten credit anyway.
Bush, Lincoln, Nixon.
It don't matter in the actual facts.

The Richard Cranium is DEAD!!
That is all that matters.

Now let's go and do the same for all the others.

[Skybird]

I assume it is a safe bet that this was a kill mission, no capture mission. Just imagine the hassle at home and around the world, the media fire, the political correctness and human rights bombardement if he would have been taken alive. The discussions on how to deal with him legally. Endless rounds and rounds of debate and expertises. Why giving him this last final triumph and make him the on and on star of the media for months to come?

No, it is better the way it was done: go in, kill him, get rid of the body at sea, job done, game over, file closed, be back in time for early breakfast, period.

If he is really dea, the b etter it is. Dog doesn't balk and bite again - nice for all and everybody. Now hunt and slay the other dogs of the pack. That would be time better spent than endlessly discussing how to deal with Bin Laden at court.

[yubba]

One could hope that the funeral, consisted, of a wood chipper on the fan tail and a couple of pounds of bacon to cleanse the wood chipper.:har:

[tater]

The administration is so very amateurish in how they are dealing with this. The story keeps changing. Seems like they had time to get a reliable after action report before going into any specifics. I don't think it's nefarious, when in doubt, assume incompetence.

They are now basically saying it was a kill mission unless OBL raised his arms to surrender. I say release everything. I had to watch people deciding that jumping from the towers was the better option live that morning. Watching some jihadis get whacked is nothing compared to that.

I think it's clear that they could have had him alive had they wanted. He would have been far more useful interrogated (using any means demonstrated to be effective). Since the administration is very on record being against any form of interrogation past the dreaded "comfy chair," and, he was unlikely to be Mirandized by Seals, killing him was the best option.

The biggest surprise, IMHO, was going public so fast. Seems like having grabbed up computers, etc, they should have tried to roll up some other high value targets before they knew the boss was compromised.

[August]

I assume it is a safe bet that this was a kill mission, no capture mission. Just imagine the hassle at home and around the world, the media fire, the political correctness and human rights bombardement if he would have been taken alive. The discussions on how to deal with him legally. Endless rounds and rounds of debate and expertises. Why giving him this last final triumph and make him the on and on star of the media for months to come?

No, it is better the way it was done: go in, kill him, get rid of the body at sea, job done, game over, file closed, be back in time for early breakfast, period.

If he is really dea, the b etter it is. Dog doesn't balk and bite again - nice for all and everybody. Now hunt and slay the other dogs of the pack. That would be time better spent than endlessly discussing how to deal with Bin Laden at court.

We don't always agree Skybird but I think you are spot on here.

[Bakkels]

The administration is so very amateurish in how they are dealing with this. The story keeps changing. Seems like they had time to get a reliable after action report before going into any specifics. I don't think it's nefarious, when in doubt, assume incompetence.

The biggest surprise, IMHO, was going public so fast. Seems like having grabbed up computers, etc, they should have tried to roll up some other high value targets before they knew the boss was compromised.

Yes well that got me thinking. Do you really think that the administration didn't come up with all those things you just mentioned there?
It's not quantumphysics, it's just logical reasoning. And if you like the guys in office or you don't, I think we can agree that they're quite a bit more intelligent than the average guy. So to me it seems they there's no way they didn't think of this.
I'm not making any point here though, it's just an observation. I have no idea why they handled the case the way that they did, but I'm sure they thought about everything you just said there.

[Armistead]

We don't always agree Skybird but I think you are spot on here.

I'm sure they did say surrender as they were taking aim.

"Surrender Osama"
"I surrender"

Voice recognition software starts buzzing...ding "Match"

bam bam bam...

[tater]

No, I think they jump to talk to the camera, and are willing to backtrack. Backtracking is a bad idea, IMHO. Better to get it right the first time.

Doing what they are doing on purpose implies some sort of bizarre "conspiracy" (to mislead) on their part that I think is silly. I just think they are disorganized. The 24 hour news cycle makes it worse, since every single little statement is instantly glommed onto. More reason to be precise the first time if you are capable of that level of organization.

[tater]

I'm sure they did say surrender as they were taking aim.

"Surrender Osama"
"I surrender"

Voice recognition software starts buzzing...ding "Match"

bam bam bam...

Nah, one guys yells: "HANDS IN THE AIR! NOW!!!!"

Other yells "DON'T MOVE A MUSCLE!!!!"

Repeat a few times, then both shoot as the perp decides to move his hands up to get shot, or freeze to get shot. :)

[August]

Nah, one guys yells: "HANDS IN THE AIR! NOW!!!!"

Other yells "DON'T MOVE A MUSCLE!!!!"

Repeat a few times, then both shoot as the perp decides to move his hands up to get shot, or freeze to get shot. :)

I prefer to think that the last thing Osama heard was "Uncle Sam says hello."

[TLAM Strike]

I assume it is a safe bet that this was a kill mission, no capture mission. Just imagine the hassle at home and around the world, the media fire, the political correctness and human rights bombardement if he would have been taken alive. The discussions on how to deal with him legally. Endless rounds and rounds of debate and expertises. Why giving him this last final triumph and make him the on and on star of the media for months to come?

No, it is better the way it was done: go in, kill him, get rid of the body at sea, job done, game over, file closed, be back in time for early breakfast, period.

If he is really dea, the b etter it is. Dog doesn't balk and bite again - nice for all and everybody. Now hunt and slay the other dogs of the pack. That would be time better spent than endlessly discussing how to deal with Bin Laden at court.

How to deal with him legally? Simple: charge him in NY federal court with 3,000 counts of Felony murder plus 17,400 counts of attempted murder or instigation there of. Following that trial extradite him to Virgina for 200 counts of Felony murder, then to PA for 40 counts.

Following the Trial ship him to ADX Florence where all the other convicted Islamic terrorists are stored.

Everyone who lost someone on 9/11 deserves to see OBL face justice by the system he sought to destroy.

A dead OBL just gives the Arab Street more conspiracy theories.

[August]

A dead OBL just gives the Arab Street more conspiracy theories.


And show trials somehow wouldn't? A violent death at the hands of an American. That's enough.

[Blood_splat]

Bleeding heart liberals would be complaining about how he is being treated in prison.

Bin Laden, the hide and seek champion of 2001-2011.

[krashkart]

The most unlikely last words heard by bin Laden before he died:

"They saved me fifty percent on my car insurance..."
"I just heard that the Goths were eliminated from the Amazing Race."
"Har! Nobody saw that one coming?" :O:
"Hey John! I *made out with your Mom last night!"
"Really. Was she any good?"
"Good God, Matthews. I told you the bean dip was a bad idea."
"Can't have Fritos without bean dip, amigo." :O:



*cleaned up for family-friendliness

[Factor]

How to deal with him legally? Simple: charge him in NY federal court with 3,000 counts of Felony murder plus 17,400 counts of attempted murder or instigation there of. Following that trial extradite him to Virgina for 200 counts of Felony murder, then to PA for 40 counts.

Following the Trial ship him to ADX Florence where all the other convicted Islamic terrorists are stored.

Everyone who lost someone on 9/11 deserves to see OBL face justice by the system he sought to destroy.

A dead OBL just gives the Arab Street more conspiracy theories.


A 5.56 NATO round is alot cheaper...

[Ducimus]

A 5.56 NATO round is alot cheaper...

:up: :yeah:

[Factor]

And show trials somehow wouldn't? A violent death at the hands of an American. That's enough.

Not just any American, but an American NAVY SEAL!

:salute:

[Takeda Shingen]

And show trials somehow wouldn't? A violent death at the hands of an American. That's enough.

^^This. I am, personally, very pleased that this monster's last view of earth was an American Navy Seal pointing a gun at his head.

[Platapus]

How about this for a hypothesis?

If you captured UBL, would you make a public statement about it? Probably not. :nope: A live UBL would be a temporary victory, but a long term problem. The problem with a captured UBL is what are you going to do with him? Have him rot at Gitmo? Bring him to trial? If we are scared of trying the small fry at Gitmo, can you imagine the risk of trying UBL in court?) :nope:

No. Publicly capturing UBL is more trouble then it is worth. While there would not be an attempt to rescue UBL, the possibility of AQ holding hostages demanding his release would be very high. Not a good position. So what is the alternative?

What if we captured UBL and not make it public?

Our special forces have many non-lethal tools that allow them to capture someone alive if they want.

What if we captured UBL alive and just announce that he is dead? A burial at sea ensures that the body is never found. To the world he is dead. No one looks for a dead person. No one holds hostages for the release of a man buried at sea. :yep:

Once the "body" is wrapped, it is easy to keep the secret from the rest of the crew. Something was buried at sea. The only people in the know would be a small number.

We can then transport UBL to a secure location for what is euphemistically called destructive interrogation. Everyone thinks he is dead, no rescue attempts, no hostage situations, no blackmail operations to force us to release him. We have all the time in the world. After the interrogation, his body is disposed of secretly. A very clean operation.

I have no evidence to believe this is what happened. But it is an interesting hypothesis to consider. :yep:

[TLAM Strike]

A 5.56 NATO round is alot cheaper... So is a 50 kt hydrogen bomb, yet we didn't use that either.

[tater]

A good idea, frankly.

The plausible death means that you have more time to roll up more cells. With the helo crash, there was no way the neighbors wouldn't know something big went down, and there was likely someone else who knew where he was.

[Factor]

So is a 50 kt hydrogen bomb, yet we didn't use that either.


It was considered.....:D

[Factor]

A good idea, frankly.

The plausible death means that you have more time to roll up more cells. With the helo crash, there was no way the neighbors wouldn't know something big went down, and there was likely someone else who knew where he was.


The Pakistanis had to know where he was....

You do not have a fortified compound a mile away from a military academy. With no idea, or interest it seems, to know what is going on there.

The facts surrounding this, will be very interesting in the coming days/months.

[TLAM Strike]

It was considered.....:D
I was making a serious point. We could win the war tomorrow if we wanted and turn the whole Islamic world in to burned sand. But we don't because that is not the American way.

What happened to doing things not because they are easy but because they are hard.

Yes hauling OBL to NY City and putting him on trial would be controversial, and expensive, and cause countless threats against America. But dammit that is the American Way! If you commit a crime on American soil you will be tried by Americans in an American court. That is so important a concept that we put it in the Constitution (see Amendment 5).

I hate terrorists, I hate their methods. Anyone who would commit a crime against innocents for a political end is the lowest form of scum. But sending black clad troops to kill an unarmed and non-uniformed person in their sleep is no different. We have sets of law to deal with criminals, and to determine who deals with them. I don't believe those were followed here.

[Factor]

...to kill an unarmed and non-uniformed person in their sleep...


Guess he should of armed himself then.

[Feuer Frei!]

Anyone who would commit a crime against innocents for a political end
Or religious.

On another note, i'm surprised he wasn't armed.
He must have felt very safe in his hideout. Obviously had no prior warning of the imminent assassination.

[Ducimus]

^^This. I am, personally, very pleased that this monster's last view of earth was an American Navy Seal pointing a gun at his head.

I just wanted you to know, i looked all over for an apporpriate image to respond to this with. Couldn't find quite the right image..... but.... hell ya, i agree.

[reignofdeath]

Like said before, I would love to see him on trial for his crimes, but it would open a whole new can of worms. Possible retaliation in the form of mass hostages for trade for him or something, and the legal, oh my, you know out of everyone in America there will be SOMEONE or some group who will campaign that OBL gets his civil liberties, and that he is treated fairly in trial, and is given a nice padded cell in prison and what not. I mean, imagine the immense pain of the families who lost their loved ones during 9/11 to watch that go on. I would be horrified. Not to mention, Bin Laden would be living it up, we'd be giving the man what he wanted, and how he wanted. Much easier, cleaner, and dare I say impactful to have him shot in the head like has been stated.

Just like someone before said, its enough to know that the last view of earth he saw was a US Navy Seal pointing a gun barrel at his head.

[reignofdeath]

I was making a serious point. We could win the war tomorrow if we wanted and turn the whole Islamic world in to burned sand. But we don't because that is not the American way.

What happened to doing things not because they are easy but because they are hard.

Yes hauling OBL to NY City and putting him on trial would be controversial, and expensive, and cause countless threats against America. But dammit that is the American Way! If you commit a crime on American soil you will be tried by Americans in an American court. That is so important a concept that we put it in the Constitution (see Amendment 5).

I hate terrorists, I hate their methods. Anyone who would commit a crime against innocents for a political end is the lowest form of scum. But sending black clad troops to kill an unarmed and non-uniformed person in their sleep is no different. We have sets of law to deal with criminals, and to determine who deals with them. I don't believe those were followed here.

It seems the majority is completely okay with that. I mean, we ARE talking about the most wanted man in the world. Errr past tense.

On another note, I want to know why Pakistan had their head in the sand. I mean, only 1 mile from a military academy? Really?? And they couldn't find him??

[Torplexed]

Like said before, I would love to see him on trial for his crimes, but it would open a whole new can of worms. Possible retaliation in the form of mass hostages for trade for him or something, and the legal, oh my, you know out of everyone in America there will be SOMEONE or some group who will campaign that OBL gets his civil liberties, and that he is treated fairly in trial, and is given a nice padded cell in prison and what not.

I think of the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, who basically turned the bungled prosecution in the Hague into a bully pulpit to expound his own views, and died in his cell before a verdict was reached, generating a drove of conspiracy theories which persist in Serbia and points east to this day. Herman Goering also escaped the hangman's noose at Nuremberg with some smuggled poison. For some reason, trials for criminals of this magnitude tend to go awry. Public fascination with mass murderers tend to muddy the water as well. They always seem to generate sympathizers even among those they wished to kill.

[mookiemookie]

I think of the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, who basically turned the bungled prosecution in the Hague into a bully pulpit to expound his own views, and died in his cell before a verdict was reached, generating a drove of conspiracy theories which persist in Serbia and points east to this day. Herman Goering also escaped the hangman's noose at Nuremberg with some smuggled poison. For some reason, trials for criminals of this magnitude tend to go awry. Public fascination with mass murderers tend to muddy the water as well. They always seem to generate sympathizers even among those they wished to kill.

Indeed. Why give him the venue, the rallying point and the publicity. The result was going to be the same either way. Glad that one of our boys got him.

[Aramike]

I have not been at all complimentary of President Obama, but in this case I am. Well done, Mr. President!

[Onkel Neal]

I have not been at all complimentary of President Obama, but in this case I am. Well done, Mr. President!


Agreed. He didn't play it safe, and he came out on top. This is about doing the right thing for the country, and he did it.

[Feuer Frei!]

This is about doing the right thing for the country
And for the world.

[Penguin]

And for the world.

^signed



What if we captured UBL and not make it public?

Our special forces have many non-lethal tools that allow them to capture someone alive if they want.

What if we captured UBL alive and just announce that he is dead? A burial at sea ensures that the body is never found. To the world he is dead. No one looks for a dead person. No one holds hostages for the release of a man buried at sea. :yep:

Once the "body" is wrapped, it is easy to keep the secret from the rest of the crew. Something was buried at sea. The only people in the know would be a small number.

We can then transport UBL to a secure location for what is euphemistically called destructive interrogation. Everyone thinks he is dead, no rescue attempts, no hostage situations, no blackmail operations to force us to release him. We have all the time in the world. After the interrogation, his body is disposed of secretly. A very clean operation.

I have no evidence to believe this is what happened. But it is an interesting hypothesis to consider. :yep:

This is exactly how I would do it if I were Obama. Just to squeeze out the maximum on intel: informations about crypto-codes, structures, communication, etc.

I've heard that they also captured his PC. I guess they'll find some interesting stuff on it - besides COD and burqa porn ;), but a live prisoner is much more valuable.

[Sammi79]

Yes hauling OBL to NY City and putting him on trial would be controversial, and expensive, and cause countless threats against America. But dammit that is the American Way! If you commit a crime on American soil you will be tried by Americans in an American court. That is so important a concept that we put it in the Constitution (see Amendment 5).

I agree with this sentiment but in reality, where would you find a jury that didn't have any pre-judgement in this situation? A fair trial would have been very improbable. Perhaps it is better this way and if the description of how they dealt with the body (last rites sea burial normal respect) is true then I am thankful for that after watching Saddam being ridiculed in his execution. Something about the celebrations makes me feel uneasy though.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr

[reignofdeath]

I agree with this sentiment but in reality, where would you find a jury that didn't have any pre-judgement in this situation? A fair trial would have been very improbable. Perhaps it is better this way and if the description of how they dealt with the body (last rites sea burial normal respect) is true then I am thankful for that after watching Saddam being ridiculed in his execution. Something about the celebrations makes me feel uneasy though.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr

Honestly, I actually liked that they did this, if it did really happen lol. It just shows that yes we shot him, but we took the high road and actually paid respects to him just because he was a human being.

[tater]

His daughter (who was in the room) says that they captured him alive, then shot him.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

He needed killin' so none of it bothers me. Still, while the call to go on the mission was a good one, the administration is getting more clueless by the day. Now Gates and Clinton saying no to showing pics—they've had this intel now and have been practicing for months apparently, did the WH not bother working up what they'd SAY?

Ike had a speech prepared to give in case of failure at D-Day. That's called being organized. You'd think the WH would have mapped the media path for both success and failure, even including multiple paths to success (captured, men lost on the attack, etc). WTF is the matter with these guys? They're acting like they got the intel Friday, pulled the trigger, and are now forced to figure out what to say on the fly. They've had months to prepare, and this is what we get?

[Bakkels]

I agree with this sentiment but in reality, where would you find a jury that didn't have any pre-judgement in this situation? A fair trial would have been very improbable. Perhaps it is better this way and if the description of how they dealt with the body (last rites sea burial normal respect) is true then I am thankful for that after watching Saddam being ridiculed in his execution. Something about the celebrations makes me feel uneasy though.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr

Very well put. :yeah:

[tater]

I don't think he deserved respectful treatment, and in fact it sends the wrong message.

His followers think of him as a model of piety, but the narrative since 9-11 has been that AQ "hijacked" a religion of peace. As such, he doesn't deserve treatment within said religion.

Giving him "proper" treatment sent the message that we also elevate him to the status of a pious man who deserved it. He should have been unceremoniously dumped with the trash, IMHO. And in case of conspiracy we should have held him on ice for a while first for forensics.

[STEED]

I Hear on the news Obama may not release the picture of the dead Bin Laden.

[Penguin]

I've heard that Obama was killed by Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n14reQsr9Q

:D

[STEED]

I've heard that Obama was killed by Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n14reQsr9Q

:D

What a twit that women is...:dead:

[Penguin]

What a twit that women is...:dead:

Naw her looks do compensate a little! :03:
I think she's canadian, regarding her pronounciation of "about".

[tater]

Property worth far less than US claim:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/04/osama-bin-laden-hideout-worth

More like $250,000.

Still a dump, even at 250k. I see the point in exaggerating it, the idea is to drive home to his "troops" that he was living a cushy life with his youngest wife while they were, you know, martyring themselves for the cause.

The entire US narrative was wrong, IMO. We should have said he was quiet as a lamb, and the Seals put him down like the dog he was. We'd then have taken his carcass (I'd have used that word, too, in all official reports) to the ship, done forensics as for a couple days, then I'd report his body was dumped at sea—ideally cut into pieces for sharks. No "burial" at sea, garbage disposal.

That would've been my narrative, anyway. The message being we will hunt you until we find you, we will kill you like a rabid animal, and feed you to the fishes.

[tater]

What a twit that women is...:dead:

To be fair to all the "speaking" media (vs print), the two names are so nearly identical, it's gotta be a really easy mistake to make. I don't think it shows bias, etc, I think it's just too easy to make a mistake.

In terms of print media, I imagine some spell checkers are set to correct anything close to "Obama" to avoid accidentally putting Osama there by mistake.

[AVGWarhawk]

it's gotta be a really easy mistake to make.


In the lime light of such a critical event one would hope those reporting would do their very best not to screw it up. :hmmm:

[kranz]

To be fair to all the "speaking" media (vs print), the two names are so nearly identical, it's gotta be a really easy mistake to make. I don't think it shows bias, etc, I think it's just too easy to make a mistake.

repeating it 4 (four) times means being a brainless creature, no matter how similar these two words are.

[Sammi79]

I don't think he deserved respectful treatment, and in fact it sends the wrong message.

His followers think of him as a model of piety, but the narrative since 9-11 has been that AQ "hijacked" a religion of peace. As such, he doesn't deserve treatment within said religion.

Giving him "proper" treatment sent the message that we also elevate him to the status of a pious man who deserved it. He should have been unceremoniously dumped with the trash, IMHO. And in case of conspiracy we should have held him on ice for a while first for forensics.

No, you miss the point entirely, the respect shown is because you, not him, are respectful (and therefore worthy of respect yourself). Otherwise you are no better than him. What he deserves is neither here nor there, who gets what they deserve in this life anyway? and more importantly who are you to judge? Proper treatment is given because, unlike him, you act properly. This is exactly the right message to send.

[tater]

No, you miss the point entirely, the respect shown is because you, not him, are respectful (and therefore worthy of respect yourself). Otherwise you are no better than him. What he deserves is neither here nor there, who gets what they deserve in this life anyway? and more importantly who are you to judge? Proper treatment is given because, unlike him, you act properly. This is exactly the right message to send.

Dumping him with the trash IS proper treatment. He was trash, treat him like trash. Were he a peaceful man, then treating him properly would make sense. Were he even an honorable foe, ditto.

Why, pray tell, does religion deserve any particular respect? Your argument is predicated on this being so. This particular POS has quoted his holy book (accurately, I might add) so often, we well know his theological views. Giving his views respect is an implicit statement that his views deserve respect.

They don't.

[tater]

repeating it 4 (four) times means being a brainless creature, no matter how similar these two words are.

Unless her teleprompter was spitting out Obama each time. I'll ask my brother in law, he used to be a copy editor at a newspaper here. I wonder if they have the auto-spell set to use "Obama" to avoid the rest of the year when the news is filled with "Obama" and they don't want to make the mistake of calling him "Osama."

It would be interesting to look at how often "Obama" appears in the news on average (he's President, after all, so quite a bit), and how often the "OSama" typo has occurred vs the Obama in place of Osama when OBL is in the news.

Perhaps the news media would have been better served to use the US government spelling, "Usama." (which is entirely acceptable, transliteration from arabic varies quite a bit).

Or she's an idiot. Still, I'd be willing to bet that the typo is far more likely when the news is about bin laden than when the news is about Obama.

[MH]

Dumping him with the trash IS proper treatment. He was trash, treat him like trash. Were he a peaceful man, then treating him properly would make sense. Were he even an honorable foe, ditto.

Why, pray tell, does religion deserve any particular respect? Your argument is predicated on this being so. This particular POS has quoted his holy book (accurately, I might add) so often, we well know his theological views. Giving his views respect is an implicit statement that his views deserve respect.

They don't.

It was just about not pissing off even more the ones that are already pissed.
Maybe also giving chance to express positive view from some governments and groups in ME that actually never came.
Politcs.

[MaddogK]

The WH's bumbling of the press releases will piss off more peeps than their silence would've.

http://www.debka.com/article/20902/

Obama's need for a feather in his cap is at the heart of this. He REALLY wants to get re-elected but his admin's big mouth will likely get more people killed.

[tater]

Trying to please muslims is frankly idiotic. We should simply stop.

What do you have to do NOT to raise muslim ire, exactly? Denmark gives money to Palestinians, they are pretty innocuous, yet in order to please muslims what would they have to do? Violate their own laws and censor cartoons. Basically, to please muslims you need to eliminate everything about your culture that is different from theirs.

Screw that. They can do what they want at home, but we should not bend over backwards to keep them from getting butt hurt about nothing. If a US sailor would have been slid off (not gently lowered), that's what he should have gotten. No difference, no special treatment. I think given that they'd KNOW people would claim there was no kill, they should have kept the body on ice, and even arranged viewings by various people as proof. Screw this 24 hour muslim burial crap. If we killed a murderer here in the states and there was any legal stuff we thought might continue, he'd stay in the morgue for a while.

OBL got special treatment and should not have.

[Sammi79]

Dumping him with the trash IS proper treatment. He was trash, treat him like trash. Were he a peaceful man, then treating him properly would make sense. Were he even an honorable foe, ditto.

Why, pray tell, does religion deserve any particular respect? Your argument is predicated on this being so. This particular POS has quoted his holy book (accurately, I might add) so often, we well know his theological views. Giving his views respect is an implicit statement that his views deserve respect.

They don't.

No, you miss the point entirely, the respect shown is because you, not him, are respectful (and therefore worthy of respect yourself). Otherwise you are no better than him. What he deserves is neither here nor there, who gets what they deserve in this life anyway? and more importantly who are you to judge? Proper treatment is given because, unlike him, you act properly. This is exactly the right message to send.

please read again in yellow ^

:haha: I personally do not subscribe to any religion and fail to see how my argument relates to it in any way. IMHO religion should be globally outlawed period but that's another argument altogether. I'm glad Obama&co understand my point, were they to act as you seem to think they should have done, all that would done is reinforce the feeling that we westerners are the animals these nutjobs say we are. No, I am actually really impressed at the actions and words of the soldiers and their leaders who performed this operation. And Tater, you should be proud of this! It clearly shows your nations better qualities.

[TLAM Strike]

To be fair to all the "speaking" media (vs print), the two names are so nearly identical, it's gotta be a really easy mistake to make. I don't think it shows bias, etc, I think it's just too easy to make a mistake.

In terms of print media, I imagine some spell checkers are set to correct anything close to "Obama" to avoid accidentally putting Osama there by mistake.

Naw I has to be intentional at some level. Obama is the POTUS's last name while (unless Arabs make their names like the Chinese or soming) Osama is OBL's first name.

Its not really appropate for a serrious news outlet to be refering to the subject of a story only by his first name.

[tater]

I read it.

Your statement presupposes a secular country needs to engage in religious ceremony (period, much less for a war criminal).

IMO doing anything you'd not do for anyone else, is not "proper." If a muslim sailor died in ww2 on a ship, he had a flag draped, and was slid off the side like anyone else. If that was good enough for a ww2 sailor, it's more than good enough for OBL. In this case they gently lowered him into the water, unlike what was done with thousands of US sailors in the past.

If ANY other criminal would have been put in the morgue instead of rushed to burial within 24 hours, then OBL certainly should have. There was ZERO reason to bury him quickly, and many reasons to hold the carcass until we'd made sure everyone believed his death.

The doesn't destroy forensic evidence quickly in any other case. they did here. It was wrong.

[tater]

Naw I has to be intentional at some level. Obama is the POTUS's last name while (unless Arabs make their names like the Chinese or soming) Osama is OBL's first name.

Its not really appropate for a serrious news outlet to be refering to the subject of a story only by his first name.

Yeah, they'd do better to use "Mr. Obama" to refer tot he president, and "Bin Laden" for OBL. I think it's sloppiness.

Sort of unrelated, but have you hard of the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect?

[August]

I hear there's a new drink going around. It's called the Osama. It's two shots and a splash. :D

[tater]

BTW, regarding "proper," what is the proper funeral practice for, say, an avowed Catholic who was in fact an unrepentant mass murderer? Do christian churches deny religious services ever based on the actions of the deceased?

Since Islam doesn't have a clergy, per se, what is their thought on the matter? "Proper" in US terms would therefore likely be to not give a religious burial to an unrepentant criminal.

Given he was not a Muslim according to any muslim that holds with the "hijacking Islam" meme, should he in fact not have been given a muslim burial since he was an apostate?

It really does come to theology as soon as you have a religious burial. Apostates don't get a proper burial, muslims do. You give him one, and you are de facto saying he's not an apostate.

On top of that, only supporters would care, right? Would a "moderate" muslim care how a mass murderer (and apostate) was buried?

Better to avoid the problem with an entirely secular burial. "we commit this body to the deep." <SPLASH> No washing it, no with sheet. Zip it in the bag, and dump.

A quick google shows that suicides, notorious unrepentant sinners, etc should be denied Christian services. Also, for Islam, "Apostates are denied a decent burial after their deaths, and the Muslims who participate in killing them are promised an eternal reward in paradise." Seems like if anyone actually believes Islam was hijacked they could easily label OBL an apostate, and claim he was denied burial for that reason. That would be entirely "proper." In fact, if he DID hijack Islam, then the only proper muslim burial would in fact be to DENY him muslim burial.

So giving him his muslim burial should in fact outrage moderates (who must think he is an apostate, else I don't think they are "moderate"), and only please islamists.

Again, better for a secular state to simply ignore the religion of her enemies in burial entirely.

[TLAM Strike]

Yeah, they'd do better to use "Mr. Obama" to refer tot he president, and "Bin Laden" for OBL. I think it's sloppiness.

Sort of unrelated, but have you hard of the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect?

No I never heard of it but I just googled it. Good point.

[krashkart]

I hear there's a new drink going around. It's called the Osama. It's two shots and a splash. :D


Only one of it's kind in the entire world. :yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

Yeah, they'd do better to use "Mr. Obama" to refer tot he president, and "Bin Laden" for OBL. I think it's sloppiness.
Osama Obama bin Pajama?

[Sammi79]

I read it.

Your statement presupposes a secular country needs to engage in religious ceremony (period, much less for a war criminal).

As an atheist my statement is about morality, not religion.


IMO doing anything you'd not do for anyone else, is not "proper." If a muslim sailor died in ww2 on a ship, he had a flag draped, and was slid off the side like anyone else. If that was good enough for a ww2 sailor, it's more than good enough for OBL. In this case they gently lowered him into the water, unlike what was done with thousands of US sailors in the past.

If ANY other criminal would have been put in the morgue instead of rushed to burial within 24 hours, then OBL certainly should have. There was ZERO reason to bury him quickly, and many reasons to hold the carcass until we'd made sure everyone believed his death.

The doesn't destroy forensic evidence quickly in any other case. they did here. It was wrong.

:yeah: Now all of this I can agree with, I don't care one way or another what respects were shown as long as respect was shown. And yes I do think it slightly strange that it was done so quickly. On the other hand if they didn't kill Osama and it is some kind of staged propaganda, it would be easy for him to deny the fact that he is dead. Maybe they feared that to keep his body would prompt threats and/or demands from groups or nations who were sympathetic to his cause.

[Growler]

Only one of it's kind in the entire world. :yeah:

Takes ten years to make, but it sure goes down easy, and with none of that funky aftertaste.

[Biggles]

Takes ten years to make, but it sure goes down easy, and with none of that funky aftertaste.

But it will probably result in one helluva hangover...

[Jimbuna]

Just give thanks the Seals were more compitent than their politicians....If the US government couldn't keep Megatron under the sea, what hope do they have with Bin Laden?

[tater]

As an atheist my statement is about morality, not religion.



:yeah: Now all of this I can agree with, I don't care one way or another what respects were shown as long as respect was shown. And yes I do think it slightly strange that it was done so quickly. On the other hand if they didn't kill Osama and it is some kind of staged propaganda, it would be easy for him to deny the fact that he is dead. Maybe they feared that to keep his body would prompt threats and/or demands from groups or nations who were sympathetic to his cause.

I'm also an atheist, for the record.

The reason it was done quickly was Islamic law requires burial ASAP, within 24 hours, or even before that very sunset. Hence the "rush."

At a certain level, I'm fine with "respect," defined as not mutilating the carcass, etc. Forensics (full autopsy, etc) do not count as mutilation. A religious service, OTOH, is going too far in the other direction—particularly since him acting outside of Islam (the narrative for both Bush and Obama) pretty much casts OBL as an apostate. If so, "proper" muslim burial would in fact require NOT giving him a muslim burial.

Right now everyone should be pissed off. The AQ supporters would be anyone complaining that he didn't get a muslim burial because he was buried at sea. Anyone who is truly moderate and considers Islam actually "hijacked" by AQ should think him an apostate and should be pissed that they bothered to even try to give him a muslim burial.

[geetrue]

I think bin Laden was arrested while in Pakistan and released on bail (bribe that is).

He made several trips in disguise from the compound reported by people left behind. Plus he had black hair dye in his bathroom for vanity, but yet no one knew he was there ...

Did you see where he had a fondness for Coke Cola and Pepsi having cases delivered in bulk to the compound.

All these years the intelligence was that Laden had some kind of problem and that he walked with a cane yet all of the medicine on his dresser was for common ills.

A tall man was seen walking and exercising in the compound by satellite. That man didn't need a cane.

A lot more information to come ... :yep:

[tater]

No Osama death photos.

So the only images we have are of Obama, et al watching in the situation room. Cause it's about, you know, Obama.

There needs to be a FOIA request made. Sorry, but people have seen the images, if my employees in congress have seen it, why not ME?

Apparently a FOIA suit would likely win, too. The administration would literally have to contend that they were protecting the privacy of the bin Laden family to even fight it.

Gang that can't shoot straight strikes again. Apparently the sea burial has been planned for a long time should OBL be found, but no one thought about the requisite images for proof?

[Skybird]

Obama rules no photographic evidence for the claim that Osama was killed shall be published.

Very big mistake, no matter whether sentimental piety or inappropriate respect for precious Muslim sentiments is the reason. That Obama is a bit dumb on Islamic issues and pays respect were nop repsect is deserved, we know since his Cairo speech at the latest. But this mistake now he will feel. It will haunt the US.

Some of us may believe but none of us knows whether Osama got killed two nights ago, or not. We only know that it would be of opportunistic use for Obama's administration if the claim would be believed.

Very very big mistake.

[MaddogK]

Interesting- CIA denies capturing then killing Bin Laden, AND taking OBL's son on chopper.[/URL]
[URL]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42898456#42898456 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42898456#42898456)

:hmmm:

[Freiwillige]

This thing has been haywire from the beginning. First he was armed and fought and used a woman as a shield, then he was unarmed and did not use a woman as a shield. If he was unarmed why couldn't they capture him alive???

I think he was probably armed and fought back they just don't want to sell that image because it makes him look like more of a martyr to his people, hence the story change.

And also if we can see images of be-heading's and people falling to their death on 9-11 repeatedly why cant we see this ass with a well deserved .223 lobotomy? :hmmm:

[krashkart]

By golly, this is shaping up to be a real mess, isn't it? The conspiracy theories will definitely live on for many generations after this. :haha:

Sure wish the White House would make up their minds and settle on one solid account of what really happened. :88)

[tater]

This has been planned for months, and they didn't think to have a media plan in place?

I think he was unarmed, actually. I think the story was fragmented at first, different people latching onto different things instead of simply waiting on an after action report. Everything about the way the administration has handled this has been ham-fisted.

[Dowly]

By golly, this is shaping up to be a real mess, isn't it? The conspiracy theories will definitely live on for many generations after this. :haha:

Sure wish the White House would make up their minds and settle on one solid account of what really happened. :88)

Indeed. Why the sudden change of story? That's what fuels the conspiracy nuts. Like with 9/11, small details changed over time and conspiracy guys jumped right at them.

Just release the video of the raid, or atleast the photo. There's no sense in keeping them so to not piss of the muslims. Osama's supporters are already pissed I would think. :hmmm:

[tater]

It's gonna come out anyway. Congress critters have seen them, an FOIA will happen.

[Randomizer]

I seem to recall the huge outcry from Western media (and some on these very forums) when Al Jazeera and others repeatedly published images of butchered Americans who were shot, their bodies burned and then hung from a bridge by Islamist insurgents.

Seems like some trophy photos are ok depending only upon who the victim is and who did the killing. Succumbing to such hypocracy is prevelent on Internet forums but should be avoided as goverment policy as far too much is at stake.

Publishing the money shots lowers America to the level of the extremists, keeping them out of the media is entirely the correct thing to do.

Conspiracy nut jobs and the tinfoil hat crowd will believe whatever they want to believe regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary so the claims that photo proof must be in the public domain is bogus and just aims at the sensational.

Bin Laden's execution was a fine piece of work, the US government should not adapt the media feeding frenzy that has become the jihadist stock and trade.

[August]

http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/

I don't know how true any of this is but if so it's downright scary:

The president had been instructed by Jarrett to inform Mr., Panetta that he would have sole discretion to act against the Osama Bin Laden compound. Jarrett believed this would further delay Panetta from acting, as the responsibility for failure would then fall almost entirely on him. What Valerie Jarrett, and the president, did not know is that Leon Panetta had already initiated a program that reported to him –and only him, involving a covert on the ground attack against the compound. Basically, the whole damn operation was already ready to go – including the specific team support Intel necessary to engage the enemy within hours of being given notice. Panetta then made plans to proceed with an on-ground assault.

This information reached either Hillary Clinton or Robert Gates first (likely via military contacts directly associated with the impending mission) who then informed the other. Those two then met with Panetta, who informed each of them he had been given the authority by the president to proceed with a mission if the opportunity presented itself. Both Gates and Clinton warned Panetta of the implications of that authority – namely he was possibly being made into a scapegoat. Panetta admitted that possibility, but felt the opportunity to get Bin Laden outweighed that risk. During that meeting, Hillary Clinton was first to pledge her full support for Panetta, indicating she would defend him if necessary. Similar support was then followed by Gates.

The following day, and with Panetta’s permission, Clinton met in private with Bill Daley and urged him to get the president’s full and open approval of the Panetta plan. Daley agreed such approval would be of great benefit to the action, and instructed Clinton to delay proceeding until he had secured that approval. Daley contacted Clinton within hours of their meeting indicating Jarrett refused to allow the president to give that approval. Daley then informed Clinton that he too would fully support Panetta in his actions, even if it meant disclosing the president’s indecision to the American public should that action fail to produce a successful conclusion. Clinton took that message back to Panetta and the CIA director initiated the 48 hour engagement order.

At this point, the President of the United States was not informed of the engagement order – it did not originate from him, and for several hours after the order had been given and the special ops forces were preparing for action into Pakistan from their position in Afghanistan, Daley successfully kept Obama and Jarrett insulated from that order.

[tater]

We're not talking about a butchered corpse. It's proof that he is dead given an insane following known to believe crazy conspiracies. Hitler's body was not to be had, so there were conspiracies about him as well. It's an entirely different situation.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/photos-show-three-dead-men-bin-laden-raid-194758961.html

BTW, the dead guy in this photo was at least armed with a squirt gun.

[Jimbuna]

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8555/binlid.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/binlid.jpg/)

[flatsixes]

I'm no fan of Obama, but as an American it pains me this thing starting to slip away from the administration. I know that the demands of media require that the story get out there before it's been fully vetted and scripted, but this one was too big to have been put out half-baked.

Day 1: "Ladies and gentlemen, bin Laden is dead. That's all we have at the moment."
Day 2: "Yep. He's still dead, but I can't give you the details just yet."

Days 3 through 21: See Day 2.

Day 22; "Osama who?"

[tater]

That stuff august pointed to is indeed crazy. It would explain the administration being caught flat-footed on what to say, when they should have has everything "in the can" before the trigger was even pulled.

[krashkart]

http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/

I don't know how true any of this is but if so it's downright scary:


I read about something similar that happened during the JFK administration. I think it was regarding an attempt on the life of the then-president of South Vietnam. JFK didn't know what was going on until after the fact -- and once he found out he was really, really upset about it. His staff had managed to get his approval over the phone without actually telling him what they were up to. Sneaky buggers. :doh:

[heartc]

Obama rules no photographic evidence for the claim that Osama was killed shall be published.

Very big mistake, no matter whether sentimental piety or inappropriate respect for precious Muslim sentiments is the reason. That Obama is a bit dumb on Islamic issues and pays respect were nop repsect is deserved, we know since his Cairo speech at the latest. But this mistake now he will feel. It will haunt the US.

Some of us may believe but none of us knows whether Osama got killed two nights ago, or not. We only know that it would be of opportunistic use for Obama's administration if the claim would be believed.

Very very big mistake.

I agree with Skybird here, as far as the PR are concerned.
I just don't get it. It's like they are TRYING to feed the nuts. First, drop him overboard within hours, then don't produce any pictures to the public. WTF?
And what's all this talk about "proper muslim burial" etc. when the official line has been all along that he is *not* representative of Islam and rather a perversion of it? Why then treat his body like he was a holy man?? Wtf is this ----. Totally unnecessary. And remember: When Saddam was captured, and then later on killed, the "Arab street" needed those pictures to see that things had indeed happened.
Otherwise, for all the nuts, foreign and domestic, it's "pics or it didn't happen". Not that the hardliners would take a picture for proof, what's with photoshop etc, but for "the man on the street", you would still minimize the conspiracy ---- a lot more.

Actually, as of now, the only thing that keeps the conspiracy theorists from gaining wide-spread approval is the fact that Al-Quaida themselves have pretty much confirmed the death of the dear leader. At least I didn't yet hear any opposite claims, and they are threatening revenge etc. But if the US keeps handling the PR like this, they (the bad guys) themselves might get doubts about it and change the party line lol.

What a ---- up. PR-wise.

[mookiemookie]

I seem to recall the huge outcry from Western media (and some on these very forums) when Al Jazeera and others repeatedly published images of butchered Americans who were shot, their bodies burned and then hung from a bridge by Islamist insurgents.

I don't think the outrage was over the photos per se, but the fact that the Americans were butchered, mutilated and hung. It was the act, not the depiction of the act that got people riled up.

[Madox58]

Indeed. Why the sudden change of story? That's what fuels the conspiracy nuts.

There was a UFO captured at Roswell.
No! It was a weather balloon.
What about the bodies?
Oh, those were only dummies.

How do you keep the population occupied?
Throw a heaping bunch of BS in a pot and let the Media stir it for awhile.

That takes attention away from REAL problems.

[Dowly]

There was a UFO captured at Roswell.
No! It was a weather balloon.
What about the bodies?
Oh, those were only dummies.

How do you keep the population occupied?
Throw a heaping bunch of BS in a pot and let the Media stir it for awhile.

That takes attention away from REAL problems.

You are quite right there, Sir. :yep:

I just don't understand it in this particular case. Osama wasn't the "snake's head", so why on earth keep the secrecy. :-?

--------------------------------

On another note, it's amazing how many fake "osama dead photos" there are out there, I've counted 4 so far. :doh: And some of them are viruses, so don't open the stuff.
Oh, and one of them is a picture of a nightivision view of a US soldier kneelin over "headshot Osama", it's fake too.

Just to keep you awake, lots of viruses going around with "The Real Osama Dead Picture" etc. as title.

It'll leak sooner or later to one of the gore sites, I'm sure.

[tater]

I'm an anti-conspiracy person. I'm also not trying to make the Obama admin out to be idiots—but they are making it impossible not to.

Obama is not going to release images of Osama. Of course a few years ago he was all for releasing thousands more images of prisoner abuse from Abu Ghraib. The abuse happened, and there were prosecutions over it. Showing more after that would have no effect other than to stir up anti-americanism, and in fact humiliate the victims more (the principal complaint was that the victims were humiliated—it would be as if the reaction to a perp taking hidden camera pics of victims on the toilet was to publish more pictures...).

Just put the damn conspiracies out of our collective misery and release the pics—vid too. Just do it already.

[tater]

Krauthammer's spot-on take:

The only reason we took the risky operation was to present proof of death. It was not to give him a chance of surrender. Protecting him as a prisoner would have been a catastrophe. And it’s inconceivable that any administration would have offered it as an option.

Reaching for his gun — I’m not sure I buy it. They ought to release a picture. The Middle East is a place where conspiracies live. This summer there were shark attacks in the Red Sea. The Egyptian press blamed it on the Israelis.

You have to show a picture. That was the whole point of the operation: proof of death. Do it now and don’t dither.

[tater]

Indians (native americans) pretty POed about Bin Laden's code name, Geronimo.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/onondaga_nation_leaders_blast.html

Remember all the flack Bush got for using the word "crusade?" Doubt this will have media legs as the president is not of the right party for them to care.

They should've used "tango" as a nod to South Park :)

[Ducimus]

They should've used "tango" as a nod to South Park :)

Which in itself was a nod to Call of Duty Modern Warfare 1 and 2 if im not mistaken.

[tater]

Which in itself was a nod to Call of Duty Modern Warfare 1 and 2 if im not mistaken.

Got me, never played that :)

[Platapus]

Also the series Rainbow Six used that term.

[Randomizer]

I don't think the outrage was over the photos per se, but the fact that the Americans were butchered, mutilated and hung. It was the act, not the depiction of the act that got people riled up.
I recall that there was considerable anger over the publishing of the graphic still pictures and videos from this act that filled the airwaves but could be mistaken. So many horrific pictures and events out there, it's easy to have memories of different incidents merge and certainly possible that recollections of the event have been skewed.

Still believe however that trumpeting imagery of the death of bin Laden would be counter-productive and should be avoided. I have no problem with Americans gloating over his death but think that the country's long-term interests are best served doing so behind closed doors or at least without the need for "film at 11".

The reality probably would not live up to expectations anyway:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/osama-bin-laden-killed-while-sitting-on-toilet-nat,20302/

[TorpX]

Codename for UBL: COCKROACH



On a more serious note, Obama needs to release pics or vids, otherwise it will be a whole Hitler isn't dead thing. The Islamists need to see his body, I don't care if it makes them mad or not. If they're enraged enough to jump out of their holes, it will be easier to kill them.

Also, they should have taken at least one prisoner for intel. The women should have been taken into custody too. Even if they are clueless, they could say how long UBL has been there, who the runners were, did they have visitors from Pak. gov't, where they were before, etc. These things would be worth knowing. They should have kept the news about the hard drives under wraps. I can't believe there were no weapons in the house; they might have been taken away. It sounds like UBL was very complacent, doesn't it?

I don't know if the article about Panetta is true or not, but alas, it sounds plausible. There will be some interesting books coming out about this in time.

[krashkart]

Codename for UBL: COCKROACH

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=4180

Even Milquetoast is appalled... :O:

[tater]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

There was no live video during the raid for 25 minutes once they entered the compound.

Jesus, jumping Christ. Seriously, WTF is the matter with these idiots. Part of me likes them looking stupid, domestically---8212;I want to make fun of Obama, but internationally? No. It's like making fun of your sister---8212;you can do it, but if some guy outside the family does, and you break his nose.

These morons are making all of us look like idiots.

[Armistead]

Indians (native americans) pretty POed about Bin Laden's code name, Geronimo.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/onondaga_nation_leaders_blast.html

Remember all the flack Bush got for using the word "crusade?" Doubt this will have media legs as the president is not of the right party for them to care.

They should've used "tango" as a nod to South Park :)


Who could blame them, a great american indian warrior. That was a bad mistake from a man that should know how to be sensitive to such issues.

We'll have no clue, except a bunch of misleading info. Osama could be under a mountain in a lab having his brain poked on. Hard to believe no active night vision cameras... We never get truth on these matters until years later. I think it shows they're going back and forth until they can figure out the correct policy. Be the same for any other admin, except if Bush had got lucky and got him he would've been dancing around a maypole with Osama's head screaming mission accomplished.

[razark]

Jesus, jumping Christ. Seriously, WTF is the matter with these idiots.
Two reactions:
A. Sometimes my internet cuts out, even when I'm not transmitting a radio signal across the world.
B. Maybe they're trying to avoid people asking for the video?

Mr Panetta also revealed that the US Navy Seals made the final decision to kill bin Laden rather than the president.That sentence reads a bit odd. Or did they give the Seals a choice?

[Armistead]

Codename for UBL: COCKROACH



On a more serious note, Obama needs to release pics or vids, otherwise it will be a whole Hitler isn't dead thing. The Islamists need to see his body, I don't care if it makes them mad or not. If they're enraged enough to jump out of their holes, it will be easier to kill them.

Also, they should have taken at least one prisoner for intel. The women should have been taken into custody too. Even if they are clueless, they could say how long UBL has been there, who the runners were, did they have visitors from Pak. gov't, where they were before, etc. These things would be worth knowing. They should have kept the news about the hard drives under wraps. I can't believe there were no weapons in the house; they might have been taken away. It sounds like UBL was very complacent, doesn't it?

I don't know if the article about Panetta is true or not, but alas, it sounds plausible. There will be some interesting books coming out about this in time.


Books, just wait for the next video games. They've made a fortune off these wars, nothing like new material. We'll all be shooting Osama by fall.

[Madox58]

You could have called him any code name you like and someone would bitch!

If you said GayLord down?
The Gays would bitch!

If you said BlackLord down?
The Blacks would bitch!

Let them bitch I say!
If that is all they have to cry about?
They are not looking at things right and just bitching for attention.

And of course the Media will do several hours of nonsense covering the Cry Babies.

[Ducimus]

They should have made an airtight, carefully crafted statement after any after action reports, the first time around. Now their (our) integrity is compromised by the backpeddeling and correcting. So now, nobody will believe a damn thing they say.

[MaddogK]

Mr Panetta also revealed that the US Navy Seals made the final decision to kill bin Laden rather than the president.

:har:
Classic- Obama admin throws yet another group under the bus, this time seals.

Now I don't feel so bad about posting all that birther nonsense. Controversy seems to follow Barry no matter where/what he does. I kinda wonder if he really does have our launch codes, or does 'big Joe'.


:cool:

[Torplexed]

Geez. Leave it to Obama to extract defeat from the jaws of victory, without losing a super-secret helicopter. :dead:

[Onkel Neal]

You could have called him any code name you like and someone would bitch!

If you said GayLord down?
The Gays would bitch!

If you said BlackLord down?
The Blacks would bitch!

Let them bitch I say!
If that is all they have to cry about?
They are not looking at things right and just bitching for attention.

And of course the Media will do several hours of nonsense covering the Cry Babies.


Just think, if they had codenamed him "Crybaby", the whole world would erupt :)

[Madox58]

There's nothing Super Secret about it.
Those silent Black Choppers have been around for years now.

[mookiemookie]

Geez. Leave it to Obama to extract defeat from the jaws of victory, without losing a super-secret helicopter. :dead:

I think the average American voter isn't going to care about the minute details of who authorized what, what helmet cam was functioning or not, etc. etc. They're going to care that the son of a bitch is dead, and it doesn't matter how it was done. Just my opinion of course.

[Madox58]

Just think, if they had codenamed him "Crybaby", the whole world would erupt :)
Would have been really cool if they called him...



What for it!.....................



SUBSIM!!

:har:

[Torplexed]

My cynical theory at this point is that Obama will keep to his high road of not releasing the photos, and yet they'll be somehow leaked anyway. He has moral superiority cake and eats it too.

[krashkart]

I think the average American voter isn't going to care about the minute details of who authorized what, what helmet cam was functioning or not, etc. etc. They're going to care that the son of a bitch is dead, and it doesn't matter how it was done. Just my opinion of course.

Probably closer to truth than anything I've read in the news all day. :lol:


Edit:

My cynical theory at this point is that Obama will keep to his high road of not releasing the photos, and yet they'll be somehow leaked anyway. He has moral superiority cake and eats it too.

And this, too. Preserved for all posterior... -erity... no, prosperi... ehm, posterity.

[razark]

My cynical theory at this point is that Obama will keep to his high road of not releasing the photos, and yet they'll be somehow leaked anyway. He has moral superiority cake and eats it too.
Wikileaks?

[Torplexed]

Wikileaks?

Right after the Navy Seals raid Julian Assange's hotel room. :D

[August]

My cynical theory at this point is that Obama will keep to his high road of not releasing the photos, and yet they'll be somehow leaked anyway. He has moral superiority cake and eats it too.

Leaked? Nah, I'll bet there are a dozen Freedom of Information Act applications in the mail already.

[TLAM Strike]

Which in itself was a nod to Call of Duty Modern Warfare 1 and 2 if im not mistaken.

Also the series Rainbow Six used that term.
Its also used IRL. Tango means "Target". The Brits at one time used the term "X-Ray" but switched to "Tango" at some point.

http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/

I don't know how true any of this is but if so it's downright scary:
In the space of a day this changed from Patriot Games to Clear and Present Danger. :haha:

[krashkart]

Right after the Navy Seals raid Julian Assange's hotel room. :D


Imagine that story leaked through Wikileaks. :D

[Growler]

My cynical theory at this point is that Obama will keep to his high road of not releasing the photos, and yet they'll be somehow leaked anyway. He has moral superiority cake and eats it too.

Get cracking. The United States is depending on you.:D

[Ducimus]

Its also used IRL. Tango means "Target". The Brits at one time used the term "X-Ray" but switched to "Tango" at some point.


I figured Tango meant target. Tango is part of the phonetic alphabet after all. I didn't want to assume it was term used in the real world because i saw it used in a video game. A better assumption was the game designers made it up because it "sounds military".

[tater]

Two reactions:
A. Sometimes my internet cuts out, even when I'm not transmitting a radio signal across the world.
B. Maybe they're trying to avoid people asking for the video?


I have no issue with them in a LOS condition, that's just life. My issue is with how the administration painted the picture. They show a pic of the situation room, and make it look like they were watching, then everyone and his uncle makes statements about what went down (human shield, firefight, armed, etc, ad nauseum), THEN they all backpedal because all the stuff they were talking about... they didn't actually see.

So I was not complaining about the loss of signal, just the fact that they didn't tell everyone this up front.

Had they said, "we missed the actual raid live due to signal issues from within the compound, so anything we say might later be corrected by the after-action report" then all this backpedaling would look fine. As it is, they speak with certainty, then change the story with certainty.

Looks sloppy.

[Madox58]

Time Warner Cable is not all it's cracked up to be.
:haha:

[Armistead]

They should have made an airtight, carefully crafted statement after any after action reports, the first time around. Now their (our) integrity is compromised by the backpeddeling and correcting. So now, nobody will believe a damn thing they say.

This could all be smoke and mirrors. Back and forth to hide the truth.
This is a common government game. Spread a few news rumors and let them confuse everything.

The real truth.. In Yemen, KSM and friends are probably saying.

"Least Osama is dead, he can say nothing."

But under some mountain some CIA interrogator is saying.

"Up the voltage on the left testicle and bring in the cloned pig, he's starting to talk."


Remember, the misinformation usually isn't intended for just us...How do you think they've kept those aliens hid in area 51 all these years.....

[razark]

I have no issue with them in a LOS condition, that's just life. My issue is with how the administration painted the picture...

Looks sloppy.
Ah. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I agree that this has been handled very badly. The administration should have put out the statement Sunday night, given a few firm details, and said "We'll give you more details later." They should have had three or four statements prepared to cover a variety of outcomes, given the appropriate one Sunday, and then given the details once they had a firm picture of what happened, and what was releasable.

They would have come off looking a lot better. They would have looked like they knew what was going on, and went in with a plan. As it is, they really seem like they fumbled around and got lucky.

The end result is the same, Osama is dead. The PR could use some work, though.

[geetrue]

http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/

I don't know how true any of this is but if so it's downright scary:

I wonder too about how true this is too.

All of the news stations reported that Obama gave the order for the attack plan to proceed on Friday before he left with his family to see the tornado disaster in Alabama on his way to the see the shuttle launch.

I remember Obama's reluctance to take out the pirates and the many delayed comments of other problems in the world, but not this one.

He wanted OBL bad plus he had instructed everyone to go after him as soon as he became president.

Rambo Obama was the winner :yep:

[Freiwillige]

I wonder too about how true this is too.

All of the news stations reported that Obama gave the order for the attack plan to proceed on Friday before he left with his family to see the tornado disaster in Alabama on his way to the see the shuttle launch.

I remember Obama's reluctance to take out the pirates and the many delayed comments of other problems in the world, but not this one.

He wanted OBL bad plus he had instructed everyone to go after him as soon as he became president.

Rambo Obama was the winner :yep:

Or that's the after story spin? Truth is we will never know.

[krashkart]

The Dalai Lama weighs in:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/04/135987717/a-symbol-of-compassion-dalai-lama-hints-bin-ladens-killing-was-justified?sc=tw

[AdeptCharge]

I figured Tango meant target. Tango is part of the phonetic alphabet after all. I didn't want to assume it was term used in the real world A-Hem, No you are incorrect, you did assume and do not specify clearly, if I may, Tango Is a (word) used within in the phonetic alphabet, to wit - a word with various terms ie form of dance, can be used in verbal altercation etc

[TorpX]

Or that's the after story spin? Truth is we will never know.

I think we will have a good idea when the leaks start. There will be quite a few people who have relevent facts about this. It will be hard to shut everyone up. If we find out there was good intel that UBL was there, well before the raid, this will show Obama dithered. There would be no good reason for delay, and a high risk he would move to another location, and the oportunity lost. It's not like it would take the SEALs weeks to figure out how to assault a building.

[Onkel Neal]

Like clockwork, the SEALs "stacked" at the main house's doors prepared to enter the building to find their ultimate target. But they had miscalculated the strength of the building's reinforced doors, costing them precious time, presenting the enemy hiding inside with an opportunity. Grenades flew through the house's windows, peppering much of the strike team with shrapnel.


http://www.slate.com/id/2293022/

This is why I tip my hat to a President I hope has only 19 months left in office.

[joegrundman]

i see you americans have stopped firing your AK47's into the air in celebration and have got back to jabbing your fingers in each other's faces.

[krashkart]

i see you americans have stopped firing your AK47's into the air in celebration and have got back to jabbing your fingers in each other's faces.


Troll! :O:


What's your favorite beer? Got a case of Miller Light here with your name on it.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=2561


No offense intended, Joe. :salute:

[joegrundman]

Haha! great response!

[Capt. Morgan]

Not a snowballs chance:nope:. I'm with Platapus (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1656130&postcount=309) on this one.

They took lots of time to plan this. His execution was staged with a prepared - non lethal weapon. The only witness, his wife, was freshly kneecapped so she wouldn't have been paying too much attention to the details.

They've hauled his ass off with all the hard-drives and documents and he's presently the CIA's guest for the remainder of his life, however long or short it may be.

I just can't believe that they would pass up the opportunity to dissect his mind, especially since they have all the time in the world to do it, and a moral claim to do so.

No, I think bin Laden will need diapers and a dribble cup before the authorities are through with him.

As to the photos of his body, there is no possible way to determine if a digital image has been altered, so they would prove nothing either way.

[Dowly]

As to the photos of his body, there is no possible way to determine if a digital image has been altered, so they would prove nothing either way.

There's quite a few ways to determine that, actually. ;)

[Feuer Frei!]

Correct.
Either way though, no 'real' fotos will be released.
So we have to take their word for it.

[Capt. Morgan]

There's quite a few ways to determine that, actually. ;)

Possibly too off-topic (in which case PM me), but I'd be really interested in any links/info on how that is done.

[Feuer Frei!]

On a lighter note:
How to make an Osama Martini:

2 shots and a splash.

[Dowly]

Possibly too off-topic (in which case PM me), but I'd be really interested in any links/info on how that is done.

Lengthy, but should explain it. :O:
http://spie.org/x16032.xml?highlight=x2410&ArticleID=x16032

[Penguin]

Lengthy, but should explain it. :O:
http://spie.org/x16032.xml?highlight=x2410&ArticleID=x16032

good link :up:

For the fun side of it I can always recommend the site Photoshop Desasters. http://www.psdisasters.com/

[Skybird]

The use of superior ergonomic technology in the operation rooms allows Him to handle the operation all alone.

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-210618-galleryV9-mqtk.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-67617-8.html)
[Der Spiegel]



.
.
Said technology also allows him to watch the action from multiple angles simulatenously.
http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-210629-galleryV9-diov.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-67617-5.html)

[Torplexed]

Something tells me I won't have to study Dowly's link to determine if Skybird's Obama photos have been digitally altered. :D

[Jimbuna]

Got a feeling I may have posted this elsewhere but what the heck.

http://cheezcomixed.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/54dd4d92-3ec9-4d57-89c9-1e09ead33b04.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

:haha:

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't need to see photos. Really, if I was OBL I would get the old camcorder out and video myself laughing and pointing at the US for such a story that was whipped up. Silence of new video similiar to what we have seen since 9/11 is proof enough for me.

[tater]

Anyone who would be offended by an OBL death image I'm not at all concerned about. Bringing whack jobs out of the woodwork to be killed is in fact a good thing.

[August]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v60/flyfish/proof.jpg

[Skybird]

I don't need to see photos. Really, if I was OBL I would get the old camcorder out and video myself laughing and pointing at the US for such a story that was whipped up. Silence of new video similiar to what we have seen since 9/11 is proof enough for me.
If silence is the criterion, then Bin Laden has died already years ago.

[STEED]

Funny one jim. :har:

[Foxtrot]

According to unconfirmed reports, while Jack Nicholson was dining at the Wolseley Restaurant in London today, a photographer told him about the death of Osama Bin Laden. Jack responded with, "that's awful", and added "I warned him," but refused to elaborate....

By the way, was Osama ever been indicted by the US Department of Justice for anything related to 9/11?

[Bakkels]

According to unconfirmed reports, while Jack Nicholson was dining at the Wolseley Restaurant in London today, a photographer told him about the death of Osama Bin Laden. Jack responded with, "that's awful", and added "I warned him," but refused to elaborate....

By the way, was Osama ever been indicted by the US Department of Justice for anything related to 9/11?

Jack probably made the same mistake we've seen all over the news... Obama / Osama. I think he thought Obama died.
Or he was just messing with the photographer's mind.


...or Jack Nicholson is actually a terrorist, born in Yemen. Let's see that birth certificate "Jack"! :haha:

[vienna]

...or Jack Nicholson is actually a terrorist, born in Yemen. Let's see that birth certificate "Jack"! :haha:


You can't handle the truth!!!

[Capt. Morgan]

Lengthy, but should explain it. :O:
http://spie.org/x16032.xml?highlight=x2410&ArticleID=x16032

Much appreciated, thanks.

The use of superior ergonomic technology in the operation rooms allows Him to handle the operation all alone.

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-210618-galleryV9-mqtk.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-67617-8.html)
[Der Spiegel]


:har:
Too brilliant

[MH]

By ReutersTags:



Senior Pakistan official: U.S. shot bin Laden in cold blood

Pakistan's army, in its first comment since Monday's raid, threatened to halt cooperation with its military sponsor if the U.S. repeated what it called a violation of sovereignty.


A senior Pakistani security official said U.S. troops killed Osama bin Laden in "cold blood", fuelling a global controversy and straining a vital relationship Washington was trying to repair on Thursday.

And Pakistan's army, in its first comment since Monday's raid, threatened to halt cooperation with its military sponsor if it repeated what it called a violation of sovereignty.

But U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington was still anxious to maintain its alliance with Islamabad.

"It is not always an easy relationship. You know that," she said.

"But, on the other hand, it is a productive one for both our countries and we are going to continue to cooperate between our governments, our militaries, our law-enforcement agencies, but most importantly between the American and Pakistani people."

Americans are questioning how the al-Qaida leader could live for years in some comfort in a garrison town near the Pakistani capital. Some call for cutting billions of dollars in U.S. aid.

As Clinton was meeting European and Arab allies in Rome, Pakistan's Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Kayani, issued a statement saying any new U.S. raids would mean a possible end to cooperation with the Pentagon on security and intelligence.

"Any similar action violating the sovereignty of Pakistan will warrant a review on the level of military/intelligence cooperation with the United States," the army said.

And in a further sign of fractious relations between the allies, senior Pakistani security officials told Reuters that U.S. accounts had been misleading in describing a long gun battle at the compound in Abbottabad where bin Laden and four others were killed by an elite squad of U.S. Navy SEALs.

"It was cold-blooded," said one Pakistani official when asked if there was any exchange of fire. After an initial account of a 40-minute firefight, U.S. officials have now been quoted saying only one person fired at the raiding party, and that only briefly as the helicopter-borne assault team arrived.

A U.S. acknowledgment that bin Laden was unarmed when shot in the head -- as well as the disposal of his body at sea, a practice rare in Islam -- have drawn criticism from the Arab world and Europe, where some have warned of a backlash against the West, even among Muslims who reject Qaida's violence.
The White House has blamed the "fog of war" for its changing stories. Citing U.S. officials, NBC television said four of the five people killed, including bin Laden himself, were unarmed.

The New York Times quoted officials in the administration of President Barack Obama saying bin Laden's courier fired the only shots against the Americans, in the early stages of the raid, from a guesthouse in the sprawling, high-walled compound.

"I know for a fact that shots were exchanged during this operation," said one Pentagon official.

Another senior Pakistani security official said no shots were fired inside the building where bin Laden was found.

"The people inside the house were unarmed. There was no resistance," the official said.

The two Pakistani officials declined to describe the sources of their information but confirmed several people from the compound were detained.

Pakistan's GEO TV quoted military sources saying bin Laden's Yemeni-born wife told them the Saudi-born al-Qaida leader had lived in Abbottabad for five years but had never ventured out.

Photographs taken by a Pakistani security official about an hour after the assault show three dead men -- not including bin Laden -- lying in pools of blood. No weapons could be seen in the closely cropped images obtained by Reuters.

Washington has repeatedly defended its decision to kill bin Laden, though in fact foreign criticism of its failure to take him alive has not been heard in public from the leaders of its key allies in the battle against militant Islam.

..................

So they a looking for any opportunity to discredit US.


It would be easer to conduct politics with little green men.

[AVGWarhawk]

If silence is the criterion, then Bin Laden has died already years ago.


Not so, there have been tapes released since 9/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_and_audio_recordings_of_Osama_bin_Laden

[mookiemookie]

If Pakistan wants to make threats, I guess we can take our $1.5BN in foreign aid someplace else.

[Biggles]

.
.
Said technology also allows him to watch the action from multiple angles simulatenously.
http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-210629-galleryV9-diov.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-67617-5.html)

I friggin' lold.

[AVGWarhawk]

If Pakistan wants to make threats, I guess we can take our $1.5BN in foreign aid someplace else.

:03:

[AVGWarhawk]

A U.S. acknowledgment that bin Laden was unarmed when shot in the head -- as well as the disposal of his body at sea, a practice rare in Islam -- have drawn criticism from the Arab world and Europe, where some have warned of a backlash against the West, even among Muslims who reject Qaida's violence.



The world acknowledged that the people in the twin towers, PA cornfield and Pentagon were unarmed and killed. Bodies disposed...not sure...many not recovered. This had drawn criticism from the US world where some (a lot) said there will be a backlash against those that perpetrated this act. Even amongst the bible huggers who have guns and reject violence.



-shrugs-

[tater]

The rationale for not publishing is lousy. It's to avoid offending people who are not even Americans. Quite frankly, who cares what muslims think? Not my problem. It's exactly the same rationale not to publish "offensive" cartoons. It's ridiculous, and sets a terrible precedent.

[August]

You can't handle the truth!!!

If over acting were a crime Jack would be a world class terrorist.

[August]

Oh and being buried at sea officially makes Osama lower than whale poop! :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

The rationale for not publishing is lousy. It's to avoid offending people who are not even Americans. Quite frankly, who cares what muslims think? Not my problem. It's exactly the same rationale not to publish "offensive" cartoons. It's ridiculous, and sets a terrible precedent.

Releasing the photo only accomplishes placating the skeptical. It would serve no other purpose. The skeptical will still be skeptical of the photos as well. It is a waste of good bandwidth.

[vienna]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110505/ts_yblog_thelookout/debate-confusion-on-bin-laden-photos (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110505/ts_yblog_thelookout/debate-confusion-on-bin-laden-photos)


Meanwhile, three Republican senators yesterday said they'd seen the pictures--before walking back on those claims later in the day, raising the possibility that they had been duped by fake images on the Internet.
Sen. Scott Brown of Massachusetts told the cable station NECN (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/yblog_thelookout/ts_yblog_thelookout/storytext/debate-confusion-on-bin-laden-photos/41349914/SIG=12op517ig/*http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2011/05/brown_admits_he.html): "I have seen the photos." But later he told the station that he now understood the photos weren't authentic.

Sen. Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence committee, also claimed to reporters that he had seen the photos, before backing off in an email to The Ticket (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/news/yblog_thelookout/ts_yblog_thelookout/storytext/debate-confusion-on-bin-laden-photos/41349914/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110504/ts_yblog_theticket/sen-scott-brown-admits-to-being-duped-by-fake-bin-laden-photos). A spokeswoman blamed the slip on a "miscommunication."

And Sen. Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire told reporters (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/yblog_thelookout/ts_yblog_thelookout/storytext/debate-confusion-on-bin-laden-photos/41349914/SIG=133549nv6/*http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/newsstatenewengland/918113-227/ayotte-i-saw-photo-of-dead-bin.html): "I saw a photo of him deceased, the head area." But later she said in an email to The Ticket: "While I was shown a photo by another senator of what appeared to be a deceased Osama bin Laden, I do not know if it was authentic."



This is how so many various versions of "facts" come about; the press, in its fever to get the "scoop", seek comments from people who have marginal to no connection to those who really know what is going on and the broadcast the comments as reliable "fact". The "source close to the administration", the "government offical who asked to be unnamed", the "Pentagon official speaking on condition of anonimity", all contribute to the ongoing game of 'Telephone' where something is said and warped, transformed, and mutated to fill the purpose of whoever is reporting. Then, when the Administration tries to clarify or correct the "reports", they are accused of trying to coverup or backtrack. This is not a defense of the Obama White House; this has been going on with a vengeance since probably the Nixon Administration, if not longer. A probable good rule of thum is to regard initial reports in the media with large and several grains of salt. Here, in Los Angeles, a local radio station, when informed of a major coming announcement from the White House, spent the hour or so leading up to the actual announcement wildly speculating on the possible subject matter. The gamut of possible subjects was mind-boggling. The situation got so frenzied, the station was actually reporting Twitter tweets as if they were reports from wire services, press secretaries, or government spokespersons.

[Growler]

Ah, the Internet. Misunderstanding each other at near-real-time has never been so convenient.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ah, the Internet. Misunderstanding each other at near-real-time has never been so convenient.

Right up to the BSOD! :DL

[Bakkels]

You can't handle the truth!!!

:har:

[MH]

Carefully US
It might turn into war crime lol
United Nations whats wrong with those people:damn:



UN questions U.S. on legality of bin Laden killing


Steven Edwards, Postmedia News

Published: Tuesday, May 03, 2011
UNITED NATIONS - The UN's chief human rights official led calls by rights activist organizations on Tuesday for Washington to explain whether U.S. forces lawfully killed Osama bin Laden.

The request by Navi Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, came even as the world body continues to falter over its multi-year bid to define terrorism.

Pillay's bid also appeared to contradict the position held by UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who on Monday described the U.S. action as a "watershed moment in our common global fight against terrorism."

The mixed messages are likely to heighten critics' claims that the UN's human rights apparatus is frequently quick to probe for abuses by Western democracies - even as it appears to limit its criticism of some of the world's established human rights abuser states.

In an example of UN human rights scrutiny involving Canada, the UN's Working Group on People of African Descent announced this week it will visit the country May 16-20 to probe for discrimination against African-Canadians. In recent years the committee has visited the United States, Ecuador and Belgium - but shunned such destinations as Libya, where independent human rights groups such as UN Watch have said black Africans face persecution, and Sudan, where the United States has accused the Arab-led government of committing genocide in Darfur.

On the U.S. action in Pakistan Sunday, Pillay agreed that bin Laden was a "very dangerous man" who had acknowledged having "command responsibility for the most appalling acts of terrorism" - including the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks in the United States that killed almost 3,000. But she also said the United States had always "clearly stated they intended to arrest bin Laden if they could."

Admitting that taking bin Laden alive was "always going to be difficult," Pillay nevertheless signalled the United States needs to explain more about what happened in the compound.

"This was a complex operation and it would be helpful if we knew the precise facts surrounding his killing," Pillay said. "The United Nations has consistently emphasized that all counter-terrorism acts must respect international law."

Amnesty International said it was seeking "greater clarification" about what went on, while New York-based Human Rights Watch said "law enforcement" principles should have applied.

"If he wasn't shooting at the soldiers, the killing should be investigated," Brad Adams, Human Rights Watch Asia director, said in Bangkok at the launch of a report on Thailand.

"People are saying that justice has been done, but justice has not been done. Justice is when you arrest someone and put them on trial."

The White House on Tuesday scrambled to release a so-called "narrative" of the events leading to bin Laden's death after various government sources a day earlier suggested the al-Qaida leader had both been armed and used a woman as a human shield.

While the narrative said bin Laden had not been armed, it recounted a fierce firefight with others as the special operations forces fought their way to the compound's second and third floors, where the al-Qaida leader and family members were located. Bin Laden was also said to have offered resistance, while a woman identified as a wife lunged at the operatives, leading to her being wounded with a shot to the leg.

"There was concern bin Laden would oppose the . . . operation, and indeed he did resist," said Jay Carney, White House spokesman. "Bin Laden's wife rushed the U.S. assaulter, but was not killed. Bin Laden was then shot and killed."

Carney stated that "resistance does not require a firearm" after a reporter pressed him on how bin Laden could have posed a threat.

Speaking earlier, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder stated that the operation was "lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way."

"The people who were responsible for that action both in the decision making and in the effecting of that decision, handled themselves, I think, quite well," he told the judiciary committee of the U.S. House of Representatives.

A U.S. executive order signed in 1981 prohibits the United States or anyone acting on its behalf from conducting assassinations, but U.S. officials have argued there is legal latitude to target individuals in an ongoing conflict - including the current one in which bin Laden himself declared war on the United States and other nations.

"The principles of distinction and proportionality that the U.S. applies are . . . implemented rigorously throughout the planning and execution of lethal operations to ensure that operations are conducted in accordance with all applicable law," Harold Koh, legal adviser at the U.S. State Department, told a meeting of the American Society of International Law last year.

[Growler]

Next up, the ACLU, Reverend Jesse, and Al "Big Hair" Sharpton, for their moments of stolen spotlight.

[August]

US out of UN. UN out of US!

[Growler]

US out of UN. UN out of US!

Can we give them Al and Jesse as parting gifts?

[August]

Can we give them Al and Jesse as parting gifts?

I'd prefer parting shots. We could use a clown cannon like they have at the circus. :DL

[Growler]

I'd prefer parting shots. We could use a clown cannon like they have at the circus. :DL

Gonna need a large-bore and a lot of powder for Al.

[MaddogK]

Carefully US
It might turn into war crime lol
United Nations whats wrong with those people:damn:

Convenient that the admin has already laid the groundwork for an alibi- Panetta stating the Seals had final authority to kill, and a 'mysterious' blackout of video during the op.

:hmmm:
http://www.businessinsider.com/bin-laden-poked-his-head-out-the-door-when-seals-fired-the-first-shots-at-him-ethat-missed-2011-5

[Ducimus]

Last i checked their was a great big hole in NY city that gave us all the authority we needed to kill that rat bastard any way we like. Personally, id have opted for a slow painful, and humiliating death. A bullet is just too quick.

[mookiemookie]

:roll: Oh, UN...

[TorpX]

So, Pakistan is saying UBL had no weapons.

The top 5 reasons why Osama had no weapons:


He just left his AK-47's in the last cave.
He had renounced violence and was planning a peaceful "jihad" with protest marches and sternly worded letters.
He never really liked guns; decided to rely on kung-fu, and only if "Great Satan" attacked first.
Who needs arms? The neighborhood by Pakistan Military Academy is very safe.
Osama was completely innocent. 911 was all a plot by George Bush.

[geetrue]

Anyone who would be offended by an OBL death image I'm not at all concerned about. Bringing whack jobs out of the woodwork to be killed is in fact a good thing.

What is your address anyway, tater? :haha:

[Madox58]

So the armchair Warriors who play stuff like Black Ops know it all.
:nope:

What happens in Games is not how it happens in Real Life!
You don't get a do over if you get killed!

In a split second one must make a decision that provides the outcome
of any armed engagement.

Those that stormed that Compound were not ArmChair Generals!
They are HIGHLY trained experts at what they do!

That level of commitment and training is beyond what any News person,
CryBaby, or PC ArseHole could ever comprehend.

He is DEAD! Get over it and quite the BS!!
Now lets go and eradicate the rest of those SOBS!!

I'd even go so far as to tell them
"We don't want you alive!"
"We ARE going to hunt you down and blow your head off!"

[Jimbuna]

There is just one thing I don't get about this whole Bin Laden story...

If he had about 7 wives, how was his house such a mess? :hmmm:

[geetrue]

Perhaps we should start treating the news like we do new video games and wait for the first patch ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/us/politics/05binladen.html?_r=1

The new details suggested that the raid, though chaotic and bloody, was extremely one-sided, with a force of more than 20 Navy Seal (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/us_navy/index.html?inline=nyt-org) members quickly dispatching the handful of men protecting Bin Laden.
Administration officials said that the only shots fired by those in the compound came at the beginning of the operation, when Bin Laden’s trusted courier, Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, opened fire from behind the door of the guesthouse adjacent to the house where Bin Laden was hiding.
After the Seal members shot and killed Mr. Kuwaiti and a woman in the guesthouse, the Americans were never fired upon again.
This account differs from an official version of events issued by the Pentagon on Tuesday, and read by the White House spokesman, Jay Carney (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/jay_carney/index.html?inline=nyt-per), which said the Seal members “were engaged in a firefight throughout the operation.”
In a television interview on PBS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/public_broadcasting_service/index.html?inline=nyt-org) on Tuesday, Leon E. Panetta (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/leon_e_panetta/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the director of the C.I.A. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/central_intelligence_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org), said, “There were some firefights that were going on as these guys were making their way up the staircase of that compound.”
Administration officials said the official account of events has changed over the course of the week because it has taken time to get thorough after-action reports from the Seal team. And, they added, because the Special Operations troops had been fired upon as soon as they touched down in the compound, they were under the assumption that everyone inside was armed.
“They were in a threatening and hostile environment the entire time,” one American official said.
When the commandos moved into the main house, they saw the courier’s brother, who they believed was preparing to fire a weapon. They shot and killed him. Then, as they made their way up the stairs of the house, officials said they killed Bin Laden’s son Khalid as he lunged toward the Seal team.
When the commandos reached the top floor, they entered a room and saw Osama bin Laden with an AK-47 and a Makarov pistol in arm’s reach. They shot and killed him, as well as wounding a woman with him.
The firefight over and Bin Laden dead, the team found a trove of information and had the time to remove much of it: about 100 thumb drives, DVDs and computer disks, along with 10 computer hard drives and 5 computers. There were also piles of paper documents in the house.
The White House declined to release any additional details about the operation, saying that further information would jeopardize the military’s ability to conduct clandestine operations in the future. The administration’s reticence came after it was forced on Tuesday to correct parts of its initial account (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/world/asia/04raid.html) of the raid, including assertions that Bin Laden had used his wife as a “human shield.”
“We’ve revealed a lot of information; we’ve been as forthcoming with facts as we can be,” Mr. Carney said.

[geetrue]

There is just one thing I don't get about this whole Bin Laden story...

If he had about 7 wives, how was his house such a mess? :hmmm:

Yes indeed where were they ... it was a bloody mess :woot:

[Growler]

Perhaps we should start treating the news like we do new video games and wait for the first patch ...



...and the second... and the update to the second... and the enhanced update to the update to the second... and the third...

Oh, wait... I'm sorry. I thought we were playing the Microsoft Game.:D

[tater]

Releasing the photo only accomplishes placating the skeptical. It would serve no other purpose. The skeptical will still be skeptical of the photos as well. It is a waste of good bandwidth.

AVG, something can be a good idea, but still not be appropriate. Given the 1st amendment, and the FOIA, the onus is on the government (as it should be) to demonstrate why such otherwise public domain information should be held back. "Because they say so" isn't good enough.

I could be convinced that not publishing was the best thing, and still think that the government cannot hold the images back regardless.

What can they claim the reason is to NOT publish them? National security? That would basically require saying that we must censor any speech in the US that might offend muslims. That pretty much shuts up the entire society, because virtually everything offends muslims. So national security is off the table. Since they can redact any parts of an image that might contain, say, a classified weapon, or document next to the carcass, that won't cut it, either. There is basically no possible rationale for not publishing the images other than possibly "good sense." Good sense isn't enough, though, constitutionally.

[Freiwillige]

AVG, something can be a good idea, but still not be appropriate. Given the 1st amendment, and the FOIA, the onus is on the government (as it should be) to demonstrate why such otherwise public domain information should be held back. "Because they say so" isn't good enough.

I could be convinced that not publishing was the best thing, and still think that the government cannot hold the images back regardless.

What can they claim the reason is to NOT publish them? National security? That would basically require saying that we must censor any speech in the US that might offend muslims. That pretty much shuts up the entire society, because virtually everything offends muslims. So national security is off the table. Since they can redact any parts of an image that might contain, say, a classified weapon, or document next to the carcass, that won't cut it, either. There is basically no possible rationale for not publishing the images other than possibly "good sense." Good sense isn't enough, though, constitutionally.

Well put. :up:

[Tribesman]

There is basically no possible rationale for not publishing the images other than possibly "good sense." Good sense isn't enough, though, constitutionally.
So you realise it may be good sense to not do something but want to do it anyway because you think an old piece of paper doesn't say you can't so you should:doh:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Dang! Late to the party again! Stupid work.


I'm not here to argue with anyone or comment on the building political crapstorm over this issue or offer shouldas or wouldas or couldas. I'm sure I'll get around to that later. I'm just here to say that when I heard of Bin Laden's death it felt like a great weight had been lifted off of my shoulders, in a personal sense. I wasn't even a part of the effort to find him, other than in the broader sense of the war on terror, but knowing that he is dead gives me a sense of mission accomplishment, and it is a great feeling.

I also want to give credit where credit is due. As much as I dislike Obama and consider him a socialist, he was the guy who made the call and I respect him for that. He came through for America and the world at a time when it really mattered and didn't wimp out because Pakistan would whine about it. Nice work, Chief:salute:

[tater]

So you realise it may be good sense to not do something but want to do it anyway because you think an old piece of paper doesn't say you can't so you should:doh:

The Constitution is a great "old piece of paper" (actually hide, it's on parchment (drafts were hemp paper)). Yes, it can trump what might seem like short term "good sense" in the name of long-term better sense.

The precedent would allow a President to unilaterally disallow publishing ANYTHING. That should be easy to see. Note that the people in the admin (and their willing allies in the press) have been nodding to presidential power where just a few years ago they were ignoring powerful "good sense" arguments put by a different president to not publish details of counter-terrorism programs, etc.

[MothBalls]

UN questions U.S. on legality of bin Laden killing

Steven Edwards, Postmedia News

Published: Tuesday, May 03, 2011
UNITED NATIONS - The UN's chief human rights official led calls by rights activist organizations on Tuesday for Washington to explain whether U.S. forces lawfully killed Osama bin Laden.


If I may, I'd like to offer some American sayings response to this dribble......


"tough chit, whatcha gonna do about it?"

"and you're point is?"

"sorry, our bad"

"If I thought that was any of your ----ing business, I would have told you already"

and in parting I would just like to add......

"Fuk with the bull, you'll get the horns"

[MothBalls]

If anything, his death should prove one thing about America.

Come on our soil, kill innocent women, children, citizens..... we don't care how long it takes or how much it costs, you can kiss your ass goodbye.

[Skybird]

German TV yesterday revealed how they got track of Bin Laden: it was his playstation account. :timeout:

Serious, more news get leaked saying that the operaiton has run very differently and that there was no serious resitence. Just one man shot back and was soon killed, sources inside the government say who want to stay anonymous because they are not authorized to reveal this info, they say. Not that it reallky matters, but why this suzicidal crisscrossing of the adminstration about the operation?

And why not showing the evidence for BL's death that would end all speculation?

Both together just adds to the smell. Get rid of that smell now, Obama. Once the conspriuacy theory has been turned into modern myths, all chances are gone to ever kill it by the roots.

Interesting article you linked, August. Far more believable than the clean and smooth stories they have told so far, and corrected, and withdrawn and replaced.

[Torplexed]

nd why not showing the evidence for BL's death that would end all speculation?



Apparently, Obama's stance is that it isn't our job to prove that bin Laden is dead. It's bin Laden's job to prove that he is alive. :88)

Seriously, I do find it interesting that, according those who monitor radical Islamic blogs and websites there seems to be little doubt of his death giving the rage, martyrdom and revenge mode they've gone into to. Having a wife and a child confirming his death seem to be enough for them. The play-both-sides-of the-fence Pakistani intelligence organization might have a hand in the confirming it to them as well.

[Armistead]

We have over 20 stories about his death, just the way the government likes it.

I'm telling you Osama's somewhere with the CIA getting his nuts fried and making love to a pig.

Any video of him being dumped will be fake.

[Skybird]

Al Quaeda has just admitted in its forums BL was killed on Monday.

That is the strongest hint we have so far. Still no evidence: they have lied and faked messages before.

[AVGWarhawk]

AVG, something can be a good idea, but still not be appropriate. Given the 1st amendment, and the FOIA, the onus is on the government (as it should be) to demonstrate why such otherwise public domain information should be held back. "Because they say so" isn't good enough.

I could be convinced that not publishing was the best thing, and still think that the government cannot hold the images back regardless.

What can they claim the reason is to NOT publish them? National security? That would basically require saying that we must censor any speech in the US that might offend muslims. That pretty much shuts up the entire society, because virtually everything offends muslims. So national security is off the table. Since they can redact any parts of an image that might contain, say, a classified weapon, or document next to the carcass, that won't cut it, either. There is basically no possible rationale for not publishing the images other than possibly "good sense." Good sense isn't enough, though, constitutionally.

Consitutionally? I'm not sure if that applies here. Why bother with the Constitution and just use the Freedom of Information Act? Then again, the information can be freed at the governments behest. Like most of the information that is freed, There is no good sense/reason in releasing the photos IMO.

Hell, just sit back...Joe Biden will post the pictures on the net. Hell, he has spilled the beans on everything else. :doh:

[krashkart]

Haha! great response!

A friend of mine found this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVdU2eVYSg


Guess you were right after all... :haha:

[AVGWarhawk]

A friend of mine found this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVdU2eVYSg


Guess you were right after all... :haha:

Good Lord...really? :doh::88)

[les green01]

i can said wtfg and a bullit saves us money on a trial,and someone knew he was there in the pak gov and we keep giving them aid and basic they been double dealing that is bull---- pure and simple

[AVGWarhawk]

Articles I've read say that the Navy Seals raided Bin Laden's lair with Belgian Malinois and German Shepherds specifically trained to located and "detain" combatants. The dogs were strapped to the sides of the Navy Seals as they were lowered from the helicopters to the ground.

Of note, the dogs HAVE CUSTOM FITTED TITANIUM INCISORS at $2,000.00 for each canine tooth, razor-sharpened to go through the toughest material...

Maybe the best man for the job was a dog....

[tater]

One, they should have had the dogs rip bin laden apart. That would be awesome on so many levels.

Two, the bottom line is that the burden of proof is on the administration as to why they must withhold information that should be available under the FOIA.

[AVGWarhawk]

Two, the bottom line is that the burden of proof is on the administration as to why they must withhold information that should be available under the FOIA.

The freedom of the information is at the governments discretion. Like everything else! :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

Well that's one less christmas card I'll be sending this year :O:

BTW, I killed Colonel Gaddafi the other night. I didn't take any pictures and threw his body into the sea. Just take my word for it; he's definitely dead.

[tater]

The freedom of the information is at the governments discretion. Like everything else! :shifty:

It's not, hence the government saying they want to hold info, then suits are brought and they are forced to release. Happens all the time.

[AVGWarhawk]

It's not, hence the government saying they want to hold info, then suits are brought and they are forced to release. Happens all the time.

In something that concerns national security? :hmmm: The FOIA is not as free as some like to think.

[tater]

In something that concerns national security? :hmmm: The FOIA is not as free as some like to think.

What is the national security issue? Offending Islamists? That alone is a reason TO publish them. IMHO, this is no different than not showing danish cartoons, or even South Park. The US should never not do something because it offends a particular religion. The Constitution comes in as the establishment clause in that case, since the only possible "national security" issue is "it will offend muslims." (singling out a religion not to be offended by the state is "establishment")

The unspoken bigotry (lol) is that offended muslims are dangerous, homicidal maniacs. (interesting that Obama doesn't realize, or doesn't care that this is what he is saying.)

If the cartoons, burned koran, etc are any indication, the attacks will likely not kill americans anyway, so again, no national security issue. Also, if this is offense, then should Seal teams be sent to shut up that redneck preacher in FL burning korans?

I just don't see the compelling interest.

[AVGWarhawk]

When I stated 'national security' I was not referring to this particular case concerning a picture of a terrorist. There are many things vital to national security that do not and will not fall under FOIA. These pictures are not something that is a national security risk. However, these pictures could insight retaliation against the nation. IMO displaying these pictures is not necessary. I do not care if anyone is offended.

You make a compelling argument and are correct. If we fart the wrong way someone out there is utterly offended and brandishes AK47 while burning the flag. Plastering the pictures on Facebook would make very little difference.

[Bakkels]

What I don't get is what would be offensive about those pictures.
I mean, burning the Quran for example, that's offensive. Or saying all Arabs are animals, that's offensive. And I think these things are wrong. But showing pictures of a dead guy, how is that offensive? It might be confronting, gruesome or whatever, but I can't see what is offensive about it. It's just news, it's factual. Well I guess it's just me...

[Platapus]

I think the real question is who much MORE offensive would the pictures be other than the killing itself? I am pretty sure that the shooting of UBL is what offends the most.

[Bakkels]

I think the real question is who much MORE offensive would the pictures be other than the killing itself? I am pretty sure that the shooting of UBL is what offends the most.

That's what I meant to say indeed. :)

[Jimbuna]

Publish and be damned....who cares?

[Ducimus]

I have found pictures of Osama's stinking carcass! Want to see?
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http://www.cagle.com/news/OsamaSea/images/broelman.jpg
http://www.cagle.com/news/OsamaSea/images/matson.jpg
http://www.cagle.com/news/OsamaSea/images/bagley.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.yasrsly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/obama-speech-he-is-dead-gif.gif