View Full Version : [WIP] Japanese Merchant Marine
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/convoy_dusk.jpg
Japanese Merchant Marine for RSRDC, TMO and RFB.
By Sergei and Tater
Additional content by:
Keltos1 - Japanese small arms.
Miner1436 - Japanese small arms and the Type A Dihatsu landing craft model work.
Poul and the SOM Group (for the use of some of their merchant ships)
Others have some WIP we hope to add :)
Thanks to:
Skwasjer for S3D, without which this simply would not have happened.
Lurker_hlb3 (for RSRDC)
Ducimus (TMO dats)
LukeFF (RFB dats/sims)
Observer (RFB dats/sims)
Nisgeis (for helping to set me straight on a number of issues :) )
Motoyuki Iwashige (for his amazing models and book that provided such inspiration) http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~iwashige/ (http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/%7Eiwashige/)
The credits are by no means complete, but they will be sorted out for release.
The additional content has been altered by sergei and tater, and we accept any problems that might have resulted as our own.
Background
This all started with Sergei's wonderful ship skins. Doing them in the stock game is, well, a nightmare. So Sergei rebuilt all the texture maps on the actual 3d models so that the hull was as continuous as possible. I immediately started bugging him with images of Japanese dazzle paint schemes, colors used, etc. The result was a stunning collection of skins by sergei.
Given that this mod requires a new DAT file for all ships that are reskinned, I decided that my contribution could be to do any work in the DAT files that might make the merchants better, and more variable to the player. What we have done is to place many "Y" nodes in the dat that allow gun platforms, deck cargo, or anything else we'd like to be placed with just changes to the eqp file. This means we can have variant ships with so-called "BP-clones." These are cloned ships that borrow an existing model. All they have are cfg, eqp, sns, _sil, and _shp files.
Scope
New skins for all merchants including:
Civilian skins, which will be rare, and will slowly disappear as the war progresses. Around 4 per ship.
Wartime Grey. Common throughout the war, though less likely late in the war when green takes over as the standard. 2-3 variants per ship.
Dazzle schemes. The Japanese used 2 and 3 tone dazzle schemes in shades of grey. Sergei has replicated real patterns in use by the japanese.
Around 4 per ship.
Later war Green. Starting in '44 (late '43?) you'll see the green measure used. 2 per ship. The green was possibly used earlier on new construction, but in June of 1944, it was ordered to be applied on ALL merchants over 500 grt. By the end of '44, get used to green :)
Humanitarian schemes. Hospital and POW supply ship schemes.
There are 20 stock merchant hulls, so the total skin count is huge; over 260 skins are included!
New equipment:
Most ships have revamped eqp files and dats. This means that they will have gun platforms that vary or change over the course of the war, even possibly alternate mast arrangements, false funnels, deck objects, etc. Some will even draw different amounts of water, so the stock heavily laden ships, and "light" ships riding high.
New Ships:
We're going to add a few ships from Battle for the Baltic with their team's kind permission, because they bear a strong resemblance to Japanese units. As we have brand new ships we will add those as well.
Miner1436's Type A landing craft is in as deck cargo, and will be included as a functioning ship as well.
Campaign changes:
JMM will use some "zero file size" layers in RSRDC to allow for some traffic outside the initial scope of RSRDC. The Hospital ships, for example. To start these are not TROM copies, but they are informed by the places they went in the TROMs. I'll try to get some precise TROM based content in there as we go forward. As we see more small coasters, we'll likely need to add in more coastal traffic (sea trucks, barges, etc).
The benefit of using the zero file size .mis files is that it doesn't mess with the RSRDC campaign.cfg.
New Recognition Manual:
Because we will be cloning many (nearly all) ships at least once for variant versions, we need to do something with the rec manual since rec manual entries are auto-generated for all ships (which is unfortunate). Since we don't wish to clutter the rec manual with 2, 3, or even more entries for a single ship, I have taken a different tack with the rec manual. The mod will rewrite all the merchant rec manual files (the _sil images) with direct copies of ONI manual pages reformatted for SH4.
Also, some ships were better known by ONI, and had more data. We might have some ships with more than one rec manual page per ship. Such a ship might look like the following as you click through the manual:
You'd get to page one for Kasagisan and see:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/kasagisan_pg1.jpg
Click to the next ship, and you see:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/kasagisan_pg2.jpg
The lower "page" of a single entry will, instead of computer generated perfect matches of the SH4 ship, look like this to start:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/heito_recman2.jpg
The reason for ONI images is twofold. One, I like them, and the stock manual makes ID too easy. Two, I want to have non-repeating entries for our cloned ships. As a result SOME entries in the rec manual will be dummies. I might make a variant designed to actually look like another class of merchant, in which case the rec manual will refer to the ship in question, or it might be a similar sized ship that is not yet in game. In the above Kasagisan example, the two ships are identical, but might have variant gun platforms, paint schemes, or even different drafts.
More later...
Yet another reserved bit.
virtualpender
08-22-10, 04:20 PM
First things first, a huge thank you to Sergei and Tater for investing the time in research and production to make this mod happen. The community thanks you.
Second, a suggestion. Tater - I love where you are going with the recognition manual but have a thought - rather than formatting the ship names as KASAGISAN MARU SPLIT what about entering them as SPLIT KASAGISAN MARU? This would have the advantage of allowing the recognition manual to be used the same way the actual ones were - gradually narrowing down to class after identifying the type and construction details.
Thank you again and we are all eagerly looking forward to the release!
:up:
Interesting idea.
The rec manual is arranged in the following way:
All the merchants are together, then it looks at "unit type" as defined in Names.cfg.
Merchants are types 100-109.
So "replenishment" first (100), then tankers, then cargo, transports, coastals. Types 105 and 106 don't show, 107-109 are the "rare" types... which might not actually show, I need to check that.
Within each type, it is alphabetical by the class name.
So KMSSKinposan.cfg would come after AKMSSKinposan.cfg
We can rename them so they change order, but renaming classes will FUBAR the campaign (I think).
Still, an interesting idea we can very easily try since that name is merely the descriptor in Names.cfg.
Another thing I might try is to replicate the ONI photograph IN GAME. So if we have a quartering bow show at sea of a ship, we take the same image as a SS, then scale it, make it B&W, etc.---with a similar civilian scheme applied.
virtualpender
08-22-10, 05:56 PM
Yeah exactly - I was just thinking changing the entries in Names.cfg. I know altering the class names would present an endless number of problems.
Great idea of using B&W screenshots in place of the ONI photos.
Your comments about recognition being too simple are spot on - these improvements will add a new level of realism and authenticity that has been needed. Once fully released, this mod plus Nisgeis' TDC will take what the devs were able to do and what Ducimus, Lurker, LukeFF, Skwas, et al built upon and make this the penultimate simulation of the US submarine campaign.
cdrsubron7
08-22-10, 06:13 PM
This mod is looking totally awesome, can't wait to give it a try. If you guys should by any chance need some beta testers, I'd like to volunteer my services.
Totally looking forward to this, well done on a great job. :up: :yeah:
Sailor Steve
08-22-10, 09:43 PM
:rock:
We'll likely release a version that is usable, then add more stuff in a "dot release" down the road. We're trying to do this in a sustainable way so we don't feel deadline pressure (such pressures are for work, not fun :) ).
Stuff that is on my list of things to do—anyone who wants to help is welcome!
Finish my Standard Type 2D model.
Finish my kitbashed Aux Seaplane tender.
Improved (and varied) tarps for on deck (sun protection for men on deck).
Some outhouses for the cargo-troopships (yep, you read that right).
Hammock mantlets (hammocks used as splinter protection, you've seen them on pictures, they look like sandbags). (this is already in progress :) )
Canvas ventilator extensions (seen on ships in the tropics, they frequently look like large arrows hanging above deck).
Add in a lot of coastal traffic (barges, coasters, etc close inshore).
Make some new gun platforms (my 3d skils aren't that good yet, and these relatively simple structures will go a LONG way).
Hammock mantlets:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/hammock_mantlet.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/hiryu_HM.jpg
Tedious to add, but you get the idea.
RL:
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo7/no4/images/Stuart5.jpg
Mescator
08-22-10, 11:52 PM
Humanitarian schemes. Hospital and POW ship schemes.
Did Submarines attack Hospital ship and POW ships? I remember reading of a few subs spotting hospital ships and leaving them alone. I do recall an instance where a American sub sunk a POW ship and killed hundreds of prisoners though.
The Japanese used Hospital ships as troop transports in some cases. Near the end of the war, a hospital ship was stopped and boarded by 2 USN DDs. They found ammunition, guns, and troops aboard. She was taken as a prize (later used for repatriation).
Sometimes they were not properly marked (unlit), the POW ships early on were not marked at all in many (Most? All?) cases.
Hitting them can be made not worth your while... a negative renown value. We'll ask Luke and Ducimus what they want for that for their respective mods :)
The point of having such schemes is to make it interesting. You get a radar contact, hunt it down, it comes into view... and it's a hospital ship.
Looking at the TROMs, some were escorted, as well.
keltos01
08-23-10, 01:39 AM
Very very nice work, I just wish someone would take the time to work as well on the allied merchant marine..
Great Work Tater!
keltos
Another thing I might try is to replicate the ONI photograph IN GAME.
That's what I was thinking Tater, in case you didn't have enough real photos to use.
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2369/nommoscowsil.jpg
GerritJ9
08-23-10, 06:19 AM
Japanese hospital ships were marked according to international regulations- white hull and superstructure, green band round hull, red crosses on hull and funnel(s), lit at night etc (which does not mean that the Japanese did not use/misuse these ships for more warlike purposes. The Japanese had little regard for international law regarding hospital ships, witness their illegal seizure of the Dutch hospital ship "Op ten Noort" in the Java Sea, and later commandeering her for their own purposes as the hospital ship "Hikawa Maru No.2"). Ships carrying POWs/Asian slave labourers, however, were not marked as such in any way at all; the Japanese simply appointed an available vessel as POW carrier and crammed the unfortunates in the holds. I certainly have never heard of any hellship such as "Kachidoki Maru", "Rakuyo Maru" or "Junyo Maru" receiving any kind of special paint/markings. To be fair, though, the "Laconia", sunk in the Atlantic by a U-Boot while carring Italian POWs, wasn't specially marked either as far as I know.
Japanese hospital ships were marked according to international regulations- white hull and superstructure, green band round hull, red crosses on hull and funnel(s), lit at night etc
Early war hospital ship.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7905/hop1.jpg
Late war hospital/POW ship
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7999/powc.jpg
The POW paint was later in the war. We have RL examples that sergei used as a model (green paint measure, with crosses).
Some US subs reported hospital ships that were NOT lit, I seem to recall this from my reading of books by skippers.
GerritJ9
08-23-10, 08:09 AM
There is a photo of "Hikawa Maru No. 2" on:
http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Noort.htm
The ship is clearly painted in the white hull etc scheme but the date when the photo was taken is unknown.
Re the second scheme you posted, I think this is the scheme used by Japanese repatriation ships post-war. I have seen several b&w photos of Japanese merchant and naval ships with white crosses on the hull, these were all taken post-war when the vessels were used to repatriate Japanese citizens.
Jan Kyster
08-23-10, 08:15 AM
...I do recall an instance where a American sub sunk a POW ship and killed hundreds of prisoners though.That could be the Growler...
"For the tenth war patrol Growler was lead submarine in a wolf-pack with Sealion and Pampanito in Formosa Strait. On 12 September the group attacked a convoy and Growler sank the 870 ton frigate Hirado and the 1950-ton destroyer Shikinami. Three days later the subs passed the area of the attack again and they found men clinging to rafts and floating debris, but the voices they heard were english. They were prisoners of war onboard the sunken convoy ships, other subs were called in to assist and 159 allied prisoners were rescued."
Source: The Last Patrol by Harry Holmes. ISBN-1-85310-414-0
@Tater: :rock:
That could be true, gerrit. Now that you say that, a square with a cross was used for japanese aircraft for repatriation as well.
We'll double check this.
:yeah:
Awa Maru at the time of her sinking by USS Queenfish:
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~iwashige/awamarumod.jpg
This scheme is RARE right now, though. I set the hospital and POW clones to be "Rare Troop Ship" types, then built traffic for them. There are only 3 ships that are that type, Conte Verde, and our 2 clones. Right now, we have 2 white schemes (one each for 2 ships), and one POW (1 for 1 ship). This means my incredibly rare traffic will only have a 1/3 chance of spawning a ship with a POW scheme (only after late '43 for the green), then only a 50% chance of the green. I can also add a gray scheme tot he list to dilute it further, or make 5 identical entries for white skins, and 1 POW, and you'll almost never see it.
Or, when I get the time I can TROM script Awa M. RSRDC style.
tater
GerritJ9
08-23-10, 08:50 AM
Not sure how reliable one can consider Wikipedia, but......
[/URL][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awa_Maru_%281943%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awa_Maru_%281943)
According to this she was acting as "Red Cross relief ship, carrying vital supplies to American and Allied POWs in Japanese custody." My guess is that this scheme was used by ships carrying such supplies, but not for ships transporting POWs.
Mescator
08-23-10, 09:35 AM
That could be the Growler...
Nah, the one i remember distinctly mentions Australian POW's and all of them died.
My guess is that this scheme was used by ships carrying such supplies, but not for ships transporting POWs.
Entirely possible.
I could have sworn I saw multiple examples of this scheme on Motoyuki Iwashige's site, but looking at it again today the Awa Maru is the only example of this paint scheme I can find.
They are listed at combinedfleet as Prisoner of War Relief Supply Ships.
Functionally it doesn't matter even a little if they carried POWs or not. They carried supplies for POWs at the very least, and were not to be sunk. What matters is that the paint measure existed. "POW" exists as nothing more than the name attached to the skin. That's it we called them POW because naming the skin "Prisoner of War Relief Supply Ship" is rather long. They appear in late '43, and if you see one in every 50 campaigns I'll be surprised, frankly.
From the player perspective, it's the fact that they are not legitimate targets that matters. If they carry POWs or just supplies for POWs... doesn't matter, player should still get a renown hit if he sinks 'em, no? The way the skins are set up, they could be white (hospital) and take a renown hit. They could be green with crosses, and then they are these pow supply ships, again, should not hit them. Since they are so incredibly rare anyway, we could have some in grey paint, and you'd STILL get a renown hit if you sank one. Tough luck—that would be a good sinking, then presumably after you RTB ONI figures out via sigint, diplomatic complaints, whatever, that it was filled with your own guys. :)
I added "supply" between "POW" and "ship" in the first post for ya :D
I realized some of these posts might seem pointed, if they do I apologize, I appreciate the feedback and research a great deal, gerritj9. <S>
That's what I was thinking Tater, in case you didn't have enough real photos to use.
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2369/nommoscowsil.jpg
I like this idea, but it has one flaw... in the case of ONI entries for "similar" ships that are in fact different looking we don't have a SH4 ship to take a shot of. Your PS skills might well be such that you could make them indistinguishable, but obviously if the player sees a SH4 shot they'd be certain it was a "real" ship.
Again, part of the rationale behind the real ONI pages is that it will create confusion. SH4 ships are roughly designed after the ships that they are named for (some considerably more roughly than others ;) ). That said, they need to also function as "generic" ships. As such, when a ship is an analog for many RL ships of similar configuration (5k tons, MKFM Split, say), we can clone her, make some slight variation, then give her the ONI page for one of the "similar" ships that none the less look different enough that no one would probably mistake them in SH4.
It's a compromise, I realize, but the rec manual paradigm in SH stinks, frankly. The only way to really reorganize it is to make many fake countries, then assign copies of all the ships as clones that are warships for the new countries. the new countries would have names like " Composite Superstructure" or "Engines Aft."
It's rather complicated, however.
BTW, regarding the rec manual, right now, my images are roughly scaled to each other as they are in ONI. In other words I have my PDF viewer to full screen, then take a SS of the page. If the ship is "little" in the ONI drawing, it's little in this one. That could change I suppose, but most are already done (though I have yet to alpha channel all, so many are not in my WIP version right now).
I'm open to suggestions.
GerritJ9
08-23-10, 11:46 AM
Mescator, the ship you are referring to is most probably the "Montevideo Maru", see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Maru
Sadly, this was by no means the only instance of Allied subs sinking Japanese merchies which were transporting Allied POWs and/or Asian slave labourers (the latter victims almost completely forgotten today). To name but a few:
Kachidoki Maru
Rakuyo Maru
Junyo Maru
Lisbon Maru
None of the hell ships had any distinguishing markings to indicate they were transporting POWs as far as I know.
Tater, no need to apologize- we are all learning from each other as far as i'm concerned :).
I just read Fortress Rabaul, and there was quite a bit about hellships taking POWs away. I think he said that of all the POWs taken in the SWPA ibn '42 that went through Rabaul, only 2 survived the war.
OK, Awa M. was painted green the beginning of February, 1945. She ran with lights on, and COMSUBPAC sent messages giving her free passage as a POW relief supply ship.
None the less, her TROM shows her unloading Red Cross, AND military cargoes during the entire period she was supposed to be a POW RS ship. LOL. She was sunk April 1st, and cruised all along the South China Sea.
The skipper of queenfish attacked her by radar alone, and was ordered to face court marshal. Sad, really, considering that the ship was cheating on the rules in the first place, and he never even saw her.
Mescator
08-23-10, 09:15 PM
Mescator, the ship you are referring to is most probably the "Montevideo Maru", see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Maru
Aha, good find. That's her. As an Australian that one has special significance. Guess that's why it stuck in my mind.
GerritJ9
08-23-10, 09:29 PM
Feel free to incorporate part of my British Medium Old Tanker mod into this work- "Paula" was scuttled at Tandjong Priok in March 1942, but salvaged by the Japanese and added to their tanker fleet. It's not much of an addition, but I assume you will also be looking at tankers and every little bit helps I suppose :D
Feel free to incorporate part of my British Medium Old Tanker mod into this work- "Paula" was scuttled at Tandjong Priok in March 1942, but salvaged by the Japanese and added to their tanker fleet. It's not much of an addition, but I assume you will also be looking at tankers and every little bit helps I suppose :D
Does it actually do anything?
Since it only changes the
[Unit 1]
Name=Arare Maru
DOC=19430101
DOD=19450816
stuff, and that is not used by the game at all as far as I can tell, I think we need to change the top bit of the roster for it to work.
[UnitClass]
ClassName=OMPaula
UnitType=101
AppearanceDate=19270101
DisappearanceDate=19470101
DisplayName=BR Medium Tanker
to
[UnitClass]
ClassName=OMPaula
UnitType=101
AppearanceDate=19430101
DisappearanceDate=19470101
DisplayName=BR Medium Tanker
I'm interested to know if it does work, though. If it does, then all that typing I like to do in the roster (I add all the right names, too :) ) isn't for naught.
This does bring up an interesting point, the eqp files would really require clones for the non-japanese versions so the guns/crews are not japanese. I have to say, there are a few SH4 ships I just want to get rid of, and Paula is one of them---it is not the least bit "generic" looking, and there was only the one in the Japanese Merchant Fleet.
Needs work (specular was set way high on the texture), but these were places with 2 Y nodes in the eqp file (one for each level).
So The same ships can have different looks with just cfgdate changes.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/hakusika_mantlets.jpg
keltos01
08-24-10, 01:12 AM
Needs work (specular was set way high on the texture), but these were places with 2 Y nodes in the eqp file (one for each level).
So The same ships can have different looks with just cfgdate changes.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/hakusika_mantlets.jpg
this is really interresting Tater ! :up:
keltos
I definitly can't wait for this!:yep: It's mods like this that make this sim one of the greatest!
Madox58
08-24-10, 03:48 PM
Very nice work tater.
:salute:
Thanks, privateer <S>. Sergei has done the really pretty stuff, though.
BTW, one by-product of this mod will be player-produced skins. Sergei's new maps are far easier to skin than the stock ones (though some are still tricky). Heck, I even managed a skin for Biyo, and have messed around with some others—this says a lot abut sergei's templates, trust me :) .
The end result is that if anyone wants a specific scheme (say an Allied dazzle measure), it will be easy with the "clear" versions provided to do so themselves.
Hey, I'll ask you lot, particularly those of you used to Allied ships as targets.
The textures will work on the stock ships, and sergei has _O01.dds in there so the AOs will work as linked.
That said, we have some schemes that are exclusive to the Japanese (dazzle and green), but the gray and some civilian paint schemes can also be used (the ones without meatballs on them ;) ).
How late should any civilian schemes be seen if I add them to the allied rosters? Should the grays be cleaner grays for the most part?
Madox58
08-24-10, 05:35 PM
All involved are doing a very nice job!
:salute:
It's nice to see things rolling with SH4 much like SH3 did.
(Not that it was ever slow mind you!)
It gives hope for SH5 if you look at things right.
I respect anyone who takes time to 'fiddle' with a simple Game.
:yep:
Doing this reminds me of al the little things that would have made such a HUGE difference in the quality of SH4. Note that many of these small fixes were never fixed for SH5 as far as I understand... The roster file ship names actually doing something... the skin frequency (dan said it doesn't work), auto-generate rec manual, etc, ad nauseum.
We're lucky that we actually have a decent number of ships I suppose, but so many of the choices made for SH4 merchants boggle the mind.
Zinbu? WTF, seriously, WTF? I hope that model was cheap, or already done for some other problem, it's a 1-off hull that looks like nothing else with a jap flag on it in RL. Paula? Ditto (useful in the ATO, I hope?). Haruna? A refer ship, of all the small, engines aft ships they could have done---say a wartime standard 2D (over 100 built), or a 2E (457 built!), they do a 1-off. Taihosan M. is arguably the prettiest merchant in SH4, but there were other small MFMs that would have been far more representative. Also, what's with all the lifeboat davits on well decks? Sigh.
GerritJ9
08-25-10, 02:35 AM
According to this page http://www.red-duster.co.uk/royden2.htm "Zinbu Maru" was originally the British "Indrani (2)" of 4994 GRT built in 1894 and eventually sold to the Japanese. She became a war loss in 1942, though no further details re where/when/how. So far I haven't found a photo of her so I can't comment on whether she was modelled accurately or not.
"Paula"/"Arare Maru" was used as a shuttle tanker between Palembang and Singapore after the Japanese salvaged her, though she may have made an occasional voyage to Batavia or other destinations in the area. The devs modelled her quite accurately, though they did forget her mainmast!!!!
While they WERE one-offs in the Japanese Merchant Navy, as they are already in the sim why not use them :)? Ditto for the "War Melody"- as "Ryuun Maru" she was most probably a one-off as well.
Adding the war-built standard types will mean modelling them from scratch- unfortunately my skills are nil in this regard, otherwise I would have started on Hr.Ms. "Java/Sumatra" long ago.
GerritJ9
08-25-10, 04:48 AM
Actually, "War Melody"/"Ryuun Maru" might be a TWO-off type in the Japanese merchant navy. According to http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/WWlStandardBuilt.htm#Shipindex "War Dream", which entered Japanese service in 1938 as "Shoryu/Syoryu Maru", was built at the same yard (Harland & Wolff, Belfast) and shares GRT and dimensions with "War Melody" so it seems quite likely that they were identical- both are type "N". I don't have the ONI documentation unfortunately so I can't confirm this 100%- plus, she might have been altered in some way.
"Shoryu Maru" was sunk by USS "Parche" on 4/5/1944 at 20.48N 118.0E.
There are a few other Ryuun Maru sisters in ONI 208J.
We're in the "might as well use them" camp as well, the problem is that most merchant encounters are random "type=102 units. This means that if there are 10 type 102s in the game, 10% will be War Melody types. This is one reason for adding clones. We will NOT be cloning ships that we don't want to show up as often.
So if we double the number of classes, then we ~half the chance of seeing stuff that doesn't belong as much.
Paula is worse, because there were only the 3 tankers, so she'd show up 25% of the time. My plan is to clone the others so she appears less.
My Wartime Standard Type 2D will NOT be ready for this mod, but I will probably put in the BftB "Road Schooner" as a fill in (I will later simply replace the model and skins, so it will be a seamless transition). One possible thing I might do is to change all the "tankers" to "engines aft," and put my Standard Type ships in there (the ones that are engines aft). The names will look the same as they do now (defined in Names.cfg for each ship), but it will dilute the random tanker pool. Since the Wartime Std ships don't show til later in the war, I think this should be OK. I will need to check the top speeds vs RSRDC tanker convoys that employ random tankers. to make sure this won't break anything. If it is a problem, I will do something else.
And don't forget we have the Moscow from BFTB, further diluting the tanker pool.
And don't forget we have the Moscow from BFTB, further diluting the tanker pool.
True!
That's gonna help for sure. I have a few random test groups I use (BTW, the skins are randomizing nicely), and last time I loaded it up, of the 5 tankers I had in the group, 3 of them were Paula, so it was on my mind (damn you, random number generator! :) ).
I also want to remove those bloody crates from the flush deck part. It's really not immersive in rough weather to see those little crates, and they're not even lashed down :)
If the roster worked the way they were clearly thinking about—but never finished—then we'd put the 2 ship names in, then that would be it, Paula would stop showing up after those 2 were gone. As it is, I will change the Roster so that they appear with a start date that matches when they were floated in RL as in gerrit's mod. That alone will make them pretty rare.
GerritJ9
08-25-10, 11:26 AM
The Japanese only got their hands on "Paula" herself and not on her three sisters, so there is only one (albeit to the end of the war)- though historically they did have two "War Melodys" i.e. "Ryuun Maru" and "Syoryu Maru". This type shouldn't appear any longer after the second has reached her DOD date. "Paula/Arare Maru" should only start appearing after her Japanese DOC in 1943- that the class entered service in 1927 is only relevant in this respect for the class while under Dutch and British flags.
The Japanese did capture/salvage several other tankers such as the "Genota"- I'd have to check whether there were any trunkdeck tankers similar to "Paula" among them.
The Japanese only got their hands on "Paula" herself and not on her three sisters, so there is only one (albeit to the end of the war)- though historically they did have two "War Melodys" i.e. "Ryuun Maru" and "Syoryu Maru". This type shouldn't appear any longer after the second has reached her DOD date. "Paula/Arare Maru" should only start appearing after her Japanese DOC in 1943- that the class entered service in 1927 is only relevant in this respect for the class while under Dutch and British flags.
The Japanese did capture/salvage several other tankers such as the "Genota"- I'd have to check whether there were any trunkdeck tankers similar to "Paula" among them.
Doers the roster file DOD date actually work? I suppose I should actually test this vs the DisappearanceDate at the top.
gerrit, I just tested the DOD dates added from your mod with a random group in 1942 (cfg date BEFORE Paula should appear). Paula appeared.
The DOD does nothing at all, as I suspected.
Only the AppearanceDate and DisappearanceDate matter.
So to do anything, your mod needs to set the AppearanceDate for the first date of a ship of that class, and the DisappearanceDate for the last of that class.
I will make those changes and fold it in.
GerritJ9
08-25-10, 02:03 PM
Wonder what the individual DOC and DOD dates were intended for, then........ Perhaps a proposed feature that was to ensure that at no time more than the historically correct number of a type could appear- a feature that did not make it to the sim as released? Obviously it would look a bit silly to see, say, four "Akizukis" at a time when only one was actually in service for instance. This would most probably have to be hard-coded somewhere and is therefore not something we could activate/add unfortunately.
Anyway, thank you for the info- I always assumed that the individual DOC and DOD dates governed the appearance/disappearance of ship types. I'll take a look at the "Akizukis" roster- wonder what the relevant entries are. Now, where's my Jentschura?
Wonder what the individual DOC and DOD dates were intended for, then........ Perhaps a proposed feature that was to ensure that at no time more than the historically correct number of a type could appear- a feature that did not make it to the sim as released? Obviously it would look a bit silly to see, say, four "Akizukis" at a time when only one was actually in service for instance. This would most probably have to be hard-coded somewhere and is therefore not something we could activate/add unfortunately.
Anyway, thank you for the info- I always assumed that the individual DOC and DOD dates governed the appearance/disappearance of ship types. I'll take a look at the "Akizukis" roster- wonder what the relevant entries are. Now, where's my Jentschura?
I always assumed the same thing, actually, and whenever I changed a roster file, I've always added all the ships and dates, lol.
Like texture frequency, it doesn't work.
GerritJ9
08-25-10, 02:24 PM
Hmmm..... :hmmm:this one is going to require some work! For starters, only two ships are listed, "Akizuki" and "Natsuzuki", not the twelve that were commissioned. Next, the first,""Akizuki", was completed on 11/6/1942...... but the roster's Appearance Date is 19410701!!!!! The rosters of the merchies will probably require even more work to set straight- "War Melody" and "Hog Island" have only one (generic) entry in their British rosters- the rosters for the other merchies won't be much better I suspect:timeout:
I set the akizukis later in my campaign. It's not a problem in RSRDC, as there are no random DDs.
RSRDC is obligatory, IMO, so I don't care in the least how it is in any other mod (or stock).
One reason it's so hard to make the Hog Islander look like any japanese ships...
It doesn't actually look very much like a Hog Islander as far as I can tell.
Once I make it look right, it will also be more generic to ships used by Japan...
GerritJ9
08-27-10, 05:00 AM
With ships that were one-offs, AppearanceDate and DisappearanceDate should then match DOC and DOD so no problems on that score...... but if number of individual entries in the roster does not matter, isn't there something to prevent more than one ship of such a one-off type from appearing in a convoy? If the individual entries are irrelevant, why have more than one entry in the first place? The stock "Mutsuki" roster, for instance, has four individual entries, yet the IJN had twelve in service on 8/12/41, all of which had been sunk by December 1944 (though their stock DisappearanceDate is 19451231!!!!). Does the number of individual entries limit the maximum number of "Mutsukis" you can find escorting a convoy to four? Or the number of "Heito Marus" to three (three individual entries in the "Heito Maru" roster)? In short, what is the function of the individual ship entries, and their DOC and DOD, in the roster, if they have any function at all????
GerritJ9
08-27-10, 05:04 AM
You could also add the "Schliemann" to the Japanese tanker roster if you haven't done so already, though I have no idea whether she resembles anything the Japanese actually had in their merchant navy.
With ships that were one-offs, AppearanceDate and DisappearanceDate should then match DOC and DOD so no problems on that score...... but if number of individual entries in the roster does not matter, isn't there something to prevent more than one ship of such a one-off type from appearing in a convoy? If the individual entries are irrelevant, why have more than one entry in the first place? The stock "Mutsuki" roster, for instance, has four individual entries, yet the IJN had twelve in service on 8/12/41, all of which had been sunk by December 1944 (though their stock DisappearanceDate is 19451231!!!!). Does the number of individual entries limit the maximum number of "Mutsukis" you can find escorting a convoy to four? Or the number of "Heito Marus" to three (three individual entries in the "Heito Maru" roster)? In short, what is the function of the individual ship entries, and their DOC and DOD, in the roster, if they have any function at all????
The only way to do this is to explicitly name all ship classes in a group. This is what RSRDC does for most all ships. The exception is merchants, where many are called as a random type=102, or whatever.
The individual ships entries do nothing at all as far as I can tell. Sad, isn't it.
There are many cases in SH4 where clearly the devs had some great ideas that never got finished. Look at some of the damage descriptions for submarines... "bent shaft" all kinds of stuff you have never seen in game.
So, to be clear, if you write a campaign file, and put 4 random DDs in a group, you will get 4 random DDs that have the right appearance dates. Nothing else constrains them at all.
You could also add the "Schliemann" to the Japanese tanker roster if you haven't done so already, though I have no idea whether she resembles anything the Japanese actually had in their merchant navy.
She doesn't look like a japanese tanker.
In general, I'm only interested in adding ships that at least look like a few real japanese ships, since we'll see lots of them :)
Tyohei gets some gun platforms.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/tyohei.jpg
Her RL appearance:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/tyohei_RM.jpg
The rear one needs to come town a tad.
Note also that that picture above is about the best you can expect for realistic rec manuals.
RANT
You'd think the guys that made these models in the first place might have considered measuring the deck heights. You know, just get them in the "plausible" ballpark. 1.5 meters might be a good deck height for a Hobbit ship, but even the WW2 Japanese were not that short.
/RANT
Turns out there are a few ships near 400 feet long that are Raised 1-2-3 types with a long forward well deck---like Zinbu...
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/keisyo_maru_WIP.jpg
Maybe I can put some lipstick on this pig.
Nagara, OTOH...
Interestingly, there are MANY ships listed under 23a in ONI-208J, and quite a few are very close in size. There are varied mast arrangements, too. Quite a few have platforms built around the base of a goalpost mast. This looks distinctive, and should be easy to make (even for me).
They will be "kitbash" ships, but I can certainly make several variants of Nagara, though highly unlikely for the first release.
Still, it is heartening that at least one ship has room for decent numbers of variants.
Partially as a note to myself: later in the war, as we have some Standard Type ships to use, I will have to either decommission some ships, or make many variant types of Wartime Standards. Look at the Type E for example. While technically a coaster, they were pressed into service over longer trips, and there were hundreds of them. They should be incredibly common, but as you guys are aware by now, ships appear randomly 1/n where n is the count of same-classed ships in that nation's roster. If you have 20 merchants to pick from, but 2 types represented 80% of ships afloat, you'd need to have loads of clones of the 2 "popular" types to have anything like a realistic set of ships at sea.
It;s amazing that this wasn't fixed even for SH3. The only way around it is to eliminate variability, and explicitly name ship classes in the missions. They added "rare" types, but of course unless you use this in the mission files... that's a big change for RSRDC, for example. You'd need to move all the rare merchies to that type, then only change a % of groups to have a chance at some (or replace a few 102s in each group with a chance for rare tyoes, instead).
virtualpender
08-27-10, 10:24 PM
Whoa - that reworked ZINBU looks sweet!
Whoa - that reworked ZINBU looks sweet!
Still, that makes maybe 3 ships that look anything even remotely like Zinbu (and these 2 require new superstructures).
Three ships.
Ugh. Better to spend my time perhaps making all those similar to Nagara (over a dozen hulls)
keltos01
08-28-10, 02:05 AM
Tyohei gets some gun platforms.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/tyohei.jpg
Her RL appearance:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/tyohei_RM.jpg
The rear one needs to come town a tad.
Note also that that picture above is about the best you can expect for realistic rec manuals.
RANT
You'd think the guys that made these models in the first place might have considered measuring the deck heights. You know, just get them in the "plausible" ballpark. 1.5 meters might be a good deck height for a Hobbit ship, but even the WW2 Japanese were not that short.
/RANT
very very nice work Tater ! andI know how tedious it is at times :zzz:
keltos
Boy, Nagara stinks, too. Unless I get skilled faster than expected this will have to wait, but the superstructure is, well, awful. Looks like little to no research on what the merchants in question actually looked like.
Sigh.
Y'all know what Nagara looks like. This is her sister, Noto:
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/%7Eiwashige/notomarumod.jpg
Obviously the Akitsu shapes need to go away, but here is a more Nagara looking start...
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/nagara_wip.jpg
(yeah, the entire bridge needs to be curved more across the front)
Nagara right now:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/planesondeck.jpg
GerritJ9
08-29-10, 08:13 PM
I've found a list of Hog Islanders on the net and according to this list yard No. 1533, "Casagrande", became the Japanese "Nanei Maru" in 1942 and was sunk in 1944. No further specifics unfortunately- was she captured on the high seas, or scuttled and salvaged, and where/when? And, how/where was she sunk- any ideas on this one?
Oh well, it's another addition to the Japanese merchant lineup, even if she IS a one-off
cdrsubron7
08-29-10, 08:57 PM
I've found a list of Hog Islanders on the net and according to this list yard No. 1533, "Casagrande", became the Japanese "Nanei Maru" in 1942 and was sunk in 1944. No further specifics unfortunately- was she captured on the high seas, or scuttled and salvaged, and where/when? And, how/where was she sunk- any ideas on this one?
Oh well, it's another addition to the Japanese merchant lineup, even if she IS a one-off
I came across a reference to the Nanei Maru on Wikipedia. It seems she and four other ships were sunk by the USS Jack on February 19, 1944. Not sure if it's the same ship, just thought I'd post it.
Another reason it sucks that the unit names and dates don't work. You could have the ship go on and out of service to adjust how often it is seen
Updated all the skin start and end dates to tweak the appearance of the green skins (in June, 1944, all ships over 500 grt were ordered to be painted in that measure). What I did was to have all the grey and dazzle phase out over the next ~6 months after that.
GerritJ9
08-30-10, 03:53 AM
Curiouser and curiouser........... just found another list of Hog Islanders, which lists yard No. 1533 as "Manatawny", sunk by aircraft bombs off Manila in December 1941. Several Hog Islanders were converted to tankers in the early 1920s, including this one probably (also yard No. 1540, "Vaba", which became the British "Empire Dolphin" in 1941). Although there is no entry re salvage, it is entirely plausible that she was raised and repaired by the Japanese.
The Wikipedia entry for USS "Jack" lists "Nanei Maru" as one of four TANKERS sunk by "Jack" on 19/2/1944, which would tie in neatly with her probable conversion in the 1920s.
Of course, this would probably mean 3D work- new superstructures on the Hog Island hull (depending on how the conversion was done) so probably not worth the effort. Time to obtain a copy of "The Hog Islanders"..........
Just returned from my vacation time, and found this!!!!:yeah::yeah:
Tater and Sergei, you are making my nº 2 wish for SH4 -more merchants- come true (Nº 1 was Nisgeis' radar mod:D), I LOVE YOU GUYS
Have you taken a look at IABL's fabulous merchant fleet mod to see if there is something of use for you there? He has done so many different hulls and superstructures that maybe some parts could be combined to produce japanese ships. Just out of curiosity -and in case I can help a bit- Tater, could you make a brief list of the 5 more common ships in the japanese merchant Navy during WW2 so I can have a look and see if I find somewhere a reasonable candidate for modelling them? :up:
The 5 most common would all be Wartime Standard Types I imagine.
Lesse:
#1 873grt Type 2E 457 built. (someone volunteered to do this, but unless he chimes in I won't put him on the spot :) )
#2 873 grt Type 2ET 131 built (tanker version of the above 2E)
#3 6,600grt Type 2A: 131 built (includes 34 type 2AT tankers)
#4 2,300 grt Type 2D 103 built (we have a kitbash of this already in JMM from BftB, and I actually also have a good hull I did myself, but I need to make the bulwarks 3d, and do the superstructure still)
#5 could be a few standard types with ~30 hulls—or perhaps there is a prewar ship with nearly that number. Lesse for prewar types:
Ada Maru (24 hulls—Biyo would be a good start) leaps to mind, as does Ansyu Maru (a 23 MFM with 30 hulls built), Aden M. (30 MFM with 42 hulls), Or Amakasu M. (46 MKMF with 40+ hulls).
BTW, regarding IABL's MFM. Yeah, I have it, and have looked at the ships. There are a few that would certainly work as Japanese ships, and he gave permission to use a couple trawlers when I asked (they sort of look like small, steel Sea Trucks). I started messing with them, and I might throw them in as stand-ins til I have something closer.
My other problem is when I start looking at the SH4 merchants closely I realize how little serious research they did before making them. Some are OK, others are really quite bad (aside from the choices made as to which ship, but that's another rant :) )
OK :up:
Any links to websites or pictures of those ships?
OK :up:
Any links to websites or pictures of those ships?
Oh yes. I have a thread on wartime standards on the other forum:
http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1206
There are wartime std tankers as well, I have plans for some other ships I can scan for you.
The first post in this thread has a link to Mr. Iwashige's site, check out that. :yep:
The 5 most common would all be Wartime Standard Types I imagine.
Lesse:
#1 873grt Type 2E 457 built. (someone volunteered to do this, but unless he chimes in I won't put him on the spot :) )
#2 873 grt Type 2ET 131 built (tanker version of the above 2E)
^^^^I have plans for the 2E.
#3 6,600grt Type 2A: 131 built (includes 34 type 2AT tankers)
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~iwashige/hisakawamarumod.jpg
#4 2,300 grt Type 2D 103 built (we have a kitbash of this already in JMM from BftB, and I actually also have a good hull I did myself, but I need to make the bulwarks 3d, and do the superstructure still). My hull:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/rough_2D.jpg
#5 could be a few standard types with ~30 hulls—or perhaps there is a prewar ship with nearly that number. Lesse for prewar types:
Ada Maru (24 hulls—Biyo would be a good start) leaps to mind:
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/38MFM.jpg
Ansyu Maru (a 23 MFM with 30 hulls built):
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/23MFM.jpg
Aden M. (30 MFM with 42 hulls):
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/30MFM.jpg
Amakasu M. (46 MKMF with 40+ hulls).
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/46MKMF.jpg
virtualpender
08-30-10, 05:19 PM
ADEN MARU as posted by Tater just above gets my vote!
The standard class ships are great for late war but won't make big appearances until late in the game. What ONI referred to as the ADEN MARU class are actually the Kawasaki-type stock boats of which plenty were available as targets throughout the first three years of the war. Since Tater and one mystery contributor are already working on two of these standard vessels, adding another extremely common merchant to the early-war roster would be great!
Kawasaki Kisen KK, known throughout the shipping world as the "K" Line; it was founded in 1919 to own and manage a post-war [World War I] of ninety-six more or less identical standard freighters known in Japan's shipping industry as "stock boats."
Quote excerpted from Ugly Ducklings (http://www.amazon.com/Ugly-Ducklings-Japans-Liberty-Equivalents/dp/159114888X/) by Heal.
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~iwashige/mantaimaru.jpg
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~iwashige/chinamaru.jpg
Another large image
(http://www.west-point.org/family/japanese-pow/PhotoFile/Brazil_Maru_New.jpg)
Whichever ship you choose, Hitman, thanks in advance for joining Tater and Sergei with this project! :salute:
One reason I like adding the Standard types is that I can make ships that don't belong like Paula disappear entirely and not drop the target count :)
virtualpender
08-30-10, 06:39 PM
What about making the PAULA a "Rare Tanker?" Is that classification used in RSRDC?
No, not used inRSRDC so if we did that we could just make a special set of paths for her. Not impossible in the least as we are doing this for hospital ships.
I have plans for China Maru (Aden's sister).
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/China_Maru_plans-1.jpg
Larger image: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/China_Maru_plans.jpg
Good thing I have years of back issues of Model Graphix :) (which I only have because of Mr. Iwashige's fine work)
Excellent. So Aden's Maru would be right now the prioritary target :up:
I'll take a look at some free 3D models webs and at the hulls in SH3 and 4, and see what we can do about it.:shucks:
Whichever ship you choose, Hitman, thanks in advance for joining Tater and Sergei with this project! :salute:
I have almost nil modelling skills, I just will try to find some usable parts and may be deconstruct existing models with permision to isolate the proper parts, so that a new ship can be constructed from them. More than that I'm afraid that I will not be able to do.
I have been taking a look at the pictures. May be, just may be, the hulls are easy enough for me to rework an existing one in Misfit 3D. However, what I can't do is retexture them, but if I understood it correctly, Sergei can. :hmmm:
Oh, and I forgot ... as for ship silhouettes, a guy called Doublefox developed some time ago an interesting script that takes side pictures of existing models and outputs them in a format that looks a lot like hand drawn. Check this thread, from post #49 onwards: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=139607&page=4
You could try to contact him :up:
EDIT ---> The script needed is included in one of the downloads, if you can't get it just tell me, I should have it stored somewhere.
virtualpender
08-31-10, 04:43 AM
Hitman - a few more images which may be helpful. Looking forward to what you are able to assemble!
http://www.hongkongwardiary.com/images/600_WashingtonMaruebay.jpg
http://sites.google.com/site/powsofthejapanese/_/rsrc/1233928829091/Home/hellships-information-photos/pacific-maru/PacificMaruweb010.jpg
http://www.petemesley.com/images/Truk%2008%20550/San%20Francisco650.jpg
http://www.bluelagoondiveshop.com/Wrecks/San_Francisco_Maru/San%20Francisco%20Maru%2001.gif
http://www.west-point.org/family/japanese-pow/PhotoFile/Aden_Maru_Ueda.jpg
takeoffde
08-31-10, 07:47 AM
Hallo tatar, I always looking for new ship collection of american and japan merchant ships including various skins. It seems, I find the correct post. Please try to include all the single ships, where we can find in the subsim forum, if it is possible. That would be the best. I play **stock SH 4 1.5 add on**, and I really ask you to make your mod for this stock version, adding with JSGME. As a non programmer I have no idea, how much work it is, but that is really something, what the sim user /SH4 1.5 is looking for. Thanks for your good further work, appriciate. Best wishes from germany. Ahoi
keltos01
08-31-10, 10:23 AM
do you know, as they had AA merchant gunships platforms, if they also had sonars and dcs on some merchies ?
keltos
Yes to both. Hydrophones were widespread, as were DCs. The trick with the DCs is that they did not "aim" them, but rather just dropped them randomly when they knew ( thought) a sub was around.
In SH4, only unit types 0-4 will use DCs. What I'd like is a way to have them drop them randomly when "warned" of a sub.
Sailor Steve
08-31-10, 10:52 AM
Yes to both. Hydrophones were widespread, as were DCs. The trick with the DCs is that they did not "aim" them, but rather just dropped them randomly when they knew a sub was around.
In SH4, only unit types 0-4 will use DCs. What I'd like is a way to have them drop them randomly when "warned" of a sub.
That reminds me of a completely unrelated story. Back during the American Civil War the Union was blockading the mouth of the Mississippi river. The Confederates launched a night attack, and in the pitch black one Union ship reported that they started "firing for effect", which seems to imply that they shot blindly into the dark hoping to maybe hit something.
So it relates because I can picture the Japanese merchants dropping depth charges "for effect".
:rotfl2:
For effect means they have the target range. It means they are expecting to hit. Before firing for effect, they'd be ranging.
I have been taking a look at the pictures. May be, just may be, the hulls are easy enough for me to rework an existing one in Misfit 3D. However, what I can't do is retexture them, but if I understood it correctly, Sergei can. :hmmm:
The only flush-deck merchant we have to start with is War Melody. She'd need to be scaled down slightly I think.
The hard part on all these is the superstructure, actually. I an getting better with delftship, I think I can make decent hulls if need be.
I'm getting better with wings 3d, too. It's SLOW, though. And yes, sergei I count on sergei to be able to make maps, that part confuses me to no end.
War Melody is too pointy, needs to be a more bluff bow.
keltos01
08-31-10, 02:22 PM
Do plan to make the AA gunship that sometimes escorted convoys ?
keltos
Do plan to make the AA gunship that sometimes escorted convoys ?
keltos
XPGs? Possibly a later release. The trouble with that would be that the only gunboat used in RSRDC could be replaced (it doesn't look right, anyway). If I did that, then I'd simply make a new ship with the same name.
To get variants would mean major campaign changes (something I don't want to do).
For stock... quite frankly, I won't be putting 5 seconds into anything for the stock campaign—so anyone using the stock campaign will be SOL. It would be pointless anyway, as you'd have no way to assign them to convoys unless you called them DDs—then they'd show in IJN TFs, too.
keltos01
08-31-10, 03:11 PM
darn I can't seem to find it anymore... it was a merchant ship retrofitted into an AA platform, I think they built 4 of them, and they were designed as convoy escorts, basically a merchant with a whole bunch of AA guns.
keltos
Frankly, it's a low priority. Players command submarines. AA platforms? Meh.
I try to think the way I think the devs SHOULD HAVE. "Bang for the buck."
Make a new ship? What ship is MOST NEEDED?
Any hull with less than 30-40 examples is not work much effort. Perhaps it might make the top 100 needed vessels, but it's near the bottom of that list. See what I mean?
In terms of warships, the most needed are REAL Kaibokan (the Type B, C, and D I did for RSRDC are "acceptable" but that's about it.). We also need a real Matsu.
keltos01
08-31-10, 03:36 PM
yep. just saying if you come across one of those I'm interrested in any intel.
I did the same for the subs : most numerous class first.
regards
keltos
Sailor Steve
08-31-10, 03:56 PM
For effect means they have the target range. It means they are expecting to hit. Before firing for effect, they'd be ranging.
I know what it means now - I worked on the gun line in Vietnam. The problem was these were smoothbore cannon with an effective range of maybe 200 yards, and it was described as a pitch-black night, and other reports said they couldn't see anything; hence my amusement.
More on-topic: I think this is a great project.
virtualpender
08-31-10, 04:25 PM
Whoa! Just came across a startling number that may add a new priority to this project. From December 1942 through the end of the war, the Japanese built 2,278 standard wooden sea trucks of the 100-, 150-, and 250-ton variety.
:o
I knew it was a lot but that is a startling number - almost as many as U.S. LIBERTY ships. Definitely should be a large percentage of the in-game contacts from mid '44 forward.
PS: Tater - I know these are your images - just posting here for others.
http://www.ww2shots.com/gallery/d/18554-1/ships22-ww2shots-navy.jpg
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/SD_sea_trucks.jpg
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/SD1.jpg
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/SD2.jpg
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/sea_truck_sm.jpg
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/possible_sea_truck_sm.jpg
virtualpender
08-31-10, 04:58 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2412/2174139302_84884a0067_b.jpg
Yeah, I know the biggest are the sugar dogs, but for submarine targets, slightly larger hulls are better. Remember that to slide into the campaign, they need to be type 101 (tanker) or type 102 (cargo).
Throw sugar dogs in there, and we'd pretty much have to call them type 104. As type=1022 they don't work (they would foul up convoys, etc). They won't be seen in game in any numbers unless we also make all the traffic. If you look at my old posts, I've been pitching them for a while, but I now think ~1000 tons is the smallest to be on the first order list (The type 2E at 873 grt).
A nice thing about the 2E and 2D (2300 tons) is they look nearly identical. :)
I'm using Free so far. New ships (other than those we've been given permission to use from BftB) will be in a subsequent release. I think we'd rather get it out there faster so people can enjoy sergei's work.
BTW, SS, I simply didn't "get" the story the way you told it. I imagine the jap merchant skippers filed reports (if they lived through the sub attack) that claimed they sank 10 submarines with their merchant-deployed DCs ;)
Privateer, if you see this, any ideas? (he's pretty resourceful with novel uses of controllers).
virtualpender
08-31-10, 08:33 PM
In case it will be useful to either Hitman or Tater, here are the Kawasaki standard-type ships (so called ADEN MARU's) from the 1942 edition of ONI 208-J.
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/ONI/208Jp181.jpg
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/ONI/208Jp179.jpg
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/ONI/208Jp180.jpg
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/ONI/208Jp182.jpg
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/ONI/208Jp183.jpg
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/ONI/208Jp189.jpg
Nice. My hull needs a little work, but delftship is great. It even tells me the displacement, so I know if I need to tweak it.
Sledgehammer427
08-31-10, 09:41 PM
are you using the Delftship demo, or did you get a full version?
very ambitious project, looks like a must have!
I'm using Free so far. New ships (other than those we've been given permission to use from BftB) will be in a subsequent release. I think we'd rather get it out there faster so people can enjoy sergei's work.
BTW, SS, I simply didn't "get" the story the way you told it. I imagine the jap merchant skippers filed reports (if they lived through the sub attack) that claimed they sank 10 submarines with their merchant-deployed DCs ;)
Sailor Steve
08-31-10, 11:51 PM
BTW, SS, I simply didn't "get" the story the way you told it. I imagine the jap merchant skippers filed reports (if they lived through the sub attack) that claimed they sank 10 submarines with their merchant-deployed DCs ;)
Sorry about that.
The reports I've read only indicate that depth charges were dropped. They don't even mention the hydrophones. It sounds to me like you don't have a copy of the Wartime Convoy Records. If you want one, PM me with your email address.
No I have them.
They did just dump them over the side, they were not aimed. My point was that in general, the japanese grossly overestimated the effect of ANY attack (presumably even if unaimed).
Heck, they sank Lexington 3-4 times! ;)
So merchants had hydrophones, but when a ship was hit it would be a "mad minute" where they'd all throw some DCs over the side (which cannot have helped detection any for nearby escorts, lol).
Thanks Virtualpender, it certainly does help as one of he aerial photos reveals a detail I was looking for :up:
Sledgehammer427
09-01-10, 11:38 AM
My point was that in general, the japanese grossly overestimated the effect of ANY attack (presumably even if unaimed).
Heck, they sank Lexington 3-4 times! ;)
I was at the USS Intrepid the other day and I looked at the killboard, they apparently sank 4 Yamato-class battleships.
I had thought that merchants sounded collision alarms when someone was attacked, but perhaps it is just the DDs.
Type 0-4 units will fire star shells, AND use DCs. They detect a sub, then shoot the star shells, and move to attack. Merchants can carry hydrophones, etc, but cannot attack (nor can warships of type>4, even though in the case of the IJN virtually all were armed with DCs).
Wonder if there is a way to set up a hydrophone that drops DCs? Sort of like an active pinging, only it hears anything, then dumps some DCs...
Well ... Aden Maru is taking shape :), but you better get someone that can retexture it, as I have done some really freaking modelling :har:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6641/adenmarutest.th.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/adenmarutest.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
keltos01
09-01-10, 02:47 PM
Well ... Aden Maru is taking shape :), but you better get someone that can retexture it, as I have done some really freaking modelling :har:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6641/adenmarutest.th.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/adenmarutest.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
it's easier if you add details nodes in s3d with parts of the ship like the cranes etc.. which can then allow for a separate texture/AO map than having it all in one piece.
looks really good btw !
keltos
virtualpender
09-01-10, 02:55 PM
How in the world did you do that so quickly, Hitman?
Wow. :up:
She looks really good. If you are open to comment, I believe the intakes amidships are a little too tall. I think they should be just slightly higher than the bridge. Also, I think the bow could be just a bit more vertical and less raked. Or you could just leave her exactly as is and she would be fantastic!
Very nice work!
My suggestion would be to cut the ventilators off completely (don;t worry, I can do it). Then I'll place them in the dat.
Also, if variants had different ventilator set ups, they can be changed (or a random axis rotation put on them, since they turned to face the breeze in RL).
it's easier if you add details nodes in s3d with parts of the ship like the cranes etc.. which can then allow for a separate texture/AO map than having it all in one piece.
Yes, but I have just kept more or less the details that were in one of Sh4's stock ships ... there are still nodes for many objects like lifeboats, masts, funnel, etc.
How in the world did you do that so quickly, Hitman?
Basically it's constructed using parts of other SH4 ships. The hulls is from Hakusika, reshaped to look properly, the superstructures are a combination of Hakusika and Biyo, and so on. I look for what I need, isolate the part by deleting the rest of the model, and then combine and reshape them. Makes for easy and quick modelling, much more than starting from scratch.
If you are open to comment, I believe the intakes amidships are a little too tall. I think they should be just slightly higher than the bridge. Also, I think the bow could be just a bit more vertical and less raked. Or you could just leave her exactly as is and she would be fantastic!
I also think that, but this is more or less what the plans show. It's because teh funnel is missing that you see them so tall, when the funnel and the cranes are in place you'll see the ship's line much better.
Another thing to consider is that even ships of the same class have some differences. My model is more or less a combination of several of the ships, so it serves better for representing the whole class.
My suggestion would be to cut the ventilators off completely (don;t worry, I can do it). Then I'll place them in the dat.
Also, if variants had different ventilator set ups, they can be changed (or a random axis rotation put on them, since they turned to face the breeze in RL).
Sure, no problem. I can isolate all the ventilators in a separate model, so you can simply link it to a node and have the arrangement change easily.
But I don't want to further hijack the thread, the teaser was about showing that this mod might even stretch more than originally expected :yeah:
virtualpender
09-01-10, 03:35 PM
I'm still in awe of how quickly you turned that out. Not knowing a thing about 3d modelling, it seems you are part-magician, part-artist.
Found another great photo which may be helpful:
http://i45.tinypic.com/2ko3r4.jpg
Madox58
09-01-10, 05:26 PM
@Hitman,
Nice! I see you like Misfit also.
:yeah:
@tater,
Looking a something else for SH4 right now so I'll test a thought or 2 out
while I'm messing about.
The visual part you'd see in Game is easy enuff.
And I have a candidate for a trigger in mind to start with.
For the DCs? Yeah, that is easy. The trick is getting a merchant ship to drop a DC—ideally for this theater, totally unaimed. :)
iambecomelife
09-01-10, 06:57 PM
This is a very interesting thread for me. :D I have both ONI-208J and the equivalent wartime manual for Japanese small craft, so if you guys need pictures of any specific units let me know.
I have both of those as well, IABL. Thank you, though.
If you have any bright ideas, or feel like making something, by all means, join in the conversation.
I've looked at the MFM mod you made, with the idea of figuring out which might be appropriate for Japan, but there were so many to look at it was daunting :)
A sea truck would still be cool...
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/japcoastalshipssharp-1.jpg
A sea truck would still be cool...Hmmmm looks easy to do with my technique of reworking existing ship parts :hmmm:
The only thing that worries me so far is texturing the models I reowrk; if that turns out to be a nightmare it could be even less time consuming to start models from scratch for someone who knows his job. But if the texturing problem is solved, I might start Ada Maru and/or the Sea Trucks when I finish Aden Maru. Now I've got the hang of it and am going quick (Which should be very telling about the poor quality of my work :har: but oh well it's better than not having the ships at all)
@Hitman,
Nice! I see you like Misfit also.
:yeah:Cheers mate it was you who pointed me to it, and it is really easy to use :up: Again thanks!
I'm still in awe of how quickly you turned that out. Not knowing a thing about 3d modelling, it seems you are part-magician, part-artist.Nope, I'm part butcherer (Ripping off existing models) and part Dr. Frankenstein (Combining parts previosly ripped off) :har:
Thanks for the picture :up:
I have added the cranes, lowered the ventilator, cleaned some unnecessary stuff and added the stern superstructure. Only the two cabins on the rear are missing. When I do them, I'll send the model to Tater and Sergei so they can evaluate it and look at the texturing problem.
http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/6641/adenmarutest.th.jpg (http://img806.imageshack.us/i/adenmarutest.jpg/)
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/9298/adenmarutest2.th.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/adenmarutest2.jpg/)
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8036/adenmarutest3.th.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/adenmarutest3.jpg/)
Looking nice. Between us I think we can get her going.
virtualpender
09-02-10, 08:17 PM
Dang, Hitman! Looks great!
Did you have to rework the stern at all? It looks perfect.
Can't wait for your sea truck :D
Stern is a bit reworked, yes. (All the hull has been, in fact. I had to curve the bow upwards, resize it and revise the stern)
We are having some trouble with the materials of the model, as they dissapear when I merge parts from different models in Misfit 3D. Anyone has any suggestion on how to keep them?
Madox58
09-03-10, 08:26 AM
I'm not sure what's causeing this for you but I have a few ideas.
I've noticed problems with the mtl stuff the way S3D states them in some programs.
This is not a problem with S3D!
Just some programs are weird that way.
I always edit the mtl file and obj file to eliminate the long path to the textures.
Then place the textures in my working folder.
Example:
From the .mtl file,
newmtl 8_-_Default_facb71f954e29491
Ka 0.5773502588 0.5773502588 0.5773502588
Kd 0.5773502588 0.5773502588 0.5773502588
Ks 0.5773502588 0.5773502588 0.5773502588
d 1.0
Ns 0.4509803951
illum 2
map_Kd C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\SilentHunterIII\data\Air\ALB_B17Fort ress\fortressmk2.tga
changed to,
newmtl anyname
Ka 0.5773502588 0.5773502588 0.5773502588
Kd 0.5773502588 0.5773502588 0.5773502588
Ks 0.5773502588 0.5773502588 0.5773502588
d 1.0
Ns 0.4509803951
illum 2
map_Kd fortressmk2.tga
Example:
From the matching obj file,
# 2419 texture coordinates
usemtl 8_-_Default_facb71f954e29491
changed to,
# 2419 texture coordinates
usemtl anyname
IF the usemtl statement is still in the obj?
You can edit the existing mtl file and obj file to re-attach the missing textures.
I can look at your files if you wish.
:salute:
Thanks for the help Privateer. I've found that my problem doesn't just appear when merging. What I do is make changes in the model and then save with a new name in .obj extension, and it normally generates automatically a paralell .mat file with the same name. But at some step, I'm not sure if it's after merging or not, the materials file does no longer appear when saving. Puzzles me why :-?
My ignorance is such that I also still have no idea of what that material file contains, I suspect it's reference to a texture that has to be applied on the different polygon faces, but I simply have no idea.
I know I can make a mesh that looks OK, but if it doesn't any longer have mat file, will it be too complicated to retexture? I used to retexture modified models in Zanoza Zmodeller, but that program does not open files in the same format as S3D outputs them, so I'm stuck with my inability to retexture the models I create.:damn:
EDIT:
OK me idiot opened with Notepad the mtl file and looked inside, now I know what you meant Jeff ... *sigh*
What about wings3d, also free? I can make UV maps in that.
BTW, I got it in the dat to have a look (missed turning off one vent for the screenie, lol):
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/aden_v1.jpg
Hitman, one issue, her fo'csle is raised. It needs to be flush.
Looks like you used hakusika as the base model.
Yup Hakusika for the hull and upper part of the main bridge, Biyo for rear bridge and cargo bay decks, cranes, etc :yep:
Is that OK, or does it give any problem in duplicating textures or whatever?
Looks superb with masts, funnel and rigging :yeah:
her fo'csle is raised. It needs to be flush
Sorry, what is the fo'csle? :06:
Forecastle. The bow. Aden is "flush decked"---there is a bulwark at the bow, but no raised bit.
That helps, actually. I might try doing something similar---you were right to pick that ship, BTW, in plan view she is VERY close aside from the raised forecastle.
virtualpender
09-03-10, 12:20 PM
You guys are amazing - seriously. Less than a week from conception to a near finished accurate model.
Thanks for putting the time in to this mod!
Ah I think that now I see what you mean. Yes, the bow has the raised sides but NOT the second deck in a more elevated position that is accessed via stairs :yep:
Sadly, that seems to be a difficult thing to change for me, as there is no lower deck below the rised one. But I'll take a look and see what I can do :hmmm:
Ah I think that now I see what you mean. Yes, the bow has the raised sides but NOT the second deck in a more elevated position that is accessed via stairs :yep:
Sadly, that seems to be a difficult thing to change for me, as there is no lower deck below the rised one. But I'll take a look and see what I can do :hmmm:
I might be able to do that, actually.
Just tried, it's not bad.
Thankfully it was easy enough to do :yeah:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/762/correcteddeck.th.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/i/correcteddeck.jpg/)
I'll PM you the new one in some minutes ...
Would be easiest of there was a way to keep the materials intact. Otherwise I can try to map them myself, but I'm semi-clueless :)
I was looking at RSRDC last night, and noticed that zinbu is called a lot in convoys explicitly. I have a mind to replace all of them with Aden when this is done, since there were 90 ish aden hulls, and ONE Zinbu in RL. They are similar sizes and speeds, too. Zinbu would then only show as random, single merchants (as it should be). This of course needs to be done in the text files only with RSRDC, using the editor will blow them up.
iambecomelife
09-03-10, 01:05 PM
What about wings3d, also free? I can make UV maps in that.
BTW, I got it in the dat to have a look (missed turning off one vent for the screenie, lol):
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/aden_v1.jpg
Hitman, one issue, her fo'csle is raised. It needs to be flush.
Wow; that makes me drool. I heard that you were using some re-uv mapped hulls - can this hull support text or national flags? It is an excellent generic ship that would be useful in many neutral countries' fleets. Load lines & plimsoll markings would also look interesting, if they are possible.
In any case, I think that because of the modifications I have done to the hull, the texture would appear completely distorted. So I suppose that it will need a full remapping again. After looking at what the .mat file contains, I suspect that it will only refer to one external texture file, so that could be the reason why it gets lost when merging models. This model, if it conserved the materials, would need two textures instead of 1 as all other ships, one from Hakusika, and one from Biyo.
[EDIT]
BTW since you got it into the dat, does it actually load up and show in the game? (Even if with flat black texture)
Wow; that makes me drool. I heard that you were using some re-uv mapped hulls - can this hull support text or national flags? It is an excellent generic ship that would be useful in many neutral countries' fleets. Load lines & plimsoll markings would also look interesting, if they are possible.
IABL, what sergei has done with the other models, is redo the AO map so that the hull is more or less continuous, with a separate left and right side. So using the AO map, flags are possible, for example.
It would of course be trivial to add a flag in the EQP file for a ship as well.
Make a rectangle object that is flag sized. Put it in a dat in the Library/ShipParts folder, and assign a texture. Make as many copies as you need flags in that dat (just like the flags dat, only unanimated). Play Y nodes in the right spot on the side of the hull, then use the eqp file to add the flags. You can then have ships with cfgdates up to the point they discontinued flags with flags, then after that, no flags. Easy.
In any case, I think that because of the modifications I have done to the hull, the texture would appear completely distorted. So I suppose that it will need a full remapping again. After looking at what the .mat file contains, I suspect that it will only refer to one external texture file, so that could be the reason why it gets lost when merging models. This model, if it conserved the materials, would need two textures instead of 1 as all other ships, one from Hakusika, and one from Biyo.
[EDIT]
BTW since you got it into the dat, does it actually load up and show in the game? (Even if with flat black texture)
It shows with the texture all crazy from _T01.dds. I'll see what I can do with it over the weekend.
Right now, I think our focus will be to get a version 1 out the door with the extant SH4 ships, perhaps with the BftB ships in there as well (most importantly the Road_schooner that I have altered to be a (very rough) Type 2D.
A later rev will have new ships. Aden being a very important addition, frankly—so important, as I said above, I'm seriously considering dumping all the RSRDC Zinbus in favor of her. I can have multiple clones, too, and EQP changes for various wartime periods. She's incredibly useful.
One change I'd like to try on the model (after I get her in game with a texture!) will be to make the bow more "bluff." I just need to select a few control points even on both sides, then scale them out in X to make her less rakish at the bow (in cross section).
virtualpender
09-03-10, 02:16 PM
I was looking at RSRDC last night, and noticed that zinbu is called a lot in convoys explicitly. I have a mind to replace all of them with Aden when this is done, since there were 90 ish aden hulls, and ONE Zinbu in RL. They are similar sizes and speeds, too. Zinbu would then only show as random, single merchants (as it should be). This of course needs to be done in the text files only with RSRDC, using the editor will blow them up.
Tater - let me know where to find the files to edit in RSRDC and I can tackle this. Text editing I can actually manage. I'd very much like to contribute to this project but modelling and skinning are out of my league.
Right now, I think our focus will be to get a version 1 out the door with the extant SH4 ships, perhaps with the BftB ships in there as well (most importantly the Road_schooner that I have altered to be a (very rough) Type 2D.
A later rev will have new ships. Aden being a very important addition, frankly—so important, as I said above, I'm seriously considering dumping all the RSRDC Zinbus in favor of her. I can have multiple clones, too, and EQP changes for various wartime periods. She's incredibly useful.
I don't want by any means to increase your currently huge worload with Aden Maru; I am happy to wait for the inclusion of her in this mod, and if we solve the textures matter I'll happily do some more models for the project :yeah: and Ada Maru stays on top of the list. I'll try to work it out exclusively from Biyo, and keeping the original Biyo texture references, so it does not need a full retexturing.
Right now I'm searching information and trying to learn about texturing and what program would be better to use for it. Pity that the old Zmodeller is not usable for this, as I had already understood it :wah:
Love this project :salute:
can this hull support text or national flags?
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4997/hakusikaciv03aociv01.jpg
Yep. Did this one by making the base texture very light grey, then the AO black with the Japanese flag in it.
Text on the side of the hull is also possible.
Load lines & plimsoll markings would also look interesting, if they are possible.
Interesting idea. I can see no reason why not.
Would be easier if they were in black, then I could just overlay the tex file.
Or are they always white?
Images I have seen show them as white, looking something like this.
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7084/kissui.jpg
If this did make it in, it would be for a later release.
Tater - let me know where to find the files to edit in RSRDC and I can tackle this. Text editing I can actually manage. I'd very much like to contribute to this project but modelling and skinning are out of my league.
I've actually already done it, but it's a side mod right now. :)
virtualpender
09-03-10, 02:46 PM
I've actually already done it, but it's a side mod right now. :)
I should have known!
If there is anything else "low-speed" I can do to help just let me know :)
In any case, I guess that once this mod is finished, Lurker will be the first to be willing to add it to RSRD :up:
Mwahhahahaahahhahaha!
I retexured her.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/Aden.jpg
This started with the stock ship I think, so it wioll need a new AO map.
I also need to rescale and move some textures, but I think I grok it, it's just loads of work.
Hitman, knowing what parts to use, could you do it again with a new 3d model from JMM, or would that be a major PITA?
Before you do ANY others, let me get that stuff to you, then the AO will be easier on sergei.
Woot!
I retexured her.
This started with the stock ship I think, so it will need a new AO map
Now that I do know how to do.
Can generate one in 3ds Max.
The stern deck house should be a rectangle, not curved.
Sergei, I need to spend a while really doing the texture map. The pieces need to be moved and scaled onto the texture so the doors are the right size, etc. I can do it, it just takes a while (I'm slow). I can rebuild the masts so that the rigging is the right size, too.
Also, the two rectangle deck houses need to be flush with the edge of the hull.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/aden_stern.jpg
You can see my crap texture there. Now I know what to do, I can fix it for sure.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/China_Maru_plans-1.jpg
You can see that the stern deckhouse has rounded, rear corners, but it's still a rectangle. And the two deck houses will replace the rail where they meet.
Madox58
09-03-10, 03:11 PM
Nice work Guys!
:yeah:
If your useing 3D Max?
You might want to look into Texporter.
It's a handy and free plug-in for doing some nice UV work.
:yep:
If your useing 3D Max?
You might want to look into Texporter.
It's a handy and free plug-in for doing some nice UV work.
:yep:
Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look.
Mwahhahahaahahhahaha!
I retexured her.
Yeeeehawwwww :yeah::yeah::yeah:
And all this work ... to end up putting her in the bottom! Ironic, isn't it? :har:
Hitman, knowing what parts to use, could you do it again with a new 3d model from JMM, or would that be a major PITA?
It would be a major PITA, but if needed I can do it :doh:
Now that I do know how to do.
Can generate one in 3ds Max.
Hopefully this means I do not need to redo the model!
You can see that the stern deckhouse has rounded, rear corners, but it's still a rectangle. And the two deck houses will replace the rail where they meet.
Plans available do not always match, and photos (Which show the real thing) are also sometimes misleading. Lots of variants from the same hull, too :damn:
Before you do ANY others, let me get that stuff to you, then the AO will be easier on sergei.
Send me Biyo Maru for starters, I have already a plan to do Ada Maru from it :D and this time it might be much easier to remap, as I will probably only use Biyo.
BTW @virtualpender: If you can also search and provide plans and pictures of Ada Maru like you did with Aden, it would be most helpful :up:
I started an Ada kitbash myself all in S3D :)
Will up for you tonight!
Madox58
09-03-10, 04:21 PM
@Hitman,
The more 3D work you do?
The easier it gets!
And as you kit bash Units?
You'll end up with lots of handy parts laying around to speed things up.
:yep:
Heck!
You can even take parts from SH5 Units now.
:haha:
Yup, that's what I'm realizing right now :yep:
But SH5 I do not own, however stock SH3 and SH4 have plenty of stuff to do many new ships.
I have waited years for IABL's SH3 MFM to be completed, but I won't wait that much for a JMM for SH4, so I decided to start helping myself as soon as I saw this thread :DL
Nisgeis
09-03-10, 04:27 PM
Got any pics of an actual 2E?
Madox58
09-03-10, 04:35 PM
Yup, that's what I'm realizing right now :yep:
But SH5 I do not own, however stock SH3 and SH4 have plenty of stuff to do many new ships.
Soon I'll have the code completed to rip the AO mapping from the SH5 files also.
I expect to see a flood of Units from SH5 ported to SH4 soon.
I believe the SOM Group has already started?
Got any pics of an actual 2E?
I must, someplace. I'll look
Model Graphix June 2009 has a 2E by Iwashige in it.
I will buy it (take a while to get here from Japan, though). Calling a friend who might have that issue as well.
virtualpender
09-03-10, 09:37 PM
BTW @virtualpender: If you can also search and provide plans and pictures of Ada Maru like you did with Aden, it would be most helpful :up:
Hitman, it sounds like Tater is sending you his version of the ADA already so I suspect I'm too late. If it will help, here is the best image I've been able to turn up so far. This is the vessel that was renamed KUSUYAMA MARU.
KUSUYAMA MARU
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/_DAMx/image/10/152/a636439h.jpg
virtualpender
09-03-10, 10:17 PM
A few more of the ADA's. These are much tougher to find. They are a British standard design ship from WWI of the "War B-class." Some of these started life as WAR OSTRICH, WAR BOMBER, and WAR LEOPARD. You'd think you'd be able to find more and better images with that lineage.
There also seems to be significantly greater variability in the appearance with this class. If you note the comments in ONI 208-J some had narrow kingposts while other have conventional stick masts.
I'll keep digging.
BENNEVIS
http://www.battlefleetmodels.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/entworth.jpg
SINKYO MARU - note the goal post masts
http://www.jsu.or.jp/siryo/map/allmariana/ecaroline/ectracketc/sinkyo_d.jpg
UNKNOWN
http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1944/pictures/102029/102029105.jpg
Done right, we can use Y nodes, and have the masts vary with nothing more than the eqp files.
virtualpender
09-03-10, 10:59 PM
More ADA's. The first is UTIDE MARU (ONI was wrong - she was actually UCHIDE MARU). The other two are BENNEVIS:
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2381/bata01.jpg
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20Ba/slides/Bennevis-09.jpg
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20Ba/slides/Bennevis-02.jpg
virtualpender
09-03-10, 11:02 PM
Another ADA image.
Hitman - I'm still trying to find a good high angle or overhead shot for you but no joy so far. :dead:
UTIDE (UCHIDE) MARU
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bSGWCPBUkFY/SwuxRCRdvuI/AAAAAAAAHO8/BavN1nK1GmQ/s1600/bata.bmp
virtualpender
09-03-10, 11:07 PM
Note to Sergei - I'm sure you already can tell and don't need me to point it out but all of the above images of the ADA-class (except SINKYO MARU) are from their pre-Japanese owners so ignore these for texturing purposes.
Again, I'm sure you know that already so forgive me for pointing out the obvious. :D
2d to last one in post 16 has a different looking stern. Not a "cruiser" stern, but it has less "counter" to it to my eye.
virtualpender
09-04-10, 12:28 AM
Actually, all of the BENNEVIS images in that color scheme look funny in the stern now that you mention it. Must be a different BENNEVIS (even though rest of the vessel seems broadly correct). I'm going to remove all of those but the overhead view to help minimize confusion.
Thanks for keeping me honest, Tater.
Type 2Es (some are tanker versions I think).
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SCAN0022.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SCAN0020.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SCAN0019.jpg
keltos01
09-04-10, 02:07 AM
on the one before last one can see ? 3 AA guns but none manned ?
keltos
Nisgeis
09-04-10, 02:23 AM
That helps a lot. Still might need a bit of artistic license. I'll have a go tomorrow.
Hitman, it sounds like Tater is sending you his version of the ADA already so I suspect I'm too late
No, don't worry, I haven't yet got anything and pics always help a lot fine tuning details. From Ada we seem to lack any plans except the ONI silhouettes, hence any picture will be of help.
From what I'm learning about the japanese merchant fleet, seems that in the 1930s lots of it was composed of older european ships bought 2nd hand and revised. Interesting, I would have thought they had more own designs, since they had many big shipyards. For battleships much of this was also true, as the older classes were essentially british designs, and many times also construction.
The bottom line is that many of these ships could also be useful for IABL's WW1 conversion, which makes it double worth the effort of doing them :up:
keltos01
09-04-10, 04:23 AM
No, don't worry, I haven't yet got anything and pics always help a lot fine tuning details. From Ada we seem to lack any plans except the ONI silhouettes, hence any picture will be of help.
I agree with that wholeheartedly !!!
The bottom line is that many of these ships could also be useful for IABL's WW1 conversion, which makes it double worth the effort of doing them :up:affirmative !
and even for us, IJN side I mean, more ships means a better immersion feel
keltos
Spike88
09-04-10, 05:59 AM
This mod makes me salivate. :yeah:
GerritJ9
09-04-10, 09:10 AM
According to this list: http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/WWlStandardBuilt.htm#Shipindex the Japanese obtained a considerable number of the standard British-built type Cs pre-war, some in the 1920s but also a number around 1938. No less than 14 served under the Japanese flag during the Pacific war so although not as numerous as the later Japanese standard types the type could be a useful addition. The type was also used by the British, Italians, Germans and Soviets (plus by the neutral Spaniards and others).
Basic specs: 3000 gross ton dry cargo ship, overall length 342ft, beam 46.5ft, single screw, speed 11.5 knots. Looks like I'm going to have to find a copy of "British Standard Ships of World War I" for more info.
"War Beach" became "Sat(s)uma Maru", sunk 11/2/1944.
"War Beacon (II)" became "Seikai Maru", sunk 24/8/1942.
"War Breeze (II)" became "Kiriha Maru", sunk 6/3/1943.
"War Brosna (II)" became "Daisyu Maru", sunk 22/11/1943.
"War Delta" became "Kenkoku Maru", sunk 13/10/1943.
"War Harbour (II)" became "Woosung Maru", sunk 17/5/1943.
"War Island" became "Mohoma Maru", sunk 15/3/1943.
"War Mist (II)" became "Yasukuni Maru", sunk 21/1/1944.
"War Palace" became "Seitai Maru", sunk 20/8/1943.
"War Simoom" became "Akas(h)i Maru", sunk 28/9/1943.
"War Sphere" became "Nikko Maru", sunk 17/1/1944.
"War Spray" became "Tamahine Maru", sunk 5/6/1944.
"War Surf" became "Urazio Maru", sunk 30/10/1942.
"War Tolka" became "Tenzan Maru", sunk 11/11/1942.
Haven't found any photos or drawings yet unfortunately :(
on the one before last one can see ? 3 AA guns but none manned ?
keltos
The portside one above the bridge has guys next to it. These are all under attack by B-25 strafers. Manning the pitiful AA guns is suicide. Being on the boat is suicide, frankly. One B-25 bores in with 12 0.50 cals firing to suppress AA, and frequently a 2d attacks from a different angle just with guns to do the same.
The japanese built mostly their own ships. They started buying European, but by the 30s they were a major producer of merchant shipping. They start really taking on a japanese character, too (I think japanese merchant shipping becomes quite pretty, actually).
GerritJ9
09-04-10, 10:00 AM
Found some photos of British standard C type "War Highway" in her various guises here: http://www.teesships.freeuk.com/1eforie.htm
Seems she was still in "existence" a few years ago!
iambecomelife
09-04-10, 10:32 AM
No, don't worry, I haven't yet got anything and pics always help a lot fine tuning details. From Ada we seem to lack any plans except the ONI silhouettes, hence any picture will be of help.
From what I'm learning about the japanese merchant fleet, seems that in the 1930s lots of it was composed of older european ships bought 2nd hand and revised. Interesting, I would have thought they had more own designs, since they had many big shipyards. For battleships much of this was also true, as the older classes were essentially british designs, and many times also construction.
The bottom line is that many of these ships could also be useful for IABL's WW1 conversion, which makes it double worth the effort of doing them :up:
They actually had quite a few modern designs wholly constructed by domestic shipbuilders. Around 1925-1941 a very large number of moderncargo ships and tankers entered service, due in part to subsidies - apparently, the gov't realized they would soon be at war with the European colonial powers, and possibly America.
Thanks for posting the pics of the British "War" merchants, BTW - I want to design one for my own mod (or I may end up using your variant with permission). Although some were heavily modified it's easy to tell what they looked like in WWI.
@Tater and Sergei, are the japanese ships the only ones retextured? Or the allied ships also? I might be interested in using parts of allied ships, so I need to know. Also, could either of you send me the .dat file of the revised Zinbu Maru? I want to compare the hull with the one I'm working on right now, could be even better.
virtualpender
09-04-10, 12:14 PM
I'm starting to figure out that ONI just lumped all of the former British WAR Type B's into a single class they titled ADA's but the reality is that the Type B's were built by different yards in different countries at different times and hence these can only very loosely be considered a "class."
I think this is rather good news for this project because it gives Hitman and Tater considerable creative latitude to introduce variability. Different ventilators, different masts, even different plating around the deckhouse. No matter what you do, it really won't be wrong.
And for Sergei, a couple of these were seized from the Chinese just before the war began so you can probably deviate from the standard Japanese civilian skin theme of white over black and play with something a bit different.
Anyway another image showing a third mast configuration complete with crow's nests:
HOKUTAI MARU
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/images/4/4d/Forafric_02.jpg
Masts are easy. If we plan ahead, we can simply place a Y node and have eqp variants.
@Tater and Sergei, are the japanese ships the only ones retextured? Or the allied ships also?
Only planning on changing the Japanese ships.
See PM.
OK, thanks :up:
Ada Maru has now her hull completed. This was a PITA, much more than I thought initially, but anyway I'm more or less satisfied with the result (Mind you, it's still lightyears behind what a professional would do ...).
It's based on sergei's textured model, and has still the materials, so it should be easy to retexture to prevent distortions. If all goes well, the superstructure will be done entirely using Biyo parts, and as such will also need little rework and will already refer to the proper texture.
Pic of WIP:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/180/adamaruwip.th.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/adamaruwip.jpg/)
Now off to have a shower and dinner, I won't continue working on her until tomorrow or monday. :salute:
http://www.shipscribe.com/mckellar/pix/1022.html
http://www.shipscribe.com/mckellar/Contract6-pix.html
http://smmlonline.com/articles/hogislanders/hogislanders.html
Tater, your message box is full ;)
D/l now...
I'd also like to comment that I have found another method that would allow creating new ships easily and very quick -no need to retexture at all-
The idea is as follows:
Pick one of the small cargo (Two masts 2 big or 4 small cargo bays), and pay attention to both hull and superstructure. Look in ONI for a larger ship that has a very similar superstructure and hull form, but greater tonnage and more cargo bays (Will hence have more masts and cranes). Then, simply colne the small ship, give it the new name and enlarge it taking care of not making the decks higher. Finally, use S3D to add new nodes, masts and cranes, as well as to reposition rudder and screw (Which is what tater is basically doing, move nodes around and add some).
If virtualpender or someone with a copy of ONI208J volunteers to search for candidates, I can give it all a try. I did a quick test enlarging a Biyo, and it worked very well, texture distortion was not noticeable if taking a bit care with proportions :D
Just take a pic of the small ships in SH4 (There's just 3 of them, Akita, Kimposan and Kasagisan, plus Heito could work too) and brose ONI for a match in silhouette, then post it here. :up:
Taihosan, too, which is one of the prettier ships in SH4, IMHO.
Actually, I've also been doing what you are doing. That's how I fixed Kinposan. I now have a library of prats I've carved off of the stock ships, too.
What I really need is a modern bridge for Nagara. Miner was gonna have a crack at that.
What I really need is a modern bridge for Nagara
If there's a similar one in Sh3 or 4 I can isolate and rework it :hmmm:
If there's a similar one in Sh3 or 4 I can isolate and rework it :hmmm:
Nothing leaps to mind. BTW, one thing I did was I found a mod someplace that had a scale person in it. I exported the 3d model, and I import it into dats I'm working on to test the scale. MANY Sh4 ships are very bad scale wise in height of superstructures. I have no idea what the deck height should be, but I'd assume at least 8 feet, right? Many are perhaps 5 feet! No wonder they look screwy.
You Aden, for example. The hakusika bridge was 3 levels, and the stock one has the first level different in height from the 2d and 3d, and ALL are wrong, lol. So I scale the whole thing up in Y, then cut the top, and did likewise (though after the fact realized I messed up a railing).
Redoing Aden's texture will be a bit of a bear, frankly. The imported stuff all got mapped as individual triangles. I think I need to try another total remap, instead.
Gotta love this international teamwork!
<S> one and all.
one thing I did was I found a mod someplace that had a scale person in it. I exported the 3d model, and I import it into dats I'm working on to test the scale. MANY Sh4 ships are very bad scale wise in height of superstructures. I have no idea what the deck height should be, but I'd assume at least 8 feet, right? Many are perhaps 5 feet! No wonder they look screwy.
Hey that's a great idea :up: I'll look for one in SH3/4 and will do the same, it's an excellent check of the deck heigth -provided the person is also correctly scaled!
Hey that's a great idea :up: I'll look for one in SH3/4 and will do the same, it's an excellent check of the deck heigth -provided the person is also correctly scaled!
I selected it in S3D, and did a ctrl F8, and it looked human sized... hang.
He's 1.78m tall (5' 10").
http://www.filefront.com/17263310/MAN.rar
Hitman, there are a few other things we need for each ship done, and the one doing it has the data.
There are several models for each ship.
A simplified reflect model (easy to do, take the base model, and delete stuff.)
Damage models. If the base model has those, simply scale them as you scaled it to make the new hull, so if your hull is 87% of the base hull, export those, then scale them to 87%, too.
Note there are F and B for each.
I made the reflect for aden already.
virtualpender
09-04-10, 10:22 PM
Another WAR Type B with the crow's nest on the forward mast. This one never became a maru but just it suggests this mast configuration wasn't a one off.
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/images/0/0a/RML3-02.jpg
virtualpender
09-04-10, 10:30 PM
Nice profile image. Might be useful for checking model scale. Again, this is a non-maru WAR Type B.
http://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/bassa_ex_war_pointer.jpg
virtualpender
09-05-10, 12:33 AM
If virtualpender or someone with a copy of ONI208J volunteers to search for candidates, I can give it all a try.
Absolutely!
Let me know what hull form model you want to start with and I'll begin perusing for matches.
I have Aden in game, but she's not showing her texture. Odd, since she shows it in S3D. I checked all the usual typo problems (trust me, I've made all of them in the past), but no dice.
I even did the zon for her. Hmmm. Gotta be something dumb.
keltos01
09-05-10, 12:56 AM
I have Aden in game, but she's not showing her texture. Odd, since she shows it in S3D. I checked all the usual typo problems (trust me, I've made all of them in the past), but no dice.
I even did the zon for her. Hmmm. Gotta be something dumb.
dumb ? ;)
is she all black ? then AO map needs redoing
did you set up the new texture nodes for the various parts in the .dat ?
send it over if you will.
regards
keltos
She has no AO map now, sergei needs to add it. I turned it off in the universal render controller, though, thought that would work.
I added a quick and dirty AO map, and it showed not black. I had assumed that if I turned off the AO map, it would ignore it. Guess not.
keltos01
09-05-10, 02:09 AM
She has no AO map now, sergei needs to add it. I turned it off in the universal render controller, though, thought that would work.
I added a quick and dirty AO map, and it showed not black. I had assumed that if I turned off the AO map, it would ignore it. Guess not.
glad to be of help ! :)
k
Absolutely!
Let me know what hull form model you want to start with and I'll begin perusing for matches. As I said, Akita, Kimposan, Kasagisan, Heito & Taihosan would do the job. I have no preferences, just pick one of them and browse ONI for a match in appearence but with bigger size. It doesn't mind if it isn't absolutely a clone copy, because some things might be corrected by painting in the texture (F.e. adding fake windows). For example the in-game Taihosan Maru is virtually identical to Kyokuzan Maru (http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/%7Eiwashige/kyokuzanmaru.htm) , but this last one is a much larger ship (From its look I would estimate it is some 9000 GRT, against Taihosan's 1800s).
The important thing is to have more variety at the minimum effort, and resizing can well do that. It was not rare at all for skippers to underestimate or overestimate tonnage of vessels by far due to having matching silhouettes but very different size.
[EDIT]
Actually, if things are that easy, we could consider adding some "fantasy" new units with that tactic, even if as placeholders or as fill-in for the generic merchant in the campaign layers. While not 100% historically accurate (Many stock in-game units ain't either!) it is worth remembering the literally thousands of different vessels that were lurking around Japan in WW2. Many times the crew could not provide a positive ID, but just an aproximate one.
Well I'm afraid that I won't be able to build Ada exclusively from Biyo. I will need to add parts of Haruna that I used for Aden, as the upper bridge is much closer. Hope it will not mess too much the texture and not be a huge job of retexturing :88)
Koyokuzan Maru is a Wartime Standard Type 1A. (oddly enough, I already have an upscaled taihosan I've been playing with since I started learning wings :) ).
Unfortunately, only 3 were built according to Heal (the remaining 6 converted to Type 2A—the 2A is engines aft.). This is a little odd, since Heal lists every single A type (1A, 2A, 3A) by name, and they are cross referenced by manufacturer—and Koyokuzan Maru is unlisted (as are the 2 other names that seem to be on Iwashige's page. This is one of those things where I have a book, and a website, and it's the rare case where the website must be right (if Mr. Iwashige says it, it's true, lol).
THe reason so many Japanese Standard ships were "engines aft" is simple. Putting the engine room at the back shortened the prop shaft. This meant slightly more room in the hold (no shaft tunnel), and less high quality shaft steel used.
From a technical standpoint, I have a simple texture idea. Say you scale the ship 140% in length, and 125% in width, 0% in height. The textures will be stretched, right? The hatches and portholes will look wide. We could select the textures for the superstructure, then compress them by somethign close to 125-140, say split the difference, and compress them by 1/1.32=75.75%. That will leave room on the texture map, so clone a section, and add to each side (try to keep the hatch(s) on the texture where they are).
The Type 1B is a split, unlike Taihosan, but there were more built (16). She's still similar.
Mino Maru:
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~iwashige/minomarumod.jpg
(note the off-center stern gun platform and DC roll rack).
Well I'm afraid that I won't be able to build Ada exclusively from Biyo. I will need to add parts of Haruna that I used for Aden, as the upper bridge is much closer. Hope it will not mess too much the texture and not be a huge job of retexturing :88)
An idea. Save before you add the extra stuff. Export the obj with materials.
Figure out the parts to import, and the scale needed. Then you can open haruna, and save just the scaled bit you are using. We can then import the object separately to the dat. That's IF you have materials problems.
Hitman, you and I are on the same page regarding similar ships of different sizes. It's one reason I want the 2D and 2E in game. 457 Type 2Es at 873 grt, and 131 2Ds at 2300 grt—and through a periscope they look virtually identical.
:)
An idea. Save before you add the extra stuff. Export the obj with materials.I save before adding a new part, so I have 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 etc from each ship.
Ada Maru is at 0.6 before adding the forward bridge and deck levels, and there's where the parts from Haruna start appearing. I'm afraid however that it's not possible to simply save the parts separately and then link them via node. The mix is too strong.
Here's Ada Maru 1.0, as I will send it to you guys in some minutes. Boy am I getting fast in producing these rubbish ships :har:
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/180/adamaruwip.th.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/adamaruwip.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
we should grab the anchor stuff off some ship and try to place it at the bow on Ada/Aden. The hawspipe, anchor windlass, etc.
Nisgeis!
Type 2E HULL:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/2ehull.jpg
Straight from Motoyuki-san!
tater,
this is interesting: I just tried to import Ada into the Biyo dat to see how she shows up, and S3D recognized the different parts present in the model, from Biyo and Hakusika. And ONLY imported the one I pointed it at .... it looks af we indeed could import it separately into S3D without any need of splitting the model - it's done automatically!
Should make retexturing easier in other programs, I guess :DL
EDIT: Forgot to say that I also added a new polygon, as deck level. Will be completely untextured and is pointed at by S3D as unknown.
YEEEEHAWWWW IT WORKS!!!!
Imported Ada model into Biyo.dat and it loaded up with the whole texture 90% correctly mapped :woot:
Also, replaced some parts from Biyo linked by nodes with the remaining ones of my model, and again they showed up! (Though not in the correct place, need to move them) :woot:
EDIT: Pic of Ada in Silent Editor, full bridge not visible because I've hidden the separate parts:
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2489/adab.th.jpg (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/adab.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Awesome!
Nisgeis, I banged out a 2E hull form in delftship. It needs some more tuning, but I can export to obj if you want it.
Nisgeis
09-05-10, 12:46 PM
Awesome!
Nisgeis, I banged out a 2E hull form in delftship. It needs some more tuning, but I can export to obj if you want it.
That was quick work. obj woud be great. Is it already to scale? I've done some of the deck stuff, what I could make out the detail for at least.
Yeah, I banged it out after I posted here, lol.
It's a tad large according to delftship, it's showing a 934 ton displacement instead of 873.
Course I am mixing that diagram you have with the image I just got.
I didn't do the transom yet.
http://www.filefront.com/17265813/New 2E.obj
Displacement reads 1016 or so.
I am assuming my errors have to do with that drawing (plan/elevation) I posted to you before.
Ada Maru in the game, using Biyo dat as host:
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/9418/adaot.th.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/adaot.jpg/)
Some textures are obviously distorted, and I can't figure why the 3rd deck rails appear above the mast, but overall it works :up:
Madox58
09-05-10, 02:59 PM
Check to see what the rail is parented to for one.
virtualpender
09-05-10, 03:24 PM
Ada Maru in the game, using Biyo dat as host:
Nice work - she looks great :yeah:
Check to see what the rail is parented to for one
The problem is that I can't select it in Silent Editor; it's there, I can see it in the preview, and yet it doesn't allow me selecting it :stare:
Never mind, this was just a very quick test to see how she showed up in the game. Will do in the next days more carefully :up:
virtualpender
09-05-10, 03:36 PM
As I said, Akita, Kimposan, Kasagisan, Heito & Taihosan would do the job. I have no preferences, just pick one of them and browse ONI for a match in appearence but with bigger size.
After going cross-eyed from poring over magnified images from ONI 208-J for the last several hours, I suggest the following as a good starting point for further cloning.
Here's HEITO MARU from the game:
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01heitomaru.jpg?t=1283718385
And here is what ONI said her hull looks like:
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01HEITO.png?t=1283718385
There were several classes of varying displacement but similar hull design built in the mid- to late-1930's. Here's a sampling:
EIHUKU MARU - 3520 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01EIHUKUMARU.png?t=1283718385
KOZAN MARU - 4180 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01KOZANMARU.png?t=1283718385
HOKUAN MARU - 3712 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01HOKUANMARU.png?t=1283718385
This design was also similar in some one-off ships:
TAIAN MARU - 3670 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01TAIANMARU.png?t=1283718385
SYOHO MARU - 1936 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01SYOHOMARU.png?t=1283718385
TAIMAI MARU - 2883 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01TAIMAIMARU.png?t=1283718385
Let me know if these matches are close enough to work with. If I'm in the ballpark then I'll continue looking and begin looking at some of the others to see what I can find.
Madox58
09-05-10, 04:56 PM
The problem is that I can't select it in Silent Editor; it's there, I can see it in the preview, and yet it doesn't allow me selecting it :stare:
Never mind, this was just a very quick test to see how she showed up in the game. Will do in the next days more carefully :up:
It's probably attached to a different mesh.
You'll figure it out.
:up:
That's how everyone learns.
Make a few mistakes and correct them.
:yep:
You are doing great!
Keep it up.
:yeah:
I'd open in (in wings, anyway), "separate" the bits, then lasso the ones and scrag em (or move 'em).
Sergei just finished fixing (looks good in s3d, ned to test tonight) a big, known issue. Now it's down to me to do some boring stuff. Then we might be pretty close to something people can beat up a little. note that it will NOT include these newest ships, but we can quickly add those in down the pike.
I'm not going to make any date promises, but Soon™ would be reasonable for some version to be done.
Before fall starts ;)
Focus for new ships should obviously be as many hulls as possible for the real class.
Another possibility is a class that is similar enough to other classes, we can "BP-clone" them to make new ships. In that case, I'd built a Library/ShipParts dat that would have mast sets for each variant. Two dats would then serve to create multiple ship classes.
Deck houses could also be added in this fashion, or sets of ventilators.
There is no need to have tons of Y nodes, either. You could assign all the stuff for a given variant to a parent node, and have 1 Y node place all of it.
On the subject of useful ships to turn into other ships...
Nagara. First she needs a proper superstructure, the stock one is total crap.
You could pretty easily make most every 23A type ship in ONI with a decent Nagara to start with. About 48 different ships by a rough count (in 8 or so classes).
I can scan plans for a few of them.
With t he bridge redone, they could also do a few Type 15s like Hiorokawa Maru:
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/%7Eiwashige/hirokawamarumod2.jpg
Some of these were turned into seaplane tenders:
http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/%7Eiwashige/kimikawamarumod3.jpg
virtualpender
09-05-10, 09:02 PM
Totally agree, Tater. Those would be great additions (especially the XAV's!)
The only issue, I think, is that it would start to skew the available ships towards the large end (over 6000 grt).
I'll keep digging and see what other large ship classes might work.
We already have Nagara, though. You have to remember that almost all convoy ships in RSRDC are explicitly named.
Also, if Nisgeis bangs out the 2E, that's 457 hulls! I will clone the crap out of it so it shows a lot for random ships :D They were built by varied yards, and I can Y node the masts, heck, I might do that for lifeboats, etc, too. Copy ONI, and have the Type E, E-2, E2 (modified) a tanker... plenty of fodder for the rec manual. That or a multipage entry loaded with TEXT describing them (and small cargo carries in general).
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/kamikawamaru.jpg
Looks better now that I removed the stupid davits from most all SH4 ship well decks, too. Not sure where I put a recent picture...
virtualpender
09-05-10, 09:24 PM
For tankers, the GENYO MARU class could be almost directly copied from the NIPPON MARU
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/02NIPPONMARU.jpg?t=1283739840
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/02GENYOMARU.jpg
virtualpender
09-05-10, 09:33 PM
Could the HEITO MARU hull work for the AMAKASU MARU #1 class? That is 40 named and the comment that "many" more have been produced. With some tweaking, the BUZYAN MARU aft deckhouse could be recycled.
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01HEITO.png?t=1283740379
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/02AMAKASUMARU1.jpg?t=1283740379
virtualpender
09-05-10, 09:57 PM
Another crazy idea.
Since the goal is to expand the recognition manual what about adding a couple of Russian ships? Two entries with lots of hulls could be added without any modeling work, just some new Russian textures.
The first could recycle the ADA model as is and the second is just a LIBERTY ship. No work would have to be done to either model and generic textures could be recycled, just add the big "USSR" flag and emblem on the side of the hull.
ARGUN class - use ADA model
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/02ARGUN.jpg
ALEXANDER NEVSKY class - use LIBERTY Ship model
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/02ANEVSKY.jpg
Good job virtualpender :up:
What I'm looking for right now is ships that do not need reworking of superstructures, just a bit redimensioning of hull and repositioning of nodes. The idea is to be able to add new ship classes without the long and boring process or retexturing.
There were several classes of varying displacement but similar hull design built in the mid- to late-1930's. Here's a sampling:
EIHUKU MARU - 3520 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01EIHUKUMARU.png?t=1283718385
KOZAN MARU - 4180 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01KOZANMARU.png?t=1283718385
HOKUAN MARU - 3712 tons
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac156/virtualpender/MARU/01HOKUANMARU.png?t=1283718385
These ships could be interesting, only pity is that they are more or less the same displacement as the original Heito, hence there will be only a minor, not much noticeable change in size. Can you zip the ONI pages about them and send them to me? (Upload to any filesharing web and send me a link)
If I can produce new ships as I want, then all skins that sergei has already done will be automatically working for them, which is exactly what I pretend.
Also, since I have recently discovered that you can add separate parts of different ships in a model -as Ada Maru has shown- I will deconstruct and prepare as kits several superstructures and hulls to be combined in different models.
Tater, do we want fantasy ships, if they look OK, or are we limited to the real ones?
Could the HEITO MARU hull work for the AMAKASU MARU #1 class? That is 40 named and the comment that "many" more have been produced. With some tweaking, the BUZYAN MARU aft deckhouse could be recycled.
Yup, AMAKASU is one of my next priorities ... there were LOTS of them, and it must have been one of the most seen coastal tankers hugging the shore of Japan and their main posessions for distributing the oil brought by the larger classes.
Any more pictures of AMAKASU would be of great help :up:
Another possibility is a class that is similar enough to other classes, we can "BP-clone" them to make new ships. In that case, I'd built a Library/ShipParts dat that would have mast sets for each variant. Two dats would then serve to create multiple ship classes.
Both Aden and Ada Maru are actually on that line. Once they are correctly textured and in the game, different variants of superstructures can be created for them. In particular, Ada Maru's hull is by far the most common one with raised forecastle, raised central superstructure basis, and raised stern castle. There are many other ships using that scheme, but with different superstructures and deck housings.
Forensicman101
09-06-10, 05:52 AM
Is this mod available? Where do I download it from?
Thanks.
Is this mod available? Where do I download it from?
Not yet. Read first post ;)
________________________________________________
I have just ordered ONI208J, Far Eastern Small Craft and General Ships recognition in CD. I had been wanting to do it for some time, but now I have the perfect excuse to buy them LOL :D
For tankers, the GENYO MARU class could be almost directly copied from the NIPPON MARU
It's actually very hard to tell any difference at all :o But I suppose they are so similar that it is not worth cloning them?
Hitman, when working on these, since you know the scalings, etc.,, it would be ideal if you could also do the reflect and damage models. That would massively reduce the work to actually get them in game. Basically, the reflect model (make it visible in S3D to see how simplified it is) could be scaled the same %s as the base hull was. So if you used hakusika, and scaled it 101% in length, and 93% in width, and 97% in height, do the same to a hakusika reflect model, then import that in.
The damage models are similar, the idea is just to have them fit properly inside the base model.
If we have all those, then all we need to do is to place all the nodes, props, rudders, etc, then re-zon the thing for damage, and mess with the sim file. And any texture issues.
I tried to remap Ada to fix those stretched textures, but oddly it didn't work (I selected the faces, then changed their scale on the map, did nothing).
I'll take a look into that.
Meanwhile, I have been experimenting with resizing and doing minor modifications to existing types. For example, I have eliminated one full deck in Teiho, resulting in a different appearence, but no need to modify textures :)
With a full resize in scale of all the ship and a repositioning of nodes, we could easily make represent a smaller merchant, say some 1800 GRT instead of the 4600 the original model has.
Compare:
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5643/heito.th.jpg (http://img543.imageshack.us/i/heito.jpg/)
And here is the same ship, but with even one deck less:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5643/heito.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/i/heito.jpg/)
Makes for a nice 1500-1800 GRT coastal merchant.
Do we want some of these for the future, even if they don't represent a real existing ship?
I'd like to concentrate on actual ships if possible to start. Ideally types with loads of hulls. Aden is perfect for this. Fixing Nagara, then doing that group of 23As would be up there for me, too (since we'd get some XCVS types into the bargain).
Barring that, I'm cool with some "generic" type shipping as long as it is a well-represented type.
I already have an XCVS based on nagara. I might alter the hull, but I need to really crack down on the bridge.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/tatersw/SH4/kami.jpg
virtualpender
09-06-10, 11:34 AM
I already have an XCVS based on nagara. I might alter the hull, but I need to really crack down on the bridge.
Nice!
virtualpender
09-06-10, 11:38 AM
Can you zip the ONI pages about them and send them to me? (Upload to any filesharing web and send me a link)
Working on it now. Will PM you a link later today.
GerritJ9
09-06-10, 02:50 PM
Virtualpender, for an easy addition to the Soviet roster, you could add a "War Melody". The Soviets purchased her sister "War Riddle" in 1932, she became the Soviet "Skala", operating from Vladivostok and was most probably used to transport Lend-Lease material from the US Pacific coast to Vladivostok. She would only require the correct skin.
Re the Hog Islanders, I have ordered the book "The Hog Islanders" which should arrive soon. Hopefully this will indicate whether the Japanese had any other Hog Islanders under their flag apart from the tanker "Manatawny/Nanei Maru". A small addition, but why not use what is already available and historically correct?
Limited soviet traffic, but a roster takes no real space
You are right, but I must point out that bringing some confussion into the game (Soviets were neutral to Japan and allied to US) during night attacks in the Sea of Japan would be a plus. A roster of soviet ships hugging along the russian coast and into the Sea of Japan would be great :up: IIRC there were actually some skippers who sank by error soviet ships, so it is very realistic.
Sledgehammer427
09-06-10, 04:18 PM
I believe I read somewhere that a US sub bombarded a soviet trawler with it's deck gun before they figured out it was soviet.
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