The good old fashioned functional UI

[Lognoreng]

Would it somehow be possible to make SH5 more like SH3 with the things we can change with modding?

Take away the moral system, and all the passive and active abilities. And instead use a system where the crew gets slightly better as they are spending more time with their jobs during career patrols. Bring back the old order system with a command bar, because really, if the captain wanted the torpedo guys to load an electric eel in tube 4. Wouldnt he just relay that order thru his "right hand man" or something like that? (I have no clue how the real crew operated, but this seems more correct). And have the interior of the boat just as a way of immersion. All the running around and whispering orders in the crews ears are just to actually use the new space.

Basically, less RPG, more simulation..

Would it be possible at all?

Alex

[piri_reis]

:DL

Yes it's all possible, did you just get here?
Check the UI mods on this page for starters.

[Lognoreng]

I am aware of those. But is it possible to that extent?

[kylania]

I am aware of those. But is it possible to that extent?

You didn't look at the posts did you? We already have essentially the SH4 interface and the SH3 keeps getting closer and closer. Thankfully it's not an entire mirror of the older interface though, but we're getting back our functionality.

[Ducimus]

The good old fashioned functional UI
SH5 more like SH3...

You know there is alot of that going around. Why do people want things more like SH3? Nostalgia? Resistance to change? You know, if all command accessiblity was in place, there is a good argument for the new styled UI. It's not in your way, and has a low footprint on the screen, plus it's more ACCURATE then the same old 6 dials that people have been staring at since 2005.

I admit, in SH4, i missed the SH3 UI, for one reason, and one reason only. Interaction with the crew! Well, we obviously have that now in Sh5, don't we? So why go backwards?


Hell, im reminded of a little mod called the "realistic embodyment mod" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=438524&postcount=1) I dont know if i came up with it, or someone else did.

Here's what i wrote back in 2007:

Realistic embodyment mod
Cause your hardcore and don't use the external camera.

Info:
It removes most shortcut keys and shortcut menu bar forcing the player to interact with the crew and move about the compartments as a real sub skipper would. You can however still "shout" commands to your crew via the officer menu on the bottom left of the UI.

Yup, no more jumping from the navigation map or control room to the attack periscope like a fart in the wind. Climb up that ladder to the conning tower captain! Want to check the captains log? its the little book on on the crew management table. Want to work out the damage control or crew assigments? You'll have to consult your charts, graphs and such at the crew management table. Want to man the hydrophones yourself? You'll have to walk over to your sonar man and tell him to shove a bun. Want to go back to the bridge after checking with the radioman? Its through the control room, and up the ladder

So anywho, i acknowledge that there's going to be a huge difference of opinion, and that there's two camps of folks in the UI department, Those who long wistfully for SH3, and those ready to try something new and move forward. :arrgh!:

[TheDarkWraith]

call it options, call it choices, call it whatever you want. I'm a firm believer in user choice. I hate it when something is forced onto me. I like to be able to choose and thus is why I've made different UIs. Everybody likes things their way and thus giving them that choice lets them play the way they want.
As a side note it also gets me exposure to the files. The more I 'play' with the files the more I learn about the game. The more I learn the more options and more additions can be made. Plus to me, it's FUN to experiment and dabble and see what I can make.

[Bill.Braskey]

Thank you for all your hard work TheDarkWraith. I want to enjoy this game by doing things that are fun and challenging. I don't care if the Captain would or wouldnt have done it IRL. Walking up and down the ladders is fun the first three times, but after that it is just me pushing a stupid key for no reason. Computers were invented to eliminate repetitive tasks... That is why I would rather have the option to tele-port to the station as needed even though I play at 100% and try to limit the TC. If I did not have a zombie crew, I might feel differently.

[Ducimus]

call it options, call it choices, call it whatever you want. I'm a firm believer in user choice. I hate it when something is forced onto me.

Oh i am too. Believe me i am, not just in mods, but on a whole range of topics. But thats for the general forum. What's getting my goat though, is that "bring back" and "good ole" and really and it's the most what there is to see.

Infact, excepting the one TDC UI you did in the direction of the minimalist style, every other UI work i have seen posted has been in SH3/4 style. With more of the same on the way. ( How exciting! /sarchasm ) So really, what choice is there? If i had more time and patience, id get into UI modding just to counterbalance that, but frankly im too burnt out on modding in general to care enough to bother, and i refuse to learn a programming language (python) that has no practical application in my daily job. It's much easier to complain. :haha:

(side note on phython: opnion at my work is taht phython is crap. It's slow. Yes it's an interpretted language, but so is pearl, and that runs much better)

[Galanti]

You know there is alot of that going around. Why do people want things more like SH3? Nostalgia? Resistance to change? You know, if all command accessiblity was in place, there is a good argument for the new styled UI. It's not in your way, and has a low footprint on the screen, plus it's more ACCURATE then the same old 6 dials that people have been staring at since 2005.
....

So anywho, i acknowledge that there's going to be a huge difference of opinion, and that there's two camps of folks in the UI department, Those who long wistfully for SH3, and those ready to try something new and move forward. :arrgh!:

Nostalgia and resistance to change pretty much sums it up for me!

Duci, the thing is, the new UI is in my way. I dont' need the bazillion flashing indicators all over the place, nor do I need most of the junk in the upper-right corner (TC controls). Command accesibility? Most of it is missing completely. I'm a little surprised to see you making this argument.

I agree with where I think it is you're going with this, but SH5's stock UI is not it, IMHO.

[Ducimus]

There's no argument from me (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164428) that the stock UI is lacking. But it's STYLE, is the direction that, I at least, would love to go. Anything from Sh3/SH4, in my opinion, is going backwards. I can't be the only one tired of seeing all these psuedo realistic bars and dials festooned all over the screen that lacked any sort of immediate accuracy when issuing commands.

[mobucks]

I was thinking on this as i played last night and i agree with bill, walking around to each station is a pain, but brings to light a now glaring issue with the series.

In older silent hunter games, you could order the boat to surface, and as soon as your baby broke waves you could insta teleport to the deck gun and start firing away. You could order a dive and still fire guns untill decks awash. The tactical advantage is obvious.

In SH5, you must manually walk around to/from the deckgun, which adds a little realism. The thing missing now is the crew. It would add a lot more strategy and tension if you had to wait for the entire deck crew to ALSO leave station and come back inside one by one down the one ladder available before being able to dive. Situations where you were in some danger of being spotted now have a lot more tension since you have to wait X longer to dive.

Might be hell to script the animation but i'd be happy for now with just a sound being played and an added duration to commence diving orders.

PS DarkWraith i had a warm moment reading your post under me, what a nice guy to want to do that.:up:

[Galanti]

There's no argument from me (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164428) that the stock UI is lacking. But it's STYLE, is the direction that, I at least, would love to go. Anything from Sh3/SH4, in my opinion, is going backwards. I can't be the only one tired of seeing all these psuedo realistic bars and dials festooned all over the screen that lacked any sort of immediate accuracy when issuing commands.

Well, as you said it's matter of choice. The bar in SH4 I never cared for, but I'll take the dials over digital readouts any day of the week.

I think the ideal is voice activation, but it's difficult to implement on a number of levels, plus it makes me feel like a complete jackass when I'm doing it.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, as you said it's matter of choice. The bar in SH4 I never cared for, but I'll take the dials over digital readouts any day of the week.

I think the ideal is voice activation, but it's difficult to implement on a number of levels, plus it makes me feel like a complete jackass when I'm doing it.

Skwasjer has voice recognition working. I hear it is darn good also. As far as looking like a jackass doing it...well...I can not help you there! :D:O:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164926

[Ducimus]

Well, as you said it's matter of choice. The bar in SH4 I never cared for, but I'll take the dials over digital readouts any day of the week

I think the ideal is voice activation, but it's difficult to implement on a number of levels, plus it makes me feel like a complete jackass when I'm doing it.

You too huh? I've avoided voice activation for that very reason. :haha:

As for dials vs digital readouts, the pro with the new UI is you can specify a depth right down to the single digit. With the dials im clicking 2 or 4 times to get the number i want.

At any rate, ill write up a post with pics when i get home from work (10 hours from now) and do my best to point out how the stock UI could be improved for posterity.

[Galanti]

As for dials vs digital readouts, the pro with the new UI is you can specify a depth right down to the single digit. With the dials im clicking 2 or 4 times to get the number i want.
.

You're absolutely right, but again, it makes no difference to me. The dials may be unrealistic in concept, but they look authentic to me, and that's what floats my boot. I'll put up with reduced functionality if it means a period-looking UI.

Damn, voice recognition is looking even better with Skwasjer's mod, but I can't get over that whole 40-Year-Old Virgin vibe. Maybe if there was an option to morph your own voice into Jurgen Prochnow's...

[gutted]

I like the new UI as well. The only UI mod im using from darkwraith right now is the minimalist TDC dials. I tried the others, and uninstalled them. Good riddnace to that. I didn't pay 50 bucks to get a SHIV interface with an updated graphics engine.

Not saying the new one is perfect or anything, but im diggin' it. Just needs alittle love, not replacing. Nor am i saying that everything that's getting re-used is bad thing. Some of it SHOULD be re-used. But it needs more thought than just a plugging it back in as-is.

[TopCat]

I do not like the new UI at all! When I buy a WWII Subsim I want to feel like I'm in a WWII Uboat and not in Captain Kirk's Enterprise. I do not insist at all on having good ole SH3 or SH4 back, but I want the nostalgic feeling of a WWII Sub, otherwise I could play a modern Sub Sim.

I disagree with Ducimus that reducing the UI in the way ubi did it is a progress. Why should this reduction of operability be a step forward in any direction?
However, I do like a new approach to Crew management whrere the role of the Captain is more tactical and more faced towards managing the crew and giving orders. But first and foremost I'm a great fan of the technical side of the Sim. And as a Captain I'm the boss and therefore I want to be able to operate all the main systems in the boat by myself if I like to. And what's the use of being able to walk through all the compartments of the boat, when I can't touch anything in there?

At least the TDC in the tower, the brain of our boat, should work properly and not being just a dead graphics peace to stare at.

That's why I do appreciate the work of Dark Wraith very much to bring us back operable dials and switches.

So why not going on in new directions keeping the good things of the past? Why doesn't ubi make everyone happy, the RPG fans as well as the technical nerds, if everything would be implemented in the Game engine? That's why I hope very much that modders like DarkWraith will go on with their work to bring us as much of this "technical realism" back as possible.

[FIREWALL]

You too huh? I've avoided voice activation for that very reason. :haha:

As for dials vs digital readouts, the pro with the new UI is you can specify a depth right down to the single digit. With the dials im clicking 2 or 4 times to get the number i want.

At any rate, ill write up a post with pics when i get home from work (10 hours from now) and do my best to point out how the stock UI could be improved for posterity.

What year in the 30's\40's did U-boats have digital readouts ?

[Westbroek]

They installed digital depth and speed gauges in early 1942... Briefly... They were promptly uninstalled when they realized it wasn't authentic to the traditional Uboots. Never get in the way of Germans and tradition.
:03:

[Ducimus]

I disagree with Ducimus that reducing the UI in the way ubi did it is a progress. Why should this reduction of operability be a step forward in any direction?


I said the THEME of the UI. THe UI itself is incomplete.

What year in the 30's\40's did U-boats have digital readouts ?

Your aruging asthetics about a USER INTERFACE. M'kay? Did i say, "hey all, lets put digitial redouts inside the uboat!" No, i did not. Those are two sperate items. User interface does not equal Uboat interior.

[Lonectzn]

One of the things to be careful of is losing perspective in the push for realism.

I always play 100% realism. I switched it straight away without thinking on first start of SH5, and did the same in previous titles. I always add the realism mods and anything that will make it harder because I like the challenge and don't like artificial assistance. At the same time however, I recognise that the controls we use (mouse/keyboard) change the way we have to look at interaction.

For example, captains didn't have a lock button they could use to have the periscope follow a target. However, they didn't have the limitation of a mouse/keyboard either, and could easily multi task moving the periscope to follow a target, check range and issue navigation orders, all while having a good scratch. In this situation having the periscope auto follow locked targets is a perfectly reasonable and realistic solution, and doesn't detract from the simulation.

The way I see it, any orders that a captain could have shouted or info they could ask for should be instantly accessible in the interface by both the mouse and keyboard. Many people prefer one or the other. Make sliding drawers, keep it from getting in people's way, whatever, but at least have it there.

The core of the game is not in how the orders are issued or whether dials are digital or analog, it is in what the orders are and the decision making process of the player. The interface just needs to be convenient, straight forward and most of all complete.

[Ducimus]

One of the things to be careful of is losing perspective in the push for realism.

I always play 100% realism. I switched it straight away without thinking on first start of SH5, and did the same in previous titles. I always add the realism mods and anything that will make it harder because I like the challenge and don't like artificial assistance. At the same time however, I recognise that the controls we use (mouse/keyboard) change the way we have to look at interaction.

For example, captains didn't have a lock button they could use to have the periscope follow a target. However, they didn't have the limitation of a mouse/keyboard either, and could easily multi task moving the periscope to follow a target, check range and issue navigation orders, all while having a good scratch. In this situation having the periscope auto follow locked targets is a perfectly reasonable and realistic solution, and doesn't detract from the simulation.

The way I see it, any orders that a captain could have shouted or info they could ask for should be instantly accessible in the interface by both the mouse and keyboard. Many people prefer one or the other. Make sliding drawers, keep it from getting in people's way, whatever, but at least have it there.

The core of the game is not in how the orders are issued or whether dials are digital or analog, it is in what the orders are and the decision making process of the player. The interface just needs to be convenient, straight forward and most of all complete.

Exactly! :yeah:

edit:
and one item of note, which i forgot to mention. A preference to a minimalist interface that came with stock, is acutally, in and of itself, a push for more realism. For instance, i could say that it is very Unrealistic, having 6 dials stuck to your eyeball the entire time you play. The minimalist interaface's main goal is to reduce the footprint of the UI (while still making it functional), so as the player can more immerse themselves in whatever they are involved in. I want to see more of whats going on, and less of the UI.

Or another way to think about it, Ever watch a movie with subtitles on in your native language? Distracting isn't it? Thats the UI. Can't exactly turn it off, but you can make it less pronounced.

[Lonectzn]

I do agree Ducimus.

Much as I heavily prefer the SH3 UI, it is really because the SH3 one has everything I need. The basic approach for SH5 is I feel cleaner and less in the way. A horribly and painfully unfinished one, but a simpler one nonetheless.

Minimalism doesn't have to mean ending up with things like the new ship recognition manual. Once everything that is necessary is added I'm sure it will end up a clean and efficient interface. I doubt the community will let it be any other way ;-)

[U-Bones]

I do agree Ducimus.

Much as I heavily prefer the SH3 UI, it is really because the SH3 one has everything I need. The basic approach for SH5 is I feel cleaner and less in the way. A horribly and painfully unfinished one, but a simpler one nonetheless.

Minimalism doesn't have to mean ending up with things like the new ship recognition manual. Once everything that is necessary is added I'm sure it will end up a clean and efficient interface. I doubt the community will let it be any other way ;-)

IMO thre will definately be two camps on this, which I am ok with.

Myself, I just want an unobtrusive bar at the bottom that presents the appropriate information and control options. The UI is a RL tool you use to play, not part of the "game". The closer to "invisible" it can be, the less it interferes with "game" immersion.

Don't get me wrong, having clickable workable dials and such in the "game" also is -really- nice, and goes KNOTS to help increase immersion.

UI theme to me is less important than how minimal it can be while retaining required function. Not to say unimportant.

[DragonRR1]

IMO thre will definately be two camps on this, which I am ok with.

Myself, I just want an unobtrusive bar at the bottom that presents the appropriate information and control options. The UI is a RL tool you use to play, not part of the "game". The closer to "invisible" it can be, the less it interferes with "game" immersion.

Don't get me wrong, having clickable workable dials and such in the "game" also is -really- nice, and goes KNOTS to help increase immersion.

UI theme to me is less important than how minimal it can be while retaining required function. Not to say unimportant.

Absolutely agree. The UI look is secondary to it being minimal but functional. I personally don't mind having digital readouts. That said the theme does have some importance and am puzzled as to why UBI/the devs chose the ultra techie/ipod look especially when precious time would have been expended on designing and implementing it. Hopefully we will eventually get a choice either by the devs finishing the current UI and darkwraith/others doing a more WW2 theme or the modders doing both!

[xxx4Dxxx]

well im seeing 2 sides here. you can say otherwise.. whatever .. ether way it would be nice 2 have a option @ the beginning menu to choose how you want your UI and what degree be it overwhelming or lacking. easy or hard. >digress to another thread

[TheDarkWraith]

well im seeing 2 sides here. you can say otherwise.. whatever .. ether way it would be nice 2 have a option @ the beginning menu to choose how you want your UI and what degree be it overwhelming or lacking. easy or hard. >digress to another thread

you must be reading my mind.....that's what I'm working on now.