Ubisoft Masterserver down? (merged) [Archive] - Page 3

BigBANGtheory

03-16-10, 11:16 AM

...you can't return the game anymore since the shops do not accept returns on opened software.

Shops have a policy of 'do not accept returns on opened software' for obvious reasons, however a shops policy does not effect your consumer rights (which is dependent on where you live of course).

To put it bluntly if you take an opened game back to a store the manager will (unless instructed by their head office) not budge an inch. What you need to do is write a letter to the retailer's head office explaining that you wish to return the game for the following reasons with proof of purchase in return for a full refund and their failure to act on this within 28days is a breach of your consumer rights.

In the UK this is called:
Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994

I speak from personal experience, in my case I returned a retail version of Crysis cos the DRM system stopped the game working with my DVD drive. I got the usual sh*t from the store manager but 2 weeks later after writing them a letter explaining how they breached my consumer rights not only did I get a full refund I additionally got vouchers totalling the value of the game.

Most people do not understand their consumer rights and are taken advantage of. Now you know different, exercise your rights if you feel its the correct course of action for you.

Arclight

03-16-10, 11:17 AM

Remind me to invest points in willpower the next time I level up.
Don't forget about leveling wisdom as well, or you end up strongly convinced and steadfast on the wrong side of the fence. :lol:

RSColonel_131st

03-16-10, 11:22 AM

DRM does have such a legal backing :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

And EULA's have won a few legal cases. Here's one example (Davidson & Associates are the lawyers for BLIZZARD (world of warcraft)) :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

So as you can see, EULA's do have legal backing.

Okay, so if I don't agree with the EULA but I had to open the box in order to see it, what do you recommend (same question for Bilge Rat)? Can you tell Amazon they have to take returns on opened software from me? You might get away with it in a store, but try writing to Amazon - someone here did with SH5, and failed.

BigBang, if you can prove that the product doesn't work, that may be one thing, but if you simple do not agree with certain clauses in the EULA? What do you do then?

Look, it's really simple: You can't redefine or change contract terms AFTER the sale is made final. If by opening the box and reading the EULA the sale is made final (i.e., your retailer will not accept opened software) then the EULA can not be legally binding, otherwise it would equal a contractual term FORCED on your as customer with no way out.

But that's besides the point, which is: Do you really want a company to have the right and sell a defective product with no legal recourse for the customer?

Fishu

03-16-10, 11:28 AM

Don't forget about leveling wisdom as well, or you end up strongly convinced and steadfast on the wrong side of the fence. :lol:

My wisdom is great, but the willpower needed to resist temptation is weak.

Arclight

03-16-10, 11:33 AM

Same problem, not refering to SH5 btw, but all other purchases. :lol:

Seems to be working again. :doh:

Fishu

03-16-10, 11:48 AM

Mine is just as dead as before. And to think about it, I just spent 2,5 hours installing a new GFX card and power supply, which of the power supply took 2,4 hours (basically rebuilt the computer just to be able to swap the PSU). After all that I want to just relax with the campaign, is that too much to ask?

Rickster1

03-16-10, 11:50 AM

Here in uk at 16-45 no internet connection !! but I am connected to be able to write this !!

Subwolf

03-16-10, 12:02 PM

I just called their support, there is a UK phone number listed in the manual. This is what he said..

Their servers have been down since 4pm cet, they believe there has been another hacking attempt, and they are working right now to get the servers up and running again asap. We can't do much more but wait.

I asked if a refund is possible, he said not at the moment because there is nothing wrong with their product. But hackers are trying to destroy their copy protection system, and we all become victims as a result of it.

I asked if Ubisoft will release the game without DRM, he said they don't plan on that right now but they are looking into ways to secure their servers.

Well, didn't help me much, but at least we know whats going on.

Athlonic

03-16-10, 12:13 PM

Again,

DO NOT click OK on the "internet problem message" dialog and wait.

I'm in the game now (for how long I don't know) it took me 4:45 minutes to get in.

Give it a try.

Seem's that DOS attack goes harder and permanent now.

Ubisoft has to take a decision and quick :
- accept their defeat and retire this DRM to support legit customers
- or let it go and have to face the pirates and the legit customers

Subwolf

03-16-10, 12:16 PM

Here in uk at 16-45 no internet connection !! but I am connected to be able to write this !!

Just ignore that message. The launcher doesn't check your connection, it is only trying to contact the servers, and when they are down it thinks you have no connection. Simple as that. Ubi obviously didn't think about this :doh:

Subwolf

03-16-10, 12:23 PM

Ubisoft has to take a decision and quick :
- accept their defeat and retire this DRM to support legit customers
- or let it go and have to face the pirates and the legit customers

Another release is delayed because of this, and they said SH5 could be one of the last titles for PC. Piracy is killing PC gaming :cry:

KiwiVenge

03-16-10, 12:32 PM

Another release is delayed because of this, and they said SH5 could be one of the last titles for PC. Piracy is killing PC gaming :cry:

That or how they are combating piracy is killing PC gaming.
I am by no means a tech kind of guy, but I would imagine there are better forms of piracy protection then what they are using here.
That and how about making people prefer the official version by including nicely bound, including all the info you ever needed, and more manual.
In my opinion a great looking, well put together manual is a huge draw.
Instead it seems they sent some laughable near useless manual.

I just can not help but think there has to be of been some better way then how they went about this.

Fishu

03-16-10, 03:26 PM

Another release is delayed because of this, and they said SH5 could be one of the last titles for PC. Piracy is killing PC gaming :cry:

What's killing the PC games for me is the console portings, the nazi protections and most of all the bugs.

If I wanted to play a simplified console game I'd buy a friggin console. I'd rather play a game than wonder why the thing isn't working while those who did not buy the game are having a go. I would also very much like to play a complete game rather than a beta version of it, let alone pay for that.

Right now I'm suffering from the nazi protection and a beta product. I must admit I'm amazed that SH5 hasn't crashed more than twice (both times within the same hour!).

and to think of it, I actually paid for it while fully knowing that I'm burying my head six feet deep into s.... :damn:

NefariousKoel

03-16-10, 03:45 PM

Another release is delayed because of this, and they said SH5 could be one of the last titles for PC. Piracy is killing PC gaming :cry:

People who never buy software aren't lost sales.

Ubi is tanking and it's a handy excuse. I say good riddance. There is a demand so a different company will fill the void.

jwilliams

03-16-10, 04:30 PM

This is the most clear cut example of a straw man argument combined with argument ad absurdum I've ever seen.

You're comparing apples with explosive birefringence here. I pay a fee to the state to register my drivers license after having taken my driving test, which covers taxes, administrative costs, etc. Maintaining said license is dependent upon my following the assorted legalities set forth by my elected legislature. If I break those laws then yes, I can have my license revoked. I can go to court to

I pay a business for a video game as a consumer, except I am being 'licensed' to use it. The 'license' they put forth will often claim they have a right to revoke the license without warning at their will, as is stated in Ubisoft's EULA here, and I have no recourse... I am forced to agree not to hold Ubisoft liable in the contract they put forth that I have not signed. I can't see this contract until I've opened the game, at which point it is difficult and sometimes impossible to return it.

Do you see the difference there? I certainly hope so.

Of cause i see the difference. :DL

But you can return the product to ubisoft within 30 day if you do not agree to the EULA.
So if you buy the product, take it home and open it, go to install but decide you dont agree to the EULA. You can click cancel to the install and return the product.
And not everything in the EULA would hold up in court. Its a legal grey area.

jwilliams

03-16-10, 04:48 PM

Okay, so if I don't agree with the EULA but I had to open the box in order to see it, what do you recommend (same question for Bilge Rat)?

If you decide you dont agree to the EULA. You do not install the product (As installing is agreeing).
You return it to Ubisoft. You have 30 days from date of purchase.

UBISOFT AGREES FOR A PERIOD OF THIRTY (30) DAYS FROM THE ORIGINAL DATE OF PURCHASE TO REFUND THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE UNUSED MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT TO THE USER. “UNUSED” IS DEFINED TO MEAN THAT ANY USER (I) DID NOT USE THE KEY CODE; (II) OBTAINS A RETURN MERCHANDISE AUTHORIZATION (“RMA”) NUMBER FROM UBISOFT CUSTOMER SERVICE AT 919 460-9778 OR BY USING THE ASK A QUESTION FEATURE IN THE FAQ SECTION OF HTTP://SUPPORT.UBI.COM; AND (III) RETURNS, DURING THE FOREGOING PERIOD OF THIRTY (30) DAYS, THE UNUSED MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT IN ITS WHOLE, ORIGINAL PACKAGING WITH THE ORIGINAL PROOF OF PURCHASE AND THE RMA TO UBISOFT, POSTAGE PREPAID TO THE ADDRESS SET FORTH BELOW. BY INSTALLING OR OTHERWISE USING THIS MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT, YOU ACCEPT AND AGREE TO BE BOUND TO THESE TERMS. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, DO NOT INSTALL OR OTHERWISE USE THIS MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT. INSTEAD, RETURN IT TO UBISOFT FOR A REFUND ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE PROCESS.

5- Warranty

Ubisoft guarantees to the original buyer of the Multimedia Product that the compact disc (CD) supplied with this Multimedia Product shall not show any fault during a normal-use period of ninety (90) days from the invoiced date of purchase, or any other longer warranty time period provided by applicable legislation.

Please return any defective Multimedia Product by registered letter together with this manual and your registration card if you have not already sent it to us. Please state your full name and address (including postcode), as well as the date and location of purchase.

bigboywooly

03-16-10, 04:58 PM

If you decide you dont agree to the EULA. You do not install the product (As installing is agreeing).

5- Warranty

Ubisoft guarantees to the original buyer of the Multimedia Product that the compact disc (CD) supplied with this Multimedia Product shall not show any fault during a normal-use period of ninety (90) days from the invoiced date of purchase, or any other longer warranty time period provided by applicable legislation.

Please return any defective Multimedia Product by registered letter together with this manual and your registration card if you have not already sent it to us. Please state your full name and address (including postcode), as well as the date and location of purchase.

You return it to Ubisoft. You have 90 days from date of purchase.

Your quote is about a damaged disc
Not agreeing to the Eula isnt a damaged disc

RSColonel_131st

03-16-10, 05:23 PM

Of cause i see the difference. :DL

But you can return the product to ubisoft within 90 day if you do not agree to the EULA.
So if you buy the product, take it home and open it, go to install but decide you dont agree to the EULA. You can click cancel to the install and return the product.
And not everything in the EULA would hold up in court. Its a legal grey area.

The part you quoted says returning a defective disk. Does the EULA state that UBISOFT will take back the game if you disagree with the EULA? Or does it simple say using the game means accepting the EULA, but doesn't offer a way to not accept it and still get the money back?

You see, this is the kind of thing that makes EULAs legally invalid. Normally, if a company (like, mobile phone company or internet provider) changes business terms after you made a contract, you can always chancel the contract. Does UBI allow for this, or not?

jwilliams

03-16-10, 05:43 PM

The part you quoted says returning a defective disk. Does the EULA state that UBISOFT will take back the game if you disagree with the EULA? Or does it simple say using the game means accepting the EULA, but doesn't offer a way to not accept it and still get the money back?

You see, this is the kind of thing that makes EULAs legally invalid. Normally, if a company (like, mobile phone company or internet provider) changes business terms after you made a contract, you can always chancel the contract. Does UBI allow for this, or not?

Sorry i quoted the wrong part of the EULA...

Here you go :-

UBISOFT AGREES FOR A PERIOD OF THIRTY (30) DAYS FROM THE ORIGINAL DATE OF PURCHASE TO REFUND THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE UNUSED MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT TO THE USER. “UNUSED” IS DEFINED TO MEAN THAT ANY USER (I) DID NOT USE THE KEY CODE; (II) OBTAINS A RETURN MERCHANDISE AUTHORIZATION (“RMA”) NUMBER FROM UBISOFT CUSTOMER SERVICE AT 919 460-9778 OR BY USING THE ASK A QUESTION FEATURE IN THE FAQ SECTION OF HTTP://SUPPORT.UBI.COM; AND (III) RETURNS, DURING THE FOREGOING PERIOD OF THIRTY (30) DAYS, THE UNUSED MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT IN ITS WHOLE, ORIGINAL PACKAGING WITH THE ORIGINAL PROOF OF PURCHASE AND THE RMA TO UBISOFT, POSTAGE PREPAID TO THE ADDRESS SET FORTH BELOW. BY INSTALLING OR OTHERWISE USING THIS MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT, YOU ACCEPT AND AGREE TO BE BOUND TO THESE TERMS. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, DO NOT INSTALL OR OTHERWISE USE THIS MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT. INSTEAD, RETURN IT TO UBISOFT FOR A REFUND ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE PROCESS.You cannot install the game unless you click agree. As the EULA comes up before you can install. if you click dont agree then the install process ends. you then have to return the product to Ubisoft for a refund.

JScones

03-16-10, 06:18 PM

Just to change the subject a little, don't forget all that Settlers 7 will be released next Tuesday...so expect further downtime around then due to server overload, caused by either those relentless and never ending hackers, or those incompetent Ubisoft technical staff (or both, as the case may be)...

Nordmann

03-16-10, 07:24 PM

There is no attack, it's an excuse for shoddy authentication servers. Sorry, but I just can't see 'hackers' being this determined.

RSColonel_131st

03-17-10, 05:16 AM

Sorry i quoted the wrong part of the EULA...
You cannot install the game unless you click agree. As the EULA comes up before you can install. if you click dont agree then the install process ends. you then have to return the product to Ubisoft for a refund.

I just tried this.

1) http://support.ubi.com doesn't load.

2) I have to go trough ubi.com then click support then click trough platforms and games to find the SH5 FAQ.

3) "Ask a question" requires an UBI account.

So you have to jump trough multiple hoops AND give UBI your personal Data (at least Date of Birth, Full Name, Mail Adress, ZIP Code) AND pay for shipping to return a product where you don't agree with the EULA. Really smooth. Puts all the work on the customer, none of the costs on UBI.

msxyz

03-17-10, 06:13 AM

I just tried this.
So you have to jump trough multiple hoops AND give UBI your personal Data (at least Date of Birth, Full Name, Mail Adress, ZIP Code) AND pay for shipping to return a product where you don't agree with the EULA. Really smooth. Puts all the work on the customer, none of the costs on UBI.

In Italy, Germany and others EU countries as well the so called "vexatory clauses" are conteplated as possible reason to declare a contract void in courts.

Basically if you insert in the contract conditions that go against recognized rights or that requires out of the ordinary efforts to be met, the contract is null. What you describe certainly meets the criteria.

SteamWake

03-17-10, 10:22 AM

I just can't see 'hackers' being this determined.

Give it a month or two they will finally get tired of it and move on to their next target.

BTW I dont think the majority of the 'hackers' are SH5 fans rather more the Assasin's Creed that and the sheer 'joy' of ruining pepoles day. ;)

Steeltrap

03-17-10, 11:17 AM

I just tried this.

1) http://support.ubi.com doesn't load.

2) I have to go trough ubi.com then click support then click trough platforms and games to find the SH5 FAQ.

3) "Ask a question" requires an UBI account.

So you have to jump trough multiple hoops AND give UBI your personal Data (at least Date of Birth, Full Name, Mail Adress, ZIP Code) AND pay for shipping to return a product where you don't agree with the EULA. Really smooth. Puts all the work on the customer, none of the costs on UBI.

SAdly, companies are able to act in direct conflict with every principle of quality customer relations because we, as customers, are so 'addicted' to their products we are no longer prepared to stand up to them.

I wrote a fairly lengthy piece on this stuff - it relates to what I do professionally - in the Empire: Total War threads at TWCenter, but won't do it here (doubt people are interested).

I will say it's the reason why I have not purchased SH5.

Ubi has crossed a line from which there is no return as far as I am concerned. If ALL publishers started doing this, and that meant I never bought another PC game, then so be it.

IanC

03-17-10, 11:28 AM

SAdly, companies are able to act in direct conflict with every principle of quality customer relations because we, as customers, are so 'addicted' to their products we are no longer prepared to stand up to them.

I wrote a fairly lengthy piece on this stuff - it relates to what I do professionally - in the Empire: Total War threads at TWCenter, but won't do it here (doubt people are interested).

I will say it's the reason why I have not purchased SH5.

Ubi has crossed a line from which there is no return as far as I am concerned. If ALL publishers started doing this, and that meant I never bought another PC game, then so be it.

:sign_yeah:
I've been saying it for a long time, it's a serious long term mistake to gobble up whatever they throw at us.

RSColonel_131st

03-17-10, 11:37 AM

Agree with both of you. It seems no matter how much you warn and inform people about potential (or in this case, very real) problems with corporate decisions affecting future of our gaming, there are always enough who buy on the first day, bugs and all included.

That's why it irks me to see that even Neal - as the voice of one of the largest Naval Game websites in the world - has not even seen worth to mention the repeated problems with this DRM in his review.

Obviously, people really don't care and are happy to pay 50$ for being annoyed and having their customer rights taken away one by one. I'm slowly giving up hope that this will ever change.

Bilge_Rat

03-17-10, 11:59 AM

FIREWALL

03-17-10, 12:19 PM

RSColonel_131st

03-17-10, 12:23 PM

NefariousKoel

03-17-10, 12:28 PM

In Italy, Germany and others EU countries as well the so called "vexatory clauses" are conteplated as possible reason to declare a contract void in courts.

Basically if you insert in the contract conditions that go against recognized rights or that requires out of the ordinary efforts to be met, the contract is null. What you describe certainly meets the criteria.

That goes for the US also, pretty sure.

Companies can't just make up whatever rules they want and expect it to hold up in court if it goes against a previous court decision or law.

Bilge_Rat

03-17-10, 12:42 PM

The problem is companies selling games that don't work, trying to gloss over the problems. And then the customer has to jump trough hoops, even register personal data, to get his money refunded (either at the local store or online).

We can leave the DRM out of it. If the game crashed randomly or refused to load due to a bug in DirectX9 graphic implementation, it would be the very same result.

Do you think we are wrong for expecting software to work as advertised? Simple saying "if it doesn't you can return it" is only half the story if returning means hassle for a customer who bought the software in good faith and trust towards the publisher.

Absolutely not, that is how the system is supposed to work. You buy a product which does not work as advertised or is faulty, you should be allowed to return it for a refund. It works like that for most products.

However, for any product you return, there is always some effort required to prove you bought the product and actually deliver it to the retailer. It works like that for any product. Ubisoft is not adding any unusual conditions here.

I also think Steam and D2D should be held to the same standard.

RSColonel_131st

03-17-10, 12:49 PM

However, for any product you return, there is always some effort required to prove you bought the product and actually deliver it to the retailer. It works like that for any product. Ubisoft is not adding any unusual conditions here.

If I buy a 20USD Hair Dryer at Walmart (or whatever your local equivalent is to my all-round shop here), I can return it if it doesn't work, simple as that, in person, and walk out the door with 20USD in cash.

If I buy a 50USD Game at Walmart, I have to provide UBI with my personal data, register an account, ask them to kindly give me an RMA and then pay for the postage to return the item. I haven't figured out how they would actually pay the cash - direct bank transaction, paypal, no clue what other effort there might be. In any way they get a lot more personal data than should be required, and I'm not sure they will refund shipment.

I would clearly argue that these are some "unusual conditions" alright.

Besides, we could all follow your advice and simple return/don't buy. I mean, I'm doing that. But how is that going to improve the quality of software releases or the stability of OSP?

Oh, and another thing: The EULA quoted so far covers disagreement with the EULA (30 days return right unless installed) and defective disk (90 day return right). But doesn't the EULA also say that any technical problems with the actually installed game are not covery by UBI responsibility? So I'm not even sure you could return it to UBI as "damaged disk" if the physical disk is fine but the OSP has been down for the entire weekend. And since you already had it installed to find that out, you can't revert on the EULA either.

guynoir

03-17-10, 01:19 PM

I'm sorry... I don't really have anything to add to this serious and informative discussion, but has anyone else seen this yet? :rotfl2:

http://i.imgur.com/rGN4K.gif

IanC

03-17-10, 01:23 PM

I'm sorry... I don't really have anything to add to this serious and informative discussion, but has anyone else seen this yet? :rotfl2:

That one is fast becoming a classic :lol:

Soundman

03-17-10, 01:50 PM

Well, I guess I'm one of those who was waiting to see how this would turn out and I'm glad I did. Now after reading this my mind is made up. I WILL NOT BUY THIS GAME WITH DRM !! :down::down:

Bilge_Rat

03-17-10, 02:03 PM

If I buy a 20USD Hair Dryer at Walmart (or whatever your local equivalent is to my all-round shop here), I can return it if it doesn't work, simple as that, in person, and walk out the door with 20USD in cash.

If I buy a 50USD Game at Walmart, I have to provide UBI with my personal data, register an account, ask them to kindly give me an RMA and then pay for the postage to return the item. I haven't figured out how they would actually pay the cash - direct bank transaction, paypal, no clue what other effort there might be. In any way they get a lot more personal data than should be required, and I'm not sure they will refund shipment.

I would clearly argue that these are some "unusual conditions" alright.

Besides, we could all follow your advice and simple return/don't buy. I mean, I'm doing that. But how is that going to improve the quality of software releases or the stability of OSP?

Oh, and another thing: The EULA quoted so far covers disagreement with the EULA (30 days return right unless installed) and defective disk (90 day return right). But doesn't the EULA also say that any technical problems with the actually installed game are not covery by UBI responsibility? So I'm not even sure you could return it to UBI as "damaged disk" if the physical disk is fine but the OSP has been down for the entire weekend. And since you already had it installed to find that out, you can't revert on the EULA either.

from what I can see, the info Ubi asks for, name and address, is required so they can mail you a cheque. How is that unusual or intrusive?

secondly, if you bought it from Walmart, why don't you just return there?

I am not trying to defend Ubi, but I don't see how their return policy differs from that of any other software publisher out there.

Steeltrap

03-17-10, 07:10 PM

I'm not sure if I understand the issue anymore. Ubi has been upfront about DRM and the internet requirement. No one is forced to buy the game. Ubi will give you a full refund if you don't agree with the EULA. Most people who have had problems or are unhappy with the game have been able to return to the retailer they bought it from for a refund (according to the posts I read here), so what is the problem?

An issue in Australia, for instance, is that retailers are increasingly taking the stance that if you purchase a PC game with online registration they will not give a refund once it is opened. This is directly at odds with various consumer legislation, but it also is confronted only if I, or another consumer, wants to get into a long argument with them over their obligations. Who wants to take that on?

Make no mistake, much of this stems from the poor state of games at release as that is one of THE main drivers of quite legitimate customer dissatisfaction. Steam, as an example, specifically prohibits refunds. That goes against every principle of customer relations management I've ever studied, yet they can do it because people would rather buy whatever they're offered without questioning the implications. It should be, IMO, illegal NOT to give refunds.

It's one of the main reasons why I despise this "Oh it's OK if they release ****; they'll patch it or modders will fix it" attitude that is increasingly common.

Only when a company pays a direct price for poor quality will they address it. As a self-employed business contractor who has worked on cleaning up these messes, I can say that based on direct experience. Some of the crap I've seen in major companies with good reputations defies belief, especially as it's entirely predictable. There have been times when I've been tempted to look senior execs in the eye and say "WTF were you thinking?". The absence of what would commonly be referred to as 'moral hazard' (i.e. you prioduce crap you will suffer direct, substantial pain for it) in the whole game publishing/sales will increasingly have, and has already had, serious consequences for the balance of power between publishers and consumers. The attack on re-sale is also related to this. Many people re-sell games as they quickly tire of them, or are unhappy with them, either of which often stems from poor design and/or quality issues. Preventing re-sale is yet another shift of power away from consumers (anyone who says otherwise is full of it). None of this will be good for gamers in the long run.

End of soap box rant.....:woot:

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 05:58 AM

from what I can see, the info Ubi asks for, name and address, is required so they can mail you a cheque. How is that unusual or intrusive?

secondly, if you bought it from Walmart, why don't you just return there?

I am not trying to defend Ubi, but I don't see how their return policy differs from that of any other software publisher out there.

The problem is, Software Return Policie GENERALY suck. Because if they wouldn't suck you could return the product at point of sales (i.e. Walmart) but you aren't allowed to do so. Certainly not for disagreeing with the EULA, and only with hard work for a non-working game.

So yeah, UBIs policy sucks just the same as everyone else. And they want more information than just Name and Adress, they then have your age, email adress, and know at least one game you returned. You also have an UBI account after the return.

I don't know about you, but I generally resent big companies trying to build large data mines. Using the return process on a malfunctioning product to build data mines of valuable user information is just plain wrong.

jwilliams

03-18-10, 06:41 AM

Coldcall

03-18-10, 06:49 AM

The problem is, Software Return Policie GENERALY suck. Because if they wouldn't suck you could return the product at point of sales (i.e. Walmart) but you aren't allowed to do so. Certainly not for disagreeing with the EULA, and only with hard work for a non-working game.

So yeah, UBIs policy sucks just the same as everyone else. And they want more information than just Name and Adress, they then have your age, email adress, and know at least one game you returned. You also have an UBI account after the return.

I don't know about you, but I generally resent big companies trying to build large data mines. Using the return process on a malfunctioning product to build data mines of valuable user information is just plain wrong.

Well in the Uk you are entitled to your money back from the retailer who distributed the title, if you can show you cannot access the game but meet all stated requirements on the package - as is the case with SH5.

Nothing overrides your statutory rights, and you can ignore the caveats and conditions individual retailers put on software games because its counts for nowt.

If they wont play ball, you call trading standards and make an official referenced complaint, believe me you will get your refund.

It can be alot of hassle but if thats what it takes and you are dterminded to get a refund its there to be had.

PS: Im keeping my game because of the great modding community however any other game this buggy, broken, DRMed to an inch of its life would go back immediately. From a QA perspective it really is a crock.

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 07:54 AM

The simple answer is Dont buy games that require an `Online reg`.
And as most games these day require someform of online registration, then dont buy any games.
No one forces you to buy games. You have a choice.
It's there product, if you dont like there terms of sale then dont buy. simple.

Fascinating. Truly fascinating. Obviously you see so really absolutely nothing wrong with handing over your personal data and control over your gaming habits to those companies that the idea that someone might want to change this system is absolutely alien to you. You also seem to firmly believe that "it's their product" so they can cut short your rights any way they want.

If we think your statement to it's final conclusion, you have no problem excluding all persons from PC Gaming who value their privacy and control over their own software, they simple "should not buy" and get the hell out of the market. Thus creating a market where companies have the ultimate say in every transaction and customers are mere sheep throwing their money at them.

I welcome you, my new Sheep Overlord.

jwilliams

03-18-10, 08:22 AM

Fascinating. Truly fascinating. Obviously you see so really absolutely nothing wrong with handing over your personal data and control over your gaming habits to those companies that the idea that someone might want to change this system is absolutely alien to you. You also seem to firmly believe that "it's their product" so they can cut short your rights any way they want.

If we think your statement to it's final conclusion, you have no problem excluding all persons from PC Gaming who value their privacy and control over their own software, they simple "should not buy" and get the hell out of the market. Thus creating a market where companies have the ultimate say in every transaction and customers are mere sheep throwing their money at them.

I welcome you, my new Sheep Overlord.

What personal detail do they collect.....

umm lets see

My name... you can put anything you like. they'll never know if its your real name of not.
My age.... ummm i could lie.... but who cares how old (young) i am
my address... again i could lie.... might be problematic if i want a return... but guess i could use the change address to retify it, as and when reqired (even a PO BOX No. if im that worried).
My preferance in games... could be helpful in getting games i like.
When i log in and out... Who really cares if they know this. might be helpful in setting up servers.
My email address... hell i already got 4 email addresses... its easy and free to set up email addresses.

So i dont see what harm to me this data they are collecting could cause. Give me one example of any harm this could cause.

Control my gaming habits.... lol... their server might crash... there not really controlling my gaming habits tho, are they?

They arnt taking any rights away from you. All laws in your county overide any EULA they may write.

And its not your software... you buy a licence to use their software.

The only problem i can see with this `always online` scheme is if the servers arnt availible and you cant play the game.

But if they didnt try to stop piracy and try to protect their profits, then you prob would never buy a game for your pc. Because if they dont make money then they wont make PC games anymore.

Sure i'd rather not have to use this DRM system but i'd rather use this system then not have any new games to play.

So we all have a choice. Dont buy games or buy games with DRM.
And in most cases the DRM gets patched out after about a year. So you can still buy games without DRM, you'll just have to wait a little longer.

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 08:32 AM

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 08:42 AM

An issue in Australia, for instance, is that retailers are increasingly taking the stance that if you purchase a PC game with online registration they will not give a refund once it is opened. This is directly at odds with various consumer legislation, but it also is confronted only if I, or another consumer, wants to get into a long argument with them over their obligations. Who wants to take that on?

Make no mistake, much of this stems from the poor state of games at release as that is one of THE main drivers of quite legitimate customer dissatisfaction. Steam, as an example, specifically prohibits refunds. That goes against every principle of customer relations management I've ever studied, yet they can do it because people would rather buy whatever they're offered without questioning the implications. It should be, IMO, illegal NOT to give refunds.

It's one of the main reasons why I despise this "Oh it's OK if they release ****; they'll patch it or modders will fix it" attitude that is increasingly common.

Only when a company pays a direct price for poor quality will they address it. As a self-employed business contractor who has worked on cleaning up these messes, I can say that based on direct experience. Some of the crap I've seen in major companies with good reputations defies belief, especially as it's entirely predictable. There have been times when I've been tempted to look senior execs in the eye and say "WTF were you thinking?". The absence of what would commonly be referred to as 'moral hazard' (i.e. you prioduce crap you will suffer direct, substantial pain for it) in the whole game publishing/sales will increasingly have, and has already had, serious consequences for the balance of power between publishers and consumers. The attack on re-sale is also related to this. Many people re-sell games as they quickly tire of them, or are unhappy with them, either of which often stems from poor design and/or quality issues. Preventing re-sale is yet another shift of power away from consumers (anyone who says otherwise is full of it). None of this will be good for gamers in the long run.

End of soap box rant.....:woot:

All good points.

What I despise are the petty forum zealots who make it their mission to tell everyone else what they should think or feel, and who will use any tactics, from outright lies to personal insults to attack anyone who dares to disagree with their ideology.

Your ultimate right as a consumer has always been the same, you don't like a product, don't buy it.

It will be a cold day in hell before some anonymous strangers, hiding behind made up internet names, many of whom can't be bothered to check basic facts or put together a coherent argument, will tell me how to spend my $50.

end of my soap box rant...:woot:

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 09:13 AM

Your ultimate right as a consumer has always been the same, you don't like a product, don't buy it.

It will be a cold day in hell before some anonymous strangers, hiding behind made up internet names, many of whom can't be bothered to check basic facts or put together a coherent argument, will tell me how to spend my $50.

You forgot the second ultimate right as a customer: Petition a company to make the product so that you will buy it. Which normally is a standard practice for companies anyway.

And the third right: Boycott a company and call others to boycott.

I never told anyone he shouldn't buy SH5, as best as I can remember. But I know that everyone who buys SH5 sends a signal to UBI that it is okay to remove our customer rights bit by bit. You are shaping the market we all live in, and you are helping to shape it negatively.

That is a simple truth. If you don't want to hear the truth, maybe play SH5 instead if you can log in.

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 09:31 AM

What personal detail do they collect.....

umm lets see

My name... you can put anything you like. they'll never know if its your real name of not.
My age.... ummm i could lie.... but who cares how old (young) i am
my address... again i could lie.... might be problematic if i want a return... but guess i could use the change address to retify it, as and when reqired (even a PO BOX No. if im that worried).
My preferance in games... could be helpful in getting games i like.
When i log in and out... Who really cares if they know this. might be helpful in setting up servers.
My email address... hell i already got 4 email addresses... its easy and free to set up email addresses.

So i dont see what harm to me this data they are collecting could cause. Give me one example of any harm this could cause.

If you fill in wrong information (false name...) you will be in breach of the EULA and they can remove/ban your account.

So assume you are giving them your real data. It will enable them to specifically target ads towards you, even inside 3d games by streaming them directly to your computer. It will tell them how often or not you play the game. If they find a lot of people are playing it a lot, they can raise the prize, or if they find only few people are playing, they might shut down the activation servers and force everyone to upgrade to the next release (like EA does with it's sports titles by shutting down the MP servers.) And of course, if UBIs Servers get hacked, other people might have this data. You don't know if they give it to third parties for cash - maybe they will tell Amazon what games you buy so Amazon can send you newsletters or targeted ads on the website. Maybe one day the next company you apply for a job at will know you like playing "Nazi Computer Games" since they found it in a database put on the web by a miffed ex-employee of UBISoft. Privacy Protection and abuse of personal information is a huge topic in the entire web today and will become even bigger in the future.

I'm not a marketing expert, but it's a simple fact that companies always wanted you to be nice and register your game. Now they can force you to register. Obviously registering your data with them gives them something they want, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

And that is the next point: What do you get for giving them this data? They obviously see a value in it to use for their company planning purposes. You are giving them valuable information while giving up your privacy, but do you get anything in return? Do you get free additional content in your game? Or better prices on the next product? A guarantee that they will patch your favorite bug? Anything?

If you paid 50USD for a game five years ago, you usually got a permanent, non-removable media, you got a manual, you got to keep your privacy if you wanted, and you got to keep control over when and how often you play.

Now you are paying 50USD for a game AND giving the company control over your gaming time AND giving up your privacy too. All the benefits of the new deal are on the company side, you don't get more, you don't get cheaper, you don't get anything out of it, in fact you lose in the deal.

Is that the market you want? Company gets everything they want, you get nothing they don't want to give you?

Control my gaming habits.... lol... their server might crash... there not really controlling my gaming habits tho, are they?

They arnt taking any rights away from you. All laws in your county overide any EULA they may write.

And its not your software... you buy a licence to use their software.

The only problem i can see with this `always online` scheme is if the servers arnt availible and you cant play the game.

But if they didnt try to stop piracy and try to protect their profits, then you prob would never buy a game for your pc. Because if they dont make money then they wont make PC games anymore.

Sure i'd rather not have to use this DRM system but i'd rather use this system then not have any new games to play.

So we all have a choice. Dont buy games or buy games with DRM.
And in most cases the DRM gets patched out after about a year. So you can still buy games without DRM, you'll just have to wait a little longer.

My local Laws might override their EULA. That's not gonna help me much when they shut down the servers in three years since they want everyone to "upgrade" to the new Silent Hunter 6. Or if they announce that the servers are costly to keep running, so everyone has to pay additional 10USD.

Electronic Arts has been doing this for years with their sports games. THAT is what "control over your gaming habits" means. Anytime in the future UBI feels like it, they can take away your game, or demand additional payment from you if you want to keep playing.

And spare me the "If they didn't protect their products they would stop making PC Games" tired old argument. Both SH5 and AC2 have been cracked and are now fully playable, they didn't protect anything from anyone. Yet still they claim they are never going to patch out this UPlay DRM for paying customers, it will stay in the game forever. For what? Controlling YOU.

But obviously you really love big multinational companies having your private data and control over your gaming. I can't understand this, but maybe you are a masochist.

Steeltrap

03-18-10, 09:53 AM

All good points.

What I despise are the petty forum zealots who make it their mission to tell everyone else what they should think or feel, and who will use any tactics, from outright lies to personal insults to attack anyone who dares to disagree with their ideology.

Your ultimate right as a consumer has always been the same, you don't like a product, don't buy it.

It will be a cold day in hell before some anonymous strangers, hiding behind made up internet names, many of whom can't be bothered to check basic facts or put together a coherent argument, will tell me how to spend my $50.

end of my soap box rant...:woot:

Are you suggesting I qualify as trying to "tell you what to do?"

If so, wasn't my intent, and I don't think anything I wrote does that.

jwilliams

03-18-10, 10:04 AM

.
It really is a big conspiracy....
They are gonna take over your life...

all the thing you pointed out are VERY UNLIKELY.

And nowhere in the EULA does it say anything about giving false details.

And all the many games that i've given false details. Still have not banned / removed my account.

And as for the junk mail.... spam filter, even seperate email address for you game registrations.

So as you can see all the things your worried about can be avoided.

And if you truly are worried the i'd sugest you build a bunker and never leave cause someone might see you, know your name, heck they might even put an ad in front of you, scary eh?

Yet still they claim they are never going to patch out this UPlay DRM for paying customers, it will stay in the game forever. For what? Controlling YOU.

Did they???
It quite clearly states in the EULA that the DRM will be removed with a patch.

[Edit] just to add, I believe in the princible of what you'r saying.
DRM...Will i like it... NO. Will i protest, Yes a little (i did sign the pertition against it).

New Zealand's goverment is going to add filters to the internet. Are they taking away my freedom... Yes... but will it really affect me?? It's not like im going to be visiting the sites that will be filtered / censored. In princible i dont like it.... but in the end its not going to effect me... It could be abused by the goverment and they could filter anti goverment stuff. but its very unlikely.
Will we protest... Yes
will we win... i doubt it
will we grow to accept it... yes

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 10:24 AM

Are you suggesting I qualify as trying to "tell you what to do?"

If so, wasn't my intent, and I don't think anything I wrote does that.

It was not aimed at you, Steeltrap, since we have had little interaction on the forum, just like I presume your answer to my post was not aimed at me.

It was more of a general "rant", although I see they have now opened a specific "rant" thread. It feels good to "rant" once in a while...:ping:

..now back to SH5, the more I play this game, the more it grows on me. It may be a keeper. Oddly enough, in now 18 days of playing, I have never had any problem logging in and playing. It's much faster than STEAM...I must lead a charmed life...:arrgh!:

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 10:44 AM

It really is a big conspiracy....
They are gonna take over your life...

all the thing you pointed out are VERY UNLIKELY.

And nowhere in the EULA does it say anything about giving false details.

And all the many games that i've given false details have still not banned / removed my account.

[SNIPPED QUOTE]

[Edit] just to add, I believe in the pricible of what you'r saying.
DRM...Will i like it... NO. Will i protest, Yes a little (i did sign the pertition against it).

New Zealand's goverment is going to add filters to the internet. Are they taking away my freedom... Yes... but will it really affect me?? It's not like im going to be visiting the sites that will be filtered / censored. In princible i dont like it.... but in the end its not going to effect me... It could be abused by the goverment and they could filter anti goverment stuff. but its very unlikely.

You are a riot to read. The perfect "Corporate citizen". I don't mean that as an insult, but look at what you are doing:

1) In a time when identity theft, cybercrime, abuse of personal data is an all time high topic in the entire internet-industry, you say "It will never happen". Look at this video and educate yourself what becomes possible with data mining and abuse of personal information - the kind of information UBI is collecting on you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx9i9TDiYdA

2) I'm fairly sure when you enter a contract with UBI (the EULA they want to enforce) you can't legally do that by giving incorrect personal information. Besides, if there's nothing to worry about, why give them false data?

3) When they are streaming ads targeted towards your geographic location and preferences INSIDE games (which has been done already) you can't "Junk-Filter" those ads. You can't work around a well designed system that has you stay always online.

4) The funniest part is that you say you are against the DRM and even signed the petition, but you bought the game. Why would UBI care what you write in some weird online petition when you PAID THEM MONEY anyway?

5) The example with internet censoring in NZ was even better. Do you KNOW who controls which sites get banned? Do you KNOW if these sites do get a fair and objective process for removal, or if someone can just sneak a site on there that is not "liked"? Do you know how the French "Three Strikes Out" internet policy works?

6) What you are saying is the old "Why worry about Big Brother watching if you have nothing to hide?" History has proven ample times how wrong that sentence is.

Sorry, but you are one of hundred thousand of "customers like sheep" who want instant gratification, buy the hype and while feeling slightly uneasy about possible consequences, decide to simple blank them out in their mind.

How many examples of Software Companies bending the law do you need before you understand that this kind of "They dictate their terms, we have to obey" leads to serious problems in the long term?

Besides, you haven't answered my question: Do you get anything extra by giving them all this data? What's the benefit for you in the deal?

NefariousKoel

03-18-10, 10:49 AM

But if they didnt try to stop piracy and try to protect their profits, then you prob would never buy a game for your pc. Because if they dont make money then they wont make PC games anymore.

Sure i'd rather not have to use this DRM system but i'd rather use this system then not have any new games to play.

:haha::haha::haha:

You really believe that company line?

:haha::haha::haha:

The Enigma

03-18-10, 10:54 AM

@RSColonel_131st

That's exactly my point of view, only I'm not that good in formulating the arguments you use.

Great read. People should be aware of these points of view and stop
relaxing behind the words: "I have nothing to hide".

Soon there will nothing to be left to hide.

jwilliams

03-18-10, 11:07 AM

Besides, you haven't answered my question: Do you get anything extra by giving them all this data? What's the benefit for you in the deal?

They dont have any data on me. apart from an e-mail address. and when i log in and out. and maybe my geographic location (from my IP address).
But i do get some freebies with my uplay points. Skins ATM with more rewards to follow.:yeah:

1. What info do they have that someone could steal my identity? Cant really steal my identity with an e-mail address.

2. I only click agree... dont fill out any details for the EULA. And anyone can make an account with ubisoft. So would only need my correct details if i wanted to use the account as proof to sue Ubi.

3. Streaming ads.... doesnt really bother me, just as long as it doesnt affect my gameplay... if it affected my gameplay then i would choose not to buy the product.... I HAVE A CHOICE.

4. I dont like the idea, im still against the idea and would rather it wasnt there. but i dont feel as strongly about it as you.

5. Yes its possible.... but NZ govement have said that the sites would be assessed (by an independant review board) before they get cencored / filtered.

6. The city i grew up in, there were CCTV cameras on almost every street corner (I grew up in the UK. CCTV outnumbers the population 3 -1). if there were no other people around you could see the camera turn to follow you. being watched by big brother doesnt realy worry me. Maybe you have something to hide?

You dont have to accept what games publishers are doing...... You dont have to buy their games.

You have a choice..... i dont tell you what you should choose.
I have a choice too... why do you feel you need to tell me what i should choose?

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 11:09 AM

Thanks Enigma, at least I know I'm not the only one who ticks that way.

Is it really such a stretch that a pissed-off UBI Employee who gets fired takes a list of usernames and real names from the server and puts them up somewhere for the competition to see (to harm his old company)? Where maybe a Google search by your future employer might find you listed as playing 20 hours of "Nazi U-Boat Sims" a week and thus you do not even get invited for an interview?

Stuff like this has happened in the past. Once the Data is out there, it can never be completely safe, no matter how much the initial collecting company promises to play nice. UBI can't even secure their logon servers against a small scale DDOS attack, but they are to be trusted by giving them private information? What if UBI gets merged with another company which then uses the data for entirely different things?

BTW, to clarify, the French "Three Strikes" model I referenced above means after three copyright violations, you have your internet line disabled (but still need to pay the monthly fees to the provider). As far as I know, there is no judge or court involved in the process, the rights-holders (Companies) can directly submit their claims of infringment to the providers, you don't even get a chance to defend yourself in front of a real judge and with due process. But yeah, Williams, keep believing that internet censorship in NZ will be based "fair assessment". You do know that Software Companies are a very large lobby group in favor of this system?

These Multi-Billion Stock Coporations will violate as much of our customer rights as fully as possible as long as they can get away. They are operating at the legal limit to make the most money. I cringe when I see people like Williams defend these companies and their right to "make their terms".

*******
EDIT: Williams, I just read that you grew up in the UK. I now understand your behaviour - the UK is at the very forefront of monitoring it's citizens. "Maybe you have something to hide" is a laughable argument to make in discussions of this kind. So the choice is either agree to be monitored, or be called a criminal? Brave New World.

I'm not gonna comment on your last sentence, I already did that. If you want to be slave to Corporatocracy, keep buying every title under ever term they throw at you. I mean wow, they gave you free skins for signing away your privacy and handing over control of your gaming time to them. Those benevolent masters must really be pleased with you to hand you such an awesome valuable gift.

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 11:14 AM

you have no problem excluding all persons from PC Gaming who value their privacy and control over their own software, they simple "should not buy" and get the hell out of the market. Thus creating a market where companies have the ultimate say in every transaction and customers are mere sheep throwing their money at them.

I welcome you, my new Sheep Overlord.

But I know that everyone who buys SH5 sends a signal to UBI that it is okay to remove our customer rights bit by bit. You are shaping the market we all live in, and you are helping to shape it negatively.

But obviously you really love big multinational companies having your private data and control over your gaming. I can't understand this, but maybe you are a masochist.

RSColonel_131st,

All you are doing is proving my previous point.

Of course, I can't tell if you really believe what you are writing (which would be really scary) or if you are just willing to say anything at all just to win an argument.

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 11:25 AM

Rat, what would be really scary is if I turn out to be right.

I mean, five years ago, anyone saying you need to be constantly online to play an SP game would have been laughed out of the forum.

Just because you do not want to connect the dots doesn't mean there aren't any dots to connect.

And for the record, I didn't tell anyone to not buy the game. If you don't like reading about the fact that you are signing away your customer rights (like the right to resell an item) by buying the game, then you can simple ignore me.

BTW, what's objectionable about the third quote you included? Isn't it a fact that he signed over his private data and control over gaming time to UBI? What's there to dispute?

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 12:05 PM

BTW, what's objectionable about the third quote you included? Isn't it a fact that he signed over his private data and control over gaming time to UBI? What's there to dispute?

I just rechecked. When you open a Ubi.com or Ubiplay account to play the game, you have to give your name, DoB, country of residence, postal code, choose a user name, user password and email address.

A lot less info than a lot of online retailer require, like Amazon.

The only thing Ubi really requires is a valid user name, user password and email account (just like STEAM), to make sure each game is registered to one user only and is only played online by just that user.

If someone is really paranoid, you can give a fake name, DoB, country, postal code. Ubi does not care. That is what many WoW players have been doing for years. There is even way to sell games, which is again what WoW players have been doing for years. Since you are in the IT industry, you should know how this works.

So again, all your arguments about Big Brother is just a lot of hot air and misdirection. Anyone who is truly worried has many practical alternatives, you should know that.

So we are again left with only our original argument, whether players are willing to buy SH5 despite Ubisoft's online-only requirement. That is the only real sticking point and it's up to each customer to decide.

thyro

03-18-10, 12:49 PM

So again, all your arguments about Big Brother is just a lot of hot air and misdirection.

You seem ignoring the principle that even with that misguided information, your IP address from your ISP links you (even if your real name is Albert but UBI knows you as Lisa).

Also you forget that when you play SH5 it connects your account at certain time, save the file to their server at X time and you disconnect at Y time.

therefore from this "currently little information" I can trace and understand your pathern of playing; such as what time of the day and your game choices as player and soon I'll be able also have built in a game choices to understand your character.... and regarding choices I could even expand more of its potential to gather info on you.

Further more, if IP address isn't much of concern then give a few more years of this Spyware technology can soon be able to know what color is your pants, the pubs you go and how many times you skip playing the online game to go with your misses.

So I'm sorry m8 but you are opening pandoras box.... today is just that and IP address linking your computer activity... tomorrow... online advertising etc, and you will never know if some patch deploys a worm.

Well if you work in IT you should know by now what this door means...

give a finger and any company gets your hand.. give a hand and your arm plus body goes into... Good luck by surrender your details and freedom.

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 01:04 PM

I just rechecked. When you open a Ubi.com or Ubiplay account to play the game, you have to give your name, DoB, country of residence, postal code, choose a user name, user password and email address.

A lot less info than a lot of online retailer require, like Amazon.

The only thing Ubi really requires is a valid user name, user password and email account (just like STEAM), to make sure each game is registered to one user only and is only played online by just that user.

If someone is really paranoid, you can give a fake name, DoB, country, postal code. Ubi does not care. That is what many WoW players have been doing for years. There is even way to sell games, which is again what WoW players have been doing for years. Since you are in the IT industry, you should know how this works.

I'm fairly sure both these things are against either the EULA (which you accepted when you install the game) or even Civil Law. I can't read the SH5 EULA but even without it, any legal contract in real life (and signing up for UPlay likely qualifies as contract) requires your correct personal data do be valid.

Registering a game account under a false name is likely legally the same as registering a prepaid cell phone account under a false name. It's possible to do it in practice, but it violates the terms of the contract and the cell phone provider will simple sue you for possible damages and terminate your account if they find out.

Of course, same for resale. I actually have seen posting on a forum the publisher of Rise of Flight in North America who clearly stated that resale of RoF accounts tied to a "just for RoF" email adress means they will NOT give any technical support to the second hand buyer.

So your two solutions to the problem may be practical, but would likely be illegal (if not currently prosecuted) or lead to problems down the road, for example if you want to get a refund or if you have to somewhere enter credit card details to pay for DLC for a game registered under a false name.

If I were you, I would be less smug and call people's valid observations "Hot Air and Misinformation" if your only counter argument is that you can get around these points by breaking the law or possible risking problems down the road.

And also for the record it isn't "paranoid" to not want UBI or any other company to have that kind of data if it isn't required. It is the right to privacy we all have. It actually speaks volumes about your mindset and how easy you are willing to give up personal information if you construct a wish for privacy as "paranoid". If you don't care for privacy, why don't you tell us your real name, age, and where you live here in this thread?

Amazon needs to know where I live so they can send me the parcel, and they need to know my credit card details so they can transact my payment. Total apples/oranges comparison with a Single Player Game I can buy anonymous in the store, but then have to give UBI all my data just so I can play the game against the computer. Here DRM is the leverage used by UBI to get personal data they wouldn't otherwise have received.

And finally, same question to you: What do we gain as customers for giving away privacy? If I do it at my local grocery store chain, at least I get a customer card with discount benefits (I don't own any of these cards either, BTW, since I don't want them to datamine my buying habits). The grocery store doesn't even ask more than UBI. Same basic dataset - Name, Adress, Age, and then of course the information what you buy and when you buy. It's valuable enough data to them to spend a tidy sum of money (loss of profit on discounts) on getting customers to create such accounts. So there is really no argument that this same data would be worthless to UBI, is there? What are they giving you back for it? Do you think it's cool that they gain something from your registration, but you actually lose something (ability to play without internet or if their servers are down).

Please show me what the value of that DRM-Deal is for you as customer.

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 01:43 PM

You seem ignoring the principle that even with that misguided information, your IP address from your ISP links you (even if your real name is Albert but UBI knows you as Lisa).

Also you forget that when you play SH5 it connects your account at certain time, save the file to their server at X time and you disconnect at Y time.

therefore from this "currently little information" I can trace and understand your pathern of playing; such as what time of the day and your game choices as player and soon I'll be able also have built in a game choices to understand your character.... and regarding choices I could even expand more of its potential to gather info on you.

Further more, if IP address isn't much of concern then give a few more years of this Spyware technology can soon be able to know what color is your pants, the pubs you go and how many times you skip playing the online game to go with your misses.

So I'm sorry m8 but you are opening pandoras box.... today is just that and IP address linking your computer activity... tomorrow... online advertising etc, and you will never know if some patch deploys a worm.

Well if you work in IT you should know by now what this door means...

give a finger and any company gets your hand.. give a hand and your arm plus body goes into... Good luck by surrender your details and freedom.

agreed, but is'nt that the way it already works in this wired world:

-your exact location can be tracked at any time based on your cell phone;

-your credit card company keeps track of your spending habits and will even call you when a purchase appears unusual;

-websites like Amazon or Netflix, will keep track of your browsing habits and make shopping recommendations;

-online publishers like Microsoft, Blizzard and STEAM, among others, have been keeping an eye on their customers for years now.

Anyone that has a credit card, bank card, cell phone, email account, access to the internet has already had his spending habits dissected, correlated and projected.

I am not saying that what Ubi is doing is right, just that they are not the thin edge of wedge invading our privacy. That door was blown wide open a long time ago and Ubi is just tagging along for the ride.

Again, my point is that "invasion of privacy" is a very weak argument against Ubi's online DRM. A much better argument is to stress the requirement to be online all the time and Ubi's server issues.

thyro

03-18-10, 01:54 PM

Again, my point is that "invasion of privacy" is a very weak argument against Ubi's online DRM. A much better argument is to stress the requirement to be online all the time and Ubi's server issues.

I agree to differ

and I'm glad that exist people in this world with different options otherwise would be tedious world to live.

But lets review your argument in 5 years time or possible earlier than that if you would still trust these game companies with your details and if you would still be able to play SH5 or others games released now with this technology.

Cheers

Bilge_Rat

03-18-10, 02:06 PM

I agree to differ

and I'm glad that exist people in this world with different options otherwise would be tedious world to live.

But lets review your argument in 5 years time or possible earlier than that if you would still trust these game companies with your details and if you would still be able to play SH5 or others games released now with this technology.

Cheers

agreed.

RSColonel_131st

03-18-10, 02:55 PM

I am not saying that what Ubi is doing is right, just that they are not the thin edge of wedge invading our privacy. That door was blown wide open a long time ago and Ubi is just tagging along for the ride.

Like I said earlier, while you are right that Amazon, Netflix, Credit Card companies also collect data, they get to do this because it's inherently necessary for the product/service to actually work. I couldn't play WoW offline, so of course Blizzard knows when I log into their multiplayer servers.

But for an SP game there simple is no technical requirement for mandatory online registration. It is entirely and fully added just for datamining.

Besides, the Privacy Discussion started when I mentioned that this was needed for returning the game if I disagree with the EULA. Why does UBI need to know my age when I want to collect an RMA? Basically they are collecting your data for the mine even if you DISAGREE with the terms of their product and want to return it, which means you aren't even a customer then, but they still make you get a full UBI account.

jwilliams

03-18-10, 04:32 PM

In the terms of the law it is not illigal to create a fake profile to use a website, registar a product, or play a game. It is only illegal to use false detail to commit a crime. (Yes giving false details to the police is a crime. but not a website). It is illegal to use a fake ID (forged document) but you dont have to show any ID to Ubisoft.

And as to the cell phone comment.... it's not illegal to give fake name and address to registar the phone.... You dont even have to register it. Its only illegal if you use the phone and fake details to commit a crime.

You dont have to enter any detail in the EULA.... All you do is click Agree.
There is nothing in the EULA that says you cant use a fake name to register the product. There is nothing on the Ubi website that says you cant use a fake name.

The only trace Ubi have on me is my e-mail address that i gave them (which was created just for SH5, so that if i wish i could sell the game). They can get my IP address. but that only links them to my ISP... they would have to contact my ISP to get any other details about me.... And my ISP can only give out my private detail if Ubi have a court order for them to do so.

And as for returning a product if you dont agree to the EULA... you can give a false name, age etc.... and use a PO BOX No. as your address...
Your UBI account can just be a throw away account.

Simple... they have no ID data on you.

And if you really are that paranoide about it, then dont buy the game, use a credit card, buy a car, travel abroad, get a drivers licence, fishing licence, get a dog or walk near any shops because they might be filming you..etc..

Ubisoft are not making you give up your rights to privicy. You still have the choice not to.

thyro

03-18-10, 08:30 PM

You still have the choice not to.

Exactly I couldn't agree more with your last phase.

I don't give away my rights as consumer for any company owner/not of DRM with uncontrolled powers which they can do whatever they want on a PC while someones think is all fine and beautiful.

Lets wait a bit longer till apear the 1st cases of data minding, acounts ranking in market research exposures or even worst IDentity theft. It might not be current case of this DRM.

But the pandora's door is widely open to for exploit and in all your rhetoric vindicate that these companies are allowed to exploit you/anyone in the nearest future.

It isn't a matter of what but more a matter of when it will happen... in time DRM evolves to something far more dangerous than simply verify if your game copy is original.

BTW just pure curiosity can you see what is inside of your saved game that is sent to their server?

In your right opnion you trust software companies to keep their integrity of not consider exploit this dangerous avenue. But as company profit dictates more than any kind of moral opinions and ethics and if marketing research enters this field then you can start kissing goodbye to your info even if its fake.

However, I don't even trust the goverment holding my information, much less trust software houses with intrusive software with simple pretext that DRM is just for software verification and it wont degenerate in something else.

Don't get me wrong I have no issue with game security to make sure is genuine software. But intrusive software no thank you... I do consider it a potential spyware.

For that reason that for me SH5 and any other game with this intrusive software as it is atm will remain on the shelves until the day it gets binned by the shop keeper.

It is just a game so we can well live without with. Cheers