Ubisoft Masterserver down? (merged)

[razark]

I've taken a long break from sub-sims, i used to play a lot of SH3 but i didn't have a PC powerful enough for SH4 when it was released plus i prefer the Atlantic theater of operations. Naturally, i was very excited when SH5 was announced, so i've been following this entire DRM thing for some time.


Yeah, and what part of "don't discuss it here" are y'all missing?

Raises an interesting question through in interesting line of argument, mind you.

Yeah, sadly, the laws here in the US are pretty pro-business. If the customer does something that violates the EULA, the customer would be the one to get squashed.

It might be a decent argument in some other countries, though.

[jwilliams]

@ Blackdog_kt
It is illegal what you are sugesting. How it holds up in court is another story. It's a grey area. So would be best to steer clear.

The distribution and use of cracked copies is illegal in almost every developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_development) country. There have been many lawsuits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit) over cracking software, but most had to do with the distribution of the duplicated product rather than the process of defeating the protection, due to the difficulty of constructing legally sound proof of individual guilt in the latter instance. In the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act) (DMCA) made software cracking, as well as the distribution of information that facilitates software cracking, illegal. However, the law has hardly been tested in U.S. courts in cases of reverse engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering) for personal use only.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] The European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) passed the EU Copyright Directive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Copyright_Directive) in May 2001, which makes software copyright infringement illegal as the member states pass legislation pursuant to the directive.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_cracking

[Mos]

Only distribution is illegal, not possession.

[Reece]

I think UBI should do the right thing now and issue a patch to remove OSP, problem solved!:yep:

[jwilliams]

Only distribution is illegal, not possession.

Let me hightlight it for you :-
The distribution and use of cracked copies is illegal in almost every developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_development) country

[Mos]

Let me hightlight it for you :-
The distribution and use of cracked copies is illegal in almost every developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_development) country

The use of pirated copies of software is illegal. The possession of software to break digital rights management software is not. :)

[jwilliams]

I think UBI should do the right thing now and issue a patch to remove OSP, problem solved!:yep:


What and admit defeat ???


LOL not gonna happen anytime soon :cry:

[razark]

Let me hightlight it for you :-
The distribution and use of cracked copies is illegal in almost every developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_development) country

Use. If you possess it, but do not use it or distribute it, then it's legal?

However, it depends on the laws of the country you are actually in. Some countries are more restrictive.

The use of pirated copies of software is illegal. The possession of software to break digital rights management software is not.

Depends. If you interpret DMCA a certain way, tools that can be used for cracking can be illegal.

In the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act) (DMCA) made software cracking, as well as the distribution of information that facilitates software cracking, illegal.Just for fun, guess what country Subsim is in.

[jwilliams]

The use of pirated copies of software is illegal. The possession of software to break digital rights management software is not. :)


I put a link after my quote.. read it... You might be surprised.

But no one has ever been sued over it.... But it's still illegal in most counties (Not all).

So like I said, Its at best a grey area. Best to steer clear.

[The Enigma]

.......

Interesting point of view.
However, something tells me that if you would send such email to UBI,
they are gonna disable your account and prevent you from loggin in to their servers, since you have violated their EULA.

[Feuer Frei!]

There's no such thing as 100% reliable. I don't see how people, especially knowing about OSP, could expect such a thing. :doh:

Agree!
I read a lot of posts here with gamers indicating how they are shocked, dismayed, flabergasted, curious, angry, unrealistically unreasonable in relation to the notion that a internet connection is continuous, or uninterrupted...
and when the internet goes down, or servers go down then that is totally unforeseeable! (By some people, as if indicating that internet, servers, technology, machinery, or anything else that "runs" never breaks down).
Now before you jump down my throat, yes, i totally agree that Ubisoft should have taken measures to avoid overcooking of servers, and yes, i agree they should not have proceeded with DRM, and yes, you bought a product and yes you are entititled to be able to obtain "proper" use out of that product, and finally, yes, Ubisoft is to blame...
However, to allude or to suggest that it is a mystery and/or a complete enigma and that a connection to Ubisoft's servers will be continuous well, that's a little optimistic.
Ubisoft may have bitten off more than it can chew, ie. Online verification, ie. constant internet connection required, which i'm surprised about because surely they must also realise that nothing is continuous....

Heck, even ISP's are (technically) misinforming people with the advertisements of "unlimited downloads" with a plan......(not sure anywhere else in the world)
but here in Australia most ISP's indicate this, which of course is bollocks, because you are either going to be charged for excess d/loads, or your plan will be shaped....

[Mos]

I put a link after my quote.. read it... You might be surprised.

But no one has ever been sued over it.... But it's still illegal in most counties (Not all).

You're misreading the article. Section 1201 of the DMCA clearly states that it is illegal to circumvent copy protection or distribute software. It DOES allow you to circumvent copy protection on software that you legally own if the copy protection prevents you from using the software in a non-infringing manner.

(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).

The law then specifically prohibits distribution of the software.

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


It says nothing about the use of software that circumvents DRM, only the distribution of it or the use of software that has been circumvented.

Subsim is also protected so long as instructions on cracking the DRM are not distributed. This is by the First Amendment, but also by specific statuatory language. The instructions on cracking the DRM are probably illegal, too.

(4) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing products.

That being said, it is completely understandable that Neal does not wish the forum to be a haven for piracy and such. It's a subsim forum, it's about playing the game. So I don't really want to continue this but I can't help but get drawn into a good ol fashioned legal argument.

[blackdog_kt]

Well, i'm sorry if i got you guys all going in legal circles. As you can see, i mentioned a couple of dozen times the words "legally bought copy" whenever i referred to making alterations and of course i didn't point anyone to sources for illegal files. Again, i didn't advocate piracy, i advocated our collective right to do as we wish with our personal installation of a legally bought and owned copy. It's a fundamental right, similar to remapping the keyboard controls or changing resolutions.

I just wanted to steer the discussion a bit to ways that legitimate owners could exert some pressure on Ubi. Code alterations are just that, but they are treated according to wether they have the potential to make money or lose money for the publishing company. I don't see anyone in an official position fretting over mods for example, as they greatly enhance their game and make it more attractive.

That's natural in a sense and it doesn't mean we should all go on a warped crusade to have everything for free either.

What's needed is some balance here, between what's good for the publishers (so that they can continue making the games we like) and us (so that we don't get frustrated and quit playing them) because there is some co-dependency involved.

I agree that if i sent an e-mail like that to UBI they would probably block my account. If a few thousand people did the same the might still block their accounts, but this DRM platform spreads outside our little niche gaming genre with the potential to turn into an avalanche. Imagine a couple of million users from different gaming genres (as Uplay will be used on everything) with blocked accounts, simply because they essentially told UBI that their version of the game needs improving.

If inability to provide service can be masked behind DDOS attacks (real or imaginary, i don't know and don't care really), it's a whole different story to try and hide that a few million of your customers have been denied service and access to a bought product for simply speaking their mind about it. Taking Ubi to court over server downtime might not be easy, but taking them to court over mass bans that result in the customer effectively getting ripped off is much easier.

As in most things in life, this is a matter of critical mass. Nag them to death with a sufficiently large number of people on your side and they will cave in.

[jwilliams]

We have been nag'n Ubi about their OSP. But their reply was " we are commited to this" So we nagged even more and their reply was " we know you are pissed at this, But we are commited to this".

So they are commited to it... they wont back down. So the only course of action is to not buy their games. then maybe they'll listen.... but most prob, they will abandon the PC and consentrate on consoles.

If the DDoS attack continues and they are unable to stop it. Then they will have to release a patch that enable us to play offline. But how long we will have to put up with not being able to connect is anyones guess.

[razark]

Well, i'm sorry if i got you guys all going in legal circles. As you can see, i mentioned a couple of dozen times the words "legally bought copy" whenever i referred to making alterations and of course i didn't point anyone to sources for illegal files.

See here: (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules2_faq_item)

What is Subsim.com's stance in relation to warez and piracy? SUBSIM Review has a longstanding policy against software piracy. We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez, abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, illegal download sites, or rip-off websites. Nothing will get you banned faster than pointing people to illegal software distribution sites. Don't ask for serial numbers, manuals, or cracks. Any admission that you have in your possession illegal software can and usually will result in revocation of your Radio Room forum account. Support computer game programmers buy legally purchasing their work. They have to eat too, you know.
Again:

Any admission that you have in your possession illegal software can and usually will result in revocation of your Radio Room forum account.
Look, Neal and the moderators don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home, but don't discuss it here.

...in most countries (especially in the EU) local law supersedes any EULA...

Subsim is in the United States. The server is here in Houston, Texas. The laws of the United States apply to said server. If server has illegal content, administrator of server is legally responsible for it.

Circumvention of DRM, as well as information and tools for such, are illegal under the DMCA in the US. If someone from Ubisoft were to complain to Neal's server hosting company, the server would be unplugged, and Subsim would be gone. I know, I used to work for the company.

Granted, this is a worst case scenario, but just go along with Neal's wishes, and don't talk about it here.

<back to my gin and tonic now>

[THE_MASK]

Kid tries to play Silent Hunter 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4U_I1fiOA

[DiverDan]

I'm really curious, but I never tried: How would that work on Amazon, for example? They do have a flat out "no software returns" policy.

Amazon has refunded me in the past for both a game and a music CD. But, I imagine they watch someone as to how many times they do this.

[DiverDan]

To be honest, I am not happy. I still think that this specific DRM is a shame and a slap into the face of the honest customer. But I cannot say that I am happy about the fact that others can't play their legally bought game.

We all knew from the start that those without a reliable, always-on connection would be left out. Who could know that Ubisoft would not be able to provide constant service?
Ok, some of us naysayers painted pictures like that but, to be honest again, I wouldn't have thought that the DRM-Service would go down for hours on end.
I thought that you would get an occasional Server Maintenance here and there, but not complete outages for hours.

Of course it's the Hackers fault who attack the Ubi-Servers. Well, what else should Ubi say?
"Sorry guys, we miscalculated the server load" or "Sorry, that DRM was a bad screwup" would certainly be nothing that Ubi would ever say.

I don't know if it's the Hackers or Ubis fault. I just know that honest people paid money for a game they cannot play when they want.


They blame hackers for having to impose DRM, then they blame hackers for servers being down. Man, these hackers dudes must be supermen.

Oh, and naturally, they'll blame hackers for their dismal sales figures.

[RSColonel_131st]

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but I don't share it. We both know that it is very likely that Ubisoft will drop the OSP after a period of time, just like they did for SH3 (SF) and SH4 (Secureom).

UBI Spokespersons in an interview answered that question in the negative, as in: OSP will remain in the games forever.

They will not drop OSP, like they did with the Security for the previous two. That's what they said.

And if it has already been cracked (which I tend to believe more than people who claim 95% of users are able to play) what good does it do, except be a marketing asset and prevent resale?

[DiverDan]

Reliability issues come in all shapes and sizes; 360s breaking down, PS3 suffering from a calendar bug, PCs getting a virus, etc.

There's no such thing as 100% reliable. I don't see how people, especially knowing about OSP, could expect such a thing. :doh:

That makes no sense. If UBI put a disclaimer on the box saying something like; "Persistence internet connection required to play - Warning! UBI does not guarantee 24 hour access to its servers, game play available only during server uptime." Do you think anyone would purchase it?!

Sure, any reasonable person knows nothing is 100% reliable, but UBI is selling a product that requires just that.

[RSColonel_131st]

@ Blackdog_kt
It is illegal what you are sugesting. How it holds up in court is another story. It's a grey area. So would be best to steer clear.

If there's one thing illegal about this story, then that UBI sells you a game for 50 bucks you can not play because they are unable to protect the necessary infrastructure against the typical internet environment.

[Yorktown_Class]

I have a question,I use to play nascar 2003,until they shut the servers down,granted you can still play in single player mode,but what im wondering,say in a year or 2 UBI decides to shut down there servers for good,what then?
I haven't got the game yet,don't know if I will,but is there a way to keep playing it if they shut the servers down,im thinking no?
EA seems to like to shut down server too after a year or so.

thanks:)

[jwilliams]

If there's one thing illegal about this story, then that UBI sells you a game for 50 bucks you can not play because they are unable to protect the necessary infrastructure against the typical internet environment.


I agree, Ubi should have the infrastructure to cope with what ever is happening to their servers.... and Ubi's customers have every right to complain. And what you do is your own business. but to say you do and to tell others to do the same in a public forum is not the way to go.

[Arclight]

That makes no sense. If UBI put a disclaimer on the box saying something like; "Persistence internet connection required to play - Warning! UBI does not guarantee 24 hour access to its servers, game play available only during server uptime." Do you think anyone would purchase it?!
Wait, what? Have you seen the box? That's exactly what it says, minus the 'warning' part. :doh:

When it says "permanent connection required", anyone with some surfing experience will know there will be trouble ahead; sometimes sites are unreacheable, or you just can't connect to anything at all.

[jwilliams]

I have a question,I use to play nascar 2003,until they shut the servers down,granted you can still play in single player mode,but what im wondering,say in a year or 2 UBI decides to shut down there servers for good,what then?
I haven't got the game yet,don't know if I will,but is there a way to keep playing it if they shut the servers down,im thinking no?
EA seems to like to shut down server too after a year or so.

thanks:)

Ubi have said
OSP is here to stay. We dont plan to shut our servers down. we really dont!
But if we do we plan to release a patch to remove the online connection.
And when asked do you promise to release a patch if the servers are switched off they said
Thats the plan

So they sorta didnt say the would :nope:

Your guess is as good as mine. :06:

[Gammelpreusse]

The warning part however what is the point.

"Constant internet connection required" is a nice phrase UBI should take to heart itself.


Anyways, since this whole login affair I can't access the game anymore. The lanucher starts, the game starts, but the game now freezes completly when it comes to syncing the save files after the game loaded up. Deactivating internet saves in the launcher did not help solve the problem.

I'd be very grateful for ideas before doing a reinstall.

[jwilliams]

That makes no sense. If UBI put a disclaimer on the box saying something like; "Persistence internet connection required to play - Warning! UBI does not guarantee 24 hour access to its servers, game play available only during server uptime." Do you think anyone would purchase it?!

Sure, any reasonable person knows nothing is 100% reliable, but UBI is selling a product that requires just that.

They did put a disclamer.

Its called the EULA. It would say something along the lines of :-
Ubisoft will not be held responsible for any outage of internet/ servers etc.

And you Clicked AGREE when you installed it.

If you didnt agree you could have taken it back within 30 days for a full refund. but if you installed it then you've already agreed to it.

[Brons]

They did put a disclamer.

Its called the EULA. It would say something along the lines of :-
Ubisoft will not be held responsible for any outage of internet/ servers etc.

And you Clicked AGREE when you installed it.

If you didnt agree you could have taken it back within 30 days for a full refund. but if you installed it then you've already agreed to it.

In a lot of countries the EULA has no legal value.

[jwilliams]

Anyways, since this whole login affair I can't access the game anymore. The lanucher starts, the game starts, but the game now freezes completly when it comes to syncing the save files after the game loaded up. Deactivating internet saves in the launcher did not help solve the problem.

I'd be very grateful for ideas before doing a reinstall.

Ubi servers are having problems.... not much you can do except wait for them to sort them out.

[NefariousKoel]

If you didnt agree you could have taken it back within 30 days for a full refund. but if you installed it then you've already agreed to it.

The EULA holds no legal backing if it is in defiance of Copyright rulings which much of this atrocious DRM, coming out lately, does.

It would get shot out of the sky in a US court.

[jwilliams]

In a lot of countries the EULA has no legal value.

yes depends where you live and what your rights are in the county your in.....
But i doubt you could sue Ubi for there servers being out for a little while.... If ubi servers are out for a long time then you might have a case.

I was just pointing out that Ubisoft did say there are not liable in the EULA.

[Arclight]

The warning part however what is the point.
Well, like I said, it's implied. When the box says "permanent connection", people should realize that there's no such thing since it's possible to have connection problems.

If only people were more familiar with Murphy's law. :lol:



Sorry, no idea about save issues. Maybe back up your saves and delete the originals, might get past it if there's nothing to sink. Could be they're still suffering from the cause of the previous downtime.

[Gammelpreusse]

They did put a disclamer.

Its called the EULA. It would say something along the lines of :-
Ubisoft will not be held responsible for any outage of internet/ servers etc.

And you Clicked AGREE when you installed it.

If you didnt agree you could have taken it back within 30 days for a full refund. but if you installed it then you've already agreed to it.


EULAs are not binding in Germany, which was reinforced by court rulings several times, as they most of the time infringe on customer rights.


@Arclight:

Already deleted the whole gamelauncher temp folder, to no avail. I am not sure if it's still a connection problem, given others are capable to play, or if the constant hickups caused an error in saving which now comes back into biting my bottom. The complete freeze of the game which I can only escape by pressing ALT+TAB+DELETE in my expirience rather indicates a software problem.

I suppose it's going to be a reinstall after all.

[JScones]

If you paid for the game knowing about DRM and you couldn't log on to the servers because of a hacker DOS attack... who is responsible for preventing you from logging on?
Ubisoft, they're the one providing the service. They should have considered hackers when they chose to implement DRM. They obviously failed to adequately consider the impact of DDoS; the result being lack of server availability. People paid Ubisoft $50 with the expectation that Ubisoft would provide a game that is playable (after all, Ubisoft did say that DRM would be generally non-intrusive). Thus Ubisoft should have done their homework first and risk mitigated expected events such as DDoS. If they couldn't risk mitigate DDoS to an acceptable level (in line with their non-intrusive claims), then they should have implemented an alternative form of protection. Simple.

And now... the ubiquitous car analogy.

I buy a car from the dealership, complete with anti-theft devices.

Someone smashes the window and defeats the anti-theft device and steals my car.

Do I call the cops and have the dealership arrested?

JCC
Erm, poor analogy. In your case it's obvious, a crime has been committed against you. Although, you may have recourse against the anti-theft device's manufacturer, depending on their warranty/guarantee, so in a way they may well accept some of the responsibility, thus "blame".

In the case of Ubisoft, a crime has been committed against them...of course they would pursue the hackers. But the crime has only impacted their service to you. Different scenario. No crime has been committed against you by anyone, you've only been affected by a service provider's inability to offer a service. Thus, the service provider is the one you should have issues with, not the "evil bad pirates". They're merely the cause. Your agreement is with Ubisoft, not the hackers. As I stated elsewhere, if the cause was a server crash instead, would you be so vehemently against the server manufacturer?

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't condone piracy, but levelling 100% of the blame to pirates and hackers for the whole DRM fiasco when it was Ubisoft that implemented it is a bit, erm, let's just say "convenient".

[hyperion2206]

@JScones:

I totally agree with you on that one. Imagine this:Somebody hacks into your computer and does something illegal e.g. download music. Who do you think is held responsible in the first place? The hacker or you,who did not secure his computer enough?

The same rule would apply for UBI Soft. They have to make sure their system is safe or else.

Of course the Hackers should and will be punished if they get caught. But that will be a matter between UBI and the Hackers. But that's not the problem of the customer. He or she can expect that UBI has done everything to protect their systems from hacks.

BTW: I'm really glad that I don't meet the requirements to run that game, 'cause I know I would've bought it allthough I would have known better^^

[cappy70]

I've just got a simple question to ask John Channing and any body else who has bought this game -

What made you think that a game that has to be connected to remote servers to play 100% of the time was ever going to be 100% reliable?

:88)

The point as I said in my prev. post: When we were doing the testing of this "other" DRM game, the real issue was the "constant" Internet connection; Why?,,due to various facts that we all know, one among others is of course the word "constant", Internet doesn't mean "constant".:know:

[tater]

Spot on, jscones.

A proper car analogy:

A car service hires out cars with drivers to take people to the airport. People book this service weeks in advance, and they do hundreds of pick-ups and deliveries per day. They have exactly the number of cars they need to do their X hundred trips per day, no more. Their cars are left each night in an unlocked yard with the keys on the dashboard. The limo company also hires drivers known to be only somewhat reliable and they have exactly the number of drivers they need, 1 per car.

Now, if any of the unsecured cars is stolen or vandalized, someone misses a flight. If an employee doesn't show, someone misses a flight. If a car needs maintenance, someone misses a flight. Note that people only know they will miss their flight when the car doesn't show up, they are given no warning.

Now in the above example, when cars are stolen from the lot is IT partially the fault of the thieves/vandals that people miss flights. But it is MOSTLY the fault of the limo service for not having the due diligence that locking the gates and keys up would represent. It's also their fault for not having excess employees or cars, so that if one or more are sick/not working, that the schedule can still function.

There's your car analogy, John.

[Onkel Neal]

Here's your car analogy, tater. Terrorists rent a plane and drop a bomb and blow up the lot.

[Bilge_Rat]

How many players are still having problems logging in?

I played last night and this morning and had zero issues logging in. This is from Canada.

[RSColonel_131st]

That would be a tad more unpredictable than a DDOS attack on a high profile game server, Neil.

I really ask: At what point - in your opinion - begines UBIs responsibility to maintain their servers? Only in a world with no hackers?

[Schunken]

Im out, I do not get it....:hmmm:

Can we do some math instead this stupid analogys in a foreign language? :D


Andreas

[Onkel Neal]

Im out, I do not get it....:hmmm:

Can we do some math instead this stupid analogys in a foreign language? :D

Andreas

Lol, I love you, man :up:




That would be a tad more unpredictable than a DDOS attack on a high profile game server, Neil.

I really ask: At what point - in your opinion - begines UBIs responsibility to maintain their servers? Only in a world with no hackers?

Well, Colonel, :DL I would agree with you that Ubisoft and Steam and Blizzard and ATT and Comcast have an obligation to keep their services available, but no one, not ever Obama, can ensure total reliability in the face of deliberate and provacative attacks. No system is perfect. Heck, you see me post here every day and cannot even spell my simple name correctly. :O:

[Gammelpreusse]

Well, Colonel, :DL I would agree with you that Ubisoft and Steam and Blizzard and ATT and Comcast have an obligation to keep their services available, but no one, not ever Obama, can ensure total reliability in the face of deliberate and provacative attacks. No system is perfect. Heck, you see me post here every day and cannot even spell my simple name correctly. :O:

But that is the whole point why folks get so upset. A single player offline game, which due to its very nature should never have the problem the likes of big internet games, gets all the disadvantages coming with the latter without a single benefit. As you stated yourself, no system, especially internet based systems, are perfect, so the very promise beforehand of stable servers was a lot of hot air to begin with.

Your very entry here makes this clear. Is a certain hostility towards such a policy that hard to understand?

[RSColonel_131st]

Well, Colonel, :DL I would agree with you that Ubisoft and Steam and Blizzard and ATT and Comcast have an obligation to keep their services available, but no one, not ever Obama, can ensure total reliability in the face of deliberate and provacative attacks. No system is perfect. Heck, you see me post here every day and cannot even spell my simple name correctly. :O:

The whole point a lot of us made before release was "No system is perfect."

But UBI designed something that implies a flawless, always available internet connection from your end to their end. If that isn't the definition of "Perfect", then what is?

Besides, unless there are some really hardcore cyber criminals at work here, with millions of botnet zombies, this DDOS (if there is one) can't be that large.

And if you look at Rise of Flight - which has now dropped this online requirement - they managed multiple unpredicted (and a few planned) server downtimes entirely without any DDOS attack.

Heck, you run a massive web forum, I don't need to tell you how fragile internet infrastructure is. But then, maybe UBI shouldn't have set on such an easy to break system?

[tater]

Here's your car analogy, tater. Terrorists rent a plane and drop a bomb and blow up the lot.

With all respect, Neal, that's not a good analogy at all. Terrorists bombing a car lot is simply without precedent. People stealing or vandalizing cars on a lot is COMMON. DDOS attacks are COMMON. Other game servers have also been attacked, and any competent network admin would know this.

The analogy of an unsecured, or poorly secured lot in in fact demonstrably true, as last weekend demonstrates clearly.

Again, if you want an analogy, you cannot cite some extremely unlikely event that disrupts service, you need to pick a COMMON event that disrupts service since DOS attacks are COMMON.

[tater]

Neal, as was said above the inherit unreliability and lack of control over connectivity is THE WHOLE POINT.

Since it is prohibitively expensive to guarantee connectivity—and even then, as you say, nothing is perfect—a requirement for connectivity is fundamentally wrong-headed.

I think it is entirely fair for customers to demand 100% reliability for the game company in connectivity if it is a requirement of ownership (meaning 100% reliability of the game company servers). 100%, no visible failures to the end user EVER. If Ubi (or anyone else) cannot guarantee that at least they can hold up their own end, they need to do something else for DRM.

I for one will never buy a product dependent on someone else's computer unless there is a truly compelling reason to do so (and no, I will not back down, if my wife bought me SH5 I'd take it back, if I was given one I could not return I'd not install it). Such a reason would be a requirement for connectivity fundamental to gameplay or simulation. Not ginned up, either, fundamental. Like human opponents, or weather delivered in real time based on current weather everywhere on earth, etc (like you look at the most recent RL sat picture, then look up n game and the clouds match). Even weather is marginal there, frankly. Past some AI played by humans I can think of little that is really compelling frankly.

[razark]

Here's your car analogy, tater. Terrorists rent a plane and drop a bomb and blow up the lot.

And that makes the car you already purchased and drove home stop working?

[tater]

And that makes the car you already purchased and drove home stop working?

He was responding to MY analogy of SH5 as a service like a limo/taxi service.

Note that my analogy already absorbs the notion of SH5 as a SERVICE and not something you OWN.

[blackdog_kt]

This analogy game is fun :DL

My take on this whole DDOS attack is that Ubisoft decided to use a system without taking into account the prevailing threats against it and they should be held responsible.

In playing along with the analogy game, let's say a company designs a different kind of "car", one that's meant to transport people in hazardous environments, like for example soldiers in a combat zone.

If the company does not account for the prevailing threats in the theater of operations where the vehicles will be used and the soldiers drop like flies, then who do you think the "customers" of the vehicle (the army) will hold responsible for that failure? The enemy combatants? Well, they are already on opposing sides, but most of all, they already expect them to act that way.

And that's why they get irritated. A company that takes their money to provide them with a certain service doesn't expect and fails to account for things that they as customers already know will happen. That means the company is either too stupid and should be in a different business field, or too caught up in the pursue of its own goals to provide reliable service for the cash it receives. Since stupid people don't go far in business, it's looking more and more like the company is preferring short term money benefits over long term benefits that stem from customer satifsaction, off-loading any and all implications of their poor design on the customer as a result.

Sure, if such a company was responsible for designing a faulty IFV where a few dozen soldiers were killed, everyone would say that the casualties were primarily a cause of enemy action, but would still demand reparations from the company for failing to take into account the prevailing threats when designing, advertising and selling it. ;)

[razark]

He was responding to MY analogy of SH5 as a service like a limo/taxi service.

Note that my analogy already absorbs the notion of SH5 as a SERVICE and not something you OWN.

Ack. I see now. There's too dang many car analogies around here these days.

[ParaB]

Great. Just started SH5 and AGAIN there's problems with the server. 3rd day in a row, words fail me...

:har:

[drtechno]

He was responding to MY analogy of SH5 as a service like a limo/taxi service.

Note that my analogy already absorbs the notion of SH5 as a SERVICE and not something you OWN.

Fine, if you want that analogy - You own the right to USE that service. Ubisoft has NO RIGHT to DENY you the use of that service for no identifable reason.

Who cares tho. The issue is that they are using an OVERLY RESTRICTIVE DRM implementation. They did not HAVE to use this system, and its implementation is UNREASONABLY limiting our use of the product we have legitimately paid for. It was their choice to use this system, and it therefore is their CHOICE to limit access/use of the product to times when their servers are up and your internet connection is good.

One issue is whether this is reasonable considering they could have implemented more 'standard' DRM.. The other is do they have this right.

[java`s revenge]

The DRM problem strikes me today...:damn:
Problem caused by :arrgh!:

I have no words.:wah:

Guys,

I remembered a post on this forum of sometime ago that
ubi didn`t use the DRM system for shv or am i dreaming :yawn:

[John Channing]

I've just got a simple question to ask John Channing and any body else who has bought this game -

What made you think that a game that has to be connected to remote servers to play 100% of the time was ever going to be 100% reliable?

:88)

What makes you think that I thought that?

I am an adult, who made an informed decision to purchase the product for a number of reasons. I knew there was a possibility that something like this could happen and I accepted that "risk".

In the final analysis it's just a game. If I can play it... great. If I can't there are plenty of other things I can be doing.

All of this will fade away. The idiots who are running the DOS atack will move onto something else (who says ADD is all bad), the devs will produce patches that fix the core elements that modders can't and the modders will customize this into something which, I believe, will be the greatest Sub simulation ever (if only it was Fleetboats, alas).

And I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I did my bit to keep the genre alive.

JCC

By the way.... nice choice of emoticons. Was that directed at me?

[DiverDan]

They did put a disclamer.

Its called the EULA. It would say something along the lines of :-
Ubisoft will not be held responsible for any outage of internet/ servers etc.

And you Clicked AGREE when you installed it.

If you didnt agree you could have taken it back within 30 days for a full refund. but if you installed it then you've already agreed to it.

"I" didn't agree to anything. I took it back for a refund without opening it. It seems some folks don't understand the difference between the internet and a server. Most people understand the internet has hiccups. What they don't understand is why their internet is working, but UBI servers aren't.

[Hyfrydle]

Another evening trying to play my legally paid for game this is getting beyond a joke is a crack available to allow me to play my game?

Ubisoft must realise they have made a huge mistake!!!!

[guillaume35]

the internet connexions has problems :damn::damn::damn:2 days at 2 pm no problems

[tater]

Fine, if you want that analogy - You own the right to USE that service. Ubisoft has NO RIGHT to DENY you the use of that service for no identifable reason.

Who cares tho. The issue is that they are using an OVERLY RESTRICTIVE DRM implementation. They did not HAVE to use this system, and its implementation is UNREASONABLY limiting our use of the product we have legitimately paid for. It was their choice to use this system, and it therefore is their CHOICE to limit access/use of the product to times when their servers are up and your internet connection is good.

One issue is whether this is reasonable considering they could have implemented more 'standard' DRM.. The other is do they have this right.

Did you miss the fact that in every single post about this I've excoriated the current OSP DRM scheme?

My analogy was an ATTACK on the DRM, lol. I accepted it as a service to show that even with that assumption, OSP is absurd, broken, and should be abandoned as impractical.

[floundericiousWA]

If only there was DRM in the war - Germany wouldn't have even got as far as invading Poland... :roll:

Would that be like a "Denial of Swastika" attack?

[col_Kurtz]

Here's your car analogy, tater. Terrorists rent a plane and drop a bomb and blow up the lot.

Are you sure... about this terrorists? I heard, the governement is the biggest terrorist... Governnement start the war, not the people or nations :|\\
So... Bad analogy.

[Yorktown_Class]

Ubi have said

And when asked do you promise to release a patch if the servers are switched off they said


So they sorta didnt say the would :nope:

Your guess is as good as mine. :06:

thanks J:)

[RSColonel_131st]

And I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I did my bit to keep the genre alive.

Is this why you and Neil are so defensive of UBI? Being worried that the "genre will die"?

I mean, right now the first reports are surfacing that the campaign is now also playable in the "bad" version. So you are willing to defend a DRM that didn't stop pirates but gives them a way to stop customers from playing (by design of the publisher), because you are worried the publisher would drop the SH franchise?

[hyperion2206]

Is this why you and Neil are so defensive of UBI? Being worried that the "genre will die"?

I mean, right now the first reports are surfacing that the campaign is now also playable in the "bad" version. So you are willing to defend a DRM that didn't stop pirates but gives them a way to stop customers from playing (by design of the publisher), because you are worried the publisher would drop the SH franchise?

If that's the future for the Silent Hunter series then I think it's time to let it die. :salute:

[robbo180265]

If that's the future for the Silent Hunter series then I think it's time to let it die. :salute:

Sad but true in my opinion.

Even sadder that it will be the so called "protection" that kills SH.

I subscribe to many forums and from what I can tell most are like me, they wont buy Silent Hunter or any other game that has this DRM included.

UBI are killing PC gaming with this and the whole situation is made worse by their silence....

[Baleur]

What the ****.... "invalid username / password".
AGAIN?

I could possibly MAYBE understand it enough when it happened the first day the game was released and everyone was pounding the useless pointless login servers (which wouldnt be needed if they did not treat paying customers as criminals).

But now? Again? A random sunday?
So what, is this going to happen randomly all the time now? A week from now, a month from now, a year from now?
Why did i pay for this.. :arrgh!:

[Gato76]

Same here :down:

[Baleur]

Sorry for profanity, dunno what the forum rules are on that, but sometimes its justified :(
*goes off to Bad Company 2 for some mindless ragekilling*

edit: okay this is really funny, EA Online is down now too. lolz

[wolf24]

"invalid username / password".

same here :damn::damn:

[Ping Jockey]

Yup!!! It's down again!!!!!!:down::down::down:

[oscar19681]

Same here! First time i ran into trouble. Was at my girlfrend yesterday evening when the server went down. I just wanted to try a mod out so i exited the game. When i wanted to play i got incorrect name/password.
I bought sh-5 despite of the DRM thing and i think sh-5 lives up to my expecations. And so does DRM . And i dont mean the last thing in a positive way.

[LiveGoat]

Yep. I had been loged in and running since 11pm last night, then just now, dumped to desktop. Tried logging in, no dice.

[Ducimus]

Took the words right outta my mouth. Yeah yeah, i know i said i wasn't gonna play it for awhile. :shifty:

[iron heart]

Yes same hear it went off for me in the last 20 mins god dam hear we go again ffs:damn::damn:

p.s i have just gotten a response from a fourm moderater after i compliand at the lack of responce and statments from ubi and he has stated he will try and find out what ubi are going to do my post is on the ubi sight under lack of response from ubi under the name qfe1013, i was posting that when the game server droped gess id better get back and do some more bitching in the wind on there again

[dogboat]

We are the 5%. can someone tell me why ???:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2: poor show

[oscar19681]

This sucks to bad! Next time i want to hop out of the game ill alt tab out of the game to see if there is any reason to believe that i might not be able to get back in. That is if the server itself doesnt kick me off because the so called perfect connection had lost "connection".
If feel so much like a freakin pirate , but the strange thing is i payed the game legally with my hard earned money.

[rsvette12]

Same here this is nuts :hmmm: :wah:

Rich

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Here to. Nothing else to say.

[Phoenix3000]

Same here! :damn:

Just tried it for the first time this weekend, and "invalid username/password" error appears...

This is an absolute joke! :down:

[Gato76]

Sorry for profanity, dunno what the forum rules are on that, but sometimes its justified :(
*goes off to Bad Company 2 for some mindless ragekilling*

edit: okay this is really funny, EA Online is down now too. lolz
This DRM thing is disgusting,haven't play the game in 4 days,so i wanna play today,my day off and i can't :rock:

[Elphaba]

Yup me too.

Even their 'secure.ubi.com/login' servers are down - I was bite another chunk out of 'Mr_Shade''s a$$ as we've been 'conversing' about last Sundays frak ups...

I work in the Games industry as a programmer, but even I think this Orwell-ian POS sux.

Grrrrrr

Elphaba

[fideco]

Same here from Italy:Invalid password.. bla bla.....
No words...:damn:

[dangrey]

same here, everyting worked fine since I first played the game from 27/02.

"Ubisoft - you can't play when you want to"

[Mud]

lol Ubi :yeah:


Mud

[Faamecanic]

2:30 US EST ....same here. Invalid Username or Password.

Ubi.... your not even good enough to lick the sweat off my..... well we wont go there. :nope: :down: :nope:

[Iridium]

I guess there's just one thing left for me to do, gonna pack my bags and move on my way
Cause I got a worried mind sharin' what I thought was mine....
Gonna leave her where the guitars play

I got a DRM server, it stays down all day....

[tracker]

Hi my internet must be ok as i am posting this tried to logon it says it has lost all my saved games and then crashed retried now i cannot login .
My iternet is not good so between it and unisoft i can it is a pain in the butt :damn::damn::damn::damn:.
ps like the game but will i have a problem if the do automatic patch upgrades if i am running added mods ????.
moders:salute::salute::salute::salute:

[ZeInfidel]

lol,another sunday evening "drama" on subsim.com?:DLStay tuned.............

[MaciejK]

Experienceing the same issues.

[robbo180265]

What really sucks is that when their server crashes so does their forum. This means that (unlike MMO's) you cant post and tell them exactly how bad you think their service is. They also can't make an announcement explaining what the problem is.

Everyone is left in the dark and angry.

[Japo32]

Same problems here. Servers down. Ok.. This will be my last buyed game with this level of DRM protection. Sorry, find better solutions! :down:

[Davy TASB]

Enoough is enough. This POS is going back for a refund tomorrow.:woot:


Shame on you UBI soft, you are so concerned about piracy that you have forgotten to look after the people who have invested good money in your products. :88)

[BlackSpot]

This never happens on Crane Simulator 2009 :DL
... not that I ... I mean ... I didn't actually... rather I dont ...

I'll get my coat :oops:

[Subwolf]

I've had no DRM problems since I installed the game a few days ago, and today I loaded a ton of mods, starting the game to see how it looks and oops...wrong username and password:rotfl2:

But ubi.com says their website is currently undergoing maintenance, and it will be available again shortly. Yeah right..

I wonder if this is true, or if it's just another server breakdown. Looks like they can't handle the traffic, especially during weekends since the same thing happened last Sunday :doh:

[jhelix70]

Unexpected this is...and unfortunate...

To the darkside they have gone. :nope:

[jlederer]

2:40 EST - I was in game and it lost contact with server, tried to get back in and got invalid pwd/userid.

However...I found that internet was down for all PCs in my house...for a few minutes...then started working again, but subsim and yahoo are still responding a slowly right now. It may be that the net is slow and that's causing UBI to time-out although UBI servers aren't necessarily down.

In any case, yep, it's sunday afternoon and yep, can't play my single-player game again. Grrr.

[Ablemaster]

Was wodering what was going on, should of known, here we go again.

[pythos]

Was on since last night, then as I am backing out of Wilhemlshafen after a restock.

And boom, booted to desk top.

Tried to get back on, and I get invalid user name and password.

Ubi servers strike me. LOL

Idiots. This DRM is the stupidest thing ever for a game company to do.

[oscar19681]

Same problems here. Servers down. Ok.. This will be my last buyed game with this level of DRM protection. Sorry, find better solutions! :down:

I would actually go as far as calling this a solution.

[oscar19681]

Enoough is enough. This POS is going back for a refund tomorrow.:woot:


Shame on you UBI soft, you are so concerned about piracy that you have forgotten to look after the people who have invested good money in your products. :88)

SH-5 is just way to good with all the mods to bring it back. But the rest was well said.

[Letum]

Did you chaps just not think this kind of thing would happen?
/incredulous.

[Mud]

This never happens on Crane Simulator 2009 :DL
... not that I ... I mean ... I didn't actually... rather I dont ...

I'll get my coat :oops:

:rotfl2::rotfl2::up:


Mud

[robbo180265]

This never happens on Crane Simulator 2009 :DL
... not that I ... I mean ... I didn't actually... rather I dont ...

I'll get my coat :oops:


:rotfl2::har::rock:

[Lt commander lare]

the same thing just happened to me the master servers are down again they need to release a patch for offline play as they stated that they would do when the master servers were down all the time as i see ubisoft has screwed us again


Lt Commander Lare

[bart]

Yep......same here!!!:nope:

Been itching to play all weekend, first chance I get and.....can't

I've been fairly patient about the downfalls of the game and looking forward to it getting better and better, but this is the first time the DRM has affected me and to be honest it's a farce.

Most things are fixable in the game, bugs etc. but this DRM thing just needs to be taken off.....now. It's ridiculous

[Der_Meister]

I'll just stick with SH3 GWX 3.0, this is ridiculous.

[GoldenRivet]

I would be willing to bet that this is currently affecting 90% of users if not 100% of them.

this cannot continue! Ubi... lets get rid of this nonsense OSP

Texas

No connectivity

username and password error

time: 1856 Z

[oscar19681]

I,m wondering how long ity will take before i can play again. tommorow i have the day off. But i can only imagine the anger most people have because tommorow they must work again. I really dont think the game will be playable before tommorow. I though starforce was bad , but at least some time later you could mail them with the key-code and they would return a mail with a code to turn off the key-code so you could play. But DRM is so ****ed up i cant help be amazed but the brutality UBI has not adressing the problem and not even putting out something official regarding the problem at all.

[SabreHawk]

Ya ok for the first time since I got SH5 last friday im getting the "incorrect username or password" message. And UBI's site is showng a 404 error. Which for me yesterday wasnt having a problem and I could even get into the forums there.
So me thinks there must surely be something wrong on UBI's end. But up until today, I have experienced no problems that weren't my own. And I was running it early this morning too at about uhhh, 6:00am to about 7:30am.
But just now a few minutes ago at 10:45am I got the same result as ya'all.

But, no need to curse or get beligerant, gaming isn't all there is to life and I've had a good week of it alredy. I need a break actually.
I'll see if I can call them, thats worked before.:yep: And besides, the weather aint bad out, I ought to get out and go R/C flying anyway as I have a new Stearman to maiden, and I need some fesh air.:hmmm:
I'll let ya's know.;)

[GoldenRivet]

I have a new Stearman to maiden

NICE

send pics :salute:

[jason210]

I,m wondering how long ity will take before i can play again. tommorow i have the day off. But i can only imagine the anger most people have because tommorow they must work again.

Indeed. We play such games to relax and enjoy a bit of escapism. Being tied to a server as with this DRM system takes the fun and freedom out of it.

Ubisoft's contantly online system is giving DRM a bad name.

[oscar19681]

Ya ok for the first time since I got SH5 last friday im getting the "incorrect username or password" message. And UBI's site is showng a 404 error. Which for me yesterday wasnt having a problem and I could even get into the forums there.
So me thinks there must surely be something wrong on UBI's end. But up until today, I have experienced no problems that weren't my own. And I was running it early this morning too at about uhhh, 6:00am to about 7:30am.
But just now a few minutes ago at 10:45am I got the same result as ya'all.

But, no need to curse or get beligerant. I'll see if I can call them, thats worked before.:yep: And besides, the weather aint bad out, I ought to get out and go R/C flying anyway as I have a new Stearman to maiden, and I need some fesh air.:hmmm:
I'll let ya's know.;)

Really i dont apriciate if people curse or get angry on the forum. But this time people have every right to. Thank Ubi.

[SteveTRM]

THIS IS REALLY S*** - SH5 BUGS IS ENOUGH TO DEAL WITHOUT HAVING TO DEAL WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME WE PAID GOOD MONEY FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFS! Not Happy at All!

[Mud]

But DRM is so ****ed up i cant help be amazed but the brutality UBI has not adressing the problem and not even putting out something official regarding the problem at all.

And that bothers me the most.

Edit: Hey Steve mate :)


Mud

[oscar19681]

Yes at least have a dedicated forum or place where we could report problems like this. How are they ever gonna find out we are having problems with logging in? Or must we pay even more money to make a phone call to report this? If so then i must confess is a great way to suck the money out of our pockets!

[Harcor]

same here munich germany sunday 20:04 evening. Now i have time after all the dad and husband stuff and this happens..... this is not funny anymore

[Duli]

It doesnt work for me aswell, incorrect username and pasword. I bought SH3, SH4 and now I bought SH5 yesterday, today it doesnt work anymore. :down: Tommorow I am going away for 5 days, so looks like I wont be able to play the game until next week. :-? ******* you, Ubi...

[SabreHawk]

Really i dont apriciate if people curse or get angry on the forum. But this time people have every right to. Thank Ubi.

Oh I hear ya, but what good does it do? Just because we have a right to do or say something, doesn't mean we should.
I have a right to go jump off a cliff, but I certainly shouldn't. And it wouldnt change a thing is this world but make it one less human for which it has no use for.:O:

Ok, im gonna give'em a call and see what happens.

[oscar19681]

I dont really care UBI cares anyway! They must be eating in a expensive restaustant from the money they earned and laughing there ass if because we exepted the DRM.

[bart]

looks like everyone's down......:nope:

This farce should convince ubi to bin the DRM and let us play what we paid for.......

[Subwolf]

Look here www.ubi.com (http://www.ubi.com)

So let's stay calm for a while a see what happens, maybe they're actually trying to fix the problems once and for all, as we speak...there's still hope ;)

[oscar19681]

looks like everyone's down......:nope:

This farce should convince ubi to bin the DRM and let us play what we paid for.......

If by now they dont understand they should get rid of DRM then i can only say , by by UBI.

[piri_reis]

:down: Incorrect username/pass for my connection from Turkey. :down:

[Duli]

The most ridicolous thing is, that pirate version works without internet connection, and probably works fine, while we who bought the original game, cant play it. It used to be vice versa before this idiotic DRM system.

[oscar19681]

The most ridicolous thing is, that pirate version works without internet connection, and probably works fine, while we who bought the original game, cant play it. It used to be vice versa before this idiotic DRM system.

It almost sounds like a bad joke doesnt it?

[utops]

This is how it looks like:


http://94.23.42.229/pics/23b7e371173b.gif

[oscar19681]

This is how it looks like:


http://94.23.42.229/pics/23b7e371173b.gif

No actully it doesnt look like this. In reality it looks even worse!

[KiwiVenge]

roflmao at that clip Utops!!

[oscar19681]

I guess ill just give up and try again tomorrow and hope that it is fixed by then. If the pirate version workes without internet connection then DRM must be the most counter-procutive copy protection ever known to mankind. I mean i can just see people returning the game and getting hold of a pirate version. LOL!

[Charlie901]

Same Here...... :damn::damn:

[Subwolf]

I'm back in, but the launcher couldn't download saved games. At least I can play, wonder for how long..

[Duli]

It almost sounds like a bad joke doesnt it?

It does indeed.

[Gammelpreusse]

Yeah, now here, too. This afternoon was fine but now, 20:25, it's a no go.

[subsimlee]

Same here ( Halifax, Canada )

GAME GOES BACK TO GAME STOP TOMORROW !!!!

Maybe some negative feedback from the distributors will get Ubi's attention (doubt it) Will buy it back when DRM is gone for good...:down:

[fufubar]

Same here (incorrect user/pass). Maybe a DDOS attack again (that is: if they weren´t lying last weekend). Which is hardly an excuse since it is ubi´s responsibility to protect there servers against things like that.

BTW: the pirated version doesn´t really work: those guys have to alt+tab out of the game and edit their savegames after every mission to make the game believe they actually completed it.
So the question is what is more annoying: doing this or not being able to play because of DRM. Certenly it is much more unjust when we who bought it are not able to play :x

[oscar19681]

Same here ( Halifax, Canada )

GAME GOES BACK TO GAME STOP TOMORROW !!!!

Maybe some negative feedback from the distributors will get Ubi's attention (doubt it) Will buy it back when DRM is gone for good...:down:

Why not bring it back and get a pirate version, problem solved! LOL . No seriously at looks at the most best solution the way thinks look now!

[oscar19681]

Same here (incorrect user/pass). Maybe a DDOS attack again (that is: if they weren´t lying last weekend). Which is hardly an excuse since it is ubi´s responsibility to protect there servers against things like that.

BTW: the pirated version doesn´t really work: those guys have to alt+tab out of the game and edit their savegames after every mission to make the game believe they actually completed it.
So the question is what is more annoying: doing this or not being able to play because of DRM. Certenly it is much more unjust when we who bought it are not able to play :x

I,m sure people dont mind editing there save games after every mission if it means being able to play whenever they like!

[rugby6]

Down here in Columbus, Georgia too. It worked fine all day yesterday. What a friggin' joke.

[Nanotick]

This really really sucks. It's bullcrap i can't play MY game that I bought with MY money. I want compensation for this.

[Hyfrydle]

Problems for me as well tonight even when I manage to get into the game the save won't load. This is getting worse as time passes. What makes it worse I played all day yesterday and I' really getting into the game.

[jaxa]

What idiot created this anti-piracy system? I can't play whenever I want because Ubisoft server is down :damn:

[KL-alfman]

another sad day for the SH-series ..... :cry:

shame on you, UBI! :down:

[oban]

Why not bring it back and get a pirate version, problem solved! LOL . No seriously at looks at the most best solution the way thinks look now!

netherlands down, btw the pirate version doesnt work. Dunno how many times ppl are telling us "get the cracked version".

You cant play the campaign, the internet is full of that info.

So, i hope the servers are busy and back online soon....(maybe with some freaking patch lol)

[jwilliams]

Look here www.ubi.com (http://www.ubi.com)

So let's stay calm for a while a see what happens, maybe they're actually trying to fix the problems once and for all, as we speak...there's still hope ;)

LOL

This website is currently undergoing maintenance.
It will be available again shortly.


How dumb can Ubi be? Maintenance on a weekend, seriously?
When most people play. :nope:

[fufubar]

I,m sure people dont mind editing there save games after every mission if it means being able to play whenever they like!

You´re probably right. Personaly I think this is not even cracking it is more like cheating (you can end your mission whenever you want) and it breaks atmosphere. and atmosphere was the main reason I bought the game...
Come to think of it atmmosphere was the second reason, the first was to actually play the game, but I considerred that mandatory... obviously I was wrong.

[Londo]

Well I'm new to sub sims. My first was Wolves of the Pacific. I bought this game despite reservations about the copy protection and have been unable to run it like the rest of you.. For awhile I thought it was just me. At least I'm in good comany.

[oscar19681]

What idiot created this anti-piracy system? I can't play whenever I want because Ubisoft server is down :damn:

I really dont mind anti piracy software and i actully support to an extent. But what we have here ladies and gentlemen is not Anti piracy software , but anti legal software.

[SloppyMk27]

looks like everyone's down......:nope:

This farce should convince ubi to bin the DRM and let us play what we paid for.......

I agree. I paid for my copy and Can't play it when their DRM server is messed up or you get the incorrect password bullcrap?!:06: Unbeliveable! Time to find that DRM crack that the hackers/piraters came out with and apply it to my legitamite game. :down: I'm not a supporter of piracy but, it's nice when it's there when we need it for problems like these.

[Dutch]

Good God two weekends in a row.

Ok I know last weekend I kind of rubbed it in for you guys in all, but even now I feel your pain.

Good God almighty it looks like the best thing I have ever done is not purchase SH5. All of this is making ETW look like the greatest thing since sliced bread.

From a Nay-Sayer, I truly have sympathy for you guys now. Maybe a patch out will be ready by the end of the month?

[KiwiVenge]

Wonder how accurate the 'only affecting 5%' really was and is?

[Romulus]

I'm currently in Basra, and on a Kuwaiti server, ain't working here either Gents!! :damn:

[himlaviz]

I am effected as well, just had to try.
:cry:

[fufubar]

Wonder how accurate the 'only affecting 5%' really was and is?

They never said 5% of what. Maybe they meant 5% of all computers in the internet are not able to play. It is just an unfortunate coincidence that all actual customers are within these 5%. :woot::O::wah:

[Sean142]

It doesn't work anywhere, so it seems. "Under maintenance" is a 'nice' way of saying that "our servers can't handle that much traffic".

I've been trying for the last 40 minuts or so. :damn:

[rededge]

Uk- No joy here either....

Damn, was hoping to try some new mods too.

Still, gived us all more time to spend on Subsim!

Hello Neal, we're all on here tonight! :up:

[steve_m]

Belgium, still no-go at 9 PM local.

[Ducimus]

The thought just hit me that being down one day on the weekend could become the norm, until Ubi better protects their servers, upgrades their servers to better handle the load, or the DRM is removed. Whchever comes first. *shrug*

[Phoenix3000]

I just tried logging into Ubi's forum to post a message about the servers being down - again. It took forever to load the login screen, and when I was finally able to enter my credentials it said "You alre already logged into the Ubi servers" or words to that effect. WTF? :damn: I haven't tried logging into their website for months, so I can only assume it was my u/n and p/w used with the SH5 launcher app. (?)

I then couldn't post as the message box never loaded! Unbelievably bad service all round! :down:

Come on Ubi, sort this out!

[NefariousKoel]

Ubisoft's contantly online system is giving DRM a bad name.

DRM already had a bad name.

This is just showing those who didn't realize it the truth.

[Nordmann]

While I feel sorry for those unable to play (though you were warned), I have to admit, I cannot stop laughing at Ubi. They implement a system which they are unable to support, then blame the pirates/hackers (big surprise). Talk about incompetence!

I doubt this is going to be resolved any time soon, that is unless they remove the OSP, which given their arrogance, is probably unlikely.

[pythos]

Servers back up at 20:00 UTC, 03-14.

[steve_m]

Servers back up at 20:00 UTC, 03-14.

Here they're not.

[RickC Sniper]

Cannot log in here.

2:15p.m. USA Mountain time.

[robbo180265]

Servers back up at 20:00 UTC, 03-14.

Still down for me:down:

[Gilbou]

People DOS the Ubisoft DRM servers are not pirates.

They are freedom fighters.

Resistance.

They are doing what is right. Fighting.

Those on the other side will call them terrorists, pirates, whatever.

Resistanza !

[oscar19681]

Wonder how accurate the 'only affecting 5%' really was and is?

I think they meant 5% was UNaffected.

[keith_uk]

Sick of this crap now. I was in a good mood when i switched my computer on to play the game, after working hard all day. Now i'm sat here p!$$£d off!

UBI YOU DUMB IDIOTS!

Keith.

[Turm]

Well, my game dropped out a short time ago with a CTD, and now I get the bad username/password nonsense.

So I come here to check it's not just me (I thought it may be an open log-in session that needed to time-out on the server), but no, I see problems all round again.

It seems the only time I get a CTD is when the server collapses, which makes it even more annoying! It should pause and save, as is supposed to happen if the connection drops. Instead, it just dies and I lose all progress since the last autosave. :nope: I'd literally just hit a ship with my last torpedo as well :damn:

Anyway, I dropped out with the CTD at 20:00 GMT (my torpedo hit at 19:59 because I made a screenshot, lol), but have been playing all evening up until that point.

I could even cope with the periods of not being able to play due to DoS attacks and other outages that are hard to 'plan for', but at least make the autosave system work properly!!!! :doh:

EDIT: Managed to get back in at 20:20 (though savegames could not synchronise), but I decided to quit instead of carrying on playing for now.

[Deimos01]

WTF:nope: Bugs? I can live with till they get fixed
Shoddy game mechanics? Only a matter of time before our exellent modders fix that.
DRM not letting me play on the only day Ive had free in 2 weeks? DEAL BREAKER!!

WTF was UBI thinking. After SH4 this just adds insult to injury. They are apparently just trying to kill this genre. Methinks this is the last UBI game I buy if they are going to insist on putting out half finished, buggy games that cant be played because thier damn servers are down. :nope:

[fufubar]

Hey I am back "on-line". Lets see for how long.

Germany (GMT+1) 21:25

[pythos]

Deimos01 if Ubisoft is trying to kill anything, it is themselves. Did you not see that Assains creed is also going through this nonsense? That is a console game, a heavy hitter when it comes to profit for UBI.

Ubi got sold a load of goods with this scheme. Pure and simple.

[oscar19681]

Hey I am back "on-line". Lets see for how long.


Germany (GMT+1) 21:25


How come i cant go "on-line" while i,m in the Netherlands then?

[Mud]

Yep, server is back online


Mud

[oscar19681]

Yep, server is back online


Mud

What do you mean server is back on-line . Still the same here.

[jwilliams]

What do you mean server is back on-line . Still the same here.

Ubisoft will have more than one server. they will have a few dotted around the globe.
That is why some can play while others cant. Ubi are surposed to re-route those not able to connect to servers that are up.

[SabreHawk]

Look here www.ubi.com (http://www.ubi.com)

So let's stay calm for a while a see what happens, maybe they're actually trying to fix the problems once and for all, as we speak...there's still hope ;)

Exactly, right after I posted several pages ago before I called TS, I tried one more time just to make sure. Got the incorrect username/password thing once, then clicked OK and got the bigger window about registering, showing that im already set to log in. Cliked the big blue round arrow button to try again and then it launched the game just fine and I been running it for the last hour.
And in the time I've been playing, there are now what, 4- 5 more pages of posts here now.
And, I was only unable to log in and play for a total of 30 minutes. So thats 30min. unability to play for the entire week.;)

[Deimos01]

Deimos01 if Ubisoft is trying to kill anything, it is themselves. Did you not see that Assains creed is also going through this nonsense? That is a console game, a heavy hitter when it comes to profit for UBI.

Ubi got sold a load of goods with this scheme. Pure and simple.

Which is why I didnt and wont be buying AC2. The best game in the world is rubbish if you cant play it. :nope: Im just frustrated that I havent had a chance to play since I bought the game till today and the GD servers wont let me in! :damn:

[PortoFerro]

9:32 CET (Austria) can play again.

I guess they have to upgrade their systems to run under several IPs, wouldn't that make it less vulnerable?

[Mud]

What do you mean server is back on-line . Still the same here.

Well I´m playing SHV atm, was able to log in 10 mins ago.


Mud

[Chaoic16]

This is how it looks like:


http://94.23.42.229/pics/23b7e371173b.gif

:haha::har::wah::haha::har::timeout:

OH my gawl, I have not had a good hard laugh for a long time... I am so saving this because this had to be one of most funny .gif I ever seen.


Chaoic out...

[Armistead]

Don't ya'll know the 7th day is a day of rest. Ubi worked hard on this game, so they'll take a rest every Sunday....

Or it could be your connections are poor.:har:

[baffa]

Just managed to log in but I keep getting that internet connection problem screen and after a while I get booted.. So.. guess I'll just go to bed.

[SabreHawk]

Ya know what I think is really needed is some sort of server status page, or some other kind of feature so that when these failures happen one can determine if in fact the server is down or experiencing problems.
Cause having a incorrect username/password message isnt saying much and obviously none of us were using the wrong name or password. So that message was clearly what was "incorrect".
I have mine setup to remember me so I dont have to manually input this info each time just as I do anywhere such as these and any other forum I visit.

Something like a special server status site, or build it into the game itself so that if the server is in fact down, you'll get a message stating such. Not what we got this time around which wasn't the case at all apparently.

[CaptainHaplo]

Ok.... so this looks like its going to be a regular occurance...... who woulda thunk that?

I guess I could just keep checking this forum every weekend and see when these threads don't get started - that will tell me when UBI has got rid of the DRM so I can go buy the game....

[SabreHawk]

And one other thing, this like so many other reports of this sort of thing may not be UBI's servers at all. There's always the internet itself, and all the many many networks that all this info has to go through.

But then I suppose that is one more reason the DRM system is a bad thing in the end. It's dependent on someting that history has proven is sometimes quite unreliable, and full of complication and glitches.

Ok nuff said, im going back out to sea, where there seems to be less war going on, and it's much more peaceful and quiet.:D

[KiwiVenge]

Ya know what I think is really needed is some sort of server status page, or some other kind of feature so that when these failures happen one can determine if in fact the server is down or experiencing problems.
Cause having a incorrect username/password message isnt saying much and obviously none of us were using the wrong name or password. So that message was clearly what was "incorrect".
I have mine setup to remember me so I dont have to manually input this info each time just as I do anywhere such as these and any other forum I visit.

Something like a special server status site, or build it into the game itself so that if the server is in fact down, you'll get a message stating such. Not what we got this time around which wasn't the case at all apparently.

I have seen this suggested a few times between here and the UBI SH5 forums and it is a wonderful idea.

However I bet arming the consumer with this sort of info could be a bad thing from their perspective if the outage is a high %. As it is now people are not sure if it is happening to the quoted 5% or is it more then that. If they had reporting server status it is possible people would be even more upset with the numbers.

I mean if through the weekend lets say 75% of registered buyers could not log on due to authentication servers not being able to accept their log in attempt people would have hard info with which to complain and/or take action (return game etc).
Right now people can get some little comfort in hoping it is not a widespread problem and that hopefully it will be easily remedied.

However, if the quoted 5% is accurate then they UBI should get running server status reports out ASAP as I feel it would be better for their reputation for people to have hard info that the outages are just a speed bump and should be easy to remedy.

[Subwolf]

I was back in after some 30 minutes too, now everything is fine. Ubisoft said the servers are monitored 24/7, and I believe when this happens they are actually working on them. Hopefully for the better.

But I heard the servers are located in France, and that's not exactly a good thing for you guys in the US. You always end up last in line ;)

[The Enigma]

I've a confession to make: :oops:

It was me.
I wanted to check if the UBI server was on line, so I did send one ping
to their server.

Immediately after doing so, messages like this one showed up at ubi's forum and here at subsim.

I wasn't aware that I was causing a problem for that server.
I wont do it ever again, I swear.


Peace my friends. :O: :rock:

[SabreHawk]

I've a confession to make: :oops:

It was me.
I wanted to check if the UBI server was on line, so I did send one ping
to their server.

Immediately after doing so, messages like this one showed up at ubi's forum and here at subsim.

I wasn't aware that I was causing a problem for that server.
I wont do it ever again, I swear.


Peace my friends. :O: :rock:

:har: Thanks we need that round here.;)

Well yep, it does seem to be that when it comes to customers that no matter what ya do, they'll find some way to be unhappy with ya.
Just ask any waitress.:yep:


Hmmmm, actually I think I may know what it was now. Someone was busy trying to set the server's clock forward an hour, or they forgot to do it at all. Heck I forgot to that myself today.

[Fincuan]

Hmmmm, actually I think I may know what it was now. Someone was busy trying to set the server's clock forward an hour, or they forgot to do it at all. Heck I forgot to that myself today.

I sure hope they didn't forget anything and intentionally left the clocks untouched. In EU, also known the home of the mighty Ubisoft and their servers, we are still almost two weeks away from the shift. :D

[SSN*593]

I find I have no problems what so ever with the servers because I don't bother playing the stupid thing. Nothing will ever get done or fixed in the future because the whole world loves CONSOLE GAMING, and guess what, that's NOT us so we are screwed.

[schurem]

QQ more dude. Actually i would LOVE it if Ubi managed to port SH5 to the xbox 360. Especially if they manage to keep the pacing and reallism options it currently has. Not all console gamers are dumb kids on ritalin. Silent Hunter would lend itself perfectly to zoning out on the couch. There would be some UI issues though, without a mouse to work with. Maybe once natal hits? we just point at what we want?

[gmccabe01]

Yup guess what "Invalid username and password"

I'm in Ireland and done a speed test with a server in France
(not ubi)
Got the following
http://www.speedtest.net/result/748787621.png
so INP ok
I wonder if the problem is at Ubi's side! hmm!

[KiwiVenge]

Foul language in text, but funny imo :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkLCAHk_qW4&NR=1

[Iliaz]

Foul language in text, but funny imo :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkLCAHk_qW4&NR=1

Epic!:yeah:

[mikeydredd]

Just a quick reply to Mr Channing.

I too am an adult who came to an informed decision about this game.

Apparently you expected it not to work - and bought it.

I expected it not to work - and didn't buy it.

:o

[Skiiwa]

Just a quick reply to Mr Channing.

I too am an adult who came to an informed decision about this game.

Apparently you expected it not to work - and bought it.

I expected it not to work - and didn't buy it.

:o


Said Perfectly!!!

[U-Bones]

But that is the whole point why folks get so upset. A single player offline game...?

That is where many miss the bus. SH5 is NOT sold as such. This is not your grandpa's Silent Hunter.

I don't like it either, but they can sell whatever they want. As long as consumers buy it, they can even make a profit.

I chose to accept the risk and not tilt the windmill, but I respect other peoples stand on the principal, as long as it is truly principled. I do not respect indignant claims of being swindled when they are coupled with the inability to read clearly labeled products before buying however.

Clearly, Ubi did a poor job of mitigating the risk inherent in their model, on top of pissing folks off with the whole concept, but they certainly did not mislabel the product.

[PortoFerro]

There are so many people pointing out that they didn't buy the game because of the DRM and that is fine.
However, there are players like me who didn't play SH in a long time or were just too curious about this new version - and bought it.

So far I'm very pleased with it and there is no way back (for me) to SH3.
The servers sucked last weekend and to a far lesser extent this sunday.
So we bitch about it, but still play most of the time without issues. Sooner or later the problems with the game and the DRM will be sorted out, I'm sure about that.
Which does not mean that the principles of this DRM system are flawed and will not survive in the long run. (No, I don't like it and will cheer with the crowd as soon as UBI comes up with something less retarded...)

[CaptainHaplo]

U-bones - actually I would argue that Ubi DID mislabel it.

I have seen the box - it said that a constant internet connection was required. If so - that was demonstratably untrue - because it is not a constant connection to the internet - but a constant connection THROUGH the internet to a Ubisoft validation server (or whatever they call it). Thus, the box should make clear that the game relies not only on your internet connection - but also their ability to make available their game service to you, the consumer.

I don't know about the EULA - my friend had already installed it and I wasn't that interested in seeing the license agreement, but I really wonder if it goes into detail (as it legally should) about how you playing gives Ubisoft the right to archive and use any data your use of the service may provide - like how often you play, how long you play, when you normally play (time of day), what games you play when using their service, etc. That really is the main reason behind this DRM - to provide easy and relatively free marketing data for Ubisoft. After all - what better way to find out where to put money into the next project than find out what people want to play the most of, right?

I detest piracy, and so some blame for this must go to the pirates IF this flop is due to attacks. Some must go to those who are unhappy with their purchase - because many people saw this coming. But the majority of blame must go to Ubisoft - because they chose to use OSP. The choice itself is not at fault (though it was a horrible choice) - but moving to a "service" platform without putting into place adequate infrastructure is their fault.

On top of it - they had this problem last weekend - and whether it be pirates - or a simple overload of the existing infrastructure - doesn't matter - because they failed to fix it since last weekend, as proven by those who posted with problems.

Ultimately - one could likely get past weekend #1 as an anomaly that Ubi got caught with its pants down. But to have a repeat of the problem again a week later demonstrates Ubisoft still have failed to adequately address the problem. How long will all of you accept this level of "service" from Ubisoft?

[U-Bones]

U-bones - actually I would argue that Ubi DID mislabel it.

I have seen the box - it said that a constant internet connection was required. If so - that was demonstratably untrue - because it is not a constant connection to the internet - but a constant connection THROUGH the internet to a Ubisoft validation server (or whatever they call it). Thus, the box should make clear that the game relies not only on your internet connection - but also their ability to make available their game service to you, the consumer.

...

Ultimately - one could likely get past weekend #1 as an anomaly that Ubi got caught with its pants down. But to have a repeat of the problem again a week later demonstrates Ubisoft still have failed to adequately address the problem. How long will all of you accept this level of "service" from Ubisoft?

You should think about it some more...

I have the box. For the most part, those who failed to equate the "permanant internet connection" on the box with a DRM required connection to Ubi are being as disingenuous as William J. waffling on the meaning of "is".

Like I said, clearly Ubi did not think it out, and I believe they deserve their lumps, just not some of the ones I see being served up here lately. The game was NOT sold as a single player offline game. It is labeled appropriately, but I am sure it will be reworded in future releases for the Williiam J's of the world.

"A permanant conncection to the Internet is required to play the game." OMG, no disclaimer about the million other things that have to happen on teh interwebs ?? lulz

One of which is Ubi being available, which they have performed miserably at. Freaking obvious on both counts.

Complaints about poor service are legit, those calling the product a swindle label themselves as someone who needs to pay closer attention or who is being less than fair or honest.

[molotof]

This is a commercial suicide, i didn't be aware for the DRM when i bought SH5 and if i was ... but i love this game. For AC2, if it was DRM free i would buy it but now it's clear, nonsense, ubi is testing us, don't let them make this crap be normal :arrgh!:

[John Channing]

Just a quick reply to Mr Channing.

I too am an adult who came to an informed decision about this game.

Apparently you expected it not to work - and bought it.

I expected it not to work - and didn't buy it.

:o

Your assumption is, of course, wrong.

I expected it to work... AND IT DOES!:woot:

JCC

[RSColonel_131st]

I don't like it either, but they can sell whatever they want.

Is that really so? Do big multi-national companies have the right to sell products in a way that inhibits basic customer rights (like resale of goods)?

We know that this is a very grey legal area here, the EULA counts for nought. By the time you see it, Retailers will not accept returns of the software, which is the whole point of the EULA.

The main problem is that EU law, unlike US Law, is not well tailored to class-action type lawsuits. Because I firmly believe UBI would lose and at least have to permit resale of OSP games if they were challenged in court.

But that's all besides the question anway. The question really is: Do we want to let them get away with "selling whatever they want" or do we show them some border of acceptable behaviour by voting with our wallets?

[Iridium]

Your assumption is, of course, wrong.

I expected it to Work©... AND IT DOES!**:woot:

JCC

** The term Work© is copyrighted by Ubisoft Entertainment S.A. ("Ubisoft”). Work© is a revolutionary new technology closely integrated with the Uplay© service. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit, or experience in any way any material from this system including code and software expected to Work© without express permission from Ubisoft. Functionality is defined as "being available more than 5 minutes per day" and is not guaranteed by your purchase of any products expected to Work©. Furthermore you acknowledge that you are a "chump", and that your product may not even Work© when Ubisoft's servers are able to handle the load. Ubisoft retains the right to terminate your access to any products expected to Work©, including in cases of misprinted materials, inept server or network technicians employed at Ubisoft, inadequate hardware resources to meet demand on behalf of Ubisoft (a circumstance that shall be blamed on anonymous "hackers"), or when we release the next version of the product and choose to force consumers to upgrade. By opening the box and/or reading this message you acknowledge that you have no right, guarantee, privilege, or need to have your newly purchased product Work©. A sense of nausea is normal after realizing you paid $50 or more for a product that may or may not Work©.

Ubisoft thanks you for your support and recommends you purchase both the upcoming downloadable content and the not-yet-announced expansion. Trust us. They'll totally Work©.

[Commie]

** The term Work© is copyrighted by Ubisoft Entertainment S.A. ("Ubisoft”). Work© is a revolutionary new technology closely integrated with the Uplay© service. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit, or experience in any way any material from this system including code and software expected to Work© without express permission from Ubisoft. Functionality is defined as "being available more than 5 minutes per day" and is not guaranteed by your purchase of any products expected to Work©. Furthermore you acknowledge that you are a "chump", and that your product may not even Work© when Ubisoft's servers are able to handle the load. Ubisoft retains the right to terminate your access to any products expected to Work©, including in cases of misprinted materials, inept server or network technicians employed at Ubisoft, inadequate hardware resources to meet demand on behalf of Ubisoft (a circumstance that shall be blamed on anonymous "hackers"), or when we release the next version of the product and choose to force consumers to upgrade. By opening the box and/or reading this message you acknowledge that you have no right, guarantee, privilege, or need to have your newly purchased product Work©. A sense of nausea is normal after realizing you paid $50 or more for a product that may or may not Work©.

Ubisoft thanks you for your support and recommends you purchase both the upcoming downloadable content and the not-yet-announced expansion. Trust us. They'll totally Work©.

Hilarious!:yeah:

[ironkross]

The box says : " A permanent internet connection is required to play the game."
It says nothing about U's servers being online also. If you pay for the game and establish a connection to the internet and can't play, it is simply a breach of trust on U's part.

[SabreHawk]

All this still doesn't mean that a lost packet of info cant cause a problem. And that can happen. And could be your networks issue, or any number of networks that the info must passthrough between you and UBI's.
And a host of other things such as routers, firewalls, virus scanners, ect. ect. ect.
Remember that it all travels through many channels, and can go clear around the globe and back again and any number of other pathways.
Sometimes I wonder how any of it works at all.

Thats the internet.

[NefariousKoel]

** The term Work© is copyrighted by Ubisoft Entertainment S.A. ("Ubisoft”). Work© is a revolutionary new technology closely integrated with the Uplay© service. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit, or experience in any way any material from this system including code and software expected to Work© without express permission from Ubisoft. Functionality is defined as "being available more than 5 minutes per day" and is not guaranteed by your purchase of any products expected to Work©. Furthermore you acknowledge that you are a "chump", and that your product may not even Work© when Ubisoft's servers are able to handle the load. Ubisoft retains the right to terminate your access to any products expected to Work©, including in cases of misprinted materials, inept server or network technicians employed at Ubisoft, inadequate hardware resources to meet demand on behalf of Ubisoft (a circumstance that shall be blamed on anonymous "hackers"), or when we release the next version of the product and choose to force consumers to upgrade. By opening the box and/or reading this message you acknowledge that you have no right, guarantee, privilege, or need to have your newly purchased product Work©. A sense of nausea is normal after realizing you paid $50 or more for a product that may or may not Work©.

Ubisoft thanks you for your support and recommends you purchase both the upcoming downloadable content and the not-yet-announced expansion. Trust us. They'll totally Work©.

:haha:
:rock:

[RSColonel_131st]

All this still doesn't mean that a lost packet of info cant cause a problem. And that can happen. And could be your networks issue, or any number of networks that the info must passthrough between you and UBI's.
And a host of other things such as routers, firewalls, virus scanners, ect. ect. ect.
Remember that it all travels through many channels, and can go clear around the globe and back again and any number of other pathways.
Sometimes I wonder how any of it works at all.

Thats the internet.

Exactly! And that's why you don't build a "service" for which you charge someone money on something as unreliable as the internet connection from two points anywhere on the globe.

[Iridium]

Anyone else ever play Chromehounds on the 360? Man that was an awesome game. It's too bad the singleplayer was crippled compared to multiplayer. And it's too bad Capcom shut down the servers so we can't play online anymore.

Anyone else ever play NBA2009, or MLB2009, or Madden 2009? Man they were fun to play online. It's too bad the multiplayer got shut down since they were locked to EA's master servers and they decided after one year to deactivate them so we can't play online anymore. I guess we're forced to upgrade to the 2010 editions.

Anyone else ever play Battlefield: Bad Company 2? Man that's an awesome game. It's too bad the singleplayer is crippled compared to multiplayer. And it's too bad EA doesn't allow people to run their own dedicated servers anymore so that if EA shuts down the master servers, we'll all be forced to upgrade if we want the full experience.

Anyone else ever play SH5? Man that's an awesome game....

[Iron Budokan]

"It is labeled appropriately, but I am sure it will be reworded in future releases for the Williiam J's of the world."

Or revisionist lemmings of Der Pretzeldent who believed all the WMD drool they were spoon fed for eight years.

[mikeydredd]

Iridium - that was truly inspired!

Mr Channing - you and I obviously have different ideas about how a brand new product, that you have just bought, should "work".

By the way I am an expert on the differing interpretations of the term "work". I ride an 18 year old FXDC!!!!

Do you consider SH5 to be value for (your) money?

Do you find the level of service UbiSoft are providing in support of this product acceptable and reasonable?

You write "And I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I did my bit to keep the genre alive."

And I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I did my bit to help kill off this level of unacceptable DRM.

Ultimately let us both hope we are both successful.

:)

[John Channing]

Do you consider SH5 to be value for (your) money?



Yup. I have spent a lot more than that on things and got a lot less enjoyment out of them.


Do you find the level of service UbiSoft are providing in support of this product acceptable and reasonable?



Seeing as it is less than 2 weeks old and there is already 1 patch out I gotta say yup... so far. See, I realized long ago that I am not actually the center of the univers, so if things don't happen on my timetable sometimes that's the way it goes. (Countdown until someone calls me a "fanboy" again in three... two... one...)


And I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I did my bit to help kill off this level of unacceptable DRM.



Good! Great! I have no problem with that. I didn't say it as a challenge to anyone, it's just how I feel.

Having said all that, what I don't find it necessary is to call anyone who disagrees with me names, or start countless threads about how dissapointed "I" am in whatever, nor do I feel the need to post smug comments about how much I am enjoying the game (none of this directed at you specifically) and how anyone who is boycotting the product for whatever reason is a <inset favorite insult here>.

See how mutual respect works?

JCC

[Bilge_Rat]

Is that really so? Do big multi-national companies have the right to sell products in a way that inhibits basic customer rights (like resale of goods)?

We know that this is a very grey legal area here, the EULA counts for nought. By the time you see it, Retailers will not accept returns of the software, which is the whole point of the EULA.

The main problem is that EU law, unlike US Law, is not well tailored to class-action type lawsuits. Because I firmly believe UBI would lose and at least have to permit resale of OSP games if they were challenged in court.

But that's all besides the question anway. The question really is: Do we want to let them get away with "selling whatever they want" or do we show them some border of acceptable behaviour by voting with our wallets?

Of course they do, you do not own software, you are granted a limited license to use software which belongs to Ubisoft. They can subject the license to any restrictions they which. You agree to those restrictions when you agree to the EULA prior to installation. Your only right as a consumer is to say you will not buy the game under those conditions.

[Bilge_Rat]

Mr Channing - you and I obviously have different ideas about how a brand new product, that you have just bought, should "work".

been playing for 16 days now, never had an issue logging on and playing, even on very dodgy wireless internet connections.



Do you consider SH5 to be value for (your) money?



absolutely. I spent more than the price of the game for supper last night.

Considering the amount of enjoyment I am getting from this game, it's an absolute bargain. :rock:

[emtguf]

Seems the server is down again. Trying to work on a new mod, and cannot test it cause I can't launch the game.....
About to go looking on the internet for a "Fix"
Only have so long at lunch to work on things, and the DRM is screwing me yet again.

[Arclight]

Only had issue when they got bombed at AC2 release.

Untill now... can't login, get the 'connection required' nonsense as the launcher is loading. :-?

[Iridium]

It's not down, it's Work©ing!

[subsimlee]

Yep, server is down again! I just came back from gettin a refund from GameStop/E.B. They tell me mine is about the 4th SH5 returned in a week. Multiply that by all the GameStop/E.B. retail outlets and it is becoming significant numbers. They also told me Assasins Creed for X360 boxes was down for days and the WEB is aflame over that. GameStop has expressed their anger to UBI via E-Mail but figure this DRM crap is just a step towards cutting retail out of the loop.I'll buy back when UBI drops it if ever...


EDIT: Yeah, it came back-----shakey though..

[Arclight]

Yes and no, bit flaky at the moment. Sometimes refuses, occasionally fails to sync but you should get in with a few retries.

I'm logging in every 5 minutes to test a mod, not very nice. :doh:

[Silanda]

They can subject the license to any restrictions they which. You agree to those restrictions when you agree to the EULA prior to installation.

No they can't, having a EULA doesn't exempt them from the obeying the law. As RSColonel_131st said, they are even more legally suspect due to the fact that the software has to be purchased, and packaging opened, before the customer even has a chance to read the EULA. Can a contract be binding when the customer has no chance to view the contract until after it is formed (i.e. the point of sale)?

IANAL but I'm not aware of this being tested in a European court, does anyone else know of any cases?

[Iridium]

IANAL but I'm not aware of this being tested in a European court, does anyone else know of any cases?

It's been tested in a few courts (US tends to get the most attention) but it always varies wildly based on the case.

In some of the cases the argument is that you can see the EULA before you actually install anything (ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD_v._Zeidenberg)), especially if the box states that there's a EULA to agree to before you install it. Another (Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-Saver_Data_Systems,_Inc._v._Wyse_Technology)) was over a company claiming on the outside of the box that their software worked with MS-DOS but that they couldn't be held liable for anything if someone actually opened the box. When it turned out it didn't work with MS-DOS after all they got sued, and it was ruled that that EULA was unenforceable. That's a gross oversimplification of both cases, mind you.

I haven't looked at Ubisoft's EULA for SH5. It wouldn't surprise me to see a clause in there stating that they can't be held liable if their servers are inaccessible. Don't know if that would stand up in court, either.

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of cases around this sort of thing, and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of different answers about it. The best thing to do, if you really want to spend the time and money to find out, is contact a copyright attorney.

edit- looking at the EULA now, which has a few funny clauses. Technically speaking you may not A) install the game (as this makes copies of the multimedia work from the CD to your hard drive), B) "To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work", which sounds like no modding, and C) " To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios" which would also cover modding including, possibly, stuff like Trigger Maru, RFB, Monsun, etc.

Furthermore, the user must acknowledge that A) Ubisoft can collect personal data (they don't say what exactly except for that its allegedly in line with their privacy policy), B) that Ubisoft is not responsible for "damages" resulting from the "inability to use the product" which I totally called in my paragraphs above, and that C) the only warranty for the game provided is 90 days for the physical disk, with no warranty whatsoever on the ability to connect to the servers.

So there you go. All you modders, shame on you.

[jwilliams]

No they can't, having a EULA doesn't exempt them from the obeying the law. As RSColonel_131st said, they are even more legally suspect due to the fact that the software has to be purchased, and packaging opened, before the customer even has a chance to read the EULA. Can a contract be binding when the customer has no chance to view the contract until after it is formed (i.e. the point of sale)?

IANAL but I'm not aware of this being tested in a European court, does anyone else know of any cases?

The contract isnt binding until you click agree. you have to click agree before you install. if you dont agree, then you can return the product to Ubisoft for a full refund. This means that you cant install the product as, as soon as you install then you've already agreed.

Ubisoft guarantees to the original buyer of the Multimedia Product that the compact disc (CD) supplied with this Multimedia Product shall not show any fault during a normal-use period of ninety (90) days from the invoiced date of purchase, or any other longer warranty time period provided by applicable legislation4- Termination of the Licence

The Licence is effective from the first time the Multimedia Product is used.
It is terminated automatically by Ubisoft without notice if the User fails to adhere to the terms and conditions of the Licence.
If you cant connect to their servers. tough luck cus they stated that:-

7- Liability

In no event can Ubisoft be held liable for any direct, consequential, accidental, special, ancillary or other damages arising out of the following: (1) the use or inability to use the Multimedia Product, (2) inadequate performance or poor functioning of the Multimedia Product; (3) the loss of any data or information, including but not limited to the loss of any saved games or data associated with the Multimedia Product saved on Ubisoft’s servers; and (4) the loss of any profit or business as a result of owning or using the Multimedia Product, even if Ubisoft has been advised of the possibility of such damages.
In particular, Ubisoft accepts no liability regarding use of the Multimedia Product contrary to the precautions for use set out in the manual and on the packaging.
As some legislations do not allow exemption from liability in the event of direct or incidental damages, it is possible that the aforementioned exclusion does not apply to the User.
This Licence to use the Multimedia Product grants specific rights to the User and he may have other rights depending on the laws in his country or state.
But i did notice that in the EULA they said that should they turn off the servers, they WILL release a patch to allow offline play. WOOT !

You understand and agree that this Multimedia Product requires an online connection at all times and the Multimedia Product must be played through the Internet services provided at ubi.com. In the event Ubisoft terminates or discontinues Internet services associated with this Multimedia Product, Ubisoft will provide a software update that will allow the User to utilize the Multimedia Product without connecting to Ubisoft's servers.

But of cause Local law takes presidence over this EULA.

[NefariousKoel]

Of course they do, you do not own software, you are granted a limited license to use software which belongs to Ubisoft. They can subject the license to any restrictions they which. You agree to those restrictions when you agree to the EULA prior to installation. Your only right as a consumer is to say you will not buy the game under those conditions.

EULAs have no legal backing. They are complete fabrications from whomever made them. Any Dick in a kerchief can write up a document demanding you turn your firstborn child over to them in the future. That doesn't make it legal.

They have no bearing on copyright laws, nor customer's rights. Anyone can write up a document but it holds no water until the legal system backs it.

And this DRM nonsense has no such backing. Quite the contrary.

[JScones]

Of course they do, you do not own software, you are granted a limited license to use software which belongs to Ubisoft. They can subject the license to any restrictions they which. You agree to those restrictions when you agree to the EULA prior to installation. Your only right as a consumer is to say you will not buy the game under those conditions.
Wrong! Publishers are not above state/federal law. Just ask Autodesk...

In Autodesk Case, Judge Rules Secondhand Sales OK
2 Oct 09

A Seattle judge ruled in favor of a man arguing that he has the right to sell secondhand software, in a case that had some people worried about an end to used-book and CD stores.

The suit was initially filed by Timothy Vernor after eBay, responding to requests by Autodesk, removed the Autocad software that Vernor was trying to sell on the auction site. EBay later banned Vernor from the site, based on Autodesk's complaints.

Vernor argued that since he was selling legitimate versions of the software -- not illegal copies -- he hadn't violated any laws.

Autodesk contends that it doesn't "sell" its software, but instead licenses it and therefore prohibits buyers from reselling it.

But no matter how Autodesk describes the agreement with customers, it is transferring ownership to end-users, the judge, from the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington, found. Autodesk had argued that its restrictions on the way that buyers can use the software show that users license rather than own the software.

"A person who buys a home is nonetheless restricted in his use and subsequent transfer of the home by property laws, zoning ordinances, and fair housing statutes," Judge Richard Jones wrote in his ruling. "No one would characterize the person's possession, however, as something other than ownership. Similarly, the court cannot characterize Autodesk's decision to let its licensees retain possession of the software forever as something other than a transfer of ownership, despite numerous restrictions on that ownership."

In previous arguments, both sides warned of dire consequences that could follow the judge's decision. But he said he thinks the impact will be minimal.

Autodesk argued that if the judge decided that people own its software, prices will rise for end-users. But that argument ignores the secondhand market, which offers better prices for consumers, the judge noted. "Although Autodesk would no doubt prefer that consumers' money reaches its pockets, that preference is not a basis for policy," Jones wrote.

Vernor has argued that if the judge ruled that the software was indeed licensed, then any copyright owner could impose severe restrictions on how their products are used. For instance, book publishers could bar resale and lending, eliminating the used-book market as well as libraries.

Even if he had ruled against Vernor, such fear was "misplaced," the judge said. "Although the interpretation of 'owner' in the Copyright Act no doubt has important consequences for software producers and consumers, the court is skeptical that its ruling today will have far-reaching consequences," he wrote.

The judge denied Vernor's charges against Autodesk of copyright misuse.

Autodesk did not immediately have comment on the ruling, which it can appeal.It's just that Tim had the balls to call their bluff (note this was the second hearing - Autodesk also lost the first). There's other similar examples in other juridictions across the world. I'm actually waiting for a challenge against Ubisoft to come from Germany...with emphasis on consumer rights, I'd suspect that Ubisoft would fight a losing battle there.

Anyway, as someone who writes EULAs, and having a lawyer that advises me on such things, I can assure you that they only exist to fool the gullible. When challenged, then unless the user has broken an underlying law (such as the Copyright Act), they don't hold up well at all.

[TarJak]

^:yep: As someone that writes negotiates and closes IT contracts including software development and purchases I have to agree. EULA conditions rarely stand up in court and are worth less than the light emited by the pixels used when viewing them.

[RSColonel_131st]

Of course they do, you do not own software, you are granted a limited license to use software which belongs to Ubisoft. They can subject the license to any restrictions they which. You agree to those restrictions when you agree to the EULA prior to installation. Your only right as a consumer is to say you will not buy the game under those conditions.

You are factually wrong.

The EULA is not legally binding in many EU countries. And it logically can't be - once you get to read it, you can't return the game anymore since the shops do not accept returns on opened software.

So no, they can not put any specific restrictions in the EULA, which you are only made aware of AFTER you bought the game and can't return it if you disagree.

If they have any specific restrictions to claim they need to be visible before opening the box. This is not the case.

So your standpoint is legally wrong.

[baffa]

You are factually wrong.

The EULA is not legally binding in many EU countries. And it logically can't be - once you get to read it, you can't return the game anymore since the shops do not accept returns on opened software.

So no, they can not put any specific restrictions in the EULA, which you are only made aware of AFTER you bought the game and can't return it if you disagree.

If they have any specific restrictions to claim they need to be visible before opening the box. This is not the case.

So your standpoint is legally wrong.

Indeed, where I live for a agreement to be valid both parties have to sign it, since I have no way of signing it (clicking an agree button does not equal signing, it must be at least my initials) hence making an eula invalid.
The only agreement you make is between you and the retailer and who are to follow your countrys laws and consumer rights.

[RSColonel_131st]

Here, it is not the detail of "signing", but actually the fact that normally the EULA says "If you do not agree, you can not install the product and must return it" but the retailer will not accept a returned product.

Microsoft for example has it so that they tell you on the outside of the package where to read the EULA, and only to open the package if you agree. That is legally correct.

[jwilliams]

EULAs have no legal backing. They are complete fabrications from whomever made them. Any Dick in a kerchief can write up a document demanding you turn your firstborn child over to them in the future. That doesn't make it legal.

They have no bearing on copyright laws, nor customer's rights. Anyone can write up a document but it holds no water until the legal system backs it.

And this DRM nonsense has no such backing. Quite the contrary.

DRM does have such a legal backing :-

Digital rights management systems have received some international legal backing by implementation of the 1996 WIPO Copyright Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_Treaty) (WCT). Article 11 of the Treaty requires nations party to the treaties to enact laws against DRM circumventionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

And EULA's have won a few legal cases. Here's one example (Davidson & Associates are the lawyers for BLIZZARD (world of warcraft)) :-

In a more recent case involving software EULAs and first-sale rights Davidson & Associates v. Internet Gateway Inc (2004) (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Davidson_%26_Associates_v._Interne t_Gateway_Inc_%282004%29&action=edit&redlink=1)[1] (http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/doc/2004/bnetd_30sep.pdf), the first sale reasoning of the Softman court was challenged, with the court ruling "The first sale doctrine is only triggered by an actual sale. Accordingly, a copyright owner does not forfeit his right of distribution by entering into a licensing agreement." However, the point was moot as the court found the plaintiff's EULA, which prohibited resale, was binding on the defendants because "The defendants .. expressly consented to the terms of the EULA and Terms of Use by clicking 'I Agree' and 'Agree.'"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

So as you can see, EULA's do have legal backing.

[Nordmann]

Great! I'm going to write up my own EULA, slap it on some dodgy, overpriced products, and as soon as someone buys said products, they have automatically agreed to my conditions of sale, where they have no rights and can't return the product for any reason.

I wonder how long I'll get away with it, before I'm dragged off to court, fined, and possibly imprisoned!

Ah, the hypocrisy of law. What's all well and good for the corporations, is highly illegal for the individual.

[jwilliams]

Great! I'm going to write up my own EULA, slap it on some dodgy, overpriced products, and as soon as someone buys said products, they have automatically agreed to my conditions of sale, where they have no rights and can't return the product for any reason.

I wonder how long I'll get away with it, before I'm dragged off to court, fined, and possibly imprisoned!

Ah, the hypocrisy of law. What's all well and good for the corporations, is highly illegal for the individual.

LOL:haha:

If your rich and can afford the best lawyers, you may just get away with it. :D

I think local law takes precedence over any EULA. :yep:

[SabreHawk]

Williams is right, and you can be sure that a company like UBI has lawyers working for them just like any company does and have had them go over the entire thing and assured them of the legalities.

I dislike this DRM thing as much as anyone, but rest assured no company would implement something like this without having it checked over by their lawyers before doing so. No buisness in it's right mind would do otherwise. Especially one thats in the software industry, where rights and leagalities abound.

I work in the housing industry, and our company doesnt do or say anything without consulting the companies lawyers. We can be in deep crap for anything given the way the fair housing act is written.

[Iridium]

Well at any rate, support copyright reform! Companies maintaining a right to revoke the license to use media you've paid for (through DRM or other means) with no obligation to provide a refund is freaking retarded.

[jwilliams]

Well at any rate, support copyright reform! Companies maintaining a right to revoke the license to use media you've paid for (through DRM or other means) with no obligation to provide a refund is freaking retarded.


You pay for a drivers licence. if you do something wrong, it's taken off you. You wont get a refund for what you paid for the licence. Is that seen as "freaking retarded" ?

[Bilge_Rat]

You are factually wrong.

The EULA is not legally binding in many EU countries. And it logically can't be - once you get to read it, you can't return the game anymore since the shops do not accept returns on opened software.

So no, they can not put any specific restrictions in the EULA, which you are only made aware of AFTER you bought the game and can't return it if you disagree.

If they have any specific restrictions to claim they need to be visible before opening the box. This is not the case.

So your standpoint is legally wrong.

no, I am right.



The hallmark of proprietary software licenses is that the software publisher grants a license to use one or more copies of software, but that ownership of those copies remains with the software publisher (hence use of the term "proprietary"). One consequence of this feature of proprietary software licenses is that virtually all rights regarding the software are reserved by the software publisher. Only a very limited set of well-defined rights are conceded to the end-user. Therefore, it is typical of proprietary software license agreements to include many terms which specifically prohibit certain uses of the software, often including uses which would otherwise be allowed under copyright law.

The most significant effect of this form of licensing is that, if ownership of the software remains with the software publisher, then the end-user must accept the software license. In other words, without acceptance of the license, the end-user may not use the software at all.

One example of such a proprietary software license is the license for Microsoft Windows. As is usually the case with proprietary software licenses, this license contains an extensive list of activities which are restricted, such as: reverse engineering, simultaneous use of the software by multiple users, and publication of benchmarks or performance tests.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license

Jwilliams, good find on the Blizzard case. I was looking for it, but did not remember the name. Here is the link to the decision. This case is the one that has the most application to the Ubisoft situation right now, although EULA caselaw is still evolving.

http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarjala/cyberlaw/BlizzardVGateway(EDMo2004).htm

[Iridium]

You pay for a drivers licence. if you do something wrong, it's taken off you. You wont get a refund for what you paid for the licence. Is that seen as "freaking retarded" ?

This is the most clear cut example of a straw man argument combined with argument ad absurdum I've ever seen.

You're comparing apples with explosive birefringence here. I pay a fee to the state to register my drivers license after having taken my driving test, which covers taxes, administrative costs, etc. Maintaining said license is dependent upon my following the assorted legalities set forth by my elected legislature. If I break those laws then yes, I can have my license revoked. I can go to court to

I pay a business for a video game as a consumer, except I am being 'licensed' to use it. The 'license' they put forth will often claim they have a right to revoke the license without warning at their will, as is stated in Ubisoft's EULA here, and I have no recourse... I am forced to agree not to hold Ubisoft liable in the contract they put forth that I have not signed. I can't see this contract until I've opened the game, at which point it is difficult and sometimes impossible to return it.

Do you see the difference there? I certainly hope so.

[msxyz]

Why software should be treated differently from other intellectual properties is beyond me and, probably, common sense as well.

Nobody would dispute that, if I buy a book, I don't own the rights to the written content. I own the support and I am entitled to use it in any way I deem fitting, includind reselling it when I no longer need it.

The same rights should apply to software.

Yet the industry is trying (and the DRM is part of this effort) to limit our freedoms.

If I no longer have need of a certain software I should be able to pass it to another person of my choice. While I don't own a piece of software in the same way I don't own the songs on a CD or the contents of a book, I DO own the support. Preventing other people of my choice to use it (either for free or after some sort mutual agreement) it's lesive of my rights.

[copper01]

Well here we go again 11:00 am in Ohio and cant play, anyone else? This is getting to be a pain in the u know what :damn: :nope:

[Therion_Prime]

Yeah it says "You need an active connection to the internet ....
:damn:

[BlackSpot]

Yep, down in the UK. (15:06pm)

[SteveTRM]

down again lol - this is a joke!

[subsimlee]

12:14 P.M. in Halifax N.S. Down and does anyone ever hear anything from Ubi when this happens ?

[Echo76]

This is unbelievable... And not ANY feedback from *** Those are the 3 letters I won't spell or write ever again ;) . Have the pirates invaded their offices or what the hell is with this silence.

[PortoFerro]

I know this is REALLY old, but resembles the situation soo nicely :har:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7r9Y0SSBQ

[Echo76]

Seems like *** tech support :rotfl2:

[danurve]

...

No thanks :nope: :nope: Looks like I will keep playing SH 3 GWX (being as SH4 STILL sux).

Have to disagree with you there, on SHIV.
Recently bought IV through here and gave the fleet boats a spin. Have to say with TMO or RFB & RSRD IV seems like a decent game. No, it doesn't play like III but there are a few similarities, I expected that.
Point is that may be that last PC game from Ubisoft I buy.

Which leads me to this; as I hold a mere 50$ under Ubi's nose I still have hope that perhaps by the close of hunting season this autum, a patch will emerge, And I would like to thank everyone here, for one of the most entertaining threads I have every gone through. :ping:

[Gilbou]

no, I am right.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license

Jwilliams, good find on the Blizzard case. I was looking for it, but did not remember the name. Here is the link to the decision. This case is the one that has the most application to the Ubisoft situation right now, although EULA caselaw is still evolving.

http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarjala/cyberlaw/BlizzardVGateway(EDMo2004).htm (http://homepages.law.asu.edu/%7Edkarjala/cyberlaw/BlizzardVGateway%28EDMo2004%29.htm)

He is.

In Europe, European law goes OVER each countries law.

That is why from time to time, people go to court in their country.
They lose. They appeal. They lose.
They go to the European court : they win.
Not only the law decisions made in the countries ARE cancelled
and void, but very often the European council makes it mandatory
for the concerned country to CHANGE their law in order to respect
European law which is placed OVER each countrie's ones.

In Europe, a EULA that does not have your signature on paper
or in electronic form (using European-certified asymetric cryptography
signatures like PGP, GnuPG and validated PKI/Crypto/Signing software
like all those respecting OpenPGP) can kiss your ass.

A contract to be valid requires clear and explecit recognition of
terms of the contract. Which means : signature.
Signature on contract, or in electronic form.

In Europe, software EULAs have no force unless when you attack
them in justice they can either produce a signed copy from your
hand of the EULA, or your digital signature on an electronic
form of the EULA.

If your country says otherwise, attack. Appeal.
Move it to European courts, get it broken and see with delight
your coutry law makers shut the **** up, change their law
and go back to their houses their dicks between their legs.

[Gilbou]

Why software should be treated differently from other intellectual properties is beyond me and, probably, common sense as well.

Nobody would dispute that, if I buy a book, I don't own the rights to the written content. I own the support and I am entitled to use it in any way I deem fitting, includind reselling it when I no longer need it.

The same rights should apply to software.

Yet the industry is trying (and the DRM is part of this effort) to limit our freedoms.

If I no longer have need of a certain software I should be able to pass it to another person of my choice. While I don't own a piece of software in the same way I don't own the songs on a CD or the contents of a book, I DO own the support. Preventing other people of my choice to use it (either for free or after some sort mutual agreement) it's lesive of my rights.

the answer is quite simple in fact

Because of the digital nature of software

If I make a copy of a software you do own, the original is not lost

It means that anything that is digital can be "Taken" by anyone,
without removing the original which is not possible in the non-digital
world.

If I take your book, you no longer have it.
If I make a copy of something that is digital, not only do I get
an exact copy, but you still own and have your own copy.

This is absolutely fundamental in understanding it.

The copyright law law and trademark law (there is no such thing
as intellectual property for the law. Ony copying rights, licenses
to use and trademarks) has to be adapted because the digital
world is very different of the real world because of this.

In this digital world, you cannot create nor organize rarity
in order to raise and/or control price.

[Captain von Keldunk]

Failed to connect to the Ubisoft master servers Finnland/helsinki:timeout:
:down: