Will the DRM affect your Purchase?

[prowler3]

I will NOT purchase SHV with the current DRM. I remember Starforce...don't you? I will not allow my computer to have to be conected to somebody's server, to allow me to play a game I legally purchased, EVER. This is a huge security risk, as well as a ridiculous requirement.

I can save my games on MY disks, thank you (that's a lame excuse they gave).

I guess I just saved some money. No wonder I'm going to console games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[THE_MASK]

Why is this poll closing on the 2/2/2010 ?

[SubV]

I'm not buying this unless they decide to remove an online DRM.

Period.

[John W. Hamm]

I'm surprised John's posts are still there! Not surprised about trenkin's post though.



LOL I'm surprised as well :06:...though like I said all of their comments were made in public forums to begin with.


BTW the pole as of this posting is showing 89.25% against ....if my math is correct.

[Hitman]

The myth of Piracy and its impact is an excuse companies like Ubisoft cling to so they can explain away why their sales are not what they expect or promised on that AAA title. It stops those ugly questions of why did you release such a poorly designed and/or buggy game, why is the game lacking any depth and fails to deliver on the marketing. Why is have you not fixed the design flaws and other problems from SH3 in SH4. Why is this full priced game nothing more than a minor expansion pack?

Very good points TB!! :up:

Wonder were they will put their excuses when they realize the failiure of this system. If SH5 with this DRM gets more sales than SH3, that will be due to wider marketing, not due to less pirates. And I bet that, with most modders walking away from it, the long term sales won't be by far as productive as SH3/4.

BTW:

10:08 Am GMT+1 and UBI has lost already 38.200$ in SH5 sales :dead:

And what's more important, the % of potential customers angry with this all and not willing to purchase with this copy system has grown already to 89.25%

[Von Taticus]

Why is this poll closing on the 2/2/2010 ?My Mistake when I posted it. Is there any way of extending it?

Also on a more constructive note I have done a new poll asking for votes to help define a better DRM system to satify both parties.

[Gezoes]

Very good points TB!! :up:

Wonder were they will put their excuses when they realize the failiure of this system. If SH5 with this DRM gets more sales than SH3, that will be due to wider marketing, not due to less pirates. And I bet that, with most modders walking away from it, the long term sales won't be by far as productive as SH3/4.

BTW:

10:08 Am GMT+1 and UBI has lost already 38.200$ in SH5 sales :dead:

And what's more important, the % of potential customers angry with this all and not willing to purchase with this copy system has grown already to 89.25%

It would seem the ball is really rolling... :yeah:

And in case Ubi is watching: No, we don't want this new OPS , PSO, or whatever this new critter is called, POS, either. I want a box in my hand and a cd key, and have FUN with the new episode of one of my favorite game series. I will even accept the scripting, only VII, and no 1944 and 1945. Just drop this George Orwellian stuff looking through my connection cable. Why? It only encourages people towards pirates, and as we all know we'd rather sink juicy concoys :arrgh!:

Moo

[Lt.Fillipidis]

In my opinion, Ubisoft asks too much while giving too few.
Sorry, i'd rather donate 50Euros to the GWX team to support the GWX4 development rather than buying SH5 as it is.

[artao]

This is a HUGE load of BS!!!! I will NOT be buying ANY software product that requires me to have a constant online connection. period. Anti-piracy my shiny metal butt!! Pirates will, and always do, find ways around this brain-dead protection techniques. This will only hurt the legitimate consumer. Ubi can suck it on this one. I hope they get their heads out of their butts and remove this stupid, lame, pointless DRM crap!!!!
BOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

:down::damn::nope::down::damn::nope::down::damn::n ope::o:o:dead::nope::nope:


EDIT: I just found out about this maybe an hour ago and did the requisite research to see what it means .... now I'm really pissed off about it!!! no

[IrishUboot]

DRM = no purchase.

[skip]

This has me really annoyed, I was looking forward to playing Silent Hunter V but the new DRM is unacceptable to me in its current form.

The only way I would accept this new DRM protection would be if you only had to maybe log in once every week or so to get the game working and that after 1 year a patch removing the DRM would be released.

Also for me to accept this DRM it had better succeed at stopping pirates or whats the point.

Suffice to say if UBI leave this DRM policy as it is I wont be buying any more games from them no matter how good they may be. So relax the DRM a bit by having a once weekly login and state a date when the a DRM free patch will be released and I'll sign up.

[rev. beetle]

will not buy even if they add all the boats and run to 1945 and remove drm. ubisoft has forgotten their core fans with this game. this is not the way to continue this series.:dead:

[Malmer]

UBI still owes me for screwing up my optical with that StarForce junk they shipped with SH3...

Guess I'll have to go invest my money somewhere else...

[Steeltrap]

"Tim Renken (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=845298677) DRM works great. I play 4 games that use it. Have you any experience with it?"

Sound familiar, anyone?

[Marko_Ramius]

Hi guys,

I will not purchase this game, in this current DRM state. And this really make me sick. I can't understand why they do this. it must be something under the hood.

SH is the perfect off-line gameplay style, and they want us always online .. my god :down: And savegames on ubi servers :damn:. I may consider savegames like private data, nothing less .. i really doesn't get this.

A game like Crysis-Warhead has DRM, but just one check, and a serial i think. I'm perfectly ok with that.


But in the case of SH5 :

Unacceptable. Period.

[Platapus]

I am frankly torn on this issue.

I want to buy SH5 for the reason (not the only reason though) of supporting the development of submarine simulators.

I am trying to keep an open mind about the game play aspects of the game despite that Ubi only seems to be releasing examples of glitzy graphic eye candy. I am actually much more concerned with game play than the DRM issue.

As for the online requirement:

I do not have a sustained internet connection on my gaming computer. I have two computers in my home office. One is for legitimate computer internet use (surfing for porn :up:) and therefore has a sustained internet connection. My game playing computer does not have a sustained internet connection. Therefore it does not have a firewall or other internet security software taking up cpu time. It is just for playing games.

For those games that require a one time activation or to download mods, I hook up my cable from my hub, access the internet, do my business, and then physically disconnect.

I am also distrusting of any corporation who insists on having continuous access to my computer through the internet. Just because they "pinky swear" not to do anything wrong, they could. How trusting am I? When it comes to commercial companies, not very trusting at all. Now I would have to firewall my gaming computer to protect myself from any unauthorized (by me) access.

I might be willing to do this if I got something in return. But I am not.

Ubi, like any other corporation needs to be concerned with theft/piracy. That is their problem and I hope they can solve their problem, but leave me, the paying customer out. I am not the problem. Honestly, I am not the slightest bit interested in helping Ubi, or any other corporation solve their problem.

I am a customer. I pay them money and I get a product/service. Whether the company has or does not have any issues with theft/piracy is not my concern as I am neither a thief nor a pirate.

But when their solution to their problem starts to interfere with my doing business with their company, it becomes my problem.

I do not steal nor pirate software. I am willing to be subjected to a reasonable amount of inconvenience as a result of Ubi attempting to solve their problem. But there is a limit to what I, as an honest customer, will accept.

I am also a rabid capitalist. Nothing is free. A company wants me to accept more inconvenience for their problem? The company better offer me some compensation. The equation of Price paid + inconvenience = product/service gets unprofitable from the customer's viewpoint when the inconvenience increases with no other adjustments.

Will the continuous online requirement keep me from buying the game? I don't know. I don't like it, but I also want to support the development of submarine simulators.

Perhaps the solution is for me to buy SH5 when it comes out but not install it until this online issue is resolved to my satisfaction?

That would be a noble solution (financially supporting the development) but by buying SH5, am I passively sending a message to Ubi that I accept their solution to their problem?

If I don't buy SH5, am I passively sending a message to Ubi that I don't want any further development in submarine simulators?

I am honestly torn on this.

Which is more important to me

Supporting future development in submarine simulators?
Communicating my dislike for how Ubi is trying to solve their problem?

Either choice has disadvantages that are important to me.

For myself, I don't see a win-win solution to this complicated issue.

[Steeltrap]

Plat, so long as you purchase SH5 with this version of DRM you are sending the signal it is acceptable.

It's a bit like a restaurant serving oysters with excrement sauce. I like oysters, but I won't pay for them if they are served with excrement. Change your menu and I'll remain a customer, but I won't pay for this dish as it stands.

Cheers

[Steeltrap]

Wow.

942 votes and only 11.04% saying "it makes no difference to me".

:hmmm:

[KL-alfman]

Plat, so long as you purchase SH5 with this version of DRM you are sending the signal it is acceptable.

It's a bit like a restaurant serving oysters with excrement sauce. I like oysters, but I won't pay for them if they are served with excrement. Change your menu and I'll remain a customer, but I won't pay for this dish as it stands.

Cheers


crude but funny analogy :rotfl2:

[Platapus]

Plat, so long as you purchase SH5 with this version of DRM you are sending the signal it is acceptable.



Excellent and logical point.

[Steeltrap]

Excellent and logical point.

Thanks. At the same time, however, I'm pretty sure most of us want to continue to encourage and support Ubi's developing these games.

This form of DRM is going 1m below crush depth, though.....

[Sailor Steve]

I know I don't live a normal life,
But you certainly live an interesting one!

You may or may not be a dinosaur, but if you are you have lots of good company.:shucks:

[Jimbuna]

Plat, so long as you purchase SH5 with this version of DRM you are sending the signal it is acceptable.

It's a bit like a restaurant serving oysters with excrement sauce. I like oysters, but I won't pay for them if they are served with excrement. Change your menu and I'll remain a customer, but I won't pay for this dish as it stands.

Cheers

That's me finished as far as the seafood section of the menu is concerned :o

[RickC Sniper]

@Platapus

You and I have the same line of thought on this issue.

I still do not know what I will decide to do in March.

[jerm138]

One is for legitimate computer internet use (surfing for porn :up:)

Thank you for the laugh. I'm trying to hold it in because I'm at work, but it's only making it worse...

[Platapus]

Thank you for the laugh. I'm trying to hold it in because I'm at work, but it's only making it worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W31ue-9u4z4&feature=fvw

[Nbjackso]

I don't get it? I'm not a college graduate, but I don't understand UBI's thought process. If you are willing to alienate lets say 40% of your potential buyers in order to thwart let's say 10% loss of sales due to piracy. That's 30% less $$$$$ your going to make, and @ $50.00 a pop, times a couple hundred thousand units. That's a lot of chicken feed in my book. Someone double check my numbers. Like I said, I'm no mathematician.

[tonschk]

I voted "Makes no difference to me" The Silent Hunter SH3/4 game is the ONLY one game I play ( the first person shooters games are silly/boring and Colin Mc Rae DIRT soon become boring) and I have excellent and permanent internet connection , UBISOFT is the owner/developer of this software/game ,unfortunately we dont have plenty of other submarine simulations to choose from , .................. Therefore without a doubt I will buy this SH5 game http://1.2.3.11/bmi/1.2.3.11/bmi/forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[Platapus]

I don't get it? I'm not a college graduate, but I don't understand UBI's thought process. If you are willing to alienate lets say 40% of your potential buyers in order to thwart let's say 10% loss of sales due to piracy. That's 30% less $$$$$ your going to make, and @ $50.00 a pop, times a couple hundred thousand units. That's a lot of chicken feed in my book. Someone double check my numbers. Like I said, I'm no mathematician.

One of the harder things to calculate is the number of people who didn't buy your product and the number that would have bought it except for XXX happening.

The best that can be made is an estimation. Even polls can not be accurate. What people say on polls or on internet forums may or may not be what they end up doing.

So the 40% alienated is an estimate difficult to measure after the fact.

The 10% loss due to piracy is also difficult to verify. It may be higher or lower. Ubi has stated in articles that it is their belief that it is higher a lot higher. Are they right or wrong? Dunno.

Even if there won't be that much piracy with SH5, Ubi may want to have a standardized system for all their titles from now on. It is much easier (and perhaps cheaper) to just declare that all Ubi games will have this DRM instead of trying to determine what title should or should not have this DRM.

Business decisions such as this are seldom simple math equations. There may be factors besides sales numbers and some of them may have nothing to do with this specific title.

One thing Ubi knows is how to make a profit in selling software. We, the consumer, may never know the rational for this DRM decision and many of us probably would not fully understand the rational even if it was told to us.

Of course, this does not invalidate our rights, as customers, to dislike this decision and perhaps allow it to affect our consumer decisions.

[longam]

Just posted this in another thread but wanted to mirror here......

I just downloaded the ROF demo and played it with DRM and it really wasn't that much different then without it.

I don't know, I'm starting to think we don't want it because it has become the norm of the forum to see negative.

I have to trust on a stable internet connection to a server somewhere in someplace everyday for our corp email and ISP to work. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to get on the internet everyday. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to be here and posting everyday.

I'm changing my view and buying SH5 with or without DRM. I just hope that it makes a difference on piracy so we can have some great games to come in the future.

longam

[Thomen]

Just posted this in another thread but wanted to mirror here......

I just downloaded the ROF demo and played it with DRM and it really wasn't that much different then without it.

I don't know, I'm starting to think we don't want it because it has become the norm of the forum to see negative.

I have to trust on a stable internet connection to a server somewhere in someplace everyday for our corp email and ISP to work. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to get on the internet everyday. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to be here and posting everyday.

I'm changing my view and buying SH5 with or without DRM. I just hope that it makes a difference on piracy so we can have some great games to come in the future.

longam

While I respect your opinion, I'd advice that you wait at least a couple of days after initial release and read the reviews and/or forums. Would really suck, to buy the game and just find out that the Ubi servers can't handle it, or the whole system does not work as promised.

[Webster]

Just posted this in another thread but wanted to mirror here......

I just downloaded the ROF demo and played it with DRM and it really wasn't that much different then without it.

I don't know, I'm starting to think we don't want it because it has become the norm of the forum to see negative.

I have to trust on a stable internet connection to a server somewhere in someplace everyday for our corp email and ISP to work. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to get on the internet everyday. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to be here and posting everyday.

I'm changing my view and buying SH5 with or without DRM. I just hope that it makes a difference on piracy so we can have some great games to come in the future.

longam

im glad you dont have any worries but you missed the whole problem 95% of the anti DRM people have.

its not about how the game plays as much as who is automaticly excluded from being able to play the game.

having to have a perminant, affordable, and stable connection to UBI servers to play the game is like saying this game is only for people who were born with blonde hair and everyone else must get with the program because that is how it is and thats the future so if you werent born with blonde hair you cant play the game.

connections to internet servers are like your hair color you are born with, it is what it is and its not something you can just change (even thou you can change hair color)

[longam]

connections to internet servers are like your hair color you are born with, it is what it is and its not something you can just change (even thou you can change hair color)

Being in the IT field and also just moving from BFE, I know exactly what you mean by that. But I'm going to be a strong believer that they will back down and remove DRM after the profits are made to keep down on expenditures after the fact. UBI isnt going to spend money on increasing or updating if they dont have to.

[onelifecrisis]

im glad you dont have any worries but you missed the whole problem 95% of the anti DRM people have.

its not about how the game plays as much as who is automaticly excluded from being able to play the game.

having to have a perminant, affordable, and stable connection to UBI servers to play the game is like saying this game is only for people who were born with blonde hair and everyone else must get with the program because that is how it is and thats the future so if you werent born with blonde hair you cant play the game.

connections to internet servers are like your hair color you are born with, it is what it is and its not something you can just change (even thou you can change hair color)

Uh... what!?

It's a PC game. That means it's already just about the most elitist form of "mass entertainment" that there is. You're saying it's okay for them to exclude everyone who can't afford a few thousand dollars worth of gaming hardware, but it's wrong of them to exclude those who can't afford/obtain a solid internet connection? Where is the logic in that?

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Not as much as all the missing material that should be there.
All the best implements came late for the Germans, and way to late for us.
Look at the pic and tell me what kind of sim it is with out all the gray,
it's way less than half.

[Webster]

Uh... what!?

You're saying it's okay for them to exclude everyone who can't afford a few thousand dollars worth of gaming hardware, but it's wrong of them to exclude those who can't afford/obtain a solid internet connection? Where is the logic in that?

nothing in my words speak to the system requirements for the game issue, that is a seperate question altogether.

what i am saying is exactly what i said and dont lump it into any asumptions about any other aspects of the concerns over sh5

[609_Avatar]

I was planning on buying this one but after hearing that they will follow suit with the Rise of Flight attempt at this (which is rumored to be taken away for single player due to the outcry against it) form of DMR I have decided that SH4 will probably be my last purchase of this type. If they ever do remove the DMR I will then revisit this decision. Too bad really and I feel for the developers. :cry:

[THE_MASK]

The internet reliability is not an issue for me , but the reliability of the servers Ubi would use is .

[Der Teddy Bar]

Just posted this in another thread but wanted to mirror here......

I just downloaded the ROF demo and played it with DRM and it really wasn't that much different then without it.

I don't know, I'm starting to think we don't want it because it has become the norm of the forum to see negative.

I have to trust on a stable internet connection to a server somewhere in someplace everyday for our corp email and ISP to work. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to get on the internet everyday. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to be here and posting everyday.

I'm changing my view and buying SH5 with or without DRM. I just hope that it makes a difference on piracy so we can have some great games to come in the future.

longam
longam,

Let me repost my experience with having RoF before they remove the always online 'feature'...
I am a fool and at this moment in time I feel I would have been better pissing my money up against the wall.

I have been a abstainer of RoF because of the 'always online' but with Jason's news about the removal of the 'always online', the quick battle generator and hints that RoF has some better direction happening And the 50% off for the demo upgrade I thought I could not loose...

But that feeling lasted less than 4 hours with about 30 minutes of game time.

I would be playing right now if I did not have a "your connection to the master-server was temporarily lost. Check your internet-connection"

I feel so embarrassed to have been suckered into buying RoF

Add to this I am moving house in a month, again and when my house is finished in September. During this time I expect to be without internet for 2 weeks minimum.

2 weeks in which I cannot play any 'always online' game. FFS.

Also as noted in an earlier post, over the last 4 years I would have been unable to play any 'always online' game for some 21 weeks or 5.1 months, this is unacceptable.

[Jimbuna]

But I'm going to be a strong believer that they will back down and remove DRM after the profits are made to keep down on expenditures after the fact. UBI isnt going to spend money on increasing or updating if they dont have to.

I have posted similarly on another thread.

The internet reliability is not an issue for me , but the reliability of the servers Ubi would use is .

Precisely.

[tonschk]

Just posted this in another thread but wanted to mirror here......

I just downloaded the ROF demo and played it with DRM and it really wasn't that much different then without it.

I don't know, I'm starting to think we don't want it because it has become the norm of the forum to see negative.

I have to trust on a stable internet connection to a server somewhere in someplace everyday for our corp email and ISP to work. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to get on the internet everyday. You have to trust on a server somewhere and someplace to be here and posting everyday.

I'm changing my view and buying SH5 with or without DRM. I just hope that it makes a difference on piracy so we can have some great games to come in the future.

longam


:salute: I Agree With You :yeah: I AM addicted just to the SILENT HUNTER Series and I Play anything else on my PC ,...... Therefore without a doubt I will BUY this SILENT HUNTER 5 game http://1.2.3.13/bmi/1.2.3.11/bmi/1.2.3.11/bmi/forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
__________________

[Onkel Neal]

There may possibly be a couple thousand people who will not buy SH5 out of principle, it will not have a big impact on sales.

[Letum]

There may possibly be a couple thousand people who will not buy SH5 out of principle, it will not have a big impact on sales.

Seeing as it has effected ~85% of sales here, I think it's safe to assume
it will effect at least 10% of sales elsewhere.
We arn't that unrepresentative here.

I don't know what kind of margins Ubi works on, but that certainly isn't
an insignificant impact.

[Onkel Neal]

It's never safe to assume :) but 85% of the people who have taken the time to vote in this poll is only 900 people. That's not many when a game sells 90,000 copies, barely .1% Multiplay that by 10 for all the sub gamers who don't speak English and do not vote here, you have 1%.

And how many of the 1% who say they will not get the game will cave in and buy it? What's your guess?

[Rip]

Seeing as it has effected ~85% of sales here, I think it's safe to assume
it will effect at least 10% of sales elsewhere.
We arn't that unrepresentative here.

I don't know what kind of margins Ubi works on, but that certainly isn't
an insignificant impact.

Keep in mind it isn't just SHV. I have Assassin's Creed and won't buy 2 because of this and I am quite sure I am not alone. Then when the inevitable downtimes happen they will regularly piss off their customers. A class action suit cannot be far off.

[Onkel Neal]

Class action based on what? You didn't buy the game :)

This reminds me of the upraor when it was announced SH3 would only come on a DVD :o There were demands it should come on a CD, people didn't want to buy an expensive new DVD player. Not to mention the fellow who insisted it should come on 26 floppies :)


Did AC2 sales suffer? Not from what I hear. (http://www.product-reviews.net/2009/11/23/assassins-creed-2-sales-better-than-original/)

Although Modern Warfare 2 is still at the top of all UK sales charts Assassin’s Creed 2’s launch has been extremely successful, so successful that its sales figures are more impressive than the original Assassin’s Creed.
According to a recent article posted on Joystiq in total sales of the game outperformed the original by 12 percent (in terms of unit sales).

[Rip]

It's never safe to assume :) but 85% of the people who have taken the time to vote in this poll is only 900 people. That's not many when a game sells 90,000 copies, barely .1% Multiplay that by 10 for all the sub gamers who don't speak English and do not vote here, you have 1%.

And how many of the 1% who say they will not get the game will cave in and buy it? What's your guess?

Ahh but it is a survey although not well balanced one. I expect all non-MMO games they do this in will have major outcry about it. Even my MMO titles like L4D let me play in SP if they have it without constant connection. **** look at how irate the MMO players get when there are server outages and they know they have good reason to not be able to play. Getting kicked out of SP games because of internet connection or server issues are going to be severe IMHO. We should know in the next year or so.

[KL-alfman]

Not to mention the fellow who insisted it should come on 26 floppies :)


3 1/2'' or 5 1/4'' ??

http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys3/Bolt.gif

[Rip]

Class action based on what? You didn't buy the game :)

This remonds me of the upraor when it was announced SH3 would only come on a DVD :o There were demands it should come on a CD, people didn't want to buy an expensive new DVD player. Not to mention the fellow who insisted it should come on 26 floppies :)


Not yet but I will. If for no other reason than to make sure I am eligible for the class action.

However I still expect them to "discover" a way to allow offline play with occasional calls home. There is simply no reasonable reason not to.

[artao]

I want SH V on 10" disks!! :rotfl2:

[Mikhayl]

To be fair, the sales figure for AC2 are only for consoles. The PC versions will be released soon with the new DRM/OSP thingy, I guess this will be the benchmark. And it will also show whether or not that new protection is cracked within days like all previous DRM.

Also,internet connection is different than hardware requirement. Just today I've been kicked a good dozen times from the net, anywhere between 2 and 15 minutes each time. To me that's unacceptable in a solo game. Especially that when I'm offline I fire up SH3 to test mods :)

[Onkel Neal]

To be fair, the sales figure for AC2 are only for consoles. The PC versions will be released soon with the new DRM/OSP thingy, I guess this will be the benchmark. And it will also show whether or not that new protection is cracked within days like all previous DRM.



Re: AC2, consoles, good point. :yep: I overlooked that the article was talking about consoles, not PC.

All or most? My friends tell me ROF has not been cracked...

[artao]

Pardon me if this is inappropriate but ... I'm wondering what the opinion in general is of actually BUYING a game, then running the 'cracked' copy, in the sense of legality/morality .... hmmm ?? This isn't about piracy, but convenience ... :hmmm: ..... :yeah:?? :down:??

[Onkel Neal]

Pardon me if this is inappropriate but ... I'm wondering what the opinion in general is of actually BUYING a game, then running the 'cracked' copy, in the sense of legality/morality .... hmmm ?? This isn't about piracy, but convenience ... :hmmm: ..... :yeah:?? :down:??

Understood. Using a cack on a legally purchased copy of the game is morally fine...but of course as we know, NO ONE steals games and uses these cracks to play them. So we cannot allow people to share info about cracks here. You can do as you wish but you cannot discuss it here:salute:

[Mikhayl]

All or most? My friends tell me ROF has not been cracked...

Yep I think that's true. Let's say all "big" titles :) I can't think of one "blockbuster" PC game that hasn't been cracked so far.

[artao]

understood ... I don't and shan't do such :D ... just curious about legality/morality, as I said ... :|\\

[Onkel Neal]

My opinion, a copy protection scheme should stop 100% of the pirates and work fine for 99% of the customers, otherwise it is useless. If I were making this call, I would announce SH5 will have a registration online requirement and the game will need to check online once every 20 or so startups; and I would make the promise, that if SH5 is cracked, Ubisoft will immediately release a patch to remove the DRM.

Is this DRM good enough to stand up to that challenge? If not, why use it? But if it works, even after taunting the a-holes who think it's cool to steal, awesome. :up:

But of course, that's just my opinion. I'm also the guy who thinks big game publishers should have a dept. that monitors these cracker websites, and engineers fake cracks that erase pirates' hard drives when they download a crack :cool:

[jerm138]

I'm also the guy who thinks big game publishers should have a dept. that monitors these cracker websites, and engineers fake cracks that erase pirates' hard drives when they download a crack :cool:One hurdle to this diabolical plan is that a lot of the torrent sites allow you to post comments on each download page. So if something malicious is detected, people warn others not to download it, and they stop seeding the file. The Crackers (I mean that in a strictly non-racial sense :O:) gain a reputation and some amount of mini-fame based on their work, so it would be difficult to get far enough into that underworld to do much damage because as soon as you started making bad releases, people would stop downloading your torrents and you'd be blacklisted.

Maybe if they could make some sort of "time-bomb" release... So that the pirated copy works without issue, then a week later, the whole system locks up. By that time, enough people would have it on their computer to really make an impact, especially when it hits the news that "thousands of computers have been rendered useless when people used a pirated version of this program" :arrgh!:

[Hitman]

It's never safe to assume :) but 85% of the people who have taken the time to vote in this poll is only 900 people. That's not many when a game sells 90,000 copies, barely .1% Multiplay that by 10 for all the sub gamers who don't speak English and do not vote here, you have 1%.

And how many of the 1% who say they will not get the game will cave in and buy it? What's your guess?

That's a wrong way to look at the figures (And you know it ;)). You take the part that most suits your reasoning, the absolute numbers (900 users). But the real interest of this poll are the percentages, because if this poll is representative of the whole potential buyers group in terms of percentages, then you are looking at:

90.000 x 85/100 = 76.500 people not interested in buying it now.

And FYI, a similar poll has been run in the spanish forums, with nearly identical results in terms of percentages (Only 10-15% will buy it with this DRM): http://www.24flotilla.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=35811

And also in the german ones: http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3431013487/m/6881088728/showpollresults/Y

And the posts in the french webs are not exactly happy with the system: http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39043&st=25&start=25

Neither the italian ones: http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=31862&view=findpost&p=304105

Or in the russian ones: http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=59875&page=3

As I have said many times, the sub simulators community is not by any means comparable to any action shooter one. We are quite different people, but UBI insists to ignore that. Oh well, I'm not sorry for UBI or even for us. I'm sorry for the dedicated Devs, who have put a lot of effort into this, and don't deserve this low kick :nope:

Never mind.

[Brag]

To add to Hitman's comments:

It isn't just sugmarine forums who are up in arms, in other game forums, a large number of people are against DRM/OSP, there is also a large number of opnion blogs against it.

At the moment, Ubi is swimming against the tide of general public opinion, of which we are a small part.

In short, Ubi has made a humongous mistake. We are on the forefront of this event because "our" game is the next one up.

It isn't only our wallets that will remain shut. Ubi is loosing costumers all over the place. It won't be long when their bean crunchers notice this.

[jerm138]

That's a wrong way to look at the figures (And you know it ;)). You take the part that most suits your reasoning, the absolute numbers (900 users).

Agreed.

Here's an example to show just how ridiculous that reasoning is:

Let's say I poll every man in my hometown (population 10,000) and ask if he'd like to be kicked square in the crotch. 9,997 reply "Absolutely Not!" (there are a few weirdos.) Multiply by 10 for all the men in other cities that I didn't poll. <--- Not sure how that works, but whatever

So then I take that data and say that of the roughly 3,300,000,000 men in the world, only 99,970 have a problem with being kicked square in the crotch. That's only 0.003%! So the other 99.997 percent of men have no problem taking a foot square to the crotch.:har:

[Onkel Neal]

One hurdle to this diabolical plan is that a lot of the torrent sites allow you to post comments on each download page. So if something malicious is detected, people warn others not to download it, and they stop seeding the file. The Crackers (I mean that in a strictly non-racial sense :O:) gain a reputation and some amount of mini-fame based on their work, so it would be difficult to get far enough into that underworld to do much damage because as soon as you started making bad releases, people would stop downloading your torrents and you'd be blacklisted.

Maybe if they could make some sort of "time-bomb" release... So that the pirated copy works without issue, then a week later, the whole system locks up. By that time, enough people would have it on their computer to really make an impact, especially when it hits the news that "thousands of computers have been rendered useless when people used a pirated version of this program" :arrgh!:

Awesome, I love the way you think! :up:
Yeah, I realize the fake cracks my dept would be seeding would soon get blacklisted, but that's ok, my guys would be continually creating new crackers IDs and releasing new landmine cracks :D That would be their sole job.





That's a wrong way to look at the figures (And you know it ;)). You take the part that most suits your reasoning, the absolute numbers (900 users). But the real interest of this poll are the percentages, because if this poll is representative of the whole potential buyers group in terms of percentages, then you are looking at:

90.000 x 85/100 = 76.500 people not interested in buying it now.



No...oooo, not exactly. What I meant, was that out of all the customers worldwide, 900 are here, ground zero for english speaking die-hard subsimmers, saying that DRM is a deal-breaker. And similar numbers of non-english speaking people in other forums, like I mentioned earlier, so a few thousand. You cannot extropolate that percentage against the whole market (90,000 for example) because I contend there are two very different market segments:

Diehard subsimmers: 1% - post in Subsim, SimHQ, German, French Spanish forums. This matters a lot to them (but a bunch will buy the game anyway).
General gamers: 99% - Don't know much about U-boats except they are German, sink ships, and don't care so much about DRM. "Oh, I have to be connected to the Internet? Ok."

Now, granted, these are not researched numbers, so they percentages are debatable. I bet Ubisoft knows more about the numbers than any of us. But, the market segments, I'm pretty confident on that. If 85% of 90,000 SH4 players were as into subsims as you and me, Subsim forums would have a lot more than 7000 people online daily.

:)
Neal







And FYI, a similar poll has been run in the spanish forums, with nearly identical results in terms of percentages (Only 10-15% will buy it with this DRM): http://www.24flotilla.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=35811

And also in the german ones: http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3431013487/m/6881088728/showpollresults/Y

And the posts in the french webs are not exactly happy with the system: http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39043&st=25&start=25

Neither the italian ones: http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=31862&view=findpost&p=304105

Or in the russian ones: http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=59875&page=3



Right, and that's why I said "Multiplay that by 10 for all the sub gamers who don't speak English and do not vote here, you have 1%."

Btw, how the heck do you what these guys are talking about? You read Russian too? :o

[Onkel Neal]

Agreed.

Here's an example to show just how ridiculous that reasoning is:

Let's say I poll every man in my hometown (population 10,000) and ask if he'd like to be kicked square in the crotch. 9,997 reply "Absolutely Not!" (there are a few weirdos.) Multiply by 10 for all the men in other cities that I didn't poll. <--- Not sure how that works, but whatever

So then I take that data and say that of the roughly 3,300,000,000 men in the world, only 99,970 have a problem with being kicked square in the crotch. That's only 0.003%! So the other 99.997 percent of men have no problem taking a foot square to the crotch.:har:

Haha, I think the difference clearly is, no one wants to get kicked in the crotch, a lot of people don't know or care about online authentication. And don't call my reasoning ridiculous, that's insulting ;)

[ryanglavin]

Diehard subsimmers: 1% - post in Subsim, SimHQ, German, French Spanish forums. This matters a lot to them (but a bunch will buy the game anyway).
General gamers: 99% - Don't know much about U-boats except they are German, sink ships, and don't care so much about DRM. "Oh, I have to be connected to the Internet? Ok."



Great story, i was ranting to a friend about DRM in SH 5, (Btw he isn't a hardcore simmer like us), and He says "Huh? DRM? Whats that exactly?" So i explain to him its where you have to use the internet to connect.
His response was "Thats easy! Its just like X-Box Live!"
I walk away from him and fail to mention that theres gonna be 500,000 updates. Thats how I came to the realization that the game will still sell with everyone else.

[Onkel Neal]

That's my point. It doesn't matter that I do not like having to be connected to play, I don't. But there are so many more people who buy the SH games who are not posting in subsim forums that it's clear, they make up the buying majority. And all the people I know in this group, who are not hip to everything new about PC games, would just shrug. To them, online connection is just a requirement, like Grfx card and DVD drive.

[Rip]

That's my point. It doesn't matter that I do not like having to be connected to play, I don't. But there are so many more people who buy the SH games who are not posting in subsim forums that it's clear, they make up the buying majority. And all the people I know in this group, who are not hip to everything new about PC games, would just shrug. To them, online connection is just a requirement, like Grfx card and DVD drive.


I agree until they have been unable to play their game a half dozen times in a month. Then they will scream out loud and clear. People are not going to like being unable to play solely because of anti-piracy measures. I am very interested in how this plays out. I think this will dwarf the Starforce outcry.

[Letum]

That would mean that the Subsim people are extremely
unrepresentative of sub-simulation buyers.

I find that hard to believe.

I strongly suspect we are somewhat representative and
if that is the case, it is clear that the impact of the wider
reaction to the DRM will be significant.

[Hitman]

Btw, how the heck do you what these guys are talking about? You read Russian too? :o

Yes

Diehard subsimmers: 1% - post in Subsim, SimHQ, German, French Spanish forums. This matters a lot to them (but a bunch will buy the game anyway).
General gamers: 99% - Don't know much about U-boats except they are German, sink ships, and don't care so much about DRM. "Oh, I have to be connected to the Internet? Ok."

Now, granted, these are not researched numbers, so they percentages are debatable. I bet Ubisoft knows more about the numbers than any of us. But, the market segments, I'm pretty confident on that. If 85% of 90,000 SH4 players were as into subsims as you and me, Subsim forums would have a lot more than 7000 people online daily.

I find it difficult that the percentage is 99% versus 1%, because in that case the sales figures wouldn't be 90.000 but much higher, as with any arcade title.

But in any case, I hope that once the first year of SH5 has gone, and the arcade bunch has bought SH5, -and because that arcade bunch has no interest whatsoever in "older" games, but just in the latest- UBI removes the stupid DRM. So that diehard simmers, those who ensure the sales figures of such games do not decline as in arcades, will keep getting the product.

Somehow I think that this online check system can't be permanently mantained in the future. I mean, yes UBI can release all his titles with this sytem, but once the game is past its prime time and sales have declined, why keep wasting money in servers for guys who long ago gave their money to the company? It seems economically more efficient to use this online check just to prevent pirates from ruining the sales, and then, when sales decline justifies it, open the game and cut server costs that are of more interest for newer releases.

I hope. :hmmm:

[Letum]

Why spend more money on a game that has stopped selling to open it
up to offline play?

Why not just close down the server and forget about it, as ubisoft has
done with it's servers hosting multiplayer lobbies on some old (and not
that old!) games?

[Hitman]

Why spend more money on a game that has stopped selling to open it
up to offline play?

Why not just close down the server and forget about it, as ubisoft has
done with it's servers hosting multiplayer lobbies on some old (and not
that old!) games?

Because simulators, unlike arcades, keep selling well past their prime time. And UBI must know this, from past experience with SH2/3/4. And because this protection system scares some customers and UBI also knows it. Once UBI has the money from the ones who are not scared and from the pirates who would bite the bullet and buy the game (If there are any at all, which I doubt), why not get also the money from those who would buy it without a DRM? That seems the more complete procedure for milking the market till the last drop, doesn't it? :haha:

If the patch that removes the DRM is prepared since the game was conceived, -and the logic dictates it should be so, just in case it must be used for some reason-, releasing it to boost sales seems a reasonable way of making business. :hmmm:

[jerm138]

Why spend more money on a game that has stopped selling to open it
up to offline play?

Why not just close down the server and forget about it, as ubisoft has
done with it's servers hosting multiplayer lobbies on some old (and not
that old!) games?

+1

That message should ring loudly to the people (like myself) who DO have a constant internet connection and won't be immediately affected by having to maintain that connection. How many patches does UBI release after the bulk of their sales have been made on a product... even a sim product? Why would they waste the money to patch over the DRM?... especially since they've already said that it's hard-coded into every aspect of the game and would be a monumental task to remove.

Perhaps they wouldn't leave us in the dust like that, but it would be nice to know for sure, one way or another.

[Hitman]

they've already said that it's hard-coded into every aspect of the game and would be a monumental task to remove

Humm where? I'd like to read that :hmmm:

[jerm138]

And don't [call] my reasoning ridiculous, that's insulting ;)

No disrespect intended (actually... I didn't even know it was you who made that original argument... I read it from the post I quoted.)

Regardless, my opinion on biased number-crunching still stands, but the points you made after my comment clarifies what you were getting at, and I tend to agree a little more now...

It seems you were getting at the fact that, although Subsim members don't make up the majority of players, they DO make up the majority of players who are in-the-know about DRM. If that's the case, then I agree that our 85% who are unhappy about DRM is not representative of 85% of people worldwide who may buy the game.

So.... how do we educate casual players about DRM? :O:

[Brag]

Every indication is that it was done or is being done at the last minute.

OSP = Ober Subsimmers Polizei

[jerm138]

Humm where? I'd like to read that :hmmm:

I believe it's linked to somewhere on this thread.

Let me start fishing through the 300-something posts and try to find it...

[Mikhayl]

IIRC it's Trenken who made the claim that DRM is embedded so deep in the game code that it could take months and heavy reprogramming to remove it.

Either it's not true and the system will most likely be cracked very fast (like GTA IV).

Or it's true and Ubi won't bother patching that mess to remove the DRM, so when they decide to discontinue support, the game dies.

[MercurySeven]

+1

That message should ring loudly to the people (like myself) who DO have a constant internet connection and won't be immediately affected by having to maintain that connection. How many patches does UBI release after the bulk of their sales have been made on a product... even a sim product? Why would they waste the money to patch over the DRM?... especially since they've already said that it's hard-coded into every aspect of the game and would be a monumental task to remove.

Perhaps they wouldn't leave us in the dust like that, but it would be nice to know for sure, one way or another.

Well it can't be THAT hard to shut off. UBI promised in regard to any of their upcomming games that just in case they should decide to discontinue their servers for that game they will first release a patch that allows to play the game without the UBI servers. That, to me, sounds like a complete removal of all negative aspects of the DRM. (Actually all the so far promoted aspects of the DRM)

[jerm138]

Thanks Mikhayl,
I just found those posts myself and was on my way back here to apologize for "quoting" something that unreliable.

[Hitman]

Never mind Jerm. it's good you mentioned it because we have been able to double check it :up:

UBI promised in regard to any of their upcomming games that just in case they should decide to discontinue their servers for that game they will first release a patch that allows to play the game without the UBI servers

Precisely. That's what I was hoping for, and in any case, unless it is really, really required for the DRM to work, I don't see why they would make it so complicated innecessarily. The real professional way of doing things is having total and easy control, not burying yourself so deep in sh*t that you have later more problems, should you want to make choices.

[Onkel Neal]

Yes



I find it difficult that the percentage is 99% versus 1%, because in that case the sales figures wouldn't be 90.000 but much higher, as with any arcade title.

But in any case, I hope that once the first year of SH5 has gone, and the arcade bunch has bought SH5, -and because that arcade bunch has no interest whatsoever in "older" games, but just in the latest- UBI removes the stupid DRM. So that diehard simmers, those who ensure the sales figures of such games do not decline as in arcades, will keep getting the product.

Somehow I think that this online check system can't be permanently mantained in the future. I mean, yes UBI can release all his titles with this sytem, but once the game is past its prime time and sales have declined, why keep wasting money in servers for guys who long ago gave their money to the company? It seems economically more efficient to use this online check just to prevent pirates from ruining the sales, and then, when sales decline justifies it, open the game and cut server costs that are of more interest for newer releases.

I hope. :hmmm:

Yeah, I don't claim to know all the numbers with precision. I do know, with a high degree of confidence, that SH3 sold around 90,000 units within the first 18 months of its release. And a little over 900 people in this forum represents 1% of that total. I see I have a math error in my earlier post; 900 is 1% of 90,000, not .1% :88) (that's what I get for using a calculator without commas). So you were right to question the 1% conclusion, it would be more like 10% after you take the Subsim 1% and increase it tenfold.

Still, that's 90% of the sales would be unaffected (under my premise).

[Brag]

Yeah, I don't claim to know all the numbers with precision. I do know, with a high degree of confidence, that SH3 sold around 90,000 units within the first 18 months of its release. And a little over 900 people in this forum represents 1% of that total. I see I have a math error in my earlier post; 900 is 1% of 90,000, not .1% :88) (that's what I get for using a calculator without commas). So you were right to question the 1% conclusion, it would be more like 10% after you take the Subsim 1% and increase it tenfold.

Still, that's 90% of the sales would be unaffected (under my premise).

Neal,

One also has to take into consideration the snowball effect in the Internet. Even ignorant of what's going on in this forum, people are bitching. I foresee a considerable drop in sales for other games also.

I think. the people who have voted in this poll are representative of a majority of people who bought SH3. So the effect will be much larger than 1% in lost sales.

Moo, :DL

[jerm138]

Another big factor would be the large number of casual gamers who will only consider buying a game after it has been released and several user reviews have been made at websites like IGN. A lot of those potential sales will be steered by how well it performs for the front-running pioneers. If there aren't many problems, and DRM seems to be a non-issue to most, then it will score well and that could help support a lot more sales. On the flipside, if half of the early users have problems with the DRM servers and other bugs, then a whole lot of casual gamers will see "Readers' Score: 5/10" and keep right on going.

And as much as we don't like it... casual gamers are where the big $$ is at.

[Onkel Neal]

Neal,

One also has to take into consideration the snowball effect in the Internet. Even ignorant of what's going on in this forum, people are bitching. I foresee a considerable drop in sales for other games also.

I think. the people who have voted in this poll are representative of a majority of people who bought SH3. So the effect will be much larger than 1% in lost sales.

Moo, :DL

Yes, that is possible. The uproar and bad word-of-mouth by a small percentage could influence a much larger population.

I hope not, though, or Silent Hunter is dead :dead:


Another big factor would be the large number of casual gamers who will only consider buying a game after it has been released and several user reviews have been made at websites like IGN. A lot of those potential sales will be steered by how well it performs for the front-running pioneers. If there aren't many problems, and DRM seems to be a non-issue to most, then it will score well and that could help support a lot more sales. On the flipside, if half of the early users have problems with the DRM servers and other bugs, then a whole lot of casual gamers will see "Readers' Score: 5/10" and keep right on going.



Yes, and you know, as badly as some people here think this DRM is, just imagine if the game comes out half-done, with bugs, glitches and broken features. Now, that's a real concern.

[Gilbou]

Understood. Using a cack on a legally purchased copy of the game is morally fine...but of course as we know, NO ONE steals games and uses these cracks to play them. So we cannot allow people to share info about cracks here. You can do as you wish but you cannot discuss it here:salute:

That's what I do for about 2/3 of my games. When I explained that the problem was on the DRM side and steps I have done trying to find a solution I have been censored on the forum.

So.. we are clearly not allowed to explain what happens when DRM goes bad.

[WarlordATF]

I was planning to buy SH5 just to support the franchise, but the DRM is the final nail in the coffin for me. I prefer the fleetboats anyway so i'll stick with SH4 and give my money to another game company that does not use invasive DRM methods.

[Rosencrantz]

Neal,


Can you give us some info about how many people there was in Subsim when SHIII was released? 30 000+?

You know it better, but I assume most of the guys here have somekind of connection with SH serie, plus maybe few DW-Only fellows. That's because SH is probably the best know sub simulation in the world.

So, I think, if there was let's say 30 000 members here, and let's assume most of them actually bought the III right after it was release, then those men (and ladys) actually presented about 30+ percent of SHIII sold within first 18 months after release. Or am I missing something? :hmmm:


Greetings,
-RC-

[jerm138]

That's what I do for about 2/3 of my games. When I explained that the problem was on the DRM side and steps I have done trying to find a solution I have been censored on the forum.

So.. we are clearly not allowed to explain what happens when DRM goes bad.

As I understand it... there is nothing wrong with reporting bad experiences with DRM, but talking about using a "crack" for a game is strictly prohibited, and THAT is why you're being censored. It doesn't matter if you have a legal copy on your shelf... if you have an illegal copy in your computer, you can't talk about it here.

[Blackhawk1006]

My internet quite regularly loses connection for a few seconds, this means I'll have no hope in hell of playing this game without any problems.

So I will not be buying it until it is removed, I mean, why couldn't they just use something like Steam? It's easier.

[Reece]

IIRC it's Trenken who made the claim that DRM is embedded so deep in the game code that it could take months and heavy reprogramming to remove it.

Either it's not true and the system will most likely be cracked very fast (like GTA IV).

Or it's true and Ubi won't bother patching that mess to remove the DRM, so when they decide to discontinue support, the game dies.That's what worries me, if I enjoyed it as much as SH3 that could be up to 10 years, I will not purchase it in the fear that after all the modding support will later be dropped and the game will become useless!:-?

[SubV]

Maybe if they could make some sort of "time-bomb" release... So that the pirated copy works without issue, then a week later, the whole system locks up. By that time, enough people would have it on their computer to really make an impact, especially when it hits the news that "thousands of computers have been rendered useless when people used a pirated version of this program"
Agreed. But let's not forget that every protection system is a piece of code, made by people, and may contain some errors. Imagine a situation when protection system wrongly identifies you as one of illegal users, resulting in locking up your PC and destroying a bunch of your private data. Soon after such event happens, they'll lose their reputation -- forever.

[jerm138]

Agreed. But let's not forget that every protection system is a piece of code, made by people, and may contain some errors. Imagine a situation when protection system wrongly identifies you as one of illegal users, resulting in locking up your PC and destroying a bunch of your private data. Soon after such event happens, they'll lose their reputation -- forever.

Only the "illegal" copies released covertly on pirate sites would contain the virus... it wouldn't be in the real version.

Doesn't matter... it's all hypothetical anyway and would still be highly illegal, so I doubt any company would take that risk.

[thehiredgun]

That's it for me with SH5, I will stick to playing the best one SH3 GWX3.0. It's not fair what they are doing to the game. I don't like to play online. This way with SH3 I can play when I want & with the subs I want. I don't have to follow any ones rules.

[THE_MASK]

The more i look into needing servers to run single player games the more i dont like it .
http://www.ea.com/2/service-updates

[KL-alfman]

The more i look into needing servers to run single player games the more i dont like it .
http://www.ea.com/2/service-updates


that' incredible!! :down:


Despite some people’s perception, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work involved with keeping these older games up and running. We would rather our hard-working engineering and IT staff focus on keeping a positive experience for the other 99% of customers playing our more popular games. These decisions to retire games is never easy. The EA development teams and operational staff pour their hearts into these games almost as much as the customers playing them and it is hard to see one retired. We hope you have gotten many hours of enjoyment out of the games and we appreciate your ongoing patronage.

[Hitman]

I hope not, though, or Silent Hunter is dead :dead:

As far as me (And all others for whom the DRM is a no-no) concerns, it's already dead :nope:

[Ragtag]

Cancelled several pre-orders of Ubisoft games for PC including splinter cell. I'm not buying any game with a DRM like this. Ubisoft has crossed the line and i'm tired of being pissed on as a PC gamer by Ubi. We are the ones that's being punished and i don't like to pay for a punishment. I'm not into S&M :P

In cancelling my orders i wrote that the reason was the new DRM from ubisoft. If everyone that cancels their orders give this reason, maybe the shops will take notice and tell Ubisoft about it.

[GOZO]

Pity. My interrest plunged beyond crush depth....................:shifty:

/Gozo

[jerm138]

The more i look into needing servers to run single player games the more i dont like it .
http://www.ea.com/2/service-updates

Wow... that's a lot of games!

When they say they're shutting down the servers, is it just the online multiplayer servers, or is it a DRM scheme like we're worried about with SH5?

In other words, are the people who own the games on that list going to be able to continue to play them without online servers, or are they just garbage now?

There are a lot of not-so-old titles on there.

We would rather our hard-working engineering and IT staff focus on keeping a positive experience for the other 99% of customers playing our more popular games.

That doesn't sound promising...

[Schultzy]

I have to admit, I haven't read all the DRM stuff, but from what I have seen and heard, I take it, it's going to be similar to the Neoqb system for Rise of Flight?
If so, then I'll be waiting til (if/when) they remove it.

[GREY WOLF 3]

Seems that all gaming companies treat their customers as second class citizens....

Star Trek Online...(release day is 2 days away but for those who pre-ordered there is a headtsart period). this is the current message when you try to get online....

We’re sorry but the game servers are full and there is a queue to start playing. Your queue position is 128 out of 729

When this message disappears you will be logged in
:har::har::har::har:

[It762]

That is also what i hate if you have to connect to some *** online service.... They shut it down youre screwed...

And if people would build their own service to be independent (bnetd for diablo) they are being sued so they try never again.

They long term plus for the companies is that you HAVE to buy the new version even if you dont want it :)

Gone are the times where you pull out your old singleplayer game to have it run in a dosbox ... today you will just get "404 - http request failed - maybe the auth server is down?" NOOOO it has been shutdown :)

[Robsoie]

Though at the announcement of SH5 i was a bit interested, not having bought SH3 or SH4, but now that UBi strategy is revealed, those are the kind of time i am happy to be a retro gamer, so old school subsims like SH1/AOD/Sub Command continue to give me my stealth sea hunting needs without needing absolutely modern visuals.
Because the age of drm and other kind of control from a publisher over a product you own , having bought (and not rent) with your money is morally ugly.

Punishing a legit customers with those drm while the pirates will never have to deal with such pieces of publisher control is just plain wrong whatever the publisher claim about it.

So to the original question, yes the DRM affects my purchases because i refuse to buy anything that use such process, i am not interested by paying for being constantly controlled like if i did something bad.

[Buckwarrens]

DRM
What a slap in the face, they must know how this is coming across to their
loyal customers. It does amount to a lease agreement, given the track record
of their new releases, I will wait until DRM is no longer needed.
:down:

[dogboat]

D,R,M. One way to kill off a game!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well done Ubisoft.:|\\:damn:

[longam]

Thats what they said about music DRM, but they still log on itunes and purchase.

[Letum]

Thats what they said about music DRM, but they still log on itunes and purchase.

To be fair, there are many forms of music DRM that died a death.

ed: internets tells me that iTunes is now DRM free as well.

[subsimlee]

Neal Stevens;1254113]Yes, that is possible. The uproar and bad word-of-mouth by a small percentage could influence a much larger population.

I hope not, though, or Silent Hunter is dead :dead:

Respectfully Neal,
You're saying that if we as a small percentage could influence a much larger Ubi gaming population over the DRM uproar, Silent Hunter might be dead. That would also mean that all Ubi's future DRM contolled games would be in jeopardy: therefore it might be reasonable to expect the DRM is more at risk of death IMHO. ( DRM-R.I.P. )

[Schultz]

Let me say that, people in this days preffer the pirate version because they don't need to use money because it's free, if the games are a little cheaper maybe there is a chance that more people will buy games, usually I buy games to suport the gaming industry, but I can't buy them all.

[melendir]

I hate the idea of must be connected to be able to play SH5
I hope it would need only one online activation.

Otherwise we are not able to play where we want. when we want.
And someday in the future when there is no such thing as Ubisoft we are not able to play our bought game at all.

Sucks! :down:

[Schultz]

Ubi said that if you have 100 Pc's you can install sh5 on all of them , and also you can enter with your account from what PC you like,this sistem is allmost like at Gta4

[Jimbuna]

My overwhelming concern is the stability and reliability of said Ubi server.

I've always been cautious about putting all my eggs in one basket.

Now if there were an option to play offline I'm confident that would be an acceptable 'half way house' for a lot of people here http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

[Schultz]

They could activate the game on a PC with internet, and at home they can play online, my fear is that even with this sistem, the "pirates" will always find a way to make it work.My idea was that ubi to make a database of every cd-key sold and if isn't in that database it can't play, or every game when purchased will have a special code, you insert it on Ubi server then they will give you the cd-key, and they must have a data base of that special code.

[THE_MASK]

My overwhelming concern is the stability and reliability of said Ubi server.

I've always been cautious about putting all my eggs in one basket.

Now if there were an option to play offline I'm confident that would be an acceptable 'half way house' for a lot of people here http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gifAnd what happens down the track when Ubi decide not to support SH5 anymore and close the servers (real reason is so you cannot play SH5 anymore and have to buy SH6) .

[Jimbuna]

And what happens down the track when Ubi decide not to support SH5 anymore and close the servers (real reason is so you cannot play SH5 anymore and have to buy SH6) .

Hence my use of the term 'reliabiliy' and the analogy of having all your eggs in one basket.

[Panser]

I voted that I would wait for the DRM to be removed, though I am not actually inherently against DRM. It is reasonable to expect Ubi to want to protect their investment in funding the development of this game. To expect them to remove all DRM on a premium product is naive in the extreme, but I am hoping that they will forgo the persistent internet necessity as that is both intrusive and controlling beyond reason.

However, my real purchasing decision will be based upon the final quality of the game, which is looking increasingly suspect. All the inclusion of the OSP system will do is stop me from buying the game if it is any good.

If the game turns out to be a stinker, I won't be buying it regardless of the DRM used.

[Don_D_Dwain]

Hello,
Thank you for allowing me to reply. I purchased a game from THQ, and you need an online account to play this game (Company of Heroes). Well I did not save my account information, and my system crashed. In short, I would have to get this information from THQ (A HASSLE), or BUY the game AGAIN! Sorry UBI soft, I like your products, but I WILL NOT make this mistake again. I BUY IT, IT BELONGS TO ME, if your publishers are THAT GREEDY, then THEY can KEEP YOUR GAME.

[609_Avatar]

Hello,
Thank you for allowing me to reply. I purchased a game from THQ, and you need an online account to play this game (Company of Heroes). Well I did not save my account information, and my system crashed. In short, I would have to get this information from THQ (A HASSLE), or BUY the game AGAIN! Sorry UBI soft, I like your products, but I WILL NOT make this mistake again. I BUY IT, IT BELONGS TO ME, if your publishers are THAT GREEDY, then THEY can KEEP YOUR GAME.

This is totally wrong. CoH does not require you to be online to play, you have to connect online only if you don't want to put in your DVD in your drive. So when their servers are down you just pop the disc in and you're good to go. You can also install it on many computers but only play on one at a time. They did it as a "convenience" and for DMR a bit also I'm sure.

[THE_MASK]

UPLAY
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8121060208/m/9241018828
QUOTE I've been unable to access U-play for weeks now. I know a lot of people have the same issue where you get the message "Ubisoft Servers are unavailable at this time. Please try connecting later..."
I am wondering has any one of you guys ever gotten U-play to work again? If so, could you please be a sport and tell me - HOW!?

[KL-alfman]

when SH5 starts all servers are up to the max only too fond to fulfil customers' wishes. or did you think otherwise?

[Reece]

UPLAY
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8121060208/m/9241018828
QUOTE I've been unable to access U-play for weeks now. I know a lot of people have the same issue where you get the message "Ubisoft Servers are unavailable at this time. Please try connecting later..."
I am wondering has any one of you guys ever gotten U-play to work again? If so, could you please be a sport and tell me - HOW!?I haven't been able to login to the UBI forum for around 2 years now, all I get is an error message, if I try to send a message to the webmaster you have to login of course and I can only try once a day!!:x I eventually tried Ubisoft support, but they responded that support was for games only, I would have to contact the webmaster!!:damn: Still can't login to this day, I tried to register as a new member but only one instance of your email is allowed!:doh::-? Good old Ubisoft service!!:down:

[TarJak]

I haven't been able to login to the UBI forum for around 2 years now, all I get is an error message, if I try to send a message to the webmaster you have to login of course and I can only try once a day!!:x I eventually tried Ubisoft support, but they responded that support was for games only, I would have to contact the webmaster!!:damn: Still can't login to this day, I tried to register as a new member but only one instance of your email is allowed!:doh::-? Good old Ubisoft service!!:down:
So make a new gmail account and use it for spam collection...:D

[Reece]

So make a new gmail account and use it for spam collection...:DAbout the size of it, spam/UBI, same diff!!:DL

[Funkyjazz]

What can i say whats not been said yet...
Ill tell them my pincode but they dont get my saved games!
The next step beyond DRM? Well, just go to a special UBI centre to play the game? By entrance there is a full DNA scan which indentify you as a memeber of planet earth. Then you can lease time to play a UBI game :damn:
Even better: why dont they ask for a complete image of the PC? Hell...even better: place my own PC at their UBI centre:yeah:. This world is going nuts...just wanna play a game...

UBI..move on:down: DRM..pffff....

[tonschk]

I haven't been able to login to the UBI forum for around 2 years now, all I get is an error message, if I try to send a message to the webmaster you have to login of course and I can only try once a day!!:x I eventually tried Ubisoft support, but they responded that support was for games only, I would have to contact the webmaster!!:damn: Still can't login to this day, I tried to register as a new member but only one instance of your email is allowed!:doh::-? Good old Ubisoft service!!:down:

many months ago i was with the same problem , fortunately was a specific thread at subsim to post and contact with a moderator of the ubisoft website and in this way the moderator was able to sort out the problem that many people were unable to login the ubisoft website , the ubisoft moderator was working out the problem of everyone posting in that specific error login ubisoft forum problem thread at subsim , that moderator is not working animore at the ubi forum as far as i know

[JScones]

The other aspect that I am not sure has been raised here yet is the likelihood of password phishing. This has been raised on the Ubi forum for another upcoming game I've been watching and Ubi stated that if your account gets hijacked, then they will fix it.

But I wonder how long that would take? :hmmm:

And password resets?

Minor things that you, as the player, should take responsibility for, but still, as they are a requirement of OSP/DRM, a further embuggerance nonetheless.

[Darkbluesky]

Posted that in UBI forums, but I wanted also to say it here.

Definately I will do not buy it (and I wanted it so much...), at least until DRM is removed. Why?

At side of the already commented, doubtfull usefulness of that method versus piracy and the inconveniences for the legal user, there is some very important points, some has been already commented here.

Ubi is lying to us, simply as that. They say "buy it" when in fact what they are doing is a simple "rent it", for the same price. Join to wagon of quick use and throw away.

That is the victory of fast money versus quality and respect for well done work (either technical and management/service).

You still play SH3 released 5 years ago, and probably you still will do, you have your choice and taste, but...how many time do you think ubi is going to keep SH5 in the servers? How many support/money will dedicate ubi to it?

What do you think if the, now very outdated, The Secret of Monkey Island (the floppy/CD version. Don't think about the remake: it is only a random fact that you can't count on it, don't be fooled) would have been released at the time with that type of protection (let's imagine it was possible at the time)? I still play it, and enjoy, and show it to the younger people who discover its greatness and enjoy it too... Of course that does not fit with a fast earnings politics of today, if they had to keep servers for a... 20 (!!) years old game. Sure.

Do I need to remember here which are the criteria of ubi and other big companies? Are they known for sacrifice money and time for respect and quality of service for a niche and old product (it will be in very few years) or maybe they are better known for sacrifice their own children if they don't serve them anymore? I think everybody knows the answer.

Don't get fooled. For the companies today is today, and tomorrow nobody knows. The commitments of yesterday are the excuses of today to justify the change of criteria... Even if management swears that it will stay forever, that means nothing. I work on a very big company. I know.

They are telling us "Don't love it", "Don't keep it", "Don't dream about how well you loved it and play it again", "just use and drop it and buy to us a new one in 2 years".

Remember, you will not drop the game when you will be tired of it (if ever), you will drop it when UBI says to you to drop it. Does it fit for you?

I don't know if you see it, but imo that favors the bad quality of the games, because they are done for a system of fast use and replace. It is just the opposite of the politics of Maddox games (developer of IL2 and Storm of War). Both very long run games (SOW is just about to born, but with the same spirit of longevity).

Moreover if that system is succesful that gives the companies the power to control gaming habits and MODS of games. Do you see it? I am not referring only to the fact if they accept modded games in the authentification server (they can do it, though). I am referring that even if they allow them, they can control when to drop a game (or increase the 'server down' ratio in favor of other new games they want to promote...), and by controlling the life/server-problems of a game, they can control the amount people playing, hence the mods people will do (who wants to learn to mod a game and do it -i.e. gfx models/textures demand more time to do in recent games, they are more detailed- if the life of the game is short or bad quality, so few people will be still playing it?).

Please, don't get fooled. The big companies love to control the cake, and with that system they are winning much more than only some theoretical control over piracy. Piracy is only the excuse to implement it.

Summarizing, they ask me to pay for a purchase that it is not.

They ask me to pay for allow them to shape my gaming habits.

They ask me to pay for restricting my freedom.

Cheers

[Platapus]

Ubi is lying to us, simply as that. They say "buy it" when in fact what they are doing is a simple "rent it", for the same price.

Ubi is not lying to anyone. When they say "buy it" they mean exactly what other game (and other software developers) mean - Buy a license to use the software. The fact that the majority of customers assume this means that they are buying the software is not Ubi's fault as they explain it, as do other software developers, in the licensing documentation... that few read.

That is the victory of fast money versus quality and respect for well done work (either technical and management/service).

You still play SH3 released 5 years ago, and probably you still will do, you have your choice and taste, but...how many time do you think ubi is going to keep SH5 in the servers? How many support/money will dedicate ubi to it?

When it becomes unprofitable from Ubi's viewpoint, they will stop hosting the servers and issue a patch removing that requirement from the game. Ubi wants to make sure that in the first few years after release that they can make it more difficult to hack the game. That's the time period when they expect to make the majority of their sales. I am sure there are some well paid decision makers at Ubi who have plotted out the exact moment when the costs of this form of DRM exceed the benefits. Once that happens, Ubi will cut their costs and drop the servers.

Now do you honestly believe that when this happens that Ubi will not issue a patch? What company would decide to prevent all past customers from using their product? None.

Don't get fooled. For the companies today is today, and tomorrow nobody knows. The commitments of yesterday are the excuses of today to justify the change of criteria

If this were true, why would a game developer issue patches? They already have your money and new customers won't know the game needs a patch.... But companies do issue patches and offer them for free, when it was not free to code the patch.

I don't like this constant connection aspect either, but I think you are over dramatizing this a little bit.

[Kapitanleutnant]

If this were true, why would a game developer issue patches? They already have your money and new customers won't know the game needs a patch.... But companies do issue patches and offer them for free
Yeah exactly, like when Ubisoft patched SH4 to fix all the bu- oh wait no, now that I think about it they didn't....

(not that I disagree with what you're saying - they probably will patch out the net connection requirement eventually. But nobody can deny that Ubi's track record of post-release support is atrocious.)

[Darkbluesky]

I appreciate your remarks, but, in a general way, I disagree.

Ubi is not lying to anyone. When they say "buy it" they mean exactly what other game (and other software developers) mean - Buy a license to use the software. The fact that the majority of customers assume this means that they are buying the software is not Ubi's fault as they explain it, as do other software developers, in the licensing documentation... that few read.

Disagree. There is an evident (and legal) difference between going to cinema to see a movie and to buy a DVD of that movie.

When it becomes unprofitable from Ubi's viewpoint, they will stop hosting the servers and issue a patch removing that requirement from the game. Ubi wants to make sure that in the first few years after release that they can make it more difficult to hack the game. That's the time period when they expect to make the majority of their sales. I am sure there are some well paid decision makers at Ubi who have plotted out the exact moment when the costs of this form of DRM exceed the benefits. Once that happens, Ubi will cut their costs and drop the servers.

Sure, I think also that it is likely that Ubi releases a patch to drop DRM, later, because, as in "fast money industry" (just as cinema exhibition today), it is the first "times" when they do most of the money.

But as I don't know what ubi thinks, I wanted to talk about what means the current system/announce. We will see in the future if the action of Ubi is what we expect/wish or not.

Personally I have seen too much games to disappear from the shops with no reedition even in budget class (neither support, i.e. patches) after even only 2-3 years, to have confidence on the sensibility of big companies... The world is full of examples.

For example, it could be simply even cheaper not to release any patch at all when they unplug the servers...but that is speculation

Anyway, if they release a patch at the end of life (not in 6 months, really at the end of life), that doesn't avoid at all what I said at the end of my post about the eventual control of market.

Now do you honestly believe that when this happens that Ubi will not issue a patch? What company would decide to prevent all past customers from using their product? None.

Do you believe they'll do? I don't know today, but I am closer to answer "almost all" than "none", based on experience.
The DRM is relatively recent, so the ability to play old games currently is mainly limited to soft/hardware compatibility, no direct action from the publisher. Even with that, there are a lot of games that because of missing patches from developers they are no more usable or with limitations.

So if that happens to non-DRM games, as today I can't suppose that Ubi will be better than that for the current DRM games.
Of course it could be, but from the info of today, I have to doubt.

Almost all the production of entertainment today is fast usage, films, music, games, etc. The companies know that and they aim to the day, they don't invest too much for allowing people to recover old products; they sell to them new products, there lies the big profit, in the new products. All companies in all sectors have learned that. But we will see...

If this were true, why would a game developer issue patches? They already have your money and new customers won't know the game needs a patch.... But companies do issue patches and offer them for free, when it was not free to code the patch.

Really, that remembers me that except for long run developers (as Maddox games) the patches for recent games has been less and less extended in time than in older games. Look for SH4, or COD2, COD4, etc they issued patches meanwhile it was relatively rentable for the publisher (most of the time 1st year of life and sometimes part of the 2nd, and even only first few months sometimes).

According to that I conclude that they don't think at all to make patches about a game whose income is below the publisher's profit vs patch_development_cost criteria. Maybe some years ago it was a little better, but no more imo. The tendence of market has changed quite a lot.

Of course there is some niche where they have done something different, but it is not representative of the action line of big enterprises when they aim to the mainstream market, and SH5 is aimed to be more mainstream, according to what was reported by people who talked with developers/editors...

I don't like this constant connection aspect either, but I think you are over dramatizing this a little bit.

Well, maybe my words sound a bit "dramatic", but I have tried to show here a real perspective of things. They could or could not become real in the near future.

If I have exaggerated I could have done it in respect to the real future when it comes, but not in respect to what the DRM system means, I think.

If it will be applied in a respectul way or not, we will see, that is the application of the system, not the system itself.

If later Ubi an others behave in a kind, friendly and respectful way, (and drop DRM) then I'll be glad (and buy then SH5).

As you see, comments others than these referring to the potential of the current situation, (so about what the future will bring) are subjective and based on experience, so no offence, it is nice to exchange points of view :03:

[Semtex]

"Makes no difference to me"

i prepurchase game bcuz i love SH III and SHV flooding interior. and diesels running and and that cost me only 40 bucks :yeah:

[Schultz]

Come on let's be optimistic, pesimism is contageus.

[Darkbluesky]

Come on let's be optimistic, pesimism is contageus.

Agree. Although generally I use to look for the dangers, and what it seems to me more probable (to be ready), I still wish Ubi will surprise us and drop DRM in 6 months or so. After all , as Platapus says it could make sense. Hope Ubi listen.

[Butzis]

Sorry Ubisoft´s people but you dont play Big Brother with me.
Resistencia y hasta la Victoria Siempre Kamaraden !
Saludos y gute Jagd !

[Funkyjazz]

(For the understanding: im against DRM because UBI cant convince me that they wont install snitch programs onto a PC).

Ive got 3 Hd's.

1 split in partitions = XP, Mail, OpenOffice ect
2 split in partitions = XP, FS9, FSX
3 split in partitions = XP, games.

When i install a DRM game (SH5) on a HD with XP as being a 3rd multiboot drive, doing nothing else with the boot than play the DRM game (SH5), UBI can install lots of **** on that drive, i dont care. They are not able to look at the rest of my system = everyting on drive 1&2. The only data to them available is my progress and time of play. Is that correct?

[Captain Wreckless]

Play ends in '43? Well that, DRM and only Type VII boats, I think I'll pass. :damn:

CW :arrgh!:

[Captain Wreckless]

I know a good way of limiting piracy - release well polished games with good manuals not avaliable as PDF plus eventually some serial numbers etc or words from certain pages of manual to be entered before the game. Like the old days. Like 688 Attack Sub. Good game, great manual, great lot of info on subs.

Action Stations was that way. It asked for whatever word in the so and so paragraph on this and that page.

CW :arrgh!:

[SubSim Skipper]

Hi guys i am new to SubSim I actually played Silent hunter III and Silent Hunter IV but never knew about this place or all the great Mods available, I learned about it from the Silent Hunter V face book page from a guy named John Hamm who I believe is a member here who was posting about the negative aspects of Silent Hunter V. Though I must say I had no idea about the internet connection or the lack of boats available in Silent Hunter V if he had not posted those things on the facebook page. And I certainly would not know about this great forum.

All that being said now that I have been made aware of the lack of boats and the short campaign and worst of all the having to be connected to the internet to play the game I will not be buying this game!!

[Platapus]

Action Stations was that way. It asked for whatever word in the so and so paragraph on this and that page.

CW :arrgh!:

That was an awesome game! Although it was rough on my 386 sx it was fun and a great CIC simulator.

[Overboard]

Im sorry" but no i will not by this game.
Im tired of playing with subs anyway

[fromhell]

i am buying it DRM or what ever its called, and on line connection.
hell, im on the net every day for quite awhile anyway.:hmmm:
it looks very good, and i think for under £30 well worth the go!:yeah:

[Captain Wreckless]

That was an awesome game! Although it was rough on my 386 sx it was fun and a great CIC simulator.

Sure was and I still have my copy. I've even talked with the designer at one time. He and I served on the same aircraft carrier, though I never met him as I had left by the time he reported onboard.

And now back to the regularly scheduled program.

CW :arrgh!:

[piri_reis]

Nope, a single player game with DRM/OSP scheme that needs to be always online, for me to play MY game, will not get my money.

[rascal101]

Why would you purchase a game that required Permanent Online connection?

Why would you do this?
What is the justification?

We are interested to know

List your answers below

Answer A)
Answer B)
Answer C)

Because no one else on this forum or any other games related forum that I have visited in the past month can think of a reason why - so we're all waiting.

Let me refrase that - "
remotsuc eht rof egatnavds on si ereht'
roughly translated that means
'There is no advantage for the customer'

If you think there is, or could be an advantage for the customer please state the advantages below

You will be breaking new gound - we want to hear you

Regards

R
As it seems that a permanment online connection is required to play SH5 will it affect your decision to buy (sorry lease)?

[Brag]

There is no advantage or benefit for the customer. DRM/OSP sucks socks, game sinks.

[piri_reis]

The advantage they are pitching is saving to the servers and being able to play from whichever computer you have connected.
It's so funny.. Like we are newborn babies, never got in touch with a Personal Computer with its own hard drive. Never saved our work to C: or MyDocs... Like we still live in the dumb Terminal days of the computer world.

Today, everybody has gigabytes/terabytes on multiple hard disks, and usb sticks to backup or carry their savegames wherever they want!

This OSP scheme has absolutely Zero advantage to the customer experience. People at UBI just need to use their brain and think what they are offering here. :down:

[ACR]

i am personally that happy with sh3 and gwx gold that i have much much time to wait and see. i e.g. never bought sh4 when i saw that it did not had major improvements regarding to sh3 with the best mods- the same i will do with sh5.

i think that it will take some patching and modding time to blast out sh3 + gwx gold- this time i will use sh3 and wait to see if the policy of ubisoft continues.

personally i think that having a must to have an internet connection ( even when nearly everybody has...) is the end for selling it as a standalone product and also the beginning of trying to locate personal data of the customers. i bet you will have to register with your name email etc... you will receive emails from ubisoft, they may have a way to "spy" your personal data on the computer whe you have to be connected all the time.

well, no way gentlemen from ubisoft. you forget that you will make a big financial disaster when nobody buys it and that you live from the payments of the enduser. not every user is that stupid, not only silly kids are buying this game!

i say again- the modders gave us with sh3 that fantastic joy of gaming that nobody is really in rush to buy sh5. lets take this power of us all and give ubisoft a big sign that not only they make the rules.

[WolfgangLuth]

The poll is closed? Oh dear, I was rather hoping to vote. If it means anything, I would have voted for the general consensus view of "Wait for UBI to remove the online DRM" option before buying, making it read 762.

What to add? Well, I hope you like my prediction on what is actually going to happen a week or so before SH-V finally goes gold (release). My prediction is that Ubisoft will make a public statement along the lines of "Dear valued customers, we have looked at our options and decided to not go ahead with our proposed DRM scheme and are currently looking at other options. We apologize for any inconvenience and as a gesture of goodwill we have decided to remove all copy protection for our valued customers."

This "surprise" turnaround at the last minute will make Ubi look like the "heroic saviors of the games industry and enterprising pioneers of freedom". The feeling of relief, euphoric good vibrations it would create... I think would probably be enough to cause quite a major spike in sales. A real buying bonanza, if you will. In my opinion it would create chatter on the gaming forums about how "great and wonderful" Ubisoft are... creating even more spontaneous online sales on the spur-of-the-moment they wouldn't have normally got otherwise.

My gut feeling tells me there was never any online DRM scheme being prepared and there never was. Ubisoft lied. There are no Ubisoft DRM/OSP servers ready to go live in March, they never existed. It's all just clever marketing. Now, I wouldn't go as far as to call it a marketing "scam" because it's not as if the customer is being deprived of anything (aside from our sanity?). On the whole I tend to look down on these kind of underhand marketing tactics, but at the same time one can't help admiring them for ingenuity. The end may very well justify the means in this sort of case. Harmless (if somewhat devilish) marketing fun and a few laughs at the customers expense (oh, and a few extra sales).

If I'm wrong... then the only other explanation (in my humble opinion) is that someone at Ubisoft *wants* the company to go bankrupt. Perhaps someone in the company would benefit from that happening? Well, if that's what happens, then Columbo should have a trail to follow to find the culprit.

Oh.... just one more thing... :) This is just a theory, of course. Allegedly. Let's see if I'm right by release day. Stay optimistic, shipmates! :)

[THE_MASK]

The poll is closed? Oh dear, I was rather hoping to vote. If it means anything, I would have voted for the general consensus view of "Wait for UBI to remove the online DRM" option before buying, making it read 762.

What to add? Well, I hope you like my prediction on what is actually going to happen a week or so before SH-V finally goes gold (release). My prediction is that Ubisoft will make a public statement along the lines of "Dear valued customers, we have looked at our options and decided to not go ahead with our proposed DRM scheme and are currently looking at other options. We apologize for any inconvenience and as a gesture of goodwill we have decided to remove all copy protection for our valued customers."

This "surprise" turnaround at the last minute will make Ubi look like the "heroic saviors of the games industry and enterprising pioneers of freedom". The feeling of relief, euphoric good vibrations it would create... I think would probably be enough to cause quite a major spike in sales. A real buying bonanza, if you will. In my opinion it would create chatter on the gaming forums about how "great and wonderful" Ubisoft are... creating even more spontaneous online sales on the spur-of-the-moment they wouldn't have normally got otherwise.

My gut feeling tells me there was never any online DRM scheme being prepared and there never was. Ubisoft lied. There are no Ubisoft DRM/OSP servers ready to go live in March, they never existed. It's all just clever marketing. Now, I wouldn't go as far as to call it a marketing "scam" because it's not as if the customer is being deprived of anything (aside from our sanity?). On the whole I tend to look down on these kind of underhand marketing tactics, but at the same time one can't help admiring them for ingenuity. The end may very well justify the means in this sort of case. Harmless (if somewhat devilish) marketing fun and a few laughs at the customers expense (oh, and a few extra sales).

If I'm wrong... then the only other explanation (in my humble opinion) is that someone at Ubisoft *wants* the company to go bankrupt. Perhaps someone in the company would benefit from that happening? Well, if that's what happens, then Columbo should have a trail to follow to find the culprit.

Oh.... just one more thing... :) This is just a theory, of course. Allegedly. Let's see if I'm right by release day. Stay optimistic, shipmates! :)
your not sober are you .

[Highbury]

My prediction is that Ubisoft will make a public statement along the lines of "Dear valued customers, we have looked at our options and decided to not go ahead with our proposed DRM scheme and are currently looking at other options. We apologize for any inconvenience and as a gesture of goodwill we have decided to remove all copy protection for our valued customers."

:har:

[Armistead]

I've never been into gaming except for SH4 and one other. I'm certainly gonna wait.

But what happens if anything if you pause the game and alt/tab out. I may alt out and do other stuff online for an hour, or just check email...Will this effect the connection to UBI for any reason?

Boy, the first time the server crashes, this board is gonna be a riot.

[GermanGS]

I'm going to get the game with or without DRM and support the series.:rock:

[scrag]

I think it is bad practice to do this (including STEAM). I will not wate my money on something I can not play in a stand alone configuration. I serve on subs and find this rather amusing.

[TarJak]

I think it is bad practice to do this (including STEAM). I will not wate my money on something I can not play in a stand alone configuration. I serve on subs and find this rather amusing.
I imagine it will be tough to convice your skipper to keep surfacing and using the comms bandwidth so you can play SHV during your off duty hours. Unless of course he is a SHV nut as well.:D

[Cobber]

I won't purchase anything that requires online connections to play. A part from the fact that I disagree with the concept what about people who live or work in remote locations. Never assume that everyone has internet access, even in this day and age. Let us say that a serving submariner has the game installed on his personal laptop at sea, there's no internet connection underwater. DRM :down:

[MasterCaine]

lmao. Ubisoft now has their customers by the balls. This now confirms what we have known all along about Ubisoft- they are a sh*tty company. When they go bankrupt and shut down their servers, SH5 players will be screwed. I absolutely will not be buying SH5. Enough is enough. Crash and burn, Ubisoft, crash and burn. :nope:

[Sandman_28054]

As it seems that a permanment online connection is required to play SH5 will it affect your decision to buy (sorry lease)?

I wish I seen this earlier, I just ordered mine last week.

Perhaps when it arrives, I'll just stick on the shelf with all my C&C Generals games as well.

This just sucks.

[Undefined]

No Silent Hunter V for me then!

I am in a band and i spend most of my day out in my studio. In there we have sloppy Wifi connection wich is slow and always disconnects. I can manage to surf in the internet but i am not going to be able to play SHV there.

Thanks UBI! I really hope now that the game sucks so that i will not miss alot.

[mikeydredd]

I have just been on the Ubisoft SHV forums and have read about the need for a permanent internet connection needed to play!!!. Even in single player mode!!!!! And your save games aren't yours - they keep them!!!!! And you can't re-sell the game at any time because it would be useless to any body else!!!!!

Quite simple really. Pirates will pirate - it's what they do.

Honest customers will buy - it's what they do.

If you confuse one for the other you then have this kind of chaos.

I will NOT buy SHV as long as it needs a permanent online connection. If they get rid of this I will buy it on the day of release.

If we all stick to our guns they will have to re-think. It is up to us people.


Have a nice day :arrgh!:

[tater]

Sad that the skipper likely doesn't have to concern himself with enemy ships zig-zagging, or broaching the boat, but WILL have to concern himself with the ubi server status.

[mikeydredd]

Well that has clinched it for me.

My connection has just gone down TWICE trying to get back on this forum. And Ubisoft expect me to shackle myself to this abortion. They really are taking the piss.

Ubisoft you can stick this where the sun very obviously don't shine.

I'm off to the valhalla of GWX.

So long suckers.

Dredd out :arrgh!:

[Garion]

I do feel for the devs as it's the publisher that decides what type of DRM (if any) is used in a product. But it's the Publishers Draconian DRM thats stopping me buying this on release nothing else. I can even live, grudgingly with the 1943 termination and the single U-Boat type.

Even if SH5 was the bees knees in subsims with Manual targeting, working heads (that really flush), Wolfpacks and accurate to the nth degree I still would not buy it with it's present DRM.

I refuse to pay for a game that I cannot use when I want too, that is dependant on a remote security system that may or may not deem me worthy of playing and that I have to stay connected to teh internets during play.

So I will vote with my wallet and wait to see if the DRM is removed in future and in truth will probably wait a few years on the Gold Edition.

So if the devs are going without food etc, blame Ubisoft. I dont think its fair to guilt trip a potential customer into buying a product with this type of DRM just to keep this particular franchise alive. It sends the wrong message to Ubisoft who will see the sales as an acceptance of their DRM policy and is to me at least a tad shortsighted.

Just my 2p worth

Cheers

Garion

[motthehoople]

That's it for me too. Just cancelled my advance order of SH5 with Amazon.

[lobomarinho]

It is impressive how stupid UBI Soft can be.

After reading all this forum I have decided no to purchase SH5 with DRM.

I enjoy my privacy and to have to be connected to the internet to play SH5 is a no go alternative for me.

It seems that GWX is going to be my continued favourite.

[Letum]

That's it for me too. Just cancelled my advance order of SH5 with Amazon.

Welcome to the forum and to the SHV sit-out club.

[Schultz]

I can't understand what happens if you are connected to there server, it won't affect your privacy, even Gta 4 needs to be logged in GFWL and no one said anything.

[Rip]

I can't understand what happens if you are connected to there server, it won't affect your privacy, even Gta 4 needs to be logged in GFWL and no one said anything.

But you don't have to use GFWL for GTA that is your choice. I play all the GTA games routinely and don't need to be connected to the internet at all.

GFWL is in itself intended to be used "online" that is what the Live is for. As such many people myself included choose not to ever install it. The only game client I use is Steam and it has an offline option for those times following a hurricane or the like when my connection isn't available.

[The Enigma]

I can't understand what happens if you are connected to there server, it won't affect your privacy.....

It's up to you if you feel your privacy has been compromised or not.
Everybody has it's own limit when the privacy line is crossed or not.

However, there is no guarantee what UBI will record from you while connecting to their servers.

History has proven that companies aren't too shy in gathering all kind of stuff about you, despite all the promises of them to not abuse your privacy.

[Lord Biceps]

History has proven that companies aren't too shy in gathering all kind of stuff about you, despite all the promises of them to not abuse your privacy.

The usual promise is that they won't pass on the information to "third parties", whatever that means.

[Méo]

It's up to you if you feel your privacy has been compromised or not.
Everybody has it's own limit when the privacy line is crossed or not.

However, there is no guarantee what UBI will record from you while connecting to their servers.

History has proven that companies aren't too shy in gathering all kind of stuff about you, despite all the promises of them to not abuse your privacy.

Good post. :up:

Although I'm not going to speak here about what is my conception of privacy, I don't want to start another drama (i.e. would probably be off-topic).

The usual promise is that they won't pass on the information to "third parties", whatever that means.

Yeah, that's another good point!

[Schultz]

Words, I need proof

[Rip]

Words, I need proof

Or words backed up by a legal guarentee of compensation for failing to honor the words. Which you won't get and as such will indicate just how COMMITTED they are to it.

[Schultz]

I trust what you are telling me, I wanted to say , that I didn't think they could do a thing like that, so I wanted a case , a example , a story about it.
I didn't wanted to insult anybody , if I did that please accept my apologies.

[The Enigma]

I trust what you are telling me, I wanted to say , that I didn't think they could do a thing like that, so I wanted a case , a example , a story about it.
I didn't wanted to insult anybody , if I did that please accept my apologies.

I don't feel insulted, so no need to apologize.
Examples:
Our energy company, my previous ISP, the company where I bought my car, the place where I used to do my fitness and so on, companies from which I bought software.

A will not go into details (for privacy reasons) about the mentioned companies, so you have to trust me on my word.

[Schultz]

I wanted a example with Ubi, or GFWL doing that thing to users.

[The Enigma]

In this thread there is an example mentioned how UBI installed spyware.
You need to search for it, since I can't recall where exactly.

EDIT:
Found it here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1260255&postcount=833)

[Jimbuna]

http://kenfrost.0catch.com/bigbrother.JPG

[Undefined]

And DRM will only harm consumers - US, pirates always find a way...

[Sailor Steve]

I can't understand what happens if you are connected to there server, it won't affect your privacy, even Gta 4 needs to be logged in GFWL and no one said anything.
It doesn't matter to me if they collect nothing at all. If I buy a game and want to play on my computer, and I'm not playing with others online, then I shouldn't be forced by someone else to be online while I play offline.

It's called tyranny, and some of us won't stand for it.

[TarJak]

Scenario: A company has come up with a new way of making more money out of games by forcing its customers to connect to its servers to provide better "service".

After seeing the trends on players likes and dislikes new game content is developed to line up with player likes and wants and little or no work is done on less used parts of the game. (In future releases, these features would end up not being included).

The new content is payware which is offered as part of the login to their servers. "Would you like the campaign files that take you to the end of WWII?" for example. "Just put your credit card details in and we will install it for you." You want it pay for it and it is installed over the wire.

Good or bad? Who for?

[THE_MASK]

Scenario: A company has come up with a new way of making more money out of games by forcing its customers to connect to its servers to provide better "service".

After seeing the trends on players likes and dislikes new game content is developed to line up with player likes and wants and little or no work is done on less used parts of the game. (In future releases, these features would end up not being included).

The new content is payware which is offered as part of the login to their servers. "Would you like the campaign files that take you to the end of WWII?" for example. "Just put your credit card details in and we will install it for you." You want it pay for it and it is installed over the wire.

Good or bad? Who for?
Payware is fine by me . Its a way of getting quality stuff . If it aint good enough then who will buy it . Payware plus free mods should add up to being a good game overall . BTW where did Ubi ever mention payware for SH5 ? Someone gave an example of Ubi offering a ship for $10 . For $10 it would have to be the best modelled ship ever produced and then some . Maybe a fully detailed playable sub with all the compartments for $10 .

[KevinM]

I had my pre-order in....I have subsequently cancelled it.

I'm not mesing about with this DRM nonsense. I usually take my laptop to my parents house when I go visit for a few days. They don't have internet, so that means I wouldn't be able to play SH5 when I go there.

If UBI ever get their thumbs from out of their behinds and realise that they are losing (and ticking off) customers (i.e. the people who essentially pay their wages), and remove DRM, then yes, I will buy it, but not until.

[TarJak]

Payware is fine by me . Its a way of getting quality stuff . If it aint good enough then who will buy it . Payware plus free mods should add up to being a good game overall . BTW where did Ubi ever mention payware for SH5 ? Someone gave an example of Ubi offering a ship for $10 . For $10 it would have to be the best modelled ship ever produced and then some . Maybe a fully detailed playable sub with all the compartments for $10 .
No-one inside Ubi has mentioned it... yet. I'm merely sepculating on a potential reason why Ubi would want all of its customers connected to its servers.

If its not for SHV then perhaps another of their more popular upcoming titles? Remember that OSP is going to be universal across their range of PC gaming product not just SHV.

[jokerl90]

I was going to buy SHV, but not after this DRM issue.
I don't think ubisoft will pay us one bit of attention, they will release the game with the DRM. Should sales be poor, they will not for one second consider it to be due to the DRM, they will just declare subsim's to be a dead market and move on. Should sales be good, it will encourage ubisoft and other game developers to include this kind of crap in their own games.
I didn't buy ubisoft products for a long time due to the "keycode in use issue" with Farcry.
I will not buy Massive Warefare2 because of no dedicated servers.
Was going to buy Battlefield Bad Company 2, but not now, they are not going to release server files which means clans will have to rent dedicated ranked server's at a premium price.premium=overpriced
They don't consider us to be loyal customers, but as sheep to be sheared.
They don't care if i buy their game or not, I'm only one person. It matters to me though, and I'll not pay to support this attitude they have. This all is a sign of things to come.

[Sandman_28054]

Thanks for the heads up on this issue.

My order is now canceled!

[Brag]

My Moo for today :D

Moooooooooooooooo!:salute:

[AS]

Sadly, SH5 is no longer an option now. Ironically, many people who would have purchased SH5, now will wait till an "offline-crack" appears or they will try and find an illegal version. I guess Ubisoft is going to get what they try to avoid.

I believe those people who are actually into submarine simulations are willing to BUY SH5 anyway. Those people who aren´t interested in the genre, won´t even bother to get SH5 illegally.
Makes sense, doesn´t it?

I for one love playing old games, and I really mean OLD. Hard enough to make them run on Win XP, now it seems future games will not only be limited due to software/ hardware development, but also because of online dependency.

There are so many games which were created by companies that no longer exist. What would have happened to their games if they had been based on online dependency? Dear Ubisoft, I´d like to play Silent Hunter when your servers are long dead and gone.

Cheers, AS

[AS]

Oh and by the way...

I´m pretty sure there´s going to be an "offline-crack" very soon. How difficult can it be for a hacker to remove SH5´s online check and replace it with a little (illegal) tool that emulates an internet connection?

Anyway, I won´t buy SH5 unless it´s DRM free or a crack/ workaround is available.

Thank you UBI for making me save money.

Cheers, AS

[Steeltrap]

AS, just being friendly, but you might want to make sure you can't be suspected of advocating any form of piracy/cracking, no metter how compelling the argument.

Neal and his moderators have zero tolerance on this topic (as they should).

Moving along.....

I'd be very interested in seeing data on the number of pre-orders that have been cancelled.

Cheers

[CaptJodan]

Said in another topic, but I'll repeat to add to the now closed poll. Won't buy unless this particular version of "scr*w the honest gamer" is removed. And I'm of the opinion that this will only cause more piracy from the hordes that don't want to deal with DRM. I also won't buy from Ubi even if a hack was created, because that sale only makes them think I'm happy with their DRM system.

And I respectfully disagree with Neal on the numbers issue. Sure, many casual gamers will shrug their shoulders and buy the game (and possibly return it after 10 times of being kicked off their internet and having their game either crash or "pause"), but I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio of casual gamers to hardcore (and knowledgeable) subsim gamers isn't closer than less niche market games.

Either way I imagine Ubi will take a hit. This isn't just for SHV, it's for everything they do. If you lose a majority of your hardcore gamers across the board, and you trickle off casual gamers that try a game, realize their game experience stinks with pauses or server issues or whatever, and then return it, then Ubi ultimately loses. Especially since I doubt this system will be foolproof anymore than other options have been up to this point.

It's a tragedy for almost everyone concerned. Ubi will lose money, not to mention good will. Fans will lose the opportunity to play games they really were looking forward to. The real winners here are the pirates. IF they can crack it, there will undoubtedly be an upsurge in their download numbers and they become more popular and gain "street cred". Regardless, I doubt this solution will solve the pirate problem.

[Brag]

Said in another topic, but I'll repeat to add to the now closed poll. Won't buy unless this particular version of "scr*w the honest gamer" is removed. And I'm of the opinion that this will only cause more piracy from the hordes that don't want to deal with DRM. I also won't buy from Ubi even if a hack was created, because that sale only makes them think I'm happy with their DRM system.

And I respectfully disagree with Neal on the numbers issue. Sure, many casual gamers will shrug their shoulders and buy the game (and possibly return it after 10 times of being kicked off their internet and having their game either crash or "pause"), but I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio of casual gamers to hardcore (and knowledgeable) subsim gamers isn't closer than less niche market games.

Either way I imagine Ubi will take a hit. This isn't just for SHV, it's for everything they do. If you lose a majority of your hardcore gamers across the board, and you trickle off casual gamers that try a game, realize their game experience stinks with pauses or server issues or whatever, and then return it, then Ubi ultimately loses. Especially since I doubt this system will be foolproof anymore than other options have been up to this point.

It's a tragedy for almost everyone concerned. Ubi will lose money, not to mention good will. Fans will lose the opportunity to play games they really were looking forward to. The real winners here are the pirates. IF they can crack it, there will undoubtedly be an upsurge in their download numbers and they become more popular and gain "street cred". Regardless, I doubt this solution will solve the pirate problem.

Anyone who has studied guerilla warfare will tell you that Ubi's DRM/OSP move will only make pirates more popular than ever, sort of folk heroes.We don't want that to happen because it undermines the future creation of quality games.

That's why I consider Ubi's move a disaster in the making.

Moo

[Fender74]

i was going to buy this game,but this is a step too far for me. :down:

[AS]

@ Steeltrap:

I´m not advocating anything, I´m just reflecting the DRM issue trying to anticipate what it all leads to. I do not support software piracy at all, partly because I want to support the genre. (I even bought the somewhat crappy "Shells of Fury" simply because I want the publishers of submarine simulation to keep on investing in "our" somewhat unpopular genre).

But if publishers like Ubisoft start to restrict the availability of a product I have to purchase, I´m not going to support that.

Selling a piece of software that ties you to a specific publisher´s server is piracy, isn´t it?

Cheers, AS

[Webster]

I´m not advocating anything

you didnt cross any lines there the way your statement was worded but steeltrap is correct, you did pop up on the radar for those key words you used

the trouble is usually the second guy sees the word posted then blurts out his honest opinion of the subject of that word and thats the poor guy that usually gets slammed.

like in football its the second guy that always goes too far.

this is why i try and ask people to use code words instead of saying "crack" so it helps remind others to watch how they speak about a very taboo subject.

[frenema]

Am I going to buy the game with the new DRM? To quote the lame trailer we got: "HELL NO"

[Heretic]

We're a niche group in a niche market. We're not their target audience anymore. If it's a choice between having a sub sim with all the baggage that a mass market product comes with or no sub sims at all, I'll take what I can get. Going forward, in any hardcore genre, having a base to mod from is probably the best we can hope for. The Devs say this game is moddable. I see no reason to believe the DRM prevents that. Time will tell.

The DRM will not succeed or fail based merely on SH5. It will be determined by all the titles using the same scheme. If it fails, it'll be removed. If it doesn't, well, that's life. I've spent thousands of dollars over the years to play my games. I don't like it, but if this DRM is the price I have to pay to play, so be it.

I'm sure I'll be cursing UBI if I can't play when I want. But I'll buy this game for the same reason I've bought pretty much every WWII sub game since my Atari 800 days and consider myself fortunate they're still being produced. I think it has great potential.


heretic

[THE_MASK]

I have previously said i wouldnt buy sh5 with drm but if this is true then i might change my mind .
What if Ubisoft decides not run these online services in the future? Will my game stop working?
If any service is stopped, we will create a patch for the game so that the core game play will not be affected.

[Glock17]

Will wait untill its either in the retail bin or untill the online service **** is patched out of the game.

Hoping GWX will make their SH4 mod in the meantime :)

[DaveP63]

A little late to the party but until they remove the online requirement, hell no.:down:

[Steeltrap]

Hi AS

In case I wasn't clear, I didn't think you were advocating anything. I was just offering a bit of friendly advice that someone might misinterpret what you were saying and take it as "don't buy it or wait until it's available off-line, legitimately or otherwise".

Again, not having a go at you at all. As Webster said, the danger is someone else 'building' on what you wrote.

Anyway, not looking to cause any grief, nor looking to dissect to the nth degree what you wrote.

Cheers

[Carotio]

A little provocative thought... :03:

http://support.uk.ubi.com/online-services-platform/

They say you can install it on as many pc's as you like.
They say you can only play with your individual Ubisoft account on one computer at a time.

But do they say that each copy of a dvd is attached to a specific Ubisoft account anywhere?
Meaning can one family member play with his/her account each monday on the family pc and the other family member with his/her account each tuesday?
If the answer is no, does Ubisoft provide a MultiSH5 function?
If the answer is yes, doesn't this open a door to "you know what"? :doh:

So can a couple of parents buy one dvd only, install it on two pc's for each of their kids, let them log on with each their account and play simultanously on the two pc's? :hmmm:

I know where this discussion can be going, and if you know that too, then don't even go there. This is meant as a hammering of the DRM/OSP decision... I wish they would realize they need to use an alternative.

[frenema]

I'm pretty sure they'll limit the accounts by binding them to serial keys. So, no.

[TarJak]

I'd say the comment about having to sell your ubisoft ID as well as the game to be able to resell would put the nail in that coffin.

[Letum]

I have previously said i wouldnt buy sh5 with drm but if this is true then i might change my mind .
What if Ubisoft decides not run these online services in the future? Will my game stop working?
If any service is stopped, we will create a patch for the game so that the core game play will not be affected.

If you haven't yet, you might want to read this:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7134-Experienced-Points-Activation-Bomb

[XLjedi]

Hmm... yea, when I posted that I forgot the devs worked for UBI...

Now we need to come up with something like with ea... Evil Arts...:rotfl2:

now what could UBI stand for... lol

I've mentioned before how their logo reminds me of a flushing toilet.

[Reece]

Originally Posted by Task Force http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1246829#post1246829)
Hmm... yea, when I posted that I forgot the devs worked for UBI...

Now we need to come up with something like with ea... Evil Arts...:rotfl2:

now what could UBI stand for... lol
I'm trying to think but it's so noisy here, hang on a sec!! .... Quiet down you Useless Bunch of Idiots, I'm trying to think!! .... Sorry lost my train of thought, can't think of anything now!:-?

[malkuth74]

I hate the DRM...

But I bet half the people that say no in this thread will own a copy the first week if the people that do have a copy say its a great game. Maybe even more.

I also believe that maybe 25% of you that say no will give in the weekend before release date and order it. :)

Also note, the ones that stay behind and we get the game and say its crappy, all of you will be on the forums telling us we told you so. And laughing at us. :har:

[Reece]

I hate the DRM...

But I bet half the people that say no in this thread will own a copy the first week if the people that do have a copy say its a great game. Maybe even more.Certainly not me, guarantee 100%:smug:

[RSColonel_131st]

Letum, awesome find with that Escapist Article.

[TarJak]

^^:yeah:

[Seeadler]

If you always wanted to know where the savegames are stored, who maintains the servers, who provide this service,... Ubisoft used for Siedler7beta and Anno1401 those servers here http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ ...and for the following games probably also:ping:

[piri_reis]

If you always wanted to know where the savegames are stored, who maintains the servers, who provide this service,... Ubisoft used for Siedler7beta and Anno1401 those servers here http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ ...and for the following games probably also:ping:

Thanks, that's useful info. It's likely they'll be using Amazon's services for SH5 also. So EC2 offers servers at 3 locations, N.Virginia, N.Carolina and Ireland. That could mean most europeans will use Ireland datacenter, of course depending on what peerings your ISP has.. Will investigate this more.

BTW, nice sig, wargames :DL

[Brag]

One thing that is seldom mentioned in this forum is, SH5 is not the only game affected. Probably hundreds of thousands of other gamers are actively anti drum. The whole future of gaming is at stake. Even with single digit persentage loss ofrevenue, Ubi will end up in deep trouble.

Ubi knows the move to include DRM in games is risky. That's why they changed the name from DRM to OSP. What they failed to realize is that if you paint stripes on a donkey and call it a zebra, gamers will still recognize it as a donkey.

Hard core susimmers represent about 10% of the Ubi market. That is a significant number. The gaming press is mostly anti DRM. So, chances for Ubi's move to succeed in its razmataz are slim indeed.

Ubi's estimated operating loss of over 50 million euros during their 2010 fiscal year are going to be much higher thanks to a mistaken strategy that alienates not only its core customers, but goes against a world-wide resistance against an invasive system in their computers.

Big Brother type control is out of fashion. The Berlin wall fell 20 years ago. There is strong resistance to internet control in China and in countries undder authoritarian rule.

I find it difficult to believe that gamers of all genres wish to be controlled by a game manufacturer.

If Ubi doesn't realize this, the countdown to catastrophe has started.

[RSColonel_131st]

If you always wanted to know where the savegames are stored, who maintains the servers, who provide this service,... Ubisoft used for Siedler7beta and Anno1401 those servers here http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ ...and for the following games probably also:ping:

That's the next nail in the coffin.

Imagine you have a tech problem with the service.

It can be your computer/network configuration.

It can be your internet service provider.

It can be an interconnect problem between your ISP and the Server Host ISP.

It can be directly at the Server Host.

And for all those possible points of failure, your only point of contact is UBISoft which then has to contact Amazon to investigate.

Ever seen Blame Pingpong? That happens when you buy a service which relies on two different providers (for example, webhosting from company A and Internet Access from company B) and you can only use the service (your personal website) when both services are working correctly. The minute you have an issue, Tech Support A will blame it on Tech Support B and vice versa.

Guess what UBI can play with you, your ISP and Amazon hosting?

Seriously, if you sell a new online service and expect people to put a lot of trust into you, at least make the effort to host it yourself.

[piri_reis]

Seriously, if you sell a new online service and expect people to put a lot of trust into you, at least make the effort to host it yourself.

Actually I think it is a wise choice to use Amazon's service. Now I've never used their service, I don't know how good they are; But these kinds of technical services need be taken care by "specialized people and companies". In this case Amazon with datacenters in various continents and redundant connection and hardware. And competent network/system admins managing the services..

Regarding the helpdesk services we'd get, we wouldn't care where it's hosted, If amazon has problems, UBI is my contact and they will be the ones I hold responsible.

[Affront7]

Just canceled pre-order of collectors editons on finding out about the DRM and needing to be connected to Ubisorft servers to play and to save, load games :(

[Iron Budokan]

I hate the DRM...

But I bet half the people that say no in this thread will own a copy the first week if the people that do have a copy say its a great game. Maybe even more.

I also believe that maybe 25% of you that say no will give in the weekend before release date and order it. :)



I can guarantee you I won't be one of them unless and until Neal comes back with his main review and says "Chillax, fellas, the game actually rocks."

Then I'll buy it because I trust Neal regardless of any other concern I have regarding this game.

Until then, I'll wait for all the gimcrackery to be modded out. Because I also trust our community of modders. They are always fantastic. :up:

[Seeadler]

Until then, I'll wait for all the gimcrackery to be modded out. Because I also trust our community of modders. They are always fantastic. :up:
That assumes, that they buy the game :D

[Iron Budokan]

That assumes, that they buy the game :D

Well, yeah, lol. :DL

[Nordmann]

I purchased both SH3 and 4 on release, but for the first time find myself hesitating with this particular incarnation. While it looks fantastic, and includes some innovative features, I am concerned with this internet based DRM. Having had some unfortunate experiences with ISPs for the last six years, namely connection loss (six months in one case), it strikes me as a real risk.

Without an internet connection, the product I will have paid for will be completely useless, and while I spend most of my time connected, there is always the chance that a storm, or ISP screw-up, will deprive me of said connection. In my opinion, this is the most off-putting form of DRM I have thus far encountered, short of limited activations/installs.

It seems to me, that while attempting to avoid piracy (which is impossible in any case) they are in actuality penalising their customers, the very people they are relying on to stay in business. Not exactly an informed decision.

While tempted to buy the game off the bat, I think I will wait a few months, and see how this pans out. As it stands, I do not want to pay £27 to have such limitations imposed upon me. It's a shame, as this looks like a real gem, but the risk is simply too great.

[Shigawire]

I suspect that this is going to cause the opposite effect of what was intended. Once the wiz-kids get around this horrible DRM, which is inevitable, the game is going to get pirated even more than previous titles.

[Brag]

I suspect that this is going to cause the opposite effect of what was intended. Once the wiz-kids get around this horrible DRM, which is inevitable, the game is going to get pirated even more than previous titles.

Provoking anger on one's client base is a disastrous policy. DRM has provoked anger among tens of thousands submarine gamers. Ubi, wake up!

[Redfoxx]

Gentlemen: This has to be one of the worst days in my life. I have placed $10.00 down on a pre-order for this game and just now I am finding out about something called DRM and having to connect online to be able to get into the action. Sure hope EB Games gives me a credit on this as I would never had committed knowing this was a "rental system". Thanks to all for the info. Now I will go to my bedroom and cry.

[Steeltrap]

If amazon has problems, UBI is my contact and they will be the ones I hold responsible.

Just curious: how exactly will you hold them responsible in a way that means anything?

You can't return the game.
You can't sell it.

You could refuse to play it, but the problem is, in this 'support required' scenario we're discussing, you already can't play it.....that's why you need the support.

Fact is, once you buy this game you are completely at their mercy. You have no effective right of reply, no recourse that makes Ubi feel any pain from their inability to provide the 'promised' service.

It's a mug's bet, that.

I will not be making it.

[Seafireliv]

Just wanted to post that i`ll never buy SH5 until this Draconian DRM is removed for good. And let me tell you, when I was told of the game by email, I was about to make a Pre-Order until PERMANENT INTERNET CONNECTION showed up at the bottom of the screen.

Think I`m a fool, UBI? You`re the fools as you`ve just lost money! Not so smart.

If you continue this with all your games then i`ll buy none of them even if I go back to playing board games!

Change your ways and all will be forgiven.

If you persist in this I hope it wrecks your company.

[kaptkirkU4467]

Well I will not buy it,sad, but it looks nice.
Only 1943?...I didnt put all my spare cash into this computer to play PS2/XBox style games.:damn:

[Nordmann]

Fact is, once you buy this game you are completely at their mercy. You have no effective right of reply, no recourse that makes Ubi feel any pain from their inability to provide the 'promised' service.

Exactly. They already have your money, do you really think they care whether or not you can access the game? They'll make the right noises of course, but in the end, it's a done deal, and you've signed up for whatever they choose to provide.

[guillaume35]

i wil buy it i hope as we al come online the server wil hold :D:D:D :har:

[Lt. Staumeier]

Too late to vote, but I can tell you this hit the nail in the coffin for me. SH V is a no go. (Additions were the crappy character animations. It totally killed immersion for me. The torp reloading crews looked like they were taking a stroll in the park, not working under pressure)

[Starforce2]

Once I buy a game, I should be able to play whenever I want. I own it. I shouldn't be restricted to play only where I have the net. Even though I'd likely only ever play at home, connections still go down. They can be out on rare occasion for a day or so (bad storm or winter storm) so even if I have power and nothing better to do..I am stuck? Online game saves? I want my saves on my computer. I can backup my own saves, so can anyone else with enough brains to drive a sub. It doesn't take up that much space. No backup space? It's called dropbox.com with 2 gigs on the free end and it syncs to multiple computers.

Even though ubi has probably lost me with it's return to Uboat rather than Pacific theater, which I prefer, I was still thinking of buying it, but now that I've found out about this online crap I don't want it.

[Mikkow]

I bought SH3 some time after it came out. Not long after I pre-ordered and recieved SH4 collector's edition. It seems that SH5 will go back to my favourite location, and that it actually implements roaming the whole sub - quality over quantity; just what I had requested and hoped for.

But I cannot pay UbiSoft to supply me with a copy when they actually went out of their way to mess with my would-be game purchase. Even with a very fast internet connection, it drops on occasion. There's the principle matter too - that people associated with this probably excellent simulator, spent their energy, and were paid, to make the purchase and gaming experience WORSE. The whole concept of spending resources to make something worse is appaling. UbiSoft with revenues of over a billion euros (something along 1,500,000,000 dollars), a company with a terrible track record as far as respecting privacy (spyware has been secretly distributed to paying customers) and disgusting practices, takes another step in this nasty direction.

To give them my money is to say "Hey, your efforts to ruin my gaming and ownership experience, and to turn a product into real time spyware, then charging money for it is awesome, here's my money. Take it further, it's a complete success! Give the executive responsible a fat bonus". I can't do it.

Sorry to the Bucharest studios who made this. I'd love to get my hands on it and play it and support you and submarine sims. Blame UbiSoft who forced this matter. And let it be damned clear that the reason myself and others like me did not buy is because of the ridiculous anti-distribution efforts of UbiSoft, not at all SH5 and the sub simming genre.

I'm planning to buy Hearts of Iron 3 as my next purchase. It's an excellent game made 30 mins from my home. I played the 'user distributed' version months ago and liked it, just like I did SH3 before I bought that. When I found out they want to make owning the product as enjoyable as possible by completely skipping any measures that could interfere, and that they were not going to waste any of the investments/revenues on trying to mess it up, I was even more positive to them (Paradox Interactive), and I want to make sure to show them that I appreciate their marvelous game and principles.

PS. Anyone think that this 'constant connection required' is only used to verify that you have a version that they distributed? The 4.05m version of IL-2 1946 (the flight simulator) was sent off to UbiSoft from Maddos Games (the developers), and then they distributed it online. UbiSoft didn't see anything wrong at all with inserting spyware (that ran so bad the quality of the product became very poor) into the main executable. See their wiki page for more evil crap. I'm sure it's been mentioned here by now. There's no reason to believe that this is anything other than an additional way of control and taking spying to never before believed heights. With the anti-piracy paid for laws, and the new fresh winds to tap all electronic communications in Europe, this certainly is in the right moment in time. Couldn't have been more suitable. What's another loss of integrity worth when so much is lost already?

[OakGroove]

Good post Mikkow :up:

[tommyk]

Very well said Mikkow! :up:

[V.C. Sniper]

i'm just not gonna buy it at launch if it ain't finish

[Fantasm]

This will probably become one of the MOST pirated games out there....
All this complaining about the DRM is moving SH5 into the Pirate's attack scope....
Every pirate out there will be trying to crack and distribute this game... They get their online "cred" for beating a new protection scheme... and distributing it as widely as possible... What may have had little interest to most pirates because of it's niche market will now become the proverbial red flag to a bull to them, they thrive on challenges like this....
The pirates will have this beaten in hours... To them, failure is not an option....

[Sailor Steve]

Probably true, but irrelevant to me. I don't play pirated games either. The ones being hurt the most are the ones who want to buy the game and play it.




Offline.

[soldat32]

They totally ripped out the ability to play a career the entire length of the war and instead have given customers the ability to roam the sub on foot.I say big deal!THat's going to be a purchase killer for a lot of fans of this genre as well as only 1 sub option.What the heck were they thinking?Do they think customers will pay for each new sub added later or something?:roll:Other then graphics there is really nothing to see here that's spectacular.I laugh at this excuse put forth that the reason they only modeled 1 sub was to dedicate their time to a more accurate simulation.That's complete hogwash.Every SH title prior to this modeled several subs and did it pretty well.Really they are down playing the truth here and that truth is that the development team was rushed and/or just plain lazy as was the case in SH3 and 4.This time around though its much worse and aside from a severe lack of playability they shove a very nasty DRM upon their customers.


I hope UBI learns an important lesson here.Do not ignore or piss down your customers backs and tell them its raining.

[Seafireliv]

I hope UBI learns an important lesson here.Do not ignore or piss down your customers backs and tell them its raining.

That`s exactly what they`re trying to do.

[Snakeeyes]

This will be the second time I have forfeited a game I am passionate
about because the DRM system won't let me own the game after I have
paid for it.

It breaks my heart.

I second.

I've just surfaced after being out of radio contact for about 6 months now. I was excited when I heard about SH5 but can't believe what they are doing.

Well... if the Bears can choose to keep Lovie Smith in charge ANY management FUBAR is possible in the world.

Sorry Ubisoft... no DRM no cash from my wallet. I think Ubisoft will fold eventually on this when they don't profit.

[OakGroove]

Just read an article on google`s and facebooks business models

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233773

Excerpt:

The problem with buying things with your privacy is you really don't know how much you're paying. With money, five bucks is five bucks. But what is the value of your list of friends? If it's not worth much, your membership on Facebook may be the deal of a lifetime. If it's incredibly valuable, you're getting massively ripped off. Only the techies know how much your info is worth, and they're not telling. But the fact that they'd rather get your data than your dollars tells you all you need to know.

Wish more people would take a minute to think about how far reaching their buying decision on any Uplay injected title could be. If there was a general acceptance towards this kind of implementation, future escalation of the software is just an account away. Most DRM debates are centric on "Pirates" and companies loosing revenue because of. Piracy has always been there, for decades. Entertainment companies must have this position in their calculus, fully knowing that available DRM technology will protect their products only temporarily - and they openly admit it.

[Reece]

Probably true, but irrelevant to me. I don't play pirated games either. The ones being hurt the most are the ones who want to buy the game and play it.




Offline.Same here, I'm just hoping for a NoDRM patch so I can install the legal purchased version then apply the patch!:yep:

[Brag]

I second.

I've just surfaced after being out of radio contact for about 6 months now. I was excited when I heard about SH5 but can't believe what they are doing.

Well... if the Bears can choose to keep Lovie Smith in charge ANY management FUBAR is possible in the world.

Sorry Ubisoft... no DRM no cash from my wallet. I think Ubisoft will fold eventually on this when they don't profit.


If Ubisoft management is not reading this forum, they are ignorant idiots. If they don't stop pissing nearly everyone off, they deserve to go broke. SHV, Settlers and Assassins Creed II represent a lot of money to be lost.

If they don't get rid of DRM/OSP/Youplay we're going to see a spectacular train wreck.

[raymond6751]

When I buy a game I expect to play it, without strings attached or any buts. I won't buy this game now or any that use Steam or any other 'must' do or 'must' connect rules.

I seriously doubt that Ubisoft has lost so much to piracy that it warrants handcuffing the public.:down:

[Seafireliv]

Just read an article on google`s and facebooks business models

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233773

Excerpt:



Wish more people would take a minute to think about how far reaching their buying decision on any Uplay injected title could be. If there was a general acceptance towards this kind of implementation, future escalation of the software is just an account away. Most DRM debates are centric on "Pirates" and companies loosing revenue because of. Piracy has always been there, for decades. Entertainment companies must have this position in their calculus, fully knowing that available DRM technology will protect their products only temporarily - and they openly admit it.


I truly believe as well that this goes much further than just pirates or even just greed on UBI`s part.

If this kind of DRM becomes accepted, expect to see every single game and program start using it. Expect then, that every single time you start your PC they`ll be a rule that they know about it. expect then that you`ll be expected to pay a monthly fee to play.

Even expect that eventually, you`ll be required to supply your name and address and age and whatever else (WITH PROOF) before you can play the game you bought before you can install and when you do play to be paying monthly extra for the privelege.

OK, i`m going a bit extreme here, but neither did i expect to see SH5 plus EVERY UBI game going 24\7 until a month ago.

We can`t just accept this. UBI must change or go bankrupt as a lesson to other companies thinking of doing the same.

Do not buy. Please.

[Iron Budokan]

I have no intention of buying this game given the current circumstances surrounding it. All you have to do is read other gaming forums as well to see how this new policy is being received. This is not going over well at all, even with casual gamers.

I smell death in the air for this game. Maybe it's deserved, given how it's being presented and given how Ubi is now treating customers like criminals.

[Snakeeyes]

This totally reminds me of Thrustmaster Inc. in the late 80s and early 90s.

Small company who made quality joysticks and throttles for simmers and the real Air Force in a tiny town in Oregon.

You could call these people up with techincal problems, repairs you name it and get someone on the phone who would remember your name. They had the best customer service and responded super fast. They always put customers first and knew that without us they were nothing - (Harrison Ford in K-19).

Well, they were bought by... guess who... Ubisoft. Instantly they canned everyone and there was zero customer service. The quality of the sticks went to hell. They promised more features in their new merchandise but got shoddy assemblage. As a hard core simmer I take my hardware very seriously... like an F-16 pilot checking the weapons pylons personally before a mission. But when the hardware went to Shiznit I didn't appreciate it. "THAT'S WHAT I HAVE TO FIGHT BEFORE I CAN FIGHT A WAR!" Also a K-19 quote.

I didn't need the headache so I dumped them and they lost my business. Now its 2010 and it looks like I'm going to be dumping the same company again, this time for software. What a shame.

[matsterman]

All this game is is an ONLINE GAME, where you pay the fee up front, and they decide when you play, and how you play it.

I CAN SEE A UBISOFT PRESS RELEASE, 2 YEARS FROM NOW:

February 2012.

"Ubisoft Management announces that they will no longer be providing free support for the playing of Silent Hunter V. For a small monthly fee, you may continue to play Silent Hunter V on a subsidiary's network servers or YOU MAY UPGRADE TO SILENT HUNTER VII for a one-time fee of $49.95. Ubisoft regrets this decision however current economic models prohibit the further continuance of player support directly from Ubisoft. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

Thank you,
Ubisoft Management"

Imagine the small print on this baby also: "Ubisoft may scan players computer at any time, and any data collected whether by accident or intention is agreed upon and permission is hereby granted by the playing party...."

No thanks Ubisoft, NO GAME IS WORTH THIS, lolz

[Brag]

Masterman, welcome aboard :salute::salute::salute:

[Red Heat]

I personaly make the mistake to buy (i didnt notest when i buy it in the store) Empire total war (stem)...and i say to myself...NO MORE!

And i have another game witch i was thinking to have...Assassins Creed 2 and i will note buit it for the same reason...

[rascal101]

Already has affected m decision - not buying with DRM on board

Remove DRM and I buy

Simple as that

R

[rascal101]

To tell you the truth I didnt like Steam for the longest time - however with a couple of games with Steam on board its not suh a problem and certsainly not as intrusive as the DRM

So to all who read this - you'd be better off geting Empire Total War or Napoleon Total War and leaving SH5 to fester - the former have Steam the latter has DRM

To each their own

R
I personaly make the mistake to buy (i didnt notest when i buy it in the store) Empire total war (stem)...and i say to myself...NO MORE!

And i have another game witch i was thinking to have...Assassins Creed 2 and i will note buit it for the same reason...