The gawd-almighty merged DRM in Silent Hunter V thread

[Letum]

I meant speculate about Ubi servers going down, Ubi will steal private data, speculate that it will be cracked anyway, etc.


I haven't personally speculated about any of those, although Ubisoft
has done all three in the past.

[Méo]

I haven't personally speculated about any of those, although Ubisoft
has done all three in the past.

I wasn't necessarily talking only about you, it was a general comment.

[Onkel Neal]

In the end, there is always someone who will make money by giving
paying customers what they want, however much piracy or games
people refuse to buy, a paying customer's wallet is still worth chasing.

Sure, invest $1,500,000 in a game and give paying cutomers what they want, and paying customer's wallets totals, oh, let's say $50,000. Yeah, that's a great business model.

If there are not enough paying customers, it won't get made. No matter how much paying customers want it.

[Letum]

It'll get made to what ever extent it will be paid for.
One customer paying one pound gets you £1 worth of game.

[razark]

It'll get made to what ever extent it will be paid for.
One customer paying one pound gets you £1 worth of game.

I rolled a 4. Does that mean my torpedo hits the tanker or not?

I really hope subsims as a genre are not reduced to this. I'd hate to see them go to the console. I just don't think they'd survive in that format, at least not in any form I'd like to play.

[Onkel Neal]

It'll get made to what ever extent it will be paid for.
One customer paying one pound gets you £1 worth of game.

What? Again, what?

[Nickolas]

I rolled a 4. Does that mean my torpedo hits the tanker or not?


it would if you were playing Silent war.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17484/silent-war

and it's a board game so don't worry, internet connection is not required :rotfl2:

[Reece]

Thanks for merging the threads. :down:
Now I can't find anything at all. :damn:
I was on a 7 page thread, hard enough, but now it is 83 pages so on dial up I am supposed to take a week to search for the relative postings???:o

I guess that was done for your convenience and obviously with no concern for the general membership.

I guess Joe Biden is the moderator now :timeout:

WulfmannAgree 100%, whoever merged it obviously from the "lovers of the DRM/OSP crowd"!!:nope: Now the poll results are gone and I can't respond to the previous thread, lost in the middle somewhere!!:stare: What a pain!!:shifty::x:nope:

[Letum]

The merging has been a little over zealous.
Two threads surely isn't too many.

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks for merging the threads. :down:
Now I can't find anything at all. :damn:
I was on a 7 page thread, hard enough, but now it is 83 pages so on dial up I am supposed to take a week to search for the relative postings???:o

I guess that was done for your convenience and obviously with no concern for the general membership.

I guess Joe Biden is the moderator now :timeout:

Wulfmann

Oh come on, just click and read, that will take you a week? That's pretty scary.

[Ships-R-Us]

Originally Posted by 609_Avatar http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1269512#post1269512)
This just in... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/...broadband_data (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_broadband_data)

By JOELLE TESSLER, AP Technology Writer Joelle Tessler, Ap Technology Writer – 57 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Roughly 40 percent of Americans do not have high-speed Internet access at home, according to new Commerce Department figures that underscore the challenges facing policymakers who are trying to bring affordable broadband connections to everyone.

but UBI refuses to see the truth because as this shows, a simple data search (hint to UBI executives, try using google) it would show their customers arent able to use the system they propose.

This arguement holds no merit. The slowest dialup connection will play SH5 just as well as the fastest T1 or broadband connection. Appears from all I've observed those acustomed to playing pirate complain about DRM because it may rip the patch and sabre from them. Even when playing the legal SH5 they will blame DRM for their system crashes when in fact they have never performed proper computer maintenance on their system.

Neal posted a letter from a developer earlier today that sums it all up better than any post I have read on this forum. I include an excerpt below as I believe it was overlooked by the whiners and complainers, THEREFORE WORTHY OF REPOSTING.

I have followed the posts of many here and it is pretty easy to spot the profile of the pirates taking the liberty to complain in this holy of holy forum.

I am so hot that I may start several threads to get Michaels quote in front of as many members as possible in hopes the glaze will vanish from some members eyes.

I know my level of awareness and understanding was increeased as I read Michaels letter. You have all seen the trend and the success of many developers hinging on the switch to console gaming.

Please read Michaels quote referencing the PC, Hardware and software configs many of you are playing with. Some here running such a config should feel ashamed lest you complain about any games performance.

QUOTE FROM NEAL:
No, the piracy excuse is not bull, it's real. Study after study shows huge numbers of people playing games without buying them. There was one article by a small game developer, he said that when they released a patch for their game, it was downloaded 80,000 times in the first few weeks. But they had only sold something like 15,000 copies of the game. Piracy is wide-spread. I was on break between classes today, two of my classmates were watching Avatar
Get used to the idea that game developers will be moving to the Xbox and PS3 consoles, they are not going to invest millions into games and only a few people actually pay for them.
Small game developers like Michael Fitch are leaving the industry. Can't say I blame them.

Michaels Quote:

Enough about piracy. Let's talk about hardware vendors. Trying to make a game for PC is a freaking nightmare, and these guys make it harder all the time. Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.
And it just keeps getting worse. CD/DVD drives with bad firmware, video cards that look like they should be a step-up from a previous generation, but actually aren't, drivers that need to be constantly updated, separate rendering paths for optimizing on different chips, oh my god. Put together consumers who want the cheapest equipment possible with the best performance, manufacturers who don't give a **** what happens to their equipment once they ship it, and assemblers who need to work their margins everywhere possible, and you get a lot of ****ty hardware out there, in innumerable configurations that you can't possibly test against. But, it's always the game's fault when something doesn't work.
Even if you get over the hump on hardware compatibility - and god knows, the hardware vendors are constantly making it worse - if you can, you still need to deal with software conflicts. There are a lot of apps running on people's machines that they're not even aware of, or have become such a part of the computer they don't even think of them as being apps anymore. IM that's always on; peer-to-peer clients running in the background; not to mention the various adware and malware crap that people pick up doing things they really shouldn't. Trying to run a CPU and memory heavy app in that environment is a nightmare. But, again, it's always the game's fault if it doesn't work.

Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there. Now, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very savvy people out there, too, and there were some great folks in the TQ community who helped us out a lot. But, there's a lot of stupid people. Basic, basic stuff, like updating your drivers, or de-fragging your hard drive, or having antivirus so your machine isn't a teetering pile of rogue programs. PC folks want to have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want with their machines, and god help them they will do it; more power to them, really. But god forbid something that they've done - or failed to do - creates a problem with your game. There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than gaming forums.

[Frederf]

Merged threads can be a pain to follow. You may or may not be aware that if you set the posts-per-page to the maximum this thread is but a mere 32 pages. Then again you are on dial-up

[Onkel Neal]

I wouldn't take the effort to merge except they are talking about the same thing in several threads. Same discussion.

[martes86]

[...] Appears from all I've observed those acustomed to playing pirate complain about DRM because it may rip the patch and sabre from them. Even when playing the legal SH5 they will blame DRM for their system crashes when in fact they have never performed proper computer maintenance on their system.
[...]
I have followed the posts of many here and it is pretty easy to spot the profile of the pirates taking the liberty to complain in this holy of holy forum.

First of all, the colour of your post hurts my eyes, so I'll make the quote in regular black font. (an absurd choice of colour BTW, I don't understand the need to make the whole posts shine like that)

Second, pirates couldn't care less about DRM. It won't affect them! Someone will crack SH5, and they'll be none the wiser. On the other hand, it's we legit users who complain, because it's us that the system will bother, not the pirates. And if it bothers the pirates, what good does that to us? We'll still be screwed by it, having paid for ALL the SH games that have been coming out.
And that goes for me, my flotilla buddies, or anyone around here sensible enough to not pirate a game that already has a low level of budget and sales, and that needs strong support in order to survive. You really think that real subsimmers want to screw their sims because of a few bucks? You may think I'm just being naive, but I really think that, those that matter, don't pirate the SH games, that piracy comes only from casual gamers who couldn't give a crap about what happens to the game, or the development studio.

[Seafireliv]

Yea the stupid glowing green annoyed me too. So much so, i just skipped his whole post. i guess if he thought it would get his post read, well it backfired.

[onelifecrisis]

Regarding the merged threads, it's not like there isn't an announcement stating...

Hey, where did that announcement go?

@Letum

I think your attempt to show my analogy to be broken was pretty weak, as evidenced in part by your repeated use of the word "arguably". You seem to be saying that a person's lot in life, the "hand they are dealt", is not related to their money-earning potential, which is laughable IMO but if you really believe it then I'm not going to "argue" it with you. Allow me to put my analogy aside and rephrase: life isn't fair, and it's not Ubisoft's job to make it fair.

Your assertion that gamers should be trusted is also problematic. On the one hand piracy is proof that most gamers can't be trusted. On the other hand, with regards to the "principle" you say you have, I wonder whether you have ever signed a mobile phone contract? Taken a loan? Or a mortgage? They all require credit checks and unless I'm mistaken such a check would violate this principle of yours. Do you plan to forgo home ownership entirely until a bank comes along who will simply accept your word when you say you're good for the money?

Yes, OSP is Ubisoft saying that I'm guilty until proven innocent. Yes, I'm okay with that for two reasons: 1) statistically speaking I am guilty and 2) OSP theoretically provides a transparent, hassle-free way for me to prove my innocence.

Furthermore, as I've said before I'm not going to buy the game until I'm reasonably sure that it has no bugs and the servers work well. I don't see me having to prove my innocence to Ubisoft as being very different from Ubisoft having to prove their competence to me. Neither of us trusts the other, but if both of us can find a way to work around that lack of trust and if both of us benefit from the arrangement (they get my cash, I get to play SH5 without too many bugs) then where is the problem? Where is your problem with that?

[Méo]

@onelifecrisis

Very good points. :hmmm:

But I think that most of people here only see what they want to see.

[TarJak]

Good points indeed, however for me the proof on innocence is not the issue. My issue is paying for something that I then do not have the freedom to enjoy whenever I want. When I go on a trip somewhere that does not have access to the internet, I would be prevented from enjoying the fruits of my wallet.

That is a dealbreaker for me. If the game looks good enough and the servers reliable enough and the game hits the bargain bins before they remove OSP, then I'll consider buying the game at about AU$10. This is the price point where the hassle of not enjoying the game when and where I want is outweighed by the low cost of the purchase.

Because new games start at AU$90 and upwards, (IIRC SH4 was AU$99 at EB on release), I'd feel ripped off if I then went on a trip and could not take my laptop and legal copy of the game with me to enjoy during my down time.

And yes I travel quite a bit for work making this an issue for me.

It amy be fine for those to do bugger all but play online 24/7 but for me the model is broken.

[badkarma]

No, the piracy excuse is not bull, it's real. Study after study shows huge numbers of people playing games without buying them. There was one article by a small game developer, he said that when they released a patch for their game, it was downloaded 80,000 times in the first few weeks. But they had only sold something like 15,000 copies of the game. Piracy is wide-spread.

The problem with these figures is that they leave out a VITAL piece of information, as do all these studies.
How many of those 80,000 pirated it INSTEAD of buying it?
And that's the nub of the whole "DRM hassles the legitimate customer" arguement.

As far as piracy being rife, yup without a doubt it is.
However the maths of X pirated copies + Y purchased copies = total sales if piracy was totally impossible is so off base.

Companies who use this type of intrusive DRM need to look more closely.

Ok, so 80,000 people are playing it for free - which is annoying for sure. But how many of these pirates were going to buy it, but grabbed a copy instead?
I'm no pirate (the last time I copied a game it involved connecting 2 tape recorders together!), but there are a ton of games I'd play if they were free.
However at £30 a go, I'm VERY selective. I'll ponder what's there, play demos and be very very picky. If games were all free, I'd fill my hard drive to bursting with anything that even piqued a vague interest.

So now we've got some reality kicking in, what are the real numbers of LOST SALES, not just pirated downloads?

Now add to this, how many people with a moral compass not set in stone, who aren't currently pirates, are going to be tempted when they see that the pirated copy of the game can be played when they like (when their net connection is down, on their 2 hour train journey, on their non-net connected gaming PC) whereas the legitimate purchasers are treated like permanant criminals and can only play when Uncle UBI says so?

And lets remember, people with pirated games aren't PC geniuses anymore. Anyone that can type in google and download a torrent app can do it. These aren't elite circles of hackers anymore who share it amongst themselves. The ONLY thing stopping ANYONE from using a pirated copy is their own moral stance.
So how much sense does it make to take those moral few, and treat them like criminals and restrict their use of a game when the pirates can play it the way they'd like to, ie without connections, accounts, passwords, etc??

DRM might make them feel better, feel like they're not just giving up, but I suspect the harsh reality of it is that when you remove the false assumption that every pirate was previously going to purchase, and pushing those who are morally on the fence into taking the pirated copy because it actually works the way they need it to, the outcome is no different to if they'd released it with a key code.

[onelifecrisis]

badkarma, the quote in this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1270023&postcount=1219) answers your question nicely I think.

[badkarma]

badkarma, the quote in this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1270023&postcount=1219) answers your question nicely I think.

It's an interesting article for sure, and sad that the developer is now gone, but it still doesn't answer anything as far as I can see.

He pulls 10% as a figure of "pirates to sales" for them to have doubled their sales, but that 10% is an arbitrary guess, as much as 100% is.
What if it's 0.2%, is it worth ****ing off all your legitimate customers and losing some of them to piracy to convert the pirates to sales?

And as much as I'm likely to get flack for this, he says that part of their copy-protection was to dump the user out mid-game. And then the complaints that the game was faulty caused them bad publicity.
:o
So code smarter! Making a recognition of piracy that looks EXACTLY the same as a crash to desktop is madness.
Show them a huge "You filthy pirate!" sign. Lock their machine for 5 minutes, give them a link to the companies help site/email in case they are a legitimate user and need assistance.
How about you log their MAC and IP and report it back to a service and take some legal action? How many people being arrested would it take for the non-hardcore pirates to think twice that their next torrent could land them in front of a judge?

That's the whole problem with this DRM issue.
On one end of the scale is Open Source. The other end is a man from the publisher comes to your house everytime you want to play (when he's free) and sits there as you do. He then takes the game away until next time.
You need to balance ease of piracy, with interfering with your legitimate customers desire to play the game they purchased.

For me personally, permanant "phone home" DRM is way too aggressive.
And as I have a moral standing on this, I just won't buy.

[onelifecrisis]

He pulls 10% as a figure of "pirates to sales" for them to have doubled their sales, but that 10% is an arbitrary guess, as much as 100% is.
What if it's 0.2%, is it worth ****ing off all your legitimate customers and losing some of them to piracy to convert the pirates to sales?

Yes, this is the part I was referring you to. But you seem to have missed the point he was making, which is that 10% corresponds to doubled revenues. That means your 0.2% corresponds to 2% more revenue. You're right that nobody knows exact numbers on "lost sales" but his numbers show that a relatively small decrease in lost sales actually amounts to a big increase in revenues. He doesn't know how long the piece of string is, but he knows whatever length is it he can multiply it by ten and that means it doesn't have to be long at all to be significant.

Whether OSP will actually prevent piracy at all is another issue. I don't think it'll stop outright piracy at all. But it will prevent resale and it'll also prevent lending/swapping/borrowing amongst friends, so maybe those things alone will be enough to decrease those "lost sales" by a few percent (and increase revenues by ten times that amount). Time will tell.

[badkarma]

Whether OSP will actually prevent piracy at all is another issue. I don't think it'll stop outright piracy at all. But it will prevent resale and it'll also prevent lending/swapping/borrowing amongst friends, so maybe those things alone will be enough to decrease those "lost sales" by a few percent (and increase revenues by ten times that amount). Time will tell.

That's actually something I'd not considered, however that makes me even stronger on my position.
Intentionally stopping people from lending/swapping/borrowing a product they've purchased is an infringement of many countries consumer rights, and they seem to want to use that to recoup their lost revenue because they can't combat piracy... :o

That's worse than the punishment of legitimate customers by "you can only play when we say you can".
Now we're expected to pay for the pirates copies as well? :down:

[Heckler]

Just found these forums... and I too was looking forward to SHV... Been a fan of the series for years and have just bought SHIII and IV from steam... after I SHIII & Race Driver 2 (retail versions) screwed up 2 DVDRW drives with that starforce crap.

I have an excellent internet connection, almost 20Mb/s with download speeds ranging from 1700-2100k/s and a good upload speed too. My connection is stable 99.9% of the time... but my ISP often does their maintenance and upgrades between 2-3am and my connection often goes down. Add to that my wireless connection sometimes drops out in the house due to the locations of my router and my gaming PC.. and the expense of having phone lines moved or network cables run around the exterior of the house.

I shall 'NOT' be buying SHV and my decision to do so is based entirely upon the inclusion of this restrictive and ridiculous DRM. Ubisoft have lost another customer, and so has any other games company who includes anything like this.

I don't mind steam games, you activate it the first time you play and then play as and when you want... no need to be online. But any game that installs subversive security checks on my machine without my permission, or tries to force me to jump through hoops and dictate how/when I am allowed to play... simply will not get my money and will seriously make me reconsider future purchases (even if drm is removed).

All this does is encourage piracy, it makes the legitimate consumer angry and annoyed and inevitably some will reconsider how/where/when they source their games. :arrgh!: I'm not condoning it, just stating the obvious and inevitable facts.

At the moment, I'm quite happy playing SHIII & IV and now I've discovered this wonderful place... looking at adding a couple of mods to SHII

[onelifecrisis]

Intentionally stopping people from lending/swapping/borrowing a product they've purchased is an infringement of many countries consumer rights

Which countries?

[Sulikate]

Which countries?
Brazil, for example. That's where I live :arrgh!:

[DaveR]

:down: damn, what i disappointment. 'was' looking forward to this game. having to be connected to internet is garbage. so it is now off my 'buy' list. (does ubi soft ads say anything about internet connection?).

so now they have minimum piracy, also have minimum users; so where do they win? :nope:

[Skullcowboy]

No, the piracy excuse is not bull, it's real. Study after study shows huge numbers of people playing games without buying them. There was one article by a small game developer, he said that when they released a patch for their game, it was downloaded 80,000 times in the first few weeks. But they had only sold something like 15,000 copies of the game. :nope: Piracy is wide-spread. I was on break between classes today, two of my classmates were watching Avatar :shifty:

Get used to the idea that game developers will be moving to the Xbox and PS3 consoles, they are not going to invest millions into games and only a few people actually pay for them.

Small game developers like Michael Fitch are leaving the industry. Can't say I blame them.

I had read this with interest a couple of years ago. I am probably going to get flamed over this, but I am about done with this topic here anyway. I have aired my opinions so I'll move back to the SHIII page as that is why I came here in the first place.

As Mr Fitch states, making PC games is a tough business. And piracy was only one of the issues he touches on. Again, he seems to be pulling numbers out of the air, just like a lot of the industry does. But one thing I gotta say.

They REALLY shot themselves in the foot with the form of DRM they chose.

Tech support headaches and the word of mouth disaster can be directly linked to this. But it was the lousy pirates, not the DRM, you say. The DRM was there because they were SOOOOOOOOO worried about the pirates instead of their customers.

I could point to a number of indie game makers who are doing well (here is one:http://arcengames.com/aiwar_features.php) just as you can find a number who aren't. As can be done in ANY industry. The rant about piracy killing ALL of the content makers (books, film, music, games, etc) is just that. A rant. Is it a problem? Most assuredly. But it isn't the catch all they want us to think it is. Educate yourselves about it, and not just from one perspective.

Tata for now and have a GREAT day. :sunny:

[gt500]

This overkill form of DRM is really disheartening. I so much love the Silent hunter series and was looking forward to buying SHV the day it was released. My heart bleeds that I will not be able to support the developers.

Sorry to say like many others I will not be purchasing a game I want to play due to the DRM they are implementing.


Sorry the cost for this game is TOO HIGH, and I am not referring to the financial cost.

[scrapser]

Create an offline account, problem solved.

That doesn't work with Bioshock 2. You simply cannot save the game unless you are actively connected to the server. You can play offline after installing the game and setting up an account but you cannot save the game unless you are logged on to the server. This has a lot of people very upset.

I don't think SH5 has gone this far but they are getting close...like one step away from the looks of things.

[razark]

That doesn't work with Bioshock 2. You simply cannot save the game unless you are actively connected to the server. You can play offline after installing the game and setting up an account but you cannot save the game unless you are logged on to the server. This has a lot of people very upset.

I don't think SH5 has gone this far but they are getting close...like one step away from the looks of things.

No, SH5 goes further. You can't save unless you are logged in, because you can't play unless you are logged in.

[scrapser]

No, SH5 goes further. You can't save unless you are logged in, because you can't play unless you are logged in.

Well then SH5 and Bioshock 2 both have the same set up. I know it's only two titles being discussed here but it does look like this is where things are headed for all.

This whole thing is starting to remind me of the movie, "THX 1138".

[Wulfmann]

Oh come on, just click and read, that will take you a week? That's pretty scary.


I went to public schools in the 60's so that would translate to months for someone in public schools today.

You can beatch about me beatching as long as I can beatch.:rotfl2:which is what I like about you Neal. I feel like I can be honest and you don't take it personal and vise verse.

Now for those that say anyone who complains about DRM is a Pirate you can KMA
Ships-R-us there may be a pirate problem but if I had a blood clot in my brain the fact a bullet to the head would cure it does not mean shooting myself in the head is the thing to do.

Your entire threads validates my point on having an offline dedicated game PC that has little to nothing running and no way to be attacked from outside and then you insist I am a pirate because I don't want to let UBI have control over my PC and at the same time proof I should have a PC that does not have the same crap you want me to have on it.

You may not be an idiot but you sound like one with your contradicting accusatory remarks.

You can't have it both ways SRus.

This is simple really.
UBI has the right to make a game that requires whatever it wants to make it run.
I have the right not to buy it and the right to say why.
That does not make me a pirate and anyone using that excuse is an idiot and proves they have no valid argument
I have met some serious hackers who now work for companies preventing hacking and everyone of them tells me no matter how good a pirated copy the only way to have a good clean game is to buy it. It is one thing to give it a try but not worth the trouble if you like it and want to play it. Being on dial up, yeah, I am looking to DL 10GB of a game. I am beginning to think idiot is too much of a compliment:rotfl2:

Wulfmann

[Brag]

Gentlemen!

Tempers are rising as DTD Day approaches. We are beginning to see too many personal squables and the hurling of insults. This is happening even among people with equal viewpoints.

The proDRMies, as few as they are, are entitled to their opinions.
The Anti DRM Freedom Fighters should remain calm and softly and privately chuckle at the ProDRMies heroic efforts of swimming against the flood of legitimate outrage.

DTD Day = Death to DRM Day.

:salute::salute::salute::salute:

[scrapser]

As a side note, I remember chatting with Jez San, the author of the Amiga game "StarGlider" by Rainbird Software back in 1987 on Compuserve. He told me at the time the average shelf life of a game before it was hacked was 45 days. I wonder what it is now? I bet it's probably much shorter.

[Nisgeis]

Hacking is very different to cracking. Hacking = cretaing POKEs for infinite lives and ammo. The protection systems were designed to stop the competition from looking at the game code, not to stop copying. Back in those days, all you had to do to copy a game was to put it in a tape to tape dubber and anyone could do that. The copy protection relied on having info requested from pages on a manual (a printed one!) or other objects supplied with the game. When disks arrived though, they started to get a bit more devious and started putting electronic copy protection in.

[scrapser]

Hacking is very different to cracking. Hacking = cretaing POKEs for infinite lives and ammo. The protection systems were designed to stop the competition from looking at the game code, not to stop copying. Back in those days, all you had to do to copy a game was to put it in a tape to tape dubber and anyone could do that. The copy protection relied on having info requested from pages on a manual (a printed one!) or other objects supplied with the game. When disks arrived though, they started to get a bit more devious and started putting electronic copy protection in.

Yes I remember the old system of being asked for a specific word on a certain line on a certain page in the game manual. I also remember the day I was selling my Commodore 128 to buy an Amiga 500 and having a guy come to my door asking if I wanted to join the pirate club he belonged to. He had a box full of floppy disks with many of the games that were current at the time and photo copies of the game manuals.

I told him to get lost.

[Nordmann]

...and what about developers producing games for PC?

you're gonna tell me they had an incredible success last year?

Did I say that? No I didn't, please don't read between lines that do not exist. The games industry as a whole is suffering, we have seen quite a few developers go under, or bought out by larger companies. The fact is, unless you can provide a product people want to buy, and can afford to buy, you are not going to succeed in this line of business.

What I was referring to, if you re-read my post, is the statement that the console industry is in a better position than that of PCs, which clearly is not the case at all. Thus, abandoning the PC market in favour of the "play and throw away" market is a damned fool idea. There are no more opportunities to be had with consoles, as that of the PC, in fact for games such as this, there are even less. Coupled with the fact that the next generation of consoles are already in development, it will always be an area of limited lifespan, unlike PCs.

Ubi will not abandon PC games, simply because their sales of one game in particular happen to drop off. What they will do, or should do in any case, is go back to the board room and discuss the DRM issue at length. Obviously this has stuck a bad note with their customers, which is exactly what you want to avoid during this troubled economic period. Customers vote with their wallets, for wont of a better description, and that vote determines your company's success or failure.

[Heckler]

Grand Theft Auto IV is anther one... to play properly you must have a rockstar account & a MS games for windows account. To play the same game you started.. you must be logged into GRW at the very least.

You can play offline once activated... but it starts a 'new' game for you and won't let you continue the one you may have spent hours working your way through.

Another game where the DRM wasn't advertised and another game I got caught out by and felt cheated.

Needless to say it got put up on a shelf and hasn't been touched more than once or twice in the last 12 months.

Been caught out to many times in the past... so I now have a zero tolerance policy on games with restrictive DRM... If they want my money, let me play my property how I want to. Same goes for the music and film industries... Piracy is a problem they helped to create and their refusal to take sensible precautions that do not punish the legitimate consumers is only making it worse.

[mookiemookie]

As a side note, I remember chatting with Jez San, the author of the Amiga game "StarGlider" by Rainbird Software back in 1987 on Compuserve. He told me at the time the average shelf life of a game before it was hacked was 45 days. I wonder what it is now? I bet it's probably much shorter.

Many are already cracked before the street release date.

[Brag]

Heckler, welcome aboard :salute:

[onelifecrisis]

Yes I remember the old system of being asked for a specific word on a certain line on a certain page in the game manual. I also remember the day I was selling my Commodore 128 to buy an Amiga 500 and having a guy come to my door asking if I wanted to join the pirate club he belonged to. He had a box full of floppy disks with many of the games that were current at the time and photo copies of the game manuals.

I told him to get lost.

I remember when games started using that word-from-the-manual trick. I remember my dad got a game which had that kind of "DRM" and he was outraged at the inconvenience of it. The funny thing was that his copy was a pirated copy of the game, complete with a photocopied user manual, and he was still outraged. :rotfl2: :nope: :roll:

[Stryck_9]

I lurk and dont post but wanted to toss in my 2 cents on this I started playing sub sims with Silent Service 1 & 2 and Aces of the Deep I Love SH3 (esp with GWX) like SH4 & was looking forward to this one but now am putting it on hold due to the DRM.
I dont mind registering my cd key,guid or some other method to show I bought my copy but I am not keen on having to be connected to play and having my games saved on the ubi servers. I have played my share of Ubi online games and remember many days/nights when the servers were down and no gaming was possible.So despite how lovely the graphics are and how curious i am about the new iteration it goes on hold until we see what actually happens

[piri_reis]

I remember when games started using that word-from-the-manual trick. I remember my dad got a game which had that kind of "DRM" and he was outraged at the inconvenience of it. The funny thing was that his copy was a pirated copy of the game, complete with a photocopied user manual, and he was still outraged. :rotfl2: :nope: :roll:

Yeah those were the days!
Monkey Island had this printout of a wheel, a spinner, where you matched two faces that came up on game start, and put in a certain code.. :|\\
Wasn't the internet days where it would've been scanned and distributed easily.

Dial-A-Pirate :haha:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Secret_of_Monkey_Island_Manual_%26_Dial-a-Pirate.jpg

[guynoir]

Wow, that new DRM from Ubisoft is really sounding great! Apparently PC Gamer especially loves it: </sarcasm>

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02/17/you-maniacs/

"Incredibly, the worst is true in Assassin’s Creed 2 – and, it appears, will be for Settlers 7 too. No matter what you’re doing, no matter what the reason, the game will refuse to let you continue playing if it decides you’re not online. You’re dumped right back to a menu, losing any progress made since the last checkpoint. If you don’t have a constant, uninterrupted internet connection, you can’t play. Let’s list some of the reasons you might drop your net connection, shall we? Router crash, ISP problems, cat playing with the cable, microwave muddling your wi-fi connection, train going into a tunnel when you’re on 3G, Windows having a networking befuddlement, someone else in the house torrenting the bandwidth dry…

"Incredible. In-cred-i-ble. It’s like someone taking away your food mid-meal because your napkin’s fallen on the floor. It makes us want to pull an expression we’re not physically capable of, like this (http://toddlp.deviantart.com/art/Screaming-Man-120683057)."

I bought SH1+exp, 3, and 4+exp partly for the fun and partly to support sub-simming, but excuse me if I continue to boycott Silent Hunter V, no matter how much fun it potentially is, until Ubisoft strips this junk out of it... :nope:

edit. Oh, and this could potentially be the last thing many virtual U-Boat captains see in their short, eventful careers:

http://i50.tinypic.com/33mrhhg.jpg

:D

[onelifecrisis]

Wow, that new DRM from Ubisoft is really sounding great! Apparently PC Gamer especially loves it: </sarcasm>

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02/17/you-maniacs/

"Incredibly, the worst is true in Assassin’s Creed 2 – and, it appears, will be for Settlers 7 too. No matter what you’re doing, no matter what the reason, the game will refuse to let you continue playing if it decides you’re not online. You’re dumped right back to a menu, losing any progress made since the last checkpoint. If you don’t have a constant, uninterrupted internet connection, you can’t play. Let’s list some of the reasons you might drop your net connection, shall we? Router crash, ISP problems, cat playing with the cable, microwave muddling your wi-fi connection, train going into a tunnel when you’re on 3G, Windows having a networking befuddlement, someone else in the house torrenting the bandwidth dry…

"Incredible. In-cred-i-ble. It’s like someone taking away your food mid-meal because your napkin’s fallen on the floor. It makes us want to pull an expression we’re not physically capable of, like this (http://toddlp.deviantart.com/art/Screaming-Man-120683057)."

I bought SH1+exp, 3, and 4+exp partly for the fun and partly to support sub-simming, but excuse me if I continue to boycott Silent Hunter V, no matter how much fun it potentially is, until Ubisoft strips this junk out of it... :nope:

Wow, they didn't pull their punches, and neither did the PC Gamer blog that they linked to. Now I'm getting interested. If the gaming press call in unison for a boycott then all you OSP haters may just get your wish! :yeah:

[piri_reis]

Wow, they didn't pull their punches, and neither did the PC Gamer blog that they linked to. Now I'm getting interested. If the gaming press call in unison for a boycott then all you OSP haters may just get your wish! :yeah:

Yep, here's the link to PCGamer blog about their review of Assassins Creed2
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235290&site=pcg

"The game first starts the Ubisoft Game Launcher, which checks for updates. If you try to launch the game when you're not online, you hit an error message right away. So I tried a different test: start the game while online, play a little, then unplug my net cable. This is the same as what happens if your net connection drops momentarily, your router is rebooted, or the game loses its connection to Ubisoft's 'Master servers'. The game stopped, and I was dumped back to a menu screen - all my progress since it last autosaved was lost."

[Jimbuna]

Gentlemen!

Tempers are rising as DTD Day approaches. We are beginning to see too many personal squables and the hurling of insults. This is happening even among people with equal viewpoints.

The proDRMies, as few as they are, are entitled to their opinions.
The Anti DRM Freedom Fighters should remain calm and softly and privately chuckle at the ProDRMies heroic efforts of swimming against the flood of legitimate outrage.

DTD Day = Death to DRM Day.

:salute::salute::salute::salute:

LMAO....the truth is out there, does anyone know the url? :DL

[martes86]

"[...] The game stopped, and I was dumped back to a menu screen - all my progress since it last autosaved was lost."

What a major piece of "c-that". That ain't no longer protecting their rights, it's a down unprofessional development which destroys game progress if disconnected (which results in life-time lost to a dumb programming logic), it's just plain wrong. (And note I'm note critizising any Devs, but the final product that ends up in the user's hands, and that is a direct consequence of the corp's management incompetence to bring up a better solution other than just screwing around with those that make possible that they earn money).

[Nordmann]

You see, this is why it's worth waiting a while before buying it. If Ubi continue to receive unfavourable press, you know they are going to drop their DRM like a live grenade! After all, there's nothing worse then bad press, and I have a feeling there's plenty more where this came from.

The next few weeks should be interesting, hopefully Ubi will see sense, patch the game and remove their internet requirement (though I doubt it). In the mean time, I finally got around to buying UBM, so I'll be playing that while I wait for more info.

[Nisgeis]

Let's hope they review it, taking into account the disconnections and rate it acordingly. This has annoyed me slightly, especially as Neal's preview was played through a net connection loss. It seems it didn't have the fully fledged DRM system in it then.

[Nordmann]

It seems it didn't have the fully fledged DRM system in it then.

Likely on purpose. After all, they don't want previewers seeing the full extent of the restrictions this system will impose upon how, when and where you play.

[Onkel Neal]

Likely on purpose. After all, they don't want previewers seeing the full extent of the restrictions this system will impose upon how, when and where you play.

Let's hope they review it, taking into account the disconnections and rate it acordingly. This has annoyed me slightly, especially as Neal's preview was played through a net connection loss. It seems it didn't have the fully fledged DRM system in it then.

That's possible, but it would be very unethical, imo. I asked and they tell me yes, exact same DRM. I am following up on that with another source.

I asked a high ranking Ubisoft manager (not the dev team) about the DRM, I said I wanted to relay some more information to the community, and here is our exchange.


Me: Per our phone conversation, let me share some thoughts with you. You mentioned a detailed message explaining the exact nature and characteristics of the DRM, I think that's a good idea. It should as accurate as possible. What is it, how does it work, what kind of load times can a player expect, server up-time, and how will it affect the gameplay?




Hi Neal,

Thanks again for your email and the many salient points that you bring up. There is a lot of stuff in there and I hope to cover it all!

In a nutshell, our online services system was designed for two main purposes: to help combat piracy and to allow us to offer services to our customers that had been specifically asked for by them. Obviously we're not able to give out all of the details about how it works - we're not here to give a head start to hackers - but I know that the main focus of many comments is regarding the permanent online connection requirement.

Basically the online connection allows us to periodically authenticate users - specifically to ensure that only one person is using an account at a time. And of course it allows us to save games so that the player can re-access the game from wherever they left off and on any computer where they have installed the game. The permanent online requirement is clearly stated on the front and back of every box and we are working with our online partners to ensure that it's noted on their product pages too, as well as included in all point-of-purchase marketing materials. We're making every effort to ensure that anyone who buys our products that include the online services system will understand this requirement before purchasing the game.

The system of course sends information to our servers. The only personal information that it sends it that which is required to sign up for a Ubisoft account. The actual exchange of information while playing the game is very minimal. Players will only need the minimal broadband connection and the game runs with less that 50 kbit per second. For example, if you play Assassin's Creed II for a total of 20 hours, the game will have only transferred 2 MB of data. The game play won't be affected by such small amount of data.

It's clear that the community is sceptical that this platform will be crack-proof and that is understandable. But I cannot stress strongly enough the effect that piracy has had on the PC market. If you want to scale it back to the very basic - we feel that this effort to combat piracy allows us to continue investing creative resources into PC development.

Can we guarantee that the platform is crack-proof? I guess it's impossible to make that guarantee but I can say that we would not be releasing the system if we didn't believe that it's worth its salt.

Do we know that this kind of thing is bothersome to a certain group of gamers? Absolutely. And we're not happy to be frustrating a group of people who play our games. But we do feel that the services that we can offer with the system offset some of the frustration and, more importantly, the efforts that we put into limiting piracy will ensure that Ubisoft can continue investing in developing true AAA game experiences for PC gamers..

Thanks again!

[Steeltrap]

What a load of marketing bollocks.

It might be interesting to ask "what is it about your system that is superior to Steam (which many PC gamers accept) with its off-line ability?".

Let's see them answer that. All they do is offer hot air about all these 'things' they can 'offer', completely ignoring the fact that a large number of people are not interested in any scenario that mandates online connection for a single player game. So they say it will "allow us to offer services to our customers that had been specifically asked for by them". What services, exactly, and how many are asking? They might want to get some of these customers who have asked for this to post in various places, as the majority of traffic in most sites I've visited is universally damning.

I sincerely hope they get a real slap in the face when it comes to release time.

And if the SH franchise dies as a result of their insistence on this system? There are worse things than death.....

[KarlKoch]

So they say it will "allow us to offer services to our customers that had been specifically asked for by them". What services, exactly, and how many are asking?

Selling them the other 2 years of u-boat war for 14,99$ each. Oh, wait.

And what did i read on the FAQ of the Ubi-DRM? "What happens when the servers are to be shut down?" Answer: "We will release a patch [...]". Wasnt there something with SH3 and Starforce? Removed in patch dunnowhat? And no official patch allowing me to play without using you-know-what?

[Ships-R-Us]

I want to thank Neal for sharing this with us. Ubisoft is clearly stating that they are only trying to stay alive in the "pc gaming market financially, and have been forced to implement DRM. In short I support the DRM requirement.

If my money was on the line with reference to a major investment, I certainly would take all reasonable and necessary steps to insure my investment, and I believe likewise all members here share this same view.

Ubisoft is taking these measures only because they were forced to.

[Steeltrap]

I want to thank Neal for sharing this with us. Ubisoft is clearly stating that they are only trying to stay alive in the "pc gaming market, financially and have been forced to implement DRM. In short I support the DRM requirement.

If my money was on the line with reference to a major investment, I certainly would take all reasonable and necessary steps to insure my investment, and I believe likewise all members here share this same view.

Ubisoft is taking these measures only because they were forced to.

While I can see the point you are making, I offer a contrary point:

What happens to your business if you feel the only viable strategy is to implement measures your customers absolutely will not accept?

Seems to me you are acknowledging that you are unable to develop a strategy that allows you to remain viable, as a significant drop in sales due to your 'solution' means your chosen medicine is as bad, if not worse, than the disease.

[As an aside, I recommend you avoid statements such as I believe likewise all members here share this same view. People here never have the same view on anything; claiming otherwise is either naiive or arrogant.]

[MasterCaine]

Thanks for posting that Ubi email exchange, Neal. :DL

What they are claiming is total bs. This move to DRM and pay-as-you-play is mainly to kill-off the lifespan, resale of and exchange of pc games. Yes, it's that simple.

[Sailor Steve]

This move to DRM and pay-as-you-play is mainly to kill-off the lifespan, resale of and exchange of pc games. Yes, it's that simple.
I'm not astute enough to figure out things like that. I never would have thought of it myself, but now that you mention that, it makes as much sense as anything else I've heard.:sunny:

[Méo]

to implement measures your customers absolutely will not accept?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but DRM had already been used in other games before.

Did the average customer accepted it?

[Ships-R-Us]

While I can see the point you are making, I offer a contrary point:

What happens to your business if you feel the only viable strategy is to implement measures your customers absolutely will not accept?

Seems to me you are acknowledging that you are unable to develop a strategy that allows you to remain viable, as a significant drop in sales due to your 'solution' means your chosen medicine is as bad, if not worse, than the disease.

I understand your viewpoint. However, the consumers that will not accept DRM simply will not be purchasing the game with DRM being only a minor reason. I believe there will be a large majority of Subsim that will never play SH5 for those reasons. However I''ll bet that SH5 will now be a financial success for Ubisoft.

[Méo]

This move to DRM and pay-as-you-play is

Pay-as-you-play ...this is new to me, where was it confirmed?

[MasterCaine]

Pay-as-you-play ...this is new to me, where was it confirmed?

As far as I know, it hasn't happened yet with Ubi, but many pc game publishers are now moving in that direction. DRM is just the first step. Online pay-as-you-play pc games are for the most part profitable.. at least for a while. Offline pc games are becoming less and less profitable. When today's pc game publishers see modders expanding the lifespan of their offline games into years, they see potential future sales lost- dollars being flushed down the toilet. Whether we like it or not, the future of gaming, movies, and music is moving online to pay-per-use.

[Méo]

but many pc game publishers are now moving in that direction

Can you be more precise, give links and/or games that are currently being develop for ''pay-as-you-play''?

[Brag]

For latest on DRM, check out The Press Blasts Ubi thread.
PC World link is on the first post

DRM works a lot worse than we had imagined:down::down::down::down:

[MasterCaine]

Can you be more precise, give links and/or games that are currently being develop for ''pay-as-you-play''?

I'm talking about online games that require customers to pay monthly fees.　That's where the money is at for PC game publishers now. Just look at the online World of Warcraft. I assume that due to it's extreme popularity, it's still quite profitable for the publishing company. Plus, many of these pc game publishers like to frequently release purchasable add-ons that open up new areas of the game.

[Méo]

Just look at the online World of Warcraft

Many people here will tell you that there is no comparison to make with SH5 and World of Warcraft.

Besides if in those games you pay the same monthly fee, regardless to how many hours you spend playing it. So your ''pay-as-you-play'' is somewhat misleading, especially when it has never been confirmed on SH5.


So to recap, you say that what they are claiming is total bs.

What they are claiming is total bs. This move to DRM and pay-as-you-play is mainly to kill-off the lifespan, resale of and exchange of pc games. Yes, it's that simple.

Be careful when you say that someone else claiming is total bs, because they could easily say that what you claim is total bs when you talk about ''pay-as-you-play'' in SH5.

[MasterCaine]

So to recap, you say that what they are claiming is total bs.

Be careful when you say that someone else claiming is total bs, because they could easily say that what you claim is total bs when you talk about ''pay-as-you-play'' in SH5.

Step off your condescending high horse for a second, fan boy. Don't attack me for using the terms pay-as-you-play and monthly subscription fees as the same thing. They are both pay to play.

[Méo]

Ok, where did I attack you? quote?

Step off your condescending high horse for a second, fan boy.

And this is not an attack?

----

Fan boy, where do I say that I support DRM?

Just because I raise up some doubts, you assume that I support DRM?

I think most of us would come back anytime to the good old days of PC gaming.

This new direction with DRM is just not a big drama for me.

[MasterCaine]

You pretty much made out that I am full of bs for calling Ubi on the pirating claim as a reason to justify their crap DRM scheme. Plus, maybe we each have our own idea of what pay-to-play-means.

And sorry for the fan boy remark. Let's not get into a squabble here, ok? ;)

[KeithMoonsLiver]

It won't stop people from pirating it, the most it will do is delay it a few days before it's out there. DRM like this just makes it even more attractive to pirate the game, since you will be able to play it offline. It's like gun control- it hurts the people who follow the law in the first place, but has little affect on the people that break the law in the first place. I've bought SH2, 3 and 4 but there's no way I'll buy this one.

[Onkel Neal]

Refuted.


Finally, on the contentious topic of DRM, aside from Spore whose audience may well have fallen victim to DRM-induced hysteria, the presence of intrusive DRM appears not to increase piracy of a game. For example Call of Duty 4, Assassin's Creed and Crysis all have no intrusive DRM whatsoever: they all use basic SafeDisc copy protection with no install limits, no online activation, and no major reports of protection-related issues. Yet all were pirated heavily enough to have the dubious distinction of being in the Top 10 downloaded games list. But strangely absent from the list are several popular games which do use more intrusive DRM: BioShock, Crysis Warhead, and Mass Effect. This indicates quite clearly that intrusive DRM is not the main reason why some games are pirated more heavily than others. We examine this issue in more detail in the Copy Protection & DRM section.


This is the most insightful, factful, and well-researched article about PC games and piracy around, by noted tech author Koroush Ghazi:

PC Game Piracy Examined (http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html)

Hopefully there are some here who have long enough attention spans to read this all the way through without resorting to a session of HALO. It covers Steam, Starforce, the disparity between PC and console sales, and more. You can learn a lot from it. Hopefully you can learn to stop parroting the same stuff you heard from everyone else.

[Letum]

From Neal's Link:
Interestingly enough, there's very little in the way of actual evidence that StarForce does anything harmful [...]
By 2006 it was too late. [etc.]

That's plain wrong.

Starforce admired in an interview at: http://reclaimyourgame.com/
that a starforce version was a likely cause of windows failing to
recognise optical drives.

The class action case over IDE drives been put into a slower mode
was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. That would not have
happened with out some good evidence. Very slow speeds have
caused ophysical errors in some, but not all, CD drives.

The enforced reboots without chance to save your work is also
admitted by starforce (although not present in current SF versions).

[Sheppard]

My internet connection has been quite spotty the last two weeks, which coincidentally matches up nicely with the SNOWPOCALYPSE I and II that Washington DC just got hit with (30~ inches of snow!!) and I get a lot of LOST CONNECTION to internet, and then five seconds later, the intertubes work again.

I assume this is due to all the snow causing line outages, not all of comcasts network is IIRC underground.

So I would keep getting that "MAIN MENU" screen A LOT.

This removes SH5 from a "buy in six months" game (due to Type VII only and lack of modding to go past '43) to none at all.

I'm willing to put up with one time only internet activication each time you install the game -- but to have a 100% reliable intertube connection for every single moment of gameplay???

[Steeltrap]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but DRM had already been used in other games before.

Did the average customer accepted it?

I can't speak for ALL titles that might have a DRM equivalent.

What I meant was the specifics of this system when applied to an off line, single player game.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that a lot of single player devotees are not inclined to accept this system when there seems little to recommend it from potential customers' perspectives. That's why I suggested the business model, applied to this particular title, seemed potentially to be problematic at best.

An alternative is using Steam for verification, with a monthly requirement for re-verification, otherwise allowing off line play between those times. I suspect most players would not have anywhere near as many objections to such a scheme vs. the current proposed OSP.

That's before we consider the issue of consumers being forced to have a different account etc. for each publisher, which again flies in the face of customer-friendly thinking.

Cheers

[horden]

Neal what do you know about people playing High end games with no connection ?


I' have bought all versions of Silent Hunter (beging with Microprose Silent service in 1985 on Atary) but I think that for me it's now the end of the story because I use much of the time SH4 on my laptop in my countryside's house during week-ends and doesn't have an internet connection in this rest house.

The idea to buy an other internet connection in this place, only for SH5 simply means nothing for me unless Ubi pay me this connection.

I really can't understand Ubi. If piracy make them lost so much money, why doing Silent hunter III, and after Silent Hunter IV and now SH5 ?

Do they lost so much money or do they want to make much more money ?

In the counterpart, are they now able to sell a finish product ? or as usual expect on somebodyelse's party to finish the work like the user's community do for free and for a long time now.

More money, less job, more limited use, it's a policy... but until when ?

I would like to thanks all the people, the third parties how upgrade SH4, make it so playable and interesting. It's you and not Ubi how made me so confident to buy the next Ubi's sub product. Thanks to you folks ! I can tell you that yer work 'll stand on my computer, after March 2010 and that for a long life now !


The bottle of champagne will fail to break on the hull of the SH5 for its bathème. I'll Don't go on board !

[jokerl90]

Refuted.



This is the most insightful, factful, and well-researched article about PC games and piracy around, by noted tech author Koroush Ghazi:

PC Game Piracy Examined (http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html)

Hopefully there are some here who have long enough attention spans to read this all the way through without resorting to a session of HALO. It covers Steam, Starforce, the disparity between PC and console sales, and more. You can learn a lot from it. Hopefully you can learn to stop parroting the same stuff you heard from everyone else.


Koroush Ghazi is the one person on the internet in who I trust absolutely. If he says it, I believe it. If he gives advise on something, I take it. I look in on his site every day. I remember when he wrote this, I never really read it because I'm not at all interested the issue of piracy, until now.
While I don't agree with the way ubisoft is going with this, I just got a reminder that there are two sides to any issue.

[Seafireliv]

I like the way Stalker Call of Pripyat did it. No Activation except a code, but those who so love Steam can have a Steam version- everyone`s happy. Stalker just got my £30... SHV just got thin air. You can`t beat Options.

What the? My Avatar turned into Popeye? o....k...

[TarJak]

While I don't agree with the way ubisoft is going with this, I just got a reminder that there are two sides to any issue.I think there are many more than 3 sides to this issue and I can think of four off the top of my head. Most of them with conflicting priorities and aims.

But that's life in general.

[Seafireliv]

The only side we should be concerned with is the CUSTOMER side. Let UBI business men and women be concerned with THEIR greedy side and bonuses. Do you guys think they`re considering our side? All they`re thinking about is lining their pockets. they`ll only consider the customer side if the customer doesn`t buy. Get with reality.

It`s a battle. If UBI win, we`re all worse off. If the customer wins, everyone benefits.

[JScones]

That's possible, but it would be very unethical, imo. I asked and they tell me yes, exact same DRM. I am following up on that with another source.

I asked a high ranking Ubisoft manager (not the dev team) about the DRM, I said I wanted to relay some more information to the community, and here is our exchange.

<snip>
The system of course sends information to our servers. The only personal information that it sends it that which is required to sign up for a Ubisoft account. The actual exchange of information while playing the game is very minimal. Players will only need the minimal broadband connection and the game runs with less that 50 kbit per second. For example, if you play Assassin's Creed II for a total of 20 hours, the game will have only transferred 2 MB of data. The game play won't be affected by such small amount of data.<snip>
The bold part says to me, Neal, that you do not have a "full" DRM/OSP copy of SH5.

[Gatt]

From gamegurumania news:

Ubisoft's New PC DRM Really Requires Net Access (http://www.ggmania.com/?smsid=28537) -

As reported on the UK PC Gamer (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235290&site=pcg), they have found that while testing review copies of the PC port of Assassin's Creed 2 they got kicked out of playing the game whenever they happen to lose their internet connection. Which simply means your game quits and you lose progress!

[THE_MASK]

The comment posted on that site is the reason Ubi have the THING . Have i preordered SH5 though , no . Stuck between a rock and a hard place .

[Darkreaver1980]

I preordered it. im connected 24/7 anyway, so im fully supporting the new DRM. Hope the pirates will have a hard time on it.

If Ubisoft enables some kind of chat (youre online anyway) than i will even buy 2 copies :)

[GREY WOLF 3]

More bad news:damn::damn:

[urfisch]

I preordered it. im connected 24/7 anyway, so im fully supporting the new DRM. Hope the pirates will have a hard time on it.

If Ubisoft enables some kind of chat (youre online anyway) than i will even buy 2 copies :)

lol, another one who believes the marketing department from ubisoft. go and buy it. but give us some screens and footage here, please.

[Darkreaver1980]

lol, another one who believes the marketing department from ubisoft. go and buy it. but give us some screens and footage here, please.

Will do it. Or do you think that DRM will prevent it? :haha::haha::haha:

Only thing that can happend is that the server is overloaded in the first 2-3 days, after this it will run 24/7 without any problems

[piri_reis]

Will do it. Or do you think that DRM will prevent it? :haha::haha::haha:

Only thing that can happend is that the server is overloaded in the first 2-3 days, after this it will run 24/7 without any problems

Ok ok, you obviously didn't read any answers posted to the thread you opened the other day... You'll learn with your own experiences, so go ahead try to grab a boiling pot.

[Ishigami]

This will be interesting.
Afaik the only things that rarely get cracked are hardware protections like a USB dongle.
Looking forward to see UbiSoft failing because IMO they deserve it.

[Nordmann]

I preordered it. im connected 24/7 anyway, so im fully supporting the new DRM. Hope the pirates will have a hard time on it.

If Ubisoft enables some kind of chat (youre online anyway) than i will even buy 2 copies :)

Definitely a Ubi employee.

[Darkreaver1980]

Definitely a Ubi employee.

youre definitely a EA employe, trying to bash ubi down :haha:

[Nordmann]

Nice try mate, but I have as much dislike for EA as Ubi. In fact, I can't say I like any of the major publishers.

[Brag]

A visit to Ubi's AC forum is an enlightning experience. :yep:


Ubisoft's DRM being tested... - Topic Powered by Social Strata (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/1801042338)

[Onkel Neal]

The bold part says to me, Neal, that you do not have a "full" DRM/OSP copy of SH5.

You may be right, we'll see in about 5 days or so.

[JScones]

Why five days? :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

From Neal's Link:


That's plain wrong.

Starforce admired in an interview at: http://reclaimyourgame.com/
that a starforce version was a likely cause of windows failing to
recognise optical drives.

The class action case over IDE drives been put into a slower mode
was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. That would not have
happened with out some good evidence. Very slow speeds have
caused ophysical errors in some, but not all, CD drives.

The enforced reboots without chance to save your work is also
admitted by starforce (although not present in current SF versions).

Wonderful, you provide a link to a page that does not mention optical drives this interview. Can you fine tune your citation a little?

[longam]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162040

:O:

[Lanzfeld]

I believe that Steel Beasts Pro uses it and it is the hardest security for pirates to crack. Why wouldnt all games go to this solution?:06:

Cost? I would pay $10 more for a dongle version.

[Lanzfeld]

Nevermind. I figured it out.

The goal was always is to be able to charge a monthly fee in the future to allow access to the game and you cannot do that with a dongle.

To think they were claiming that this was to protect them from pirates when it was always $$$. Always is I guess.:shifty:

[Fluffysheap]

I have no problem with Internet authorization at startup - I have a couple dozen games on Steam, and Steam does that as a matter of course, not to mention that Windows itself does it. The problem is that games that have intrusive DRM always seem to come with a lot of attributes that are nothing but a big "screw you!" to the customers, and that's assuming the DRM doesn't itself break your computer which does sometimes happen (which I know as a former Starfarce victim).

Koroush Ghazi is the one person on the internet in who I trust absolutely. If he says it, I believe it. If he gives advise on something, I take it.
If this article is any kind of representative sample you should probably re-evaluate that policy. The article is well written but contains factual errors and some of the links for supporting evidence go to articles which don't provide the claimed evidence. I enjoyed when he cited the fact that the Wikipedia article for SecuROM has a "neutrality disputed" tag as evidence that somehow, this makes SecuROM completely OK. Then there was the time where made an irrelevant (and incorrect) claim that Daemon Tools is a rootkit... immediately followed by a page decrying the straw man argument. I mean, really.

There are also some conclusions which, while not really obviously flawed, I don't agree with. For instance, pretty much everything having to do with Steam. The obvious reason why Steam is popular and other DRM methods are not is that Steam makes the user's life better and other DRM methods make it worse. It has nothing to do with being a Valve fanboy as he surmises (actually I do not even like Counter-Strike).

By tying the game to the user instead of to the computer, the entire nonsense about install limits, activation and validation is rendered irrelevant. Additionally the game can be downloaded as many times as needed onto any computer, and accessed with your password, with no risk of losing or damaging the CD. And Steam can not sell out on launch day. "I am here to pick up my preorder" "Sorry, we have sold out" "What? I have a preorder" "There are no more copies in the store" "OK, I want my money back then" "Sorry, no refunds on preorders". (The manager did eventually give me the refund, at least). Certainly Valve could go bankrupt but I have lost or scratched a CD much more often than Valve has gone out of business, and even if they did, the games would mostly still be playable on the computer on which they are currently installed. I don't even mind occasionally paying more for a Steam game, just because it's worth extra to me to have the game on Steam instead of on a disc!

[pontius]

Dongle can be cracked too and I think its annoying.
Edit: Btw. don't we have enough of these threads already?

[Lanzfeld]

Dongle can be cracked too and I think its annoying.

I didnt say it couldnt be cracked I said that it is one of the hardest to crack.

and yeah, it is REALLY annoying having that dongle plugged in. Please...why get up in the morning? It is soooo annoying!:doh:

[ParaB]

The goal was always is to be able to charge a monthly fee in the future to allow access to the game and you cannot do that with a dongle.

This.

It's nothing new that the gaming industry wants to switch over to a subscription-based model in the not-so-far future. The 1st step is tying games into an account system, which also handily prevents the re-selling of games, since we can't have people buying cheap, second-hand games, no Sir!

The whole DRM-issue has really not much to do with copy-protection but all the more with profit maximizing.

[pontius]

I didnt say it couldnt be cracked I said that it is one of the hardest to crack.
Great, so we have to wait 1 week more for a crack....

[The Enigma]

Dongles can be cracked, however it isn't an easy job (depending on the design of that dongle).

[Seafireliv]

Definitely a Ubi employee.


Nah, just naive. He`ll be whining just like the rest of us when his connections fail and he has to wait hours to get back up then when he phones UBI tech support he gets ignored.

Of course, by then he`s given them his cash and it`ll be too late.

[Tennesse]

I currently own 7 titles by UBI. I have watch this forum, read multiple articles, and reviews on other sites. I have also read the UBI Uplay forum. I can now saw that as long as Ubi require Uplay or any other form of internet connection required I will no longer purchase their titles and that includes SH5.

[Nisgeis]

There are also some conclusions which, while not really obviously flawed, I don't agree with.

I found the same, he just decides something is right and can't see the other side to it. I'll give you an example from the article:

In fact piracy of Portal is an interesting case to examine. A quick search on Mininova currently reveals around 30 active torrents for The Orange Box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Box), a game package released in November 2007 of which Portal was a part. For those who don't know, The Orange Box is famous for being one of the best gaming deals of 2007/2008 - five major games in one package (Half Life 2, HL2: Episode 1, HL2: Episode 2, Team Fortress 2, Portal) all for the price of a standard game, distributed via Steam with no intrusive DRM, and receiving nothing but praise from reviewers and gamers alike.He seems to be unwilling to look at this from the purchaser's point of view. Half Life 2 was billed as being the first part in an episodic series, where each new installment would have a short story and new environments. This was stated as a benefit to the customer, as they could get new content every six months and pay a fraction of the cost of a full title. This was a good idea. Episode One takes much longer than expected to come out, but it's still at a lower price. The fans aren't happy at the delay, but at least they now have HL2 and HL2: Episode One to play.

Then, Episode 2 takes one and a half years to make AND you can't buy it as a standalone product. You HAD to buy it with Portal, TF2, HL2 and HL2: E1. Fans of the series already had two of those games and some were only interested on the Episode Two part, which they had been expecting, as promised at a lower price. So, not much of a bargain now is it? Maybe for people who had NOT SUPPORTED VALVE, it was a great deal, but for those that had, it was a bit of a slap in the face. There was lots of complaining at the time.

I had to wait until The Orange Box came out as a bargain deal. So perhaps the message here is sod supporting the franchise, because they'll screw you over, much better to ignore it and get a great deal because you didn't support the company earlier on.

Looking at Valve again, they released L4D with a promise of more content, but then released L4D2 only a year later and abandonned the L4D game. Another slap in the face for people who supported the company?

It seems that from whichever way you look at you, you are a fool if you are loyal to a publisher, because they'll widdle all over you. Much better, from the consumer's point of view to remain coy, but that isn't good for the publishers - so why do they keep widdling on people?

[Ishigami]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162040

:O:

Which proves nothing to me.
UbiSoft themselves said they would interrupt the game at a certain point if the connection is lost so maybe the implementation is just not complete because it is a preview copy (like it could be with AC2 as well btw) or they have a certain threshold for disconnect times which is nice if you have smaller connection issues but wont rescue your day when UbiSofts server is down e.g. for maintenance or whatever reason there is.
And then it still won’t change that your are dependent on an UbiSoft service even for SP experience, it won’t settle down any security concerns and it certainly won’t re-establish my costumer rights.
So I don’t give a damn, it’s there so I don’t buy SH5 and still laugh about Ubi if it gets cracked.

Btw. is Neal writing a preview?

[Nisgeis]

I' have bought all versions of Silent Hunter<SNIP>

Welcome aboard Horden!

I currently own 7 titles by UBI<SNIP>

Welcome aboard Tennesse!

[Brag]

I just visited Ubi's AC site. The people there are bitching there, too.
I guess, the Ubi forum Gestapo can't deal with the traffic. :D

Maybe Darkreaver should take his sunshine pump to treat dissidents at the jolly Ubi forums.

[Nordmann]

Maybe Darkreaver should take his sunshine pump to treat dissidents at the jolly Ubi forums.

I got a good laugh out of that one! Honestly, rose tinted glasses do not have the ability to change reality, only your perception of said reality.

[horden]

Are we connected Neal ? nothing to say to my message ?

[Brag]

Ubi keeps changing the name. From DRM to OSP, now It's Uplay. What's the matter with them, are they nervous? :D

My suggestion:

Take a donkey, paint stripes on it, then call it a zebra. When that doesn't work, call it a DRMedary. When that doesn't work go to the OSPital for brain surgery.

[Brag]

This.

It's nothing new that the gaming industry wants to switch over to a subscription-based model in the not-so-far future. The 1st step is tying games into an account system, which also handily prevents the re-selling of games, since we can't have people buying cheap, second-hand games, no Sir!

The whole DRM-issue has really not much to do with copy-protection but all the more with profit maximizing.

There is a difference between profit maximizing and fleecing the customer.
:D

[onelifecrisis]

He seems to be unwilling to look at this from the purchaser's point of view. Half Life 2 was billed as being the first part in an episodic series, where each new installment would have a short story and new environments. This was stated as a benefit to the customer, as they could get new content every six months and pay a fraction of the cost of a full title. This was a good idea. Episode One takes much longer than expected to come out, but it's still at a lower price. The fans aren't happy at the delay, but at least they now have HL2 and HL2: Episode One to play.

Are you saying that it's okay to pirate a game because it was delayed?

Then, Episode 2 takes one and a half years to make AND you can't buy it as a standalone product. You HAD to buy it with Portal, TF2, HL2 and HL2: E1. Fans of the series already had two of those games and some were only interested on the Episode Two part, which they had been expecting, as promised at a lower price. So, not much of a bargain now is it? Maybe for people who had NOT SUPPORTED VALVE, it was a great deal, but for those that had, it was a bit of a slap in the face. There was lots of complaining at the time.

Not true. Episode 2 was released on it's own, at a suitably low price, at the same time as the Orange Box. I bought it.

[MasterCaine]

Ubi keeps changing the name. From DRM to OSP, now It's Uplay. What's the matter with them, are they nervous? :D


I do hope you are joking. I haven't heard this. :doh:

Maybe they should rename it UplayIfandWhenWeDecideUplay :88)

[Seafireliv]

I would happily pay £10 extra for a dongle than sit with this 24\7 Activation. With a dongle the game is MINE to play anywhere. UBI`S draconian DRM prevents ease of freedom.

Interesting how UBI never bothered asking us if a dongle would be ok in a poll or market research.

[MasterCaine]

This.

It's nothing new that the gaming industry wants to switch over to a subscription-based model in the not-so-far future. The 1st step is tying games into an account system, which also handily prevents the re-selling of games, since we can't have people buying cheap, second-hand games, no Sir!

The whole DRM-issue has really not much to do with copy-protection but all the more with profit maximizing.

Well said. I totally agree. They are setting up this DRM scheme for something else later on- whether it be add-ons or subscription fees to play. Plus, this DRM thing will conveniently kill-off used game resales.

[Nisgeis]

Are you saying that it's okay to pirate a game because it was delayed?

No, I'm not saying it. I am saying that the large publishers will not be loyal to their customer base, regardless of the customer bases' loyalty to them. I never mentioned anything to do with piracy or illegal activities in that post. I was addressing the bias of the author, nothing else.


Not true. Episode 2 was released on it's own, at a suitably low price, at the same time as the Orange Box. I bought it.

Must have missed that - was it in the shops or only on steam? How about Portal, was that released as a standalone game? Or was that only available as an 'outstanding value' product?

[onelifecrisis]

Did I say that? No, I didn't. So I'm not saying it. I am saying that the large publishers will not be loyal to their customer base, regardless of the customer bases' loyalty to them.

Okay, so how does that relate to KG's article on piracy?

Must have missed that - was it in the shops or only on steam? How about Portal, was that released as a standalone game? Or was that only available as an 'outstanding value' product?

Episode 2 was released worldwide on Steam. Portal was also released separately on Steam, but I don't remember when.

[Iron Budokan]

The goal was always is to be able to charge a monthly fee in the future to allow access to the game and you cannot do that with a dongle.



Bingo.

[Nisgeis]

Okay, so how does that relate to KG's article on piracy?

I modified my post slightly, as the Did I say that? No? bit sounded a bit aggressive, which I didn't intend :DL. Like I said in the post I was agreeing with someone else who found the article well written, but didn't agree with some of the conclusions drawn and that was one example.

Episode 2 was released worldwide on Steam. Portal was also released separately on Steam, but I don't remember when.

I never buy on steam, I always buy a boxed product as I like having the physical disc, which as far as I know was never released. I just prefer having the actual game in my hands.

[MasterCaine]

Players will only need the minimal broadband connection and the game runs with less that 50 kbit per second. For example, if you play Assassin's Creed II for a total of 20 hours, the game will have only transferred 2 MB of data. The game play won't be affected by such small amount of data.I think the above says it all. If SH5 uses the same DRM as Assassin's Creed II, then...

If you get disconnected while playing, you're booted out of the game.http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235290&site=pcg

So in other words, the game play won't be affected unless you get disconnected.

[onelifecrisis]

I am starting to feel torn on the whole OSP issue.

It now seems possible that the retail version of SH5 may not be as forgiving as the copy Neal has, which would not be good. Furthermore, with Silent Hunter being a fairly niche market, it seems more likely that Ubisoft will shut down our server support sooner rather than later (much like EA did the other day for titles that were only 1 year old) and I'm not sure I trust them to released the promised DRM patches.

On the other hand, it may yet turn out that the final version is as forgiving as the copy Neal has. And the email Ubisoft sent Neal suggested that they really do think that their new DRM might be resilient to cracking, which would be awesome. Of course Jennifer Love Hewitt spinning on my lap would also be awesome, but I don't think that will happen either.

I will have to wait and see.

[Nisgeis]

I was wavering a bit. I am dead against this always on internet connection, but was going to buy the game anyway and see how it was in reality. Then the PC Gamer review of AC2 spooked me a bit, but now I'm back to buying the game regardless. If it is a nightmare to play, then I will be eagerly waiting for a 'fix' to help my retail version work.

[MasterCaine]

Anyone that thinks UBI will remove the DRM check through a patch should they permanently shut down their servers for whatever reason should read this:

Thirdly, we just don't know what happens when Ubi turn off their servers. Right now, they're promising that they'll patch the games to take the DRM and online features out. I don't actually believe them for a second. Earlier this month, EA turned off the online servers for their 2009 branded sports titles, and there was little outcry. We've seen similar promises made in the music and film industry as DRM formats grew. When they collapsed, no effort was made to alter or patch the DRM out of purchased content. When Microsoft pulled the plug on the MSN Music Store, customers who'd purchased music with their proprietary DRM were left hanging.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=232888

Buyer beware.

[onelifecrisis]

You sound even less decisive than me. ;) Speaking of a 'fix' I'm aware of a conflict in my current line of thinking.

One the one hand, if a 'fix' becomes available and it seems to have no adverse effects then I will probably buy the game knowing that I can fall back on the fix if necessary.

On the other hand I would actually be quite thrilled if a publisher managed to come up with a genuinely crack-proof DRM, even if it is a bit draconian, because I really do think there are some 'lost sales' due to piracy.

So, do I hope for a fix or hope for the absence of one? :doh:

[Jimbuna]

So, do I hope for a fix or hope for the absence of one? :doh:

Will I or won't I....Is it a head or a tail :DL

[The Enigma]

[EDIT]
I removed my comment because of a strange topic join.

[onelifecrisis]

Will I or won't I....Is it a head or a tail :DL

She loves me, she loves me not...

Wait, are we still talking about Jennifer Love Hewitt? :doh:

[MasterCaine]

You sound even less decisive than me. ;) Speaking of a 'fix' I'm aware of a conflict in my current line of thinking.

One the one hand, if a 'fix' becomes available and it seems to have no adverse effects then I will probably buy the game knowing that I can fall back on the fix if necessary.

On the other hand I would actually be quite thrilled if a publisher managed to come up with a genuinely crack-proof DRM, even if it is a bit draconian, because I really do think there are some 'lost sales' due to piracy.

So, do I hope for a fix or hope for the absence of one? :doh:

I have no problem at all with using a 'fix' for a game I bought legally. I do have a problem handing over my hard-earned money to a company like Ubi that treats their customers like sh*t. :nope:

[Seafireliv]

Nevermind. I figured it out.

The goal was always is to be able to charge a monthly fee in the future to allow access to the game and you cannot do that with a dongle.

To think they were claiming that this was to protect them from pirates when it was always $$$. Always is I guess.:shifty:


Yes, makes sense. However, I will not be part of it.

[Nisgeis]

On the other hand I would actually be quite thrilled if a publisher managed to come up with a genuinely crack-proof DRM, even if it is a bit draconian, because I really do think there are some 'lost sales' due to piracy.

So, do I hope for a fix or hope for the absence of one? :doh:

Crack proof games would be great, because they'd have one less excuse for poor sales figures. There have been lots of number flying around - 10 pirate copies to one legitimate one springs to mind, but that may have been an extrapolation of the MW2 figures. There was a more 'offiicial' looking report, I think from Australia on world piracy rates, can't find the link now, but that said the average rate was 38% world wide, with about 20% is the US and 33% in the UK. I think those figures are more belivable, so the question is, how much do these anti piracy measures cost? Perhaps Ubi is moving to their own system as Starforce is becoming too expensive to license.

The budget lables usually remove DRM not, I suspect, because of phillantropic reasons, but because they don't want to pay the licensing fee to Starforce. For them, piracy isn't much of a threat as I guess most people would have pirated it by then so they would be making a loss on the anti piracy measures.

So what's the cost of DRM versus the cost of lost profit (not revenue!)? I have no idea, but that's your tipping point. The needs or conveniences of the customer don't seem to factor into the equation at all.

[Jimbuna]

She loves me, she loves me not...

Wait, are we still talking about Jennifer Love Hewitt? :doh:

I bloody well hope so :DL


http://rjmccord91.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/383px-jennifer_love_hewitt_lf21.jpg

[horden]

When you know all the WW2 sim's simulation from the begining to SH4, you can see that the most important for hard sim player is never involved in the next product. Year by year, sim by sim.

A real wolfpack war from the german side is a chemaire since 15 years now. Even wolfpack wasn't good for that. When you play to Silent service 1 then go to generic Silent Hunter IV...what's the difference except the candy-eyes !

Really Control the "dive dive dive" sequence of a sub is nothing since the begining of sub simulators. A real using of the sonar, the most important part of a sub when submergered is all the time a joke !

But this time, don't worry, you should play in SH5 with people involved in your sub, some barbies' or better ken's you talk too.

Happy guys

[elanaiba]

Well, I guess one can assume all sorts of thigs, one was so inclined.

[Letum]

Wonderful, you provide a link to a page that does not mention optical drives this interview. Can you fine tune your citation a little?


The starforce interviews are on the left of the page under "starforce interviews".

[sabretwo]

So what's the cost of DRM versus the cost of lost profit (not revenue!)? I have no idea, but that's your tipping point. The needs or conveniences of the customer don't seem to factor into the equation at all.


All of that is true, but you are missing the critical factor of lost customer sales owing to lack of playability (infrastructure, etc.) and lack of good-will. If you make a DRM too restrictive, it will loose sales. Period.

[Nisgeis]

All of that is true, but you are missing the critical factor of lost customer sales owing to lack of playability (infrastructure, etc.) and lack of good-will. If you make a DRM too restrictive, it will loose sales. Period.

Yep, good point, that's part of 'the cost of DRM' as well. People who do not have stable conncetions won't buy the game, so that's lost profit right there, as a result of DRM. Returns is also part of the cost. How many lost sales will there be and how many sales will be gained if the system is 100% crack proof?

[nigelnire]

I have internet access 24/7 and much as I love SH3 and 4 but I won’t be buying SH5 because of DRM. :down:

[michaelws]

Hasn't cahnged my opinion. But thank you Neal for taking the time to dialogue with them.

I still will not buy with the DRM restrictions.

[scrapser]

I do not believe for one second this new DRM was so Ubisoft could provide content and services users have been asking for. That is a line that has been used in various forms since advertising was invented ("New and Improved!" comes to mind).

The last version of DRM that was tried and is still in use by many publishers is the limited number of installs with a tally maintained on the company's server. This raised Cane with Bioshock and Crysis. But at least you could play offline.

What we are really seeing here is the publishers groping for as best a DRM as they can find. In other words...we are all Beta testers for the ultimate DRM solution which is yet to be found (and probably never will).

[soldat32]

I had been following this titles development since it started.I am an avid subsim gamer and have been playing SH3 and SH4 since they came out.Was really looking forward to SH5 but now that I'm hearing Ill have to stay connected to the internet at all times to play I will be passing this title up.

I think this is a bad business decision for Ubi.All these excuses about pirates just doesn't wash.Piracy is rampant on consoles.I've read many gaming articles about modded consoles so this claim that piracy on PC's is worse just does not add up.Most the people out there that actually play these sim's own them.Ubi will be committing sales suicide by going forward with this and I really hope it does to teach them a lesson.Punishing paying customers and offering a weak excuse to do so.I also do not buy software online that have limited downloads.I buy physical products.Limited download is a complete ripoff.

In the end that's ok,no loss.With only 1 sub type and the campaign only going as far as 1943 there's not much to miss.Sounds like they were in a hurry as usual and decided to push it out the door for sale fast before completing it.I still have SH3 and 4 on my hard drive to play and with all the improvements the mod community has given us over the years it keeps me completely satisfied.

[martes86]

I bloody well hope so :DL

[PIC OF LIVE FEMALE HOTNESS]

You don't know what you have done!! We... we... erm... nevermind, I can't think. :rotfl2:

[Onkel Neal]

Are we connected Neal ? nothing to say to my message ?


What can I say? I don't like the DRM either, but I have a wholly different opinion about accepting it in order to stop/delay piracy. I don't want to argue that pirates won't but the game anyway, or all the stock arguements which no one can prove. I have my opinion, and my principles like everyone else. And in 2 weeks, I will be playing the game and discussing it here. You can enjoy SH4, more power to you, it's a great game. I may see you in the SH4 forums when I post there about my Pacific adventures.

:salute:


Crack proof games would be great, because they'd have one less excuse for poor sales figures. There have been lots of number flying around - 10 pirate copies to one legitimate one springs to mind, but that may have been an extrapolation of the MW2 figures. There was a more 'offiicial' looking report, I think from Australia on world piracy rates, can't find the link now, but that said the average rate was 38% world wide, with about 20% is the US and 33% in the UK. I think those figures are more belivable, so the question is, how much do these anti piracy measures cost? Perhaps Ubi is moving to their own system as Starforce is becoming too expensive to license.

The budget lables usually remove DRM not, I suspect, because of phillantropic reasons, but because they don't want to pay the licensing fee to Starforce. For them, piracy isn't much of a threat as I guess most people would have pirated it by then so they would be making a loss on the anti piracy measures.

So what's the cost of DRM versus the cost of lost profit (not revenue!)? I have no idea, but that's your tipping point. The needs or conveniences of the customer don't seem to factor into the equation at all.

You read that report I posted in the other forum, right? Yes, I don't know how accurate it is but it makes a lot of sense. Console games (difficult to crack) being released before PC versions (easy to crack); the number of downloads on torrent sites, and massive numbers reported through patch and MP records, etc. At least with a major title like Assassin's Creed II, if it is not cracked, it could demonstrate the strength of sales. Of course, with so many people refusing to buy it because of DRM, it really hampers good reporting. No matter how one does the numbers, it's obvious that a lot of vocal opponents to strong DRM are motivated because they never intended to buy the game in the first place, they see their 5-finger discount abilities being restricted.

[Onkel Neal]

The starforce interviews are on the left of the page under "starforce interviews".

Ok, thanks, Letum, I was not looking hard enough.

Is this the part you are referring to?

Dmitry:
Well when we first heard about the cases of optical drives crashing using StarForce-Protected product our immediate response was to get back to our testing labs, make an effort to reproduce the results and contact our partners to do the same. Initially, our results came in negative but we had to validate them, obviously, through further testing. Needless to say, Microsoft’s assistance in the matter was nothing short of grateful. They’ve even kept their support page regarding this matter confirming that “this is a problem in their (Microsoft) product(s)”. With these findings we were quite confident at the time that this was not a StarForce-related issue. As you can understand there are numerous instances and causes for optical drives to fail. In addition, Windows optical subsystems are designed to not rely upon such methods like Direct Hardware Access.


RYG:
Some may point out that it is all the more reason not to be overly aggressive with authentication.


Dmitry:
There is a certain demand for aggressive protection schemes in many regions as piracy in those parts are a real issue. As you can understand, this can seriously maim the domestic software industry. If we’re talking about optical subsystem, then it’s a case of realising that, really, the “disc-binding” methods have technically come to an end. Optical discs are now regarded to be the weakest protection point simply because it is quite easy to emulate. However, it’s still possible to protect against emulators, but as time passes those hurdles will eventually be jumped. I’m sure that “hardware binding” is our general future and protection providers should invest in this particular direction.


I'm not sure that supports the Starforce ruined my drive alarms, but I'm willing to listen. Sounds like he said it was a MS issue. Maybe it was the combination? Help me here.

[Letum]

Nah, that's not the bit...one moment...

edit: Here we go:

I'm not quoting in full, so I advise anyone reading this to read it from HERE (http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=371&Itemid=152).


Q.11. There are reports by consumers that some DRM software damages optical drives. StarForce, SecuROM, etc. Do you think these complaints are based on objective reality? If so, what causes this technically?

[...]

-b. If so, have you taken steps to correct this?

In 2006 when it was first mentioned about optical drives being damaged started to appear over the internet, we launched a round of deep investigations and tests with help of our clients and partners worldwide. No one was able to reproduce the issue and we were in great confidence that StarForce didn’t have anything to do with it.

But reports were continuing to come in and things were that we had to attempt something towards solving the issue. That was a tough decision but we’ve removed some tricks that were most bug capacious such as direct hardware access (DHA). DHA had been designed to communicate with optical drive directly bypassing the Windows drivers- cdrom.sys and atapi.sys and allowed us to implement tremendous anti-emulation stuff. Removing that feature reduced overall reliability level, but greatly improved compatibility. We believed that DHA made optical drive un-accessible by the OS and seems we were right - since that time we haven’t receive any optical drive failure reports.

[Ships-R-Us]

From Neal: "as seeing their 5 fingered discount abilities restricted".

I LOVE IT.......:har::har::rotfl2::salute::salute::woot:: arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!:

[Sockeye]

A couple more cents to throw into the piggy bank:

All this DRM mumbo-jumbo and quackery, whatchamacallit and malarkey is really a turn-off.

Fooey!

It's a bad trip, man, a bad DReaM.

[Onkel Neal]

Nah, that's not the bit...one moment...

edit: Here we go:

I'm not quoting in full, so I advise anyone reading this to read it from HERE (http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=371&Itemid=152).

Help me, Obi-wan, my attention span has diminished over the last few weeks of turmoil :wah:

Score one, that's the first solid information I've seen about that. I am persuaded.

Edit: Oh wait, I read the full thing, I am getting the impression there is no "damage", just that the device can become "unaccessible by the OS". Which appears to be remedied by reinstalling its drivers.


Q.11. There are reports by consumers that some DRM software damages optical drives. StarForce, SecuROM, etc. Do you think these complaints are based on objective reality? If so, what causes this technically?

I consulted with out engineers and they weren’t able to describe the situation when a piece of software is able to physically damage optical drive, unlike software, which has been directly designed for harmful activity. For instance - sudden voltage rising. But it is pretty possible when software makes a device un-accessible by the OS. In this case the device is still operable but it needs to be re-installed, for instance, its driver.

-a. Have you heard such complaints about your product?

Yes. And all the issues that hit our support was solved by reinstalling the software for the optical drive or IDE controller.

-b. If so, have you taken steps to correct this?

In 2006 when it was first mentioned about optical drives being damaged started to appear over the internet, we launched a round of deep investigations and tests with help of our clients and partners worldwide. No one was able to reproduce the issue and we were in great confidence that StarForce didn’t have anything to do with it.

But reports were continuing to come in and things were that we had to attempt something towards solving the issue. That was a tough decision but we’ve removed some tricks that were most bug capacious such as direct hardware access (DHA). DHA had been designed to communicate with optical drive directly bypassing the Windows drivers- cdrom.sys and atapi.sys and allowed us to implement tremendous anti-emulation stuff. Removing that feature reduced overall reliability level, but greatly improved compatibility. We believed that DHA made optical drive un-accessible by the OS and seems we were right - since that time we haven’t receive any optical drive failure reports.



Note the bolded part, isn't he saying in part 1 that the copy protection could make device un-accessible by the OS and in the last part, they continued to get reports of this problem (does not make it clear to me that this problem was more severe than the first mention, ie device driver remedies); and they removed some tricks and "We believed that DHA made optical drive un-accessible by the OS and seems we were right - since that time we haven’t receive any optical drive failure reports." So, is there really full device failure, or what?

I agree, this says there were issues with Starforce and devices, I'm just not sure the extent.

[Letum]

my attention span has diminished over the last few weeks of turmoil


Nah, my bad. It wasn't the clearest of citations in my first post.

Edit:

Edit: Oh wait, I read the full thing, I am getting the impression there is no "damage", just that the device can become "unaccessible by the OS". Which appears to be remedied by reinstalling its drivers.

Yes, that is correct.

However, this problem is unrelated to the problem of old versions of SF
switching devices in to 16bit PIO mode. That can cause physical damage
to a small number of optical drives and causes a reduction in speed of all
IDE connected components.

That problem is not confirmed by SF.
Neither are the enforced reboots, despite the SF induced reboot being reproducible.

[Ships-R-Us]

Excellent reading. Thanks Neal. This link takes you directly to the DRM page.

http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=18&Itemid=20 (http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=18&Itemid=20) (http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=18&Itemid=20)

[Onkel Neal]

Nah, my bad. It wasn't the clearest of citations in my first post.

Edit:


Yes, that is correct.

However, this problem is unrelated to the problem of old versions of SF
switching devices in to 16bit PIO mode. That can cause physical damage
to a small number of optical drives and causes a reduction in speed of all
IDE connected components.

That problem is not confirmed by SF.
Neither are the enforced reboots, despite the SF induced reboot being reproducible.

Yeah. And I acknowledge that even though the SF did not admit to some physical damage, or danced around the subject, that does not mean SF does not damage drives. I've never held a rock solid belief that SF did not damage drives, I just have never found really good 3rd party, unbiased tests.

[Heckler]

RE: The whole starforce and optical drives issue.


I suffered two failed drives because of SHIII and Race Driver 2 (Both used starforce).

Both drives eventually gave up on me, refused to write CD's or DVD's and eventually refused to recognise the very games that installed it.

One of the drives I removed and tested in another PC and it worked fine... thus supporting the idea that it's a driver issue... however, trying to reinstall those drivers did absolutely nothing to resolve the problem... Windows simply would not accept drive ever again and it was only when I reinstalled the OS that it worked once more.

The second drive however was toast... and never worked again.

Now that second drive could have expired by other means... but isn't it funny that the 'only' drives that were being reported as failing where cd/dvd writers... nothing else was affected and the connection was refuted by starforce and they even claimed they would pay money to anyone who could prove it... providing you made you own way to Russia with your own equipment and did it there... thus defeating the point of making such an empty gesture in the first place.

Some DRM isn't a bad thing... providing it does not interfere with my experience of the game. I prefer to play offline, got fed up with the amount of smacktards in every game I played... But what Ubisoft are planning is potential suicidal for the company... but I will wait and see.

I refused to get steam when that first arrived... In fact I refused to buy HL2 because of it, and wasn't I thankful after the people who bought it got screwed over the episodic content. But I did eventually install Steam about 18 months ago and bought the Orange box, since then I've purchased a couple more games.. but only budget ones or older titles that were on offer... SHIII, SHIV, Far Cry... revisited some older stuff I used to enjoy.

I don't mind steam now, it's handy to know that I can download the games again to another PC if I wanted too... and Valve are now making more money from steam than they are from games, so I don't think they'll be going out of business any time soon.

If Ubisoft are trying to position themselves as competition for steam, that's fine... but steam allows me to save my games locally and play offline... It doesn't kick me of a game when my connection drops and doesn't demand I am online every time I want to play once it's been activated.

I'm all for some competition for Steam, maybe it will force the prices down rather than keeping them artificially high to avoid them harming retail sales.

But they way Ubisoft are doing this is crazy... and it will only harm sales... which they will no doubt use as an excuse to blame piracy and justify it's use... and then quietly drop it just like they did starforce.

The freetards created the campaigns against some of the better DRM protections... and they won, it's a war that the developers cannot win, only delay... the smart ones seem to get this, the stupid ones seem to be intent on using it as an excuse to create new revenue streams and outlaw resale... Valve did this the smart way, Ubisoft are going down the stupid route.

[Heckler]

RE: The whole starforce and optical drives issue.


I suffered two failed drives because of SHIII and Race Driver 2 (Both used starforce).

Both drives eventually gave up on me, refused to write CD's or DVD's and eventually refused to recognise the very games that installed it.

One of the drives I removed and tested in another PC and it worked fine... thus supporting the idea that it's a driver issue... however, trying to reinstall those drivers did absolutely nothing to resolve the problem... Windows simply would not accept drive ever again and it was only when I reinstalled the OS that it worked once more.

The second drive however was toast... and never worked again.

Now that second drive could have expired by other means... but isn't it funny that the 'only' drives that were being reported as failing where cd/dvd writers... nothing else was affected and the connection was refuted by starforce and they even claimed they would pay money to anyone who could prove it... providing you made you own way to Russia with your own equipment and did it there... thus defeating the point of making such an empty gesture in the first place.

Some DRM isn't a bad thing... providing it does not interfere with my experience of the game. I prefer to play offline, got fed up with the amount of smacktards in every game I played... But what Ubisoft are planning is potential suicidal for the company... but I will wait and see.

I refused to get steam when that first arrived... In fact I refused to buy HL2 because of it, and wasn't I thankful after the people who bought it got screwed over the episodic content. But I did eventually install Steam about 18 months ago and bought the Orange box, since then I've purchased a couple more games.. but only budget ones or older titles that were on offer... SHIII, SHIV, Far Cry... revisited some older stuff I used to enjoy.

I don't mind steam now, it's handy to know that I can download the games again to another PC if I wanted too... and Valve are now making more money from steam than they are from games, so I don't think they'll be going out of business any time soon.

If Ubisoft are trying to position themselves as competition for steam, that's fine... but steam allows me to save my games locally and play offline... It doesn't kick me of a game when my connection drops and doesn't demand I am online every time I want to play once it's been activated.

I'm all for some competition for Steam, maybe it will force the prices down rather than keeping them artificially high to avoid them harming retail sales.

But they way Ubisoft are doing this is crazy... and it will only harm sales... which they will no doubt use as an excuse to blame piracy and justify it's use... and then quietly drop it just like they did starforce.

The freetards created the campaigns against some of the better DRM protections... and they won, it's a war that the developers cannot win, only delay... the smart ones seem to get this, the stupid ones seem to be intent on using it as an excuse to create new revenue streams and outlaw resale... Valve did this the smart way, Ubisoft are going down the stupid route.

[RDDR]

I fly IL2 and have for the last 9 years or so and I have to tell you Neal there are thousands and thousands of off line players...Thousands...........
They stay away from places like Hyperlobby Online flying...Why?
Too many online idiots that are hard to control and often times everything gets ruined for others.. Offline players have many options such as incredibly well written Campaigns la,la,la,. Lots of happy folks .

Having not dropped in for a while. I saw this and the other thread ,and felt my wallet start to twitch in my pocket as well as a shot of "Total Recall" when that criminal company "Star Farce" almost destroyed my hard drive way back when. They ended up facing criminal action from a number of countries and were ordered to release a patch to repair the damage.. Remember that one folks? Thanks Ubi.
I will buy SH5 but not under those conditions.I dont want the Ubistapo company store on my PC under any circumstances.They wont ever be if I have my way,and I certainly do at this moment..
I have SH4 and 3 on my hard drive.Great sims plus all the wonderful eye candy on SH4 I love both of those sims a lot and life goes on. With all thats happening out there in the world every day I just cant bring myself to having a simmers breakdown over this. Like the previous writer has said,These dummies will get it right in time.This has happened before..Remember? Buck up guys.
Cheers,RDDR

[Nisgeis]

Yeah. And I acknowledge that even though the SF did not admit to some physical damage, or danced around the subject, that does not mean SF does not damage drives. I've never held a rock solid belief that SF did not damage drives, I just have never found really good 3rd party, unbiased tests.

I did read that link earlier yes, I like to read :-).

The DRM software installed itself silently and also installed itself in such a way that bypassed the normal way the software is meant to talk to the hardware and caused problems by interrupting the OS when it tried to talk to the CD/DVD. The remedy, if I remember correctly, was to flash the firmware of your drive, but as the DRM maker in question didn't admit to anything, no one really knew what to do. This was compounded by Ubisoft's attitude to customer support. All they knew was they bought a game they'd been waiting for, went home and some time later, their DVD drive was not working. Here is a test link, which provides details of the slow down and security problems. Eventually some people's drives got so slow that they were unusable as they would timeout.

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/30/anticopying_malware_.html

The aove site, as well as CNet got a letter threatening to sue, with a warning saying they had contacted the FBI - that's pretty scarey isn't it? Some might call it a scare tactic... remember that for later. Ubisoft were apparently deleting all references to the problems, so that compounded the problem of getting help (can you say 'customer service'?), so everyone was left feeling like they were on their own, even though if you watched the forums, you could see the LOTS of threads being created and deleted. This forced the hand of some and:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/legal/5m-class-action-lawsuit-against-ubisoft-for-starforce-164303.php

Because, you can only go so far without being listened to.

Some of the statistics being banded about, like 10 pirate copies for every game sold, I wouldn't be surprised if they had emerged from a source that has a vested interest in the paranoia over piracy and scare tactics. OK, the publishers get their figures from the industry experts, but who are the industry experts? Well, the people that make anti-piracty software of course. After all, some companies makes large amounts of money due to piracy prevention - can you guess the name of one of those systems? Can you think of any reason why they'd inflate the piracy figures? All this, plus the link I am about to post make me feel distrustful of those that say they are working for the games industry and I bet a large amount of the distrust the publishers have for the consumer can be put down to certain business practices and scare mongering.

Don't have DRM? Then looks like a certain DRM company won't be on your side. Questionable business practice perhaps?:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148721

Was this ethical? Perhaps it was punishment for not using DRM, or perhaps a dangerous new idea (DRM free software) that needed to be stopped if money was to be made, I mean piracy was to be defereated. Here is the screenshot of the incident:

http://www.galciv2.com/temp/starfo2.jpg

There's more than one reason to hate DRM.

[martes86]

Yeah. And I acknowledge that even though the SF did not admit to some physical damage, or danced around the subject, that does not mean SF does not damage drives. I've never held a rock solid belief that SF did not damage drives, I just have never found really good 3rd party, unbiased tests.

Well, it does cause damage. Back then I had a Phillips drive, which started to make weird noises some time after installing SH3. I remember my dad telling me that no way he'd install it with SF in it, and he called it a virus. It certainly remembered me of the virus back when they loved to just destroy stuff instead of stealing data or using your pc for auto-spam.

[Letum]

I don't think it helps to make blanket statements about all DRM.
It can, and has, been done right in the past.

There are DRM systems that do not infringe customers rights to what
they have bought, control over their own PC, privacy and convinience.

[Ouch!]

I don't think it helps to make blanket statements about all DRM.
It can, and has, been done right in the past.

There are DRM systems that do not infringe customers rights to what
they have bought, control over their own PC, privacy and convinience.


Can you name some?

[Nordmann]

The standard, tried and tested, CD key for one. Heck, just take a look at Sins of a Solar Empire, no DRM whatsoever, the catch is that pirate versions cannot receive updates and expansions.

[badkarma]

It's clear that the community is sceptical that this platform will be crack-proof and that is understandable. But I cannot stress strongly enough the effect that piracy has had on the PC market. If you want to scale it back to the very basic - we feel that this effort to combat piracy allows us to continue investing creative resources into PC development.

Can we guarantee that the platform is crack-proof? I guess it's impossible to make that guarantee but I can say that we would not be releasing the system if we didn't believe that it's worth its salt.

Do we know that this kind of thing is bothersome to a certain group of gamers? Absolutely. And we're not happy to be frustrating a group of people who play our games. But we do feel that the services that we can offer with the system offset some of the frustration and, more importantly, the efforts that we put into limiting piracy will ensure that Ubisoft can continue investing in developing true AAA game experiences for PC gamers..


Well that seems pretty reasonable to me. I read this as:
IF this DRM works then the loss of customers with no/bad internet is worthwhile to stop piracy and regain some lost sales.
IF this DRM is cracked and removed within a week (which to be honest will be like every other DRM to this point) then the whole thing has been a massive failure doing nothing but inconveniencing legitimate customers and probably pushing more people to piracy.

This had better be the most amazing hack-proof DRM concieved up to this point in PC gaming, or UBI are going to look amazingly stupid over this.

In fact, this statement has made me decide to do something I've never done before.
I'll be looking to see if a pirated version of SH5 is available. NOTE: I will NOT be downloading or using it, EVER. However, if I don't find one within a month of release, meaning UPlay actually works as anti-piracy and isn't just corperate BS for "no reselling of our product", then I'll be purchasing.

I still think this DRM is draconian to the max, but if it actually stops piracy then I find it hard to argue that it's the wrong way to go for games companies.
However if it doesn't work, it's done nothing but punish legitimate users.. and I'm in no mood for punishment that does nothing but make UBI feel like at least they made an effort, and they can now guarentee no re-selling and lots of marketing opportunities.

[Gunnodayak]

I'll be looking to see if a pirated version of SH5 is available. NOTE: I will NOT be downloading or using it, EVER. However, if I don't find one within a month of release, meaning UPlay actually works as anti-piracy and isn't just corperate BS for "no reselling of our product", then I'll be purchasing.

Probably with all this argue pro/against DRM, this game will be cracked very soon after its release, it's a challenge for crackers. And a big one, considering the total volume of talking about the subject.

[martes86]

I'll be looking to see if a pirated version of SH5 is available. NOTE: I will NOT be downloading or using it, EVER. However, if I don't find one within a month of release, meaning UPlay actually works as anti-piracy and isn't just corperate BS for "no reselling of our product", then I'll be purchasing.

It may well be released the usual way, Edit--NS

[ryanglavin]

Starforce has made me get at least 15 new drivers over the years. (as in 4).

I don't want to go through that hell again.

[mookiemookie]

Another funny.

The man represents pirates. The car represents paying customers. The bus represents Ubi's DRM:

http://i.imgur.com/zPyuI.gif

[Nordmann]

Damn, that guy sure was lucky, if he'd been any slower...

[Onkel Neal]

Well, it does cause damage. Back then I had a Phillips drive, which started to make weird noises some time after installing SH3. I remember my dad telling me that no way he'd install it with SF in it, and he called it a virus. It certainly remembered me of the virus back when they loved to just destroy stuff instead of stealing data or using your pc for auto-spam.

Anecdotal evidence is not proof. My daughter's laptop DVD drive stopped recognizing music CDs. I don't think it was U2's fault.

[Onkel Neal]

Well that seems pretty reasonable to me. I read this as:
IF this DRM works then the loss of customers with no/bad internet is worthwhile to stop piracy and regain some lost sales.
IF this DRM is cracked and removed within a week (which to be honest will be like every other DRM to this point) then the whole thing has been a massive failure doing nothing but inconveniencing legitimate customers and probably pushing more people to piracy.

This had better be the most amazing hack-proof DRM concieved up to this point in PC gaming, or UBI are going to look amazingly stupid over this.

I still think this DRM is draconian to the max, but if it actually stops piracy then I find it hard to argue that it's the wrong way to go for games companies.
However if it doesn't work, it's done nothing but punish legitimate users.. and I'm in no mood for punishment that does nothing but make UBI feel like at least they made an effort, and they can now guarentee no re-selling and lots of marketing opportunities.

I agree with you first two points, but


read the rules, you cannot make declarations about pirating games or using cracks on legal games in this forum.



I understand that some people will legally buy the game and then look for a crack to remedy whatever inconvenience the copy protection has, but there is no way for you, me, and everyone to tell who is using cracks on legal games and who is pirating the game. So, keep that to yourself.

Note to all: this thread will be locked if this keeps up.

[Onkel Neal]

Another funny.

The man represents pirates. The car represents paying customers. The bus represents Ubi's DRM:

http://i.imgur.com/zPyuI.gif


:har: Ok, here's hoping Ubi's new OSP bus is a little faster and a little wider!! :rock:

[Heckler]

I agree with you first two points, but read the rules, you cannot make declarations about pirating games in this forum.

Note to all: this thread will be locked if this keeps up.


He never made any declaration that he would pirate the game... he simply said he would look and see if it became available and cracked soon after being released... Is it against the rules to say you will look at something now?

That would be like saying 'I'm going to the library to look at a book on how to get away with murder' (they exist) and you accuse me of being a murderer.

Research and being informed is not a bad thing... those of us who are fully informed on issues are likely to make more reasoned, sensible and rational choices. Being aware that the DRM has been cracked (or not) and that the game is freely available for download (or isn't) is not a declaration of intent to pirate a game and never will be. :)

[Onkel Neal]

Heckler, I understand your point, and the problem is not with Martes or badkarma's intentions. For all we know they may be telling the exact truth. However, people who download games illegally will not announce they do this (if they do, the are banned), so there is no way to tell the honest people from the dishonest people. Were you here when SH4 came out? Do you remember the people compaining that the game had serious bugs like the crew chanting numbers over and over and they had big bug eyes? Yeah, those were signs that these people were playing pirated copies of the games.* When you see 200,000 downloads on the torrents, you have to know there's a lot of people playing SH games that did not pay for them, like me...and you.



All we ask is discuss the game, the features, the flaws, the missions, etc but don't get too deep into illegal activities here. Ok? :up:




*Nisgeis, we know you were the exception ;)

[Nisgeis]

*Nisgeis, we know you were the exception ;)

Yep! Other people say they have legit copies and the no eyes problem - not sure what the big eyes thing is though. I never had any chanting of numbers, but I did get that horrible whooshing sound on loading save games.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, we appreciated the lengths you went to in order to prove your game was legal. :salute:

[Nisgeis]

I didn't do anything guv'nor. Wanna see my receipt for the pre-order (of SH4)? :DL.

[Sailor Steve]

Anecdotal evidence is not proof. My daughter's laptop DVD drive stopped recognizing music CDs. I don't think it was U2's fault.
Of course it wasn't.




It was Ozzy!

[Nordmann]

:har: Ok, here's hoping Ubi's new OSP bus is a little faster and a little wider!! :rock:

Yes, so the legitimate customer can be smashed aside in a much more expedient manner!

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, so the legitimate customer can be smashed aside in a much more expedient manner!

I'm tough, I can handle it :D

[Arclight]

We're not all from Texas, Neal. :rotfl2:

[guynoir]

Also, you'd be surprised at how fast a pirate can run when they're lit up by a DRM's headlights... :D

[scrapser]

It's been a few days since the post where Ubisoft explained that their new DRM will enable them to supply additional services and features to customers who have been asking for them.

Has anyone found any evidence of what requests have been and who has been asking for them? I've been looking and so far...nothing.

I for one would like to call Ubisoft's "bluff" (for lack of a better term that can't be posted here).

[Heckler]

Heckler, I understand your point, and the problem is not with Martes or badkarma's intentions. For all we know they may be telling the exact truth. However, people who download games illegally will not announce they do this (if they do, the are banned), so there is no way to tell the honest people from the dishonest people. Were you here when SH5 came out? Do you remember the people compaining that the game had serious bugs like the crew chanting numbers over and over and they had big bug eyes? Yeah, those were signs that these people were playing pirated copies of the games.* When you see 200,000 downloads on the torrents, you have to know there's a lot of people playing SH games that did not pay for them, like me...and you.


I'm hoping I will be :)

I assume you meant SH4 :D and no I wasn't around then... but I ahve been around many other games that have suffered the same problems. I went out and bought GTA IV on release day for the PC and immediately had many issues trying to get it to run (on a high end PC) at an acceptable level... The GTA forums were full of the same issues... and lots of people calling anyone who had issues pirates and so forth.

Over a year later and those same issues are still going on, performance on high systems is a joke and rockstar were trying to claim the game is 'for future systems' that don't exist yet... and in a few years computers will ahve full performance... The real problem was that is was a really sh*tty port from the console and done badly... they never even bothered to change the controller configs and released it with Xbox 360 controller support only and no way to remap certain controls or actions for a mouse and keyboard.

Needless to say I struggled for a couple of months and never solved them all... and the game went back up on the shelf... tried it again a couple of months ago and new patches, but they still haven't fixed the problem of it being a sh*tty port.

Too many games, too many bugs... have left me a little bitter and suspicious of every single software developer/publisher out there.

I think that's why I'm so impressed with this place... SHIII seems to be bigger than it was 4yrs ago, bigger than SHIV and I imagine SHV isn't going to knock either of those of the top spots with things looking like they do... and even if it does and a lot of people unaware of the DRM, if those people who experience problems with it, put it on the shelf like I would and not bother with another one again... it hurts Ubisoft not us, as we've still got SHIII & IV to play with, and I suspect will have for many years to come.

[Onkel Neal]

My brain, no workee :wah:

[Platapus]

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said

The only thing that ever frightened me during the war was the DRM peril

[UnSalted]

Some companies actually listen to their customers I'm happy to say. I was nosing around the 2K Games sire and saw a January 22 announcement that they were scaling back the DRM system for Bioshock 2 due to customer concerns. Gee, shocking isn't it?

[609_Avatar]

Some companies actually listen to their customers I'm happy to say. I was nosing around the 2K Games sire and saw a January 22 announcement that they were scaling back the DRM system for Bioshock 2 due to customer concerns. Gee, shocking isn't it?

I'm curious to hear in what way it has been "scaled back".

[Webster]

I'm curious to hear in what way it has been "scaled back".


if they follow UBI example to scale back they wont give out any info on the game at all :D

[Brag]

if they follow UBI example to scale back they wont give out any info on the game at all :D

Webster,
are you getting funny? :har::har::har::har:
You made me spill my rum

[JScones]

:har: Ok, here's hoping Ubi's new OSP bus is a little faster and a little wider!! :rock:
And thus the customer car a little more crushed?

How do you crack your walnuts Neal, with a nutcracker? Or a large rubber mallet?

Your continued assertion that everyone complaining about DRM/OSP must therefore be a pirate is getting a bit tiresome and offensive (particularly when you imply that those against DRM are either idiots with no attention span (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1271636&postcount=1318) or too miserly to spend $50 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1272606&postcount=20)) - I am not a fan of DRM/OSP, but, perhaps surprisingly to you, I am not a pirate. I hope you can actually understand that this is possible.

A few days ago you chipped Brag for his incessant anti-DRM posts...to that I have three words: pot, kettle, black...

[Elder-Pirate]

^^
Whew, it's getting a little bit warm in here. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/hot11.gif

[artao]

ahhhhh ... too much to read here!! :O::rotfl2:
just sharing something I just read on slashdot, regarding actually playing a review copy of assasin's creed 2 ... :: http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/02/18/0719256/Ubisofts-Constant-Net-Connection-DRM-Confirmed

... i found it interesting, if short ...

ttfn

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Another funny.

The man represents pirates. The car represents paying customers. The bus represents Ubi's DRM:

http://i.imgur.com/zPyuI.gif

Ya know, I spent about an hour writing a post containing my thoughts regarding the DRM... only to have Subsim TIME ME OUT when I hit "submit."

So for now, the nutshell version:

UBISOFT SUCKS... and the DRM is the idiots way to nuke whole villages to kill lone insurgents.

Good post Mookie.

(No offense intended Neal, I really like you... but it is in yours and Subsim's interests to defend Ubisoft's use of said DRM w/SH5. Said DRM does NOTHING for the honest gamer/user... except to create yet another Ubizoo-branded pain in the a$$. ...and I am not lumping the actual Silent Hunter Devs into my statement... Ubisoft puts the screws to them anyway.)

The above statement(s) are only my view.

[Subtype Zero]

Imagine my excitement when I heard that SH5 was about to become a reality! Then, the news slowly started to trickle in. At first, it didn't sound too bad: "new 3D crew interaction," "improved graphics," "even more moddable than before!" Great!

But that was just the hook. After we got all excited, UBI started to pull the rug out from under us: simplistic, arcade interface; apparent emphasis on the "casual" gamer; only one sub type available (WHAT??); campaign only through 1943 (HUH??!!).

Finally, the ultimate disappointment: permanent, internet connection required. WTF!! Supposedly designed to stop pirates in their tracks! Scoff!

To Ubisoft: I have NEVER downloaded or even played a pirated version of any computer game. Nor have I illegally downloaded music or videos, etc. Everything on any computer I have ever owned has been legally bought and paid for. I have also been a loyal customer of Ubisoft and sub simulations starting with Silent Service II. Until now. It makes me sad to say that I will not be purchasing SH5 until this extremely obtrusive and unnecessary on-line DRM requirement is either removed or substantially redesigned so that I don't have to be constantly monitored by you when I simply want to relax by playing a computer game.

Big Brother lives! Welcome to 1984!

P.S. Please don't patronize me with the line that your customers demanded this "feature" and how fantastic and convenient it will be. We both know that DRM is being implemented for one reason only--to maximize Ubisoft's profits. Now who does it appear is the pirate????? Hmmmpph.

[THE_MASK]

I believe it was Winston Churchill who saidthats my made up quote you scoundrel .

[Ships-R-Us]

thats my made up quote you scoundrel .

I 2nd Sobers quote and testify also I that being of sworn testimony..

PS: Is that the proper way to word it to a judge, or would it be better to shoot the judge?.........AND, no hijack intent here

[Gabucino]

DRM will get you banned from your own games. Just like it happened to me (http://gabucino.be/files/vpltd-suxx.html).

[Ships-R-Us]

DRM will get you banned from your own games. Just like it happened to me (http://gabucino.be/files/vpltd-suxx.html).

Holy Bejioschritofferson: Wow! What a resume. Why do you hang around here?....Do you have emotional problems?, such as I. My resume is very good but I have also asked myself the same question.....BTW, there are real lives out there if you can catch one.:salute:

[Gabucino]

Don't worry, I was just a bit drunk when I replied. Nevertheless, my point is valid.

[jwilliams]

PC gamer put some of our concerns to ubi.

Link:- http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg

Do Ubisoft understand that we don't want to be permanently online?
They've spotted the outcry, yes. "We know that requiring a permanent online connection is not a happy point for a lot of PC gamers, but it is necessary for the system to work.Looks like ubi are not going to back down on OSP :damn:

If my internet connection goes down during play, will I lose my progress?
That depends on the way the systems have been implemented. The two examples we have now, Assassin's Creed 2 and Settlers VII, show differing implementations. In Assassin's Creed, if your connection cuts out, you'll be taken back to the last checkpoint. "With Settlers, your game will resume exactly where you left off," says Ubisoft's spokesperson.I would GUESS (I dont know for sure) that SH5 would have the same system as Settlers, so unlike AC2 you wont lose your progress :yeah:

What happens when it becomes economically inefficient to run the servers for these games? Will Ubisoft take the servers down? And will that mean we can't play the games we bought?

The first point Ubi makes is that they intend for the servers to stay up. "Say in 5 years someone who bought Assassin's Creed 2 wants to go back and play it, the hope is, the plan is that we'll be on Assassin's Creed, I dunno, 3, 4, 5, and the servers will still be there to serve those new games," explains their spokesperson. "They'll also be able to serve the old games." But Ubisoft have the ability to patch the DRM out of their games. "If for some reason, and this is not in the plan, but if for some reason all of the servers someday go away, then we can release a patch so that the game can be played in single-player without an online connection. But that's if all of the servers are gone."Sounds like they have no intension of ever removing OSP unless they are going to shut their servers down. And then they have not promised to do so.:nope:

Will Ubi make a firm commitment to removing the DRM if the servers are to be taken offline?

We'll paste the straight transcript here:



PCG: What I think a lot of us would really like is a firm commitment that you understand our worries that the servers are going to go down and suddenly we've just got some trash data on our hard drives that we've paid for.



Ubisoft: The system is made by guys who love PC games. They play PC games, they are your friends.



PCG: So you can commit to saying that those systems will be patched out?


Ubisoft: That's the plan.



PCG: It's the plan, or it's definitely going to happen?



Ubisoft: That's written into the goal of the overall plan of the thing. But we don't plan on shutting down the servers, we really don't.""Thats the plan" dosen't mean yes they will :damn:

[Adriatico]

Ya know, I spent about an hour writing a post containing my thoughts regarding the DRM... only to have Subsim TIME ME OUT when I hit "submit."

So for now, the nutshell version:

UBISOFT SUCKS... and the DRM is the idiots way to nuke whole villages to kill lone insurgents.

Good post Mookie.

(No offense intended Neal, I really like you... but it is in yours and Subsim's interests to defend Ubisoft's use of said DRM w/SH5. Said DRM does NOTHING for the honest gamer/user... except to create yet another Ubizoo-branded pain in the a$$. ...and I am not lumping the actual Silent Hunter Devs into my statement... Ubisoft puts the screws to them anyway.)

The above statement(s) are only my view.

Just wondering... why Ubi didn't announce that "DRM present" the same day when SH5 was announced ?
It just leavs that bitter feeling - that somebody was hurrying up to undermine GWX4... and 5 months later to continue with their service presentations...

With a fully operational and offline GWX4 in January2010 - where would be "DRM cheerleaders" and Ubi now ?
:dead:

[Spike]

Ubi never listens,look at sh3 final patch...

[Heckler]

The more I read this, the more I am convinced they are just posturing at the moment. Some one has determined that this is the way forward and whilst it might be 10% about making it harder for the game to be cracked, it's 90% about killing the resale market and moving people towards a new kind of lock in which will make them more money.

However.. no game remains uncracked for ever and it's just a matter of time before one is released that will bypass the need to be online and make save games possible locally.

If they can delay the cracks for a few weeks or even a few months, they will regard it as a success... and I suspect that a patch will be released to soften the protection after a few months. After all it's those first few months sales that count.

I still won't be buying it on principle, I object to being dictated to in this way and I suspect some one will start a class action suit in the US to ram the point home.

I love the Settlers series and have played them all, still have 3, 4, 5 sat on my shelf... I won't be buying 7 either.

[UnSalted]

"That's the plan" being repeated so often is laughable. Anyone that actually runs a business knows that one of the first things you build into any plan is flexibility to deal with market conditions.

Ubisoft's replies sound like a man telling a woman that birth control isn't necessary because he doesn't intend to make her pregnant.

[KG_Jag]

What sane company takes an action (DRM type in this case) that alienates so many of its core customers?

If Ubi is sane, which I hope to be the case, then perhaps its core audience for SH5 is not the folks who tend to gather here.

[Akula Osis]

This release will be a wait and see for me, I'm in no rush to endure the frustration of dealing with this insanity :damn:

Gabucino, your rant really made me laugh. But the bottom line, is whether they like your language or not, your a paying customer and have showed loyalty through your purchases. Can the copies you've purchased not be played on a regular PC?

These DRM discussions always drive me insane, I change my hardware components almost monthly as they go onsale. Are they not smart enough to figure out hard core gamers operate in this fashion?

[Sniper297]

"That's the plan", they never heard the old adage that "no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy"? I'll be voting with my wallet - I'm not buying it.

[Buck_O]

Its too bad it comes to this, (DRM) I don't like it, but I can certainly understand UBISOFT's position.

I know that if I created something (weather that be art,music, a computer game a book etc...) & put my heart into it, for both love of creating & for a profit; and then people started stealing it. Then I would go to great lengths to protect it. If I could not do that, I mean protect it & get a profit out of it, then I suppose I would give up. After all I have a family to feed like the rest of us.

I know from personal experience that many of our younger people (my children of whom I've spoke at great lengths to about this) do not understand the cause & effect of stealing intellectual property. Do it enough and the effect is a decline in quality.

The best anyone can be at anything, is highly motivated by money $$$$. And computer games fit nicely into that statement.

That is why most of the greatest creations the world has ever seen has come out of the United States. The country has created a haven, for people to create & make a profit. That is being chipped away at today... but I digress.

UBISOFT has to make a profit in order to continue making games of the quality that the Silent Hunter series has given us. Obviously that profit is being threatened by thieves, thus we now have DRM..

I strongly suggest that you support creativity. Buy it! the art, music, games, etc...and give the maker a good price for it, or else, if the artist can't make a profit, ...we all loose, and games like SH5 get a anti-theft collar like DRM or worse they may go the way of the dodo bird

[zakarpatska]

That is why most of the greatest creations the world has ever seen has come out of the United States. The country has created a haven, for people to create & make a profit. That is being chipped away at today... but I digress.

Which creations were you thinking of? On my short list for the greatest inventions (creations?) would be the car (Germany, 1880s), the steam engine (England, 1690s), the train (England 1780s), the electronic digital computer (England 1943), nuclear fission (Italy, 1932), telescope (Italy 1600s), screw propeller (Austria-Hungary, 1820s), Diesel engine (Germany, 1850s), piano (Italy, 1690s), reinforced concrete (France, 1850s), steel (Turkey or China, roughly 2000 B.C.E), etc. I guess it depends on what you consider greatest or what qualifies as a creation.

One the Americans I admire, Jonas Salk, does not seem to have had profit as his primary motivation though he gave to the human race more than most. Something to think about.


Perhaps you were thinking of Al Gore and the Internet?

[Uber Gruber]

"We know that requiring a permanent online connection is not a happy point for a lot of PC gamers, but it is necessary for the system to work."

Looks like PC Gamer got stuck with a lemon. The usual 2D suited type regurgitating the DRM 'official' position just like a lackey.

Its all about the system boys....sod the customers.

Nutters!:haha:

[jwilliams]

UBISOFT has to make a profit in order to continue making games of the quality that the Silent Hunter series has given us. Obviously that profit is being threatened by thieves, thus we now have DRM..

I strongly suggest that you support creativity. Buy it! the art, music, games, etc...and give the maker a good price for it, or else, if the artist can't make a profit, ...we all loose, and games like SH5 get a anti-theft collar like DRM or worse they may go the way of the dodo bird

I'm not against Ubisoft making a profit, nor am i against them protecting their software.

But what I am against is buying a product that I can not use or causes so much annoyance thats its almost unusable.

If Ubi's servers are down im unable to use my product, if the server goes down while playing i could posibly lose my time spent playing since i last saved. And if i decide to play again in 5 years time, ubi's server may not be there to allow me to install the product.

[IanC]

You know, I'm actually starting to wish that SH5 would come out on console. I mean, it would remove the whole DRM thing right. :hmmm:
Naww nevermind, I'm talking crazy, I need some sleep...

[jwilliams]

You know, I'm actually starting to wish that SH5 would come out on console. I mean, it would remove the whole DRM thing right. :hmmm:
Naww nevermind, I'm talking crazy, I need some sleep...

What makes you think console's dont have DRM??

Microsoft STILL has yet to fix their DRM licensing issues for Xbox Live Marketplace downloads, locking many people out of the content they've paid for. So when your 360 gets the RRoD, they will fix it, but in the process break everything you've downloaded from XBLM, leaving it to you to spend months on the phone with XBL Support.
http://my.imaginationispower.com/archives/000870.html

Prob not as bad as DRM on pc, but im sure it will be in a few years.

[tommyk]

"We know that requiring a permanent online connection is not a happy point for a lot of PC gamers, but it is necessary for the system to work."

The system knows what is best for you! :) Who will they blame for low sales figures? :)

[Catfish]

Another idea for a newspaper DRM :

http://chimptron.com/?p=30

Read-me not headquarters :rock:
:rotfl2::rotfl2:


Greetings,
Catfish

[Arclight]

Who will they blame for low sales figures? :)
Blame Ubi, just like we do! :lol:

Oh, wait... well, they could still blame Microsoft, maybe EA or Activision. :hmmm:

[tommyk]

> Newspaper vendors to stop piracy with invisible ink

haha, catfish, you made my day. :up:

[JScones]

The system knows what is best for you! :) Who will they blame for low sales figures? :)
Will be interesting how this pans out. I'd love to hear the Ubisoft spin doctors explain the cause if SH5 sells poorly *and* isn't cracked. They can't blame the pirates then...

...although I have a feeling that they will still somehow find a way (my guess is somehow connecting the inevitable cracking of AC2 to SH5)...

[Indiana_Jones]

I was gonna buy SHV & was so looking forward to it, but I will not allow myself to buy a game with a such a fascist DRM system. :nope:

-Indy

[Onkel Neal]

So for now, the nutshell version:

UBISOFT SUCKS... and the DRM is the idiots way to nuke whole villages to kill lone insurgents.

Good post Mookie.

(No offense intended Neal, I really like you... but it is in yours and Subsim's interests to defend Ubisoft's use of said DRM w/SH5.

I'm not sure how that's in my interest. You think Ubisoft has done me any favors? :DL

[HundertzehnGustav]

but... but... UBI is GOD?:timeout:

and in HIM, the allmighty Ubi-God we have faith?
No?
Yes?
*confused*
:doh:

Shoot the Pirates out the torpedo Tubes, and Drop the DRM-Nutters overboard like Ashcans!

[Buck_O]

Which creations were you thinking of? On my short list for the greatest inventions (creations?) would be the car (Germany, 1880s), the steam engine (England, 1690s), the train (England 1780s), the electronic digital computer (England 1943), nuclear fission (Italy, 1932), telescope (Italy 1600s), screw propeller (Austria-Hungary, 1820s), Diesel engine (Germany, 1850s), piano (Italy, 1690s), reinforced concrete (France, 1850s), steel (Turkey or China, roughly 2000 B.C.E), etc. I guess it depends on what you consider greatest or what qualifies as a creation.

One the Americans I admire, Jonas Salk, does not seem to have had profit as his primary motivation though he gave to the human race more than most. Something to think about.


Perhaps you were thinking of Al Gore and the Internet?

Ok, perhaps im a little bias, with my statement, please .. don't link me in anyway with Al Gore though, im not a fan of the man in any way

there is one great invention that the world has to bow down to that came from the U.S.

Mary Phelps Jacob, 1913...........The Bra.......:yeah:

[MasterCaine]

Will Ubi make a firm commitment to removing the DRM if the servers are to be taken offline?

We'll paste the straight transcript here:



PCG: What I think a lot of us would really like is a firm commitment that you understand our worries that the servers are going to go down and suddenly we've just got some trash data on our hard drives that we've paid for.



Ubisoft: The system is made by guys who love PC games. They play PC games, they are your friends.



PCG: So you can commit to saying that those systems will be patched out?
Quote:



Ubisoft: That's the plan.



PCG: It's the plan, or it's definitely going to happen?



Ubisoft: That's written into the goal of the overall plan of the thing. But we don't plan on shutting down the servers, we really don't."
PC gamer put some of our concerns to ubi.

Link:- http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg

Looks like ubi are not going to back down on OSP :damn:

I would GUESS (I dont know for sure) that SH5 would have the same system as Settlers, so unlike AC2 you wont lose your progress :yeah:

Sounds like they have no intension of ever removing OSP unless they are going to shut their servers down. And then they have not promised to do so.:nope:

"Thats the plan" dosen't mean yes they will :damn:

Screw Ubisoft. They won't say 'yes' for sure about the removal of DRM when their servers eventually get shut down because they don't want to get sued if they don't actually do it. They cannot be trusted. Screw them. :down:

[Nisgeis]

PC gamer put some of our concerns to ubi.

Link:- http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg

From that article:

We wouldn't have built it if we thought that it was really going to piss off our customers.But now they know it is p***ing them off, sod them?

How will I know what I'll lose?
"You'll have to wait for the reviews, and to hear what your peers are saying." Er... riiiiiiight... WTF? Why on Earth do we have to read a review to find out - why won't Ubisoft just tell us what the product does. I don't like all this veil of mystery regarding DRM. I bet it won't be on the box. Requires permanent internet connection or your game will freeze and you will lose your progress. Nope, that would put people off buying the game, so that won't make it on. Informed consumer choice my bum!

That article reads like a spoof interview with the worlds worst software house. It would be funny, except it's not a joke.

[Jimbuna]

From that article:

But now they know it is p***ing them off, sod them?

Er... riiiiiiight... WTF? Why on Earth do we have to read a review to find out - why won't Ubisoft just tell us what the product does. I don't like all this veil of mystery regarding DRM. I bet it won't be on the box. Requires permanent internet connection or your game will freeze and you will lose your progress. Nope, that would put people off buying the game, so that won't make it on. Informed consumer choice my bum!

That article reads like a spoof interview with the worlds worst software house. It would be funny, except it's not a joke.

I must admit this is beginning to look increasingly concerning :hmmm:

[Sgtmonkeynads]

By the sounds of everything a good old Dead is Dead campaign is,... well Dead !

Autosave defeats the purpose, and bad connection will kill you,
so...Bye Bye SH5 D.I.D. thread, would have bean nice to meet you.:nope:

[Jace11]

So sad at hearing this news...

I didn't buy Dawn of War II and Empire Total War because of Steam and the idea of renting a game after spending £30 - 40 on it.

It looks like I won't be getting SH5. I was a big fan of all three series, but I still have SH4 and mods. It works without a CD in the drive and without internet.

I have to say I have switched to playing PS3 games now. There are no simulations or in-depth games like the SH series but at least the game is released relatively unbugged, you can play offline, online play is free and you own a disc that you can use whenever you like. Me and several friends have switch from the PC format.

I still have a love of simulations but the DRM is very offputting. So I think I will find myself playing the older generations of games like SH4 or Lock On etc rather than SH5 and the newer flight sims.

Sorry to SH5 dev team, this sounds like a stupid ubi idea and probably isnt their fault.

[martes86]

There are no simulations or in-depth games like the SH series but at least the game is released relatively unbugged [...]

Yeah... Games like Tetris don't have bugs, that's for sure. It's the awesome complicated stuff (like an unrestrained-world simulator) that has bugs. And even now, that consoles also have hard drives, internet access, patches for games (and not-free DLC), do you really think they're not gonna end up suffering from bugs just like PC games do? I think they will, for sure. Either that, or console-games publishers will do what they aren't doing now for PC games: not release the games until they are 100% bug free.

Cheers :rock:

[Brag]

Right, chaps!

The article:

Link:- http://www.computerandvideogames.com...35596&site=pcg (http://www.computerandvideogames.com...35596&site=pcg)

Shows that Ubi is run by total idiots who take their customers to be bigger idiots than themselves.

Who would want to buy anything from such niwits?

If I was an Ubi shareholder, I'd be selling my shares fast.

[OakGroove]

UBI can go take a long walk off a short pier. Anyone who actually buys this dreck actively supports the byzantine and ignorant vision of these control freaks.

[Jace11]

Yeah... Games like Tetris don't have bugs, that's for sure. It's the awesome complicated stuff (like an unrestrained-world simulator) that has bugs. And even now, that consoles also have hard drives, internet access, patches for games (and not-free DLC), do you really think they're not gonna end up suffering from bugs just like PC games do? I think they will, for sure. Either that, or console-games publishers will do what they aren't doing now for PC games: not release the games until they are 100% bug free.

Cheers :rock:

Console games are not 100% bug free - well spotted, have a prize... But you did miss that I said "relatively unbugged". To explain that statement for you, so you understand... it means there are bugs, just less when compared to PC games. As anyone who played SH3 and SH4 on release will know, these games were riddled with bugs that ruined the atmosphere. SH4 was worse though. It wasn't finished on release.

Remember the flying subs and stuff like that... It was horrific. Many modders fixed these things, patches helped, but often modders fixed them before the dev team. Half the modding community emerged because they wanted to fix the games mistakes, not changed a few textures. It took nearly a year of fixes till I was happy with SH4.

SH5 will be bug ridden on release also. Sorry, but it will. Did you listen to the preview vids. Voices swapping between German and American accents.. God knows what else will be in there.

I'm not bothering this time...

[TheDarkWraith]

As one who BETA tested Settlers 7 and this new DRM scheme I can say it's for the birds.
Yes I had to have a constant internet connection to play - if my internet connection stuttered for a period of time the game would freeze in time and then resume once the connection was restored. This happened many times for unknown reasons causing me to either miss an upgrade, lose a battle, or lag behind in production. I have DSL and couldn't figure out why I had these stutters.
This same DRM is more than likely what is being used with SH5.
Other than that I didn't notice anything 'bad' about the type of DRM being used. I did have to log onto my Ubisoft account everytime before I could play the game which I found very disconcerting. Why do they need to know when I'm playing the game? Collecting demographic data from me and not paying me for it? I don't think so!! But out of principle I wouldn't buy a game that I always had to ask mommy and daddy if i could play or had to be under their watchful eye while I was playing it.
I'll wait until the game is properly 'patched' so that I don't have to deal with this annoyance.
Those with determination and desire can overcome any obstacle. Ubisoft should quit wasting $$ on silly DRM stuff and invest that money into the game's content and playability.
But I'm one that never backed down from a challenge so I say bring it on :smug: Spite is a powerful motivator.

[Seafireliv]

UBI can go take a long walk off a short pier. Anyone who actually buys this dreck actively supports the byzantine and ignorant vision of these control freaks.


Well said. And that`s what it`s all about- control.

[ThePinkSubmarine]

I don't care for DRM one bit. Call me crazy -- but I get offended all the time when people demand to look at my receipt when I leave a store. If I buy it -- once it's mine, it's mine. Thus they should no longer concern themselves with what I do with it.

Which is how I feel about DRM. I'm not crazy about it -- but I love the SH series; to the point that I've got my pre-order with overnight shipping!

I think it'll be worth it in the end! This is looking like it might be the best submarine game made since Aces of the Deep (those were the days)!

[Jimbuna]

Right, chaps!

The article:

Link:-http://www.computerandvideogames.com...35596&site=pcg (http://www.computerandvideogames.com...35596&site=pcg)

Shows that Ubi is run by total idiots who take their customers to be bigger idiots than themselves.

Who would want to buy anything from such niwits?

If I was an Ubi shareholder, I'd be selling my shares fast.

I don't know if it's only me at my end Brag but I can't get the link to work :hmmm:

[tommyk]

I don't know if it's only me at my end Brag but I can't get the link to work :hmmm:

I guess it is this one on PC Gamer Blog (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg)

[magic452]

I think it's the link as I can't get it either.

Magic

Edit. never mind the other one works.

[Denson]

There's a lot of argument around pirates....
SH3 and SH4 have been on the internet cracked avaible to DL, indeed.

BUT, Sub Sim is a niche market. Ppl who play it will buy cause they're fans.

This DRM is not necessary

As a example Egosoft's X3Terran Conflict (privatter style space sim).
A long story short:
X3 reunion was the predecessor, the engine uses scripts. The COMMUNITY was able to implement many mods and new script to enhance tha game like X-tended mod ( GWX for sh3).
The same modders participated to create X3TC.
The last game needed the CD to be played with Securom. They removed it in a patch because the community that bought the game asked the dev.

Thats how you avoid piracy, buy customers heart, LISTEN them and interact with them. This way the next game is not a faillure because there are peoples ideas implemented, that will BUY the game.


For the last years i saw SH series and the subsim community having this kind of bound. Modders are very active, some people did tremendous work to find informations, schemes to allow modders make the game more accurate etc. That's how u make a better game.

This DRM for me is more a punishment for the community. The real fans IMO would be the major part of SH5 sales.

my 2 cents

[Jimbuna]

I guess it is this one on PC Gamer Blog (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg)

Danke http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[martes86]

Console games are not 100% bug free - well spotted, have a prize... But you did miss that I said "relatively unbugged". To explain that statement for you, so you understand... it means there are bugs, just less when compared to PC games. As anyone who played SH3 and SH4 on release will know, these games were riddled with bugs that ruined the atmosphere. SH4 was worse though. It wasn't finished on release.

Remember the flying subs and stuff like that... It was horrific. Many modders fixed these things, patches helped, but often modders fixed them before the dev team. Half the modding community emerged because they wanted to fix the games mistakes, not changed a few textures. It took nearly a year of fixes till I was happy with SH4.

No, I didn't miss it, but the way you put it, seems like if it was total awesomeness with just 2 or 3 bugs. Still, you can't compare development of one plataform to another... just because the complexity of the stuff being developed is totally different.

SH4 sure was bugged, totally unfinished, no one says otherwise... SH3, had its quirks, but I wouldn't go as far to say "atmosphere ruining".


SH5 will be bug ridden on release also. Sorry, but it will. Did you listen to the preview vids. Voices swapping between German and American accents.. God knows what else will be in there.

Sure! Now that you say it, I can be totally certain of it! Wrong accents of the voices in a preview version video absolutely mean the game will be full of bugs and unplayable

At least use stronger arguments, please. :nope:

Cheers :rock:

[Binary101]

It's funny the way Ubisoft thinks they can deal with this problem by pissing off their user base probably turning people to looking for an alternate pirated version, and almost daring all the crackers out there to crack their games now.

Also this time you can only play in a Type VII sub, so when the a new sub type comes out guess what you'll have to do.... pay more money. What about mods now would the servers still allow modded games to played?

[jwilliams]

What about mods now would the servers still allow modded games to played?

Im guessing the OSP doesnt check your game for mods etc. it only checks that the version your playing is the one tied to your account. i see no reason why mods wouldnt work in single player games.

[Binary101]

Im guessing the OSP doesnt check your game for mods etc. it only checks that the version your playing is the one tied to your account. i see no reason why mods wouldnt work in single player games.

That's not much reassurance, :-? look at Modern Warfare 2 and the way they locked that game down no dedicated servers and no Mods. Yea simpler and easier for players my ass, you have to wait up to 5 mins to find a server.... Hopefully Ubisoft don't go down that road.

[Brag]

There is only one way to stop sinister schemes by Ubi and other publishers. Speak with our wallets. Simply don't allow these people to control your life--When they realize they are losing money, they may develop some respect for their customers. :salute::salute::salute:

[Steeltrap]

There is only one way to stop sinister schemes by Ubi and other publishers. Speak with our wallets. Simply don't allow these people to control your life--When they realize they are losing money, they may develop some respect for their customers. :salute::salute::salute:

:sign_yeah:

Well, "control your life" is a little hyperbolic, but I agree with the general sentiment.

[Reece]

When they realize they are losing money, they may develop some respect for their customers. :salute::salute::salute:I would doubt that, the only thing they are concerned with is money!!:stare: Our only hope is for poor sales forcing them to remove the DRM!!:x If the game is cracked in a short period I will have a good laugh!!:yep:

[Gunnodayak]

If the game is cracked in a short period I will have a good laugh!!:yep:
I am SURE I will have that laugh that you've been talking about in the end of march or around, if not even earlier ...:haha:

[TDK1044]

I really like this post.

http://hothardware.com/cs/forums/p/46855/350422.aspx

It says it all. I particularly like the opening....'Ubisoft is one of the largest video game publishing companies in the world, but when it comes to DRM (http://hothardware.com/Tags/DRM.aspx) (Digital Rights Management), the corporate executives at the helm have the collective intelligence of a ham sandwich'.

Brilliant. :DL

[Boyarpunk]

I really like this post.

http://hothardware.com/cs/forums/p/46855/350422.aspx

It says it all. I particularly like the opening....'Ubisoft is one of the largest video game publishing companies in the world, but when it comes to DRM (http://hothardware.com/Tags/DRM.aspx) (Digital Rights Management), the corporate executives at the helm have the collective intelligence of a ham sandwich'.

Brilliant. :DL

Sounds like my last three of four bosses :haha:

[fireship4]

It says in this article that with this system "the game doesn't save before it throws you out." (!)

Does this mean when it "pauses" as you loose your connection, you don't have the option to save between then and exiting the game? Or that you do, but when it finally exits there is no automatic save?

I guess we will have to wait and find out (from someone else!).