The gawd-almighty merged DRM in Silent Hunter V thread [Archive] - Page 7

Seafireliv

02-22-10, 11:53 AM

There are just people sick of seeing the DRM topic permeate every single thread in the forum. .

And perhaps there`s a very good reason why? If 80% of members feel strongly about an issue, is it right to then to corral them in a pen so the minority can hail the praises of some other minor thing?

I know you see this as some kind of righteous crusade, but there are others who just want to read about and discuss the game itself. So actually, "by being stuck in one thread" the forum is being kept neat and organized and discussion topics are kept homogeneous.

Quite frankly, and take it for what you will, your constant harping on DRM with every single post is getting old. You're not going to buy the game - we get it.

And it`s that kind of attitude that allows companies like UBI to think they can get away with what they`re doing.

Funny to think that our `harping on` in our `righteuous crusade` will actually benefit the likes of YOU as well as us if UBI turn it around. And I`ll bet you won`t thank us later when they do.

Better that if you aren`t going to help make things better that you just don`t say anything at all and play your leased internt 24\7 singleplayer game when you get it.

onelifecrisis

02-22-10, 11:56 AM

And perhaps there`s a very good reason why? If 80% of members feel strongly about an issue, is it right to then to corral them in a pen so the minority can hail the praises of some other minor thing?

If Neal would just set up a forum called the "I'm not buying cos of DRM" forum, problem solved. Until then, you're right, those of us in that 20% will just have to read you writing "I'm not buying cos of DRM" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

Nisgeis

02-22-10, 12:06 PM

As prevalent as DRM is at the moment, this may be the calm before the storm. I wouldn't like to be on the 'official' forum when people find out what they've bought. Or those that knew find their connection isn't as good as they thought.

Sailor Steve

02-22-10, 12:14 PM

And it`s that kind of attitude that allows companies like UBI to think they can get away with what they`re doing.
You couldn't be more wrong. Objecting to it, signing petitions, starting threads, posting in threads - all those are good things, up to a point.

Spamming in unrelated threads is not only objectionable, but starts to turn those who agree with you into opponents, if not outright enemies.

Some of us are going to far with this.

Méo

02-22-10, 12:16 PM

You couldn't be more wrong. Objecting to it, signing petitions, starting threads, posting in threads - all those are good things, up to a point.

Spamming in unrelated threads is not only objectionable, but starts to turn those who agree with you into opponents, if not outright enemies.

Some of us are going to far with this.

Couldn't agree more. :up:

michaelws

02-22-10, 12:26 PM

agreed. The word will get out without jumping posts and spamming in unrelated topics. It will serve only to annoy.

onelifecrisis

02-22-10, 12:33 PM

Would be nice, but let's face it - it won't happen any time soon.
I think I'll give this forum a brief break and see how things are after release.

Brag

02-22-10, 12:59 PM

HeinzMcDurgen

02-22-10, 01:04 PM

I'm betting all PC games will go to online authentication eventually. True, there are a few people on the planet who play games in their doublewide without internet accesss, and there are occasions where internet access is not available to play, but the PC gamer is usually connected to the web 24/7.

Too bad this also applies to anyone deployed. First the headache of buying a game at the PX only to find out you need STEAM to play it, now this... Awesome.

F- you internet-needing games.

-SGT Hinerman
82nd PATHFINDERS
RC South, Afghanistan

jwilliams

02-22-10, 04:06 PM

If Neal would just set up a forum called the "I'm not buying cos of DRM" forum, problem solved. Until then, you're right, those of us in that 20% will just have to read you writing "I'm not buying cos of DRM" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

:o My eyes!!! my eyes!!! sooooo painful to read :o

Catfish

02-22-10, 04:17 PM

Broken By Design: Ubisoft's New DRM Scheme, Their Worst Misstep Yet :

http://hothardware.com/News/Broken-By-Design-Ubisofts-New-DRM-Scheme-is-Companys-Worst-Misstep-Yet/

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2: OMG, this was to the point :woot:

Greetings,
Catfish

IanC

02-22-10, 04:26 PM

Too bad this also applies to anyone deployed. First the headache of buying a game at the PX only to find out you need STEAM to play it, now this... Awesome.

F- you internet-needing games.

-SGT Hinerman
82nd PATHFINDERS
RC South, Afghanistan

This form of game protection is actually denying the brave men and women who are defending the free world, from playing. Wonderful.
I guess that's just a small detail to the Ubi suits. As long as the pirates won't be able to make copies during the first year, and that nobody will be able to resale their games, that's the important thing... :nope:

Nordmann

02-22-10, 06:09 PM

Too bad this also applies to anyone deployed. First the headache of buying a game at the PX only to find out you need STEAM to play it, now this... Awesome.

F- you internet-needing games.

-SGT Hinerman
82nd PATHFINDERS
RC South, Afghanistan

Sadly, most people don't give a damn about the forces, so you can expect the games industry to follow the trend. It's disgusting really, but not surprising, given the anti-war sentiment most socialist liberals entertain these days.

Binary101

02-22-10, 06:33 PM

There is only one way to stop sinister schemes by Ubi and other publishers. Speak with our wallets. Simply don't allow these people to control your life--When they realize they are losing money, they may develop some respect for their customers. :salute::salute::salute:

Guess what Ubisoft will do when they get crappy sales, oh man those damn pirates.... MOAR DRMS!!!!

Seafireliv

02-22-10, 06:34 PM

Sadly, most people don't give a damn about the forces, so you can expect the games industry to follow the trend. It's disgusting really, but not surprising, given the anti-war sentiment most socialist liberals entertain these days.

Eh what? You are revealing more your deep seated personal point of view rather than the reality. I highly doubt socialism and anti-war sentiment made the suits in the boardroom decide to ignore the military while thinking about their DRM for a GAME.

The reality is greed. The military angle probably didn`t enter even the smallest minutes of the decision making; just like it didn`t take into account poor people with no internet and those who don`t have the area with good internet and just like it didn`t take into account how many people would be upset by this.

.

michaelws

02-22-10, 06:47 PM

Easy there Nordmann...I am a liberal...and I have served my time. Let's keep politics out of here. People do care nowadays....not like in the Vietnam era when I was of age.

Your statement hurt.

Dutch

02-22-10, 08:32 PM

Easy there Nordmann...I am a liberal...and I have served my time. Let's keep politics out of here. People do care nowadays....not like in the Vietnam era when I was of age.

Your statement hurt.

I salute you sir, but I do think you can agree that your fellow constituents are in fact bleeding this country broke.

Politics aside though, thank you very much for you service.

mookiemookie

02-22-10, 08:47 PM

Sadly, most people don't give a damn about the forces, so you can expect the games industry to follow the trend. It's disgusting really, but not surprising, given the anti-war sentiment most socialist liberals entertain these days.

To further derail the topic, anti-war does not mean anti-soldier. And your opinions are out of place here. Take it to GT if you want to spout that nonsense. :nope:

Back on topic now - it will be interesting to see if the pirates pull off a DDoS attack on the Ubi DRM servers once Assassin's Creed 2 is released. I've heard rumblings of such....I doubt SH5 will be a big enough release for them to do so, but AC2 will be. It will be a trial by fire on Ubi's master plan. Wonder how it will hold up.

Steeltrap

02-22-10, 08:52 PM

I salute you sir, but I do think you can agree that your fellow constituents are in fact bleeding this country broke.

Probably best to leave politics to other boards, no? I'm tempted to reply to that comment, but it won't help this thread (and I'm not from USA, although we are allies).

Cheers

jwilliams

02-22-10, 10:42 PM

it will be interesting to see if the pirates pull off a DDoS attack on the Ubi DRM servers once Assassin's Creed 2 is released. I've heard rumblings of such....I doubt SH5 will be a big enough release for them to do so, but AC2 will be. It will be a trial by fire on Ubi's master plan. Wonder how it will hold up.

Yeah im sure Ubi will see a DDoS attack.... given all the hate towards Ubi's OSP. even steam got DDoS on it's launch and now most people love steam... i never had a prob with steam (offline mode FTW) but ima gonna Hate OSP with a passion

kylania

02-23-10, 01:11 AM

In case you've missed it. This is a massive petition that may work. You can also make fairly long comments. When I signed it had over 1600 signatures

http://www.petitiononline.com/ew15dl94/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/ew15dl94/petition.html)

1800+ when I signed. I was really really looking forward to SH5, but I'll not spend my money on this product now, nor any ubisoft product. Doing so would only prove to the Ubisoft execs that they can pull this kind of crap with their customers and we'll PAY for it to be done to us.

JScones

02-23-10, 02:39 AM

Back on topic now - it will be interesting to see if the pirates pull off a DDoS attack on the Ubi DRM servers once Assassin's Creed 2 is released. I've heard rumblings of such....I doubt SH5 will be a big enough release for them to do so, but AC2 will be. It will be a trial by fire on Ubi's master plan. Wonder how it will hold up.
Ooh, ouch. That'll hurt if they pull it off.

Brag

02-23-10, 06:33 AM

Mookie, an interesting observation. The uproar of AC gamers and other biggies is huge. I thought Ubi was smart enough yo do a test on SH to see if it works. Nooooo! The marketing suits went big. The least dangerous for Ubi is the growing boycott.

The longer Ubi waits, the worse will be the train crash.

Elder-Pirate

02-23-10, 12:30 PM

Either get aboard or jump from the UBISOFT train.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/TrainSteamer.gif

Personally I got off at the last station for I do not want to be on a bad train wreck. :arrgh!:

maurader

02-24-10, 01:30 AM

Just read an article about EA's Battlefield Bad Company 2.
This whole online DRM nonsense was made big by EA with their Spore release. (Actually online activations were extremely popular with high end application software way before EA's Spore).
Now everyone seems to be jumping on the "online" DRM methods.
I think EA is learned their lesson when Spore became the biggest pirated video game in history. (I dont know if it still holds that title).

At any rate, I like what EA is doing with the Battlefield Bad Company 2 release. (It actually mirrors the SimBin Racing games model).

If you buy a retail copy and have the DVD in the drive when you start the game, you dont have to activate or go online in order to play the single player game. It is a total offline experience.

If dont have the DVD in the drive, you can activate the game online and then play it without needing the disk in the drive. You can do this on up to 10 machines. Deactivations are possible by uninstalling the game.

To play online, you will need to activate it online (as above).

Games by SimBin (RACE07, GTR Evolution, Race On) are similar because during install you can select an offline version or a online version. The offline requires the DVD everytime you play (steam is not installed). The online version installs steam and has to be activated but allows online multiplayer.

I like these 2 methods because it gives the "customer" a choice and we are not bound by what the developer decides to do in the future.

I was kind of pushed away from EA when they started doing the online activation methods but I am glad they are moving in this direction. I almost passed up on Battlefield Bad Company 2 but now I guess EA is going to get my money now instead of Ubisoft.

Shame I would have prefered to get SH5 instead of Battlefield but I am going to give my money to a developer who actually listens to their customers.

Brag

02-24-10, 06:24 AM

Freedom of choice for the customer is definetely a benefit lacking with Ubisoft

Von Manteuffel

02-24-10, 08:10 AM

I've been away from Subsim for a long time. It's good to see it so healthy and with so many of the familiar "Kaleuns" still pitching. I hope you are all well and prospering.
I had ordered SH5, then cancelled. I do most of my game-playing when I travel, which I do a great deal. I even have a beefed up laptop to this end.
Some of the hotels I stay in don't have in-room internet access; many do, but charge exorbitant rates for it. So I'm either going to be unable to play the game at all, or I'm going to have to pay extra for the internet access which allows me to do so.

Sorry - not for me. It's Napoleon Total War from now on.

Reece

02-24-10, 08:14 AM

Freedom of choice for the customer is definetely a benefit lacking with UbisoftAnd Ubisoft will be lacking a lot of money from us!!:haha: Since we're not spending money on SH5 we can buy something else like a good U-boat novel Brag, or is it Alexey!:03:

Brag

02-24-10, 08:50 AM

And Ubisoft will be lacking a lot of money from us!!:haha: Since we're not spending money on SH5 we can buy something else like a good U-boat novel Brag, or is it Alexey!:03:

When it comes to names, I respond to several. The first is, hey You!. Russians call me Alexey Valerianovich, Chileans call me Don Alex. Subsimmers: You Bastard! :D

When it comes to novels, been trying to find a publisher for The Gelwitz Cipher, where the secret voyage of a XXi type plays a key role. So far, no takers.

HKLE

02-24-10, 03:10 PM

Ubi Marc obviously had enough. So he closed the relevant discussion at the UBI forum ....

I guess, UBI really gets a lot of heat for this crap. They start showing nerves ???

Brag

02-24-10, 03:17 PM

Ubi Marc obviously had enough. So he closed the relevant discussion at the UBI forum ....

I guess, UBI really gets a lot of heat for this crap. They start showing nerves ???

I lurked at the Ubi forum yesterday, the DRM bashing was in full swing. If I remember right, they had more anti DRM threads than our corralled Moo jobs :haha:

Ubi should be getting nervous. AC 2 (release 16 March) and Settlers have great opposition to DRM. Most press is against DRM. Christian Science Monitor is against. Petitions are flying everywhere. If this is a storm, we have only seen the beginning. :yep:

tommyk

02-24-10, 03:29 PM

I wonder how it feels to put so much energy into shv and see it strangled by some french managers from far far away with their dreams of the perfect DRM... I can only imagine the discussions about health-bars and such. the devs must have been excided by the game-designers suggestions... keeping the sim-parts while implementing speech-bubbles... I will instant-buy shv if I can only get rid of the always-online-drm...

kylania

02-24-10, 04:28 PM

I lurked at the Ubi forum yesterday, the DRM bashing was in full swing. If I remember right, they had more anti DRM threads than our corralled Moo jobs :haha:

Ubi should be getting nervous. AC 2 (release 16 March) and Settlers have great opposition to DRM. Most press is against DRM. Christian Science Monitor is against. Petitions are flying everywhere. If this is a storm, we have only seen the beginning. :yep:

Sadly it probably won't have any impact. As someone on BluesNews pointed out, there was that huge uproar about dedicated servers for MW2 and that sold and sold and sold.

Assassin's Creed 2 will sell and sell and sell just for being AC2. Now, should UbiSoft get DDoS'd to hell and back when AC2 comes out, we might see something happen, but banking on AC2 not selling due to DRM simply won't happen I'm afraid.

Nisgeis

02-24-10, 04:34 PM

Sadly it probably won't have any impact. As someone on BluesNews pointed out, there was that huge uproar about dedicated servers for MW2 and that sold and sold and sold.

Not for PC it didn't. Did the consoles need dedicated servers too?

OakGroove

02-24-10, 06:17 PM

Ubi Marc obviously had enough. So he closed the relevant discussion at the UBI forum ....

I guess, UBI really gets a lot of heat for this crap. They start showing nerves ???

Ban stick was swinging last time i visited, guess he put on his asbestos suit and will have to wear it for an undisclosed period.

3Dfr34k2009

02-24-10, 06:22 PM

2139 petitions signed and counting!.

Keep going guys until the battle against the Ubisoft morons are won.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7907/ubidumb.jpg

Ragtag

02-24-10, 06:36 PM

2139 petitions signed and counting!.

Keep going guys until the battle against the Ubisoft morons are won.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7907/ubidumb.jpg

LOL... epic:har:

frenema

02-24-10, 07:06 PM

2139 petitions signed and counting!.

Keep going guys until the battle against the Ubisoft morons are won.

SH5 isn't the only game Ubisoft will release and they're a billion dollar company. So unless the petition signatures reach 10 million they're not going to care at all unfortunately.

And I just have one simple question to those who support DRM for whatever reason: Much has been said about how piracy is ruining PC game sales, but has there ever been a case where game sales went up because of DRM?

Eightbit

02-24-10, 08:21 PM

Man this is terrible. My net has been dropping randomly and constantly since the 18th. The last 7 hours it has been completely down. If any of you have ever had such a problem you can appreciate what a pain it is to try and get solved.

But for those that love drm. Especially this kind. Do me a favour and unplug your internet and leave it that way for 4 days and see how it feels.

Now here is the problem. Sure 99.9% of the time it may be just fine and dandy. Great connection enjoying the game etc. But it just makes that .01% of the time THAT much worse. And it's all for nothing.

Call me one of the "unlucky ones" but thats not all. Steam broke their offline feature on the 19th and only just fixed it today. So it was only insult to injury.

I like steam, and appreciate that things go wrong. But it's pretty frustrating not being to play any of the stuff I bought on it.

Philipp_Thomsen

02-24-10, 08:43 PM

The famous cryptographer and security guru Bruce Schneier has written about the futility of digital copy prevention and says it's an impossible task. He says "What the entertainment industry is trying to do is to use technology to contradict that natural law. They want a practical way to make copying hard enough to save their existing business. But they are doomed to fail."[62] He has also described trying to make digital files uncopyable as being like "trying to make water not wet".[63]

Thats from Wikipedia.

Depends on what they put on the EULA, but most likely yes.

Edited: PLEASE, read the rules. --NS

Its a long discussion whether this is nice or not, but once you buy the finished product, you will be pretty pissed off if you cant play cos of the temporary internet unavailability.

Are they paying for your internet? Nope.

jwilliams

02-24-10, 09:13 PM

Call me one of the "unlucky ones" but thats not all. Steam broke their offline feature on the 19th and only just fixed it today. So it was only insult to injury.

I like steam, and appreciate that things go wrong. But it's pretty frustrating not being to play any of the stuff I bought on it.

The Steam i use, if it cant detect an internet (eg. if i unplug it or turn it off in windows) then it launches in offline mode. cant see how they could break it if im not connected???

Edit {unless you download a patch before the 19th that turned off the offline feature?}

3Dfr34k2009

02-24-10, 09:28 PM

I will like to see the faces of the Ubi-suits when the sales of Silent Hunter 5 are falling more deep than the Mariana Trench.:woot:

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1580/silenthunter5.jpg

LiveGoat

02-24-10, 11:48 PM

How about DRM that is timed to go offline by a certain date? Say a game, like SH5, has OSP that basically checks the date when you start a gaming session and log on but after say 3 months (or whatever date is selected by the devs) the game reverts to an offline version with save to hard drive. Also when one does a reinstall, the game sees that the date for OSP is past and doesn't bother with the DRM. This way their peak sales are assured and when things taper off they can give the gamers their autonomy. People who buy the game during the post sales hype will get the same version but will simply have to authenticate with an included code offline like a normal game.

Is this a good idea? A dumb idea? I don't know I'm just putting it out there. There has to be a way to make everybody happy.

scrapser

02-24-10, 11:56 PM

It's a good idea. I'm sure it was discussed and would love to know why it was not pursued.

razark

02-25-10, 12:07 AM

It's a good idea. I'm sure it was discussed and would love to know why it was not pursued.

Several reasons:

1. Because if they manage to put out a really great game that is very popular, there will still be pirates in three months.

2. If they intend to sell DLC later on, piracy protection would be a good thing to have.

3. They would be giving up control.

4. People would just wait a few months and pirate it then, instead of buying it right away.

5. They haven't really released any technical information on how OSP really works. Maybe they did something like this. It's possible, but I doubt it. With the backlash they're seeing, they would have said something by now if they had done it this way.

scrapser

02-25-10, 12:22 AM

Several reasons:

1. Because if they manage to put out a really great game that is very popular, there will still be pirates in three months.

2. If they intend to sell DLC later on, piracy protection would be a good thing to have.

3. They would be giving up control.

4. People would just wait a few months and pirate it then, instead of buying it right away.

5. They haven't really released any technical information on how OSP really works. Maybe they did something like this. It's possible, but I doubt it. With the backlash they're seeing, they would have said something by now if they had done it this way.

Well I can sum up everything about DRM in any form it has ever had or ever will have....

"Control is an illusion."

The above idea was to mitigate loss of profits. The argument against taking a similar approach to the one described because people may wait until it expires doesn't wash because people could just do the same thing until the title hits the bargain bins. Piracy will never be stopped...it's impossible. Ubisoft is trying to do damage control and I understand that but they don't seem to be interested in working with their customers on finding the best solution. They just put stuff out there to see what happens and so far it hasn't done anything for piracy that any other company has done differently and if anything, damaged whatever goodwill people have for Ubisoft as a brand.

Letum

02-25-10, 12:56 AM

The company behind starforce have systems that work in this manner.

Nordmann

02-25-10, 07:54 AM

*Laughs long and hard* Epic! Now that's going on the drive.

Onkel Neal

02-25-10, 09:37 AM

Prediction: after SH5 and AC2 comes out, strange whispers of " my computer is acting funny, it's doing this or that." or "Since I loaded AC2 with its draconian DRM, my internet connection hangs up/overloads/something awful".

Then the whispers become an outcry, and soon it's "Ubisoft's OSP will ruin your network adapters, or something".

There, I said it.

Letum

02-25-10, 09:41 AM

So cynical!

Nordmann

02-25-10, 09:47 AM

Méo

02-25-10, 09:50 AM

It's strange, I almost get the impression that you like DRM. It might just be the way I interpret your posts, but that's what it looks like to me.

Ok even if he does, there is something wrong?

Because someone don't have the same opinion about it, it's wrong?

(I've already said that most of us would come back anytime to the good old days of PC gaming, execpt for graphics ;))

Nordmann

02-25-10, 09:52 AM

Ok even if he does, there is something wrong?

Because someone don't have the same opinion about it, it's wrong?

(I've already said that most of us would come back anytime to the good old days of PC gaming, execpt for graphics ;))

Did I say wrong? No I didn't. Still, I cannot understand anyone actually "liking" this OSP rubbish, it really holds no advantages for the player.

Onkel Neal

02-25-10, 09:57 AM

You get that impression because you think that if someone does not rage against it, they must like it :)

I will explain exactly what I think, again. I do not like DRM, I do not like CD serial keys, having the CD in the tray to play, online activation, user passwords, firewalls, Captcha, virus protection, anti-spambot Q&A, ATM pin codes; I don't like any of it, Sam I am. But they are necessary because people steal, people do things they should not do and they are hidden by lies and anonimity. So, DRM has become necessary. I am not closing my eyes to the real fact that game companies should get paid if someone plays the game. And I won't argue "piracy <> lost sales", or the other typical stuff we have seen 1000 times. If the DRM works, then hopefully Ubisoft will make a good pile of $$ on SH5 and fund another one with a bigger budget and more generous development cycle.

No, I don't like DRM, but I'm not going to go all mob and pitchforks over it either. Ok? :salute:

Disclaimer: I do not think that all people who oppose the DRM are software pirates. Some are, some are not. Peace.

Méo

02-25-10, 10:00 AM

Did I say wrong? No I didn't. Still, I cannot understand anyone actually "liking" this OSP rubbish, it really holds no advantages for the player.

Of course you did not say 'wrong'.

But when you say that you got the strange impression that he likes DRM, I assume you insinuate it is somewhat 'wrong'.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of your post (#1555)

But it doesn't really matter, as Neal said: Peace.

Fire

02-25-10, 10:06 AM

:up:

http://www.cad-comic.com/comics/cad/20100219.jpg

Nordmann

02-25-10, 10:09 AM

No, I don't like DRM, but I'm not going to go all mob and pitchforks over it either. Ok? :salute:

That's your choice, but unless the consumer speaks out, nothing will ever change. In fact, it is likely that many companies will begin to adopt similar policies, further alienating the PC gamer, and potentially restricting PC titles to those with constant and reliable (shoot, there goes most of Europe!) net connections.

Disclaimer: I do not think that all people who oppose the DRM are software pirates. Some are, some are not. Peace.

It's funny really, I've seen such accusations levelled in a few threads over the past few weeks, but it isn't logical at all. DRM is a non issue to pirates, these enterprising individuals work their way round such "protection" within hours of the game's release!

Of course you did not say 'wrong'.

But when you say that you got the strange impression that he likes DRM, I assume you insinuate it is somewhat 'wrong'.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of your post (#1555)

But it doesn't really matter, as Neal said: Peace.

I was insinuating nothing, only attempting to clarify the meaning of Neal's posts on the subject. That was the point of my post, not that I need to justify it to you. Thanks.

OakGroove

02-25-10, 10:24 AM

Still, I cannot understand anyone actually "liking" this OSP rubbish, it really holds no advantages for the player.

scrap "liking", insert "tolerating". I haven't met a single person, aside of the devil and his minions, who would like, or advocate this particular DRM with reason. In general, all that DRM implementations have "achieved" to date, is an increase in production costs, while making the experience less convenient for the consumer. Sometimes (early Starforce versions) this could translate not only into inconvenience, but also solid Hardware defects. DRM did, and does not prevent piracy. The evidence is right out there up for grabs. With every new title released.

Letum

02-25-10, 10:26 AM

...they are necessary because people steal [...] So, DRM has become necessary.

If online DRM was necessary, than all games would have it (it would be
necessary for them to have it!). That they don't, shows it isn't.
It may be advantageous, but it can't be necessary.

Somewhere between no DRM and cutting off fingers of gamers to prevent
piracy, there is a happy medium between the the need of producers to
protect their game and the need of customers to have rights to what they
paid for.

You appear to think that Ubisoft's new DRM has not crossed the line and
become to much of a problem for the customer to justify. Fair enough.

It's all about what you are prepared to put up with in the battle against
piracy. What it isn't about is having to put up with something because it is
necessary. It evidently isn't.

It may yet be revealed to be the case that not having such intrusive DRM
is necessary for a game to sell. That all depends on where people draw the line.

JackAubrey

02-25-10, 10:30 AM

Sorry if the Video has already been posted here.

I don't know if you have seen the Ubisoft DRM in Action.

The German Game Magazine "Gamestar" posted a Video on its Facebook Page to show how the DRM works in their Test Version of "Assassins Creed 2". The Network Cable gets unplugged while playing the game.

Basically, the game shuts down, prompts you to save and goes back to desktop.
For you non-germans:
The guy in the Video says at the end, that they cannot say if its really like that in the retail version, but they are fearing that it is. If you use a somewhat unstable WLAN connection, playing would be interrupted.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1316312900728&ref=mf

I also just read:

The victims of PC gaming DRM: one soldier's story (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/02/the-victims-of-pc-gaming-drm-one-soldiers-story.ars)

With companies like Ubisoft leading the way to a future where all PC games need to be in contact with their home servers all the time, one group is being particularly harmed by this movement: soldiers stationed in remote locations. Life on deployment is hard, psychologically demanding, and often lonely for soldiers missing their loved ones and families. Gaming is a popular pastime in American bases, but DRM can take that away.
This sort of DRM makes sense for a world where every device is always connected to some magically open and always-on Internet connection. That world is a very long way away, so by requiring an Internet connection at all times to play a game that isn't online itself is simply alienating an audience. This approach also represents a poor attempt to attack piracy by attacking people who want to pay you money for the game you've made impossible for them to play.
via Arstechnica.com

Onkel Neal

02-25-10, 11:56 AM

scrap "liking", insert "tolerating".

Thank you.

It's funny really, I've seen such accusations levelled in a few threads over the past few weeks, but it isn't logical at all. DRM is a non issue to pirates, these scumbag individuals work their way round such "protection" within hours of the game's release!

We will see. And fixed.

kylania

02-25-10, 01:27 PM

goldorak

02-25-10, 02:26 PM

You can't honestly believe this (any!) DRM will do anything about pirates? DRM has not, does not and will not do anything to stop true pirates.

At most it would be a minor inconvenience to a pirate, confuse for a day or two a scriptkidde yet completely and constantly punish a paying customer.

Such a wrong misconception.
DRM is not designed to stop pirates, its designed to take away control from the legitimate customer. :arrgh!:

wetwarev7

02-25-10, 02:30 PM

Brag

02-25-10, 05:59 PM

I've skipped the last hundred pages or so of this thread, so....

Something else that has occured to me regarding the whole being online while playing issue is that it changes things from a purchase to Ubi now providing me with a service. I wonder if Ubisoft has considered the implications of not having a proper service agreement, and what legel holes they might be digging for themselves due to loss of service issues?

:hmmm:

And, what kind of legal rights and expectations do consumers have when buying software that requires a constant internet connection for use?

A very interesting angle. Something a specialized lawyer would need to take a look at. This could place a number of companies into unexpected circumstances. If you have to log in to play something you don't own . . .

IanC

02-25-10, 06:27 PM

It's funny really, I've seen such accusations levelled in a few threads over the past few weeks, but it isn't logical at all. DRM is a non issue to pirates, these enterprising individuals work their way round such "protection" within hours of the game's release!

That's a good point. It's not the pirates who are complaining, they're probably smiling and rubbing their hands at having a new project to 'work' on.

Elder-Pirate

02-25-10, 06:44 PM

I absolutely refuse to not be a pirate!.............err I mean my user name. :oops::D

Actually I do play the role of a game pirate while playing "Age of Pirates 2", but that's legal. :arrgh!: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/duel1-1.gif

Now back to this wonderful story about Dumb Ruptured Mutations. :dead:

michaelws

02-25-10, 06:59 PM

Dumb Ruptured Mutations. Love it.

Mikkow

02-25-10, 07:07 PM

I think the proposal is completely irellevant for Ubi, because piracy is probably only a small reason of their motives for this new online requirement.

In the past, Ubi has been known to insert spyware into their software, without notice, that collects personal information about you, your computer and how you use the game (the details are unknown to me), and then sends it live through a permanent internet connection to Ubi.

The data is valuable to them. Their marketing department gets loads of new information to go on. Planning future products can make use of information on anything relating to how the previous products were used with who, how, with what, etc.

One requirement now is that we not only stay connected, using our personally identifiable profile, at all times (and in that sense, who knows what information we are providing them with through our connection), but also that they make claim on saved files. Question here is also - what do these saves contain beyond just the position we were at in the game? Since we cannot even access them ourselves, they get access to enormous amounts of snapshots/files stored on their servers, containing information that can be analyzed, and which is personally identifiable to the customer.

Not being constantly connected would mean they cannot monitor and collect information about you, and the saves would problaby then also not be saved at their servers, meaning the information the saves could provide to them is also lost.

jwilliams

02-25-10, 07:44 PM

I've skipped the last hundred pages or so of this thread, so....

Something else that has occured to me regarding the whole being online while playing issue is that it changes things from a purchase to Ubi now providing me with a service. I wonder if Ubisoft has considered the implications of not having a proper service agreement, and what legel holes they might be digging for themselves due to loss of service issues?

:hmmm:

And, what kind of legal rights and expectations do consumers have when buying software that requires a constant internet connection for use?

Im sure that Ubisoft will add a TOU (terms of use) aggrement to their EULA that will state "Ubisoft will not be held resposible for not being able to connect to the servers, server downtime, lost saves and data" etc.

I dont see people sueing Blizzard every time their severs go down (blizzard have a similar statement on their TOU).
www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html)

admobadmo

02-25-10, 10:18 PM

At least Blizzard has a pretty good incentive to get their servers back online: if people can't play, they'll stop paying every month.

For a game you pay for just once, where's the incentive to make sure the servers stay on? Just wondering...:hmmm:

Elder-Pirate

02-25-10, 10:35 PM

Archive1

02-25-10, 11:45 PM

I wonder to what extent UBI considered the geographic differences and weather pattern differences between the US and Europe. For example:

1. The electric grid in the US covers massive areas and thus has multiple areas of frequent power failures. Europe covers smaller areas and has a higher density of population. (My father in law was in charge of the power grid for the entire northern half of Illinois.) Ergo: 'continuous' online connections will often fail in the US.

2. In the US we have regular ice storms in the midwest (lost power), torrential rains in the midwest and southwest (lost power), hurricanes in the gulf states (lost power), tornados in the western states (lost power). Europe does not have this variety since the land mass is relatively small. (I have lived in all these areas and Europe.) Ergo: 'continuous' online connections will often fail in the US.

Here in the Pacific NW we have power outages at least 10 times a year - 10 minutes to 6-8 hours.

Perhaps in Romania they don't know this. Perhaps in Romania they are aware of it but feel they can write off sales in the US. In any case, 'continuous' online connections in the US are limited at best.

Seems they are writing a future course for business schools in "How not to introduce a follow on product into a mature industry for a company with an established reputation."

mookiemookie

02-25-10, 11:48 PM

Perhaps in Romania they don't know this. Perhaps in Romania they are aware of it but feel they can write off sales in the US.

Game developers in Romania ≠ Ubisoft corporate in France. Ubisoft corporate the publisher are the ones making the DRM decision...not our friends in the development studio in Romania.

alx100

02-26-10, 07:41 AM

Interesting interview here with Ubisoft by PC Gamer and why Ubi are doing what they are doing regarding online connection:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg

I find it funny that Ubi cant even come up with a decent answer for the benefit for us gamers for permanent internet connection. I dont mind putting the CD in everytime; its not exactly hard; and i prefer to save games on my machine; not on their server so thats not really any benefit to me.

Sorry if the link has been posted before; i havent really gone back through the whole 100 pages

Topcat357

02-26-10, 12:17 PM

It is fairly obvious that pirating is a major problem in many areas of todays marketplace (movies, music, all pc games, etc). It seems that it would be a major factor in what most of us are very interested in: PC simulations. You have to admit, Submarine Sims (as well as any other 'hardcore' sim) is not going to make as much money as any other type of PC game. The smaller market for these type of games, plus the inevitable piracy has got to be a big deterrent for developing these sims.
We have all seen PC game protection types come and go. Usually they are hacked even before the game comes out. The Ubi DRM method seems to be fairly efficient at preventing pirating of the game. I KNOW, it will probably be hacked too...we will see. I understand the problems presented to folks with poor or no internet access. I wish there was a better protection method, but I can't think of one...can you?
If you don't buy the game because of the DRM, I understand and hope that your message forces Ubi to come up with a better protection method. I am holding off on buying this game due to concerns of gameplay, not the DRM...hoping for some good reviews in the first few days!

Sorry for the Rant...feel free to ignore it.

TC357

Schunken

02-26-10, 12:24 PM

...for my point of view: I do not like DRM but can life with it, my router anyway is 24/7 connected....but:

Since the Commodore 64 I saw copy protection fail - its just a question of time....

The DRM will also fail, maybe not so quick, but it will!

What do you think if we catch the problem from another side?

How much will the DRM and the Servers for it cost?

And now imagine Silent Hunter 5 in a nice box, printed manual, a extra DVD with historical movies, a captains heat (replica for sure). Put the money that you invest in (sooner or later irrelevant) copy protection and improve the game and add useful and nice goodies....

and poeple will buy thankfully!

Andreas

Dutch

02-26-10, 12:27 PM

SeaSprite

02-26-10, 12:28 PM

Talking about DRM, although we didn't call it that back then, who rememebrs the old manual approach? Look up page 4, line 6 word 4 and type that in? Remember how annoying it was if someone had lost their manual, or it had been destroyed, but these were circumvented too.

Oh yes, we had large manuals back then too...

Topcat357

02-26-10, 12:29 PM

Good ideas...I know other types of games are also using downloadable content to verify game installation and encourage folks to buy the game.

TC357

SeaSprite

02-26-10, 12:30 PM

Absolutely not a necessary evil.

That would be the same as every time you walk into the bank to withdraw your money that the security guard shoots you in the leg because after all there are bank robbers and you might be that guy.

DRM is about as necessary as that.

Actually it maybe more like you going on a flight nowadays and having to take your shoes off, or be subjected to a body scan because you might just be a terrorist...

Dutch

02-26-10, 12:32 PM

Actually it maybe more like you going on a flight nowadays and having to take your shoes off, or be subjected to a body scan because you might just be a terrorist...

But see I actually find that reasonable.

If it hurts you to take off your shoes then there is something wrong with you.

Topcat357

02-26-10, 12:33 PM

@ Dutch

lol...perhaps more like going to the airport and being made to wait in long lines and being made to walk thru a scanner that shows your nude body to all the workers looking at the screen....then having the terrorist get on the flight anyway.

TC357

Dutch

02-26-10, 12:33 PM

Hey I got two post in before this was thrown into the Gawd Alimighty DRM thread to die.

Looks like it took about 5 minutes.

Lio

02-26-10, 12:38 PM

Personaly i hope SH5 will be pirated to hell and back. I hope it will be the death of the SH series and Ubisoft all together. We are talking about a game not some piece of thousend dollar software that cures AIDS and cancer. Piracy is overrated. I cant remember the last time any of my friends mentioned they downloaded a game from the internet.
If companys release good software and support it people will buy it.
That way they get access to extra content and support.

I own all SH games. But will not be buying SH5.

This moronic DRM can go **** itself.

I wish all the folks out there a happy time cracking it!

Nick Holden

02-26-10, 12:43 PM

will this be the new DRM system for SH5 also?
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/52668/Ubisoft-Drops-PC-DRM-Takes-Everything-Online :down:

Sadly, yes.

Topcat357

02-26-10, 12:55 PM

@ Lio

- 4% of gamers (6 million) have pirated games
“Piracy, defined for this report as downloading files through Peer-to-Peer (P2P) networks, is small relative to the music industry. However, 4 percent of gamers, representing just over 6 million consumers, indicated that they downloaded files from P2P networks, with 72 percent of pirated downloads occurring for PC/Mac” – report statement

Obviously stats can be skewed in either direction, but I dont think prirating is overrated. I think your friends are still pirating games and I think that they are the direct cause of this unpopular DRM! ;) Please tell your friends to stop stealing our games so we can have a DRM-free world.

:P

TC357

LZBTD

02-26-10, 01:31 PM

What’s with all this whingeing about UBI’s new DRM about, I mean…..!! wait a cotton pickin’ minute, Did you say a PERMANENT internet connection to play the game? (Deathly cold feeling and shudders in horror). I haven’t visited the forums for a while and I thought I would check on the upcoming SH5 and what did I find ?... Subsim and UBI forums in meltdown over UBI’s DRM. I concur with virtually all of the objections mentioned on both forums (there seems to be a majority consensus) I did however did see a problem that as far as I can see has not yet been mentioned. Allow me to elucidate, I currently have SH3,4 Far Cry 2 and AC1 on my hard drive. With FC2 and AC1 my Kaspersky Internet Security Suite affects both games ie stuttering and sound problems, so I disable it for the duration of play. IF UBI think I’m going to disable my internet security to play their games they got another think coming.
Incidentally I was about to pre-order SH5 and have cancelled AC2 until further notice.

DeepIron

02-26-10, 01:46 PM

SH5 didn't make my "must buy" list, mostly due to their continuance in the DRM issue. I'm frankly tired of all this DRM rubbish and the rhetoric and arguments that prop it up...

Put the disk in the drive to play. There are effective copy-protection schemes that can make it impossible, or at the least, very difficult to crack a disk that's been physically encoded. If that isn't good enough, increase the price a bit and include a USB dongle.

I still have a very sour taste in my mouth from all the problems I had getting SH4 to authenticate, blah, blah, blah on my XP-64 system...

Ubisoft was less than helpful and I eventually abandoned playing SH4 altogether.

Cheers.

The Enigma

02-26-10, 02:18 PM

Actually it maybe more like you going on a flight nowadays and having to take your shoes off, or be subjected to a body scan because you might just be a terrorist...

And for this idiotic and overreacted measurements I don't travel by planes any longer.

Lio

02-26-10, 02:29 PM

And for this idiotic and overreacted measurements I don't travel by planes any longer.

My life wont end by not playing Ubisoft games. And not that i agree anymore with DRM then i do with the obscene measures taken againts terrorist where people happily throw all there personal liberties out the window. But i try and affect that also... just as i dont buy Ubisoft games so that i dont support em, neither do i vote for facist parties at elections who wanna turn my country into a police state.

The Enigma

02-26-10, 02:32 PM

@Lio

My life wont end either, it's just a game I'm not able to play.
No more no less.

Threesixtyci

02-26-10, 02:32 PM

bigboywooly

02-26-10, 02:34 PM

Looks like with Steam they require to be online while you play, even for single player mode. I don't like that, myself. Wonder if the boxed version will have the same DRM, or worse....

The text of the DRM is located on the right, on the bottom of the game details. Well, at least it doesn't have minimum installs. But what happens if my DSL goes down, while playing? Which does happen from time to time....
http://store.steampowered.com/app/901248/

Yes the boxed version requires you to be online also
Read any anti DRM thread in this forum

jwilliams

02-26-10, 02:37 PM

Looks like with Steam they require to be online while you play, even for single player mode. I don't like that, myself. Wonder if the boxed version will have the same DRM, or worse....

The text of the DRM is located on the right, on the bottom of the game details. Well, at least it doesn't have minimum installs. But what happens if my DSL goes down, while playing? Which does happen from time to time....
http://store.steampowered.com/app/901248/

Its the same DRM, also known as OSP (online service platform).

The game will pause if your DSL connection goes down. (hopefully it will allow you to save when it has paused, but that is unknown atm.).

Threesixtyci

02-26-10, 02:42 PM

Well... guess I won't be buying this until Steam gives it away for 5 bucks. Probably happen on the next December holiday sale.

mw2000

02-26-10, 04:10 PM

Just read this over at softpedia.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubisoft-Refuses-to-Commit-to-Patch-Out-of-Restrictive-DRM-136081.shtml

jwilliams

02-26-10, 04:17 PM

I dont realy mind DRM, i've never had anythink bad happen from it (i know some claim DRM killed their DVD drive etc.).

But i do not like the online aspect of this new system (OSP). where will it end..... will i have to go online (and create accounts) to watch my DVD's, listen to my music CD's, play my console etc.

And then theres always the posiblity that the servers you connect to will be turned off, rendering all you digital media useless. It's happening already with some downloaded music DRM's.

So lets hope this "online only" idea has a very short life.

Rockin Robbins

02-26-10, 04:25 PM

Has anyone considered that pirates succeed in large part because they release a superior product? Why was Ubi forced to release a previously pirated version of SH3? It was a superior product which consented to run on more hardware and without the aggravation of the original DRM.

Same with SH4. First Ubi released patch 1.3 with no DRM at all. Then for inexplicable reasons, they refanged SecuRom for the UBM release. It now scans your running processes for programs Sony doesn't like, including legitimate programs by Microsoft having nothing whatever to do with piracy. This invasion of my sovereignty is unacceptable.

Once the pirates are done with a program it runs quicker on more variations of hardware, is smaller, takes fewer system resources....it is just a superior product. If it were in Wal-Mart it would outsell the original.

Thank God for DRM free SH4 Gold!

jwilliams

02-26-10, 04:28 PM

Just read this over at softpedia.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubisoft-Refuses-to-Commit-to-Patch-Out-of-Restrictive-DRM-136081.shtml

Ofcause they arnt going to patch out the DRM. Only if sales slow to a crawl or this new DRM is cracked are they going to patch it out ealier.
Because releasing a patch for the DRM would mean that theres no need for the DRM.

so those holding off until they can play offline will prob be waiting a long time... (unless SH5 get pirated) sales wont drop off for awhile. simulation games still sell well along time after release.

The Enigma

02-26-10, 04:50 PM

Thank God for DRM free SH4 Gold!

Yeah, I just bought that version from Amazon, since I don't need to buy SH5 for the moment.

Archive1

02-26-10, 06:30 PM

Mookie...:
You're right - I should have just said "Europe" in my post above. In any case, my point regarding a seeming ignorance of things - grid failures and intemperate weather and power outages - in the US stands on it own.

Ilpalazzo

02-26-10, 08:03 PM

Elder-Pirate

02-26-10, 09:07 PM

Okay so I only just heard about this and I did not read past page 4. So is this all a lie or do I really have to be connected to UBI and let them have my game saves? IF this is for real then ********************************K THAT! I WILL NOT PURCHASE THIS GAME! Too bad because it was the only game I was looking forward to this year.

No you do not have to go beyond page four and no it is not a lie and yes you will have to be connected to it's Majesty UBISOFT and again yes they will save your games. In other words whats yours is theirs and whats theirs is theirs also........or will be if you play their way.

Wait a couple more days and judgement day will be unfold.

IanC

02-26-10, 09:30 PM

Wait a couple more days and judgement day will be unfold.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/470/242.gif

admobadmo

02-26-10, 09:44 PM

So then, and I'm not saying that it's good you understand, but does anybody miss the Spore version of drm yet? At the time it seemed like it would be all that was needed to finally make California fall off into the ocean. Suddenly doesn't seem quite as bad as it used to.

My other thought is, wouldn't it be nice if Stardock gets into the submarine simulation business now.

Elder-Pirate

02-26-10, 10:06 PM

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/470/242.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/awwwlt1.gif
AWwwwwwww

Yes UBI judgement day is near. :damn:

Now back to the war zone.

IanC

02-26-10, 10:18 PM

:haha:

admobadmo

02-26-10, 11:04 PM

I don't think this will end here, either. First it's a convenience to keep your game saves online. Pretty soon it's a convenience to keep the entire game online. Remember OnLive? I'm sure they're still working on that. How much longer until every new game is a pay-to-play over the internet game. They bill themselves as a service for gamers, but really, I think they're more a service for game publishers. How much more control over your game could they have then, hey, we'll crunch the numbers here for you on our computers, so you don't have to worry about it! Just play the game over the internet. Easy!

And what's this "cloud" computing? Are we just going to run all of our programs off the internet in the not-too-distant future? People already don't particularly like Microsoft, either, and they just sell a few big programs. What happens when they, or Google, or somebody else only runs everything on their server farm and allows you to just access it remotely? I'm sure to them it would look like just about the ultimate way to foil software pirates, but what are they up to really?

I guess, even if we don't live in the Matrix now, it seems like we're sure working hard on building it.

mookiemookie

02-26-10, 11:14 PM

Once the pirates are done with a program it runs quicker on more variations of hardware, is smaller, takes fewer system resources....it is just a superior product. If it were in Wal-Mart it would outsell the original.

Thank God for DRM free SH4 Gold!

That's the crux of the solution to the entire piracy problem right there. Provide a product/service that's better, faster and easier that what the pirates can, and you'll do well. See Steam and itunes for examples.

Ducimus

02-26-10, 11:18 PM

The DRM is as bad as feared, if not worse. One fella took the time to pull some plugs out of the network card to satisfy the curious:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1282259&postcount=105
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1282267&postcount=107

May as well vent your frustration here in this thread rather then jump all over the Firstcopy/first impression thread and turn that thread into another DRM b*tch fest.

Reece

02-27-10, 12:18 AM

jwilliams

02-27-10, 01:24 AM

Ubisofts DRM is sounding worse than we thought !!!!!

apprently it hijacks your connection, you are unable to disconect your connection with windows.(if OSP is running) :nope:

and theres no save option if you lose your connection. looks like you will need to save every 10mins, or risk losing your progess. hope theres no save bugs otherwise your carrer is screwed. :damn:

and i so wanted to buy this game too. :wah:

jwilliams

02-27-10, 01:25 AM

Software piracy is basically selling a game that doesn't belong to you or putting a torrent download in place, that's piracy, but where does a crack lie?
It is basically a patch, usually only a couple of files, not a whole game and is intended to use with your copy, that could be genuine, or possibly pirated!:hmmm:
A lot of contention here concerning a "crack", it certainly isn't piracy!:03: so what is it?:hmmm:

It is illegal to bypass DRM without software owners permition.

Digital rights management systems have received some international legal backing by implementation of the 1996 WIPO Copyright Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_Treaty) (WCT). Article 11 of the Treaty requires nations party to the treaties to enact laws against DRM circumvention.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

It would be in violation of the EULA, and possibly Copyright infringment.

Reece

02-27-10, 01:52 AM

It is illegal to bypass DRM without software owners permition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

It would be in violation of the EULA, and possibly Copyright infringment.Oh well! That's life!!:03:

Mikkow

02-27-10, 01:57 AM

Illegal to bypass DRM is really a nonsensical law that does not reflect any reality based ethic at all. There's nothing unethical about doing that.

There's plenty of evil things which are legal, and non-evil things which are illegal. Some laws are made because the laws were 'bought' in various forms by those who have significant resources to order laws that strengthen their interests (such as more profits).

Reece

02-27-10, 02:39 AM

Yes and if I remember right UBI used a crack as there own patch on another game!!:DL

adrianebrown

02-27-10, 02:44 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8538963.stm

We have a lot of younger people that come into this bracket or stay in areas that have limited access to wi-fi / broadband.

UBISOFT you need to rethink, even people staying maybe 3 miles outside a city will also have no broadband and are still using dialup because companies will not lay broadband because it is too costly.

I dropped connection 6 times alone in one night this week.

Ragtag

02-27-10, 02:55 AM

Here in Norway there a some laws against DRM. And since Ubisofts new DRM seems to take control of parts on the computer (read "I got it" thread) i think it might be crossing the line. I'm definatly gonna check this out by the official Customers rights department here.

Apple had to pull out the DRM on MP3's here if i remember it correctly. They lost their case in courts here.

Reece

02-27-10, 04:07 AM

I like Norway!!:yeah:

R-T-B

02-27-10, 04:08 AM

Indeed, I like Norway for a lot of reasons. This isn't the only one. They have a very good philosophy on things in my opinion.

The Enigma

02-27-10, 04:46 AM

So, the Ubisoft Cloud DRM is not allowing me to change a setting in MY COMPUTER. They are effectively taking control of that setting on my computer whenver their program is in use.

This is a BIG BIG deal to me, I've actually stopped playing to research this issue further. None of my other programs do this. As you can see from the screenshots, Steam has been running in the background the whole time.

I'm getting what I deserved for not doing more research. At least its supporting SH5 I guess.

UBI hasn't learned from the past.
Again they are modifying your PC without being open about it.

I'm right about not buying SH5.
If you are concerned about privacy, rootkits and not willing to be online while playing the game,
you shouldn't buy this nasty software either.

Again it is up to you, not to UBI to make decisions about what's going on on your PC.

matsterman

02-27-10, 10:39 AM

Just dont buy the game people...its that simple.

I could play the other games from now until the end of time. I am not going to jump through the hoops just to get a few more pieces of eye candy and scripted missions.

A year from now, the game will be w/o this stupid requirement and I will pick it up for 10 or 15 dollars new somewhere.

Unlike alot of you impetuous children who "just have to have it now", I can wait.

It usually take 2-3 months to work out the initial bugs anyway...

Onkel Neal

02-27-10, 02:14 PM

Unlike alot of you impetuous children who "just have to have it now", I can wait.

Come on, now that's not necessary. :shucks:

jtm55

02-27-10, 03:19 PM

Hi All

while not being happy about UBI's DRM scheme, I will purchase SH5 when released. I will tell you why. I'm looking forward to SH6, SH7, SH8, well you get the idea. If SH5 is a flop, UBI may decide that it isn't in their best interest to continue the series.

There isn't a bunch of Developers or Publishers knocking down the door to make SubSims. I feel that even though there are aspects that are disappointing I'm willing to take a leap of Faith if you will, that in the end between UBI & the Great Modders of this Community will make it another Great SubSim

Diopos

02-27-10, 03:40 PM

...
There isn't a bunch of Developers or Publishers knocking down the door to make SubSims. I feel that even though there are aspects that are disappointing I'm willing to take a leap of Faith if you will, that in the end between UBI & the Great Modders of this Community will make it another Great SubSim

Well you can't argue about matters of Faith, can you eh!!! :)

I wish, you know who, had some faith towards its prospective customers though...

Méo

02-27-10, 03:51 PM

Unlike alot of you impetuous children who "just have to have it now", I can wait.

I don't know where you live, but in my country people are free to spend their money on whatever they wish.

Seems like it pisses you off.

Jimbuna

02-27-10, 05:07 PM

I don't know where you live, but in my country people are free to spend their money on whatever they wish.

Seems like it pisses you off.

Each to their own matey....each to their own http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

Sailor Steve

02-28-10, 05:04 PM

I don't know where you live, but in my country people are free to spend their money on whatever they wish.

Seems like it pisses you off.
I like to call this the "I'm right and you're stupid" school of debate. Some people don't realize that no matter how passionate they may be about something, there is a chance they might be wrong.

Reece

02-28-10, 11:05 PM

Hey the thread's open again!!:yeah: Cool, I can carry on beating that dead horse!!:yep:
Well after viewing some of the threads here it looks like SH5 is just a rehash of SH4, complete with the many bugs it had!!:oops: Now add OSP, only type 7 boats, and war end of 43 it certainly isn't worth purchasing IMO, to those who have purchased it, I can only hope they release a decent patch and modders can fix the rest to a state better than SH4, though I doubt it.:hmmm: I think UBI has lost the plot!:-?

theluckyone17

03-01-10, 01:21 AM

That's the part that sucks... I see the bugs, "only type 7 boats, and war end of 43", and I see promise. Something the modders can pick up and do something with. Yeah, it'll take some spit & shining, but I bet they/we can do it. I got faith in 'em.

OSP is the deal breaker for me, though, so it means all that's for naught.

My only hope is to continue to state my position, hope enough subsimmers stand by me, hope AC2 flops badly enough so that Ubi doesn't just assume nobody wants to buy SH5 because it's a sub sim, ad naseum...

... until Neal tells me to shut up. At that point, I'll chalk it up as a lost cause, and go back to SH4. Won't ever buy another Ubisoft product, but hey... think of the money I'll save! :D

KlassenT

03-01-10, 02:35 AM

I haven't chipped my two cents onto this dead horse quite yet, but after a fair bit of research there are still a couple of concerns that I have.

First, taken from the Official Ubisoft OSP FAQ (http://support.uk.ubi.com/online-services-platform/)

What will happen if I lose my Internet connection when I play the game?

If you lose your Internet connection the game will pause while it tries to reconnect. If the Internet connection is unable to resume, the server will have stored your last saved game and you will be able to continue from where you left off once your internet connection is restored.

My problem here is that if the server can CREATE a savegame when you lose connection, it's doing so with data that would not normally be available after losing connectivity. After all, if your ethernet cable pops out of your machine, that's an unpredictable event, so the Ubi servers can't feasibly request the data required to store a savegame. What does this mean, ultimately? Unless I hear otherwise, or I hear that the above statement from the website is incorrect, then you are constantly streaming gameplay data to the Ubi server cloud. Inherently, there's nothing wrong with that; it's not personally identifiable or private information, and it could feasibly be used to help support patch and troubleshooting efforts. But, with that said, I do not have that kind of faith in Ubi's servers. We're talking about every player currently running SH5 streaming a mirrored copy of gameplay logic to the same server cloud-- That alone is enough to shake my faith in a single company's server infrastructure, but then you add in every OTHER game that will be supported with OSP? No chance. I could foresee major server stability issues snowballing with every future OSP release.

Ultimately, it brings me to the last item on the above FAQ:

Why is Ubisoft forcing their loyal customers to sign up for a Ubisoft account when they don't want to give their private data and only play single player games?

We hope that customers will feel as we do, that signing up for an account will offer them exceptional gameplay and services that are not available otherwise.

I find it to be a bit of a catch-22; 'exceptional gameplay' doesn't mean much of anything when a taxed server cloud and even intermittent network downtimes can crush that gameplay experience. I'm ashamed to admit it, Radio Room, but I've been an awfully unfaithful skipper lately. SH3 and 4 have paled in comparison the past few weeks in favor of taking up arms with a few buddies in CoD:Modern Warfare 2. For those of you that don't keep up with FPS games, this latest installment in the Call of Duty franchise uses SteamWorks in a very similar manner to OSP. If you lose connection to the Steam server cloud, then you're booted back to the main menu, greeted only with "Lost connection to Steam." The problem? That happens about once every hour during peak periods. But, that's not the real hell of it... Most of the time when that happens, the connection never got dropped. My buddies and I are able to communicate just fine using Steam Friends. Aaand, let's not forget the times when the servers are down for maintenance. You can have something planned fairly well in advance, everyone meets up, and... "Oh, the servers are down. Well, at least I've got a few hours freed up on my schedule."

Those kind of interruptions are already having me curse both the developer, Infinity Ward, and Valve's entire Steam network up and down. Really, for all the hell I usually give it, I will admit one thing: Valve's Steam Cloud is one of the most robust and successful content delivery networks in the gaming industry, and it's got to have one hell of an infrastructure backing it up. And it still fails. I'd bet dollars to donuts that Ubisoft doesn't have nearly the same resources in place, and I can only see it getting worse and worse as they add more releases onto their proprietary OSP backbone.

---

Lastly, a note to any manner of software developer that might be listening; the only effective rights-management scheme is to offer a fair price for the quality of your product. Anything beyond that should never come at the expense of user experience. Serials are fine, I especially don't have a problem with online serial activation, as long as protocols are in place for offline users, and those wishing to recover a lost installation. But honestly, this is really going too far. There IS no unbreakable copy protection scheme. Ever. Period. At the end of the day, every application boils down to instruction calls to the CPU to add one register to another, copy a memory location, or read something out of the process block. Extremely clever verification functions can be effortlessly rewritten to always return true, entire calls can be omitted or rerouted, and even hardcoded server URIs can be modified within the program declarations. But when you ask "market value" for a product that still needs more than a little extra time at the detailing shop, then protect that same software with DRM that can cripple the user experience you were aiming for in the first place, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that your protection scheme fails-- just as disappointingly as the resulting sales do. :nope:

theluckyone17

03-01-10, 07:25 AM

...What does this mean, ultimately? Unless I hear otherwise, or I hear that the above statement from the website is incorrect, then you are constantly streaming gameplay data to the Ubi server cloud...From what I've heard, this isn't true.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1285162&postcount=12

I'll do some more searching later today, but I remember somebody saying that the constant connection actually used little constant bandwidth, which would imply that it's not constantly sending save game data.

The option to disable online saved games is there, however... one of my beefs is that there's no option to save the game before the OSP kicks you out to the main menu if it senses a disconnect.

Apos

03-01-10, 08:11 AM

http://www.themousetrap.co.za/comics/comics/(2009%2002%2005)%20The%20DRM%20Monster.jpg

IanC

03-01-10, 08:19 AM

Save us Captain Crack Patches!! :haha:

pluskat

03-01-10, 08:53 AM

Just read on the ubi site about a constant connection to
the internet,well that means I wont buy the game,I will buy
it when and if they do an offline version in the future,and my save
games are kept on my own computer,So looks like its back to
Gwx I cant believe they shot themselves in the foot like this,
Ubi may be the natural parent of silent hunter but GWX did
a much better job as an adoptive parent and seems to have
done all the up-bringing

http://silent-hunter.uk.ubi.com/sile...quirements.php (http://silent-hunter.uk.ubi.com/silent-hunter-5/requirements.php)
then look at the bottom left of the page and click on white sticker
links to link below,if I have miss read I will eat my submarine

http://support.uk.ubi.com/online-services-platform/

Letum

03-01-10, 04:47 PM

http://www.themousetrap.co.za/comics/comics/%282009%2002%2005%29%20The%20DRM%20Monster.jpg

Ahh! Too much truth in the humor!

Nordmann

03-01-10, 05:36 PM

Heh, that's a good one, and sadly it's quite true. Ah well, companies will learn in time, and if they don't, we'll be adding another to the growing list of bankruptcies.

Apos

03-01-10, 05:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkTZTzsYoZs

Ducimus

03-01-10, 05:54 PM

http://www.themousetrap.co.za/comics/comics/(2009%2002%2005)%20The%20DRM%20Monster.jpg

Too true. I have never pirated a game before, but with DRM, id feel justified in doing so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkTZTzsYoZs

Hilarious! :haha:

kaptkirkU4467

03-01-10, 06:18 PM

I upgraded the home system b4 I found about the DRM thing..a new nVidia GTS 250/1gig,then got 4 gigs of DDR3...and now it sits..waiting...calling me at night..."Kirk,..Kirk..buy the game"...

So..after seeing the screen shots I must say its hard not to click on"buy it now".
Maybe I was wrong to jump so fast and say "no,not doing it"....I just don't know what to do.:oops:

Onkel Neal

03-01-10, 06:23 PM

Ahh! Too much truth in the humor!

Not quite, missing panel #1 where the pirates start the whole mess.

Elder-Pirate

03-01-10, 06:32 PM

Méo

03-01-10, 06:36 PM

Well UBI sure knows how to get the $$

Seriously, do you really expect SH5 to be a blockbuster.

Nordmann

03-01-10, 06:37 PM

Not quite, missing panel #1 where the pirates start the whole mess.

They may have started it, but the industry didn't have to respond the way they did. At least there's still a few good DRM free games, though sadly they're on the decrease these days.

Piracy is being used as the excuse, but at the heart of it all is one thing, and that is control. With OSP, they control when, where and how you play the game you paid for. Dress it up however you like, dismiss it, but the fact of the matter is this, we are losing the freedoms we once had. It's only going to get worse, if companies like Ubi believe this form of DRM to be successful, we will see it in all future games.

Hell, I wouldn't mind so much, if they paid for my country's internet to be brought into the 21st century! As it is, it's so damned unreliable that a game with a permanent net requirement is a big risk. If they could guarantee my net would not fail, ever, then fine, but otherwise they can get stuffed.

Elder-Pirate

03-01-10, 06:37 PM

Not quite, missing panel #1 where the pirates start the whole mess.

I did not!.................Oh you mean the game pirates. :D

Well, I've been ( shall we say politely? ) accused of this already. :wah:

Heretic

03-01-10, 06:37 PM

Not quite, missing panel #1 where the pirates start the whole mess.

Half of whom will claim they're doing it for noble reasons.

Ducimus

03-01-10, 06:39 PM

Not quite, missing panel #1 where the pirates start the whole mess.

That maybe true, but its no excuse nor reason to treat EVERYONE like a criminal.

Nordmann

03-01-10, 06:40 PM

Half of whom will claim they're doing it for noble reasons.

Yeah, just like the supporters of DRM claim that their support is for a cause. Funny really.

Méo

03-01-10, 06:42 PM

Piracy is being used as the excuse, but at the heart of it all is one thing, and that is control.

Where's the dead horse??

Nordmann

03-01-10, 06:48 PM

Where's the dead horse??

It's not quite dead yet, sadly.

Heretic

03-01-10, 06:48 PM

No dead horses please. This is the anti-drm thread. We need to be nice here if we expect them to be nice in our threads.

Elder-Pirate

03-01-10, 06:55 PM

Seriously, do you really expect SH5 to be a blockbuster.

The games not even officially out yet and UBU's candy store is doing great business.

Heck even I want the game, but from what I've seen so far is the candy has been on the shelf to long and is getting sour.

I'll wait till' they add more sugar to it and poison OSP/DRM. :arrgh!:

Wonder if I'll live that long? :doh:

Meantime heave-ho SHIV, on the other ocean, more Japanese ships to sink.:up:

Lt.Harper

03-02-10, 03:34 AM

jwilliams

03-02-10, 03:39 AM

Here's what will happen:

1) SHV is cracked and on pirate bay about a week after release
2) Due to people boycotting the DRM, SHV does not sell very well
3) Ubisoft will blame pirating as the reason why the game did not sell well
4) SHVI will have an even more insane DRM scheme.

A viscous cycle ... :cry:

Unless SH5 doesnt get cracked. (unlikely)

But if SH5 doesnt get crack then OSP will be here to stay.:nope:

Which would prob mean no patch to remove OSP from SH5, as this patch could open up OSP to being cracked.

Schunken

03-02-10, 03:40 AM

...I think its really not sell too well... Amazon.de show it on place 47, just make it into top 50.

Maybe it will catch up on release day, but I be in doubt.

Andreas

SubV

03-02-10, 04:16 AM

Online DRM will kill the modding community, that's for sure.

Like many other people here I'll probably buy it later, when it hits the bargain bin...

Herr Graf

03-02-10, 04:26 AM

Posting in a +100 DRM thread!

:rock:

Letum

03-02-10, 05:49 AM

OK...thinking hats on people!
Iv'e framed this argument in a snappy single paragraph before, but here
is the full version:

Not quite, missing panel #1 where the pirates start the whole mess.

There are many, many bad things that can be blamed upon software
pirates. I do not want to appear to defend them from the things that they
are rightly to blame for.

That said, it really does not make good sense to blame pirates for poor
and increasingly invasive DRM systems.

From my understanding, your argument runs like this:

Premise 1) Piracy causes the need for more intrusive DRM systems.
Premise 2) If you cause the need for something, then you are to blame for it.
Conclusion: Therefore, piracy is to blame for more intrusive DRM systems.

On the face of it, that looks like a good argument.

Premise 1 is clearly true because if there was no piracy, there would be no DRM.
Premise 2 looks like it is true, so we will accept that.
And the conclusion defiantly follows from the premises.

However, this kind of argument can cause absurdities in more than one
way. I'm only going to look at the first way absurdity can arise, because
the second way is a little more complex and I don't want to get to bogged
down too much.

The first way is that it can be used for things like this:

Premise 1) Merchant shipping causes the need for submarine warfare
against merchant shipping.
Premise 2) If you cause the need for something, then you are to blame for it.
Conclusion: Therefore, merchant shipping is to blame for more submarine
warfare against merchant shipping.

Again, Premise 1 is clearly true because if there was no merchant shipping,
there would be no submarine warfare against merchant shipping.
Premise 2 looks like it is true, so we will accept that.
And the conclusion defiantly follows from the premises.

However, in this case the conclusion is ridiculous.

How can that be if the form of the argument is the same as in the piracy
argument and the premises both appear to be true? We must have gone
wrong somewhere, but where? To find out we will have to look at all the
aspects of the argument carefully.

Could it be that the very form the argument takes is faulty?
Well, the argument takes the form:
Premise 1) X causes the need for Y
Premise 2) If you cause the need for something, then you are to blame for it.
Conclusion: Therefore, X is to blame for YI think it is clear that the form of your argument is perfectly sound.
As long as premise 1&2 are both true, the conclusion is defiantly also true.

It must be either premise 1 or 2 that are at fault.

So what about premise 1 from the piracy argument; is that true?
Premise 1) Piracy causes the need for more intrusive DRM systems.That's not strictly true for two reasons, but neither of these reasons are
utterly insurmountable.
The two problems are as follows:1) The first problem with premise 1 is
that it's not clear that piracy causes a need for intrusive DRM systems. It
no doubt causes a desire for DRM systems, but is that desire a "need"?
Having a "need" is when you have no other option and it's clear that
games companies have at least one other option; they could go out of
business. It could also be argued that there are other options that don't
include going out of business OR invasive DRM.

Perhaps we should change the argument to:
Premise 1) Piracy causes the desire for more intrusive DRM systems.
Premise 2) If you cause the desire for something, then you are to blame for it.That has a bit less of a kick to it.

That said, going out of business is not much of an option(!) and even if
there are other options, other than invasive DRM open to games
companies, that isn't certain.

So even tho I think that even if the word "need" isn't strictly true, I don't
think it's outrageous. Arguments could be made for and against it, but I'm
willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it as it is.

2) The second problem with premise 1 is that it's not clear that piracy does
cause the need for intrusive DRM systems because although all companies
suffer from piracy, not all of them have intrusive DRM systems.

Then again, maybe those companies that don't have intrusive DRM
systems are all about to go out of business because they do need it, they
just don't know it yet.

I'm sure you will agree that good arguments could be made one way and
the other. I might argue one way, your self and ubisoft might argue
another way.

Again, in this case also, I can benefit of the doubt and assume that piracy
does indeed cause the need for intrusive DRM systems.

Premise 1 from the Merchant shipping argument faces similar problems.
It could be argued that there are other options open to win a war than
submarine warfare against merchant shipping (i.e. just loose the war).
It could also be argued that you don't need to use submarine warfare
against merchant shipping to win a war.
I think it only fair that if we are giving the piracy argument the benefit of
the doubt over these issues, we should also be giving the same
allowances to similar arguments.

In conclusion, although premise 1 is, in both cases, is not problem free, the
problems are not utterly insurmountable. Good arguments can be made
both ways.

We are left with the only one other option to explain how this kind of
argument can produce ridiculous conclusions: there must be something
wrong with premise 2.

Premise 2) If you cause the need for something, then you are to blame for it.All arguments that use this premise can be shown to produce similar
arguments that have ridiculous conclusions. It can not be an ethical rule
because it lacks universality. We can't just say that premise 2 becomes
true when it is used in this argument, but premise 2 becomes false when it
is used in another argument. The truth of any premise can't change like
that. It must be wrong and therefore, arguments that use it must also be
unsound, even if the form of the argument is valid.

IanC

03-02-10, 06:49 AM

OK...thinking hats on people!
Iv'e framed this argument in a snappy single paragraph before, but here
is the full version:

There are many, many bad things that can be blamed upon software
pirates. I do not want to appear to defend them from the things that they
are rightly to blame for.

That said, it really does not make good sense to blame pirates for poor
and increasingly invasive DRM systems.

From my understanding, your argument runs like this:

Premise 1) Piracy causes the need for more intrusive DRM systems.
Premise 2) If you cause the need for something, then you are to blame for it.
Conclusion: Therefore, piracy is to blame for more intrusive DRM systems.

On the face of it, that looks like a good argument.

Premise 1 is clearly true because if there was no piracy, there would be no DRM.
Premise 2 looks like it is true, so we will accept that.
And the conclusion defiantly follows from the premises.

However, this kind of argument can cause absurdities in more than one
way. I'm only going to look at the first way absurdity can arise, because
the second way is a little more complex and I don't want to get to bogged
down too much.

The first way is that it can be used for things like this:

Premise 1) Merchant shipping causes the need for submarine warfare
against merchant shipping.
Premise 2) If you cause the need for something, then you are to blame for it.
Conclusion: Therefore, merchant shipping is to blame for more submarine
warfare against merchant shipping.

Again, Premise 1 is clearly true because if there was no merchant shipping,
there would be no submarine warfare against merchant shipping.
Premise 2 looks like it is true, so we will accept that.
And the conclusion defiantly follows from the premises.

However, in this case the conclusion is ridiculous.

How can that be if the form of the argument is the same as in the piracy
argument and the premises both appear to be true? We must have gone
wrong somewhere, but where? To find out we will have to look at all the
aspects of the argument carefully.

Could it be that the very form the argument takes is faulty?
Well, the argument takes the form:
I think it is clear that the form of your argument is perfectly sound.
As long as premise 1&2 are both true, the conclusion is defiantly also true.

It must be either premise 1 or 2 that are at fault.

So what about premise 1 from the piracy argument; is that true?
That's not strictly true for two reasons, but neither of these reasons are
utterly insurmountable.
The two problems are as follows:1) The first problem with premise 1 is
that it's not clear that piracy causes a need for intrusive DRM systems. It
no doubt causes a desire for DRM systems, but is that desire a "need"?
Having a "need" is when you have no other option and it's clear that
games companies have at least one other option; they could go out of
business. It could also be argued that there are other options that don't
include going out of business OR invasive DRM.

Perhaps we should change the argument to:
That has a bit less of a kick to it.

That said, going out of business is not much of an option(!) and even if
there are other options, other than invasive DRM open to games
companies, that isn't certain.

So even tho I think that even if the word "need" isn't strictly true, I don't
think it's outrageous. Arguments could be made for and against it, but I'm
willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it as it is.

2) The second problem with premise 1 is that it's not clear that piracy does
cause the need for intrusive DRM systems because although all companies
suffer from piracy, not all of them have intrusive DRM systems.

Then again, maybe those companies that don't have intrusive DRM
systems are all about to go out of business because they do need it, they
just don't know it yet.

I'm sure you will agree that good arguments could be made one way and
the other. I might argue one way, your self and ubisoft might argue
another way.

Again, in this case also, I can benefit of the doubt and assume that piracy
does indeed cause the need for intrusive DRM systems.

Premise 1 from the Merchant shipping argument faces similar problems.
It could be argued that there are other options open to win a war than
submarine warfare against merchant shipping (i.e. just loose the war).
It could also be argued that you don't need to use submarine warfare
against merchant shipping to win a war.
I think it only fair that if we are giving the piracy argument the benefit of
the doubt over these issues, we should also be giving the same
allowances to similar arguments.

In conclusion, although premise 1 is, in both cases, is not problem free, the
problems are not utterly insurmountable. Good arguments can be made
both ways.

We are left with the only one other option to explain how this kind of
argument can produce ridiculous conclusions: there must be something
wrong with premise 2.

All arguments that use this premise can be shown to produce similar
arguments that have ridiculous conclusions. It can not be an ethical rule
because it lacks universality. We can't just say that premise 2 becomes
true when it is used in this argument, but premise 2 becomes false when it
is used in another argument. The truth of any premise can't change like
that. It must be wrong and therefore, arguments that use it must also be
unsound, even if the form of the argument is valid.

My cat's name is mittens!

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3645/35572240.jpg

Arclight

03-02-10, 07:33 AM

:haha: :har:

*cough*
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/500x_sadhomer_S.jpg

* Sorry Letum, you kinda lost me when you started comparing it to merchant shipping and submarine response. :doh:

KL-alfman

03-02-10, 07:39 AM

My cat's name is mittens!

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3645/35572240.jpg

there's another one:

"yes, Lisa, your daddy is gonna be a teacher ...."

theluckyone17

03-02-10, 07:59 AM

Galactic Civilizations 2 has no DRM. The producer, Stardock, doesn't believe in it. It does require a serial number to allow downloading of patches, however. Oddly enough, Gamasutra said it topped PC sales for a week in February of 2009: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22404

Stardock also put out Sins of a Solar Empire... without DRM. It apparently did fine in its first month of sales: http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/sins_of_a_solar_empire/

I don't know how much of a niche the RTS-4x genre occupies, but I'd wonder if it's comparable to that of a certain submarine simulator series...

Reece

03-02-10, 09:05 AM

michaelws

03-02-10, 10:44 AM

What is OSP?

GDFTigerTank

03-02-10, 10:49 AM

What is OSP?

Oppressive Sh** Pile :down:

And yes I jumped right in and bought the game anyway. :up:

razark

03-02-10, 11:07 AM

What is OSP?

Just read every post in this thread in detail. There's only 1673 before yours.

OSP is Online Services Platform. It's Ubi's little thing to "enhance" your experience.

Part of OSP is DRM. The rest of OSP doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Most people are unhappy about the DRM scheme, which requires you to be online and logged in to Ubi's server while playing. Another part of OSP that worries some people is automatic updates, which could make modding a problematic issue.

michaelws

03-02-10, 12:39 PM

I read more posts on this thread than any other, ever...I was assuming OSP was more specific than just referring to a system requiring online connections. Thanks. And thanks for not making me out to be more of an idiot than I am.

I have also posted to this thread a few times...in support of NOT buying version V.

I have all previous versions...starting from the first...and have enjoyed them all. This development is a big disappointment...but in reading the limited scenario offered within the game itself I am not sure the scope would be as immersible as the earlier ones...unless it can be modded to broaden the scope.

Thanks for the replies.

Sailor Steve

03-02-10, 12:56 PM

IAnd thanks for not making me out to be more of an idiot than I am.
Brother, you're not alone. I hate to think of all the times I've shaken my head at 'idiots' doing something I think is stupid, and the next day, guess what? MY TURN!

Where I live people always say "Utah drivers are the worst in the world!" I always reply "Don't forget - you are one."

My personal best: "Some people are born stupid. I've had to work hard my whole life to get this way. And I'm proud of the job I've done.":sunny:

michaelws

03-02-10, 01:21 PM

Thanks...had a good laugh on that one.

Fantasm

03-02-10, 03:56 PM

frau kaleun

03-02-10, 04:00 PM

My cat's name is mittens!

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3645/35572240.jpg

:har: :rotfl2:

Ducimus

03-02-10, 04:18 PM

Well, I just read the instructions for installing one of the cracked versions of Assassins Creed 2 that are already out. Essentially, it allows a Ubisoft account, then they simply do a redirect to a different server.
The only thing it doesn't allow is a saved game but they expect to have that solved soon... It also looks like it would be the same or similar to bypass the DRM for SH5.
I am not going to post the hows's and why's but it definately looks like they've bypassed DRM already. No, I didn't d/l to test it.... but those who know where to look will have no problem finding a Pirate with it.

As much as i cringe to say it, i hope the pirates pull it off. Maybe then Ubi will wake up from this fantasy their having, and stop wasting everyones bandwidth.

Bilge_Rat

03-02-10, 04:21 PM

My cat's name is mittens!

IanC, classic....:up:

Nordmann

03-02-10, 04:46 PM

*Snip*

While you may have lost a few people here (shame on them), I personally understood and agree with your point. It's funny how the law abiding PC gamer is ultimately blamed for intrusive DRM, when in actuality, we are the ones propping up their damned companies! Without us, they would be out of business. That being said, I can understand the desire to protect their software, but no amount of protection will ever stop piracy. There are always ways and means round the systems used, and they will be found, no matter how hard you attempt to stop them, no matter how secure you attempt to make your product.

It is unfortunate, but the only people punished for piracy, are those whom legally purchase the game. Surely this is illogical? Surely the assumption that all gamers are pirates is also illogical, but this appears to be the premise many companies are now working with. Not only is it wrong, it's also damned insulting. I have purchased each and every single game I own, the cost of which must run into thousands, yet I am to blame for intrusive protection policies? How do they come to that conclusion? Yet this is exactly what Ubisoft appear to be doing.

None of us can be trusted to legally purchase their game, and as such, we must prove time and time again that we are operating a legal copy. Well, sorry Ubisoft, but I'm not showing you my receipt each and every time I wish to play a game, not happening. To add insult to injury, the game is a full £10 more than I paid for SH4 brand new! So not only do we get lumped with their DRM, we have to pay for it as well! Incredible!

Sailor Steve

03-02-10, 04:55 PM

To add insult to injury, the game is a full £10 more than I paid for SH4 brand new! So not only do we get lumped with their DRM, we have to pay for it as well! Incredible!
And you're getting less and less for your money:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162878

Nordmann

03-02-10, 04:57 PM

And you're getting less and less for your money:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162878

Yes, I saw that, damned cheek. The price is bad enough, but to leave out the paper manual, bloody cheap buggers!

Jimbuna

03-02-10, 05:18 PM

Yes, I saw that, damned cheek. The price is bad enough, but to leave out the paper manual, bloody cheap buggers!

Oh that's coming in the mail :DL

Elder-Pirate

03-02-10, 06:01 PM

Yes, I saw that, damned cheek. The price is bad enough, but to leave out the paper manual, bloody cheap buggers!

But they spent that money on new servers. :haha:

lhodaniel

03-02-10, 07:56 PM

I have every SH version made to date and would be ordering SH5 today if not for this ridiculous online DRM crap. Ubi, you have lost a loyal customer. Since Ubi punishes legitimate customers over the pirates, I frankly hope that the DRM is cracked and that NOBODY buys the thing. If you want to ban me for saying that, go for it. One less bookmark in the browser...:damn:

mikeydredd

03-02-10, 10:00 PM

I'm still sticking to my guns and not BUYING this game.

I'm afraid I do agree with Ducimus on this. It looks like it is only a matter of time before this is cracked and available with no intrusive DRM. No surprises there!

Where does this leave legitimate customers who do not have the required internet connection to play?

And who will not be part of this propagandised big brother data mining bull**** that is passed off as some sort of massive step forward in the ongoing war against the pirates?

Recently I spoke to a mate who knows nothing of computers, gaming and all this stuff. I fully explained to him everything about the latest from UBIsoft and its new DRM etc etc.

His comment to me was,

"Surely that will lead to more piracy"!!!!!!!

True storey.

If he can see that are you honestly suggesting the honchos at UBI can't?

They deserve everything they get. or in my case don't.

Have a nice day.

Dredd out :arrgh!:

janh

03-02-10, 10:24 PM

Now actually when talking about the connection of piracy and DRM, the question that comes to my mind is:

WHY is no one actually looking into the cause of piracy and fixing the root of the problem, but doctoring away at some symptom? It is probably not to hard to guess that solving a symptom will only lead to a new symptom -- until the root cause is resolved.

Now why, if pirating is possible (and reminds me of the aircraft anti-aircraft arms race -- one year the plane wins, another year the AAM), why is it actually a problem? Because according to many companies [needs reliable citation here], way too many people make use of it and, thus, companies loose a huge volume of sales [needs another reliable citation here].

Now shouldn't the question then be: Why are so many customers dishonest and don't want to pay for products? And how can the purchase moral be recovered?

Let me formulate a hypothesis: One answer to the latter question could be: By providing customer-oriented high-value products and extended support to include their wishes and suggestions beyond the purchase date. By making the customer feel valued and showing him that "being honest" is rewarded by and added-value to his product. (OSP DRM doesn't sound like this, does it? But patching & adding things according to customer wishes would be...)

I don't care if SHV is hacked or not. If I would want it, I would buy it to get the manual and everything with it (a nice, thick manual with a history section, a nice Kriegsmarine Seekarte etc. would be awesome "added-value" to this product for me -- like in good old DOS game times!). But I hope to see a clear dent in overall PC game sales in their quarterly report. Because stock prices are even less forgiving than customers refraining from buying the game... It is time for a trend inversion with DRM, and for companies to turn back to listening to customers -- and that not only with a half-deaf ear...

jwilliams

03-02-10, 10:40 PM

I don't care if SHV is hacked or not. If I would want it, I would buy it to get the manual and everything with it (a nice, thick manual with a history section, a nice Kriegsmarine Seekarte etc. would be awesome "added-value" to this product for me -- like in good old DOS game times!).

LOL, what manual, all you get is two pieces of paper (install inst. & Warr.) and the Disks.

Manual is in PDF format on disk.

Guess the money saved on not printing manuals and maps etc. is paying for the OSP (DRM).

Reece

03-02-10, 11:18 PM

Frankly after reviewing the bug list, I don't care for the game any more,:doh: it is just like SH4 when it was released,maybe even worse, plus it is more to the arcade style of gaming! add this to being stuck with OSP DRM .... will give it a miss. Sadly UBI is going backwards with quality, they've lost the plot!:cry::nope:

FIREWALL

03-02-10, 11:24 PM

Hey Guys ... They give you a direct link to Kinko's to print that manual.

For a price. Ubisoft doesn't miss a trick.

admobadmo

03-02-10, 11:28 PM

...I think its really not sell too well... Amazon.de show it on place 47, just make it into top 50.

Maybe it will catch up on release day, but I be in doubt.

Andreas

I just checked, release day, and it's now at #142. So if it was in the top 50 ealier, it seems to be dropping fast.

edit: I just noticed, you're not even in the same country as I am! Doh! Anyway, it's at #142 in the US.

2nd edit: to put it in a little perspective, Halo 3 is at #83, 1115 days in the top 100. Maybe they should have made a version of Silent Hunter 5 for X-Box? That would be fun, wouldn't it? Guys? X-Box? With me on this one? Anyone?

Reece

03-03-10, 12:09 AM

At least it wouldn't have OSP!!:yep: If you have X-Box, do the games have as many bugs as SH5 on PC? If not, why can't they do a better job beta testing for PC games?:hmmm:

Reece

03-03-10, 12:12 AM

Hey Guys ... They give you a direct link to Kinko's to print that manual.

For a price. Ubisoft doesn't miss a trick.Ridiculous isn't it! the game is full of bugs worse than SH4, no manuals, maps etc, on top of that you have to put up with OSP! and it costs more!!:down:

admobadmo

03-03-10, 12:30 AM

I don't actually have an X-Box myself. But I do have an X-Box controller for Windows for the occassional console port. The two that come to mind that I've used it for are Grand Theft Auto IV and the latest Tomb Raider. Both quite similar to SH5, really. A "murder simulator" and, uh, an "exploration simulator".:D Yeah, that's it. There's even underwater parts in Tomb Raider!

JScones

03-03-10, 01:50 AM

Well, I just read the instructions for installing one of the cracked versions of Assassins Creed 2 that are already out. Essentially, it allows a Ubisoft account, then they simply do a redirect to a different server.
The only thing it doesn't allow is a saved game but they expect to have that solved soon... It also looks like it would be the same or similar to bypass the DRM for SH5.
I am not going to post the hows's and why's but it definately looks like they've bypassed DRM already. No, I didn't d/l to test it.... but those who know where to look will have no problem finding a Pirate with it.
Yep, didn't take long, did it? "Working" cracks for AC2 are popping up everywhere now. Who'da thunk it?

Seems like the perverbial sledgehammer that Ubisoft has chosen to use on the walnut is indeed made of plastic, serving only to annoy the honest buyers who are now stuck with it.

Will Ubisoft concede defeat? Or will they press on with even more draconian measures, thus showing their true intention of stopping game resale?

jwilliams

03-03-10, 02:09 AM

LOL

yep plenty of Cracks for AC2 out there.

Looks like Ubi's OSP is Fail.

Wonder how long now til Ubi remove OSP from SH5.

Even if they do... I dont think I wnat SH5 now....
Wow ubi should be ashamed of the unfinished state of it.

Arclight

03-03-10, 07:22 AM

Ridiculous isn't it! the game is full of bugs worse than SH4, no manuals, maps etc, on top of that you have to put up with OSP! and it costs more!!:down:
Can't comment on bugs yet (installing), but I did get a manual. :yep:

Shame there's no map, but they had to save something for the special edition. :hmmm:

Oh, and I paid the same as for SH4.

Can't say I have any issues with OSP, but I definitely don't agree with the concept.

Steeltrap

03-03-10, 07:39 AM

Can't say I have any issues with OSP, but I definitely don't agree with the concept.

If you were prepared to buy it then you clearly DON'T disagree with the concept to the extent it matters, or that you're prepared to take a stand on it.

Not wishing to sound like a hardarse on this, but those who buy it are tacitly approving of OSP, at least in Ubi's eyes, and that's really all that matters.

Reece

03-03-10, 07:53 AM

Can't comment on bugs yet (installing), but I did get a manual. :yep:

Shame there's no map, but they had to save something for the special edition. :hmmm:

Oh, and I paid the same as for SH4.

Can't say I have any issues with OSP, but I definitely don't agree with the concept.Seems most others had to pay $10 more than SH4 and only have a disk, manual in PDF format only! Different country I suppose!:hmmm:

609_Avatar

03-03-10, 07:55 AM

Yep, didn't take long, did it? "Working" cracks for AC2 are popping up everywhere now. Who'da thunk it?

Wow :o, I must be very ignorant as there are only 2 sites that I've ever gone to in order to fix my bought game issues in the past and there's still no mention of that stuff there so I'll have to take your word for it (not implying that I don't believe you either!). I actually thought it would take a little longer this time around for them to get around this but obviously I was wrong on that one too.

I'm not optimistic that Ubi will change their policy in any way though as I never believed pirating was their main reason for doing this. Time will tell if I"m wrong on that one, too.

609_Avatar

03-03-10, 07:58 AM

Arclight

03-03-10, 08:19 AM

If you were prepared to buy it then you clearly DON'T disagree with the concept to the extent it matters, or that you're prepared to take a stand on it.

Not wishing to sound like a hardarse on this, but those who buy it are tacitly approving of OSP, at least in Ubi's eyes, and that's really all that matters.
Can't say that I agree. I recognize it's unfair against people who don't have a (stable) connection, and that I certainly don't agree with.

However, it does not affect me personally, so there's really no reason, apart from taking a stance against it, to not buy it.

You don't have to agree with something to be a part of it.

Yes, I'm playing SH5, but at the same time I'm taking every oppurtunity I have to tell Ubi I don't agree with OSP... :hmmm: apart from not buying a game, I'll give you that. :rotfl2:

Seriously, there are more ways to reason with someone than withholding food. (which in this case doesn't even work, they've got money to spare. At best it will lead to cancelation of SH)

Yak

03-03-10, 08:26 AM

I just checked, release day, and it's now at #142. So if it was in the top 50 ealier, it seems to be dropping fast.

edit: I just noticed, you're not even in the same country as I am! Doh! Anyway, it's at #142 in the US.

2nd edit: to put it in a little perspective, Halo 3 is at #83, 1115 days in the top 100. Maybe they should have made a version of Silent Hunter 5 for X-Box? That would be fun, wouldn't it? Guys? X-Box? With me on this one? Anyone?

Actually the silent hunter series could port very easily to console with minimal issues, and to be honest I'm truly surprised it hasn't happened already.

The actual controls you manipulate are minimal, and can you imagine playing it on a 50" plasma?
Fark yeah! :up:

And to put the amazon ranking into comparison, SH2 which was a bug riddles piece of shyte, was number one for weeks, and in the top five for months.

You don't have to agree with something to be a part of it.

Yeah, just like the nazi's...

punisher2010

03-03-10, 08:37 AM

Can't say that I agree. I recognize it's unfair against people who don't have a (stable) connection, and that I certainly don't agree with.

However, it does not affect me personally, so there's really no reason, apart from taking a stance against it, to not buy it.

You don't have to agree with something to be a part of it.

Yes, I'm playing SH5, but at the same time I'm taking every oppurtunity I have to tell Ubi I don't agree with OSP... :hmmm: apart from not buying a game, I'll give you that. :rotfl2:

Seriously, there are more ways to reason with someone than withholding food. (which in this case doesn't even work, they've got money to spare. At best it will lead to cancelation of SH)

The problem with this method is that the ONLY way to make a difference is to speak with your wallet.....
By telling Ubi you don't like the DRM and buying it anyway, you are saying, "well, I don't like it, but I'll buy it/put up with it anyway" This will lead them to say, ok, it's not popular, but people buy it anyway.. Let's keep going...

Also, the "it doesn't affect me" thing is wrong in so many ways.... If you don't want to support the people who it does affect, that's fine, but this kind of attitude will eventually come back to bite you when, by the time it does affect you, there may not be anyone left to help you.....

mikeydredd

03-03-10, 08:58 AM

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with Arclight and his assertion that "You don't have to agree with something to be a part of it."

That is the whole point - if you agree with something you inevitably ARE part of it. If you don't agree then you are not.

By buying into UBIsoft's control freak abomination you have become a supporter of it. You have paid good money to be part of it for god's sake!!!

In this country we have a phrase that aptly sums up the attitude that you, and many like you, have.

We call it the "jack attitude".

As in "I'm alright Jack".

Potentially I'm also "alright jack". There is no reason for me not to have this game on my hard drive even as we speak. But I never will while it has this level of control freakery attached to it.

That is and will always be my attitude.

Dredd out :arrgh!:

Arclight

03-03-10, 09:25 AM

The problem with this method is that the ONLY way to make a difference is to speak with your wallet.....
By telling Ubi you don't like the DRM and buying it anyway, you are saying, "well, I don't like it, but I'll buy it/put up with it anyway" This will lead them to say, ok, it's not popular, but people buy it anyway.. Let's keep going...

Also, the "it doesn't affect me" thing is wrong in so many ways.... If you don't want to support the people who it does affect, that's fine, but this kind of attitude will eventually come back to bite you when, by the time it does affect you, there may not be anyone left to help you.....
Fair enough, I'm sure it will. :lol:

But let's see how far they take it first. It may be patched out as sales decline, or at the final patch. Iirc someone from Ubi already stated as much, including that it will be patched out should they ever decide to take down the servers.

Yes, it affects me, but there is still hope it won't affect me in any significant negative way. At least it hasn't yet.

* And if by voicing my dissatisfaction of OSP I'm not supporting the people it does affect, I don't see how I can. Again, there's more than 1 way to get a point across.

Personally what I can't stand is limited installs. I've always refused to buy games that are crippled with it, single exception for DCS Blackshark. OSP seems peanuts compared to that, but that may be just me. :hmmm:

That is the whole point - if you agree with something you inevitably ARE part of it. If you don't agree then you are not.
Point is I disagree with the principal of OSP, but I won't let a SH slip by.

Just because I buy SH5, doesn't mean I'm pro-OSP.

609_Avatar

03-03-10, 10:24 AM

But let's see how far they take it first. It may be patched out as sales decline, or at the final patch. Iirc someone from Ubi already stated as much, including that it will be patched out should they ever decide to take down the servers.

Actually, they never did actually say that despite being asked specifically about that. They gave a lame answer like (I'm paraphrasing here as I don't have time to search but feel free as the links are here on this site, maybe even in this thread) "Don't worry, we're you're friends". They never said "yes, we will issue a patch".

609_Avatar

03-03-10, 10:28 AM

Just because I buy SH5, doesn't mean I'm pro-OSP.

No one is saying you are pro-OSP but as far as UBI is concerned you are, or at least don't care enough to show with your wallet that you are not and that's all they care about, making money. So inadvertently, you are supporting it through your actions, not your words. That's the point people are trying to get across to you here. You don't have to agree with it but that's how the bean counters look at it.

michaelws

03-03-10, 10:48 AM

Sadly I agree. I can understand the desire to play the new version...I don't think anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time feels differently...but, UBI has proven they ONLY listen to the sound of money.

So the wallet is what speaks.

Letum

03-03-10, 11:20 AM

I personally understood and agree with your point.

Woopie! I'm not insane.

Wulfmann

03-03-10, 11:25 AM

I intend on legally purchasing SH5 when I can buy it without DRM and without having to connect to the internet (My game PC is not online at all) and the bugs have been fixed.

So it looks doubtful if UBI will get more of my money with this release.

Was DRM supposed to keep loyal customers from buying this???
That does not make sense but that is the end result for many.

Hmmmmmm, pirates will hack this and play it anyway but many loyal paying customers will not.
Sounds like Al Gore logic and fuzzy math:rotfl2: (Considering this is the coldest winter I have experienced in Florida it seems appropriate to make the comparison in lack of logic)

Wulfmann

urfisch

03-03-10, 11:41 AM

Thought this might be interesting for all of us, as we had emotional discussions about that topic.

As to recent posts in different forums...the DRM version of Assassins Creed II (which is the same as in SH5) has been worked around with a simple, hand made server emulator. I read about this many posts and it seems to be 95% sure.

If this happened, UBIs new DRM was unlocked before the official release of the first game, which was fitted with the system.

:nope:

Now i wonder, what the company will do. As we, the honest customers are forced to let them have permanent connection to our PC. And as many posts showed, many people feel unhappy about this. Now lets see, how ubi reacts.

:know:

reaper7

03-03-10, 11:45 AM

It was bound to happen. DRM is the least of my worries. The dumding down of controls and Interface worry me more. Hopefully these issues are rectifed by upadates or modding. :up:

Onkel Neal

03-03-10, 11:47 AM

Urfisch, we have a thread for DRM, here it is, mate. :salute:

I'm sure there will be many stories and rumors about breaking this DRM. Many will be untrue, just created to make things ugly. If this does happen, we will all hear about it, I'm sure.

Also, a friendly warning, be careful about downloading stuff... could be very risky.

Darkreaver1980

03-03-10, 11:47 AM

As to recent posts in different forums...the DRM version of Assassins Creed II (which is the same as in SH5) has been worked around with a simple, hand made server emulator. I read about this many posts and it seems to be 95% sure.

lol

"simple, hand made server emulator"

yeah right, you cant save your game at all and you need 2 computers + you have alot of problems. Very simple!

This copy protection is virtualy not bypassable

Im glad that i buyed SH 5, its fun to watch all the crybabys because they cant just download & play it like most games

gamingdave

03-03-10, 11:50 AM

The server workaround will work, it will get better in the following days. The save file will be more of a challenge, but I expect it will be solved very soon.

Ubi have said themselves that they could release a patch to remove it if for any reason they needed too (possible scenario is they want to switch all the servers off). To think someone else wont figure out and release this patch is simply IMO daft.

Looking forward to buying it tonight though and playing it on the 106" projector :DL its what my new gaming PC has been waiting for!

Arclight

03-03-10, 11:59 AM

No one is saying you are pro-OSP but as far as UBI is concerned you are, or at least don't care enough to show with your wallet that you are not and that's all they care about, making money. So inadvertently, you are supporting it through your actions, not your words. That's the point people are trying to get across to you here. You don't have to agree with it but that's how the bean counters look at it.
Yeah, matter of perspective... I get it.

Point I was trying to make is that 'accepting' and 'agreeing' are different things. I accept the thing being there, but I don't agree with the principal behind it. I accept it because it doesn't pose a problem to me (for the time being), but at the same time imo it should be removed.

Anyway, if anyone wants to make a stance that's fine, but don't go lashing out against people who think differently. Stating that people buying the game are 'unsupportive' or such nonsense is pretty close to a personal attack as far as I'm concerned.

Noone is going to convince anyone else, so I'll drop this here. Carry on. :salute:

reaper7

03-03-10, 12:16 PM

The server workaround will work, it will get better in the following days. The save file will be more of a challenge, but I expect it will be solved very soon.!

Intersesting that would mean if you installed your copy of SH5 to many PC's connected to a server running the workaround, that all clients could run SH5 together. That would be great for any LAN made wolfpack games.

If so this could backfire on Ubisoft forcing this DRM on loyale customers. Seeing as there allowing multiple copies to be installed on PC's.

wetwarev7

03-03-10, 01:17 PM

My biggest concern is that I have no guarantee that I can still play the game if the company goes belly up or otherwise decides the expense of maintaining all those servers eats up too much profit.

Oh sure, they say they would patch it in these situations, but what is a non written assurance to a company? It's standard practice to make customers agree to a written EULA before installation, but they won't give us a written guarantee we can still play a year from now? AND they have a written statement they could pull the plug on the whole thing with 30 days notice at their whim?

No way. I've dealt with companies, and well-meaning ones at that, long enough to know that if it isn't written down as an agreement, it's not worth crap.

How's this for a possible scenario:
Company is sad to announce that keeping the authentication servers online is just too expensive, and will require every one who wishes to continue playing their favorite game to now subscribe to a monthly fee.....

It can happen, and it's no less likely than Ubi releasing a patch removing the online requirement if they went broke or the company changed hands, or there was an earthquake destroying company assets, or any number of other things that can and do happen to companies every day.

I tell ya, I'd have been much more agreeable to the whole thing if they had required a paid subscription, because at least they would have an incentive to keep the servers going.

Frankly it saddens me to not have SH5, I was really looking forward to it, but sometimes you just gotta stand up and say THAT AINT RIGHT!

roman2440

03-03-10, 01:17 PM

So I picked up the game yesterday and decided to do some DRM testing to see what really happens in game.

1) Yes without internet access you cannot launch the game, the launcher denies you before the game even starts

2) The game syncs the save game files upon launch and upon exit of the game, this is done not through the game itself but the launcher utility.

3) It does not dump you out of the game if you lose internet mid-game. In fact it continues as normal. I tested this by unplugging the ethernet cable mid-patrol. I played for another 20 minutes without internet access fine and saved my game after that point (which I have to assume were locally stored because I had no internet access at the time).

3) If you do have such save games (that took place without internet access), it'll upload them to the server automatically when you re-launch the game (assuming you now have internet access, if you don't you won't be able to launch the game anyways). I was able to load my saved game and continue off where right from where I saved the game.

The short end of this story is that the DRM does not inconvenience you mid-game. I can understand issues with not being able to launch a game without internet access, but that's nothing new and I can handle that level of annoyance. I have real problems with a game interfering with your game play after a game starts though, which it turns out SHV doesn't do, so this is great news.