View Full Version : The gawd-almighty merged DRM in Silent Hunter V thread
Arclight
02-15-10, 09:03 PM
:D
That nickname might stick... with a little help. :rotfl2:
Seaman_Hornsby
02-15-10, 09:18 PM
Hmmm....Sailor Stewie?
http://www.computermind.info/myspace/stewie-sailor.gif
http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/images//8/83/StewieCaptain.jpg
:DL
3DDevil
02-15-10, 09:23 PM
Well after consideration.... I have cancelled my pre-order of SH5 with the supplier :wah:. DRM (which I expieriences in ROF) is not for me. I own every SH until now. I really want to own and play this game, but not with DRM.
So I am hoping that UBI see that DRM is not the answer and scraps this idea. I really like the look of the game and the new ideas that have been put in it. Like many others.. I just dont like the DRM.......:down:
So sorry UBI another lost sale until DRM is dropped..... :stare:
Elder-Pirate
02-15-10, 09:35 PM
As you can see under my user name I live in Morris, Illinois which is about 70/75 miles as the crow flies to Chicago where my AT&T High Speed Internet connection starts. I've had this Telephone/Internet combo for the past four years. I'm very sure they ( AT&T ) have maintenance periods when they are down but so help me I have never experienced a down time on the Internet in all this time. Lucky? Yes very lucky but my point is there is no way on this GODS green earth will I agree to a Internet company ( UBI nor any other ) making me ask them if I can play my game when I choose!
If all Hell breaks loose in the near future and Internet games are played this way, then I'll no longer be buying any new games as I've plenty to be played OFFLINE.
Besides I'm a model railroader in DCC HO scale and have a rather large layout that is 8 years old and does not require online connection period.
That can very much override this silly greedy DRM/OSP dreamed up funky idea.
Some computer geniuses just can not leave a good thing alone. :damn:
trenken
02-15-10, 09:43 PM
To the ones who are ok with this? Then you are nothing more than a sheep. End of story.
That's ridiculous. There are many people like myself who just dont care about it. We have internet connections that are reliable, so just because I dont have an issue with DRM I'm a sheep now? Come on. Another one stuck in the ways that things used to be. It's not our fault things are changing now. Some of us just roll with the punches and find ways to enjoy the games, despite the changes taking place.
Im not one to just bitch about things. Its a waste of time to me. If a change happens, such as DRM, ill find a way to deal with it. If I cant for some reason, well ill find something else to do. But complain about it I wont do.
Whatever your situation is, it doesnt apply to everyone. Maybe you dont have the internet, cant afford it, dont have a reliable connection, but I hate to break this to you, millions of people actually can afford it, and do have good connections. This would not be happening if there wasnt enough of us that could deal with it. So its getting to the point now where you are starting to become the minority. Insulting those of us that dont have an issue with it wont make things better for you.
Dont buy the game, noone cares. Go play SH3 or 4 for eternity and zip the lip.
trenken
02-15-10, 09:55 PM
Online authentication, okay.
And they day they stop the servers ? What will you do ?
Stare at the DVD cover ? Play with memories of the game ?
You're no longer buying a game you can play as much as you want.
You're renting a game. And when they pull the plug, it ends for you.
I will not accept online requirement to play a game. Not because of
the hassle, but because someday they can pull the plug and either
diseappear or don't care about you playing an old game.
You just dont know what you're talking about. You think a couple years from now or whatever that you wont be able to play SH5? Not happening man. Ubi is a huge company, its nothing for them to leave a few servers running for many years.
Maybe they wont update the game at some point, but there wont come a time anytime even remotely soon that you wont be able to play this game.
There are many old online only games that have been abandoned by their creators, that are still running to this day. You can go out and buy an old version of Diablo, it has no dev support, is online only, and its still running.
Im not one to just bitch about things. Its a waste of time to me. If a change happens, such as DRM, ill find a way to deal with it. If I cant for some reason, well ill find something else to do. But complain about it I wont do.
Well to me people have the right to complain, but there's some limit.
I mean some people STRESS so much about it, I guess they are gonna develop cancer and/or depression. :nope:
My primary concern with DRM is this:
It does bother some people (myself included), and some enough to actually stop them buying the game.
And reduced sales are rarely noticed by the publisher as something specific like DRM.
It will just reduce the profit the game makes, and mean a lower chance of a next game in the the series.
3DDevil
02-15-10, 10:20 PM
My primary concern with DRM is this:
It does bother some people (myself included), and some enough to actually stop them buying the game.
And reduced sales are rarely noticed by the publisher as something specific like DRM.
It will just reduce the profit the game makes, and mean a lower chance of a next game in the the series.
I agree with the above.... however, I think that with a series like SH.. they will notice sales drop because of DRM. I mean they look at it and all previous versions of SH sold relatively well considering thier nice market. But then SH5 comes out and sales crash!?? The game was better, why did it crash? A: The only thing they changed was DRM.
And I do think that they look at forums like this one. The ROF dev's realised thier mistake and took thier guidance from the forums. I think they also realised that people will pay for more product (DLC), in this case more planes. After the original sale is made. They realise that is where the money is. They are actually losing double the sales because of DRM. The people who originally wouldnt purchase the game because of DRM (sale lost) and the potential sales they could have gained if those people purchased the non DRM game and purchased add on DLC....
subsimlee
02-15-10, 10:24 PM
I'm with you Elder Pirate. I've got plenty of life to live that doesn't depend on future gaming. As you said, it's not just DRM/OSP on SH 5 but any future games that tie you to the fortunes of a large corporation ( Can anyone say... "G.M." or "Chrysler" or "Meryll Lynch" ) . Some people just don't get it. It's the principle!! You would think that the defenders of freedom and independence ( read Americans ) of ALL people would be the first to recognize this.
Make no mistake, I have no use for illegal copies of anything, but such an aggressive approach to security of intellectual property is actually developing a new market for software pirates, people who would otherwise happily buy the product! With the hopes of such a huge new market, you can bet the pirates will be working very hard to cash in.....sad and stupid....
THE_MASK
02-15-10, 10:45 PM
Well , you all wanted malfunctions and breakdowns in SH5 :yeah: looks like you may get your wish . Internet breakdowns and server malfunctions .
Arclight
02-15-10, 11:11 PM
Alright, that was funny. :rotfl2:
Don't necessarily agree, but funny. :yep:
Seafireliv
02-15-10, 11:35 PM
I'm with you Elder Pirate. I've got plenty of life to live that doesn't depend on future gaming. As you said, it's not just DRM/OSP on SH 5 but any future games that tie you to the fortunes of a large corporation ( Can anyone say... "G.M." or "Chrysler" or "Meryll Lynch" ) . Some people just don't get it. It's the principle!! You would think that the defenders of freedom and independence ( read Americans ) of ALL people would be the first to recognize this.
Make no mistake, I have no use for illegal copies of anything, but such an aggressive approach to security of intellectual property is actually developing a new market for software pirates, people who would otherwise happily buy the product! With the hopes of such a huge new market, you can bet the pirates will be working very hard to cash in.....sad and stupid....
Totally agree with one exception... I`m British. It`s not just smart Americans who realise this is unethical and wrong.
mookiemookie
02-15-10, 11:38 PM
You just dont know what you're talking about. You think a couple years from now or whatever that you wont be able to play? Not happening man. Brøderbund is a huge company, its nothing for them to leave a few servers running for many years.
You just dont know what you're talking about. You think a couple years from now or whatever that you wont be able to play? Not happening man. Ion Storm is a huge company, its nothing for them to leave a few servers running for many years.
You just dont know what you're talking about. You think a couple years from now or whatever that you wont be able to play? Not happening man. Sierra is a huge company, its nothing for them to leave a few servers running for many years.
You just dont know what you're talking about. You think a couple years from now or whatever that you wont be able to access your Lehman Bros account? Not happening man. Lehman is a huge company, its nothing for them to leave a few accounts open for many years.
:woot:
Seafireliv
02-15-10, 11:51 PM
You just dont know what you're talking about. You think a couple years from now or whatever that you wont be able to play SH5? Not happening man. Ubi is a huge company, its nothing for them to leave a few servers running for many years.
Maybe they wont update the game at some point, but there wont come a time anytime even remotely soon that you wont be able to play this game.
There are many old online only games that have been abandoned by their creators, that are still running to this day. You can go out and buy an old version of Diablo, it has no dev support, is online only, and its still running.
Sorry, Sir, but it`s you who does not know what he`s talking about. I am not willing to hope that my games will still be running in years from now depending on whether UBI keeps their servers going or not. many companies will quite happily ditch all their promises of a few years back if it suits them,. Not that long ago, a game called London HellsGate was realised which was playable online 24\7, there was an Offline component, but online on their servers was where it was at. The company quit suddenly, dropping loads of Players in the lurch. even a Dev popped up to say how unhappy they were with the boss`s idea and morale was at an all time low. Now the game is useless.
You are naive. A singleplayer game should NOT be 24\7 online on principle alone, let alone the rest of the disadvantages for the Player which are many. It doesn`t matter if you have wonderful internet, that`s not the point. No one should pay for an offline game then be hamstrung 24\7 on the net as if leasing. I want to be able to play my games 7 years from now which many i have which i still do play, IL2, MTW, Combat mission etc, etc. I want to play anywhere at any time, whether connected or not.
It is only good for greedy companies and it`s not our job to prop up greedy companies that are trying to push the boat out as far as it will go to see what they can get away with.
They`re testing us and we must show them it is unacceptable.
scrapser
02-15-10, 11:57 PM
I just came here fresh from reading reviews of another, non-simulation game published by Ubisoft. Apparently in order to play the new "Bioshock 2" game you must have a Windows Live account and cannot even save your progress unless you are logged in...even for those playing single player mode! This is ridiculous.
I'm not buying SH5 or Bioshock 2 (or any other game set up this way or close to it). I hope everyone else follows suit. I hope the companies pay attention too because this is the first time I have ever not bought a game that I know I would enjoy playing. That in itself says a corner has been turned.
JScones
02-16-10, 02:52 AM
Perhaps. There are several rumors floating around about the whys and wherefores of Neoqb dropping the requirement of a connection for single player. But most telling is their official announcement about it. I would think (my opinion only) that if the DRM had been a resounding success they would trumpet that from the roof tops and brag about how much money they saved because of it and how it was no longer needed. Instead, we get some talk about forum polls, customer opinions, network stats and marketing trends and how they are confident that legitimate copies will outnumber pirated ones. What I take away from all this (again, just my opinion) is that doing this will sell more copies. I am not so sure I would equate that to the DRM having done it's job.
Read and judge for yourselves :http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/post/2010/02/05/LOGIN-OFFLINE-ACCESS-GRANTED!!!.aspx (http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/post/2010/02/05/LOGIN-OFFLINE-ACCESS-GRANTED%21%21%21.aspx)
Agreed. It's what's not written in Neoqb's official announcement that speaks more than what was written.
I just came here fresh from reading reviews of another, non-simulation game published by Ubisoft. Apparently in order to play the new "Bioshock 2" game you must have a Windows Live account and cannot even save your progress unless you are logged in...even for those playing single player mode! This is ridiculous.
I'm not buying SH5 or Bioshock 2 (or any other game set up this way or close to it). I hope everyone else follows suit. I hope the companies pay attention too because this is the first time I have ever not bought a game that I know I would enjoy playing. That in itself says a corner has been turned.
You have to set up a Live account. But the account can be set up as an offline account so you can play it offline. It's works just the same on Xbox 360. That's a MAJOR difference compared to OSP.
Seafireliv
02-16-10, 04:16 AM
You have to set up a Live account. But the account can be set up as an offline account so you can play it offline. It's works just the same on Xbox 360. That's a MAJOR difference compared to OSP.
I don`t like any of these Activation things Windows Live included. But it is true that with Windows Live you can play Offline and save Offline... They just make it a little hard to find that bit. I even deactivated GTAIV and took it back to the shop, so i was not too unhappy about it.
I don`t like any of these Activation things Windows Live included. But it is true that with Windows Live you can play Offline and save Offline... They just make it a little hard to find that bit. I even deactivated GTAIV and took it back to the shop, so i was not too unhappy about it.
I don't like it either but as long as i'm given the option to play offline i can at least live with it. It doesn't hurt my gaming experience and the game isn't forced to pause. The OSP will seriously kill the gaming experience for sure. Everyone has so called network peaks with ping and packetloss daily. We usually don't notice because the connection doesn't usually die out when it happens. Internet is buildt this way. To connect to ubisoft you have to go through alot of servers on the way. This is routing. Doing a ping command in DOS will show you the route it takes. Sometimes you get a bad route, sometimes a good one.
My point is that it's not down to your connection. Your connection might be good and stabile but that doesn't help if the routing to your destination sucks big time. I can live with one time activations or even live accounts. But the OSP is probably the worst idea ever for a protection. Using piracy as an escuse to implement OSP is total bull**** imho. This is mainly done to stop secondhand sales and to control the market. Personally i am really starting to dislike Ubisoft in their efforts to make money. Earning money and doing business is totally fine. But by slapping paying customer in the face hiding behind things they call a service for the customer, is way beyond the ethics of doing business. I can pause the game and keep my savegames all by myself. I'm not a total idiot... i hope :P
Nordmann
02-16-10, 05:47 AM
Oh, thank you.
I know people who feel that way about you and anyone who actually pays for a game. Sheep.
It's not about paying for the game, it's about said game's DRM limitations. Face it, we are suffering more and more restrictions with each and every new game, new forms of DRM which do not appear to deter pirates in any way, only punish the genuine customer. How is this a good thing?
Perhaps your net connection is good enough not to worry about the constant connection requirement, but not all of us are as fortunate. My net drops out on a regular basis, a bit of bad whether and I won't be able to play the game I've paid for. Not exactly what you'd expect from a single-player game.
But hey ho, what does it matter? As long as some people are satisfied, bugger the rest of us. This would seem to be Ubi's underlying attitude, and if that doesn't tell you something about the future of this title, then I don't know what else will.
Seafireliv
02-16-10, 06:45 AM
I don't like it either but as long as i'm given the option to play offline i can at least live with it. It doesn't hurt my gaming experience and the game isn't forced to pause. The OSP will seriously kill the gaming experience for sure. Everyone has so called network peaks with ping and packetloss daily. We usually don't notice because the connection doesn't usually die out when it happens. Internet is buildt this way. To connect to ubisoft you have to go through alot of servers on the way. This is routing. Doing a ping command in DOS will show you the route it takes. Sometimes you get a bad route, sometimes a good one.
My point is that it's not down to your connection. Your connection might be good and stabile but that doesn't help if the routing to your destination sucks big time. I can live with one time activations or even live accounts. But the OSP is probably the worst idea ever for a protection. Using piracy as an escuse to implement OSP is total bull**** imho. This is mainly done to stop secondhand sales and to control the market. Personally i am really starting to dislike Ubisoft in their efforts to make money. Earning money and doing business is totally fine. But by slapping paying customer in the face hiding behind things they call a service for the customer, is way beyond the ethics of doing business. I can pause the game and keep my savegames all by myself. I'm not a total idiot... i hope :P
I totally agree. I would also call it unethical as well. I see absolutely NO reason why we should be 24\7 online (it doesn`t matter how good the net connection is, that`s besides the point) for an SP game or why we need our saves saving somewhere else.
All I can figure is that it is all done to ultimately benefit the company, not us, the customer. Perhaps they intend to charge for using SH5 or patches- who knows. It don`t look good anyway and from the customer POV completely unreasonable.
The biggest issue for me is the fact that I still play SHIII, and will for some time yet, it is now 8 years old, will UBI servers still be active for SH5 in 8 or more years?:-? I think not, when they drop support for the game they will cut us off, when it happens the game can no longer be played, and who would want to mod a game knowing it could be dropped any time they feel like it, not me and others feel the same way I'm sure!:doh: Basically your leasing the game till your lease runs out, that will be at UBI's discretion!:nope:
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 07:51 AM
The analogy I have given my wife to talk about slow internet speeds when we have a "fast" connection and she just doesn't understand why things are so slow is this: Imagine you have the fastest Ferrari built today. This sucker can do 0-100mph in 4.2 sec. and has a top end of 200+ mph and then you go to New York City during rush hour... How good does your fast car do you then? She got it real quick. :D
Some people are saying we do have an offline mode and some aren't I'm confused?
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 07:53 AM
Some people are saying we do have an offline mode and some aren't I'm confused?
Really? Where? I honestly haven't seen anyone claiming there is offline mode here, especially in the previews of the game.
sabretwo
02-16-10, 08:04 AM
Wow, I haven't been to this side of Subsim for almost a week and this discussion is still raging on! (Keep up the fight!:D)
After what I have been seeing lately with other publishers who tried the umbilical cord method of DRM, my guess is UBI will patch it up after their sales drop even lower than last year.
What mystifies me...Looking at UBI's revenues last year (or lack of), I originally thought this draconian DRM thing was a vain attempt to sell the Shareholders/Market that piracy was the reason to blame for their dismal year last year and that they were taking steps to end that loss. Not exactly a smart PR strategy in the long run, but shareholders and the Market will often buy a line of BS if the seller can sell it well. Howeevr, like musical chairs, that kind of PR only boosts share prices until the music stops and real sales start coming in (or NOT) with the new system in place.
But in light of all the other companies dropping this kind of DRM lately due to lost sales and add to that the obviously HUGE and outspoken sales base that now looks at UBI as 'Darth Vader and the Empire', I would think that they'd change course before the train completely derails.
Maybe the guys on the Executive Floor really are as stupid as they look right now.:hmmm:
Nordmann
02-16-10, 08:15 AM
The analogy I have given my wife to talk about slow internet speeds when we have a "fast" connection and she just doesn't understand why things are so slow is this: Imagine you have the fastest Ferrari built today. This sucker can do 0-100mph in 4.2 sec. and has a top end of 200+ mph and then you go to New York City during rush hour... How good does your fast car do you then? She got it real quick. :D
Nice analogy, and likely very true. They claim that they have all the bases covered as far as server load is concerned, but you really have to wonder. Thousands of people's profiles and saved games, being updated and accessed simultaneously, such a system is open to problems.
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 08:55 AM
Nice analogy, and likely very true. They claim that they have all the bases covered as far as server load is concerned, but you really have to wonder. Thousands of people's profiles and saved games, being updated and accessed simultaneously, such a system is open to problems.
Doesn't matter what they do, as has been pointed out already, there's a lot of routes between here (US) and there. Lots can happen beyond their control. I've read too many articles over the past few years by those "in the now" that are extremely worried with the infrastructure that's in place being able to hold up under the ever increasing demand placed upon the internet. Things are constantly being updated but it's being far outpaced by developing nations (read China- 1/4 the world's population and India) and with the great popularity of movies and video clips constantly being transmitted. All these things are stressing a very old system that was never designed or envisioned to do what we expect of it today. It's a race to restructure networks and infrastructure while upgrading nodes and servers while hoping the demand doesn't bring it all crashing down. Then factor in the "wonderful" people that purposely try to crash systems and networks, countries dabbling with cyberwarfare, etc. and these games are very minor in comparison to the load that's placed upon the system as a whole... :nope:
Hartmann
02-16-10, 09:05 AM
One possibility is a mixed option,
with login first and continuos connection, in case of disconnect the game will continue playing but with a visible sign in the screen with the words "Internet connection lost" so ilegitimate users have to deal with the constant caption in the screen while registered users not, only in ping timeout periods. :hmmm:
TDK1044
02-16-10, 09:38 AM
Let's say that someone purchases Silent Hunter 5, and because of his personal availability, he can only actually play the game between the hours of 6PM and 8PM on Saturdays and Sundays.
Because those days are the busiest in terms of server access, every time he tries to log on and play the game during that window, he is denied access.
He has therefore spent $49 on a game that he can't play. He can't get his money back on the game, because nobody offers a refund for computer software/video games, and he can't change his availability in order to try and access the servers at a different time.
In the pre DRM era he would have had no problem, but now he has a $49 coaster and no access to a game he wants to play.
Does he have a legal claim against Ubisoft? I wonder what kind of disclaimer will be written in the mice type on the box?
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 09:43 AM
Depends on what country this hypothetical player is in.
Here in the UK? Refund, no problem. Even if it's bought through Steam or any other company who say they don't give refunds. Their terms don't override our laws, and if you know your rights it's easy enough to "bully" the retailer into a refund.
TDK1044
02-16-10, 09:46 AM
I have a feeling that the attempted returns will be the highest ever because of the online element. Time will tell I guess. :)
Be assured. There will be some relavent "fine print" in the End User License Agreement....:yep:
Darkreaver1980
02-16-10, 09:52 AM
What is up with you people?
you will buy the game, come home and play it right away.
why is everyone acting like the world is going to end? lol
Dont tell me that you arent connected 24 hours per day :P
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 09:55 AM
Be assured. There will be some relavent "fine print" in the End User License Agreement....:yep:
Doesn't matter.
If Ubisoft put in their fine print that it's okay for them to murder me, does that make it legal?
Contracts and license agreements cannot and do not override the law. They frequently attempt to, but it's always a bluff.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 09:56 AM
you know we have to work...and have family...? and hopefully some sex in between?
be real!
This is a theory, how we will put it into practice is another matter, but hopefully not too different.
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 10:02 AM
What is up with you people?
you will buy the game, come home and play it right away.
why is everyone acting like the world is going to end? lol
Dont tell me that you arent connected 24 hours per day :P
Oh you don't know how wrong you are. Of course the world isn't coming to an end and even though I've liked what I've seen and have all the other version in the series this one I will not buy. Period.
Sailor Steve
02-16-10, 10:04 AM
Dont tell me that you arent connected 24 hours per day :P
Most of the time I'm not connected at all. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Oh you don't know how wrong you are. Of course the world isn't coming to an end and even though I've liked what I've seen and have all the other version in the series this one I will not buy. Period.
I'm not buying either!
NO to DRM
Why is everyone acting like this?
Because we all are not rolling over like a few fanboys.
Moo :salute::salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:
elanaiba
02-16-10, 10:38 AM
Let's say that someone purchases Silent Hunter 5, and because of his personal availability, he can only actually play the game between the hours of 6PM and 8PM on Saturdays and Sundays.
Because those days are the busiest in terms of server access, every time he tries to log on and play the game during that window, he is denied access.
He has therefore spent $49 on a game that he can't play. He can't get his money back on the game, because nobody offers a refund for computer software/video games, and he can't change his availability in order to try and access the servers at a different time.
In the pre DRM era he would have had no problem, but now he has a $49 coaster and no access to a game he wants to play.
Does he have a legal claim against Ubisoft? I wonder what kind of disclaimer will be written in the mice type on the box?
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Hunter-Battle-Atlantic-Pc/dp/B002PAIPQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1266334544&sr=8-1
I don't know about disclaimer but I can see something very large written on that box.
Nordmann
02-16-10, 10:45 AM
What is up with you people?
Have you been living under a rock? This DRM rubbish is what is up with us, I suggest you read about it, if that's even remotely possible.
you will buy the game, come home and play it right away.
Who said we are buying it? You? Sure thing mate, if you pay for it!
why is everyone acting like the world is going to end? lol
Oh, so being concerned about a feature of the product equates to acting as if the world is going to end? Really? Sound logic there!
Dont tell me that you arent connected 24 hours per day :P
Maybe we are, maybe we are not. The point is, we should not be forced into using a net connection for a single-player game; it's nothing short of ludicrous, and if you had any sense, you would see that.
Honestly, where do people like you keep coming from? You're not a Ubi employee by any chance? I wouldn't be surprised!
TDK1044
02-16-10, 10:47 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Hunter-Battle-Atlantic-Pc/dp/B002PAIPQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1266334544&sr=8-1
I don't know about disclaimer but I can see something very large written on that box.
Sure, Dan. But that 'Internet Connection Required' statement doesn't address Ubisoft's legal requirement to provide server access 24/7. It simply states that you need an internet connection in order to play the game. :)
I have two copies on pre-order; one for me and the other to give away, have to spread the sub love.
The "internet connection needed" is printed very clearly on the front of the box so there is no need to return anything.
TDK1044
02-16-10, 10:52 AM
This thread honestly wasn't meant as another negative DRM issue, but rather a genuine concern regarding what I consider to be a potential powder keg.
elanaiba
02-16-10, 10:52 AM
Sure, Dan. But that 'Internet Connection Required' statement doesn't address Ubisoft's legal requirement to provide server access 24/7. It simply states that you need an internet connection in order to play the game. :)
Oh, I get it now, you're referring what happens if the Ubi server is the one actually "problematic".
Yep, no idea on that part. Hopefully that won't be a problem though.
TDK1044
02-16-10, 10:53 AM
I have two copies on pre-order; one for me and the other to give away, have to spread the sub love.
The "internet connection needed" is printed very clearly on the front of the box so there is no need to return anything.
Sure there is if your internet connection is working perfectly but Ubisoft's servers are not accessible.
ryanglavin
02-16-10, 10:54 AM
Its a single player game, and I have a feeling that the only reason Ubisoft put DRM on SH5 was that they put it on every other product that they're coming out with (nearly, but name me a product thats coming out that doesn't from Ubisoft, cause I'll buy it :yeah:)
danlisa
02-16-10, 10:55 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Hunter-Battle-Atlantic-Pc/dp/B002PAIPQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1266334544&sr=8-1
I don't know about disclaimer but I can see something very large written on that box.
:hmmm: Don't see that requirement on the UK box.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Hunter-5-PC-DVD/dp/B002U0KBT8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1266335363&sr=8-1
Either way (assuming box art is incorrect), server outages/downtime prevent the owners of the game from playing. That is where the respective law in each country will come into play. Ubi could potentially be open to claims from stores or retailers following refunds to disappointed owners (assuming the servers continue along current form).
TDK1044
02-16-10, 10:57 AM
Oh, I get it now, you're referring what happens if the Ubi server is the one actually "problematic".
Yep, no idea on that part. Hopefully that won't be a problem though.
I can only judge by the multi player option in earlier versions, Dan. I tried it three or four times. I was never able to connect and so I gave up. Not a big problem as I prefer the single player mode anyway. But it would be a big problem this time, because a player has to use the servers in order to play the game at all.
elanaiba
02-16-10, 10:57 AM
danlisa, scroll a little down:
Manufacturer's Description
A permanent Broadband internet connection and creation of a Ubisoft log-in are required to play.
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 10:59 AM
This just in... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_broadband_data
danlisa
02-16-10, 11:00 AM
danlisa, scroll a little down:
Manufacturer's Description
A permanent Broadband internet connection and creation of a Ubisoft log-in are required to play.
:rotfl2: What! Read an entire page on the interwebs? You serious. This generation never reads the small print. I get dazzled by the pretty box and pays my money.:DL
Point taken. Still, the reliability of the servers required for play is the weak point in this DRM venture.
Darkreaver1980
02-16-10, 11:04 AM
Hi there,
im realy suprised that so many people are upset. For myself, i already preordered silent hunter 5. Why should i cancel my preorder because of this DRM? I will open the game, install it and than play right away, my router is connected 24/7 anway and i think about 90% of all people have a permament connection too.
So, where is the drawback? i buy this game to have fun, because i love submarine games and i am able to play it...thats the only thing i want.
Only problem that i could see is that to many people are buying it and that the server will crash because of it.
i would say after 2-3 days the server will run 100% stable.
i just hope that we are able to chat in some global chat...because all people are connected to Ubi anyway...wouldnt this rock?! Chat with other people while you are sailing around! brag about your newest kill! :D
i also think that this copy proctection is a good way to go, its virtually not crackable, because the game needs an active connection to a server to work
Edit: And no, i dont work for Ubisoft lol :haha:
TDK1044
02-16-10, 11:07 AM
No. Don't be intimidated by the opinion of others. Purchase the game and enjoy it. As to your question though, I would argue that this is one reason for concern regarding DRM.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1269407&postcount=1
Darkreaver1980
02-16-10, 11:09 AM
No. Don't be intimidated by the opinion of others. Purchase the game and enjoy it. As to your question though, I would argue that this is one reason for concern regarding DRM.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1269407&postcount=1
yes, thats a big drawback but most people will have a permament connection. I just hope that ubisoft will offer some kind of global chat or messenging service accross all connected players. That wouldnt be hard to do and i would pay twice the price for it :yeah:
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 11:09 AM
I will open the game, install it and than play right away, my router is connected 24/7 anway and i think about 90% of all people have a permament connection too.
No offense but you really do need to educate yourself a bit more:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_broadband_data
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 11:10 AM
For you? Sounds to me like there are no drawbacks. :yeah:
But some people don't have 24/7 internet or if they do it's not reliable. Some people have privacy concerns. Some other people seem to think that "principles" or "morality" or "ethics" have something to do with it, but don't ask me what those people are smoking.
Darkreaver1980
02-16-10, 11:12 AM
No offense but you really do need to educate yourself a bit more:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_broadband_data
This only means BROADBAND connection, not a 24/7 connection.
For myself, i only have a DSL 2000 connection (240kb/s) connected 24/7, i pay once per month for it thats how all european Provider work. You pay once per month and are connected 24/7, dont know about the USA and other parts of the world...do they have the same?
Safe-Keeper
02-16-10, 11:15 AM
I don't understand why save games have to be stored online, nor why you have to be on the Internet all the time while playing, rather than just having to have SH5 connect to the Web, enter a password and username, and then log back off and play. But I suppose there are reasons for this, and currently I support DRM as an anti-piracy measure.
Frankly, the "you'll never stop piracy!" tone of many dissidents makes me wonder what their true motivation for wanting DRM gone might be. "I won't buy the game while it has DRM" - probably true, but would you buy it, as in pay for it, if it didn't? Remember, as I've said several times, there's one very good way to stop the industry from using prohibitive anti-piracy measures. Stop pirating games.
i just hope that we are able to chat in some global chat...because all people are connected to Ubi anyway...wouldnt this rock?! Chat with other people while you are sailing around! brag about your newest kill! :DThat'd be awesome, would add functionality to the radio.
piri_reis
02-16-10, 11:15 AM
Your assumptions are wrong,
%90 percent of the people have permanent connections? No the percentage is much much less. And those that do, pay for permanent connections but the service goes down every once a while.
Servers go down, applications crash, that means you will be bound to somebody elses services to play your single player game.
After 2-3 days, %100 stable? Yeah you must be new in computing... That's never true.
Virtually uncrackable? :D How do you know? Did UBI just invent this? Yes people have used this protection in the past and there ways to get around it.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 11:16 AM
No offense but you really do need to educate yourself a bit more:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_broadband_data
Very interesting link!
Though I think a more relevant statistic would be: what percentage of PC gamers in the US have a broadband subscription? It's safe to say that nobody outside of that group is going to be buying SH5.
And if Ubi pulls the plug on their servers and does not release a patch?
Do you know for sure they will release a patch?
You're at their mercy. If they decide that it's time for SH6, and they pull the plug on the SH5 DRM server, and refuse to release a patch, you have two options. You can stop playing a game you paid for, or you can break the law and run a cracked version.
I find neither of these choices to be acceptable.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 11:22 AM
:rotfl2: What! Read an entire page on the interwebs?
Come on Dan, everyone knows it's teh interweb. :O:
Safe-Keeper
02-16-10, 11:22 AM
Though I think a more relevant statistic would be: what percentage of PC gamers in the US have a broadband subscription? It's safe to say that nobody outside of that group is going to be buying SH5. True, that. Games that require you to be online at all times usually fail miserably (http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2008/12/world-of-warc-1/):O:.
Heretic
02-16-10, 11:25 AM
Sadly, the wild claims of doom, conspiracy theories, and general rudeness and condescending attitude of some of the more vocal critics has actually softened my attitude towards the DRM. :cry:
Hi there,
im realy suprised that so many people are upset. For myself, i already preordered silent hunter 5. Why should i cancel my preorder because of this DRM? I will open the game, install it and than play right away, my router is connected 24/7 anway and i think about 90% of all people have a permament connection too.
So, where is the drawback? i buy this game to have fun, because i love submarine games and i am able to play it...thats the only thing i want.
Only problem that i could see is that to many people are buying it and that the server will crash because of it.
i would say after 2-3 days the server will run 100% stable.
i just hope that we are able to chat in some global chat...because all people are connected to Ubi anyway...wouldnt this rock?! Chat with other people while you are sailing around! brag about your newest kill! :D
i also think that this copy proctection is a good way to go, its virtually not crackable, because the game needs an active connection to a server to work
Edit: And no, i dont work for Ubisoft lol :haha:
i know this may sound simplistic, but; can you imagine having to phone to the bookshop every time you wanted to turn the page of a book you have bought.
i dont want to chat with lots of people. i want to play my game when i like - on my own usually.
plus, i dont want my information saved somewhere else. my saved games are mine, they belong to me - with me, on my pc. i'm sorry but there is a deeper concern running thru all this for me. and one i will not rant on about here:woot:
but hey!! the game looks lovely, maybe things will change:hmmm:
If you wouldn't mind showing a receipt to prove your not a criminal
every time you turn on your telly, then online DRM won't bother you.
If your 100% sure ubisoft won't go the way of previous big names like
looking glass studios, then online DRM won't bother you.
If your 100% sure Ubisoft won't turn off the servers before you finish
wanting to use the game (because they will one day, even if it's a long
way off), online DRM won't bother you.
And finally, if renting a game indefinably and owning a game are the
same thing to you, online DRM won't bother you.
Otherwise, you may want to reconsider your order.
piri_reis
02-16-10, 11:28 AM
The box at amazon also has "PC - DVD - ONLINE" printed.
Oh maybe it is a massive multiplayer/cooperative WW2 subsim?..
How useless statements.
I hope they'll have to reprint those boxes and manuals and everything when this thing blows up.
It's interesting that every single "what's so bad about DRM" or "DRM works great for me in all kinds of games!" posts are people with no post count.
Just sayin'.
If you're not a paid employee of DRM Corp™ please excuse this comment (and wlcome!).
Here in the UK? Refund, no problem. Even if it's bought through Steam or any other company who say they don't give refunds.
Yup, OLC is right.
If you buy anything in the UK and have any reason not to be happy with
it, you can return it for a refund; whatever the end user agreement is.
Having to be online to play is a bad thing in my oppinion.
I mean, assuming that it works well right now, it would be fine for now.
But sometimes you want to install one of your really old games and put some good hours into it. Websites from many old games aren't serviced anymore and that makes me fear that SH5 Servers won't be running as long as necessary.
I mean, if somebody wants to play it again in 6 years or so, are the servers still running ? If not, then there will hopefully be some kind of legacy patch that makes the game locally playable, without internet connection.
Safe-Keeper
02-16-10, 11:43 AM
i know this may sound simplistic, but; can you imagine having to phone to the bookshop every time you wanted to turn the page of a book you have bought.No, I can't, because us readers don't steal books at a rate of 9:10. If, for every tenth book that was sold in a book store, nine books were shoplifted, you could bet your butt that the book store industry would go to drastic lengths to restrict your ability to shoplift books.
No, I can't, because us readers don't steal books at a rate of 9:10. If, for every tenth book that was sold in a book store, nine books were shoplifted, you could bet your butt that the book store industry would go to drastic lengths to restrict your ability to shoplift books.
Umm...
How do you fit libraries into that?
I am not going to aske permission from Ubi every time I want to play. I don't need to nor want to chat with anybody while I play (where does this come from? This feature has never been mentioned by Ubi)
Dark sounds like a few of the other fans.
Anyway fans may go ahead and buy as they wish. Just don't tell us to eat muck because flies like it.
Moo :D
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 11:47 AM
A lot of these analogies are really badly broken.
Would I show my receipt every five minutes? Make a phonecall every five minutes? Ask someone's permission every five minutes? No, of course not.
Will I allow my PC to connect to a server every five minutes, using it's always-on connection? Yes.
Ask someone's permission every five minutes? No, of course not.
Will I allow my PC to connect to a server every five minutes, using it's always-on connection? Yes.
How are these any different? You're asking permission via your connection.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 11:52 AM
How are these any different? You're asking permission via your connection.
Not verbally. Not physically. In fact, I'm not actually doing anything at all.
Not verbally. Not physically. In fact, I'm not actually doing anything at all.
And if you make a phone call, you're not actually talking to a person. You're talking into a microphone, that transmits electrical signals across a wire, that gets translated to a signal at the other end. A response is formed, translated into a signal that passes along wires, etc...
You're asking permission using the computer, instead of a phone.
So, if you have a tape recorder and automatic dialer doing the asking for permission on the phone, that's ok with you? It's not you doing it, it's the machine.
Point being, the machine is only a tool you are using. It doesn't have a mind of its own.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 11:55 AM
i think about 90% of all people have a permament connection too.
think again.
i would say after 2-3 days the server will run 100% stable.
think twice. who cares about the fekkin server? once they have your money in their pockets...
i just hope that we are able to chat in some global chat...because all people are connected to Ubi anyway...wouldnt this rock?! Chat with other people while you are sailing around! brag about your newest kill! :D
useless? teamspeak, skype, ICQ... SUBSIM:rotfl2:
Advice: be more critical about who you connect to. protect your data and your assets.
Not verbally. Not physically. In fact, I'm not actually doing anything at all.
If they stick the receipt to your forehead at the shop then you don't have to do anything to show it either.
Of course, with online DRM you have to physicaly connect to the world wide interwebs
piri_reis
02-16-10, 11:57 AM
Not verbally. Not physically. In fact, I'm not actually doing anything at all.
Yeah, your computer is doing all the work.
But what if:
the permission is denied? (Something went haywire in the registry/installation)
UBI Server unavailable.
Etc.
It's not your computer playing SH5, it is you right?
So your computer will go, whatever OLC, it doesn't bother me :haha:
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 12:00 PM
You're asking permission using the computer, instead of a phone.
@ OLC...
you are asking permission over and over again.
HOW is not important. The fact that you have to "ask permission/prove ownership" is the bad thing.
+
if they chose to deny access for whatever reason... you do not <hat you paid for.
You wanna be treated like a potential thief? have it your way.
SteamWake
02-16-10, 12:00 PM
Cough cough... er.. Data Mining... ahem...
Carry on :salute:
Nicolas
02-16-10, 12:02 PM
Why i need to use the internet to play an offline game :stare:
Ah, the exciting new services... ah those, what services? :stare:
Flopper
02-16-10, 12:06 PM
Here's an example of what's horrific about it:
Yesterday, the ATT truck was up here installing DSL for my neighbor. For about two hours, my DSL service was intermittent, and it was quite annoying that I couldn't get online. I can only imagine how livid I would have been if I also couldn't enjoy "my" game due to an internet outage. (I get outraged over single ply paper bags.)
I also "purchased" Battlefield 1942 for Xbox last year, obviously online only... but played it for a month, and ever since, EVERY time I try to connect the server is busy (try again later).
If I can't play SH5 offline, I'll just keep my wallet closed until the price is right, say 5 dollars.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 12:07 PM
If they stick the receipt to your forehead at the shop then you don't have to do anything to show it either.
Of course, with online DRM you have to physicaly connect to the world wide interwebs
Two more broken analogies.
I get what you're saying, but the analogies you use all involve hassle that simply has no equivalent for the SH5 player with a stable connection. It's the straw man argument.
Yeah, your computer is doing all the work.
But what if the permission is denied? (Something went haywire in the registry/installation)
UBI Server unavailable.
Etc.
I'm not seeing how that's relevant, but obviously if the servers don't work then I can't play, and if I can't play then I'll take the game back and get a refund.
:ping:If one reads Ubi's 2009-10 quarterly statement to shareholders one can see that Ubi management is not only bee essing us but also their shareholders. I don't expect Ubi to survive 'til 2011.
The event will be called suicide by DRM.
Adriatico
02-16-10, 12:10 PM
Will I allow my PC to connect to a server every five minutes, using it's always-on connection? Yes.
When you buy something it should be yours.
We should be treated as clients i.e. customers... not like dogs.
If Ubi wants to treat me as dog, to keep me one their chain - it is their right.
My right is - not to offer my neck.
And afterall, we have never seen any apology from Ubi side - the least that customer deserves.
They humiliate us by "idiotic" promotions of thier service-advantages...
Piracy is their problem - not mine.
It could be our common problem - if they come straight and apologize... and propose to discuss the options.
If they treat me like a dog - i will bite.
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 12:10 PM
This only means BROADBAND connection, not a 24/7 connection.
For myself, i only have a DSL 2000 connection (240kb/s) connected 24/7, i pay once per month for it thats how all european Provider work. You pay once per month and are connected 24/7, dont know about the USA and other parts of the world...do they have the same?
I only gave you one quick example, many more can be found if you're truly interested in looking... DSL, at least here in the US, is no where near reliable as cable connections. There are still many areas of the US, and not just way out in the boondocks, where people only have the option of dial-up. Definitely not always online. Other countries are much better than this and much worse. I'm not going to do the footwork for you but if you really want to know some accurate statistics all you need do is search, Google and the like are your friends. ;)
I'm glad you will enjoy your game and I hope all of us non-believers will be wrong.
I edited this because I forgot to correct your assumption that Broadband only means cable, DSL is also considered broadband... it refers to the speed and DSL is fast enough over dial-up to qualify:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_Internet_access
Two more broken analogies.
I get what you're saying, but the analogies you use all involve hassle that simply has no equivalent for the SH5 player with a stable connection. It's the straw man argument.
I disagree because the point that is being made is not that DRM is a
hassle. That is not the argument the analogy is making.
It is about having to prove ones innocence every time you wish to use
something you paid for, however hassle free and it's about needing
permission to use something you "own".
Two more broken analogies.
I get what you're saying, but the analogies you use all involve hassle that simply has no equivalent for the SH5 player with a stable connection. It's the straw man argument.
So, as long as it's not directly there reminding you every minute, then it doesn't really exist?
I'm not seeing how that's relevant, but obviously if the servers don't work then I can't play, and if I can't play then I'll take the game back and get a refund.
I shouldn't have to hope something is going to work when I buy it. I may buy a defective product once in a while, but I should not expect there to be a 50/50 chance it will be defective. I'd be running back and forth to the store quite a lot.
Seafireliv
02-16-10, 12:14 PM
When you buy something it should be yours.
We should be treated as clients i.e. customers... not like dogs.
If Ubi wants to treat me as dog, to keep me one their chain - it is their right.
My right is - not to offer my neck.
And afterall, we have never seen any apology from Ubi side - the least that customer deserves.
They humiliate us by "idiotic" promotions of thier service-advantages...
Piracy is their problem - not mine.
It could be our common problem - if they come straight and apologize... and propose to discuss the options.
If they treat me like a dog - i will bite.
hear! hear! i`m not wearing their collar!
GREY WOLF 3
02-16-10, 12:17 PM
Why is the new DRM so bad?!:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::damn:
Seafireliv
02-16-10, 12:17 PM
What is up with you people?
you will buy the game, come home and play it right away.
why is everyone acting like the world is going to end? lol
Dont tell me that you arent connected 24 hours per day :P
Man, how I hate this limited, blinkered thinking. If this is how UBI thinks then no wonder they thought up this insane DRM.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 12:21 PM
@ OLC...
you are asking permission over and over again.
HOW is not important. The fact that you have to "ask permission/prove ownership" is the bad thing.
+
if they chose to deny access for whatever reason... you do not <hat you paid for.
You wanna be treated like a potential thief? have it your way.
I never said I wanted OSP. If they take it out I'll be fine with that.
But to answer your point I have to ask you why exactly is it a bad thing? Broken analogies aside, exactly how is this completely transparent check a big problem for me? Yes, if the servers don't work at all then that's a problem, but I'm not a big enough muppet to buy the game straight away without first waiting to see whether the service works for the muppets who do. If the servers work for a while and then stop? And if Ubisoft don't release the promised patch? And if I still want to play SH5 when that happens? Well that's a lot of ifs, but if that did happen I'd use a "fixed" executable file. Problem solved.
Cough cough... er.. Data Mining... ahem...
Carry on :salute:
Everyone has their own line when it comes to privacy of data. Personally I don't mind if Ubisoft knows how many hours I spent torpedoing merchants on Tuesday.
jokerl90
02-16-10, 12:23 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up somewhere else.
With the worlds economy as it is, who can really say they will be able to afford to pay for internet access in 6-mo, a year?
If it comes to paying the electric bill or paying a bill for internet access, I think the electric bill would win out.
Without this DRM you could still play, with it, your just screwed.
I apologize if this has been brought up somewhere else.
With the worlds economy as it is, who can really say they will be able to afford to pay for internet access in 6-mo, a year?
If it comes to paying the electric bill or paying a bill for internet access, I think the electric bill would win out.
Without this DRM you could still play, with it, your just screwed.
If you don't pay the electric bill, the internet connection and computer aren't going to be very useful anyway.
Adriatico
02-16-10, 12:27 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up somewhere else.
With the worlds economy as it is, who can really say they will be able to afford to pay for internet access in 6-mo, a year?
If it comes to paying the electric bill or paying a bill for internet access, I think the electric bill would win out.
That's why people buy things - to have them.
...not to share (rent) them on internet connection.
I apologize if this has been brought up somewhere else.
With the worlds economy as it is, who can really say they will be able to afford to pay for internet access in 6-mo, a year?
If it comes to paying the electric bill or paying a bill for internet access, I think the electric bill would win out.
Without this DRM you could still play, with it, your just screwed.
Yet another reason to dump DRM :down::down::down::down::down:
GREY WOLF 3
02-16-10, 12:28 PM
Yup, OLC is right.
If you buy anything in the UK and have any reason not to be happy with
it, you can return it for a refund; whatever the end user agreement is.
There will be alot of returns.if drm is like our postal service.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 12:30 PM
So, as long as it's not directly there reminding you every minute, then it doesn't really exist?
I didn't say it doesn't exist. I said it doesn't bother me.
I shouldn't have to hope something is going to work when I buy it. I may buy a defective product once in a while, but I should not expect there to be a 50/50 chance it will be defective. I'd be running back and forth to the store quite a lot.
I couldn't agree more. I still don't see what it has to do with the broken analogies we were discussing.
Bilge_Rat
02-16-10, 12:30 PM
I certainly do not want to defend Ubisoft since I do not see the need for such a system on a niche game like a subsim, but I presume they have done their homework on how this will work.
As I see it, best case scenario, it works as painlessly as STEAM, which I presume is what they are aiming for to not only: a) authenticate installs, but also b) sell games over the internet.
Secondly, no matter what Ubisoft is saying now, they will have to include some sort of offline playing mode, like STEAM. They will soon realize that requiring players to be connected 100% of the time is impractical.
Worst case scenario, the system is a hopeless nightmare and Ubisoft will release a patch in a few months (after most of the sales have been made) to allow the game to be played offline. They will not leave players in a lurch since that would open Ubisoft up to a class action suit.
piri_reis
02-16-10, 12:33 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up somewhere else.
With the worlds economy as it is, who can really say they will be able to afford to pay for internet access in 6-mo, a year?
If it comes to paying the electric bill or paying a bill for internet access, I think the electric bill would win out.
Without this DRM you could still play, with it, your just screwed.
Oh man, now some will say, why are you playing SH when you have to work to 24/7 for paying bills... :nope:
See some people think the whole world is just like their neighborhood, everybody is connected, cheap, 100% reliable DSL/Cable connection, cheap electricity, life is swell... They need take a peek in world news and realize not everybody is living the same life.
Radioshow
02-16-10, 12:35 PM
What is up with you people?
you will buy the game, come home and play it right away.
why is everyone acting like the world is going to end? lol
Dont tell me that you arent connected 24 hours per day :P
I guess you don't know anyone in Australia or anyone who isn't rich.
Many internet providers give you a very limited amount of GB's to download.
Now your SH5 is sucking that too and when your limit is up, your capped and no joy. So now you have to wait the rest of the month for your bandwidth to reset so you can play? A single player game?
Its not having a connection we're worried about its being connected the WHOLE time. A great many people still have slow or limited connections, not everyone has a perfect 24hr connection or unlimited bandwidth which this game WILL apparently require.
Adriatico
02-16-10, 12:39 PM
Ubi will very soon face a problem - of distributors - having a problem with retailers - having a problem with buyers who want their money back.
Of course, nobody will get money back - but also nobody will order another quantity of SH5.
:dead:
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 12:43 PM
I disagree because the point that is being made is not that DRM is a
hassle. That is not the argument the analogy is making.
It is about having to prove ones innocence every time you wish to use
something you paid for, however hassle free and it's about needing
permission to use something you "own".
Yeah, as I said I do get what your point is. At least I think I do. You see OSP as being guilty until proven innocent. You object to it on principle strongly enough that even if it works perfectly you'll have no part of it. But you and others keep making that point with analogies that are not analogous (sp?). That's what keeps doing my head in. That's what I commented on - the analogies, not the point behind them.
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 12:45 PM
Yeah, as I said I do get what your point is. At least I think I do. You see OSP as being guilty until proven innocent. You object to it on principle strongly enough that even if it works perfectly you'll have no part of it. But you and others keep making that point with analogies that are not analogous. That's what keeps doing my head in. That's what I commented on - the analogies, not the point behind them.
Don't worry, some of us get your point/position. ;)
Yeah, as I said I do get what your point is. At least I think I do. You see OSP as being guilty until proven innocent. You object to it on principle strongly enough that even if it works perfectly you'll have no part of it. But you and others keep making that point with analogies that are not analogous (sp?). That's what keeps doing my head in. That's what I commented on - the analogies, not the point behind them.
The important part of the analogy is the same. The part the makes the point.
Of course the rest of the analogy is different. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be an
analogy; it would just be a retelling.
Adriatico
02-16-10, 12:50 PM
Customers dignity aside:
OLC would you say the same things - if you were citisen of some outskirt of east-european town - with ADSL that drops 5-7 times per day... i.e. being black-listed by Ubi as not European enough ?
:hmmm:
I shouldn't have to hope something is going to work when I buy it. I may buy a defective product once in a while, but I should not expect there to be a 50/50 chance it will be defective. I'd be running back and forth to the store quite a lot.
50/50 is a very unlikely probability for server use. Look at Steam -- this service has been running for years and I can only think of one or two times that it same down and prevented me from using my content.
Not to mention, verification is not exactly a high-intensity use of the server. Look at your average MMO -- WoW servers cater to about 10k players; Eve Online can support about 30k simultaneous players, and that's transmitting and calculating massive amounts of data.
Also, regarding the broadband argument: while only 60% of the US population may have broadband, the number of serious gamers with broadband -- ones who will be affected by this -- is probably much higher. I know there are always people who have dial up or something else and cannot manage the online connection, but they are not a large, or critical (in the gaming industry's eyes) population of players. I suspect they'll gladly lose the 5% of gamers who cannot play the game due to no internet if they feel it will stop piracy. Piracy is definitely a problem; the issue is whether these sorts of measures will decrease piracy (and force sales) or just decrease piracy without increasing sales. The former situation is certainly what they'd like; I suspect the latter is the more likely case.
There will be alot of returns.if drm is like our postal service.
Watcha got against our postal service?
/postal engineer
Skullcowboy
02-16-10, 12:52 PM
Frankly, the "you'll never stop piracy!" tone of many dissidents makes me wonder what their true motivation for wanting DRM gone might be. "I won't buy the game while it has DRM" - probably true, but would you buy it, as in pay for it, if it didn't? Remember, as I've said several times, there's one very good way to stop the industry from using prohibitive anti-piracy measures. Stop pirating games.
This is one of the things the upsets me THE MOST. If you have no problem being treated like a pirate out of the gate, good for you. By all means buy the game and I won't badmouth you a bit. But please don't insult me with insinuations that because I am standing up for something that I must just want to pirate games.
I have paid for every single PC game I have ever owned. I think piracy is wrong. But only a little Googling will show that DRM does more to inconvenience paying customers than it does to stop piracy or even slow it down. Several of the most heavily DRM laden games were on the torrent sites BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN RELEASED. So yes, I get a little PO'd when I am treated with suspicion and my ability to enjoy what I have legitimately purchased is hindered by something that really is ineffective at what it is 'supposed' to do.
I am not a pirate. I am a customer. Pirates don't buy games, customers do. Stop treating me like a pirate.
No, I can't, because us readers don't steal books at a rate of 9:10. If, for every tenth book that was sold in a book store, nine books were shoplifted, you could bet your butt that the book store industry would go to drastic lengths to restrict your ability to shoplift books.
Piracy is copyright infringement, not theft. There are volumes of laws written to cover copyright infringement and that is what you are charged with if you are caught doing it, not theft. Theft involves the loss of a tangible good, copyright infringement does not. So stealing physical books has no connection with pirating a game. A stolen book cannot be sold by the original owner. The original of a copied game can still be sold to someone else who might buy it.
But limiting my ability to use a product I have legitimately purchased because you think I might pirate it? If you think that is okay and want to equate copyright infringement with theft (and I'll play along for just a sec) how about this.
Would you be okay with having a police officer assigned to you who goes everywhere and never lets you out of his sight because, you know, you MIGHT steal or perform some other unlawful act? It's the latest service offered. It will enhance your life experience, too. Oh, and you get to pay them to do this.
Look at Steam -- this service has been running for years and I can only think of one or two times that it same down and prevented me from using my content.
Steam will never prevent you from using 99.9% of it's games, even if
you have no connection. Steam has an offline mode that almost all
games can run in.
Steam will never prevent you from using 99.9% of it's games, even if
you have no connection. Steam has an offline mode that almost all
games can run in.
This is true; I suspect the times I "remember" not being able to play a game is because the game had not been update, or offline mode had not been activated.
This is one of the things the upsets me THE MOST. If you have no problem being treated like a pirate out of the gate, good for you. By all means buy the game and I won't badmouth you a bit. But please don't insult me with insinuations that because I am standing up for something that I must just want to pirate games.
I have paid for every single PC game I have ever owned. I think piracy is wrong. But only a little Googling will show that DRM does more to inconvenience paying customers than it does to stop piracy or even slow it down. Several of the most heavily DRM laden games were on the torrent sites BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN RELEASED. So yes, I get a little PO'd when I am treated with suspicion and my ability to enjoy what I have legitimately purchased is hindered by something that really is ineffective at what it is 'supposed' to do.
I am not a pirate. I am a customer. Pirates don't buy games, customers do. Stop treating me like a pirate.
Piracy is copyright infringement, not theft. There are volumes of laws written to cover copyright infringement and that is what you are charged with if you are caught doing it, not theft. Theft involves the loss of a tangible good, copyright infringement does not. So stealing physical books has no connection with pirating a game. A stolen book cannot be sold by the original owner. The original of a copied game can still be sold to someone else who might buy it.
But limiting my ability to use a product I have legitimately purchased because you think I might pirate it? If you think that is okay and want to equate copyright infringement with theft (and I'll play along for just a sec) how about this.
Would you be okay with having a police officer assigned to you who goes everywhere and never lets you out of his sight because, you know, you MIGHT steal or perform some other unlawful act? It's the latest service offered. It will enhance your life experience, too. Oh, and you get to pay them to do this.
Good one, a real good one :)
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 01:12 PM
Customers dignity aside:
OLC would you say the same things - if you were citisen of some outskirt of east-european town - with ADSL that drops 5-7 times per day... i.e. being black-listed by Ubi as not European enough ?
:hmmm:
I wouldn't be bitching. I'm currently "blacklisted" by Aston Martin as not rich enough to own one of their cars. I don't complain about it, even though I'd like one.
On second thoughts maybe I would bitch, just to vent my frustration. Doesn't mean I'd have a valid point. Just means I'd be pissed at not being able to have something I want.
By the way, I used to live alone in an area that had ****ty internet. I moved house for the sole purpose of obtaining a good internet connection. That was years ago.
GREY WOLF 3
02-16-10, 01:15 PM
Watcha got against our postal service?
/postal engineer
/postal engineer :nope::nope:
Its crap.
GREY WOLF 3
02-16-10, 01:16 PM
Watcha got against our postal service?
/postal engineer
/postal engineer :nope::nope:
Its crap. ill say no more:zzz:
Webster
02-16-10, 01:21 PM
This just in... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_broadband_data
By JOELLE TESSLER, AP Technology Writer Joelle Tessler, Ap Technology Writer – 57 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Roughly 40 percent of Americans do not have high-speed Internet access at home, according to new Commerce Department figures that underscore the challenges facing policymakers who are trying to bring affordable broadband connections to everyone.
but UBI refuses to see the truth because as this shows, a simple data search (hint to UBI executives, try using google) it would show their customers arent able to use the system they propose.
You know, I am a jurist and work with laws for a living ... but when legal matters arise in what is supposed to be my hobby, something is utterly wrong and smelling rotten :nope:
I wouldn't be bitching. I'm currently "blacklisted" by Aston Martin as not rich enough to own one of their cars. I don't complain about it, even though I'd like one.
:o And you complained about my analogies!
Wulfmann
02-16-10, 01:47 PM
Excuse my ignorance but I have been away from SH5 watching after about the first week.
I do not know about DRM.
My game PC is not connected to the internet and my email PC can not play high end games and I am on dial up.
So, if it is required I be online to play SH5 I will not be buying it. If it requires broadband to play SH5 I will also not be buying it
For those that think it is an excuse please know I do not pirate games. I play very few games and I gladly purchase them to support future repeats.
If what I am reading is true one can not play SH5 unless one is online all the time one plays. Dial up will cut me off in a mission son unless UBI is providing broadband at their expense they are in affect telling me they don't want my money
Please tell me this is inaccurate.
Wulfmann
Adriatico
02-16-10, 01:49 PM
OLC, as you would say - analogy is not appropriate. (A.M.)
We were all the same bunch of fanatics usinig and moding SH series.
And then Ubi cames along with knife...
Barking at Aston Martin is bitching.
After years of Subsim membership I feel just normal to reply to posts and express the feelings.
If You have bought two times Aston Martin cars (driving for a years...) and supporting the brand on web... you would have every right to start complaining: if you have to start and park your car "online" for the next model.
Excuse my ignorance but I have been away from SH5 watching after about the first week.
I do not know about DRM.
My game PC is not connected to the internet and my email PC can not play high end games and I am on dial up.
So, if it is required I be online to play SH5 I will not be buying it. If it requires broadband to play SH5 I will also not be buying it
For those that think it is an excuse please know I do not pirate games. I play very few games and I gladly purchase them to support future repeats.
If what I am reading is true one can not play SH5 unless one is online all the time one plays. Dial up will cut me off in a mission son unless UBI is providing broadband at their expense they are in affect telling me they don't want my money
Please tell me this is inaccurate.
Wulfmann
To play Silent Hunter 5 you will need a minimum DSL connection (768kbps), active all the time. If the connection fails, your game will end.
If this irks you, contact Ubisoft and voice your concerns.
Adriatico
02-16-10, 02:05 PM
By the way, don't you think that min. of civilised approach by Ubi would be specification of needed "outgoing" and "incoming" speed of connection - at official site ?
...or specification of FAQ ?
( ...instead of bull****t on WW2 battleships - who would guess that Bismarck participated at Atlantic? )
By the way, don't you think that min. of civilised approach by Ubi would be specification of needed "outgoing" and "incoming" speed of connection - at official site ?
...or specification of FAQ ?
( ...instead of bull****t on WW2 battleships - who would guess that Bismarck participated at Atlantic? )
They did, in a way. ADSL is 56kbps up, 768kbps down (peak ratings).
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 02:14 PM
This is one of the things the upsets me THE MOST. If you have no problem being treated like a pirate out of the gate, good for you. By all means buy the game and I won't badmouth you a bit. But please don't insult me with insinuations that because I am standing up for something that I must just want to pirate games.
I have paid for every single PC game I have ever owned. I think piracy is wrong. But only a little Googling will show that DRM does more to inconvenience paying customers than it does to stop piracy or even slow it down. Several of the most heavily DRM laden games were on the torrent sites BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN RELEASED. So yes, I get a little PO'd when I am treated with suspicion and my ability to enjoy what I have legitimately purchased is hindered by something that really is ineffective at what it is 'supposed' to do.
I am not a pirate. I am a customer. Pirates don't buy games, customers do. Stop treating me like a pirate.
Piracy is copyright infringement, not theft. There are volumes of laws written to cover copyright infringement and that is what you are charged with if you are caught doing it, not theft. Theft involves the loss of a tangible good, copyright infringement does not. So stealing physical books has no connection with pirating a game. A stolen book cannot be sold by the original owner. The original of a copied game can still be sold to someone else who might buy it.
But limiting my ability to use a product I have legitimately purchased because you think I might pirate it? If you think that is okay and want to equate copyright infringement with theft (and I'll play along for just a sec) how about this.
Would you be okay with having a police officer assigned to you who goes everywhere and never lets you out of his sight because, you know, you MIGHT steal or perform some other unlawful act? It's the latest service offered. It will enhance your life experience, too. Oh, and you get to pay them to do this.
:yeah: Well put!
Heretic
02-16-10, 02:15 PM
Yup, OLC is right.
If you buy anything in the UK and have any reason not to be happy with
it, you can return it for a refund; whatever the end user agreement is.
Ha! That's what you get for living in a socialist hellhole! Here in the States, we recognize the God-given right of Corporations to screw over their customers any way they can. Best government money can buy. :yeah:
609_Avatar
02-16-10, 02:16 PM
:o And you complained about my analogies!
Touche! :D
scrapser
02-16-10, 02:17 PM
Just wanted to throw this in. Bioshock 2 is out and many are very disappointed because you can't even save your game unless you are online! That's right, if you play the game for hours and cannot save your progress because of a bad Internet connection you're SOL. Brilliant!
I really hope this trend dies a quick death.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 02:29 PM
Boh Wulfmann in da houz
:yeah:
Nice to see ya Wulfmann!
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 02:31 PM
:o And you complained about my analogies!
OLC, as you would say - analogy is not appropriate. (A.M.)
I didn't just say your analogies were broken, I pointed out exactly where and why they are broken. Something tells me you two will have trouble doing the same with mine. :O:
Barking at Aston Martin is bitching.
You'll notice I was making a point out of the fact that I am not barking or bitching at Aston Martin. :03: Still, if you have poor internet then I can understand you being upset and venting that frustration. I'm a bit tired of the rhetoric and broken analogies and claims of "wrong doing" but I do sympathise with those who just won't be able to play the game due to circumstances beyond their control.
onelifecrisis
02-16-10, 02:33 PM
Ha! That's what you get for living in a socialist hellhole! Here in the States, we recognize the God-give right of Corporations to screw over their customers any way they can. Best government money can buy. :yeah:
:rotfl2:
:)
Radioshow
02-16-10, 02:34 PM
Don't forget about all the people with high speed connections but very limited bandwidth. Most people I know have 5-25GB limits and that's all they can afford or are offered in the plan(mine is 90GB, $60 mo.). Most of my Aussie clan mates go through their limit in less than a month.
How do you play SH5 now with your dial up or equivalent connection?
No bandwidth=no game. And this is a single player game.
I live in Canada where almost everywhere you can get good internet. My Bell DSL is fast and never down yet. But..... The majority of people online here are using cheaper plans with limited bandwidth due to cost.
It's not hard to use up alot of bandwidth these days.
Again its not having to connect that is the problem, its being connected the WHOLE time and the consequences of that. Put in an offline mode and that should be sufficient. I am not prepared to trust UBI servers yet.
You cannot compare WOW servers to UBI. Apples and Oranges. UBI has a history of bad servers and worse customer support and not much experience.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 02:35 PM
Control...
thats part of it.
Ubisoft KEEPS control. they shut down the service, yer screwed.
and that puts everyone who bought it in the "bent down, looking for the soap" position i recon.
and dont tell me that wont happen sooner or later...:nope:
poor souls, those who still buy it without being able to go offline...
Elder-Pirate
02-16-10, 02:35 PM
Hi there,
im realy suprised that so many people are upset. For myself, i already preordered silent hunter 5. Why should i cancel my preorder because of this DRM? I will open the game, install it and than play right away, my router is connected 24/7 anway and i think about 90% of all people have a permament connection too.
So, where is the drawback? i buy this game to have fun, because i love submarine games and i am able to play it...thats the only thing i want.
Only problem that i could see is that to many people are buying it and that the server will crash because of it.
i would say after 2-3 days the server will run 100% stable.
i just hope that we are able to chat in some global chat...because all people are connected to Ubi anyway...wouldnt this rock?! Chat with other people while you are sailing around! brag about your newest kill! :D
i also think that this copy proctection is a good way to go, its virtually not crackable, because the game needs an active connection to a server to work
Edit: And no, i dont work for Ubisoft lol :haha:
You sure like being led by the ring in your nose don't you.:hmmm:
This is one of the things the upsets me THE MOST. If you have no problem being treated like a pirate out of the gate, good for you. By all means buy the game and I won't badmouth you a bit. But please don't insult me with insinuations that because I am standing up for something that I must just want to pirate games.
I have paid for every single PC game I have ever owned. I think piracy is wrong. But only a little Googling will show that DRM does more to inconvenience paying customers than it does to stop piracy or even slow it down. Several of the most heavily DRM laden games were on the torrent sites BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN RELEASED. So yes, I get a little PO'd when I am treated with suspicion and my ability to enjoy what I have legitimately purchased is hindered by something that really is ineffective at what it is 'supposed' to do.
I am not a pirate. I am a customer. Pirates don't buy games, customers do. Stop treating me like a pirate.
Piracy is copyright infringement, not theft. There are volumes of laws written to cover copyright infringement and that is what you are charged with if you are caught doing it, not theft. Theft involves the loss of a tangible good, copyright infringement does not. So stealing physical books has no connection with pirating a game. A stolen book cannot be sold by the original owner. The original of a copied game can still be sold to someone else who might buy it.
But limiting my ability to use a product I have legitimately purchased because you think I might pirate it? If you think that is okay and want to equate copyright infringement with theft (and I'll play along for just a sec) how about this.
Would you be okay with having a police officer assigned to you who goes everywhere and never lets you out of his sight because, you know, you MIGHT steal or perform some other unlawful act? It's the latest service offered. It will enhance your life experience, too. Oh, and you get to pay them to do this.
There is, of course, a counter-argument to this. The point of view from EA is that they are trying to protect their investment. What gives you the right to demand that they shouldn't protect their product in a way they deem fit?
The anti DRM argument, in a way, is similar to asking a bank to leave the vault open for your convenience, because "you are not a thief". Frankly, they know this -- the DRM isn't here to offend you, or treat you like anything. Nor is the bank vault there because they want to treat you like a thief. The reality is, however, that thieves do exist, and they wish to protect their interests, and investments.
Part of this, perhaps, is not understanding the scope of piracy in the gaming industry. To demonstrate, I have some articles below. The first is a non-official survey of game downloads in 2009:
http://kotaku.com/5435876/report-the-most-pirated-games-of-2009
MW2 had 4 million downloads. As they note, each doesn't necessarily represent a unique download, or a lost sale, but it is interesting to note. The Sims 3 has just over 3 million downloads.
Here we can see sales of MW2 on the PC in November, at about 300,000 copies, an estimated toal including Steam sales. Let's assume that in December it sold another 300k copies (very unlikely). So, 600k copies sold total.
http://kotaku.com/5426474/report-modern-warfare-2-pc-us-retail-sales-about-170000-in-november
As you can see, the game may have been pirated sixfold over purchases -- a massive difference. Even if only 1/8th of all potential downloads were actual lost sales, this still means only half of potential sales were made; a big difference for an industry with high development costs.
The Sims 3 may be a better example as the game was only released on PC.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/thesims3/news.html?sid=6246870&om_act=convert&om_clk=newsfeatures&tag=newsfeatures;title;2
From this, we can see that through Jan of this year, 4.5 million copies sold -- not bad at all. However, there were 3 million potentially pirated copies; if even a quarter of those potential downloads were lost sales, you're looking at pushing sales over 5 million copies, or forty-million dollars (assuming $60/unit, 700k units).
I'm not a big fan of DRM either. I buy all my music from Amazon or Beatport, because those sites sell with no DRM. I use Good Old Games because they offer great support with no DRM as well (<3 IL-2). But, you need to realize that even 200k lost sales due to piracy at $60 a unit is still a whopping twelve million dollar loss.
If the PC industry can't control piracy, it will die. The cost of developing for PC, along with a comparably low playerbase makes development a rather lousy business venture. It is possible that this move, requiring online verification, will curb piracy by a reasonable amount. PC piracy is easy compared to consoles, and this shows in the data above -- MW2 was potentially pirated on XB360 1/4 as much as PC, despite the fact that consoles are a more popular means to play those games. They need to make PC piracy hard enough to strongly discourage it among the general population, and to make PC game development a reasonable venture.
Heretic
02-16-10, 02:43 PM
How is having an unreliable internet connection any different from not meeting the minimum system requirements? If you buy a game that plainly says you need a Wazoo 3000 video card or better to play when you only have the Whizbang 50, do you rant and rave and demand the company reduce the system requirements?
Other DRM issues aside, if the system requirements say you need a constant internet connection and you don't have that, you don't meet the system requirements.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 02:44 PM
so you basically think this is going to work?
They can protect all they want...
but if their product always depends on their goodwill to work, is that still "protection"?
Hell no...
so you basically think this is going to work?
They can protect all they want...
but if their product always depends on their goodwill to work, is that stilml protection?
Hell no...
The servers will work; this is a silly concern. As I said earlier, it's not a problem with Steam (people had the same worry!) and it won't be here.
They're also not going to just "shut down" the servers to shaft everyone. If they do, you can jump on the class action, but don't bet on it. There is no logical reason for them to just "turn off" the servers and give everyone the finger. None. It won't happen.
I said it before and Ill say it again.
Im not worried about the DRM for myself, I have a stable BB connection in a capital city, so long as UBI servers live up to the job - I will be fine with SHV.
Problem is that alienates those that dont have a solid connection, or those who are always on the go. The constant 'chain' is a drastic one and its pretty stupid since its bound to get cracked and give the pirates a more user freindly product in the end.
Those with connectivity issues have a choice.
1) Dont by the game
2) Crack the game
Its a lose/lose situation for the Publisher.
A very stupid idea.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 02:54 PM
need proof. hardcore proof.
i work 12 hours for a living, as do many others, and my butt is sore from being screwed by Big D Companies.
F'n Beancounters, all of 'em.
I said it before and Ill say it again.
Im not worried about the DRM for myself, I have a stable BB connection in a capital city, so long as UBI servers live up to the job - I will be fine with SHV.
Problem is that alienates those that dont have a solid connection, or those who are always on the go. The constant 'chain' is a drastic one and its pretty stupid since its bound to get cracked and give the pirates a more user freindly product in the end.
Those with connectivity issues have a choice.
1) Dont by the game
2) Crack the game
Its a lose/lose situation for the Publisher.
A very stupid idea.
I am in the same comfy situation with JU88. I also agree with his reasoning. Besides, Ubi is in a precarious financial situation. They could go under and rag all the dogs on their leashes. Matter of fact this very DRM might be Ubi's undoing.
Yes, using DRM is a very stupid idea for both seller and buyer.
Just wanted to throw this in. Bioshock 2 is out and many are very disappointed because you can't even save your game unless you are online! That's right, if you play the game for hours and cannot save your progress because of a bad Internet connection you're SOL. Brilliant!
I really hope this trend dies a quick death.
Create an offline account, problem solved.
mookiemookie
02-16-10, 03:14 PM
There is no logical reason for them to just "turn off" the servers and give everyone the finger. None. It won't happen.
Bull.
The cost of running a server forever and ever is actually infinity dollars. Do you think anyone would want to still be running servers for the original Populous? Companies go out of business. Especially companies who go on running servers for games that stopped making money years earlier.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7134-Experienced-Points-Activation-Bomb
BarjackU977
02-16-10, 03:17 PM
No. The fight against piracy is pushing DRM schemes too far. I refuse to depend on online profiles for SP games. It's not only about Internet connection issues, but also about dependency on something remote to play a purchased SP game locally.
One possibility is a mixed option,
with login first and continuos connection, in case of disconnect the game will continue playing but with a visible sign in the screen with the words "Internet connection lost" so ilegitimate users have to deal with the constant caption in the screen while registered users not, only in ping timeout periods. :hmmm:
There is no logical reason for them to just "turn off" the servers and give everyone the finger.
If they shut down the SH5 servers, and leave the SH6 servers running, then you won't be able to play SH5, but you will be able to purchase and play SH6.
That sounds like a logical reason to me.
Pure speculation, but logical.
I didn't just say your analogies were broken, I pointed out exactly where and why they are broken. Something tells me you two will have trouble doing the same with mine.
Firstly, I do not think you have shown my analogy to be broken for the
reasons in my posts above.
Secondly, I am quit happy to draw you a picture if you like.
You imply (HERE (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1269666&postcount=56)) that not having reliable broadband in your part of the
country preventing you from playing a game is no more unfair than not
having lots of money prevents you from buying an expensive car.
This is not the case because whilst you (arguably) are responsible for your level of income being less than that required to buy a car, it does
not make sense to claim that someone is responsible, in any way, for
the quality of the telephone exchanges in their locality.
You (arguably) have no one to blame, but your self if you can't get the
money for a car. It is your responsibility to provide funds if you wish
to purchase a car and so it is not unfair that you can't buy one if you
can not provide funds. Any disadvantage if your fault.
The state of your region's telephone services is to blame if you don't
have a steady broadband service. The state of your region's telephone
services is not your responsibility; it is something you can not control.
If you connection is worse than other peoples and this causes you
disadvantage; this is unfair. The disadvantage is not your fault.
Whilst it could be argued that it is your fault that you don't have the
funds to buy a satellite connection, the situation is no less unfair on you
as such measures would cost more through no fault of your own.
If they shut down the SH5 servers, and leave the SH6 servers running, then you won't be able to play SH5, but you will be able to purchase and play SH6.
That sounds like a logical reason to me.
Pure speculation, but logical.
Servers don't work like that. This isn't like shutting down multiplayer servers. This is just a verification server -- your game phones home, says "verify me" and the server says "yes" or "no". It will be one big server for all games, and no game will generate enough load to cause a problem.
I could see them perhaps taking away some "bonus features" such as savegame backups, but game activation won't just stop -- and if it does, they'll either patch the game so it needs no activation, or get a class action suit. Again, pointing to Steam: Half Life 1 not only works, but is still for sale. People buy that crap.
Seaman_Hornsby
02-16-10, 03:34 PM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7134-Experienced-Points-Activation-Bomb
Good article. :up:
Servers don't world like that. This isn't like shutting down multiplayer servers. This is just a verification server -- your game phones home, says "verify me" and the server says "yes" or "no". It will be one big server for all games, and no game will generate enough load to cause a problem.
So, you have inside knowledge of how the verification service will work?
Servers work however they're programed to work. For the simple act of verification, the game needs to tell the server what it is, and what particular instance it is. Otherwise, there is no verification. I can think of several ways to block SH5, and not other games. Block ID numbers in range X through Y. Or simply block product ID Z.
The server also needs to know who is running it. Notice the need for an Ubisoft account. If you tick off someone at Ubi, and your account accidentally gets deleted, what then?
I could see them perhaps taking away some "bonus features" such as savegame backups, but game activation won't just stop -- and if it does, they'll either patch the game so it needs no activation, or get a class action suit. Again, pointing to Steam: Half Life 1 not only works, but is still for sale. People buy that crap.
They promise they'll patch the game to remove the verification. I'll promise to give you $1000 in a year, if you send me $50 now.
As for Steam and Half Life 1, I couldn't speak to that. That doesn't seem to have any bearing on this issue.
Gunnodayak
02-16-10, 03:43 PM
I'll promise to give you $1000 in a year, if you send me $50 now.
OK, if the offer is available to everyone, please send me your bank account number or your address. :)
OK, if the offer is available to everyone, please send me your bank account number or your address. :)
Cash only. In small bills.
Think about it like this:
If everybody judges it on such a stupid thing the less of a delivery time!
To the OP,
DRM/OSP is bad because even though we bought the game, we still need Ubi's permission everytime we want to play it. There's just something fundamentally wrong with that.
Nordmann
02-16-10, 03:47 PM
No. The fight against piracy is pushing DRM schemes too far. I refuse to depend on online profiles for SP games. It's not only about Internet connection issues, but also about dependency on something remote to play a purchased SP game locally.
Simple and to the point, I like it. Sums the whole issue up quite nicely. Honestly, who wants a single-player game which forces you to use a net connection? It's just damned silly, however you try to justify it.
Seafireliv
02-16-10, 03:47 PM
How is having an unreliable internet connection any different from not meeting the minimum system requirements? If you buy a game that plainly says you need a Wazoo 3000 video card or better to play when you only have the Whizbang 50, do you rant and rave and demand the company reduce the system requirements?
Other DRM issues aside, if the system requirements say you need a constant internet connection and you don't have that, you don't meet the system requirements.
Sometimes I really wonder where these people get their logic from.
A PC system requirement to run a game is what`s necessarry to run the game. You often get a Minimum and optimum spec to help most everyone play the game.
It is NOT necessary to be online 24\7. UBI have just FORCED it on us. If UBI were fair they would have a Minimum spec of `No Online` mode.
Sailor Steve
02-16-10, 03:49 PM
WELCOME ABOARD, Darkreaver1980!:sunny:
Your original post is quite good, and TDK1044's reply is also valid. There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't enjoy the game their way.
And that is the complaint of most of the rest of us. We can't enjoy the game our way. OneLifeCrisis makes light of the 'principles' concept, but principles are important. If I want to buy a game and play it, I object to being told when I can play it (any potential problems), where I can play it (laptop on the road), or how I can play it (disconnected if that suits me).
I won't be told how I have to play by anyone.
Nordmann
02-16-10, 03:52 PM
How is having an unreliable internet connection any different from not meeting the minimum system requirements? If you buy a game that plainly says you need a Wazoo 3000 video card or better to play when you only have the Whizbang 50, do you rant and rave and demand the company reduce the system requirements?
Other DRM issues aside, if the system requirements say you need a constant internet connection and you don't have that, you don't meet the system requirements.
It's not the lack of a net connection, it's the fact that one should not be required in the first place. Hell, it wouldn't be as bad if it did one check on launch, then left you alone. If your net goes down while the game is running, it's no big deal unless you exit the game, but the way they have gone about it, even the slightest hiccup will pause the game and ruin your day. Great stuff Ubi!
Hi Steve!
Or a someone calls you Stewe :D
It is good that you keep our tradition of welcoming new-commers. We have had such an influx of new blood that the tradition has faltered lately. My apologies to our new comrades. :salute::salute::salute::salute:
I can think of several ways to block SH5, and not other games. Block ID numbers in range X through Y. Or simply block product ID Z.
The server also needs to know who is running it. Notice the need for an Ubisoft account. If you tick off someone at Ubi, and your account accidentally gets deleted, what then?
I'm not saying these things cannot happen. I'm saying the likelihood is low. Can you provide an example of when a game company did this?
People can do lots of bad things. People can murder and steal. That said, it is not as if everyone does it.
Why do you treat Ubisoft of acting immoral when they haven't actually deactivated games/deleted accounts? Amusingly, you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Just as you don't want to be treated like a pirate for being an honest paying customer, maybe you should not treat them like they are dishonest without proof.
As for Steam and Half Life 1, I couldn't speak to that. That doesn't seem to have any bearing on this issue.
This is my example of a game company not doing what you are asserting that they "could" do. Half life 2 is out -- they didn't simply decide to stop activating Half Life 1 as a result. The same goes for Counterstrike 1.6, Team Fortress Classic, Half Life Deathmatch, or Left 4 Dead. Each of those games has a sequel, and each can be still be purchased and authenticated.
EDIT:
I'd also like to clarify something. I am actually quite miffed about the DRM issue (and DRM in general). I think it's abuse stems from publisher misunderstanding of the industry and it's userbase. I'm playing Devil's Advocate because it's fun; and because understanding their point of view is as critical to the issue as understanding our own. Some people here have some really good arguments against DRM; some have less logically-designed arguments. Hopefully by challenging both of those arguments we can come to a greater understanding of the situation, and make this clear to Ubisoft in an eloquent, logical fashion. Emotion will not win the day for us in this battle, or looking through the periscope.
Nisgeis
02-16-10, 03:57 PM
How is having an unreliable internet connection any different from not meeting the minimum system requirements? If you buy a game that plainly says you need a Wazoo 3000 video card or better to play when you only have the Whizbang 50, do you rant and rave and demand the company reduce the system requirements?
Other DRM issues aside, if the system requirements say you need a constant internet connection and you don't have that, you don't meet the system requirements.
Well, let's say that you WANT to play the game, so you check the requirements. Ah! A Wazoo 3000, no problem, I'll get one of those. So you ring up the hardware supplier and they say 'Oh no, we don't supply Wazoo 3000 cards to where you live, as there's not enough demand and the trucks would get all dirty travelling over there as you live a long way from the city.' So you REALLY insist that you absolutely must have a Wazoo 3000 card and they say 'Oh OK then, we'll deliver a Wazoo 3000 card to you, but it will cost $25,000 just because you live quite a way from the city and the truck will get all muddy and cleaning the spokes is quite fiddly.'
At this point you're quite concerned, so you ask 'What exactly is a Wazoo 3000 card and what does it do for the game?' . 'Oh,' they say, 'it lets you save your game. The game uses it like a hard disk basically.'. 'But I have a hard disk already'. 'Yeah but you need a Wazoo 3000 as well, to do the same thing.'
That's the basic difference - You need a graphics card, to do the graphics. If your graphics card was faulty or intermittant, you'd get one that did work all the time. The basic problem here is some people cannot get a 100% reliable internet connection, yet still want to play the game. They can't though. Not being able to afford the hardware minimum requirements is a completely different issue to not being able to get the minimum requirements for reason that are outside of your control. Well, OK, not entirely outside of your control. You could always sell your house and move... but just to play SH5? That would be strange.
I can see that a lot of the people arguing for oppressive DRM are saying 'I'm alright', so I guess some people are lacking in empathy.
I myself have a connection that, as far as I know, is usually up. I don't think playing SH5 will be a problem for me. It does not stop me however saying that the DRM system in use is very unfair to those that want to play, but won't be able to and I don't see it as being in Ubi's interests to limit the people that can legitimately play.
I guess we'll truly see if this style of DRM has completely failed, if the number of pirated versions of Ubisoft's titles to legitimate versions increases. Yes, it will be pirated.
Skullcowboy
02-16-10, 03:59 PM
There is, of course, a counter-argument to this. The point of view from EA is that they are trying to protect their investment. What gives you the right to demand that they shouldn't protect their product in a way they deem fit?
Nope. Not saying that at all. They have the right to protect their product in any way they want. But I have the right to not buy that product if I find their 'protections' to be a hindrance to my legitimate use of that product. I'll also let them know why. Please don't accuse me of just wanting to pirate it when I do so.
The anti DRM argument, in a way, is similar to asking a bank to leave the vault open for your convenience, because "you are not a thief". Frankly, they know this -- the DRM isn't here to offend you, or treat you like anything. Nor is the bank vault there because they want to treat you like a thief. The reality is, however, that thieves do exist, and they wish to protect their interests, and investments.
Not really similar. Money is a tangible good. If it is stolen, that money is gone for the original owner. A copy of the original of a piece of software does not stop the original owner from selling that original.
But what if, after getting the money from the teller and going to spend it somewhere else, you had to wait for someone from the bank to come to where you were to verify that that was your money and it was real?
Part of this, perhaps, is not understanding the scope of piracy in the gaming industry.
<snipped for space, refer to original and there is some good links and info there for those who want to read it>
I'm not a big fan of DRM either. I buy all my music from Amazon or Beatport, because those sites sell with no DRM. I use Good Old Games because they offer great support with no DRM as well (<3 IL-2). But, you need to realize that even 200k lost sales due to piracy at $60 a unit is still a whopping twelve million dollar loss.
The talk about loss of revenue only really works if you believe, as the industry would have you believe, that each pirated download=1 lost sale.
It just doesn't work that way. There is no way to prove that everyone who pirated a copy would have bought it if they couldn't get it any other way. It also fails to take into account the number of people who use downloads as demo's and if they like it they actually buy the game. This happens more than you think.
If the PC industry can't control piracy, it will die. The cost of developing for PC, along with a comparably low playerbase makes development a rather lousy business venture. It is possible that this move, requiring online verification, will curb piracy by a reasonable amount. PC piracy is easy compared to consoles, and this shows in the data above -- MW2 was potentially pirated on XB360 1/4 as much as PC, despite the fact that consoles are a more popular means to play those games. They need to make PC piracy hard enough to strongly discourage it among the general population, and to make PC game development a reasonable venture.
Again, that's what the industry likes to trumpet and I don't buy it. Piracy is not what is killing PC games. Making crappy, unfinished and unsupported games is hurting the industry far worse. Stardock is a great example. Minimal (and sometimes no) DRM. And they SELL a LOT of copies. Because they make good games AND they cater to customers, not pirates.
Yet EA's Spore, despite heavy DRM, was one of the most pirated games in history. The only people inconvenienced were the legitimate customers (and there were problems, check EA's forums).
It still sold over a million copies on the PC alone. I didn't like it but hey...
I have no problem with a onetime online activation. I don't mind disk checks or serial numbers. Or even codewheels or some of the other silly things that have been tried. Because with these things, as long as I keep all the original stuff (and trust me, I do. Just ask my wife...) I can use that product at my leisure for as long as I take care of it. But persistent internet connection for single player games? Remote storage of my saves? Limited number of installs? Rootkits and spyware? Trusting a company (that makes no bones about not trusting me) to keep servers online or patch it when they don't so that I can play that game 5 years from now? 10 years from now? You mentioned IL2, I still play that. Could you today if UBI thought up it's new form of control way back then?
Skullcowboy
02-16-10, 04:07 PM
WELCOME ABOARD, Darkreaver1980!:sunny:
Your original post is quite good, and TDK1044's reply is also valid. There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't enjoy the game their way.
And that is the complaint of most of the rest of us. We can't enjoy the game our way. OneLifeCrisis makes light of the 'principles' concept, but principles are important. If I want to buy a game and play it, I object to being told when I can play it (any potential problems), where I can play it (laptop on the road), or how I can play it (disconnected if that suits me).
I won't be told how I have to play by anyone.
+1 :up:
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:09 PM
You mentioned IL2, I still play that. Could you today if UBI thought up it's new form of control way back then?
A day begins with a Good stall-n-spin in a P-39. better than coffee.
IL-2 1946 4.09m with DRM... YUCK!
would be a major fail...
Let's say that someone purchases Silent Hunter 5, and because of his personal availability, he can only actually play the game between the hours of 6PM and 8PM on Saturdays and Sundays.
Because those days are the busiest in terms of server access, every time he tries to log on and play the game during that window, he is denied access.
He has therefore spent $49 on a game that he can't play. He can't get his money back on the game, because nobody offers a refund for computer software/video games, and he can't change his availability in order to try and access the servers at a different time.
In the pre DRM era he would have had no problem, but now he has a $49 coaster and no access to a game he wants to play.
Does he have a legal claim against Ubisoft? I wonder what kind of disclaimer will be written in the mice type on the box?
How would the server only be available on Saturdays and Sundays?
Not really similar. Money is a tangible good. If it is stolen, that money is gone for the original owner. A copy of the original of a piece of software does not stop the original owner from selling that original.
A copy, however, may stop someone from buying it. I agree that is is not an exact correlate, but we can't ignore the fact that piracy could stop a sale.
But what if, after getting the money from the teller and going to spend it somewhere else, you had to wait for someone from the bank to come to where you were to verify that that was your money and it was real?
You must not be an American, because we have the IRS to do that for us :DL
The talk about loss of revenue only really works if you believe, as the industry would have you believe, that each pirated download=1 lost sale.
It just doesn't work that way. There is no way to prove that everyone who pirated a copy would have bought it if they couldn't get it any other way. It also fails to take into account the number of people who use downloads as demo's and if they like it they actually buy the game. This happens more than you think.
This is something I agree on -- however, if you refer to my post, I make calculations using fractions of those numbers. I agree that it is irrational to look at 4 million downloads and assume that equals 4 million lost sales. That said, it is similarly possible that some of those do represent lost sales. I used 1/8th and 1/4th to recognize that in my estimates, so I am asserting that less than half, even, are lost sales. We don't have fair numbers, though, so I suppose it's moot?
Again, that's what the industry likes to trumpet and I don't buy it. Piracy is not what is killing PC games. Making crappy, unfinished and unsupported games is hurting the industry far worse. Stardock is a great example. Minimal (and sometimes no) DRM. And they SELL a LOT of copies. Because they make good games AND they cater to customers, not pirates.
Yet EA's Spore, despite heavy DRM, was one of the most pirated games in history. The only people inconvenienced were the legitimate customers (and there were problems, check EA's forums).
It still sold over a million copies on the PC alone. I didn't like it but hey...
I agree with both of these points. I do not own any Stardock games, but my friend does, and loves them for their stance on DRM. Spore was a massive disappointment for me, with multiple reasons. I suspect my problem, though, is that even if it's not an issue (though we're lacking definitive evidence), it is still a deterrent for publishers. Consider the music industry -- evidence has shown that DRM decreases purchases and P2P increases them, and yet the RIAA continues to piss and moan.
I don't think piracy is the only factor, but I also don't think it's a nonfactor. It fits into the equation, and until we can get that under control, I fear big publishers are just going to be too damn scared to make any moves in the PC world; such that the industry will stagnate.
Nisgeis
02-16-10, 04:15 PM
The talk about loss of revenue only really works if you believe, as the industry would have you believe, that each pirated download=1 lost sale.
Also, revenue lost is misleading as it is not the amount of money the developer would have lost in profit, which is a much smaller amount, as revenue is before costs are deducted and doesn't take into account the large slices that each company down the chain takes. If a game is pirated, then Software Company X will say it cost them $40 in lost revenue, as that's the box price, but that doesn't mean to say they are $40 out of pocket.
It's equally as misleading to say that the pirates have 'saved' the distributor millions of dollars in distribution costs, as they didn't have to ship the physical products, or burden their download servers.
Avatar just became the biggest grossing film of all time, yet the internet is killing the film industry. Just goes to show that if you give the public what they want, they will buy it and lots of it. Games companies are always trying to shave costs and release buggy or incomplete products, sometimes making them unplayable out of the box. Maybe piracy is the symptom, not the disease?
I'm not saying these things cannot happen. I'm saying the likelihood is low. Can you provide an example of when a game company did this?
No, I was just responding to you. You said:
There is no logical reason for them to just "turn off" the servers and give everyone the finger.
I gave a logical reason. I never said it was likely, or they were going to, or anything like that. Just that it was a logical reason. Your response was that it wasn't possible, because it doesn't work that way. My response was there are several ways to do it.
Why do you treat Ubisoft of acting immoral when they haven't actually deactivated games/deleted accounts? Amusingly, you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Just as you don't want to be treated like a pirate for being an honest paying customer, maybe you should not treat them like they are dishonest without proof.
I have not accused them of doing anything of the sort. I simply said, truthfully, that they could. And if they did, we'd have no recourse. I don't like them having that power over my time and computer. I play when, where, and how I want.
This is my example of a game company not doing what you are asserting that they "could" do. Half life 2 is out -- they didn't simply decide to stop activating Half Life 1 as a result. The same goes for Counterstrike 1.6, Team Fortress Classic, Half Life Deathmatch, or Left 4 Dead. Each of those games has a sequel, and each can be still be purchased and authenticated.
Someone will be the first. Just because no one has done it, doesn't mean no one will. I'm not saying Ubisoft will be the first. I just don't like them having the power to do so. If we let them do this, what is the next guy going to do? How far into our lives and our computers do we let them? We have to draw a line somewhere. I take my stand here.
EDIT:
I'd also like to clarify something. I am actually quite miffed about the DRM issue (and DRM in general). I think it's abuse stems from publisher misunderstanding of the industry and it's userbase. I'm playing Devil's Advocate because it's fun; and because understanding their point of view is as critical to the issue as understanding our own. Some people here have some really good arguments against DRM; some have less logically-designed arguments. Hopefully by challenging both of those arguments we can come to a greater understanding of the situation, and make this clear to Ubisoft in an eloquent, logical fashion. Emotion will not win the day for us in this battle, or looking through the periscope.
Eh. Turning this into a logical discussion is a worthy effort, but you're still going to have people on both extremes.
WELCOME ABOARD, Darkreaver1980!
88 posts into the thread, multiple pages, and still a welcome to the OP. :salute:, sir!
I have planned to buy SHV the day it comes out.
But I have planed the shipping to be week later.
In that time I can see more gameplay vids and reviews.
In that time I can make a good decision.
And also what do you think the problem will be with DRM.
Heretic
02-16-10, 04:20 PM
Whoo-hoo! Now we can have another DRM thread!
Yes but I usually try to shut people up.
I'm not saying SHV will suck or the SHV dev team is a !@#$%^&*.
guynoir
02-16-10, 04:22 PM
Just to add fuel to the fire, EA will be shutting down the servers to the following games on March 16:
Def Jam for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Godfather for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Lord of the Rings: Conquest for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Mercenaries 2: World in Flames for PC
Need for Speed: Carbon for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed: ProStreet for PlayStation Portable
Simpsons for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
So, if you plan on playing multiplayer with your friends in these games... tough; EA thinks you should buy one of their newer, more popular games if you want to play with others. Oh, and some of the games aren't really that old. :hmmm:
Here's a list off all of the multiplayer servers they've shut down so far:
http://www.ea.com/2/service-updates
Access to multiplayer servers for a game isn't the same as access to the entire game, but it is access to half of the game!
This is the kind of crap we can expect when our access to a game is tied to a company's cost benefit analysis that determines whether it's still profitable to keep hosting a server for that game... in the end, it won't be.
Nisgeis
02-16-10, 04:22 PM
Ah, but this one has a poll. That's new right? Actually, it's a good idea to see what sort of state people's connections are actually in. Great idea!
EDIT: Did no one think of this before... how did it get missed?!
Does 'I don't have an internet connection' mean 'I don't have an always on /permanent connection.'?
DRM is nothing compare flooding interior etc :arrgh!:
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:25 PM
DRM of all sorts sucks! Its unnecessary as i am no pirate!
in before lock!
Thanks por telling all of us how you REALLY feel.
Seafireliv
02-16-10, 04:26 PM
I have planned to buy SHV the day it comes out.
But I have planed the shipping to be week later.
In that time I can see more gameplay vids and reviews.
In that time I can make a good decision.
And also what do you think the problem will be with DRM.
Well that made sense- not.
AVGWarhawk
02-16-10, 04:27 PM
What is DRM :hmmm:
Nisgeis
02-16-10, 04:27 PM
Come on, give the thread a chance to do what the poll says, let's see what sort of state people's internet connections are in. That does seem like a sensible idea.
Well that made sense- not.
While it's shipping people who already have it will make vids and reviews
FIREWALL
02-16-10, 04:33 PM
Why is it that some people here are so "thick" about DRM.
It's more a matter of Ubisofts servers crapping out or overloading and support.
That you don't really own the game is another topic.
If you don't have internet why would you buy it in the first place.
Why is it that some people here are so "thick" about DRM.
It's more a matter of Ubisofts servers crapping out or overloading and support.
That you don't really own the game is another topic.
If you don't have internet why would you buy it in the first place.
It's not whether you buy it, it's how you feel about it.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:35 PM
i find it funny how people that have "no connection" could have posted here, or voted.:D
i took it as "have bad connection", ISDN, or something crappy like that.
I didn't think about that:damn:
EDIT: "No connection" Take as "Really Bad"
SteamWake
02-16-10, 04:37 PM
hey cool a drm thread complaining about drm threads... woo hoo spam city ! :woot:
i find it funny how people that have "no connection" could have posted here, or voted.
Or posting from the library, or from school, or from work, or leaching wifi off of someone...
Adriatico
02-16-10, 04:38 PM
To measure customers dignity in kb/s... ?
I just want people to give SHV a chance.
Or posting from the library, or from school, or from work, or leaching wifi off of someone...
That counts as a connection:haha:
Bilge_Rat
02-16-10, 04:42 PM
you guys are grasping at straws at this point, i.e. if I understand the latest argument correctly, we should not buy SH5 because:
1. Ubisoft may go bankrupt in 5 years; and/or
2. Ubisoft may shut down the SH5 servers in 5 years.
All of these events may be true, but I could also be run over by a car/die in a plane crash/be killed by my ex-wife in 4 years and/or be playing SH6 in 3 years, so that is not a good argument why I should not play SH5 now.
Its a bit like saying don't go spend $100 at restaurant ABC tonight, because it may be bankrupt in 2015......:hmmm:
.....that may be true, but I am hungry now.
I think the better argument is to not buy SH5 out of principle...which I am all in favour of, since it means the servers will be less busy when I play......
:ahoy:
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:42 PM
By telling the whole board, - including me - to shut the **** up?
Dude get off the Board and do something meaningful. Kick the Cat maybe.
*Mad*:damn:
FIREWALL
02-16-10, 04:44 PM
I just want people to give SHV a chance.
Then buy the damn game and quit worrying what others are going to do.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:45 PM
hey They did SHIII in 2005... if they shut down the SHIII servers tonight (5 years later), i would go Raving mad and sue them best i can.
Whats mine is mine.
Skullcowboy
02-16-10, 04:45 PM
You must not be an American, because we have the IRS to do that for us :DL
Born and raised in the good old USA, currently residing in Texas. And I thought the IRS was there to take all my money BEFORE I could get any out of the bank... ;)
Consider the music industry -- evidence has shown that DRM decreases purchases and P2P increases them, and yet the RIAA continues to piss and moan.
+1 :up: The MPAA is right there with them for movies.
I don't think piracy is the only factor, but I also don't think it's a nonfactor. It fits into the equation, and until we can get that under control, I fear big publishers are just going to be too damn scared to make any moves in the PC world; such that the industry will stagnate.
Agreed, it is not a non-factor at all. However, if they put some of the time and money they spend on DRM (and it is not cheap!) into making better games and coming up with 'services' that customers really want instead of bugs and limitations they like to call features, they might sell more games. And lastly, don't say things like Electronic Arts CEO John Riccitiello said, in essence: Half of the people who protested Spore's digital rights management (DRM) were actually pirates and the other half were people caught up in something that they didn't understand.
So I am either a pirate or I am stupid.
I haven't bought an EA game since...
Then buy the damn game and quit worrying what others are going to do.
I know, it's just sad to see a game I'm so excited about being hated.
piri_reis
02-16-10, 04:48 PM
In before lock. :D
Wulfmann
02-16-10, 04:48 PM
Boh Wulfmann in da houz
:yeah:
Nice to see ya Wulfmann!
How have you been Bob, weren't you in Luxembourg for a time??
Did you get married or have you proven smarter than I :haha:
I redid the old BoB missions for Foute Man in ETO because of all the help he was back in 04 painting like crazy but that was my final debt to that sim. They did a great job on the airfields.
My Logitech steering wheel (accelerator actually) broke so no more F1 racing until I get a new one so SH3 GWX3 has been where i still hang out.
Now it looks like I will not do SH5 unless UBI gets to an ER and fixes their brain clot!
Wulfmann
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:49 PM
http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/909-go-away.jpg
Jimbuna
02-16-10, 04:51 PM
Yes but I usually try to shut people up.
I'm not saying SHV will suck or the SHV dev team is a !@#$%^&*.
Neither am I or a great number of people here but I honestly think the post title chosen was not a wise one.
I have planned to buy SHV the day it comes out.
But I have planed the shipping to be week later.
In that time I can see more gameplay vids and reviews.
In that time I can make a good decision.
And also what do you think the problem will be with DRM.
What do you think it will be like?
Wulfmann
02-16-10, 04:51 PM
OK, just saw you are still in Lux, good thing I am the kapitain and not on watch in U-51
Wulfmann
yIts a bit like saying don't go spend $100 at restaurant ABC tonight, because it may be bankrupt in 2015......:hmmm:
.....that may be true, but I am hungry now.
Yes, go eat now. But pay the bill up front, before you are served. If the quality is lacking, there will be no refund. If the kitchen catches fire and is unable to serve you, there will be no refund. If Your order is served late, there will be no refund. If the waiter sneezes on your plate, there will be no refund.
Oh, and each time you take a bite of food, the waiter will be stopping by to check your receipt to be sure you paid for it. If your waiter is not available, you will need to stop eating until he is available. We cannot guarantee that your waiter will be available at any specific time.
Thank you and enjoy your meal.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 04:56 PM
Yea me the same...
Hung around CFS3 untill i did a 25 Gigs install of Stock+Maw+extra Mods, then went the IL-2 route, then their Mods.
in paralel discovered SHIII, and during a six months without a Job (2005) went hunting like mad.
Life is better now, except for
-Cloudcomputing,
-a lack of sex
-that stinkin DRM that pops up everywhere.
And no, i aint planning to get married. Maybe i will marry a Fw-190 for FSX sometime, or a 110... :D
Always appreciated your presence, and glad to meet you here, back in the thick of the Battle.
FIREWALL
02-16-10, 04:57 PM
Why I think the small group keep yammering "buy buy buy- preorder preorder preorder" is...
Misery Loves Company. Simple as that.
Shut the !@#$%^&* up about DRM in SHV
And also what do you think the problem will be with DRM.
:damn:
Mud
If I could change the title I would
What is DRM :hmmm:
It's the nexus of the crisis
And the origin of storms.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 05:09 PM
If I could change the title I would
http://mrinternet.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/screwed1.jpg
Sailor Steve
02-16-10, 05:10 PM
I don't understand what the question "What do you think the problem with DRM bill be?" has to do with the actual poll choices. What my connection is like has nothing to do with the problem I see with this concept. Physical problems? Sure. But that has nothing to do with the reasons I will or won't be involved with monetary transactions related to obtaining this particular item for personal enjoyment. Those problems are strictly moral.
And I think Steamwake had the best take on this whole subject.
Skullcowboy
02-16-10, 05:17 PM
A day begins with a Good stall-n-spin in a P-39. better than coffee.
IL-2 1946 4.09m with DRM... YUCK!
would be a major fail...
P-38 and P-47 are my birds of choice. S! :yeah:
And do you remember the Boonty Box fiasco with the PE-2 add on? More UBI DRM fail...
Bilge_Rat
02-16-10, 05:18 PM
Yes, go eat now. But pay the bill up front, before you are served. If the quality is lacking, there will be no refund. If the kitchen catches fire and is unable to serve you, there will be no refund. If Your order is served late, there will be no refund. If the waiter sneezes on your plate, there will be no refund.
Oh, and each time you take a bite of food, the waiter will be stopping by to check your receipt to be sure you paid for it. If your waiter is not available, you will need to stop eating until he is available. We cannot guarantee that your waiter will be available at any specific time.
Thank you and enjoy your meal.
That may be true, but I am buying a meal not a house. I would never make a $1,000 investment on the conditions Ubisoft is trying to impose, but $50?, I spend more than that just taking my wife out for lunch.
You have to keep things in perspective. Many PC gamers will spend, say $200-300 on a video card which they will upgrade in 12-24 months, but how many will say today: "I refuse to upgrade my video card since it will be obsolete in 5 years".
Let's assume what all the doomsayers are saying is true and all the servers are shut down in 2012 leaving me with a totally useless copy of SH5. You will all be able to say: "We told you so!!!". At that point, I will be forced to admit I was wrong and that all I got for my 50 bucks was a full 24 months of playing the latest SH at an average cost of $2.00 a month.......
.....mmmm, ....tough choice....
:ahoy:
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 05:18 PM
never had that... i went from PF to 46 straight...
He, the IL-2 GOD, has left the sinking ship that Ubisoft appears to be, and is walking his own path...
:D
ERPP8 take a deep breath.
If you have no problem with the DRM then good for you, buy it but don't complain when it destroys your enjoyment of the game.
The question should be is there any need to disrespect other members as much as you have with the title of the thread?
Onkel Neal
02-16-10, 05:22 PM
Whoo-hoo! Now we can have another DRM thread!
No, we have enough on this topic already.
HundertzehnGustav
02-16-10, 05:23 PM
... all I got for my 50 bucks was a full 24 months of playing the latest SH at an average cost of $2.00 a month.......
.....mmmm, ....tough choice....
2012 shut down for good...
But only because by that time nobody is using SHV any more...
the previous "3 months maintenance breaks" in summer 2010, winter 2010/2011 and a loss of all Data in spring 2011 have already driven users back to SHIV/SHIII
Let's assume what all the doomsayers are saying is true and all the servers are shut down in 2012 leaving me with a totally useless copy of SH5. You will all be able to say: "We told you so!!!". At that point, I will be forced to admit I was wrong and that all I got for my 50 bucks was a full 24 months of playing the latest SH at an average cost of $2.00 a month.......
Right. But I pay for it, I should get to use it how, when, and where I want. And for as long as I want. Without outside controls.
How many people would be unhappy if SH3 was only playable for two years?
I still play SH1.
guynoir
02-16-10, 05:35 PM
...
Let's assume what all the doomsayers are saying is true and all the servers are shut down in 2012 leaving me with a totally useless copy of SH5. You will all be able to say: "We told you so!!!". At that point, I will be forced to admit I was wrong and that all I got for my 50 bucks was a full 24 months of playing the latest SH at an average cost of $2.00 a month.......
.....mmmm, ....tough choice....
You know, the other choice here is that if we complain enough and put our money where our mouths are, Ubisoft might back off on this and de-DRM our game.... Don't think it's just Subsim, either; Assassin's Creed 2 is coming, and then you will see madness. :DL
It's happened with Sony's rootkit DRM, Rise of Flight's online-always DRM, and plenty of others... Treat your customers like criminals and you will get push-back.
Bilge_Rat
02-16-10, 05:36 PM
Right. But I pay for it, I should get to use it how, when, and where I want. And for as long as I want. Without outside controls.
How many people would be unhappy if SH3 was only playable for two years?
I still play SH1.
On that we are in total agreement. I am buying SH5 in the expectation that I will be able to play it for a long time and if Ubi screws us all and shuts down the servers in 2012, I will be as royally pissed off as the rest of you and will never buy another game from UBI again.
However and again I am still coming back to my cost argument, even if in a worst case scenario, I can only play SH5 for a maximum of 2 years, I still consider it a worthwhile purchase, given its low cost of $ 49.99.
matsterman
02-16-10, 05:37 PM
The whole piracy excuse IS PURE BULL MANURE anyway. First of all, those who hack games are not going to buy the game in the first place. So, to say it decreases sales is just plain and simple bs.
Secondly, THE REASON PEOPLE HACK GAMES IS BECAUSE THE GAMES THEMSELVES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE. $20-$30 for games, noone would hack.
Why would you? They games are cheap. The reason people hack is because they dont see the value of paying $50 or $60 for a mass produced disc and a manual.
I will not bother with SHV, due to the DRM.
Bilge_Rat
02-16-10, 05:52 PM
You know, the other choice here is that if we complain enough and put our money where our mouths are, Ubisoft might back off on this and de-DRM our game.... Don't think it's just Subsim, either; Assassin's Creed 2 is coming, and then you will see madness. :DL
It's happened with Sony's rootkit DRM, Rise of Flight's online-always DRM, and plenty of others... Treat your customers like criminals and you will get push-back.
You may be right, but again the question becomes how solid can we make a boycott. If only 5% of potential players boycott the game, will Ubi notice?
If 95% boycott the game, will Ubi say its because of DRM or because there is no market for sub sims?
The way I see it, Ubi is committed to this new scheme for all their games and will implement it no matter how much we rant and rave. I think the "scheme" will work or fail on its own merits. Either it will work as advertised and we will all heave a sigh of relief or it will turn out to be more trouble than its worth and it will not be in SH6.
Look what happened with SH3. It came with Starforce, which everyone complained about and which turned out to be a major headache for Ubi. By the time SH4 came out, it just had a simple activation code.
Task Force
02-16-10, 05:53 PM
Hmmm... not bad for a thread that has only been around for about 6 or 7 hours...:rotfl2:8 pages
guynoir
02-16-10, 05:53 PM
Ubisoft doesn't exactly have a stellar track record (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2008/07/did_ubisoft_fix_direct2drive_rainbow_six_vegas_2_u sing_a_crack/) when it comes to maintaining games, their DRM schemes, and customers' abilities to play those games, either... :88)
Onkel Neal
02-16-10, 06:02 PM
No, the piracy excuse is not bull, it's real. Study after study shows huge numbers of people playing games without buying them. There was one article by a small game developer, he said that when they released a patch for their game, it was downloaded 80,000 times in the first few weeks. But they had only sold something like 15,000 copies of the game. :nope: Piracy is wide-spread. I was on break between classes today, two of my classmates were watching Avatar :shifty:
Get used to the idea that game developers will be moving to the Xbox and PS3 consoles, they are not going to invest millions into games and only a few people actually pay for them.
Small game developers like Michael Fitch are leaving the industry. Can't say I blame them.
Venting my frustrations with PC game-dev
Greetings:
So, ILE shut down (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42641). This is tangentially related to that, not why they shut down, but part of why it was such a difficult freaking slog trying not to. It's a rough, rough world out there for independent studios who want to make big games, even worse if you're single-team and don't have a successful franchise to ride or a wealthy benefactor. Trying to make it on PC product is even tougher, and here's why.
Piracy. Yeah, that's right, I said it. No, I don't want to re-hash the endless "piracy spreads awareness", "I only pirate because there's no demo", "people who pirate wouldn't buy the game anyway" round-robin. Been there, done that. I do want to point to a couple of things, though.
One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.
So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of **** on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.
One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.
So, for a game that doesn't have a Madden-sized advertising budget, word of mouth is your biggest hope, and here we are, before the game even releases, getting bashed to hell and gone by people who can't even be bothered to actually pay for the game. What was the ultimate impact of that? Hard to measure, but it did get mentioned in several reviews. Think about that the next time you read "we didn't have any problems running the game, but there are reports on the internet that people are having crashes."
Two, the numbers on piracy are really astonishing. The research I've seen pegs the piracy rate at between 70-85% on PC in the US, 90%+ in Europe, off the charts in Asia. I didn't believe it at first. It seemed way too high. Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, classic PC audience stuff. Given the difference in install base, I can't believe that there's that big of a difference in who played these games, but I guess there can be in who actually payed for them.
Let's dig a little deeper there. So, if 90% of your audience is stealing your game, even if you got a little bit more, say 10% of that audience to change their ways and pony up, what's the difference in income? Just about double. That's right, double. That's easily the difference between commercial failure and success. That's definitely the difference between doing okay and founding a lasting franchise. Even if you cut that down to 1% - 1 out of every hundred people who are pirating the game - who would actually buy the game, that's still a 10% increase in revenue. Again, that's big enough to make the difference between breaking even and making a profit.
Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today. You can bitch all you want about how piracy is your god-given right, and none of it matters anyway because you can't change how people behave... whatever. Some really good people made a seriously good game, and they might still be in business if piracy weren't so rampant on the PC. That's a fact.
Enough about piracy. Let's talk about hardware vendors. Trying to make a game for PC is a freaking nightmare, and these guys make it harder all the time. Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.
And it just keeps getting worse. CD/DVD drives with bad firmware, video cards that look like they should be a step-up from a previous generation, but actually aren't, drivers that need to be constantly updated, separate rendering paths for optimizing on different chips, oh my god. Put together consumers who want the cheapest equipment possible with the best performance, manufacturers who don't give a **** what happens to their equipment once they ship it, and assemblers who need to work their margins everywhere possible, and you get a lot of ****ty hardware out there, in innumerable configurations that you can't possibly test against. But, it's always the game's fault when something doesn't work.
Even if you get over the hump on hardware compatibility - and god knows, the hardware vendors are constantly making it worse - if you can, you still need to deal with software conflicts. There are a lot of apps running on people's machines that they're not even aware of, or have become such a part of the computer they don't even think of them as being apps anymore. IM that's always on; peer-to-peer clients running in the background; not to mention the various adware and malware crap that people pick up doing things they really shouldn't. Trying to run a CPU and memory heavy app in that environment is a nightmare. But, again, it's always the game's fault if it doesn't work.
Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there. Now, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very savvy people out there, too, and there were some great folks in the TQ community who helped us out a lot. But, there's a lot of stupid people. Basic, basic stuff, like updating your drivers, or de-fragging your hard drive, or having antivirus so your machine isn't a teetering pile of rogue programs. PC folks want to have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want with their machines, and god help them they will do it; more power to them, really. But god forbid something that they've done - or failed to do - creates a problem with your game. There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than gaming forums.
And while I'm at it, I don't want to spare the reviewers either. We had one reviewer - I won't name names, you can find it if you look hard enough - who missed the fact that you can teleport from wherever you are in TQ back to any of the major towns you've visited. So, this guy was hand-carting all of his stuff back to town every time his inventory was full. Through the entire game. Now, not only was this in the manual, and in the roll-over tooltips for the UI, but it was also in the tutorial, the very first time you walk past one of these giant pads that lights up like a beacon to the heavens. Nonetheless, he missed it, and he commented in his review how tedious this was and how much he missed being able to portal back to town. When we - and lots of our fans - pointed out that this was the reviewer's fault, not the game's, they amended the review. But, they didn't change the score. Do you honestly think that not having to run back to town all the time to sell your stuff wouldn't have made the game a better experience?
We had another reviewer who got crashes on both the original and the expansion pack. We worked with him to figure out what was going on; the first time, it was an obscure peripheral that was causing the crash, a classic hardware conflict for a type of hardware that very, very few people have. The second time, it was in a pre-release build that we had told him was pre-release. After identifying the problem, getting him around it, and verifying that the bug was a known issue and had been fixed in the interim, he still ran the story with a prominent mention of this bug. With friends like that...
Alright, I'm done. Making PC products is not all fun and games. It's an uphill slog, definitely. I'm a lifelong PC gamer, and hope to continue to work on PC games in the future, but man, they sure don't make it easy.
Best,
Michael
In the first DRM thread people were civilized, not they have stupid jokes as their signatures and say stuff like "DRM will ruin the game.
A game is a game, if SHV ends up being a suckish game so be it.
But if it is great, but people are predigest against it that is dumb.
ETR3(SS)
02-16-10, 06:08 PM
As immature as it may be...
IN BEFORE THE LOCK!
As immature as it may be...
IN BEFORE THE LOCK!
:ping: Seconded :zzz:
Nisgeis
02-16-10, 06:11 PM
I've heard that story before and I can't believe he didn't put a 'You've had a free demo, now if you like it buy the game' instead of just making it crash with no explanation - that's a strange decision. It guess piracy does in fact spread awareness. :doh:
Also, there are lots of instances of the games being released on pirate sites, as in the baove example before it hit the shelves. He doesn't mention how that happened. Same with DVDs for cinema releases that haven't been shown at the cinema yet... so who exactly is it in the industry that is leaking this stuff - I mean that's gotta be easier to find and stop whoever it is leaking it, rather than wait for your insider to give it to a cracker, have them crack the game and then try to stop it, once the horse has bolted, so to speak.
As immature as it may be...
IN BEFORE THE LOCK!
In before the lock?
Onkel Neal
02-16-10, 06:15 PM
FYI: Guys, we have way too many topics about the same subject, I'm merging them here. No comments were censored (or sensored), no comments were lost. Just compiled into one thread.
Carry on with the SH5 death sentence.
On that we are in total agreement. I am buying SH5 in the expectation that I will be able to play it for a long time and if Ubi screws us all and shuts down the servers in 2012, I will be as royally pissed off as the rest of you and will never buy another game from UBI again.
However and again I am still coming back to my cost argument, even if in a worst case scenario, I can only play SH5 for a maximum of 2 years, I still consider it a worthwhile purchase, given its low cost of $ 49.99.
And my point is that we shouldn't even give them the chance to do it. If they get away with this, and it gets cracked (I have no doubts it will be), what's their next step going to be?
You may be right, but again the question becomes how solid can we make a boycott. If only 5% of potential players boycott the game, will Ubi notice?
If 95% boycott the game, will Ubi say its because of DRM or because there is no market for sub sims?
The way I see it, Ubi is committed to this new scheme for all their games and will implement it no matter how much we rant and rave. I think the "scheme" will work or fail on its own merits. Either it will work as advertised and we will all heave a sigh of relief or it will turn out to be more trouble than its worth and it will not be in SH6.
Look what happened with SH3. It came with Starforce, which everyone complained about and which turned out to be a major headache for Ubi. By the time SH4 came out, it just had a simple activation code.
From what we can tell from surveys, about 85%of members of this site are firmly opposed to DRM. Assuming 10% caves in, we have 75% of hard core buyers not buying. That's one hell of a hit.
One must remember that less than 10% of the lurker traffic is represented by our membership..
All indications are that Ubi will have to back off DRM.
It is very stupid of Ubi not to have backed off already.
They might be testing the waters. A dangerous game when you are in shark infested waters.
I can assure everyone, I'm not buying the DRM crap. My wallet will stay shut until DRM is removed.
ETR3(SS)
02-16-10, 06:20 PM
And Neal comes outta right filed with the thread merge instead of the lock. Anyways the new thread title rocks!:haha::rock:
Onkel Neal
02-16-10, 06:21 PM
And my point is that we shouldn't even give them the chance to do it. If they get away with this, and it gets cracked (I have no doubts it will be), what's their next step going to be?
I can tell you exactly what the next step will be: stop making games for the PC. They can sell more on consoles anyway. If they cannot make money developing PC games, they will stop.
FYI: Guys, we have way too many topics about the same subject, I'm merging them here. No comments were censored (or sensored), no comments were lost. Just compiled into one thread.
Carry on with the SH5 death sentence.
I think that in early March, you need to just set up a filter on the forum, and drop any post that has "DRM" in the title, and leave the filter there for a month. Should take a lot of work off of you and the moderators.
I can tell you exactly what the next step will be: stop making games for the PC. They can sell more on consoles anyway. If they cannot make money developing PC games, they will stop.
That is something I would hate to see. How well would a real simulator do on a console? How well did Silent Service do on the NES?
Yikes!
I think that in early March, you need to just set up a filter on the forum, and drop any post that has "DRM" in the title, and leave the filter there for a month. Should take a lot of work off of you and the moderators.
That is something I would hate to see. How well would a real simulator do on a console? How well did Silent Service do on the NES?
Yikes!
Don't go suggesting Stalinist censorship. It is bad enough getting chucked into the back pages. But that makes impressive numbers :D
Don't go suggesting Stalinist censorship. It is bad enough getting chucked into the back pages. But that makes impressive numbers :D
How about an automatic merge? Or a DRM only board?
Edit: Nevermind, not as bad as I thought. This thread only accounts for 4% of the SH5 board.
guynoir
02-16-10, 06:39 PM
I can tell you exactly what the next step will be: stop making games for the PC. They can sell more on consoles anyway. If they cannot make money developing PC games, they will stop.
Well, then... talk about a rock and a hard place!
With this new online-only DRM, they anger their fans and literally exclude a portion of their potential customers from even playing the game... Meanwhile, pirates will still probably crack the game and download it anyway, so the DRM only succeeds in angering buying customers, and many pirates wouldn't have bought it in the first place.
I do know that one of those two groups of people want to buy and play Silent Hunter V, and it doesn't seem like Ubisoft should be so adversarial against them...
I can tell you exactly what the next step will be:
With respect Neal, you can't; no one can, but as consumers we all play a
small part in carving our own future.
In the end, there is always someone who will make money by giving
paying customers what they want, however much piracy or games
people refuse to buy, a paying customer's wallet is still worth chasing.
Nordmann
02-16-10, 07:05 PM
I can tell you exactly what the next step will be: stop making games for the PC. They can sell more on consoles anyway. If they cannot make money developing PC games, they will stop.
That's funny, just last year, developers producing games for consoles were making a big, big loss. Insofar as sales are concerned, people simply cannot afford £44.99 for a single game, and yes, this is the average price of most console games.
If Ubi, or any other company stop making games for PC, then they may as well sell up and go into retirement, because without the PC market, they will not last long at all.
All I hear about is how awesome consoles are, how they beat PCs, yet I used to be a console gamer myself and I can tell you, they are no damned comparison to the power of the PC. Sim games are virtually non-existent, and the few that have tried, do not work well.
With respect Neal, you can't; no one can
If he cannot speculate on this, why can you speculate on SH5 with DRM..:06:
That's funny, just last year, developers producing games for consoles were making a big, big loss.
...and what about developers producing games for PC?
you're gonna tell me they had an incredible success last year?
If he cannot speculate on this, why can you speculate on SH5 with DRM..:06:
He wasn't speculating, he was 'telling us exactly'.
Besides, online DRM isn't speculation, it's been confirmed long ago.
Ubi lost money last year. They still expect negative chash flow this year. It's going to be worse as SH5 fails like crazy due to DRM. Then this will cause a domino effect on othe Ubi games. DRM is a big self-impossed disaster for UBI.
MasterCaine
02-16-10, 07:25 PM
I have to completely disagree that the main reason for the switch to DRM and pay-as-you-play is due to piracy. That's ridiculous.
Yes, I'll admit that piracy is taking away some sales from the publishers. But I think it's obvious the main reason for the switch is to kill off the resale of used games- period. That is the biggest profit-killer for the publishers. And the other main reason is there is just too much replay value and lifespan in the older gaming style. Publishers are looking at this from a financial perspective only. This is not for the benefit of the gamers, no matter what the publishers or shills here may claim. They are always looking for new ways to milk the gamers for more money. Vote with your wallet. Enough is enough. I say we boycott the greedy bastard companies that take this approach, and let them die. :rock:
Takeda Shingen
02-16-10, 07:26 PM
Ubi lost money last year. They still expect negative chash flow this year. It's going to be worse as SH5 fails like crazy due to DRM. Then this will cause a domino effect on othe Ubi games. DRM is a big self-impossed disaster for UBI.
I am not so certain that Ubi expects SH5 to be a cash cow in the same vein as, say, Assasins Creed and Prince of Persia.
MasterCaine
02-16-10, 07:29 PM
Ubi lost money last year. They still expect negative chash flow this year. It's going to be worse as SH5 fails like crazy due to DRM. Then this will cause a domino effect on othe Ubi games. DRM is a big self-impossed disaster for UBI.
Ubisoft's latest move to DRM (and possible pay-as-you-play) is just another sign of their financial desperation. Final death throes. Call it intuition, but I have feeling Ubisoft won't be around much longer. :shifty:
I am not so certain that Ubi expects SH5 to be a cash cow in the same vein as, say, Assasins Creed and Prince of Persia.
Agreed on that, that's why they are testing the DRM/OBS on us. However DRM will sink Assassins Creed, too, if they try it.
online DRM isn't speculation, it's been confirmed long ago.
I meant speculate about Ubi servers going down, Ubi will steal private data, speculate that it will be cracked anyway, etc.
Ubisoft's latest move to DRM (and possible pay-as-you-play) is just another sign of their financial desperation. Final death throes. Call it intuition, but I have feeling Ubisoft won't be around much longer. :shifty:
From reading their latest financial statemen, I think you might be right.
Wulfmann
02-16-10, 07:40 PM
Thanks for merging the threads. :down:
Now I can't find anything at all. :damn:
I was on a 7 page thread, hard enough, but now it is 83 pages so on dial up I am supposed to take a week to search for the relative postings???:o
I guess that was done for your convenience and obviously with no concern for the general membership.
I guess Joe Biden is the moderator now :timeout:
Wulfmann
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