The gawd-almighty merged DRM in Silent Hunter V thread

[VonGlaus]

I am one of those gamers that are usually connected 24/7 to the net.
But my service provider sometimes shuts down the service for update or maintenance purposes or simply because something went "boom."
If this happens, that means I can kiss my game progress goodbye.

If SH5 would be an MMO then it would be pretty obvious that there is no other practical way around and I would be fine with the "online the whole time" thing. Same during Online-Multiplay. Just because it does not work any other way than with a connection to the net.

But we are talking about a mainly offline experience here. I am not playing against human opponents over the net, i am playing an offline game against the computers AI.
Having to be online the whole time, only to save my progress and losing it if the connection goes down, sounds simply ridiculous to me.

I couldn't have said it better than Jack. And I was astonished at the number of posters that assume everybody in the world has a magic connection to the Internet that's wider than a supertanker and always works. According to Trenken, I'm some 'special case' by not having 24/7 plugin. At least 3 times a week I spend 24 hours at work away from an Internet connection. Nobody else is like that? Just about 296,000 others in the US alone. And all those business folks on trips? Screw them, too.

I own and play one MMO game. I fully understand why I need to be connected to play that game. I play one flight sim and 2 sub sims. Why should those single-player games require constant contact with anyone else?

But hey, now I get spare money to spend on somebody else's game...

[trenken]

Neal,

With all respect, that is absolutely NOT true. There are many people out there with high end systems who do not "live in double-wides", whom are not connected to the Internet when they play games. I travel a lot for business teaching seminars for a living. Most of the opportunity I get to play SH3 is when I am traveling with my laptop on the road and saying in hotels. Depending on where I am and how long I'm there, I often do not have an internet connection.

I have been giving UBI the benefit of the doubt on everything so far...taking a wait and see attitude. But any authentication system that requires an active Internet connection is a deal breaker for me. If they implement such a system, they lost my sale. I'll stick with SH3/SH4 until someone comes out with a crack or a work around. Then I'll buy it.

You're a special situation though, you're travelling on business and playing on your laptop in hotels. Safe to say you're way down in the minority there.

Fact is most PC gamers these days have PCs that are always connected to the internet on broadband, so games are being made for them now.

I dont have some killer connection, standard issue broadband cable you can get in almost every town, and if that can handle an MMO, Im pretty sure I can play SH5 while my girlfriend streams a netflix movie through the internet with no problems.

Hell, she's done that while im playing guild wars. It sounds like you guys are stuck in 1996 where games just died if you tried to launch even just a web browser. Its just not like that anymore. I know a lot of PC gamers, all of them are on the internet 24/7, Ubi is well aware of this.

[tater]

You keep harping on the broadband issue. ANY hiccup either in your connection (my MMOG experience is filled with these---as are those of every ww2ol player) ends your game. Have the ubi forums ever been slow or out? Hmmm, yes. Part of subsiums popularity is likely the fact that the ubi forums are amazingly screwy. I remember trying online using the built-in stuff in il-2... ubi again, very flakey. Hence everyone uses HL instead. Any one of these problems ends your game now.

Streaming updates? No modding. No modding AND THE GAME IS NOT WORTH PLAYING.

Read that again, the SH games have not been worth playing regardless of DRM until modded. Not "not as good," but not worth playing. At all (unless you are a twitch gamer who doesn't care in the least about realism).

None of this of course addresses the REASON for this DRM technique. The reason is piracy and the presumption of lost dollars. The reality is that thieves won't pay for it. They'll either crack it and play for free, or not play and not pay.

ANY customers lost due to this are a net revenue loss as a result. Or do you expect deadbeats who pirate stuff to suddenly decide it's worth $50?

[Highbury]

The bottom line is (and don't kid yourselves, the bottom line is all Ubi will look at) is that yeah, 300 - 400 ppl from Subsim may pass on it because of this. But with the new distro methods like Steam you have it adverised as ready to go to millions of people every day. They WILL gain numbers over SHIV because of this.

Have any of you ever played a non Steam game that was later added to Steam? I have with a couple and going by online players the number shot up fourfold.. and we know most players don't go online.

Sure they will lose some of the dedicated old people, but will gain thousands of people who say "Oh what's this, I'll try it" on Steam. SHV will outsell SHIV. A new players money smells just as good as a Salty Old Dog's and Ubi will be pleased with themselves.

If you are angry because you have a poor connection, I feel for ya. If you are just trying to make a moral stand... good luck with that.. Ubi is laughing all the way to the bank.

[Webster]

Ubi is laughing all the way to the bank.

well you have your opinion and many here are of a different opinion but only time will tell.


UBI will be at the bank one way or the other and weather they are making a deposit or needing a loan will probaly have nothing to do with this game but you are fooling yourself to assume such small numbers of sales will be lost over this and i dont see FPS crowd loving a slow action strategy game to make up for all those lost sales.

[Reece]

Give up tater!:yep: Some here are of the opinion that if you are in the minority of people, say 20%, with bad internet connections, "who cares, bad luck, tough break!! I have a good connection and that is all that counts!!"
So forget it, with them it's all about "Me Me Me"!:-?

[mookiemookie]

blah blah blah.

You know, everywhere on the internet that I've read news about Ubi's scheme here, all of the user comments have been overwhelmingly negative. Your attitude is such that you think we're the people living in the dark ages and like totally get with the program, maaaan. Unfortunately for Ubi, it's not just us and they're about to find out that customers aren't going to buy into this. And unlike your "oh it's the way it is, why fight it" attitude, I predict a customer backlash like we're already seeing is going to lead to this hair-brained scheme being dropped at some point.

[Highbury]

Give up tater!:yep: Some here are of the opinion that if you are in the minority of people, say 20%, with bad internet connections, "who cares, bad luck, tough break!! I have a good connection and that is all that counts!!"
So forget it, with them it's all about "Me Me Me"!:-?

Actually I said that I feel for the guys with bad connections and I meant it. You guys have a right to bitch, I am just saying people doing it for a moral stand have no hope because the bean counters will have more beans to count.

I know you guys in Aus have it bad. I have friends with "broadband" from BigPond that is little better then dial up.

[tater]

I personally don't care, even if I bought SH 5 I'd not play it. Really. I have the u-boats add-on but I've never seen a SH u-boat on my computer. Not once, I have less than zero interest in u-boats unless I'm given the opportunity to sink them.

My connection flaking out doesn't matter (I don't know anyone in ww2ol who hasn't had the odd CTHL, BTW, and I've been playing for over 9 years).

From a bottom line standpoint you may be right. The quality doesn't matter because by the time the customer tries the game it's too late, they've paid, so it doesn't matter if the modders all take a powder.

All moot when it gets cracked anyway, lol.

[Reece]

@ Highbury, I wasn't actually targeting you, but I will add that I don't mind Steam for anyone who wants to play online, I just don't like the idea of having to login to a company to play offline, the game purchased for near AU $100 is only good if you can login and only until support for the game is dropped, then you can't play anymore, would be good if a patch came out, even after several months to ensure that I can play offline for as long as I want, I still play SH3, near 8 years later, I bet SH5 can't be played when it's that old, unless a patch comes out of course!:cry:

[Arclight]

I think the online requirement will be patched out before that 8 year mark. :)

Once the sale of new copies drops to a handfull of units per year, keeping it tied to a server would only cost them money. It only makes sense from a business perspective to release that patch.

The alternative is shutting down the servers, which would cause a substantially more severe backlash than this harebrained DRM scheme.

[Letum]

I think the online requirement will be patched out before that 8 year mark.

If the community shows some solidarity against it after release, as I'm
sure we will, it may be a lot sooner than that.

[vigilante]

One sure fact is it will create piracy. Lots of legit users of SH3 and SH4 won't buy SH5 due to its DRM ad will chose a cracked version. It's a pitty, because once you have lost a customer, it's lost for good; but that's what Ubisoft deserves.
I rather install an offline cracked version from a "bad guy", than a steam DRM legit version that want to send my details all the time to the big brother Ubisoft. DRM is trojan, I know how it works and it's just a proof of company's impotence of creating a really efficient piracy protection system.
Customer have to suffer because guys on Ubisoft are not able to create an decent anti-piracy system.

[maurader]

The bottom line is (and don't kid yourselves, the bottom line is all Ubi will look at) is that yeah, 300 - 400 ppl from Subsim may pass on it because of this. But with the new distro methods like Steam you have it adverised as ready to go to millions of people every day. They WILL gain numbers over SHIV because of this.

Have any of you ever played a non Steam game that was later added to Steam? I have with a couple and going by online players the number shot up fourfold.. and we know most players don't go online.

Sure they will lose some of the dedicated old people, but will gain thousands of people who say "Oh what's this, I'll try it" on Steam. SHV will outsell SHIV. A new players money smells just as good as a Salty Old Dog's and Ubi will be pleased with themselves.

If you are angry because you have a poor connection, I feel for ya. If you are just trying to make a moral stand... good luck with that.. Ubi is laughing all the way to the bank.

You got a point but there is one problem with this.
This is not Steam. This is Ubisoft's own copy protection. The game is still going to be sold at Gamestop/Best Buy/Frys/Etc. So the millions of "new" Steam customers that you say will see it, actually wont see it. I havent actually heard about them selling this thru Steam (yet). From what I understand, they are selling it thru the regular channels. The only thing that has changed is the DRM method. This wont get them many new customers.

[bratkorv]

Is it confirmed that this DRM applies to SH5?

[Highbury]

Is it confirmed that this DRM applies to SH5?

Yes

[Brag]

I will not buy a game controlled by DRM! :nope:

I don't accept the principle of I pay, you keep--the logic is untenable.

Ubi, you go DRM, you have lost me.

Ubi, if you have studied the French revolutionm you know what happens when you try to shove unwanted stuff down people's throats.

And, YES, all you are achieving is promoting the spread of piracy.

Ubi, I am in the publishing business too. every day I see my used books sold without getting a penny. My Kindle version is also being pirated. I understand your problem. Find a better solution than DRM!

[Arclight]

Such as more quality and content. Make something that's worth the money and maybe people will be more inclined to buy your shovelw... ehr, products.

[Topo65]

Software piracy is something that companies must learn to live together. Unable to remove beggars, prohibiting begging. Much less, discriminating customers by where they live, because the quality of Internet varies according to where they live.

In short, Ubisoft kicked me as a customer, because even though I buy my Silent Hunter V, I'll always be for them a thief for not having a stable internet connection. This disgusts me. :x:damn:

I also want to play Silent Hunter 5, but I can not. Not because I have no money, not because I have no PC requeriments, but because where I live, I do not get enough internet signal to play.

What you think I supposed to do? Sell my house and move my wife and son to another location with internet enough to UBI? :down:

Everything has a limit. And this is the limit, Ubisoft

[sabretwo]

You're a special situation though, you're travelling on business and playing on your laptop in hotels. Safe to say you're way down in the minority there.

Fact is most PC gamers these days have PCs that are always connected to the internet on broadband, so games are being made for them now.
I know a lot of PC gamers, all of them are on the internet 24/7, Ubi is well aware of this.

I understand a large percentage of North American and European gamers are on Internet conenctions 24/7. But aside from guys who travel like me, there are also a lot of subsimmers in countries like Topo65 above where satellite Internet connectivity gets spotty and goes down at times including a lot of the third world and even many developed countries. I have seen occassional service outages when traveling to several places in the Middle East and Asia. If you are US military or a contractor in Iraq or Afghanistan, service availability also gets dicey at times too.

PC Gamers in the US and Europe take good infrastructure for granted.

I used to be a fan of the Total War series. The latest total war game, Empire, uses Steam. Even with Steam, I can occassioanlly be online to authenticate the game and then play offline when I travel. But Steam authentication pops up so frequently that I don't even really play that game any more. Last year I got stuck in a hotel in Dubai for 24-hours due to a missed plane conenction and was unable to get an Internet conenction. (Dubai mind you, not exactly some third world country!) Steam was at a point where it would not let me play offline. I decided that was it. F''' Steam! I played SH3. I uninstalled Empire and haven't loaded it back on since.

UBI needs to very seriously rethink this one.

Wolfpacks, ending in 1943, and all that other stuff I can contend with. I'd still buy the game, hoping that the Modding community can improve it and get it where we want it. But any requirement for active internet conenctivity is a DEAL BREAKER.:down:

Well, I guess this was the inspiration I needed to get back to work on my mod. I was working the past year on a highly improved Med Campaign for GWX 3 (a number of new harbors, improved shipping, scripting of a number of aditional battles, etc.). I got up to late 1943 and lost steam on it about three months ago. Maybe I'll start spending some of my hotel time working on that again and milk a few more years out of SH3 until SH6 comes along or maybe someone creates a crack.

[simsurfer]

So much for supporting the manufacturer to ensure more games when they pull this garbage.

Bye bye ubi.

[bratkorv]

Yes
Then I'm out. This will be one of those rare occasions where I rather download a "fixed" version + total boycott of UBI from now on. Either that or I skip SH5 altogether. I have enough on my hands as it is anyway.

No Mercy.

Clearly the devs better look for another publisher then UBI if they want to survive this business. Just like with BIS (Bohemia Interactive) They successfully broke with their fascist publisher (Codemasters) and kept the hard core fansbase. The FP/ARMA community is stronger then ever.

If not, then SH6 prob will never see the light of day.

[badkarma]

I'm actually really surprised at the amount of people who've posted not that they won't buy, but that they can't.
The way some pro-Ubi DRM posters talk about this "minority" you'd expect maybe a handful of people out of the hundreds posting. I've lost count of the number of times (in this thread alone) I've read explanations as to why people are not on perma-connection.

The idea that a tiny percentage of gamers are not perma-connected might be true for the FPS/MMO crowd, but for sim gamers I think the numbers are more than some people expect.

[Arclight]

Who cares, still a minority, right? :roll:

(obvious sarcasm, in case I need to point it out :D)

[sabretwo]

All I can say at this point is...

GO GO GO FlakMonkey, DivingDuck, Lucagaeta, and Tomi! Give us our sub for SH3!!!

(Man, this sucks! I was really looking forward to SH5 in spite of its apparent shortfalls!)

[Lanzfeld]

I have a question.

I have just purchased my 100th compter. Can I play SHV on ALL of them?

:har::har::har:

[Arrakis]

Couldn't the application of DRM be decided upon the "multiplayer value" of a game?

SH5 is mostly a single player game which offers the greatest depth (joke apart...) when this player plays the content of the new dynamic campaign installed from a CD-rom...
Since the beginning of the serie SH, multiplayer function is quite poor if I judge by the comments I came across in the forum.

According to me, the real interest of online registration would be the perspective of using the multiplayer perspectives offered by the game : there would always be a bunch of online people on Ubi servers to launch a campaign or battle.

The DRM as it is for now, presents more potential problems than real advantages. My PC is perfectly able to successfully save my current campaign files without the help of Ubi servers. I don't like the idea of having Internet reliability as a sword of Damocles while on cruise, and wondering if the game is about to pause, the time to retrieve the signal....It would be like watching a streaming video waiting for loading times.

Maybe will Ubi adopt the DRM only for certain titles and not for SH....at least I hope.

[Uber Gruber]

Look, I know i've had my beef with middle managers in here before, especially those that make decisions at UBI....but i've realised the error of my ways. Now all I want to do is meet the guys who made the DRM decision and shake their hands....what a great bunch of guys! It just makes me feel so silly and stupid for ever doubting their abilities.

Well done UBI :up:

[trenken]

Another nice thing about DRM is it will allow them to seemlessly integrate multiplayer modes, or maybe even some open world mode, sort of like a sub sim MMO, which ive seen many people talk about here.

DRM doesnt mean that you dont own the game. That's ridiculous. Of course you own it. You've got a disc, the game is running on your machine, only thing that you wont have personally is your save game, and for the last 3 years ive played games that use DRM, Ive been a big fan of that.

Ive got a custom built machine that took a dump on me during my MMO playing days. Had it not been for DRM I would have lost roughly 1600 hours of playing, working hard for rare items, etc... I cant even fathom how bad that would have stung to lose all that.

[Steeltrap]

Ive got a custom built machine that took a dump on me during my MMO playing days. Had it not been for DRM I would have lost roughly 1600 hours of playing, working hard for rare items, etc... I cant even fathom how bad that would have stung to lose all that.

Entirely sensible view when playing a MMO.

But a SINGLE PLAYER game?

If we apply your example to a single player environment, why in god's name would I want to be connected to the internet to save a game? How much time/effort do I lose if it dumps on me in the middle of a convoy attack? Does it save 'real time' so I can load at exactly the point I was when it dumped? That's before you consider the fact that save games in SH3 and 4 (I think 4, but definitely 3) had a lot of known issues.

Then consider Ubi's record with server access/stability. :wah:

I have no issue with Steam activation, for example. I also have no trouble with the fact that some advantages stem from such online involvement, such as digital d/l to retrieve a game after a hard drive crash etc, plus simpler patching.

Indeed, Steam has the attraction of allowing me to use 1 account/password for a variety of games. A huge problem in most workplaces is the multiplicity of systems and passwords people doing almost any job need to have. The resources spent per annum on tasks such as password re-sets is staggering (in my current role I have access to such info in a well known company here in Aus). Now they want me to do the same at home for games? Some on Steam, others on Ubi, others WindowsLive (which is crap)?? NO WAY

What I will never accept is being told I have to be connected the entire time. I can see no justification for that at all.

[Navarre]

Clearly the devs better look for another publisher then UBI if they want to survive this business.
They can't, the developers in Bucharest are not an independent company, they are employees of Ubisoft. Ubisoft is the developer and publisher in one person. The developers have the choice to terminate at Ubisoft and find a new job or do what the employer requires.

[BulSoldier]

The one reasonable thing they could have done is that if you want to be offline and play the game stick the disk in your cd/dvd rom if you want to have net meanwhile well you have to be connected.Thats seems a bit more reasonable.

[bratkorv]

Who cares, still a minority, right? :roll:

(obvious sarcasm, in case I need to point it out :D)


Sarcasm indeed.

The market for historical simulations, and particularity submarine simulations is a narrow one. If they ignore this community, it will be at their own peril.

We are not criminals so why would any of us want to "pay" to be treated as such? Now is the time to make a stand. If you do not, then what is next? Perhaps a DRM with a monthly fee or limited connection time / month? UBI is just another corporation and they are only interested in making you pay them as much as possible, as often as possible. They do not care about the developers and they do not care about you and your gaming experience.

Think about that for a second.

I will make a new threat when SH5 is out and confirm that I have no intention of buying it. Now is the time to make a stand. If nobody is up for the task, then why are we arguing about this in the first place?

[cuervo111]

It's obvious most of us don't like this DRM. Shouldn't we redact some kind of letter from the comunity to Ubi, explaining why we think it is a bad idea, why they will lost some customers, and how we think not using that kind of DRM will be actually good for their business?

Just a thought...

[Arclight]

The writing is on the wall, it has been for some time. There have been several public outcries in response to ridiculous limitations imposed by DRM. No, I don't think a letter would do any good. Ubi is aware of the fact people hate this kind of crap, but they decided to go ahead anyway. Heck, they took it to the next level.

1 thing left to do, and that is vote with your wallet. If you feel like sending a message, that's the only one that they are going to notice, apparently.

[Steeltrap]

It's obvious most of us don't like this DRM. Shouldn't we redact some kind of letter from the comunity to Ubi, explaining why we think it is a bad idea, why they will lost some customers, and how we think not using that kind of DRM will be actually good for their business?

Just a thought...

Sadly it's a bit like telling someone that they'd find the view and atmosphere far more pleasant if they'd only take their head out of their arse.

Despite how blindingly obvious it is, there are none so blind as those who will not see.....

[bratkorv]

... vote with your wallet. If you feel like sending a message, that's the only one that they are going to notice, apparently.

Truth Be Told.

[johan_d]

UBI is wasting money on this! they better keep the money for their stockholders, since people who want to play SH5 will buy it and play it with or without DRM.
Hackers will remove the internet check, and those who use a prirated copy will play it, and never intend to buy it, so there is no money loss here.
Yes read it again..

Only if they make an unbreakable DRM system, and be honest, no such thing is possible, everything can be hacked, even the Pentagon, then they will get some extra buyers, but not much.. those who dont want to pay for it either get a hacked version or if that doesnt exist move on to something else and never buy it in the first place.

Its so simple.

There is one thing they can do, and that is FADE.. woven in the complete game so it cant be bypassed or taken out easily, it must be so complex that even hackers dont want to crack it because it takes to much time..

Ever been on gamecopyworld.com ? there you see no-cd versions for a wagon load of games.. all the protections failed. It wont be easy to protect it.

Maybe lower the price?

Anyhow, same discussion is on avsim.com, and noone knows a good solution.

[Garion]

Sigh.. being one of those people that live in the middle of nowhere with a dodgy internet connection SH5 will be a No Go or maybe a go... no go.. go. go... no go for me depending on my Internet provider...

Dont think I want to support this kind of DRM soo No Sale Ubi.

Ubi probably make most of their profits on console games, so if their games tank on the pc because of their DRM it will give them the excuse to drop further PC titles... or am I just being a conspirathy Theorist :eek:

Cheers

Garion

[trenken]

Entirely sensible view when playing a MMO.

But a SINGLE PLAYER game?



What im saying is I lost all my save data from SH3, CoD, and many other games, the only game that I didnt lost my save data from was the mmo, which was a DRM game.

I spent 100s of hours playing SH3, everything was lost. I do not like games that save to my HDD, hence why Im a fan of DRM. It saved my ass in guild wars. I dont know anyone that doesnt have a constant connection to the internet so that argument makes no sense to me. I built a new machine, installed the game again, right back to where I left off on the other machine. So much better than the way games used to be.

Only exceptions I think are people on dialup, which is still nuts to me, there's so few of them now that game dev's dont worry about them anymore, and thats how it should be, things need to keep moving forward. And people that use their laptops in hotels, and really, how many of them are playing SH on a laptop in a hotel room?

[trenken]

The writing is on the wall, it has been for some time. There have been several public outcries in response to ridiculous limitations imposed by DRM. No, I don't think a letter would do any good. Ubi is aware of the fact people hate this kind of crap, but they decided to go ahead anyway. Heck, they took it to the next level.

1 thing left to do, and that is vote with your wallet. If you feel like sending a message, that's the only one that they are going to notice, apparently.

Please list these limitations, because as far as im aware, the only one is the constant connection, and as I said in a previous post, there are so few PC gamers these days that do not have a constant connection to the internet that you just cant worry about the ones that dont anymore.

My grandmother has a PC with constant connection to the internet. I would think most PC gamers with a modern machine to even play these games would be on the net all the time. Everyone I know is.

[johan_d]

I also lost 100's of hours of SH3 save's but not of a faulty HD but because SH3 saved the saves corrupted!
First make it saving a real save, before moving it to a server. Doesnt matter where it is, it corrupts by itself wherever it is stored.
Saves while submerged anyone ?

[Gabucino]

Strange. I've just arrived to preorder. Thankfully now I know better.

I've been through this online check ordeal with Paradox+VP Ltd's strategy games. Now I can't play some of them because I've changed my Mac more than 2 times (checked on start), and they refused to issue new codes to me, even banned me from their forum for being outraged - therefore I have to use manual quirks to play aforementioned games.

Also, Windows 7 has this Microsoft Games subsystem (gameux.dll) that requires internet connection, and falls in an endless 100% cpu usage loop if there isn't one, forcing me to start the game again (now it would start), then use the Task Manager to quit the first instance. Yes, this is the case with SH3, as my gamer PC does not have any net connection, why should it.

Maybe I'll buy SH5 after spending 1 year with the cracked version, and still being satisfied.

[cuervo111]

What im saying is I lost all my save data from SH3, CoD, and many other games, the only game that I didnt lost my save data from was the mmo, which was a DRM game.

I spent 100s of hours playing SH3, everything was lost. I do not like games that save to my HDD, hence why Im a fan of DRM. It saved my ass in guild wars. I dont know anyone that doesnt have a constant connection to the internet so that argument makes no sense to me. I built a new machine, installed the game again, right back to where I left off on the other machine. So much better than the way games used to be.

Only exceptions I think are people on dialup, which is still nuts to me, there's so few of them now that game dev's dont worry about them anymore, and thats how it should be, things need to keep moving forward. And people that use their laptops in hotels, and really, how many of them are playing SH on a laptop in a hotel room?

Trenken, I think you are confusing DRM with a feature you happen to find useful. They can implement save games on a server, optionally, for those who want to do it. Hey, I'd like that too.

DRM is about artificially imposing limitations in the use of the software you paid for.

There have been lots of examples of people right here that may not be able to play SH5 because of this DRM, i don't think it's fair just to ignore their issues because things should move forward. This is going backwards, they have the technology to run the game, but they won't be able to do it just becouse of some genius' DRM idea!!

[cuervo111]

The writing is on the wall, it has been for some time. There have been several public outcries in response to ridiculous limitations imposed by DRM. No, I don't think a letter would do any good. Ubi is aware of the fact people hate this kind of crap, but they decided to go ahead anyway. Heck, they took it to the next level.

1 thing left to do, and that is vote with your wallet. If you feel like sending a message, that's the only one that they are going to notice, apparently.

I see your point. However I don't think voting with our wallet will be a solution in the long term. They will just say the game was not succesful and there won't be a SH6.

Of course, I'm not claiming I have a solution to this, other that a community financed project. Just dreaming... :)

[ETR3(SS)]

What im saying is I lost all my save data from SH3, CoD, and many other games, the only game that I didnt lost my save data from was the mmo, which was a DRM game.

I spent 100s of hours playing SH3, everything was lost. I do not like games that save to my HDD, hence why Im a fan of DRM. It saved my ass in guild wars. I dont know anyone that doesnt have a constant connection to the internet so that argument makes no sense to me. I built a new machine, installed the game again, right back to where I left off on the other machine. So much better than the way games used to be.

Only exceptions I think are people on dialup, which is still nuts to me, there's so few of them now that game dev's dont worry about them anymore, and thats how it should be, things need to keep moving forward. And people that use their laptops in hotels, and really, how many of them are playing SH on a laptop in a hotel room?

Please list these limitations, because as far as im aware, the only one is the constant connection, and as I said in a previous post, there are so few PC gamers these days that do not have a constant connection to the internet that you just cant worry about the ones that dont anymore.

My grandmother has a PC with constant connection to the internet. I would think most PC gamers with a modern machine to even play these games would be on the net all the time. Everyone I know is.

1. Define what DRM is for us all please.

2. Define what an MMO is and what a simulation is.

3. If having a computer die and losing data is a viable reason for online saves, should not windows/linux/mac OSX info be stored on a remote server as well?

4. Do you know ALL the PC gamers in the world?

5. Myself a former submariner, does that mean that soldiers and sailors on deployment should not have the ability to play games in their off time?

[Thomen]

What im saying is I lost all my save data from SH3, CoD, and many other games, the only game that I didnt lost my save data from was the mmo, which was a DRM game.


What you need to understand is that:
DRM A ≠ DRM B
You keep saying DRM as if there was only one kind of DRM.

Furthermore, the constant connection requierement for an MMO is different from the requirements for a single player game.
Can the MMO requierements seen as a DRM scheme? Certainly.
Can it function without a constant connection? No!

Different kind of games, different requirements.


I spent 100s of hours playing SH3, everything was lost. I do not like games that save to my HDD, hence why Im a fan of DRM. It saved my ass in guild wars.

Again, different kind of games, different requirements.

A server side save would not have changed a thing. The saves were corrupted by the game not by your hardware.


I dont know anyone that doesnt have a constant connection to the internet so that argument makes no sense to me. I built a new machine, installed the game again, right back to where I left off on the other machine. So much better than the way games used to be.

Only exceptions I think are people on dialup, which is still nuts to me, there's so few of them now that game dev's dont worry about them anymore, and thats how it should be, things need to keep moving forward. And people that use their laptops in hotels, and really, how many of them are playing SH on a laptop in a hotel room?

I know plenty of people without a permanent connection. Not only here in the US, but also abroad. And I do use one of my laptops also when traveling abroad. But thanks to people that bend over backwards to every new technological advancement, regardless of what kind of brain dead idea it is, we get stuff like the OSP or whatever it is called.

Rather then saying " Suck it up, because I can play and that is all I care about", you should sit back and think about what is happening.

In a niche like subsims, even 20% less sale has a big impact. Games like that live by their communities, and word of mouth advertisement has a big impact on who is going to buy a product or not.

[piri_reis]

Don't Feed the Troll :nope:

[floundericiousWA]

Only exceptions I think are people on dialup, which is still nuts to me, there's so few of them now that game dev's dont worry about them anymore, and thats how it should be, things need to keep moving forward. And people that use their laptops in hotels, and really, how many of them are playing SH on a laptop in a hotel room?

Who gives two cents if it makes sense to you, that's your life and your circumstances. Don't be so self-centered. At least have a little common decency and respect the life and circumstances of other people.

I want data to back up this factual assertion of there being so few people on dialup. You're talking out of your *** as far as I'm concerned.

[arkroyal]

:down:If this is on SH5 I will not be buying the game:down:

[kapitan_zur_see]

Everyone loves user created content, it's my favorite part of games. I play a game on the xbox called forza 3, its a racing game. I hang out and just paint cars all day and sell them to people.

But this is all done through an in game system. The dev tools are built into the game for use to use. Its very cool, maybe they will put something out like this for SH5?

Charge maybe $10-20 for it, and suddenly you dont need to be a modder to make new things, you've got a tool to help you do it.

What we, modders, have achieved with SH3-SH4 obviously goes way beyond a mere dev tools will ever do, with the exception of true SDK which is rarely seen. It goes beyond what yours simple aformentioned "dev tools" could achieve. We're doing far more than simply changing textures... anything far beyond that and you'll need to alter lots of different files hence it start to be called "modding" and it starts to get messy with auto-update systems and DRM (potentially, of course...).
You don't even know what you're talking about when it comes to modding, period. Dev tools would be used to mod games, so what the point in saying "modding is gone" then?!? Contradiction here IMO. :damn:

Using mods or EVEN MAKING them makes up for a 70% of the pleasure for a hell lot of people here if not more. No real way for me to mod a simulation? that's half the interest taken away, no buy, period.

You're nothing but an annoyance now, obstinately defending that DRM with a stubborn mind refusing to see it has but no benefits to the user, modding allowed or not! trying to sell it to us like you had benefits involved in DRM and at the expense of respect toward people, to top it off... What's the f*^$g point in acting this way??



If you're on dialup, well these games arent made for you. Go play checkers online or something.
I'm personnaly getting fed up of your blatant "you don't have broadband in 2010? you don't have money you old fart!!! get lost, you poor peasant, don't stop progress!" kind of tone :stare:
I'm really not into people that dares to almost insult people as respectable as subsim members here...

[Galanti]

I hang out and just paint cars all day and sell them to people.

Ah...now it's starting to make sense...Ubisoft is after your own heart.

[trenken]

Who gives two cents if it makes sense to you, that's your life and your circumstances. Don't be so self-centered. At least have a little common decency and respect the life and circumstances of other people.

I want data to back up this factual assertion of there being so few people on dialup. You're talking out of your *** as far as I'm concerned.

http://webupon.com/web-talk/dial-up-internet-is-becoming-obsolete/

That will tell you all you need to know. If you're using dial up, well thats fine, but the world is not going to wait for you to upgrade. Noone is insulting anyone that has it, im simply stating a fact that is going away, game dev's are helping to facilitate this. They've been trying to do that for years and it's getting to the point now where you cant even play single player games without a good connection.

People used to love record albums too you know, and guess what, tapes and then CDs still came out and killed the albums off. Now those people are reduced to having to search vintage shops for their albums. There's where you're going to be in a couple years searching for offline only games when noone is msking them anymore.

The same is happening now with games. Not quite sure what is so difficult to understand about that. If you dont have a constant internet connection, well you have 3 options, complain about it on a message board which will not solve anything, find a way to get a constant connection, or find another hobby.

Thats the way its going to be. This campaign to try and halt the progression of technology is a waste of time. All games will eventually be online only whether you like it or not. Ive got a close friend that blames the world for all his problems, I cant relate to that. Change is going to happen, its happening with SH5, so im not going to complain about it, ill figure out a way to work with it.

[ETR3(SS)]

1. Define what DRM is for us all please.

2. Define what an MMO is and what a simulation is.

3. If having a computer die and losing data is a viable reason for online saves, should not windows/linux/mac OSX info be stored on a remote server as well?

4. Do you know ALL the PC gamers in the world?

5. Myself a former submariner, does that mean that soldiers and sailors on deployment should not have the ability to play games in their off time? Please be so kind as to answer these for us. :DL

[BulSoldier]

When people stop buying games because they req constant connection to internet the makers will reconsider.Furthermore the drm wont increase the sales, it will probably decrease them because many wont buy games because of it.
So esentially more ppl will stop play games at all, the pirates will keep playing illegaly and the publisher will have smaller profits.
Sorry if my logic is spoiled but thats the way i see things.The inclusion of drm wont make many ppl buy games, but will make many STOP buying them.

[floundericiousWA]

http://webupon.com/web-talk/dial-up-internet-is-becoming-obsolete/

That will tell you all you need to know.

Wow, answer a request for data to back up your "no one uses dial up" with an opinion piece about how no one should use dial up.

:yeah: Overachieve, trenken, you're doin' a heckuva job!

[trenken]

Wow, answer a request for data to back up your "no one uses dial up" with an opinion piece about how no one should use dial up.

:yeah: Overachieve, trenken, you're doin' a heckuva job!

Say what you want, you can pretend all day that single player only games will never need a constant connection, or that everyone is still using dial up, you're simply wrong.

But whatever helps you sleep at night. I know in 2 years you'll be one of those sad saps still looking for offline games. It's a thing of the past, its your problem alone if you cant accept the new trend. Noone is going to write any sad songs about people still using dial up, sorry.

[BulSoldier]

But what about ppl that for one reason or another have no internet connection at the moment.I may be dont need internet at the moment, may be i just want to play some games on the pc and dont need the internet to read forums,news or whatever.Why i have to pay Internet provider in order to play i game i bought ?

[tater]

Requiring a constant connection to play an OFFLINE game is absurd, and not progress.

Writing off people who travel on business? I know at mommy's house you have 24/7 connectivity, but on that flight to Tokyo it gets mighty boring, and a multi-hour game is just the trick sometimes.

There is simply no reason for a constant check. As a VOLUNTARY feature for save games, etc. Awesome idea. The whole idea of online saves is NOT to protect from hardware failures—many of us use off-site backups anyway (Mozy, Carbonite, etc)—it's to allow you to pick up a game to played at home while traveling. I play a campaign, then I can load up my save game on the laptop in the airport, then play for 5 hours? That would rock. Sorry, my game is going to hang while it tries to connect in the middle of the PTO. The only real plus of online saves rendered moot.

The primary reason for this DRM scheme, IMO, is not to reduce piracy. It's for marketing data. Ubi will know which of their games you play. They'll know what hours you prefer to play, and for how long. They'll know you die a lot and reload saves (and design more twitch games for you!). They can use this data to decide what direction to go gaming wise. That's the point of discount cards at the grocery store, for example. It's to track your shopping habits.

[simsurfer]

http://www.failpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/beatingdeadhorse.gif

[BulSoldier]

The only difference is that at the store they dont tell you that you cant buy unless you use the card...

[trenken]

But what about ppl that for one reason or another have no internet connection at the moment.I may be dont need internet at the moment, may be i just want to play some games on the pc and dont need the internet to read forums,news or whatever.Why i have to pay Internet provider in order to play i game i bought ?

Like I said, you want technology to just stop progressing for you? That's absurd. Some people will left behind by technology. It's always been that way.

What about all those people that were still using rabbit ears to get a cable signal when it all switched to digital last year? They got left behind, it's their problem to deal with now.

[jclasper]

I notice how Trenken always avoids answering questions and continually defends DRM. I am one of the boring old farts and have been playing games since pong I have a very stable always on connection But no desire to play online it just does not interest me. If it did then i would not be against a connection to play the game however this is not the case I want to be able to play a game in single player mode that goes not mean i want a publisher to tell me oh yes we will let you play |It is not for them to decide it is for me. I agree piracy is a bad thing and something needs to be done but these draconian measures just make me sick of being treated like a criminal why is it that the honest majority have to be made to suffer for the sins of the minority and its not just with games its like this in real life just look at the security measures taken by governments curtailing our freedom
In Europe we have the human rights act In the US the constitution they both give us the right in our respective areas to free speech and not to have govt interfere in our lives so why should we roll over and let a corperation invade our privacy just to be able to play a game
If we all beleved as trenken then the end result is 24/7 monitoring by govt and big business

[tater]

PS—stop harping on the dial-up red herring. It's not about that. The people here download mods, for example. Not even possible with dialup unless you are remarkably masochistic given typical mod sizes these days that change perhaps a majority of the stock game files.

DRM at some level? Fine.

Phoning home? That's even fine.

It doesn't need to be in constant touch.

BTW, the save games will only be useful assuming saved game files are good data to start with and don't break the game like they have in both recent SH games. Saving a corrupted file on the net helps no one.

[KG_Jag]

Does the dead horse represent some posters or the game?

[sabretwo]

I dont know anyone that doesnt have a constant connection to the internet so that argument makes no sense to me. I built a new machine, installed the game again, right back to where I left off on the other machine. So much better than the way games used to be.

Only exceptions I think are people on dialup, which is still nuts to me, there's so few of them now that game dev's dont worry about them anymore, and thats how it should be, things need to keep moving forward. And people that use their laptops in hotels, and really, how many of them are playing SH on a laptop in a hotel room?:doh:

I guess you don't travel much. A LOT of the world beyond North America and Europe have bad Internet infrastructure.

(Yes, UBI, there is a world outside North America and Europe and they do buy games too!)

Even in the US and Europe infrastructure is limited in many places...

My business partners and I own a $1M property in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I take my family up there at least thirty days a year. What's our Internet connection up there? satellite. Have you ever tried the Internet on a satellite connection when its raining and overcast for three days straight?

[Thomen]

Well, lets see how many people in the US had broadband by June 09?

79,014,100 Internet broadband connections as of June/09, per ITU

compared to:


227,719,000 Internet users as of Aug/09, 74.1% penetration, N-O.


That doesn't look like most to me.. :hmmm:

Now, lets see how many play online games..


Almost 64 percent of Americans have played a video game in the past six months versus only 53 percent who have gone out to see a movie, according to a report from market research firm NPD Group.
.....
One factor for the surge in gaming is the number of new outlets, such as social networks and online gaming sites, said the report. Around 10 percent of people surveyed have played video games on a social network, while five percent have paid to download games online.



So, thats 10% that played games online. And that number includes every damn game that is out there and playable over the Inet.

[BulSoldier]

I notice how Trenken always avoids answering questions and continually defends DRM. I am one of the boring old farts and have been playing games since pong I have a very stable always on connection But no desire to play online it just does not interest me. If it did then i would not be against a connection to play the game however this is not the case I want to be able to play a game in single player mode that goes not mean i want a publisher to tell me oh yes we will let you play |It is not for them to decide it is for me. I agree piracy is a bad thing and something needs to be done but these draconian measures just make me sick of being treated like a criminal why is it that the honest majority have to be made to suffer for the sins of the minority and its not just with games its like this in real life just look at the security measures taken by governments curtailing our freedom
In Europe we have the human rights act In the US the constitution they both give us the right in our respective areas to free speech and not to have govt interfere in our lives so why should we roll over and let a corperation invade our privacy just to be able to play a game
If we all beleved as trenken then the end result is 24/7 monitoring by govt and big business

Well they dont force you to buy the game, but the conditions they will sell it to us are unacceptable.The one thing i can do to show them (apart from speaking plain words) that i dont agree with the conditions and i will buy it if there arent and drm is to not buy it.When this is done in enough numbers and backed up with explanation it will give them the right message.

[Task Force]

Hmm. wonder if the iphone version comes with DRM.:rotfl2: or whatever the hell there calling it. lol

[Thomen]

Hmm. wonder if the iphone version comes with DRM.:rotfl2: or whatever the hell there calling it. lol

Ad slogan:
There is an app for that! :D

[Letum]

Removed from sticky?

[GREY WOLF 3]

Trenken
It seems we are old boring farts' at 61 im not old boring fart maybe:03: but if somebody said 2+2=4 lets check my maths:hmmm: you probally say its 5 stop please repeating yourself to every question:wah::wah::wah: its boring.Go get a life stop pissing everyone off.

[floundericiousWA]

Well, lets see how many people in the US had broadband by June 09?
Quote:
79,014,100 Internet broadband connections as of June/09, per ITU
compared to:

Quote:
227,719,000 Internet users as of Aug/09, 74.1% penetration, N-O.


Much obliged Thomen... hey, that minority of people who don't have broadband need to get with the program, seriously! I mean, like wow, how could they possibly not have broadband!?!?!

FWIW, I have FIOS and only had a problem for a few hours about twice in the last year... even so, this is a bone headed move by UBI. Again, as others have mentioned..the save online/play on any computer thing is actually an interesting concept...but why does my access to my singleplayer game require constant access to the UBI servers? :doh::doh::doh:

I'm thinking I'm about done feeding the troll.

His argument is "I've got mine, that's what I care about. If you're complaining, you suck because you're not as cool as me."

[floundericiousWA]

Hmm. wonder if the iphone version comes with DRM.:rotfl2: or whatever the hell there calling it. lol


I wonder if the iPAD will end up with some cool deal where DRM is not necessary, so games and media can be used through it without the 2000000 layers of logins, monitors, security programs, more logins, etc.

[Thomen]

Much obliged Thomen... hey, that minority of people who don't have broadband need to get with the program, seriously! I mean, like wow, how could they possibly not have broadband!?!?!

FWIW, I have FIOS and only had a problem for a few hours about twice in the last year... even so, this is a bone headed move by UBI. Again, as others have mentioned..the save online/play on any computer thing is actually an interesting concept...but why does my access to my singleplayer game require constant access to the UBI servers? :doh::doh::doh:

I'm thinking I'm about done feeding the troll.

His argument is "I've got mine, that's what I care about. If you're complaining, you suck because you're not as cool as me."

You are most welcome. :up:

The broadband coverage sucks donkey balls. I just need to move 10 miles further west, north or south and I am stuck on dial-up.. and I live 40 miles away from DC.

Funny thing? There are two major broadband hubs withhin 20 miles of here, but none of these services beyond a few miles outside the city limits.

[Thomen]

I wonder if the iPAD will end up with some cool deal where DRM is not necessary, so games and media can be used through it without the 2000000 layers of logins, monitors, security programs, more logins, etc.

There are games for Mac? :o

/jk :D

[ETR3(SS)]

I notice how Trenken always avoids answering questions and continually defends DRM. He brings up a good point, so I'll answer my own questions for you.



1. Define what DRM is for us all please.
Digital Rights Management legal
(DRM) Any technology used to limit the use of software (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/software), music, movies or other digital data. This generally relies on some interaction between the media and the system that plays it. For example, video DVDs (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/DVDs) usually include a region code (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/region+code). If this does not match the player's region code, the player will refuse to play the disc.

Computer games sometimes use DRM technologies to limit the number of systems the game can be installed on by requiring authentication with an online server. Most games with this restriction allow three or five installs, although some allow an installation to be 'recovered' when the game is uninstalled. This not only limits users who have more than three or five computers in their homes (seeing as the rights of the software developers allow them to limit the number of installations), but can also prove to be a problem if the user has to unexpectedly perform certain tasks like upgrading operating systems or reformatting the computer's hard drive, tasks which, depending on how the DRM is implemented, count a game's subsequent reinstall as a new installation, making the game potentially unusable after a certain period even it is only used on a single computer.

2. Define what an MMO is and what a simulation is.
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMOG) is a video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and feature at least one persistent world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_world).

A simulation video game describes a diverse super-category of computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_game) and video games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game), generally designed to closely simulate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_simulation) aspects of a real or fictional reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality). Let's take that a step further as it applies to this thread.

Vehicle simulations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_simulation_game)
A genre of video game where players experience driving a vehicle. This includes flight simulators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_simulators), racing games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_games), and games that involve controlling other vehicles like tanks, trains, or boats.3. If having a computer die and losing data is a viable reason for online saves, should not windows/linux/mac OSX info be stored on a remote server as well? If we all went this way we would never lose any of our data...oh except when the server crashes. Ask a lot of the members here about the great Subsim crash.:up:


4. Do you know ALL the PC gamers in the world? I would say that no you don't. You know your friends and colleagues which more than likely have similar tastes and interests to you, hence they're your friends. Therefore you can not speak for everyone.



5. Myself a former submariner, does that mean that soldiers and sailors on deployment should not have the ability to play games in their off time? I'll leave this one for you still.:up:

[jclasper]

You know he still wont reply but then again he knows its a waste of time because he cant defend his arguments lol

[melendir]

I hate the idea of repeated online authentication.
Why shouldn't one online activation be enough?

[BulSoldier]

Ive never understood the limited installs thing.I myself have (and probably many here) sh3 so many times and so almost everything on my pc.

But thats a bit offtopic.

Anyway it is clear that this (as far as it concerns us) drm thing is bad and limiting game experience software.

[Bungmiester]

This is very bad news indeed, I have used steam to play Empire Total War and have bought Rise of Flight and have found numourous problems with this on line conection crap, on the following points.
1, You cannot revert the game to previous patches, once a game has been patched you always have to play with the latest updated version of the game. This can screw up your game, as it did for some people playing Empire. Go look on the steam forums and you will find people who could run the game with no problems on patch 1.4 but when patch 1.5 was released totally porked there game. The only saving grace is that you can play the game OFFLINE:up:.
2, Rise of Flight, this is a very nice game if ur into flight sims lovely graphics nice flight model, but is porked by erratic game behavior, due to needing a permanant on line connection, joystick profile getting corrupted, a bug where there servers time you out mid mission and crashes the game, to name but a few issues that people have been having, I do believe that in there next patch that are doing away with the permanant online connection. :yeah:
So I for one will be giving SH5 a Wide Birth:rotfl2: until they wake up and smell the coffee as they will be opening a real can of worms with this one, SO LONG UBI

[johan_d]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBVCdXlu8

posted by steam-france... perhaps a steam version is comming soon.. so all problems solved.

[Bungmiester]

Yep just looked on my steam account trailers there, will be interesting to see what develops, if it goes to an offline option I will buy, otherwise no wayyyyyy:salute:

[Onkel Neal]

DRM at some level? Fine.

Phoning home? That's even fine.

It doesn't need to be in constant touch.

BTW, the save games will only be useful assuming saved game files are good data to start with and don't break the game like they have in both recent SH games. Saving a corrupted file on the net helps no one.



I think of all the opinions expressed on this, yours most closely matches my own.

[Sailor Steve]

Much obliged Thomen... hey, that minority of people who don't have broadband need to get with the program, seriously! I mean, like wow, how could they possibly not have broadband!?!?!
I have a friend who lives in Grantsville, Utah, Just thirty miles from Salt Lake City. Nobody has laid the cables out there, and any time he asks he's told it's just too expensive.

So, no broadband.

[Tigrone]

I am very uncomfortable with the requirement to have a Ubisoft account and to be continously logged-in to it while using the game. It becomes an on-line game. I do not play online games. I am uncomfortable with giving a commercial vendor the amount of personal and use information that seems to be implied. I do not like the idea of being dependent on their good will or existence to able to play the game at all.

I avoid being continuously connected to the Internet for security reasons and for performance reasons. My normal practice is to clear my PC of anything latent, running in the background, and to disconnect from the web before loading a game.

I have Verizon high speed DSL, but it losses its connection periodically for up to a minute or 2, several times a day, occasionally requiring a modem reboot; or, it lags, especially later in the evening.

I also have Verizon high speed wireless, but it can lose its connection briefly or suffer lag too. Also, it is not as fast, as the DSL.

I find connections through online servers increase lag time.

This is something that will cause me not to buy SH5 if it comes true. I dislike that very much. I was really looking forward to it. I have owned every title or variation in SH or Command AOD, since they began. I am a longtime fan of sub sims and flight sims. Right now, Il2-46 and SH 3 & 4 are the games I always keep on my PC.

At least I will not need to pay to get a new PC to be up to speed for the new game's specs. But, that does not make me feel any better; I was really looking forward to SH5. I hope my understanding of this is wrong, and I'll see how it plays out after SH5 releases, but I am not hopeful after reading all the links and articles about it.

[subdba]

Well, add my name to the list of people who will not be buying SH5. Too bad really, I have bought and enjoyed every SH title (except for SH2) and all their respective add-ons. I could stomach an initial (one-time) online activation but the concept of having to authenticate everytime I want to play is unacceptable to me. I will check once in awhile to see if a GOY or something like that ever comes out without this terrible scheme and consider buying SH5 if it get cleaned up down the road.

[Seaman_Hornsby]

I'm shocked at this turn of events. I have Steam, and a few games through it, but it is not my favorite DRM system. But the critical thing that makes Steam work is the OFFLINE MODE. You can still play your paid-for games if your connection goes down or is unavailable.

For Ubisoft to implement a constant-connection system seems baffling. I was looking forward very much to SH5 and being able to run around the boat, but now I'm going to have to adopt a wait-and-see approach. :down:

[jbeatty]

I like so many other IT admin have time to play games while waiting for a server to go down or a user to forget their paswword. to break up the time I play SH III/IV. Can't do it over the internet at work!!

If I can't play it form the desktop, I won't play. Oh well, SH V sounded so interesting and fun.

Thanks UbiSoft for Peeing in my Wheaties. You just put SH V and flushed trhe TDU.

[maurader]

I like so many other IT admin have time to play games while waiting for a server to go down or a user to forget their paswword. to break up the time I play SH III/IV. Can't do it over the internet at work!!

If I can't play it form the desktop, I won't play. Oh well, SH V sounded so interesting and fun.

Thanks UbiSoft for Peeing in my Wheaties. You just put SH V and flushed trhe TDU.

Wow you can play SH4 at work but can't get on the Internet at work.
My guess is you shouldn't be playing SH4 at work either.
But the new DRM method would log what you are doing at work. LOL.

Pretty cushy IT job though. My IT job is so busy I don't even have time to pee in my Wheaties

[Webster]

IT guys are like firemen, lots of slow periods followed by shear panic and lots of screaming lol.

[maurader]

IT guys are like firemen, lots of slow periods followed by shear panic and lots of screaming lol.

Maybe that's why we like sub sims.
Sounds similar to life on a submarine.

[Alienfresser]

No.

Submariner's have a much higher survival rate then IT-Guys.

[Captain Wreckless]

I'm betting all PC games will go to online authentication eventually. True, there are a few people on the planet who play games in their doublewide without internet accesss, and there are occasions where internet access is not available to play, but the PC gamer is usually connected to the web 24/7.

Unless you live in a very rural area or the Alaskan interior. Luckily I live outside of Fairbanks AK and have a cable modem and decent internet access. But there are areas here where cable/DSL is not available due to logistical issues and all there is, is dialup. I'm sure there are plenty of places in the lower 48 that have the same problem.

CW :arrgh!:

[sergei]

But the critical thing that makes Steam work is the OFFLINE MODE. You can still play your paid-for games if your connection goes down or is unavailable.

Yeah, and this seems to be the point that Trenken is missing.
Not all DRMs are created equal.

[Arclight]

No.

Submariner's have a much higher survival rate then IT-Guys.
HA! No kidding. :lol:

[onelifecrisis]

No.

Submariner's have a much higher survival rate then IT-Guys.
:rotfl2:

[bratkorv]

Removed from sticky?


Well done Letum :yep:

[Marka Ragnos]

I bought a new pc for silent hunter 5 :doh::doh:

I don't know what to say, constant internet connection, games saved online?
If that is our future then it's a future without me :s

[theluckyone17]

There's something nagging me about this DRM business. It seems that Ubisoft can protect their copyright through some other method than requiring their software clients to be connected to a central server constantly while running. We've all had to deal with the disk checks, the Securom, blah blah blah.

Those benefits of a constant connection? Saved games on a server, installing the game on multiple computers, running without a disk. These seem like minor benefits, balanced by the need to have a constant connection.

So why do they need a constant connection? Why can't an occasional check on startup (similiar to Steam) be used? Why not a check at the initial start of the game, then drop the connection?

In short, I'm nervous about what else Ubisoft's got planned for that constant connection. Are they looking at feeding advertisements? "While SH5 loads, here's some words from our sponsors"? What information are they collecting? Are they manipulating my computer in the background? What else are they going to use it for? A year from now, I don't want to hear an Ubisoft exec saying "Well, we've got these constant connections to all of our gamer's PCs... let's use it now!"

Maybe I'm not trusting, maybe I'm jaded. But after the Sony fiasco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal), I'm a little nervous when DRM requiring a constant connection to my PC is introduced. Toss in outright mistakes like the Rainbox 6 issue (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/07/ubisoft-drm-snafu-reminds-us-whats-wrong-with-pc-gaming.ars), and I get even more nervous.

In short, I don't want to hear promises. I want it spelled out, exactly what they plan on using this connection for, in writing, preferably in the EULA.

If this push for "OSP" is a direct result of piracy, then Ubisoft is simply looking to verify their trust in us, the gamers. If that's the case, then I'm going to need more trust in Ubisoft.

[IanC]

I bought a new pc for silent hunter 5 :doh::doh:

I don't know what to say, constant internet connection, games saved online?
If that is our future then it's a future without me :s

Man that sucks. But take comfort in knowing that one day SH5 will be DRM free. So you didn't waste your money.

[BowfinSS287]

Is the DRM copy protection system for SH V
the same system used by Farcry 2 ?

[The Enigma]

This S#$cks!!! :mad:
I was delaying the purchase of my new pc for SH5.
Just to be sure to buy the right hardware.

I will never agree on buying a game witch needs constant online connection.
I'm never online while playing a game.
Playing offline has the advantage of switching of my virus-scanner and firewall, increasing the overall performance.
Also, I do not wish to save my data online.

I hate these so called 'terrorist protection needs' excuses.
It's all and alone for gaining even more money for big companies.
Collecting all kind of data about your customers and their habits and then selling that data for big bucks.

Is this the way to say thank you for purchasing legal software?
What fool I've been for always paying for my games. :damn:
UBI, your attempt to stop piracy is pushing even more people to the wrong side of the line.

I will not buy SH5 as long as this form of DRM is active.
Sad, I was very happy at first when the new game was announced.
Now I'm left behind deeply disappointment.
Thanks for that.

[Arclight]

Is the DRM copy protection system for SH V
the same system used by Farcry 2 ?
Nope, this is fresh crap. :)

[smoke]

Well that is it for me also. Just cancelled my preorder. To bad, i was really looking forward to this new edition.

[KL-alfman]

@ enigma, smoke and so many others:
be assured the majority of this board feel the same way:
disappointed and disillusioned.
but we have hope still!

UBI can't make this true.
they will abort their OSP sometimes. and then we are ready to buy. :salute:

[prowler3]

So...we go from the Starforce abortion of SH3 to this? That's money saved, I guess, as I won't ever pay for software with that kind of BS.

Thanks anyway, UBI...I'll skip the intrusive BS. Hope it works out for you. LOL!

[DD]

It's unfortunate. However, to be frank if this is the new norm for Ubisoft titles than whether SH5 succeeds or not is irrelevant to me because I won't be purchasing SH6 7 or 8 either so long as this system in place.

I own every title of the SH franchise up to this point, and have hooked several other people on it as well, and they all take the same view on Ubis new "services".

:down:

[Santini]

Wow...

If this is true, I fear I may have to vote with my wallet and not pay for the game.


:wah:

[Nightowl]

If DRM is used in SH5, I will not buy it, Period. It will be the 1st SH series that I won't buy. This is the last straw. I don't care how good the game turns out to be. When I play my games, I turn off my Internet connection. I don't want any updates, etc coming on while I am playing games, they can find some other way to protect their games than DRM. Thank You. :down:

[brett25]

I am so freaking done with corporate BS. All the bailout money, now corporations have won the power to finance any candidate in any election...It never ends. Corporate BS.

I will not buy this game if I have to remain connected your servers, I don't care how much eye candy you wave at us. The mod community has done more for this series than you ever will

[Sgtmonkeynads]

That's the catch 22. Without "THEM" there is nothing for the mod community. I love and respect every single guy and gal that can do things to make my games better, but there is only so much they can do with the tools they have.
The recent events of the Sh5 threads can not be helping the protest for Sh3's SDK to be handed over to modders, so there's another catch. In the long run, we will be playing the same 50 year old sim 40 years from now.

[GerritJ9]

Clearly UBI have learned NOTHING from the BoontyBox fiasco with Il2 4.05m......

[Letum]

Clearly UBI have learned NOTHING from the BoontyBox fiasco with Il2 4.05m......


For those not in the know:

The IL2 Pe2 addon from Ubisoft had a spyware program in the .exe.
It reported to Ubi how long the game was run for and what other games
where detected on the user's PC as well as other info.
It used a lot of memory and caused crashes ever 20mins. or so.

You can imagine how the IL2 community reacted.

[deLusan]

I was psyched and ready to buy. No more ... I'm taking a stand against this kind of stuff. I'll buy only from companies that that DONT do this.

[IanC]

For those not in the know:

The IL2 Pe2 addon from Ubisoft had a spyware program in the .exe.
It reported to Ubi how long the game was run for and what other games
where detected on the user's PC as well as other info.


:o are you joking?

[BulSoldier]

Couldnt that lead to some kind of lawsuits ? Jeeh and we are supposed to buy a game from the same ppl that give to their customers spyware.

[wingcom]

What happens if i want to play on a cross country plane flight????

[Webster]

Couldnt that lead to some kind of lawsuits ? Jeeh and we are supposed to buy a game from the same ppl that give to their customers spyware.

in most cases they slip a line or two about it in the ULA so you agree to accept this spyware as part of the game install

[GerritJ9]

No, the spyware IL2 4.05m .exe is not a joke- 4.05m was originally only intended to be released in Russia. After many requests, it was released through UBI for the non-FSU countries, as download-only. Fair enough so far. However.... instead of a simple direct download, a separate programme, BoontyBox, had to be downloaded first, which controlled download and installation/activation. Here the first problems cropped up: some could not even download 4.05m with BoontyBox, others (me included) could not install the download through BoontyBox. Luthier of RRG spent a LOT of his own time finding a workaround, and discovered that the UBI version of the .exe was much larger than the one 1C had sent to UBI. Together with invisible bits which BoontyBox installed this .exe sent data to UBI regarding time Il2 4.05m was used etc etc- assuming the new .exe would allow the upgraded IL2 to run reliably in the first place; quite often, it didn't. The solution to get 4.05m to run reliably was to use the 4.04m .exe. Needless to say, the excrement hit the ventilator and many fans who would otherwise have bought 4.05m didn't, losing UBI and ultimately 1C quite a few sales (not to mention goodwill). Wouldn't be surprised if that was a principal reason for 1C to decide not to use UBI as distributor when SoW is released.

[ahaysub]

Remember, most of UBI's stuff requires 2 to 4 patches/upgrades before it even work properly. This will go on for months.

Aside from all the lockups, lost games, non functional features and blue screens, we'll have to now go through the cumbersome process of rebooting and reconnecting EACH TIME IT HAPPENS!!!! What a cluster f%$# !!!!!!

Silent Hunter is a great franchise but there are limits to the level of frustrations people will willingly pay for. This is supposed to be entertainment, A GAME; not a career, cause, statement, or marathon.

There is a minority of folks willing to "fight the good fight" and try to beat this mess. To those people, the "game" is fighting with the mess and the workarounds. There are many excellent ways to spend you entertainment dollars for the majority of "gamers".

My 2 cents........

[hocking]

Just another frustration with playing PC games. It is frustrations like this that has nearly completely killed PC gaming. It is just to frustrating for non-techies to fool around with all the trouble that is associated with playing PC games. These new DRM methods just adds another layer of frustration that keeps people away, and pushes more people away that used to play PC games. Our industry is in deep deep trouble I am afraid. I find myself buying a new PC game about 2 or 3 times a year now when I used to buy about 6 or 7 a year. Ouch!!!!

If you can't come up with a better system to stop piracy then just don't make the game. Don't release something that is going to cause everybody a bunch of trouble just to play. Just go away.

[kingsleyben]

No piracy, please.

The Management

[d@rk51d3]

Don't know if it's good or bad news..................... but I've been doing a little digging, and have found SH5 is already going live on-line, and patched. (dubious means, though)

I guess that gives us law abiding citizens some hope of a future fix.

(either that, or there are some big scams going)

[Reece]

Don't know if it's good or bad news..................... but I've been doing a little digging, and have found SH5 is already going live on-line, and patched. (dubious means, though)

I guess that gives us law abiding citizens some hope of a future fix.

(either that, or there are some big scams going)I would say scam, it certainly isn't released yet!:hmmm:

[walleye]

as a citizen of a former people's dictatorship, i can't decide if i should laugh or cry.

in pre 1989 romania, if you had a weapon permit, it came packaged with rude cops entering your property without your permision to check the whereabouts of your weapon(s) and ammo. you were supposed to register typewriters, copy machines and photo cameras with the local precinct. you were not allowed to posses just any kind of radio or tv set, only those that were "approved" ie certified that one couldn't receive BBC or Radio Free Europe with them. yea, you had to register those anyway. police scanners? i believe they started with seven years for that.

and that was only the crust of the cake. there were forbidden books; there were forbidden movies; there were censored songs. mass surveillance (within the technical capabilites of the era and place) was everywhere. a goddamn phone line installation came with what nowadays would be described as an EULA implying consent for wiretapping. actually, minus the "agreement" part. the law implied obedience and acceptance of wiretapping. and that was after waiting on the list for six months. it was cheap, i'll admit that.

the "west" proclaimed to stand for the exact opposite of what we were; and was ready to rain atomic weapons on our heads to ensure that this disease we called our way of life didn't take hold in their back yard.

and yet, thirty years from that time, i see things like DMCA; a year's income and jail time for a copyright infringement; CCTVs on every corner; data mining on a massive scale; "think of the children" and "freedom fries"; and WORST OF ALL, people that claim to uphold democratic and humanitarian principles saying "if you've got nothing to hide or didn't do anything wrong then you've got nothing to worry about"; do you have ANY idea how many times THAT was said in certain cellars not so long ago in my country?

you might think this is overdoing it in a discussion about game copy protection. but it's not. see, it's about control. it's about turning people into little mindless pavlov zombies; stimulus - reaction; it's about monetizing culture and demonizing any kind of human pursuit that's offering even the slightest shred of independent, personal experience. and it's not even government mandated: the big apes enable it; the private sector does the heavy lifting.

to come here and see people that have nothing against, hell, endorse third parties interfering with the way they live their daily lives. it makes me sick. maybe angleton was right and the soviets did fake their collapse in order to better conquer the world.

:damn:

[theluckyone17]

/\ Good post, and well said.

[KL-alfman]

@walleye:
post of the day!

[Brag]

Walleye is right! DRM/OSP makes me think of KGB, Stazi, Dina and other repressive institutions.

The latest: OSP = Ober Subsimmer Polizei :eek:

[melin71]

I have cancled my preorder, good luck with the game, I may buy it after it have been relesed and solution to DRM have been fixed so i dont need to stay online...and no..not talking about ubisoft fix..

[d@rk51d3]

I would say scam, it certainly isn't released yet!:hmmm:


It's not uncommon for a game (even movies) to be torrented before official release.;)

[supposedtobeworking]

100% in agreement with walleye - though I will not be buying SH5 primarily because of the inexcusable inconvenience of not being able to play it whenever, wherever and as long as I want to, this is certainly an important point to be made. As an American I am sick of continually losing my privacy more and more. I am quite sure that the government can and is monitoring whoever they want already, and now even the bloody computer game company I purchased a product from is going to be monitoring me as well? Bad enough the government is doing it, but now even the private sector is jumping on board. I sincerely hope that Ubi experiences a horrid sales loss as a result of this move so that they get the message crystal clear - their customers will not tolerate this.

[OldOakTree]

Walleye hits the nail squarely on the head....atleast it seems the regime running Britain could have even taught the stazi some tricks. If even private hobbies in life are to be scrutinized under the modern pretence that everyone is guilty until proved innocent then it seems something other than human. For this reason, on principle I will avoid any DRM game.

[IanC]

I personally think comparing a video's game protection measures to the communist oppression is a bit much... I know a guy, Russian, who refused to spy for the soviets (he was a chess player so he traveled internationally) and they ruined him. Not sure what they did to him, but when he was telling me this, he had tears in his eyes. I have a feeling if I said to him "DRM/OSP is just like what you went through" he might just slap me silly.

[Steeltrap]

I personally think comparing a video's game protection measures to the communist oppression is a bit much... I know a guy, Russian, who refused to spy for the soviets (he was a chess player so he traveled internationally) and they ruined him. Not sure what they did to him, but when he was telling me this, he had tears in his eyes. I have a feeling if I said to him "DRM/OSP is just like what you went through" he might just slap me silly.

...and he'd be right to, as a comparison of a minor inconvenience with such an impactful injustice is potentially insulting (i.e. I agree with the sentiment you've expressed).

I don't think anyone here is suggesting they're comparable, but there's a useful quote from Jefferson, I think, along the lines of:

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.

Yes, the view that DRM etc represents some major incursion in our personal rights etc is a bit excessive, but, as walleye put it, there IS a matter of principle behind it all.

As is usually the case, people rarely look beyond their immediate desires (in this case "I want a game for my PC/Xbox/whatever") to consider the longer-term implications of what they'll accept to achieve that desire.

Cheers

[IanC]

...and he'd be right to, as a comparison of a minor inconvenience with such an impactful injustice is potentially insulting (i.e. I agree with the sentiment you've expressed).

I don't think anyone here is suggesting they're comparable, but there's a useful quote from Jefferson, I think, along the lines of:

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.

Yes, the view that DRM etc represents some major incursion in our personal rights etc is a bit excessive, but, as walleye put it, there IS a matter of principle behind it all.

As is usually the case, people rarely look beyond their immediate desires (in this case "I want a game for my PC/Xbox/whatever") to consider the longer-term implications of what they'll accept to achieve that desire.

Cheers

Right. You can find many posts from me talking about how I'm against DRM/OSP on matter of principle also. But at the same time, I don't think there's anything more to read into than "we just want to make sure you have a legit copy". I don't think this is a start to anything...
I realise I'm contradicting myself btw
I need to ponder this one a little more :hmmm:

[walleye]

I personally think comparing a video's game protection measures to the communist oppression is a bit much... I know a guy, Russian, who refused to spy for the soviets (he was a chess player so he traveled internationally) and they ruined him. Not sure what they did to him, but when he was telling me this, he had tears in his eyes. I have a feeling if I said to him "DRM/OSP is just like what you went through" he might just slap me silly.


true. he might slap you silly. on the other hand, if you tell him that strangers want to know and have a say in how he uses and manages his property, you just might see something else in his eyes.

because the worst part about the old days wasn't the fear; wasn't the violence; you'll get used to that and anyway it was made to be worse than it was; no, it was the fact that they didn't want you to have anything; anything out of the ordinary, anything that was special and rare and that nobody/few else had. that you were just another ant in the anthill, same as all the others, that you were supposed to want the same things and think the same thoughts with the rest. that every bit of your life was to be planned, by others, and that you could neither do or say anything about it.

now, requiring you to ID yourself before and during playing a computer game might seem like someting trivial. i mean, if you don't want to, don't play, right?

well, maybe. but it's a GAME for heaven's sake! if FUN gets so tedious and annoying, so regulated and bureaucratized, if you essentialy have to prove your identity to the same standards required in a traffic stop TO PLAY A GAME AND TO HAVE FUN and people THINK NOTHING OF IT, to me that's a sign.

a sign of a society that's on the verge of redefining the relationship between it and the individual.

again, this is not about ubi's curly ideas on fighting piracy and used game sales. it's about people putting up with it, people finding nothing wrong with it. and yes, it's a trivial issue but smart men don't bring about change by revolution; rather by evolution.

a computer can't work without software, it's a useless piece of junk without. given this trend in thinking, that you don't own software but lease it, given the current push towards virtualisation, the cloud and all that buzz, thin dumb clients displaying screens rendered on some application provider's mainframes, where does that lead? what about the fact that more and more aspects of everyday life are intermediated by computers these days and that the trend is growing exponentially? finance, entertainment, social interaction, you name it. can you see the appeal in controlling all that? the power that derives from having the ability to deny someone access to that interaction? or to allow it?

think about it. someone's wet dream might just become reality.

[IanC]

true. he might slap you silly. on the other hand, if you tell him that strangers want to know and have a say in how he uses and manages his property, you just might see something else in his eyes. <snip>



Right, well that's the crux of it all. Is DMR/OSP more than what it is, and/or will it lead down a dark path. I'm not so sure.

[Steeltrap]

Right, well that's the crux of it all. Is DMR/OSP more than what it is, and/or will it lead down a dark path. I'm not so sure.

Yes, it's probably a rather long bow to draw, and obviously small beer compared with the many evils to be found in the world.

All the same, people might as well confront the issues they can rather than saying nothing because there are worse issues out there.

[Mikhayl]

Well no need to project ourselves in the future to see the downward spiral. Just a few years ago all games (safe for MMOs) were "self contained", you buy the box and that's it, no external intervention required. You could register the game but it was purely voluntary.
Then you have games that require an online activation.
Then you have games that require an online activation/check everytime you start the game.
And now we have games that require you to be online constantly when you play.

For SH5 I was willing to pour water in my wine and accept a one-time online activation, but as far as I'm concerned even that is crossing the line. So far I never bought a game that required me to do any external action whatsoever after buying it.

[Elder-Pirate]

^^
Please let's not add any more fuel to the fire. If maybe everyone agrees to NOT have ANY OSP/DRM period, then maybe we all can get back to our gaming here with SHV and other games possibly infected, maybe?

And you better believe UBI is reading these posts with an eye here and an eye there. :o

[Wolfehunter]

as a citizen of a former people's dictatorship, i can't decide if i should laugh or cry.

in pre 1989 romania, if you had a weapon permit, it came packaged with rude cops entering your property without your permision to check the whereabouts of your weapon(s) and ammo. you were supposed to register typewriters, copy machines and photo cameras with the local precinct. you were not allowed to posses just any kind of radio or tv set, only those that were "approved" ie certified that one couldn't receive BBC or Radio Free Europe with them. yea, you had to register those anyway. police scanners? i believe they started with seven years for that.

and that was only the crust of the cake. there were forbidden books; there were forbidden movies; there were censored songs. mass surveillance (within the technical capabilites of the era and place) was everywhere. a goddamn phone line installation came with what nowadays would be described as an EULA implying consent for wiretapping. actually, minus the "agreement" part. the law implied obedience and acceptance of wiretapping. and that was after waiting on the list for six months. it was cheap, i'll admit that.

the "west" proclaimed to stand for the exact opposite of what we were; and was ready to rain atomic weapons on our heads to ensure that this disease we called our way of life didn't take hold in their back yard.

and yet, thirty years from that time, i see things like DMCA; a year's income and jail time for a copyright infringement; CCTVs on every corner; data mining on a massive scale; "think of the children" and "freedom fries"; and WORST OF ALL, people that claim to uphold democratic and humanitarian principles saying "if you've got nothing to hide or didn't do anything wrong then you've got nothing to worry about"; do you have ANY idea how many times THAT was said in certain cellars not so long ago in my country?

you might think this is overdoing it in a discussion about game copy protection. but it's not. see, it's about control. it's about turning people into little mindless pavlov zombies; stimulus - reaction; it's about monetizing culture and demonizing any kind of human pursuit that's offering even the slightest shred of independent, personal experience. and it's not even government mandated: the big apes enable it; the private sector does the heavy lifting.

to come here and see people that have nothing against, hell, endorse third parties interfering with the way they live their daily lives. it makes me sick. maybe angleton was right and the soviets did fake their collapse in order to better conquer the world.

:damn:Great post walleye. Respect dude. :salute:

[dannygjk]

Hi,

Well, I read a large portion of the posts regarding problems related to copy protection for SH5, (and many other games). Luckily for me I don't mind playing older games; nay, I love playing older games. I was cheering every time I read a well-written objection to the extremes to which the game copy-protection schemes have come.

Count...me...out.

Dan

ps. so glad I didn't fall for the pre-order call.

[KING111]

i will not buy SH5 or Storm Of War or Rise Of Flight
because of DRM
and because we are not getting a full game in
Storm Of War and Rise Of Flight you get 1 plane to fly
and then if want to have another one to fly
you have to buy it for $3 or $4 each and SH5 only go's up to 1943
making it easy for them sell an addon from 1943 to 1945
a few months after SH5 comes out SH3 and SH4 and
il-2 sturmovik 1946 will do me for years to come as long
as the moders keep making the addons :rock::rock::rock::rock:

[Letum]

i will not buy SH5 or Storm Of War or Rise Of Flight
because of DRM
and because we are not getting a full game in
Storm Of War and Rise Of Flight you get 1 plane to fly
and then if want to have another one to fly
you have to buy it for $3 or $4 each

Where have you got your ideas about SoW?

Storm of war will NOT be published by Ubisoft. It is developed and published by 1C.
Storm of War's protection system is not yet known, but it is unlikely to be like SHV or RoF.

Storm of War ships with 11 planes and it is very unlikely that here will be a pay-per-plane system.

[KING111]

h\\p://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21564 (file://\\p://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21564)
you may have to register on the site to see it
but they are talking about pay as you go for
storm of war the same as in rise of flight

[wetwarev7]

I'd like to just throw my two cents in here in hopes that Ubi does actually read these. (or any other devs/publishers)

I don't like DRM. I'm not going to bother justifying it. If you use DRM on your game, there's a chance I'm just not gonna buy it.

Signed,
Your Customer

[Letum]

h\\p://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21564 (file://%5C%5Cp://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21564)
you may have to register on the site to see it
but they are talking about pay as you go for
storm of war the same as in rise of flight

No, Oleg mentioned "paid addons".

Il2 had paid addons; Forgotten battles, Pe2, Pacific fighters Etc.
Nothing new there.

[subsimlee]

What a great way to force people to buy future games!!!!

Simply shut down DRM server support for current sims and games....( that never crossed the minds of the Ubi suits....NNaaaaa 'course not! ):doh:

[KING111]

Letun
i may have been confused because they were
comparing it to Rise Of Flight
anyway if its got DRM i will not be buying it
like lots of others on these site
as for Ub reading these and giving a dame
i don't think the do
thats why the preiscope view looks so bad
its simplified so beginners can play it without
looking at the manual every five minutes

[OldFrenchy]

I love the various simulations that have been produced, but as a matter of principle I cannot buy into online registration that requires an internet connection to play. That would make it a rental.

Anyone familiar with the Amazon Kindle flap? The company sold online titles to download to the Kindle- digital books. One morning the owners woke up to find that Amazon had deleted the purchased content without authorization because the company had violated some copyright laws. Of course the company apologized after the customers rioted, but they did it nonetheless.

Piracy is an issue, but WallEye is putting the spotlight on the problem. At what point do you start objecting to mindless intrusion by either governments or corporations?
Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. "

I. for one, will withhold purchasing this product until they come up with a better, less intrusive solution.

OldFrenchy

[karamazovnew]

as a citizen of a former people's dictatorship, i can't decide if i should laugh or cry.

in pre 1989 romania, if you had a weapon permit, it came packaged with rude cops entering your property without your permision to check the whereabouts of your weapon(s) and ammo. you were supposed to register typewriters, copy machines and photo cameras with the local precinct. you were not allowed to posses just any kind of radio or tv set, only those that were "approved" ie certified that one couldn't receive BBC or Radio Free Europe with them. yea, you had to register those anyway. police scanners? i believe they started with seven years for that.


:damn:

It wasn't THAT bad. You might forget that everyone had to fulfill a quota. A doctor had to prevent having more than X deaths but at the same time he had to cure Y patients every month, just to prevent being kicked out. Same went for the Police. If they had too many arrests, it would look bad on their report. A lot of things were said to be put into practice, but were not. At least for "normal" people. God forbid having a beautiful "capitalist" house in Bucharest at that time. My grandfather served in the border patrols and then became village mayor. He warned people about inspections. After a while, word got out and they came after him. They didn't arrest him, no... they told him "next time when you warn them, ask them to put something aside for us, we have to make a living too". :haha: I had a video player since 1984 and tons of cassettes. I saw "1984" in 1988, I saw Jesus Christ Superstar in 1987 or so. Passing them at the airport border only costed a couple of western ciggarets. Malboro packs were a second currency.

Anyway, OSP and DRM are nothing like the communist era. Hey, we log in to use this forum, it's no different from logging in online to play a game. I highly doubt they'll use trojans to browse through our porn preferences.

[Letum]

I highly doubt they'll use trojans to browse through our porn preferences.

Don't doubt it too much.
Ubisoft have done it before to browse through your installed games.
LINK (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1252756&postcount=628)

[karamazovnew]

Don't doubt it too much.
Ubisoft have done it before to browse through your installed games.
LINK (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1252756&postcount=628)

You've just proved my case... they didn't scan for porn :haha:

But seriously now, any game with an internet connection can do that but we trust that they don't. If there will be any proof that they scan the pc for games, I'll get every Ubi game ever made, as a pirate version, install all of them and delete them just to leave them in the registry. That should keep them busy :haha:. Plus, without applying the cracks themselves, I'll still be perfectly Legal :har:

[Grothesj2]

Don't think I'll be buying this long awaited game and I've owned every single Silent Hunter to date.

[sabretwo]

I've been avoiding these threads for a few days, trying to cool down from all of this. But reading through the posts today, I keep seeing various posters referring to the DRM protest as if its an issue of choice. To all of those posters, please pay close attention to the following announcement:

FOR MANY OF US, IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF PRINCIPLE! IT'S AN ISSUE OF PRACTICAL ACCESSIBILITY...TRAVEL, BAD INTERNET, PAY-PER-MB INTERNET, ETC!!!

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS AS IF WE ALL HAVE A CHOICE ABOUT IT!

UBI DECIDED TO SQUARELY EXCLUDE MANY OF US AS CUSTOMERS...NOT ALIENATE, BUT EXCLUDE!!!

:damn::damn::damn::damn:

:nope:

(Okay, I feel better now...a little at least)

[Brag]

Sabretwo, it just shows how ignorant Ubi people are.
I used to support Ubi, I will not support idiocy. Neither will many, yes, many.

Until they come to their senses, Ubi can listen to the silence of our wallets.

Mooooo!

[Méo]

FOR MANY OF US, IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF PRINCIPLE! IT'S AN ISSUE OF PRACTICAL ACCESSIBILITY...TRAVEL, BAD INTERNET, PAY-PER-MB INTERNET, ETC!!!

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS AS IF WE ALL HAVE A CHOICE ABOUT IT!

UBI DECIDED TO SQUARELY EXCLUDE MANY OF US AS CUSTOMERS...NOT ALIENATE, BUT EXCLUDE!!!

Funny, internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent 11.5 million people from playing World of Warcraft. :hmmm:

[Steeltrap]

Funny, internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent 11.5 million people from playing World of Warcraft. :hmmm:

Which is a MMORPG, which means it requires internet. Run by Blizzard on well-supported servers.

Now explain to me why a single player subsim needs internet connection, and why we think Ubi will provide effective server support in light of previous efforts.

Then we might have something to discuss.

[Méo]

Now explain to me why a single player subsim needs internet connection

Ubisoft should be the one who has to explain this... don't you think? ;)

[Steeltrap]

Ubisoft should be the one who has to explain this... don't you think? ;)

Correct. I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to do so, however!

If you raise it, however, it's only fair for me to ask how that comparison is appropriate to this case.

Cheers

[IanC]

Funny, internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent 11.5 million people from playing World of Warcraft. :hmmm:

No, but it will prevent me and thousands of other people with bad connection, from playing SH5.

[Méo]

No, but it will prevent me and thousands of other people with bad connection, from playing SH5.

But what is exactly the type of connection required to play SHV?

[Méo]

If you raise it, however, it's only fair for me to ask how that comparison is appropriate to this case.

Because both SH5 and World of Warcraft are PC games, and both require an access (and I guess a reliable access) to internet to play.

[Arclight]

You're missing the point; it's not about how many can play it, or what type of connection is required. The point is simply that requiring a connection at all excludes some people. :yep:

[Méo]

You're missing the point; it's not about how many can play it, or what type of connection is required. The point is simply that requiring a connection at all excludes some people. :yep:

Are you sure I'm missing the point?

Cause the ''The point is simply that requiring a connection at all excludes some people'' you just said didn't prevent World of Warcraft from being a very successful title.

We could also say that the PC requirements exclude some people too.

Although an internet connection should not be as necessary as the PC requirements, they (Ubisoft) have to answer for that, I don't.

[Armistead]

Well, with the economy in the US, over 28% of people will lose their internet this year, unable to afford it. I'm not buying a game I can't play offline. We get terrible weather sometimes. We just had a terrible winter storm and our cable was out for two days. Bored, I play SH4. Once during an ice storm our cable was out for 8 days, power 5...still that's 3 days.. So what if it's a few days a year. I would hate to think I can't use my product without an online connection....that I bought whenever I want too.



Will not buy.

[Méo]

We just had a terrible winter storm

Where I live, we get terrible winter storm too!! :yep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKeWmSbDmfc

Everytime I loose internet in those, I loose electricity as well !

[gronbek]

This is crystal clear for me.

I WILL NOT BUY THE GAME if it requires constant internet connection.

BR Anders

[JScones]

Are you sure I'm missing the point?

Cause the ''The point is simply that requiring a connection at all excludes some people'' you just said didn't prevent World of Warcraft from being a very successful title.
I think you are. You can't compare an MMORPG - where the O stands for Online - to a game that's aimed primarily at single players.

People who buy WoW buy it knowing that it's a multiplayer online game. Indeed, they buy it for that reason. Thus it's a safe assumption that they believe they have the required internet connection to support playing it.

SH5 is not primarily a multiplayer online game; it's primarily a single player game. Single players have less interest in the online part. Single players prolly don't even know or care what speed their broadband connection is, because they've only ever used it to read this forum, not play a single player game.

[tonschk]

.

:DL This is crystal clear for me . I WILL BUY THE GAME :DL


.

[Méo]

I think you are. You can't compare an MMORPG

My point was that if internet, in our times, wasn't reliable, they (WoW players) would have a really hard time playing it.

[Reece]

:down:This is crystal clear for me . I WILL NOT BUY THE GAME:down:

[Ragtag]

My point was that if internet, in our times, wasn't reliable, they (WoW players) would have a really hard time playing it.

You haven't played WoW i guess. There has been ****loads of all kind of troubles both with the gameclient and the servers/connections. Anyone that claims that WoW went painfree down the road has no idea what he talks about. I'm guessing that OSP will probably work stable and fine in 4-5 years time just like WoW but i don't want to wait that long to play a singelplayer game ALONE.

[Méo]

You haven't played WoW i guess. There has been ****loads of all kind of troubles both with the gameclient and the servers/connections. Anyone that claims that WoW went painfree down the road has no idea what he talks about. I'm guessing that OSP will probably work stable and fine in 4-5 years time just like WoW but i don't want to wait that long to play a singelplayer game ALONE.

The network must somewhere have been efficient because this game has known unprecedented growth & success.

Now if you guys don't want to buy SH5 because it requires an internet connection and you think it should not, it's your choice, but it's another debate than what my point was about.

----

My point was:

Internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent millions of people around the world from playing PC games.

[Mikhayl]

The network must somewhere have been efficient because this game has known unprecedented growth & success.

Now if you guys don't want to buy SH5 because it requires an internet connection and you think it should not, it's your choice, but it's another debate than what my point was about.

----

My point was:

Internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent millions of people around the world from playing PC games.

Your point is just nonsense. People who buy MMOs are people who know they have a good connection.

People who bought SH3 and SH4 didn't care about having a connection at all. Those people who bought SH3 and SH4 and happen to have no connection, or no unlimited connection, are as much people who won't be able to play/buy SH5.

I understand people who don't mind that nonsensical DRM, but if you need to force on the obtuse to justify it, it shows that there's something rotten about it.

[Arclight]

The network must somewhere have been efficient because this game has known unprecedented growth & success.

Now if you guys don't want to buy SH5 because it requires an internet connection and you think it should not, it's your choice, but it's another debate than what my point was about.

----

My point was:

Internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent millions of people around the world from playing PC games.Not millions, but some, and that's the reason (or 1 of the reasons) people don't like it.

I'll buy it, online requirement is not an obstacle for me. Sadly I already, unknowingly, crossed that line; seems hypocritical to boycott it now. But there are still some people that are shut out this way. Doesn't matter if the same can be said for WoW, that's a whole different ball game.

[Méo]

Your point is just nonsense.

Nonsense, really?

People who buy MMOs are people who know they have a good connection.

Can you explain in detail what is the ''good connection'' that will be needed to play SH5.


Nonsense, I guess you can prove this is not a fact:

Internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent millions of people around the world from playing PC games.I guess your ancestors were among those who said that it was NONSENSE that the Germans could to pass through the Ardennes...

NONSENSE... typical French condescension.

[Mikhayl]

Here: http://shop.ubi.com/Prod_ExtDesc.asp?catalogid=994

System requirements
A permanent high speed internet connection and creation of a ubisoft account are required to play this video game at all times.

I guess your ancestors were among those who said that it was NONSENSE that the Germans could to pass through the Ardennes...

NONSENSE... typical French condescension.

:roll::zzz:

[Méo]

And now prove this

Internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent millions of people around the world from playing PC games.is not a fact, and this is nonsense...

[Mikhayl]

And now prove this

is not a fact, and this is nonsense...

No, it's just you being hopelessly obtuse :yawn:

[Ragtag]

The network must somewhere have been efficient because this game has known unprecedented growth & success.

Now if you guys don't want to buy SH5 because it requires an internet connection and you think it should not, it's your choice, but it's another debate than what my point was about.

----

My point was:

Internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent millions of people around the world from playing PC games.

Of course they are efficient now, Blizzard has spent years and loads of money to tweak and maintain the servers. Take a look at some threads from the first years in the WoW forums. I played WoW the first year so i have some idea what i'm talking about.

Another thing is Ubisofts extremely poor support. There has been problems with SH4 online for half a year now and they still haven't bothered to fix that. Not to mention the downtime on their other services. This is the MAIN consern and this is a problem every Ubi customer has to endure from now on because all major titles will include the OSP. There WILL be alot of problems the first year minimum untill they have tweaked the service to optimum for a surtain amount of connections online. Think of all the hundreds of thousands connections that has to be connected at the same time 24 hours a day. It will take a HUGE amount of broadband and it definatly needs some extreme server network globally. Sit down and think about it. And don't compare this to WoW cause their servers are optimum but it did take Blizzard years to get there. The big problem isn't the home connections in general but how Ubisoft are going to set this up, not to mention where. I can imagine how good my ping will be when i'm here in Norway and have to connect to some server in Canada.

If i had 100% thrust in Ubisoft and i was surtain this was going to work well from the start i would have bought their games and give it a shot. But for now i have zero thrust in Ubi and i'm saying this out of my own experiences over the last 20 years in the gaming industry.

[Méo]

No, it's just you being hopelessly obtuse :yawn:

Nice proof !

Probably the kind of proof needed to graduate in your schools..

No wonder so many people around the world hate French. :nope:

[Méo]

I'll buy it, online requirement is not an obstacle for me. Sadly

Same for me, sad that we must now be connected. Nevertheless I was showing that millions of people around the world does that.

[Ragtag]

Same for me, sad that we must now be connected. Nevertheless I was showing that millions of people around the world does that.

Yeah, millions are but the connections are spread over millions of servers. Ubisoft doesn't have a million servers but they do have several million customers ;)

[Mikhayl]

Nice proof !

Probably the kind of proof needed to graduate in your schools..

No wonder so many people around the world hate French. :nope:

Cute.

[Méo]

Yeah, millions are but the connections are spread over millions of servers. Ubisoft doesn't have a million servers but they do have several million customers ;)

If they are unable to handle it, they will be shooting themselves in the foot.

That could have, later, a major impact on their paychecks, not on mine.

[sabretwo]

Funny, internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent 11.5 million people from playing World of Warcraft. :hmmm:

Meo,

Your statement doesn't make sense.

With all due respect, I personally dont give a flying monkey fu%@ about those "11.5 million" that have the luxury of a constant Internet connection. I don't play WoW (or any other multi-player online game) or have any desire to do so.

I do, however, have a desire to play single-player games, like SH5, which in principle shouldn't require any type of Internet connection to operate.

So, YES, my point stands. This UNNECESSARY requirement UBI created EXCLUDES many of us who otherwise would have bought the game the moment it was available.

I do give UBI credit for having some serious balls. This whole gamble they're taking will definately go one way or the other. Either its a brillant move (playing chicken with the customer community) forcing the community to accept a new draconian form of DRM, or it will be a collassal failure (quite possibly costing millions in lost sales and creating long-term ill will).

These UBI execs seem like they'd be more at home at a Vegas craps table than a corporate board room. (Too bad for shareholders...UBI's execs are playing with their chips.)

Hmmmm...Now that I think about it, I wonder what the delta is on December-January 2011 puts for UBI? If I can't play SH5, maybe I can at least make a profit from it. :D

[Ragtag]

If they are unable to handle it, they will be shooting themselves in the foot.

That could have, later, a major impact on their paychecks, not on mine.

They won't be the first to do that :)

[mookiemookie]

Hmmmm...Now that I think about it, I wonder what the delta is on December-January 2011 puts for UBI? If I can't play SH5, maybe I can at least make a profit from it. :D

Unfortunately, no options available for UBSFY:

http://imgur.com/jIbaG.gif

[sabretwo]

Unfortunately, no options available for UBSFY:

Yeah, I saw that too. Nothing tradeable listed on the CBOE web site. I was really hoping they had leap options. My prediction (if they keep the course and if the outrage grows once these games come out) is a massive miss in Q2. A one year leap put would be perfect. (and not too overly painful to get out of if I'm wrong)

Well, there's always short selling. :arrgh!: They're at 2.9 USD with plenty of room to fall!

(BTW...Did anyone notice the beating UBI took the last two quarters?...Ouch! No wonder the eleventh floor is getting desperate!)

[Platapus]

Funny, internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent 11.5 million people from playing World of Warcraft. :hmmm:


You have to understand that Blizzard, just through the monthly subscriptions, earns over $170,000,000 per month! Per month. That is over $2,000,000,000 per year.

That is a lot of money to spend on maintaining servers to ensure reliability.

That's why a WoW server outage is uncommon (but it does happen).

[Sea Demon]

Regardless of all the arguments, I see both points of view. UBIsoft needs to protect their investment, and consumers don't want the DRM for all the reasons listed. Can't blame either side. But the common enemy here is the pirates. UBIsoft is not the enemy here. I hope eventually something can replace a solution like this DRM (online only) application. But for now, it's what we got.

I for one want a SH6 Gato Class in the future. As I totally prefer the Pacific Theater. But there are elements in SH5 I find compelling. I for one will be buying this sim. No doubt about it.

[product]

Hi All,

Just thought I'd add a comment that I have not seen covered yet... the need to remain connected online throughout a game imposes a serious performance penalty on even a high end PC.

Many gamers disable internet functions while playing to avoid this, including me... forgetting about the issues of principal here, what Ubi is doing is causing unecessary stuttering, hangups and potential crashes. Count me out.

[Steeltrap]

Hi All,

Just thought I'd add a comment that I have not seen covered yet... the need to remain connected online throughout a game imposes a serious performance penalty on even a high end PC.

Many gamers disable internet functions while playing to avoid this, including me... forgetting about the issues of principal here, what Ubi is doing is causing unecessary stuttering, hangups and potential crashes. Count me out.

Ah, no, sorry, have to disagree with you here. If you have a multi-core and more RAM than is required for the operating system and peripherals, your PC won't really notice an internet connection in the background.

What might cause issues is the amount of information required to be transferred between you/the server and how that affects gameplay. If it transfers minimal packets, not an issue. If there are issues of synchronisation and/or large data transfers, might be a concern.

I can't imagine it'll require anything greater than small, occasional data exchanges, which will have no effect on a modern PC. If they screw up this aspect and haven't coded for multi-threading and memory management (like Empire Total War, which wasn't released with effect multi-core use and had an abysmal memory leak, especially in Vista) then it will be a disaster.

Mind you, I couldn't have imagined they'd require continuous internet connection, so what do I know.....

[Steeltrap]

Nice proof !

Probably the kind of proof needed to graduate in your schools..

No wonder so many people around the world hate French. :nope:

Well that'll get you a trip to the 'report' button.....

[Takeda Shingen]

Nice proof !

Probably the kind of proof needed to graduate in your schools..

No wonder so many people around the world hate French. :nope:


That's really uncalled for.

The Management

[CaptainHaplo]

Steeltrap,

I have to disagree with you - and here is my reasoning. Sure the traffic itself isn't burdensome. But alot of gamers disconnect from the net with SP games so they can do things like kill AV and firewalls, which CAN when left running seriously degrade gaming performance.

Its not just the connection - but a host of other things that can have an affect.

[Steeltrap]

Steeltrap,

I have to disagree with you - and here is my reasoning. Sure the traffic itself isn't burdensome. But alot of gamers disconnect from the net with SP games so they can do things like kill AV and firewalls, which CAN when left running seriously degrade gaming performance.

Its not just the connection - but a host of other things that can have an affect.

I understand, but I happened to have tested this recently with my rig. I used to do what you're saying, but I have a friend who's a professional (by which I mean self-employed contractor making plenty of $$) computer nerd/programmer/all-round-guru, and he told me it was completely unnecessary on a rig as powerful as mine.

As I posted before, it does depend on you CPU, GPU and RAM plus OS. If you're at the edge of 'required specs' then you're right to say it's a problem. If you have overkill specs, it won't be an issue.

The other variable is what Ubi is doing with that constant connection.

Cheers

[Arclight]

The other variable is what Ubi is doing with that constant connection.
Making sure that you're still connected. :lol:

[onelifecrisis]

Well that'll get you a trip to the 'report' button.....

Same here.

[Onkel Neal]

No, it's just you being hopelessly obtuse :yawn:

No no, not the way to go. Even if you think someone is being obtuse, let them show it, don't label it.




Nice proof !

Probably the kind of proof needed to graduate in your schools..

No wonder so many people around the world hate French. :nope:

Easy there, mate. No need to take shots like that.

[Méo]

Ok, this one is gonna be long but since it looks like I started a scandal, I feel the need to justify my words.

I think you guys are looking at me as an evil DRM supporter, even if I never said that, even if I would have wish another anti-piracy method.

But, unless a major event happens, that will not stop me from enjoying SH5, that's all.

----

So here's what started this drama:

Funny, internet accessibility & reliability don't actually prevent 11.5 million people from playing World of Warcraft. :hmmm:

Here, I talk about internet accessibility & reliability which seems to be an issue, not about DRM, not about Ubisoft servers, not about the connection speed needed, etc.

So what I did, is that I've made a comparison with millions of people around the world using internet for gaming.

----

With all technologies available in 2010, I think internet is pretty accessible.

I speak for the average player when I say:

I think that IF someone can afford the luxury of a Rig that currently runs SH5, AND IF he can afford the luxury of spending time playing it (instead of spending time earning money), HE CAN afford a REASONABLE internet connection, there's no doubt about it in my mind.

If the connection speed needed is too high for the average player, it's another problem.

----

So about the incident now, I admit I overreacted, but I suggest to take a look at his posts BEFORE.

Your point is just nonsense.

Which I take as some sort of offence, he could have simply said that HE did not see the sense.

No, it's just you being hopelessly obtuse :yawn:

Which I take as a greater offence.


Then I said:

Nice proof !

Probably the kind of proof needed to graduate in your schools..

No wonder so many people around the world hate French. :nope:

I think I never took the initiative on my own to insult someone who has not previously shown me disrespect.

----

I think I clearly expressed my opinion, I would have wished something else than DRM, but it will not stop me and I don't think that internet accessibility & reliability is an issue for the majority of people who can afford a Rig to play SH5.

Nevertheless there are other issues about DRM, no doubt about it.

----

I suggest we should move on now.

Sincerely sorry for the inconvenience that all this could have caused.

[sabretwo]

I speak for the average player when I say:

I think that IF someone can afford the luxury of a Rig that currently runs SH5, AND IF he can afford the luxury of spending time playing it (instead of spending time earning money), HE CAN afford a REASONABLE internet connection, there's no doubt about it in my mind.


I don't think you understand my point, Meo. For many of us, IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF CHOICE!!!!

In many of our cases, cost of monthly service is not the issue. (But it may be for those who pay per MB, like many of our European members.) I pay almost $100 per month for satellite Internet at our vacation house in Georgia. Problem is satellite Internet is highly unreliable! If it rains, your screwed. If its too overcast, your screwed. And North Georgia certainly gets its share of those days! Where money is an issue is needing to pay $5,000-$10,000 to have a cable line run out to the house so I can have a stable Internet connection to play a stinking game that shouldn't require it to begin with. Or having to pay $20-$30 per night for Internet access while in a hotel. (Which is about 30-40% of my gaming time.)

Sorry if I sound VERY frustrated by this but I keep hearing people talk about this like we have a choice. :damn:

NEWSFLASH! There is a whole big world out there beyond your neighborhood. In that great big world, there are lots of places that do not have cable or fiber Internet yet and may not for many years to come. And YES, those "hicks" and "pygmies" often have high end computers and even money to buy games. In fact, there are geographically MORE of those places in the world than there are that have high speed wired Internet.

With all respect guys, please stop being _____ and assuming that everybody lives in your apartment building!

(Oops, Sorry Neal, I was going to say obtuse but then I realzed that might be provacative so I just left it blank. :))

[Méo]

Yeah, and that's why I said the average player, I don't think the average player possess a vacation house.

Call me obtuse if you wish, but no matter what will be the solution to fight piracy, it will be impossible to please everyone, there will always have exceptions.

----

Since you're obviously not the average player, I think it would be more appropriate for you to send a e-mail or call Ubisoft at their customer support services division and explain your situation.

----

I think I been clear enough about my opinion and I don't want to spend more time explaining it.

----

Edit: If you don't want to contact their customer support services division, you can always try to send a private message to one of the devs here.

[Gato76]

I was looking at the system requirement for this game and you will need a permanent HIGH SPEED internet connection,so if you are on dial up u are SOL, here is the link http://shop.ubi.com/Prod_ExtDesc.asp?catalogid=994 :down: Ubi u suck

[sabretwo]

Meo,

If I sound emotional about this, like many here, I was really looking forward to this new release. But in one week, this whole DRM thing turned me from a historically loyal UBI supporter into an angry and bitter a**hole.

(Well, maybe I was a little bit of an a**hole before that, but at least I wasn't angry and bitter. :))

Setting all speculation about the World Domination theories and "darker intentions" aside, I do believe that UBI's fear of piracy is largely to blame for this. Although its unknown to what degree that actually has resulted in true loss of sales, I for one would pay $100 for the game if it was good and didn't have this DRM crap. If twice the previous price is the price to pay for UBI's suspected loss to pirates, then fine with me. I'd groan, but pay it. But this draconian DRM business has me on the out.

[Onkel Neal]

Regardless of all the arguments, I see both points of view. UBIsoft needs to protect their investment, and consumers don't want the DRM for all the reasons listed. Can't blame either side. But the common enemy here is the pirates. UBIsoft is not the enemy here. I hope eventually something can replace a solution like this DRM (online only) application. But for now, it's what we got.



You know, exactly. It's a damn shame that instead of trying to stop piracy, or at least lay the blame for the need of copy protection on pirates, so many people rally against the game company. :shifty:

[Onkel Neal]

I don't think you understand my point, Meo. For many of us, IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF CHOICE!!!!

In many of our cases, cost of monthly service is not the issue. (But it may be for those who pay per MB, like many of our European members.) I pay almost $100 per month for satellite Internet at our vacation house in Georgia. Problem is satellite Internet is highly unreliable! If it rains, your screwed. If its too overcast, your screwed. And North Georgia certainly gets its share of those days! Where money is an issue is needing to pay $5,000-$10,000 to have a cable line run out to the house so I can have a stable Internet connection to play a stinking game that shouldn't require it to begin with. Or having to pay $20-$30 per night for Internet access while in a hotel. (Which is about 30-40% of my gaming time.)

Sorry if I sound VERY frustrated by this but I keep hearing people talk about this like we have a choice. :damn:

NEWSFLASH! There is a whole big world out there beyond your neighborhood. In that great big world, there are lots of places that do not have cable or fiber Internet yet and may not for many years to come. And YES, those "hicks" and "pygmies" often have high end computers and even money to buy games. In fact, there are geographically MORE of those places in the world than there are that have high speed wired Internet.

With all respect guys, please stop being _____ and assuming that everybody lives in your apartment building!

(Oops, Sorry Neal, I was going to say obtuse but then I realzed that might be provacative so I just left it blank. :))

Thanks, I think... :03:

Seriously, we know this is going to be a problem for some people, just like it was when SH3 came out on a DVD and so many cried "I ain't got no DVD playerrrr!!??!!"

Between me and you, I would prefer the game comes with Steam only, or at the most, online to activate and then it looks for an online connection to verify. I also wish I did not need to password protect my online bank account, but if I don't some scumbag will steal my $$.

[Onkel Neal]

I was looking at the system requirement for this game and you will need a permanent HIGH SPEED internet connection,so if you are on dial up u are SOL, here is the link http://shop.ubi.com/Prod_ExtDesc.asp?catalogid=994 :down: Pirates, u suck

Fixed.

Not sure (because I have not seen the game yet) but you may be able to play with less than high speed...

Will customers need to upgrade their Internet connection to broadband speed?
No. We've made sure that the game is playable even with the lowest (A)DSL connections.

[THE_MASK]

You know, exactly. It's a damn shame that instead of trying to stop piracy, or at least lay the blame for the need of copy protection on pirates, so many people rally against the game company. :shifty:
So whats the solution regarding SH5 then ?

[Steeltrap]

You know, exactly. It's a damn shame that instead of trying to stop piracy, or at least lay the blame for the need of copy protection on pirates, so many people rally against the game company. :shifty:

True, but there has to be a better way than forcing constant internet connection for a 1 player game.

Periodic online verification? OK, can understand that.

No off-line play mode between repeat verifications?
Really, really stupid and insufferably intrusive (what a lovely piece of alliteration :D).

Cheers

p.s. pirates are thieves, pure and simple. One big problem is that nobody EVER reports people they know to be pirates. There's an odd moral code that says "when a friend breaks the law they don't really break the law". It's not a code to which I subscribe, but this sort of 'tribal thinking' is a significant root cause of many injustices i.e. it is inherently in conflict with the concept of a rule of law in which all are equal.

Phew. Off the soap box now....

[Méo]

Periodic online verification? OK, can understand that.

Yeah, I agree, this would probably be the best solution.

I would be curious to know their response on this. :hmmm:

[sabretwo]

You know, exactly. It's a damn shame that instead of trying to stop piracy, or at least lay the blame for the need of copy protection on pirates, so many people rally against the game company. :shifty:

True, the pirates may have created the situation. But UBI chose to go overboard in their solution.



I also wish I did not need to password protect my online bank account, but if I don't some scumbag will steal my $$. True, but your bank doesn't require you to come in during office hours every time you need to make a withdrawl and do a live biometric scan. You do have the convenience of using your ATM card and pin.

It's all an issue of balance. There are many ways to address the piracy issue without getting draconian with your customers. (Steam, raise prices to compensate for loss, incentivize legitimate purchase, etc.)




Between me and you, I would prefer the game comes with Steam only, or at the most, online to activate and then it looks for an online connection to verify.

This is the part that vexes me. To my knowledge, Steam works. Having the game phone home once in a blue moon to verify legitimacy, I have no problem with that. I think most of us here would be okay with that. It's the constant connection business that is the deal breaker for a lot of us. Even folks with the crappiest Internet can play Steam games.

The pirates may have provoked all this, but UBI made the conscious choice to shut us out when there were many other less exclusive options out there.

Neal, frame it up however you like, but at the end of the day, the choice to make constant connection a requirement falls squarely on UBI. They went way too far.

Don't use a bomb to put out a fire in your living room.

[Onkel Neal]

So whats the solution regarding SH5 then ?

No real solution, mate. It stinks but it's just becoming a fact of life. I will repeat my opinion, that if this or any copy protection does not shut out 100% of piracy, they should scrap it immediately. But if it does manage to work, then I can live with it knowing that everyone playing SH5 or any game has paid for it just like me.


True, but there has to be a better way than forcing constant internet connection for a 1 player game.

Periodic online verification? OK, can understand that.

No off-line play mode between repeat verifications?
Really, really stupid and insufferably intrusive (what a lovely piece of alliteration :D).

Cheers

p.s. pirates are thieves, pure and simple. One big problem is that nobody EVER reports people they know to be pirates. There's an odd moral code that says "when a friend breaks the law they don't really break the law". It's not a code to which I subscribe, but this sort of 'tribal thinking' is a significant root cause of many injustices i.e. it is inherently in conflict with the concept of a rule of law in which all are equal.

Phew. Off the soap box now....


I know, periodic online verification would be a better compromise, I agree. I suppose the pirates can get around it too easily if it is periodic online verification :wah:

And yeah, I know a lot of pirates. No, not the pure evil kind who spend time and energy developing the cracks, but regular good people who cannot afford or would rather not spend the $ to buy, and rationalize it with homilies like "if I like the game, I always buy it". Right, whatever. In all honesty, probably every one of us has played a game or two (or 200) without buying it, so I am not throwing stones. But I can sure see why Ubisoft and other game companies want to stop that. And I can live with that. It is their property until the person forks over the $$ to play. Until then, no pay, no play.

Someone told me, "yes, but if the pirates cannot crack it, they still won't buy it." Well, if the pirates cannot crack it, then all games will adopt the copy protection and then the pirates won't play anything without paying for it. If thieves try to break into my house in order to steal my stuff, and I put on some locks that keep them out, you are correct, they won't knock on my door and ask to buy my stuff. But they sure won't be stealing my stuff, that's all I care about. :arrgh!: (There, Letum, is an analogy).

[onelifecrisis]

In all honesty, probably every one of us has played a game or two (or 200) without buying it, so I am not throwing stones.

I haven't. Hand on heart, I swear to... whatever you like... God if you want... that I've bought every single game I've played, no exceptions.

So... can I throw stones now? :D

[Onkel Neal]

True, but your bank doesn't require you to come in during office hours every time you need to make a withdrawl and do a live biometric scan.

Yeah? If the bank thieves are able to easily crack people's pin codes and steal their money--yes, you would have to come in every time you need to make a withdrawl and do a live biometric scan. And you would be glad to do it! :D



This is the part that vexes me. To my knowedge, Steam works. Having the game phone home once in a blue moon to verify legitimacy, I have no problem with that. I think most of us here would be okay with that. It's the constant connection business that is the deal breaker for a lot of us. Even folks with the crappiest Internet can play Steam games.

The pirates may have provoked all this, but UBI made the conscious choice to shut us out when there were many other less exclusive options out there.

Neal, this does fall on UBI.


Either Ubi wants to run their own Steam system (not sure that's smart), or they have heard that Steam games are cracked on Day 1 (everyone claims this).

sabre, I say it falls on pirates, but we can disagree here, and I am not going to try and talk you out of your position. :salute:

I haven't. Hand on heart, I swear to... whatever you like... God if you want... that I've bought every single game I've played, no exceptions.

So... can I throw stones now? :D

Lol, yeah, but the problem is, who to throw them at? :D That's one reason why the rules here ask that we don't discuss pirated games, so no one feels pressured to come forward and get stoned...

[GoldenRivet]

Lol, yeah, but the problem is, who to throw them at? :D

Slow children

:woot:

[sabretwo]

True, but there has to be a better way than forcing constant internet connection for a 1 player game.

Periodic online verification? OK, can understand that.

No off-line play mode between repeat verifications?
Really, really stupid and insufferably intrusive (what a lovely piece of alliteration :D).

Cheers

p.s. pirates are thieves, pure and simple. One big problem is that nobody EVER reports people they know to be pirates. There's an odd moral code that says "when a friend breaks the law they don't really break the law". It's not a code to which I subscribe, but this sort of 'tribal thinking' is a significant root cause of many injustices i.e. it is inherently in conflict with the concept of a rule of law in which all are equal.

Phew. Off the soap box now....

Well articulated, Steeltrap...almost prosaic. :|\\

[Steeltrap]

....so no one feels pressured to come forward and get stoned...

You sure you don't want to rephrase that?

(I can hear it now: "I didn't inhale")

:D

[SubV]

I'm a computer engineer. The basic rule of reliability of complex systems says: "Every system is only as reliable as its weakest link".

Speaking of standard single player game, we have two major factors that affect overall reliability: a computer hardware and game software.

In addition to that, SH5 will introduce two new factors: a stability of your internet connection AND reliability of server-side technology. And I consider these new factors as weakest part of whole system.

[JScones]

You know, exactly. It's a damn shame that instead of trying to stop piracy, or at least lay the blame for the need of copy protection on pirates, so many people rally against the game company. :shifty:
Yes, because game publishers certainly have no ulterior motives at all with implementing this technology...

Take-Two has said that it is getting more and more frustrated by second hand sales in stores like GameStop and GameStation, according to GI.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/take-two-frustrated-by-second-hand-sales).

As such, the publisher said, it is increasingly moving towards online authentication systems to try and combat second-hand sales, as well as releasing DLC that encourages players to keep hold of their games.

Second-hand sales have long been a contentious issue for the industry as although they push up sales figures and profits for the stores, the publishers and developers accrue no extra profit from them.

"GameStop continues to aggressively push their used game business, which is having a meaningful negative impact on sales of new games," noted analyst Doug Creutz after consulting with Take-Two CEO Ben Feder.

"Management is frustrated with this trend and is examining ways to ameliorate the problem, which includes strategies around online play and downloadable content which extend the lifespan of AAA titles.”

If one of the ways that the company hopes to eliminate second-hand sales is by linking games into online systems like Games for Windows Live and Rockstar Social Club however then we’ll be sorely disappointed.Not much concern here from Take-Two about pirates, but God damn those evil game resellers...

[TarJak]

Not much concern here from Take-Two about pirates, but God damn those evil game resellers...Yep nothing worse than those people who think that because they pay for something they own it and can then sell it on to someone else.:haha:

EDIT: Oooh I "own" two copies of SH4, neither of which I paid for (both were gifts). Does that mean I can't sell it on or give it to a needy subsimmer if I so choose?

[THE_MASK]

Yep nothing worse than those people who think that because they pay for something they own it and can then sell it on to someone else.:haha:

EDIT: Oooh I "own" two copies of SH4, neither of which I paid for (both were gifts). Does that mean I can't sell it on or give it to a needy subsimmer if I so choose?
2 copies of uboat addon and a silent hunter 4 mouse pad as gifts .

[Adriatico]

True, but there has to be a better way than forcing constant internet connection for a 1 player game.

Periodic online verification? OK, can understand that.

No off-line play mode between repeat verifications?
Really, really stupid and insufferably intrusive (what a lovely piece of alliteration :D).



+1 ... Ubi, it's time to wake up and use brain !

[martes86]

You know, exactly. It's a damn shame that instead of trying to stop piracy, or at least lay the blame for the need of copy protection on pirates, so many people rally against the game company. :shifty:

I won't ever blame companies for using anti-piracy measures, as long as they don't screw me up, like what happened with Starforce (overdrove one of my DVD drives, now it won't stop making noise), or like it's going to happen with OSP (which takes my right to play offline alone and anonimously off the window).

Seriously, they can put Securom or whatever they want in it. I don't care about it if it doesn't bother me or my rig. But OSP ain't good, just like Starforce wasn't either.

Cheers. :rock:

[JScones]

I remember Securom now - for that very brief period that I had SH4 installed. I remember now that every second time I tried to load SH4 I got some Securom error saying my disc was unreadable.

I remember now that it was one of the contributing factors to SH4 being removed from my hard drive so quickly.

[Stiebler]

My wife just drew to my attention the fact that, if I am continuously connected for hours to Ubisoft to play SH5, then she is not going to be able to do any internet shopping.

No one else seems to have mentioned this disadvantage anywhere.
Thinks.....

Is that an advantage or a disadvantage?

I cannot resist also noting the irony that, while browsing this very thread just two days ago (1 Feb, 10am London Time, 5am US Eastern Time), the SubSim web-site froze with a 'Database Error'. Perhaps while the server was being serviced/maintained.

That clearly is a disadvantage to the 'play always connected' theme, as others have already noted. But it's always useful to be able to cite actual examples.

Stiebler.

[Adriatico]

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1494/drmy.jpg

Keep your PC and family - yours...
:dead:

[Brag]

Five stars! :haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:

Moo

[Arclight]

^ :rotfl2:

-------

Stiebler, I think playing SH5 while your wife empties your wall.. *cough* I mean, does some shopping online, is not going to be an issue. There should be very little traffic between the game and the server, same is true for the shopping.

Would be a different story if you were playing a multiplayer game, or have a download going in the background; those can definitely interfere with other connections.



But the game isn't out yet, so don't take my word for it. That's just how it should be. :doh:

[Jotte]

For every corporate anti-piracy device there is a plenthora of willing hackers to take up the challange of showing them their Titanic is indeed sinkable.
If the trend of this DRM continous like this the next step will be that you have to pay a fee each time you start a session in your single player game.
Getting punished as a consumer under the pretence that its the piracys fault they have to do this is akin to limiting cars to not be able to go faster then 100 km/h because of all those that speed....

[urfisch]

this topic makes me...

:yawn:

[martes86]

I remember Securom now - for that very brief period that I had SH4 installed. I remember now that every second time I tried to load SH4 I got some Securom error saying my disc was unreadable.

I remember now that it was one of the contributing factors to SH4 being removed from my hard drive so quickly.

I said Securom for it being one of the most well-known systems. Truth is, that ever since Starforce, I've lost track of what anty-copy systems are currently being used, but surely I could have used any other name, and it'd still sound right. My point was that, almost anything is preferred instead of OSP. :)

[Onkel Neal]

My wife just drew to my attention the fact that, if I am continuously connected for hours to Ubisoft to play SH5, then she is not going to be able to do any internet shopping.

No one else seems to have mentioned this disadvantage anywhere.
Thinks.....

Is that an advantage or a disadvantage?

I cannot resist also noting the irony that, while browsing this very thread just two days ago (1 Feb, 10am London Time, 5am US Eastern Time), the SubSim web-site froze with a 'Database Error'. Perhaps while the server was being serviced/maintained.

That clearly is a disadvantage to the 'play always connected' theme, as others have already noted. But it's always useful to be able to cite actual examples.

Stiebler.

You're a modder, maybe you can mod the game so everytime you sink something, a popup appears with ebay sale items for your wife to choose from? :DL

[evan82]

Now it has been officially confirmed by an Ubisoft employee in the German SH5 forum, SH5 will contain exactly this new protection:

- you need an Ubisoft online account to activate SH5
- Save games be stored online on Ubisoft server
- PC must be throughout the playing session connected to the internet

Maybe I'll try to survive this by playing in SH3.:yawn:

[The Enigma]

Reading through the replies I seems to me that the discussion is focussed on having an reliable internet connection or not.
Frankly I don't believe that is the bottom line and only issue being discussed at this forum.

Let me try to summarize the 3 major issues being discussed:

Issue 1:
The issue is not having or lacking such connection, it's about needing such connection when you want to play the game or while playing the game.

Issue 2:
Mandatory saving you games online.

Issue 3:
The content of the game.


For me are issue 1 and 2 of more importance then issue 3.
Issue 3 I can only judge about after having played the game.

Which issue someone else bothers the most is up to him/her.

Why are many ppl blaming UBI?
In my opinion is this because UBI punishes the legal gamers instead of the pirates. And that's unfair, the least to say.

Also:
UBI is an easier target to blame than those anonymous pirates.
It's a predictable reaction.

[Armistead]

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/pirates.jpg

[Seeadler]

In 2003 we had here in Germany an anti-piracy campaign with this poster:know:

http://blogs.taz.de/wp-inst/wp-content/blogs.dir/10/files/2006/12/raubkopierer_09.jpg

He says:
"I will never use pirate copies, I'd rather chase me a bullet through my head"

[Gato76]

Interesting read about DRM. link http://savygamer.co.uk/2010/02/01/digital-rights-and-wrongs-the-state-of-drm/

[evan82]

In 2003 we had here in Germany an anti-piracy campaign with this poster:know:

http://blogs.taz.de/wp-inst/wp-content/blogs.dir/10/files/2006/12/raubkopierer_09.jpg

He says:
"I will never use pirate copies, I'd rather chase me a bullet through my head"
Yes, but in this case, bullet was alredy fired, and not in the pirates.:down:

[Kresge]

Wow. This news is really a downer. A buddy of mine, we were roommates back in the old SH2 days, is an avid (I'd say addicted) SHIII player. In fact I just got a patrol report from him this morning. This is going to crush him.

Personally, I think online authentication is overkill, but I have a cable connection 24/7 and it doesn't interfere much. My buddy, however, does not have cable and does not have an internet connection. Why? Despite Neal's comment, he does not live in a double-wide, but simply can't afford it. Now he's going to have to decide whether to shell out for an internet connection with his already stretched budget. That's just !@#$%

[Kresge]

Oh, and furthermore, the online storage of saved games really worries me since a lot of us get into these sims for years. Is Ubi going to keep maintaining the servers (for free) for years?

[karamazovnew]

Oh, and furthermore, the online storage of saved games really worries me since a lot of us get into these sims for years. Is Ubi going to keep maintaining the servers (for free) for years?

This has been said before but... I have no doubt that after a while a patch will be released to allow us to play offline. Don't forget that Ubi made a patch to remove the need for Starforce. So, there's still hope yet.

As for your friend, yeah, big blow. The actual bandwith used might not be high. I use a mobile phone modem for my laptop and it's actually not that bad. But prices vary from country to country... Anyway, your friend should get internet, not just to play SH5, but to join us on Subsim :salute:

[Kresge]

T... Anyway, your friend should get internet, not just to play SH5, but to join us on Subsim :salute:

Yeah, I tease him endlessly about all the stuff he's missing on the Net and cableTV :DL

[Arclight]

Issue 1:
The issue is not having or lacking such connection, it's about needing such connection when you want to play the game or while playing the game.

Issue 2:
Mandatory saving you games online.

Issue 3:
The content of the game.
Issue 4:
The fact not everyone has a stable connection, or a connection at all. Making it a requirement effectively takes away the option to buy or not from some.

Yes, it's a minority, and no, I'm not part of it. Doesn't mean noone should care about them... Ubi certainly isn't. (yes, I know, business decision)

[The Enigma]

@Arclight
Thank you for your replying.

I wasn't forgetting the problems one (might) experience when the connection isn't stable.

However the reason of needing a stable connection is not the root cause of the problem. It is UBI's decision of needing a connection at all.

When they would drop the need for an online connection when starting up the game or while playing the game, the unstable (or not having access) connections wouldn't be a problem.

Thus in my point of view, is the source of all connection problems described in issue 3.

[Arclight]

Just adding/pointing out the issue I have the most dfficulty with. ;)

I'm not arguing against the other points, I agree wholeheartedly. The issue has been beaten to death though; I'd rather see people taking this up with Ubi directly, instead of complaining on a public board.

That said, I'm sure their inbox is already flooded with these complaints. :lol:

[The Enigma]

I guess too, let's hope they do care about our worries.
Meanwhile, I play SHIII:DL

[Sailor Steve]

No, SH4 is better.

Sorry, couldn't resist - just had to pretend to start another off-topic argument. Everybody look the other way. You didn't see this. I wasn't here blah blah blah blah blah.